Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2022-06-12 | 2022-06-14 → ↓
asciilifeform: phf: not found any useful markings on the rack btw
verisimilitude: I didn't need GDB; I reviewed the program hours later and noticed the flaw.
verisimilitude: Would anyone care to play with the toy I'll be releasing later today?
crtdaydreams: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-12#1102112 << where can I learn more about this in particular?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-12 10:05:24 signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-12#1102031 << this is more/less the nietzschean algo. most people stop with his pronouncement of god being dead, rather than continuing to this.
crtdaydreams: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-12#1102114 << can you elaborate, or point me in the direction of perhaps related /thread
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-12 10:05:42 signpost: question of what's one's relationship to time.
crtdaydreams: I haven't delved into nieztsche, I think perhaps it would be a worthwhile endeavour.
crtdaydreams: I'm at the crossroads between "checking out" or some form of self-betterment. I can't escape my fuckups.
asciilifeform: crtdaydreams: what kinda fuckups?
phf: my pops was a great man, great man. he told me, son, if you're going to fuck, fuck up! what a great man! thank you! try out buffet!
mats: $ticker btc usd
asciilifeform: mats: bot moved to #p
bitbot: (pest) 2022-06-13 busybot[asciilifeform]: Current BTC price in USD: $23544.74
asciilifeform: mats: consider standing up a station, it'll take you < 10min likely
signpost: phf: lol
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-13 13:12:39 asciilifeform: mats: consider standing up a station, it'll take you < 10min likely
signpost: mats: get in pest already
signpost: but before you read anything, decide to be your own ally vs enemy.
signpost: if you can't do that, isn't shit to read that will fix you.
signpost: you live somewhere even further along the emasculation continuum than I do. find the viruses the enemy put between your ears and destroy them.
signpost: then sure, read.
signpost: it was a turning in my own life when I realized that I was doing the enemy's work for him by destroying myself by pieces.
signpost: consider also what it implies that it takes constant practice to destroy oneself.
signpost: we're not as feeble as current religions claim.
verisimilitude: I live further along the emacsulation continuum than anyone else here.
asciilifeform: signpost: asciilifeform aint certain that he agrees w/ 'mp model' behind 'wai redditus is how it is'; entirely possib. that simply comes from 'glue trap' of 'learned helplessness' ( recall in e.g. 'doom' , frustration where 'cannot shoot holes in walls, even with 'bfg''. ) if no avail. action has any visible effect, you get characteristic 'prisoner in solitary' psychology, no physiological problems req'd
signpost: M-x take-hold-of-thine-own-sack
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: how's that?
verisimilitude: Read it carefully, asciilifeform.
signpost: asciilifeform: I think we agree; earlier you said it was unclear how many redditus could be men.
signpost: I'm saying it takes the empire constant reinforcement to enfeeble them.
signpost: odd it takes so much work if they're born trash.
asciilifeform models redditism as a 'soft' variant of alcoholism
signpost considers homo sapiens the species that conquered earth
punkman: when you have certain environmental factors, you get homo redditus
asciilifeform: punkman: asciilifeform suspects that main envir. factor is same as for homo alcoholicus -- 'life in dead end'
punkman: also lack of beatings
asciilifeform: punkman: in orc world, errybody beaten, still drinks
punkman: asciilifeform: are the glue-huffing nigerians a homo redditus?
asciilifeform: punkman: per this model, defo
asciilifeform: for that matter, even marx's 'lumpens'
asciilifeform: 'redditus' simply latest twist on technologially cost-optimized 'bonsai human'
asciilifeform: product of current reich's 'soft, humane' variant of genocide
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-25 13:45:55 asciilifeform: in the most extreme case of this -- say you wanted to live in current reich today w/ same standard of living as e.g. engineer in 1900. would need to spend coupla $mil / y.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-25 19:23:44 asciilifeform: lizards in usa 'solved' the 'unions problem' by getting rid of labour, creating caste of lumpens on left side of bell curve and caste of paper shufflers on right side, with the sleight-of-hand moar than sufficing to ramp down expectations of life for all of'em
asciilifeform: in last century, when plebes demanded to actually win from the gains of industrialization, lizards organized 2 world wars for'em. would've a third, but shat pants; instead retooled to psychoengineering ('bonsaikittening') and the current products of this are the subj on display.
punkman: the glue-huffing congolesan is quite cost-optimized. the homo redditus/NEET/bai-lan seems quite the drag on community resources
asciilifeform: punkman: how's that? reddit victim eats mcfood, lives in equiv. of prison cell typically, and the reddit per se maybe coupla kW-hr/mo.
phf: i don't think that orcs are strictly homo redditus, but asciilifeform is often intentionally not an entomologist, so he lumps everyone useless into same bucket
punkman: perhaps could say redditus is "our-democracy-optimized"
asciilifeform: phf: was thinking specifically of 'finished alcoholic' psychotype, rather than orcs as class
asciilifeform: it being most direct equiv. afaik to western 'redditus'
verisimilitude: I agree asciilifeform has a nasty habit of lumping together the lumpenproles.
asciilifeform finds most interesting what subj have ~in common~ rather than the minutiae of differences
verisimilitude: I remember back in 2020 when Reddit users were making posts from their windows, about those people who dared to go outside; many called the police on them.
asciilifeform: 'life in dead end' is afaik quite similar regardless of where geographically or what kinda dope one takes to make it to n+1st day
phf: asciilifeform: orc is an updated metaphor for barbarian, necessarily doesn't know "latest fashionable ways of wasting time in rome". their respective modes of failure are usually fundamentally different, e.g. cargo cult shaman "works", pilar of community, etc.
verisimilitude: Life in Africa has always been a dead end, then.
verisimilitude: EGO BARBARVS NON SVM
asciilifeform: phf: arguably a community with a functioning shaman is notyet lumpenized
asciilifeform: illustrated in e.g. bmore -- there are (grey-haired) white catholics living in lafond's 'red zone', but very differently from their 'zombie' neighbours
asciilifeform was astonished to discover a working catholic church deep in 'redzone', complete with functioning bells, etc
phf: the creatures that moved into office space in johanesburg, take shit into elevator shafts until full, moved to next place are evidently not redditors on numerours measures and observations (i assume self evident but can be further explored), yet have similar destructive effect on society. if they were closer to rome, would've all had iphones, pacified, working for ngos to create ubuntu for everyone
phf: not sure where this conversation is going though :> it's hot, and my basement office is not ready yet :D
phf: but i had some other comment
asciilifeform: per asciilifeform's model, they're 'redditors' in the sense where knocked outta whatever traditional social fabric, and for oddball 'modern' reasons no one could spare for'em a bullet, so instead 'feral'
asciilifeform: phf: re hot office, 'great lakes' co apparently sells very similar rack to asciilifeform's, about 1k$
asciilifeform still in old office, where fat window ac transforms 'deadly hot' to merely 'painfully loud'
phf: asciilifeform: you're probably not familiar with specific events i'm refering to. in this case tribals are firmly in the traditional social fabric, i'm not talking obama job creation, they drifted from hills towards green pastures, which is their way, but "no one could spare for'em a bullet" ("we can it zimbabwe now don't we?" -- blood diamonds), so simply .. moved in into offices and administrative buildings. "at first we called the
phf: cops, but cops told us they can't do anything"
phf: *we call it
phf: let me dig up an old lj post on subject, obviously only person who can write about things like that is a russian tourist :D
asciilifeform: afaik the only directly analogous thing in usa for these is the forest animals increasingly seen in city (coyote etc)
punkman: asciilifeform: redditus not necessarily poor. redditus is why we have sex change industry. the mcfood sucks in huge amounts of resources for R&D and also converts perfectly good food into mcbooger.
punkman: ecological disaster
asciilifeform: punkman: mcfood is largely exercise in r&d of 'how to make'em eat petroleum at max effic.'
asciilifeform: the 'sex changes' (along w/ related psychopharma) r&d in psychopharma-powered pacification. ultimately aimed to reduce cost of warehousing herd.
punkman: there's still perfectly good beef. the fake beef has sort of failed to convince even the redditus, plus hugely expensive to make.
phf: asciilifeform: original post on subj, but https://tannen.livejournal.com/66587.html if you search йоха.. site:livejournal.com plenty of similar first person accounts, and elaboratons. unfiltered.
asciilifeform: punkman: iirc latest 'cutting edge' is 100% synthetic 'beef'
asciilifeform: phf: ty, will read
asciilifeform: phf: interesting, reminiscent of (believe or not) english folx in 2010s writing from subj, 'unamusement park' etc. (iirc kaput when author beaten to death 'accidentally' in police station, after which ~0 engl. output re subj afaik)
asciilifeform recalls south afr. megabestseller -- side-firing flamethrower for auto
punkman: asciilifeform: "sex change victim" is goldmine. I don't see how it reduces any cost whatsoever
asciilifeform: punkman: 'reduces cost' in re not need world war to 'recycle' the 'surplus' males
phf: but this actually ties nicely into the other comment i was goign to make http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-13#1106243 pretty sure last round of lizards self-destructed in the process. i'm reading this book "anglo-american establishment" by caroll quigley, an american professor from georgetownu exploring a real world conspiracy by cecil rhodes and variety of similar characters in shaping of english foreign policy
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-13 14:16:28 asciilifeform: in last century, when plebes demanded to actually win from the gains of industrialization, lizards organized 2 world wars for'em. would've a third, but shat pants; instead retooled to psychoengineering ('bonsaikittening') and the current products of this are the subj on display.
phf: 1880-1945 or so. if you can get through minutia on which hopeful married which lords daughter after being picked from which oxford club and who his uncle was, then can clearly see that yes indeed, but what i find curious about the book is how most dates on initiatives, projects, groups, etc are upper bound at 1945.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 15:20:01 asciilifeform: gregory5: asciilifeform was not able to stomach quigley, on acct. of critical mass of howlers in text, so cannot comment in detail
asciilifeform: post-'45 evidently reorg in anglo aristocracy but not well-documented afaik anywhere.
asciilifeform: there's a popular notion that current angloreich is 'rudderless' but asciilifeform not subscribes.
asciilifeform: 'nature abhors vacuum' etc
phf: there was thread, i don't recall details, something like "lizards were trying to put stop to progress, but got blindsided by transistor". i suspect not so much rudderless, but something like ru 90s: kgb still there, but lost reins, thing with reins after the initial confusion can pick them up, but before you do, all kinds of events might transpire, might be accidentally yelling whoa to stop, while kicking in the ribs, because panic or
phf: whatever.
phf: there's something to be said about communication lines, during rhodes times the guy with fastest comms was at the top of the hierarchy, because could afford "i need this message delivered to lord grosvenor who is on a diplomatic mission in paraguay". we're at peak "grosvenor's buttler knows before grosvenor does" right now, which is historically unprecedented, i suspect it requires more than just simple tweaks
asciilifeform: phf: re transistor, was a series of attempts by asciilifeform to summarize (imho persuasive) thesis of alex rosov
asciilifeform: ( fella however sadly long ago went off rails )
phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-13#1106287 << yeah i looked at thread, i don't know anything about quigley otherwise, had to look up who he was for message above. i've long been on rhodesia kick, so i've been reading whatever historic material to put it in context. south africa funded the last plays by the english lordship, and then it all suddenly stopped. yohanesburg now.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-13 14:46:31 asciilifeform: prev. quigley thrd fwiw
asciilifeform still not 100% understand precisely who and how disassembled 'immune system' of south afr; but difficult to see how it was anyffin other than an organized, deliberate demolition, with clear purpose of removing potential competitor of reich
asciilifeform: afaik there was a certain measure of gorby-style internal betrayal involved
phf: south africa is round 2, first round was rhodesia where immune system worked. it was collective will of the international kommuniti that directly translated into funding of the guerillas (by both the soviets, the americans and the brits. huh.)
phf: i mean rhodesian bush war lasted 15 years
asciilifeform: lived for surprisingly long time aha
phf: well among other things it presented all kinds of uncomfortable questions "what if we put a bunch of anglos on mars, probably will eat dirt like martians, ooops, seem to be building prosperous civilization, shut it down shut it down"
asciilifeform suspects prime mover there was 'simple as hammer' -- 'easier & cheaper to vacuum up strategic minerals from place fulla warring pygmies than from 'living fossil' strong country run by whites runaway from 1800s'
asciilifeform: aha, 'shut it down!1' etc
phf: ian smith's autobiography has the perfect title to sum it up "the great betrayal"
asciilifeform: arguably rhodesia opening shot of current-day 'controlled chaos doctrine'
asciilifeform: key principal of reich is 'outside the reich walls, must be a cannibal zone always, never functioning industrial civ'
asciilifeform: *principle
asciilifeform: hence demolition of e.g. libya & co
phf: yeah, that's why i find it to be particularly interesting. it's a prototype for all kinds later developments, that we sometimes think spontaneously appeared in the last couple of years or something.
asciilifeform: picture if today there were a rhodesia, hypothetically for folx to defect to
asciilifeform: that, imho is the main 'threat model' from which pov reich methodically sets fire to its periphery
phf: sometimes you hear an argument that hitler destroyed anglo world, because made talk of anglo separatism into a dog whistle. but ian smith was already raceeees before wwii, so things don't quite add up time wise. the strategy was already there.
asciilifeform: 'На момент отмены апартеида, в ЮАР существовала своя космическая программа. Страна обладала ядерными технологиями и оружием. В ЮАР, впервые в мире произвели пересадку сердца. В настоящее время космическая и ядерная программа свер
asciilifeform: нуты, ученые, как и половина белого населения сбежали из страны.' << >> 'at the moment of cancellation of apartheid, south a. had its own space program. the country possessed nuclear tech and weapons. in south a. the 1st heart transplant in the world was carried out. today the space and atomic programmes are closed, the scientists , along with half of the white popul
asciilifeform: ation, have fled the country...' etc
asciilifeform: last thing reich wanted was a living competitor with complete set of functioning collective balls, space + atomic programme, etc. late sovok happily joined in to cut off oxygen
asciilifeform suspects 'animal instinct' of 'ephialtes effect' strongly in play
dulapbot: (trilema) 2014-10-06 asciilifeform: this is the basic 'ephialtes' logic of the retardation in question.
dulapbot: (trilema) 2015-01-03 ascii_modem: ephialtes doesnt care abou straightening own back - knows it's a fantasy - but happy to turn everyone else into hunchback.
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-13#1106299 Have a fun fact: The movement against apartheid was overwhelmingly Jewish. The Jews in Hollywood don't use Mel Gibson to make movies about how fucking evil the South Africans are either, now do they? I don't hear about South Africa much at all now, even.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-13 14:59:25 asciilifeform: still not 100% understand precisely who and how disassembled 'immune system' of south afr; but difficult to see how it was anyffin other than an organized, deliberate demolition, with clear purpose of removing potential competitor of reich
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: funnily enuff didn't prevent a il/za atomic collaboration
verisimilitude: Yes, but now only one stands, conveniently.
asciilifeform: sorta stands, on 1leg, while usg continues to pump moolah
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: il aint a 'world power', or even a 'has-been' like e.g. france; is simply a resort for reich soldiers to get laid during breaks from controlled-chaos wars in near east
verisimilitude: Now IL is Israel, right?
asciilifeform: il -- israel, za -- south afr.
verisimilitude: As figured.
verisimilitude: They certainly claim to be a ``has-been''.
asciilifeform thought was commonly understood
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: and in mexico you'll find folx who claim continuation of aztlan, lol
verisimilitude: My last sentence explains why I wanted to be certain.
verisimilitude: Israel receives more aid from the US than anything else, so through AIPAC and the like could be considered to be a world power.
asciilifeform: it's a reich outpost.
asciilifeform: similar to e.g taiwan
verisimilitude: Who's whose puppet?
verisimilitude: Taiwan didn't get to have nukes.
asciilifeform: lizards aint geographically seated, verisimilitude . haven't been for ~century
verisimilitude: They're ideologically seated.
asciilifeform: nuke, as it happens, 'aint errything'; za's ~20 nukes didn't help it, just as sovok's ~4000 didn't in '91
asciilifeform: sumbody's gotta find a target, and pull trigger
asciilifeform: where aim ?
verisimilitude: Anyway, I should probably use my daily typing tolerance for my work today.
punkman: translation of russian blog worked surprisingly well. fun post.
punkman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cew-BnjA_q4 << ghouls in SA spreading all over the country. the whites surprised that they reached their newer, further from Jo'burg suburbs and towns.
punkman: bunch of folks in a car going around and shooting looters with rubber bullets. top kek.
punkman: or group standing on side of street to defend their shops, leader saying "if they come here don't pick fight, just tell them go loot across street, leave us alone"
crtdaydreams: don't have spare vps just lyin' around, current one atm running webshit, so not ideal
crtdaydreams: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-13#1106199 << the kind would not shout into public void, small things that sum to the personification of a "fuckup"
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-13 10:23:49 asciilifeform: crtdaydreams: what kinda fuckups?
crtdaydreams: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-13#1106211 << i like this a lot, very layered piece, gets the gears turning.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-13 13:30:14 signpost: crtdaydreams: http://trinque.org/2022/03/31/deadlock/
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-13#1106354 << must emphasize, the irc component in pest is pointedly ~not~ for to have remote link b/w the box you type into and the pestron. for elementary reason of the irc protocol per se giving 0 security of any kind
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-13 16:08:19 crtdaydreams: re-reading pest spec for *nth time. is it best not to run on home net and opt instead for sandboxen vps?
asciilifeform: ... irc is there strictly because nobody atm has time to write ui coad.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-06 13:48:07 asciilifeform: included the irc knobs so as to remove 'blocking' problem of writing clients, guis, etc. but is certainly possible to drive a pestron via a dedicated interface w/out ircism
asciilifeform: and so, ideally the box which runs the pestron oughta be the one you type into. ( can use e.g. 'screen' over ssh to operate a remote pestron, but if you were to use it as plain irc server, anyone can snoop yer wot keys, and the login pw per se, and operate yer station whenever )
crtdaydreams is aware of this, was more on tack with obeying principles of "no info the observer"
asciilifeform: crtdaydreams: if you simply want to relay packets at a remote box, iirc phf recently posted a bsdism for doing this
crtdaydreams: link plox
phf is also curious, does not remember
crtdaydreams: will probably not use as sandboxen running www as aforementioned, but main gist of the q was whether or not running pestron on home boxen is considered "safe practice"
crtdaydreams: you've answered sufficiently though
asciilifeform: was in a recent bsd thrd, can't find for sumreason atm
asciilifeform: crtdaydreams: 'home box' is precisely the intended place, esp. after nat headaches permanently put to rest
crtdaydreams: on that note, was wondering if pest spec would work with "traditional" irc bouncers with a mod
asciilifeform: crtdaydreams: theoretically oughta work w/ e.g. znc. but see above.
asciilifeform: ( whai have sslism idjicy in the mix, when dun have to ?? )
crtdaydreams: righto
crtdaydreams: ip/port same for dulapnet as for #pest?
asciilifeform: you can have remote link b/w pestron and the box into which typing, currently, but will consist inescapably of brittle heathen pseudocrypto
asciilifeform: crtdaydreams: #pest dun exist as a public irctron, the ircism is emulated by yer station
asciilifeform: if read spec, oughta know this
phf: ^ "Traditional IRC offers no provisions for secure authentication or encryption; hence, it is recommended that a Pest station and its IRC client reside in one physical machine. Alternatively, they may run on separate machines and connect via an SSH tunnel or similar mechanism."
crtdaydreams has sworn read pest spec like 5 times, but done nothing w/ info and not "fit in head" (i.e. print out and read)
crtdaydreams: possib only way will fit-in-head (and stay there) would be to write own pestron
phf: crtdaydreams: you def need better hobbies XD
crtdaydreams: phf: whaddya mean?
crtdaydreams: I was told same thing by person afk yesterday
phf: republic is dead communiques are no longer sacred scrolls to be passed down the generations. if i didn't attempt to implement parts of would not get past first paragraph, with appologies to asciilifeform
phf: crtdaydreams: well, for example riding horses is a lot more fun than reading network protocol specifications. it's a complicated skill, that both engages mind and body in novel ways, that also has pleasant primary effects, like being able to make a giant animal do things. on the other hand reading specs is the opposite of riding horses.
crtdaydreams: phf: I don't think there is any other way to put this, it's not a matter of "don't have time," evidently spend enuff hours talking on here, it's more like "don't have energy." Working 10hr days and then just maintaining existence (meat chores, bills etc) takes it out of ya. Then classic "grass is greener on other side" parable. So any existing spare time is sucked into
crtdaydreams: unproductive behaviour. Is the best thing I can do to simply gtfo of the way?
crtdaydreams: yucky word vomit
phf: crtdaydreams: you have kids?
phf: why are you workin 10hr days then
crtdaydreams: To honor my father and perhaps give him a chance of retirement due to my fuckups.
phf: for some reason read that in jackir aprile jr.'s voice
crtdaydreams: summary would be "karen took the kids"
phf: 10hr work days are a minimax, if you're not junior analyst at goldman with a prospect to retire in 5 years by working 16 hr days 10 hr is usually a bad deal
crtdaydreams living it; is fully aware of this
phf: if i were you, i'd optimize for "what is the least amount of work i can do for max amount of compensation and still live", and then having attained that stable platform move from there, having a significantly opened up opportunity space
phf: but i've also noticed that when somebody says "my fuck ups" somehere there followed by "my father" usually end up like jackie aprile jr, because in love with own cockroaches too much. no idea if that applies to you, not knowing your situation, but usually people are in bad situations because they have the kind of obligations that require them to transcend some kind of pricinples, e.g. fuck my kids i'm moving to oaxaca, mex. can also go
phf: in the opposite direction "if i change something, will have to throw out this old computer chair, tell my chuck'e'cheese boss i'm leaving, will break his heart"
crtdaydreams: I'm currently being paid more than over9000 other individuals in my age bracket, I'm not complaining, it comes at the cost of 8-6, I am probably doing the least amount of work to live comfortably with $$$ to spare, not living on 2min noodles, not in debt to uni etc.
phf: and so it starts, i will excuse myself from this conversation :)
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-13#1106389 << afaik 100% of the folx who req'd the 'sacred' loong ago packed up. today remain the ones who a) find the pertinent mechanical problems interesting per se b) low-key aligned in pertinent direction w/out deliberate ideological massage.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-13 16:35:40 phf: republic is dead communiques are no longer sacred scrolls to be passed down the generations. if i didn't attempt to implement parts of would not get past first paragraph, with appologies to asciilifeform
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-19 11:19:42 asciilifeform: signpost: re 'why pest' -- asciilifeform is a btc aficionado of the (nearly extinct, possib.) old school -- would like to live in world where can get paid in uninflating, untaxable coinz, and buy necessities of live in same. doubt that anyone living nao will live to see such thing, but asciilifeform specifically interested in work which could make it at least conceivable.
asciilifeform: ... likely to considerable surprise from phf's pov, these already baked 2 reasonably-complete pestrons
asciilifeform: ( 'why did they do it? aint it moar fun to ride jet, fly horse ?' )
asciilifeform warned on multiple occasions that 'we dun have worldrevolution(tm) on the menu, if that's the product yer shopping for, plz try next door'
phf: asciilifeform: i don't know if i care to engage this subthread either, i'm sorry. but to the point where you put words in my mouth (or head), i was wondering why one reads the spec 5 times without doing anything with it
crtdaydreams is simply going to shut. cannot explain current situation to any meaningful extent, not suffering from "rich kid syndrome" nor "love for cockroaches" (honor my father was poor wording and a miscommunication), nor habitus redditus.
asciilifeform: optional thread, but phf invited, lol, with (not even unreasonable) q of 'wai fuck with bits, eat, drink, be merry, horse' etc
asciilifeform: asciilifeform does not offer in product catalogue a canned answer for this q; 'if you gotta ask'(tm)(r) etc
phf: asciilifeform: i didn't ask that question, your bringing it in from previous conversation. i repeat, i asked "why would you read spec 5 times and not do anything with it"
asciilifeform: also reasonable q
asciilifeform: what possessed fella to read spec? presumably found interesting in context.
phf: asciilifeform: that's a self serving presumption, i can postulate a number of other, less flattering ones :p
asciilifeform often surprised at mail from entirely random folx, who somehow found themselves reading e.g. ffa
asciilifeform: phf: i've genuinely nfi why. in #a log you will not find mp-style 'if you dun read pestspec, yer a lamer, slice lengthwise, manlet' etc
asciilifeform: fwiw asciilifeform concedes that current spec aint a ripper of a time reading. is adhoc, verbose, and in places laughably incomplete description of what oughta be pretty simple mechanism.
phf: asciilifeform: you can indirectly though. plenty of "they doing it wong", which by implication makes what is done here "right", no?
asciilifeform: phf: 'newton method' attempt at converging to 'right'
asciilifeform: nobody forced to agree, observe, however. folx who 'the correct way to chat is aol' know where to find aol.
phf: asciilifeform: ah, i got it, it's that thing signpost tells me i do. in my defense i wrote a handful of specs, would not expect anyone to think it's a riveting reading. honestly i thought we'd be on the same page re "why in god's world would you read technical details of a thing i'm working on without also working on it. there's so many more fun things to do"
crtdaydreams: I apologise for my insolence asciilifeform, phf. I've only meaningfully read through the pest spec once, other 4 times were simply a perusal from nothingburger conversations. It's evident that I have nothing to contribute and will take my leave.
punkman: phf: do you perhaps know of simple e2e encrypted messenger for android?
asciilifeform: phf: indeed offen enuff asciilifeform surprised when finds who reads his various materials and how ended up doing so
asciilifeform: 'i was looking for a usb debugger for xiaomi'
asciilifeform: crtdaydreams: in case not clear, asciilifeform dun particularly care whether you read it, and doesn't mind answering whatever q's. but think whether is even what you wanted -- maybe wanted 'debugger for xiaomi' and here by pure accident...
punkman: I enjoyed trying to implement earlier Pest spec. learned a few bits about networking/sockets/etc
punkman: kinda ran out of steam when I started pulling out sqlite for simpler "k-v" store
asciilifeform: iirc verisimilitude also recently read up on ip stack etc., learned ada, as side effect of following thrd
asciilifeform: punkman: on asciilifeform's chalkboard there is 'clean k-v store on 'cryostat'' but who knows if will live longenuff
phf: asciilifeform: you provide useful function to a handful of neets, a comfy place to hang and learn with frens, but the answer to my question "why you read the spec 5 times" is "i didn't really"
asciilifeform: phf: some folx use word 'read' to refer to the kind of activity schoolchildren often found in, a kind of pantomime of study
phf: didn't start this thread as some kind of learning exercise, was genuinely baffled
phf: punkman: i don't, but what's your usecase? the reason why i'm asking is because i sort of understand the problem you're trying to solve, and i couldn't solve it myself, in a broader sense than just "tool for my phone".
asciilifeform: afaik the 1 confessed 'neet' was jonsykkel ( for whom asciilifeform would trade three battalions of 'decent' people, lol ) but may be orthogonal to yer point
phf: verisimilitude was by his own admission
asciilifeform pictures verisimilitude as seekrit bastard son of some rockefeller
asciilifeform: then again could easily be hobo with a lappy; tight-lipped fella , not gives enuff hint re which
punkman: something that you can tell friend to grab from app store and is not a "telegram"/"signal". mostly for two party communication, no group function needed
asciilifeform: punkman: surely you aint under the notion that a pestron would last >5sec in an 'appstore
punkman: not asking for pestron, but why wouldn't it
phf: punkman: i have an app (for iphone, because that's who i needed to cover), that talks to own server, using nacl, it's a very dumb messenger that can send text and photos. i use it to talk to wife and a handful of relatives. i side installed it. i've not ever upgraded since the early development.
asciilifeform can think of several solid reasons, but will leave as exercise
asciilifeform: phf: iirc shinohai actually operates a pestron in this style
phf: asciilifeform: my "protocol" if you call it that is a lot more needy than pest, because not trying to fight fbi or whatever. for example there's a lot of back and forth over "did you get the message? yes i got the message. are you sure you got the message? yes, i'm sure, did you get my message that i'm sure" etc.
asciilifeform: fwiw (and apologies to folx for whom this fact 100% obv) -- pest is an algo, rather than 'product'; anyone who wants can not only use 'internally' but refine and diverge in whatever preferred way, and not expected to necessarily tell asciilifeform & co. or advertise, is simply mechanical refinement of ancient tech.
billymg: punkman: https://pgpro.app/ (ios only, and not meant for back and forth chat, but very easy to use for normies) technically open source but who knows what you're getting when you download the binary from the app store
asciilifeform: ( re 'why' -- asciilifeform outlined at agonizing pedantic length in log, aims to make conceivable wotronic p2p net, for applications including but not limited to text chats, with reasonable resistance to jamming . had been working on similar since early 2000s. )
phf: asciilifeform: i'm not sure who this directed to, but it kind of seems like it's a conversation with me still?
asciilifeform: phf: aimed at hypothetical reader, lol
asciilifeform: (the kind who wonders 'do i need to read this, or am i looking for a xiaomi debugger' lol)
asciilifeform: billymg: imho the wisdom of keeping longterm keys of whatever kind on a pnoje or similar vendor-controlled device -- questionable
asciilifeform: is 1 reason wai asciilifeform not eager to 'but could put this on pnoje, for n00bs and nontechnicals, wai not do so'
phf: i think the conclusion of this conversation is "read my, asciilifeform's, spec 5 times? of course one should, not to say that not reading it marks one for some kind of imbecile, a dimwit, a person of poor taste, and even lesser standing, that is not what i, asciilifeform, say at all, but would i be surprised if one were to do it, out of own volition? not at all, for it is written by me!"
asciilifeform: ( billymg see also )
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-26 17:26:54 asciilifeform: the fundamental problem with 'duct tape and chewing gum' ciphermachines, is that it is very, very easy to fool yourself into thinking that you've achieved something, when in fact you have led yourself and -- worse, possibly people with actual secrets to protect -- to the chopping block, by putting same linux+opensores liquishitware into pocket-sized vaguely-ciphermachine-like package.
billymg: asciilifeform: of course, but assumed punkman wasn't looking for "thwart the nsa" levels of security when he asked for "something that you can tell friend to grab from app store"
asciilifeform: phf: n00b walks in; cites a pest thrd, asks n00b q; asciilifeform : 'read sect. x of spec' . is typical. but not equiv. to 'what, imbecile, haven't read fucking scripture?' of mp, and imho disingenuous parallel
shinohai: logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-13#1106463 << yeah running pestronics on phone won't be for avg. "app for that" user, requires getting hands dirty.
asciilifeform: billymg: plenty of heathen chats in appstore atm neh
asciilifeform: what's the point of making an n+1st ?
asciilifeform: an 'appstore pest' is arguably similar to 'central bank cryptocurrency' and other bizarre wastes of kilowattage
asciilifeform: ... why have the moving parts for p2p, if you're giving hitler the keyz right off the bat.
phf: asciilifeform: but see i'm not talking to you either, just a hypothetical reader, who might find my dandyism humorous
asciilifeform: phf: a++, plz continue if have the cycles
asciilifeform enjoys phf's crit, usually is 100% irrefutable
phf: asciilifeform: on a serious note though i think that there should perhaps in this kind of cases be an explicit distinction between a sysop and a luser. no reason why small community of people who are less technically inclined can't get some kind of localized central authority to manage this kind of stuff. in fact i'd love for there to be more products like that. "just give me a way to configure it once, but then present a very smooth
phf: surface to the end user"
asciilifeform: ^ imho entirely reasonable
asciilifeform: 194x: 'he's the radio man of our rote kapelle' 202x: 'he's our pester'
phf: aha
asciilifeform: if the thing had some kinda uptake somewhere, prolly would take this form often enuff
asciilifeform interested to see what comes of phf's idea of www door into a pestnet
asciilifeform: potentially closes some of that gap
bitbot: (pest) 2022-06-08 asciilifeform: awt: was thinking about a hypothetical blatta mod for emplacing e.g. a n00b gate in place of dulapnet;
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-06 13:43:52 asciilifeform: signpost: would be handy to have it in #a (which asciilifeform plans to keep around as a n00b door, until figures out a way to cleanly bridge an irc door to pestnet) but not essential imho
asciilifeform: upstack, fwiw the hash chains thing solves this reasonably compactly. ( and aint in any sense orig. idea of asciilifeform's, stolen 'lock stock and barrel' from bitcoin )
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-13 17:31:10 phf: asciilifeform: my "protocol" if you call it that is a lot more needy than pest, because not trying to fight fbi or whatever. for example there's a lot of back and forth over "did you get the message? yes i got the message. are you sure you got the message? yes, i'm sure, did you get my message that i'm sure" etc.
asciilifeform: 'this backchains to sumthing i dun have, lemme ask for it', recurse
asciilifeform: worx w/ 2 participants as well as with 20
asciilifeform: in 1st draft, asciilifeform had 'ack', realized quickly that it was utterly redundant
asciilifeform: ( and in current scheme, if one insists on guaranteed 'they heard me', can issue 'prod' to one's net , to similar effect )
asciilifeform suspects that a seriously pedantic archaeologist might say 'stolen not from bitcoin, but from usenet' and wouldn't be wrong
asciilifeform: 'trampled in run to fire exits'
phf: asciilifeform: particular mechanism exists in the whole evidence of absence vs absence of evidence territory and depending on how you twist your nobs or flags you expose become one or another. then there's also user facing indicators.
asciilifeform: phf: possibly failure of imagination on my part, but can't think presently of even theoretical moar compact or cheaper mechanism for synchronized set
asciilifeform: (than chains, that is)
asciilifeform: there's of course stochastic sync ( e.g. luby ) but not ideal for low-traffic link like chat
asciilifeform: ( and considerably 'hungrier' even at most miserly rate )
asciilifeform: ideally, of course, chains for 'chat' and luby&friends for GB warez...
phf: asciilifeform: you're missing my meaning
asciilifeform: plox to expand then
asciilifeform: ( 'indicator of missing msg for user' atm is necessarily very poor, given how irc behaves 'like teletype' )
phf: i'm talking about how this thing applies to practical usage and what it indicates. every time one recieves a getchain request, knows that the other side is alive and knows at least up to getchain's argument (because no way to tell if anything that you resent in response to get chain got delivered)
phf: conversly other side is free to choose when it asks to getchain in entirely unbounded way
asciilifeform: not quite, only knows that you have that 1 particular msg (you could be missing other predecessors somewhere)
phf: can never ask (and yet theoretically still got all messages)
phf: or can be asking at us frequency
phf: so the question becomes "when to ask for efficient"
asciilifeform: also whom to ask ( in current spec, is 'ask whole net' which arguably quite wasteful )
phf: at a certain frequency getchain becomes essentially ack
phf: at a lower frequency it becomes a poll
phf: sorry /at a higher frequency/ becomes poll
asciilifeform: well erry incoming broadcast from given net 'is an ack' in this sense, if you recv'd a msg, you can see whether its netchain includes what you had just sent
asciilifeform: so avoids poll when not req'd
asciilifeform: (and when req'd, the station with 'gap' knows what to ask for to fill)
phf: asciilifeform: yes, but one doesn't ever have to broadcast, so this "outgoing is also an ack", complicates the reasoniing not simplifies it
phf: the point of this whole frequency talk is not to just know that there's messages eventually, but /when/ you know
asciilifeform: phf: arguably there's an unnecessary barb in current protocol, where netchain is unused for direct msg sessions -- really oughta be treated as simply special case of broadcast in that sense, where netchain includes the 2 parties strictly
phf: obv will know fastest if sending getchain at us speeds, yolo
phf: pragmatic solution is probably "send it at human speeds and as an effect of human attention", but you just moved beyond "clever protocol" into "hacks" territory. and i'm not saying that it can even be solved without hacks
asciilifeform: ( the other objective, ftr, of chains, aside from delivery ack / getdata, is to make msgs meaningless outta context, further complicating replay attack )
phf: e.g. when one opens chat with x, in gui, send getchain always
asciilifeform: phf: this function currently served by 'prod' (there aint a 'getchain', there's a 'getdata' which takes specific msg hash, and a 'prod' which sends yer current state vars )
asciilifeform reminds tuned in folx that afaik none of the current prototypes implement 'prod'
phf: asciilifeform: that's completely unrelated to what i'm saying
asciilifeform comes up short re how not related. read phf's observation as 'there oughta be a way to ask $peer at time t 'are we in sync'', which atm is offered in 'prod' mechanism
asciilifeform: there are well-known 'lamportian' limits to what can be achieved in general this say (to take simple example, say the 'prod' lags behind a n+1st msg due to packet reordering)
asciilifeform: *this way
asciilifeform: ( possibly what phf meant under 'proofs of absence' ? )
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-13 18:15:21 phf: the point of this whole frequency talk is not to just know that there's messages eventually, but /when/ you know
asciilifeform: phf: atm the net operates at a reasonable multiple of 'human attention freq', as side effect of 'send 'ignores' to keep nat ephemeral port open' originally
asciilifeform: this defo not 'optimally miserly' however
asciilifeform: if sending msgs cost a buck ea., would need to be rockefeller.
asciilifeform: (fortunately it doesn't)
phf: so in other words one can send getdata every second to everyone and not be concerned
asciilifeform: ( this incidentally illustrates (entire class of) unsolved problems in re hypothetical 'uwb radio pest' )
asciilifeform: ( in the hypothetical 'uwb pest' -- erry msg you send potentially demasks yer position and brings gestapo closer )
asciilifeform: ( i.e. makes less plausible the assertion 'hey i wasn't pirateradioing, i merely flicked my 'bic' with piezo igniter to light a cig, wanna light?' )
asciilifeform: uninitiated folx would be surprised to learn what 'pirate sw radios' they already own...
asciilifeform must bbl but ftr kudos to phf for loading algo into head and digging in
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-13#1106441 << either that or evidence of a schizoid mind that both "wants to" and "gee so busy"
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-13 17:22:13 phf: asciilifeform: you provide useful function to a handful of neets, a comfy place to hang and learn with frens, but the answer to my question "why you read the spec 5 times" is "i didn't really"
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-13 17:43:07 phf: asciilifeform: but see i'm not talking to you either, just a hypothetical reader, who might find my dandyism humorous
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-13#1106480 << I would like to put the thing in every ranch owner's hands that I know.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-13 17:46:27 asciilifeform: 194x: 'he's the radio man of our rote kapelle' 202x: 'he's our pester'
signpost: because there are good odds we're headed for another great depression.
signpost: I also did work for a niche food distributor once upon a time, runs trucks all across the states, sorta novel distribution network.
signpost: ideal thing to put in the hands of their truckers to distribute along the routes.
signpost: guy had a more religions reason for hating the state than I had, but hey, however you get up the mountain.
signpost: *religious
asciilifeform: signpost: asciilifeform 100% pro 'whole thing in turnkey iron and for ranchers etc' but with the obv caveats.
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-12-16 13:06:17 asciilifeform: cgra: i ought to make clear that i do not atm have any plans to mass-produce any kind of irons (beyond handful of prototypes for own use.) simply because it -- afaik -- cannot be done economically.
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-02-04 22:26:26 asciilifeform: shinohai: the funniest paradox, is that it is ~impossible to make a conventional '+ev' biz case for sane irons. (given that '100% openly published specs' is intrinsically part of 'sane'.) and so to bake it, yer stuck to work with insane folx. or w/ whatever coins you can muster on own power.
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-08-20 18:16:54 asciilifeform: there simply aint many folx who want these badly enuff to pay what they'd cost.
signpost: oh yeah, not waiting for such a thing to fall into my lap.
signpost: incidentally thought of an amusing low-bandwidth signaling medium for neighborhood scale. seismic thumper.
signpost still waiting for his damned geophone gear. oughta arrive soon.
vex: ^neato and thought provoking. can't wait to trail a wire from the uboat
vex: I feel for cdd, time money continuum is a hellofan algo
signpost: yeah, but "I owe daddy" is worse.
vex: I got the same vibe, oh noes now we owe the bank
signpost not going to speculate what the situation is, but encourages people to live for themselves. it was the previous generation's job to live for you.
signpost: when you have kids, pay it forward.
signpost: parents have no business failing to the degree that they rob their descendents.
signpost: no personal experience with this, but it's a sort of civilizational problem at this point.
vex: seems there's a decent landholding involved, different to dubai contacter, just one more year
signpost wishes the guy luck resolving it, w/e it may be.
vex: succession planners exist.
signpost: hell my dad's done well, and I hope he burns every cent to the ground having fun til he checks out.
signpost: families that commingle everything suffer.
vex: that's all well and good. go whoring in thailand or whatever
signpost: literally w/e he likes.
vex: but if you're putting in years, it's good for everyone to know where it's going
signpost: distasteful thing when the piggies assemble to squeal for their piece.
signpost: anyway how's life vex
vex: I agree signpost
vex: not bad, time money continuum conundrum exists for all
vex: I was sorry to hear about your Mum too. I didn't say it immediately
signpost: nbd, processed the thing. but thanks.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-13 21:05:03 signpost: parents have no business failing to the degree that they rob their descendents.
signpost: I dun get the reference but I'm still bootsandcatsing along with it.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-13 21:09:47 vex: that's all well and good. go whoring in thailand or whatever
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-13 21:15:54 phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-13#1106572 << i always liked guy ritchie's treatment of subj https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYwgG2oyUbA
phf: signpost: that madonna clip was made by guy ritchie, mostly unrelated to song subj. in it m.'s character steals a car, antagonizes cops, races and just generally being a bad girl, while her presumably alzheimer's mom riding on the front passanger sit. i always thought that's better than "pay for endless medical treatment so that slowly wasting away" etc
phf: ends with the car and passangers wrapping around pole
signpost: ah got it.
signpost: 100% a better ending. or nice and quick on a bad landing in a field.
signpost: the way americans keep their pet grandparents alive in hellish "care" is a sin.
asciilifeform: signpost: mengele has nuffin on reich 'care industry' aha
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-13#1106563 << (will omit the oblig. 'summon worm!') but interestingly enuff can actually get coupla 100 baud this way -- geophones work in both dirs.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-13 20:44:58 signpost: incidentally thought of an amusing low-bandwidth signaling medium for neighborhood scale. seismic thumper.
asciilifeform: rather like hydrophone under sea does
asciilifeform: not particularly 'stealth' tho
asciilifeform: see also elephant .
phf: послушайте, ихтиандр! зачем вы выбросили жемчуг?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-13 21:25:38 signpost: 100% a better ending. or nice and quick on a bad landing in a field.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 17:04:38 asciilifeform: 'it's better than from vodka or from colds!'(tm)(r)(v.vysotsky, 'mountain climber')
signpost: nah not stealth, just fell out as a fun experiment.
asciilifeform recalls historical 'signal systems' with cannon shots
asciilifeform pictures 'tcp over .22' lol
signpost: no end to the hilariously demented implementations.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-13#1106566 << defo, there's a deadly glue trap there, and no working folx exempt in inflatistan
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-13 21:02:20 vex: I feel for cdd, time money continuum is a hellofan algo
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-25 13:43:36 asciilifeform: 'it’s quite difficult for us to avoid increasing our standard of living (or at least our rate of spending) every time we get a raise' << good % of this is illusion, and what people actually do is ~buying same~ (or moar threadbare) ~after n yrs of inflationism~
phf: specially trained dogs
asciilifeform was a little astonished to learn that there are still folx who know how to breed & train mail pigeons
asciilifeform: ( at least, there were in early 2000s , when encountered )
vex: this is my signals horse *face* he's allowed to go anywhere
vex: need the madonna to make the correct face
signpost: "No sir, I don't like it." (tm) (r) (ren & stimpy)
phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-07#1043650 << til that it comes with a movie, about soviet alpinists https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r71gzuvkU0A (i've not seen it yet, so can't comment, but has subtitles for esl, looks /very/ soviet)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 17:04:38 asciilifeform: 'it's better than from vodka or from colds!'(tm)(r)(v.vysotsky, 'mountain climber')
asciilifeform saw, loong ago
asciilifeform: notbad imho
asciilifeform: 'the only thing better than mountains / is mountains we haven't yet climbed'(tm)(r)(subj)
phf: random scene i clicked on has a very james bondian one of characters flirting shirtless with a doctor lady who's checking up on him in front of a water fall.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-13 16:26:25 phf: is also curious, does not remember
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-31 11:27:18 phf: signpost: do you use relayd?
phf: oh, i have no idea if it can be used for that. or what to use it for at all :D
asciilifeform: a phf, and also found the sticker, lol, in rack (fell off!), 'great lakes gl720e'
asciilifeform: ( tho oddly enuff looking on www they normally have 32, 36, or 37 u. )
asciilifeform: '1500 lb max weight'
asciilifeform: ( can mount e.g. 7 asciilifeform-style ups expanders , say )
asciilifeform only has 2, no particular point in stretching beyond time req'd for the genset to revv up (or even to change oil in same)
vex: did you brick in some rackage in the new house asciilifeform?
vex: chimney clinkers ftw
vex: You're a high degree mason if you can dynabolt some rails and it slides in first time everytime
vex: no club required
phf: it's unfortunate that there's on competing illuminati faction like you have free masons which are all brick and mortar, but then you also have free joiners which are more about woodwork. "jesus was a carpenter! -- but the chirch is built stone by stone!" etc.
phf: *no competing
vex: I see your union and raise you a freeman
vex: I like how Vulpes changed his name
vex: all the cubs are vulpez
vex: He's such a lovely man too.what a legacy
vex: should I change my name if I move to pestnet?
vex injects a heavy nope
vex: not that it really matters tho. i've glanced at the spec
vex: can I haz music phf?
phf: sorry, i'm in teh equestrian youtube hole
vex: I will also take nz freejumping queens or whatveer you've got
vex: do you know alycia burton?
vex: she doesnt have a saddle also ignores fences
phf: i kind of think free riding is a gimick
vex: ofc she's selling something, but she's not smoking meth anymore
vex: can't wait till bingo boingo comes back making saddles
phf: vex: i see your gimicky equestrian video and raise hiphop dressage https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knCj92zA0tU
vex goes to look, but you can't say the lady doesn't ignore fencing
vex: I can't compete
vex: beast that can dressage and ignore fences is my goal
vex: also sunrise beach gallops
phf: vex: that's peak anglo right there
vex: wasp on my knuckles
vex: fall off and get right back on wall drilled into me.
vex: I ride texas style
phf: with a cigar and a colt
vex: that too,
vex: usually someoneelks trains the beast
vex: I've fallen off a few
vex: I've landed heavy once or twice
vex: never a helmet, always looking cool
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-13#1106644 << a 'free plumbers' seekrit soc. would be lulzy
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-13 22:10:07 phf: it's unfortunate that there's on competing illuminati faction like you have free masons which are all brick and mortar, but then you also have free joiners which are more about woodwork. "jesus was a carpenter! -- but the chirch is built stone by stone!" etc.
vex: seen bingoboingo?
phf: vex: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OugB51fX0nY (as they say "wait for it")
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