adlai wonders how to reduce paste buffer failures in the future, short of treating everything as nuke launch-codes-and-simultaneous-keys-etcetera
adlai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-05#1093061 << this is a bit of a false equivalence, imo
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-05 15:50:30 PeterL: verisimilitude: why do you always put the latin words in all caps?
adlai: in those days, the act of writing was young compared to what we've got today.
adlai: one theory I recall, from forgotten source, is that the classical capslock stereotype is due to the ease of making straight lines and curves with large radius when engraving stone and scratching clay with a stylus, compared to the fancy calligraphy you can do when using ink.
adlai: ink and papyrus, and parchment, and other various implements, did definitely exist in those days, although were less permanent.
adlai: fwiw, I don't think I ever wrote latin in allcaps before less than a decade ago, when refreshing my latin knowledge by occasionally discussing it on IRC.
adlai: in school - capitalised like any natural language, i.e. never letters other than first of a word, and only in words with a specific reason for this (after certain punctuation, and proper names)
adlai: even, I emphasize, when writing with chalk on blackboard, which is much more similar to stylus and tablet than ink and parchment.
adlai: some students do chalkboard calligraphy... most, don't. most fragment chalk into useless shards and then claim asthma.
adlai never spent enough idle time at chalkboard to master this kind of calligraphy; some teachers, otoh, were legendary for rendering physical aids (e.g. compass) extraneous, could draw better and faster without them
adlai: of course, good luck getting a teacher to vacate the teacher's seat... chalkboard is for students to expose each other's mistakes. teacher? at best, spectator; at worst, ibidem.
adlai wonders whether any of the terminal-keyboard resenters here 'hover'
adlai: I don't know what verb better describes the synthesis of hunt-and-peck and touch-typing.
adlai: in practice, what I'd describe as 'hovering', is when I have one hand elsewhere -- whether busy or idle, irrelevant -- and only one hand active, typically resting in the qwerty FGHJ region, and when typing, doing so without placing weight on the wrist.
adlai: obviously, OOM less efficient than conventional touch-typing.
adlai: 'OOM' ~= order-of-magnitude; 'ibidem' = latin adverb, ~= english 'similarly', most commonly seen these days in lists of citations to mean "anything left to interpretation defaults to identical values found in most recent citation"
adlai abandons self-interpretation and returns to study of compiler
asciilifeform: $ticker btc usd
busybot: Current BTC price in USD: $43428.72
asciilifeform: !w poll
watchglass: Polling 15 nodes...
watchglass: 184.108.40.206:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.081s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=730857
watchglass: 220.127.116.11:8333 : (ns562940.ip-54-39-156.net) Alive: (0.112s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=730857
watchglass: 18.104.22.168:8333 : Alive: (0.081s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=730857
watchglass: 22.214.171.124:8333 : Alive: (0.022s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=730857 (Operator: whaack)
watchglass: 126.96.36.199:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.129s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=730857
watchglass: 188.8.131.52:8333 : Alive: (0.145s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=730857 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 184.108.40.206:8333 : (pool-71-191-220-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.166s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=730857 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 220.127.116.11:8333 : Alive: (0.143s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=730857
watchglass: 18.104.22.168:8333 : (ns3140226.ip-54-38-94.eu) Alive: (0.307s) V=88888 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.8.88.88/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=730857
watchglass: 22.214.171.124:8333 : (2ppf.s.time4vps.cloud) Alive: (0.309s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=730184
watchglass: 126.96.36.199:8333 : (static-82-79-58-192.rdsnet.ro) Alive: (0.326s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=730857
watchglass: 188.8.131.52:8333 : (terebe.ns01.net) Alive: (0.656s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=730857
watchglass: 184.108.40.206:8333 : Alive: (0.539s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=730857
watchglass: 220.127.116.11:8333 : Alive: (0.507s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=428615 (Operator: whaack)
asciilifeform: !q uptime
dulapbot: asciilifeform: time since my last reconnect : 295d 11h 44m
watchglass: 18.104.22.168:8333 : Busy? (No answer in 100 sec.)
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-22 13:10:06 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-22#1087064 << imho rather obv. at this pt that reich doesn't recognize the existence of any powers other than self. the lulz where usg talking head emitted a 'china must obey...' quite illustrative.
asciilifeform: iirc was comedic episode, where reich talking head 'threatened' cn with... recall of 'software licenses'
signpost: https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/china-threatens-forceful-measures-if-pelosi-visits-taiwan-amid-reports-speaker-arrive << see also
signpost: "It's been confirmed that Nancy Pelosi's weekend Asia trip has been postponed following her positive Covid-19 test."
signpost: if true, too bad the thing's perfectly curable with the appropriate amount of money.
asciilifeform not recalls even 1 reich politician 'died of covid'
signpost: videotape could emerge of these creatures being fucked in the ass by Xi, and there'd be no reaction.
asciilifeform: not even clear to asciilifeform why reich bothers with the media circus. given as makes 0 diff in reality what inmates think.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-24 16:29:03 asciilifeform: the # of 'unbelievers' is unknown, cuz reich aint set up in such a way that the captives' beliefs actually matter in any way
asciilifeform: evidently 'religious' ritual.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-24 16:24:14 asciilifeform: well say a fella decides 'nyt is fulla shit, wish i could serve putin'. what's his next step.
signpost: yep, they like the feeling that they're in on the scam.
signpost: only kind of person that'd even take the job.
phf: speaking of policiticans who died of covid, Zhirinovsky passed away yesterday. end of an era
asciilifeform: makes approx. same diff as if e.g. trump had keeled over, tho
asciilifeform: d00d wasn't afaik really a playing character at any pt
phf: more like a famous actor from your childhood passing away. trump at least had significant recent impact, z. was mostly up to the same shenanigans since the 90s
asciilifeform: trump -- also actor. but yea
asciilifeform: 'my hands are clean, but if i were to become president, they will be covered in blood!'(tm)(r)(zhirik)
signpost: consider that everything trump needed to arrest his political adversary fell in his lap while still "president", amounted to nothing.
signpost: the laptop episode, I mean.
asciilifeform: his buttons weren't connected. rather like the placebo buttons at pedestrian crossings in washingtonistan.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-02 18:55:28 asciilifeform: recall that brochure where listed the ministries trump promised to close ?
signpost: I'm sure they read him a long list of kompromat on day 1.
asciilifeform: not only, but when issued edicts, supposed 'subordinates' just laffed.
phf: isn't that an old dave chappelle skit, "on the first day they sat down obama, showed him all the files, and explained why there will be no change" etc.
signpost: bill hicks joke, satan bless him.
phf: by trump refined process, no change needed if buttons don't work
signpost: "they show you the kennedy assassination from an angle you've never seen before"
signpost: "just one question, what's my agenda?"
signpost: hell, might be carlin. I'm sure they all did that one.
phf: yeah that's hick alright, i think chappelle's take was a lot more benign, like there's /reasons/
asciilifeform: phf: speaking of old folx, asciilifeform to this day puzzles re wai dks 100% impervious to commercial collab. esp. given as usg seems to have cut him off.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-05 22:44:37 phf: asciilifeform: his remaining stock requires technical and engineering skill to get to a packaged state
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-28 09:54:36 asciilifeform: and see also. loox like not even the ancient support contract paid since '15 -- unless under the table
asciilifeform: phf: possibly asciilifeform simply ill mannered & perma-pissed him off in 2010s
asciilifeform for extra lulz, may've in fact personally issued his very last usg contract
phf: asciilifeform: i think the subject has been discussed to death a) most "collabs" that come his way are from autistic dreamers b) the structure of ownership between him and mallory puts him into a very tight straightjacket c) you're a curmudgeon
asciilifeform: ( '11. in fact did the legwork to convince bureaucrats that, indeed, a dec-alpha-lispm is precisely what is needed in $shithole, did the 'sole source justification' etc. ceremonies.. )
asciilifeform: phf: must be quite tight straightjacket evidently
asciilifeform wonders how many 0s would need in the dough on the barrelhead for d00d to start writhing in the straightjacket detectably
phf: yeah see it's shit like that. why don't you approach mallory instead who is the actual owner of symbolics? see how far you can get. dks actually does things, but then neither you nor mp believe in the whisperers approach, which is fine by me
asciilifeform: phf: at one pt actually wrote to mallery. /dev/null
asciilifeform: ( hence asciilifeform's cosmography re role of mallery, i.e. likely his interest aint commercial )
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-28 09:55:35 asciilifeform: afaik still owned by j. mallery, who most likely a minor-league nsa stooge.
asciilifeform had written to k.reti (grand vizier, approx) , then, also, identical result.
asciilifeform: re dks , imho rather odd that feeding him for yr+ still dun getcha distinguished from 'autistic redditus'. but nfi.
phf: i think mallory is the reason neither you nor signpost like horses, kek. man is an "avid skier" of the brandy at a lodge in aspen type, carrier apparatchik, living out his last days by way of his class. why do anything with symbolics assets when you can just feel self important by owning it, in that respect no different from a jade jewelry box from the orient, or a lion's head over a mantel
asciilifeform recalls similar frustration of mp, who fed (moar stingily, even) the openbsd d00d, who then wouldn't answer mail
asciilifeform: phf: possibly; can't say for certain through my telescope.
signpost still suspicious of the openbsd dismissal.
asciilifeform: (that is, whether 'appointed by pentagon to ensure 'putler' dun get bolix ip' or 'rockefeller, collected it with jade horses to keep in his scrooge mcduck gold swimming pool' )
signpost: "take this money, and here is my blog where I discuss the amusing episode of my bitch's latest anal fissure"
asciilifeform: d00d didn't ~have~ to take, is the thing
phf: asciilifeform: you're mixing your metaphors. jade boxes and lionheads are not for rockefeller, they are for the servents of empire, retired
asciilifeform: (not like anal fissure chronicle? dun take?)
signpost not taking a moral stance against buttstuff, here.
signpost: phf: at any rate, my gripe with these is the poverty of their tastes, not that they enjoy retirement.
signpost been to the vineyard, to ski town, florida beach house, etc
asciilifeform did not find much re mallery, other than 'retired prof' w/ ~no publications and a predilection for nsa mouthpiecing evidently recreationally
dulapbot: (trilema) 2018-01-17 asciilifeform: 'John Mallery @jcmallery_cyber 25 Dec 2017 Declinism is a psyop of adversaries...it was spread before during the Vietnam war.' << ahahahaha gold
signpost: if they like empire, empire better!
signpost: asciilifeform: yep, makes my point better than I did.
asciilifeform: most folx sitting on e.g. rembrandt, ~will~ let go of it if someone shows up w/ enuff dough. (and generally the req'd sum aint a total mystery.) but asciilifeform suspects this is rather different case.
phf: asciilifeform: he's an ngo consultant, it's a type of person who's an external mouthpiece second, and internal one first. he make presentations on relevant talking points from his domain to move forward agendas within closed political organizations.
asciilifeform has encountered this type in meatspace biz, familiar.
phf: if you need to e.g. bring democracy to moldova you have a wide variety of organizations doing semi engineering work, tearing copper lines out, placing voip lines in, that route through mclean. you have other organizations praying on first organizations for some kind of auxilary support. can't have those voip lines without special cyber security dust sprinkled. that's when mallory comes in, prof emeritus mit, with a history in ai and
phf: cyber security and writes you a presentation at x$/hr for two years
asciilifeform to his shame worked w/ very similar schemes, at bottoms of org charts however, for yrs
signpost: this was why I couldn't stay at $megacorp.
signpost: 99% saying the magic words while you click through a deck.
asciilifeform manufactured the 'magic dusts' etc
phf: signpost: this is actually not megacorp, this is a different kind of beast, that 99% of americans don't know or understand. the NGO
phf: ngos is how everything is done, badly, in the empire
signpost: just applying the symbols from the set I've got.
asciilifeform: moar or less like ordinary usg corp but w/out the pretense of 'market' or 'clients'. i.e. w/ exactly 1 client.
phf: converting tax money into political agenda
signpost has a hard time distinguishing this from e.g. "X" projects
signpost: megacorp in the limit's pretty integrated with imperial objectives.
asciilifeform: most such outfits aint 'mega' in the usual sense. typically an office downtown w/ maybe coupla dozen, max, bodies
asciilifeform: budget aint always 'mega', either
signpost: at any rate, the comparison's not important to me, other than having to internalize a religion, convince reporting structure that religious objectives are being achieved.
asciilifeform: but, importantly, reliably and directly from printola press, for so long as krysha dun leak
phf: the 1.5 aid to ukrain, or the 150 infrastructure bill (or whatever it is), will be primarily realized by ngos. they are not directly beneficiaries of that money, but they are the middle men between the government and the contractors
signpost: that also, "FAANG" is definitely running on printola.
signpost: and in most of these, most of the "product" runs cover for the actual product.
asciilifeform: phf: aha, typically usg throws e.g. 100m, and it buys 5-6 riverfront mansions, and remainder to indian grad students, min.wage interns, and coupla 100 e.g. ukrs working for 3$/d
signpost kinda sees the "turn the pretense knob way down" and "the extraction knob way up" of this.
signpost: I'm sure there's much here I'm not familiar with.
asciilifeform: good % of the technical employment in washingtonistan is for (or in periphery) of these outfits.
asciilifeform: and not only technical (attourneys, misc.paper-pushers, etc)
signpost: upstack, why are the symbolics assets needed?
signpost not sure who the customer for revived lispm would be.
asciilifeform: separate q.
signpost: yep, asking, rather than implying not.
asciilifeform: the market for 'softs that actually work' aint quite 0.
asciilifeform: (e.g. wolfram turns a profit, somehow)
signpost: (I'm over here fiddling with a linux distro based upon V, so "market depth" doesn't often matter to me)
asciilifeform: right but in re hypothetical 'couldja knock on mallery's door and not have the dogs set on you if come in w/ correct offer'
signpost: depends, he might be the man that enjoys being buried with the schematic for warp drive, rather than seeing it used.
signpost: these should probably be identified and fixed as early in development as possible.
signpost has a hard time seeing the light between this and suicidality.
asciilifeform: most likely, simply reich-designated undertaker for 'things that oughta stay buried'
signpost: reich's also suicidal.
signpost has been grunting about repairing the concept "self" for this reason.
signpost: heh, on this subject, they're having the Navy guy with "mass reduction device" patents do podcast tours now.
verisimilitude: What's wrong with being suicidal and simply not doing it?
signpost: I've said, at length, but don't care to convince you.
verisimilitude: We don't live in a world particularly worth living in.
verisimilitude: Link me to the logs, then.
signpost will be writing on this subject on an ongoing basis.
signpost: one doesn't convince another to live. it cannot be an ethical question.
signpost: *if* one wants to live, *then* from that higher things can be built.
signpost: *I* want to live. If you don't, move out of the way.
asciilifeform: afaik there's no shortage of either wagner or cyanide
phf: you always have stratification in perspective. when you needed men to keep living to build cathedral you told them that if they offed themselves god would be mad, by framing it as an ethical question
asciilifeform not convinced this ever made a 'mass' diff., rather than at edge cases
verisimilitude: I stay alive for three reasons: to learn more about what interests me, to give form to more ideas I've had, and because I'm just going to die anyway.
signpost: convincing men to stay alive is only required if their lives are so wretched their bodies beg otherwise.
verisimilitude: I disagree.
signpost: I was replying to phf primarily.
signpost: but go ahead and disagree with more words, if you like.
phf: asciilifeform: see i think that this kind of stuff makes /all/ the difference. but that's because i'm a strong believer in social learning, i think e.g. bullying is a degenerate case of some kind of teacher/learning/bonding experience. i've experienced it in it's positive form growing up (everyone did) in the form of "don't do that, that's gay" or "why don't you do that, you some kind of girl" etc.
asciilifeform: phf: a, of course makes a diff. simply not convinced that 'serfs would've offed selves en masse if not for priest'
signpost: can hold one's breath until passing out, then breathing resumes.
phf: mass diff is made at graph nodes cases where "has to overcome" "was at rope but jesus spoke to me" etc. i mean they are kind of larp tropes in u.s. now, because only junkies and church cucks whos wife got pregnant by a black dude on a mission to haiti "overcome", but certainly was a useful piece of "brain override physiciology" when such override was needed
signpost: the thing already wants to live. the urge for the bundle of words between the ears to resist this itself admits which came first.
phf: signpost: i wish your life upon all my friends and relatives! :)
signpost: hey man, I've held the gun too.
signpost: the urge to put it back down taught me a lot.
signpost grants sometimes that urge doesn't come.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-07#1093544 << expect that there'll be over9000 of these coming outta the woodwork as reich proceeds on collapse path. similarly to the 'phree oil from rocks' 'witch' in zimbabwe, the 'psychics' sponsored by eltsin, etc
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-07 14:08:05 signpost: heh, on this subject, they're having the Navy guy with "mass reduction device" patents do podcast tours now.
signpost: asciilifeform: yep, seems like further attempt to sow fear in adversaries with the nimitz episode. yawn.
signpost: phf: jesus isn't speaking there; those are voices of admonition stored in specific interactions with other real meat.
signpost doesn't give much of a shit which magic words are used.
signpost: "bud, you may be severely unhealthy right now, but the superorganism comprised of us-and-you would be worse off without you"
signpost: this is nature speaking.
signpost drives at that the superorganism is a much more defensible self than one isolated meatsack.
signpost: one can take it further, but it'd be a start.
phf: signpost: yes, but that's both self evident and useless, imho. unless prepared to jump start society on nature speaking, build a couple of hundred years of collective lore around it, your whatever new perspective will lack necessary conginitive weight. proverbial atheists in foxholes
signpost excuses himself for not using more traditional tautologies!
signpost: those broke, I'm not going back to them.
signpost: anyway the project isn't "pls believe this now", it's this was always the case.
phf: signpost: i understand you, but can you restate what i said in your own terms to help me make sure that you understand me
asciilifeform: imho aint useless to understand old, broken ecologies, even if not even over9000 divisions of freshly-landed martians could possibly 'fix'
signpost: phf: I take you to mean that I'm proposing a new way of thought; whereas I'm drawing upon a few hundred years of philosophy that preceded me.
signpost: and mostly wondering when the rest are going to also read.
phf: nah, no that's not what i'm talking about
phf: let me restate
signpost: "the barrier to your way of thinking is that european minds are filled with the jungian archetypes generated by their long history, and stating things in sterile philosophical language will not have the same impact as using the language that's already there" ?
signpost: with this I'd not disagree at all.
signpost: in the limit the thread here's about "christ consciousness"
phf: yes, thank you :) i was struggling with reexpressing it myself, and this was best
signpost had a paragraph in the post re: nietzsche's ideal "caesar with the soul of christ" but pulled out for another grunting session.
asciilifeform: 'ideal fish is a sausage'
phf: christ being the personification of the voice of your buddies is great, but better if also 100 stories about somebody being in your situation and actually listening to that voice
signpost not opposed to confucianism for the masses, zen for the rest.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-05 21:55:08 asciilifeform: ... as otherwise 'the swine will overconsume'. but is bulk of bipeds necessarily swine ? imho unknown
signpost: asciilifeform: I believe what was being said is that man severed himself.
signpost: but nietzsche's prone to extremes.
verisimilitude: The egregore I mentioned earlier comes to mind.
verisimilitude: Everyone should have one.
signpost: verisimilitude: intentionally creating shared thoughtforms is interesting; the question is where do you stand when you're designing them.
verisimilitude: I didn't design mine, at least not at first. I found it in the anonymous morass.
verisimilitude: It's similar to how I wound up here, actually.
verisimilitude: Similar people find each other through the Internet, without necessarily trying.
asciilifeform suspects substantial 'dark matter' over9000 folx who find nuffin
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-07#1093579 << reich excelled at the job of disconnecting as many as possible from meat superorganism.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-07 14:40:55 signpost: drives at that the superorganism is a much more defensible self than one isolated meatsack.
asciilifeform: i.e. phf's observation -- who still connected to 'a whole' ? (aside from lizards & sublizards ...) -- mostly folx at the margins of printing press system.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-07 14:21:31 phf: mass diff is made at graph nodes cases where "has to overcome" "was at rope but jesus spoke to me" etc. i mean they are kind of larp tropes in u.s. now, because only junkies and church cucks whos wife got pregnant by a black dude on a mission to haiti "overcome", but certainly was a useful piece of "brain override physiciology" when such override was needed
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-07 13:38:56 phf: i think mallory is the reason neither you nor signpost like horses, kek. man is an "avid skier" of the brandy at a lodge in aspen type, carrier apparatchik, living out his last days by way of his class. why do anything with symbolics assets when you can just feel self important by owning it, in that respect no different from a jade jewelry box from the orient, or a lion's head over a mantel
verisimilitude: The egregore loosely connects me to others, but without much in the way of that manner of action.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-31 13:17:02 asciilifeform: lives near a great many of these, they openly fly mexican, salvadorean, etc. flags, raise chickens, have mega-parties w/ over9000 relatives, won't hear any english spoken when walking by
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: that kinda 'connect' has same relation to the real thing as 'world of tanks' to actual battle of kursk.
verisimilitude: Sure, but it's what I've got.
asciilifeform: imho nuffin wrong w/ 'i've no water on this boat, salt sea water is what i've got' so long as you know not to drink it.
verisimilitude: I'd probably be considered to be drinking sea water, then.
asciilifeform: ftr asciilifeform has nuffin against idea of renting horse, boat, mig, for weekend; but doing so aint gonna make you part of the 'set', is the important thing
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-04-22 18:13:08 gregorynyssa: the central aim of British upper-class boarding schools is to teach such traditions, principles, and manners as to promote solidarity among the upper class.
asciilifeform: ( even if you can spare the dough to do it w/ regularity )
asciilifeform: it's a social filter, but there are other filters in place.
asciilifeform recalls tales of e.g. trump being snubbed by 'golf set' even tho the latter playing on his very own golf resorts, lol
phf: asciilifeform: this is like some kind of twitch i get from everyone i talk on subj about, and yours is just the most intelligent. never the less it is functionality equivalent to sitcking your pinky out and going "ooooouh, i see you're into hooooses, i have some hoooses at my estaaaate". the variation on which i've heard a bunch.
asciilifeform: phf: it's sorta how a programmer can buy e.g. porche, on credit, but it similarly won't do anyffin outside of own head. if you like big motors, yes, buy it, so long as have realistic expectations
phf: why does it have to be about present day eloi at all? i don't have access to the real deal so can't argue how much of a complete human being they are. my point is entirely unrelated
asciilifeform: phf: elaborate ?
asciilifeform has 0 against 'anachronism' hobbies, either, either horse in particular or in general. knows various folx who partake.
verisimilitude: I'm a complete human whether anyone agrees or not; this isn't something one gets from society in all cases.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: the obv problem is that this is a reliable recipe for disappearing up own arse
verisimilitude: Well, better mine than someone else's.
asciilifeform: ( this dun require mp's budget -- folx do it all the time on 0$ )
signpost: might be comforting to adjust oneself to imposed isolation, but we're not solitary animals.
signpost: which part of the language I'm using did I invent?
verisimilitude: Well, look at how asciilifeform writes.
signpost: you should probably say what your interpretation of his writing is.
verisimilitude: Hermits have always existed. I'm a naturally-occuring hermit.
signpost suspects the traffic to his www suggests otherwise than hermitage.
verisimilitude: Well, naturally-occurring.
asciilifeform: there's historically such a thing as a hermit, but most folx who advertise selves as 'hermit' today are in fact closer to prisoners in solitary
verisimilitude: Historically, hermits did write, and were visited for wisdom.
asciilifeform: performing gymnastics to convince self 'well, i'ma hermit...'
signpost: verisimilitude: why take these visits, if not a social animal?
verisimilitude: Read my sentence again.
asciilifeform: to have some kinda sporting chance at getting out, prisoner 1st has to understand that he's in the 4 walls on someone else's will, not own
asciilifeform: ( likely enuff still won't see 'out'. but at least can stop identifying self w/ prison )
signpost: verisimilitude: eh, no. say your interpretation of the circumstances. I'm not supplying the effort to infer for free.
verisimilitude: Historically, hermits did write, and WERE VISITED (passive) for wisdom.
signpost: and they opened the door why?
verisimilitude: They didn't mind, apparently.
signpost: see, in person, one can't be so coy when they don't want to walk the path.
signpost: this is the problem with using IRC as a medium to assemble a superorganism.
asciilifeform intensely allergic to 'coy', sees as festering wound symptom of folx who aint straight w/ ~self~, not even to speak of others
verisimilitude: We live in a world allowing for contact without presence, asciilifeform; this certainly dilutes hermitage to a degree.
verisimilitude: I'm not being coy.
verisimilitude: I'm just like this in-person.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: concretely, imho verisimilitude not fits offered portrait 'hermit' at all -- i.e. not waits for passers-by to knock on door, walks around offering links to his www in forums, #a, etc. asciilifeform similarly, would be disingenuous if claimed to 'hermit'
asciilifeform: if must pick a historical flavour, say yer a 'dervish', for instance.
verisimilitude: That's a fair point.
asciilifeform: but a hermit is sumthing quite else
verisimilitude: Physically, I'm a hermit, but that's something different.
asciilifeform: or e.g 'marooned' sailor
phf: verisimilitude: i believe the correct term is hikikomori
asciilifeform: yer marooned, verisimilitude
asciilifeform: asciilifeform also to an extend marooned
asciilifeform: aint quite same thing as hermit.
verisimilitude: I wasn't going to use the word, but sure, phf.
asciilifeform: e.g. mp couldn't ever shuddup re 'not all thinking people are hiki' etc. ad nauseum. but is factual
asciilifeform: folx who marooned longenuff, historically, not always wanted back to shore.
asciilifeform: eventually the req'd parts of yer brain atrophy.
phf: asciilifeform: the discovery of the virtues of horse riding was accidental for me, and why virtue is worthwhile point. it's hard for me to explore that point without referencing aristocracy, because literature. if i was mongol probably would talk about the khaganate. the behaviors of modern eloi is not germane to this point, but more it's a distraction, a kind of easy dismissal.
asciilifeform: phf: asciilifeform doesn't dismiss : is likely subcase of 'virtues of cement mixing' & similar
asciilifeform: ( & of many other things 'you can't do from a bash prompt' )
asciilifeform: the assoc. w/ 'aristos' is from the fact of 'high pilotage' horseplay being a resource-intensive affair, and largely exclusive w/ growing up 'working for living'. 'social filter'.
asciilifeform: today's direct equiv., suspect, aint horse racing, but paul allen's mig
phf: til that polo keeps 3-4 replacement horses in rotation per player, etc.
asciilifeform: and they gotta be fed, combed, medicated, etc yea
signpost experience of horses was being shit-tested by a quarterhorse while trimming beneath the fence on 130acre
asciilifeform recalls similar findings when considered to buy 'cessna'
signpost: wasn't even a bad experience, befriended the fucker, more or less.
asciilifeform: 'yea, plebe, you can buy it, but can you afford to feed it'
signpost was about 10, would jump on his back and cling for dear life, peckerhead would run full speed and then stop to try and throw me.
signpost: at some point I had quarterhorse, asshole goat, and once-injured adopted turkey in his entourage.
phf: signpost: an older lady from the area we know had a morgan growing up, would ride it to school, to store, up the trails, to pub when she got older, etc. not so long ago, but a different time now
phf: but yeah "covered in scratches and bruises from falling off or getting thrown all the time"
signpost didn't love the drugery of it, and was living with folks that saw drudgery as virtuous in itself, but the befriending animals was alright.
asciilifeform a++ into 'befriend animal', but aint aboutta horse, elephant, camel, other critters who demand acres, stablehands
signpost: nah, that readily consumes all cycles, and there are better vehicles.
asciilifeform: to keepr even dog , in city, imho is cruel
phf: signpost: protestant tradition is entirely alien to me, in fact grew up with books with protestants were the bad guys (dumas, etc.)
signpost: place in question was a break-even-at-best cattle ranch.
signpost: phf: I rejected it quite early, went to live with dad.
asciilifeform recalls in a memoir -- kazahs keeping camels in flats, in city, and feeding'em from dumpsters
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-06 20:39:25 asciilifeform: phf, signpost : lulzy re gourd. somehow forgot that thrd. ( subj is in fact mentioned in an underground orcish classic, 'notes of an undisciplined officer', re: kazahs )
phf: in fact the vvitch (2015 robert eggers movie) is i think a pretty good picture of how outsiders see protestants
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2016-12-07#1579202 << infuriating abuse.
dulapbot: (trilema) 2016-12-07 trinque: knows a person who owns a weimaraner, thing paces in her back yard back and forth between back door and window so much there's no grass in the path, has various other compulsions
signpost: phf: given my weird life, was also baptized catholic.
asciilifeform recalls, italians, aha
signpost: ah yeah, this movie was a decent depiction. thin veneer of religion atop animal brutality required to turn the gears of a subsistence life.
signpost: folks in my case returned to this, successfully even.
asciilifeform: signpost: some required, some not, but rather a 'prionic' contagious degeneracy
asciilifeform: ( e.g. from reign of charlamagne to shortly before publication of 'malleus' (instotoris's, not asciilifeform's, lol) 'witch hunt' ~wasn't a thing in europe )
phf: i am ftr not strongly opposed to it. my only objection that it's applied so inconsistently. e.g. i don't know any religious group, not even the amish, that oppose the import of chinese goods on religious grounds, but why not? ought to be some kind of injunction on use of good manifactured in a goodless country by slave labour.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-12-01 13:19:47 signpost: this is the truly heretical thing about american protestantism, that it grants peasants the sovereign voice so they can masturbate with it.
phf: i think my main real objection to christianity at this point is that it's so limp wristed and boring. (u.s. brand anyway) and the two go hand in hand. jesus saved me from opiods so i can engage in every other form of benign sinful behavior
phf: signpost: yeah there you go
verisimilitude: I didn't particularly enjoy ``Brave New World'', but it's an example of how a bad society needn't die; it can instead continue indefinitely.
verisimilitude: So sure, there may be a return to tradition, in the savage reservations.
asciilifeform: 'indefinitely' is a tall order.
asciilifeform: 'wage of sin -- death'(tm)(r)
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-07#1093713 << hard 'nopes' on 'dependence on heathen goods' tend to succumb to n yrs of contact. afaik not even the starovers still 'mno we won't use yer tea kettle, we have this one from 1700s that still worx'
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-07 16:07:01 phf: i am ftr not strongly opposed to it. my only objection that it's applied so inconsistently. e.g. i don't know any religious group, not even the amish, that oppose the import of chinese goods on religious grounds, but why not? ought to be some kind of injunction on use of good manifactured in a goodless country by slave labour.
asciilifeform: i.e. when question comes to matters of subsistence, people behave amoebically. (and the occasional specimen who does not, and 'dies hero', doesn't 'make the weather')
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-06 18:58:50 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-06#1082669 << 'people' who behave amoebically (i.e. follow gradient of 'tastier right there right now'). and see also.
asciilifeform: occasionally whole 'opera' plays out rather quickly. i.e. iirc the yanomami indians in amazon , happily accepted cargo of shotguns & shells in '70s , for whatever (furs? dun recall) trade . and not much heard from'em since.
asciilifeform: the amish, starovers, et al -- afaik still there, at least 'in body' and driving john deere tractors..
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-07#1093716 << observe, jizzus mostly not saved'em from opium; and when 'saved', saved'em for mcd, buying refrigerator on layaway at 40% interest, iraq, etc
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-07 16:09:33 phf: i think my main real objection to christianity at this point is that it's so limp wristed and boring. (u.s. brand anyway) and the two go hand in hand. jesus saved me from opiods so i can engage in every other form of benign sinful behavior
dulapbot: (trilema) 2015-09-03 ascii_field: they happily send their sons to army so they can 'die for a fat bitch's right to marry her dog'
phf: asciilifeform: that is literally that i said
asciilifeform: right, not disagreeing
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-07#1093720 << to date nobody's succeeded in setting up so that tradition 'passes the berlin wall test'.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-07 16:11:32 verisimilitude: So sure, there may be a return to tradition, in the savage reservations.
asciilifeform: i.e. to keep the amoebas from climbing the immediate gradient.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-29 21:56:23 phf: heard a joke, "it took medvedev 10 years to build skolkovo (a kind of technopark dev shop area in ru), and only a week for putin to turn yerevan into silicon valley"
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-06-12 mircea_popescu: it was utterly the case of eg ro revolution. none of the people there wanted "freedom". they were literally pissed off they can't drive over to austrian border and load up the car at the w/e discount shop.
asciilifeform: the amish simply started w/ fatter margin, and took longer than e.g. east berliners.
asciilifeform: when, say, north kr is popped, prolly will cocacolize within week.
asciilifeform: as asciilifeform understands, atm in ru a lackluster experiment in 'decocacolization', and aint going too well
asciilifeform: afaik nobody's run the process in reverse, yet, and no one knows precisely how
verisimilitude: ``Fat man handcuffs himself to closing McDonald's.''
asciilifeform: that was 1 fat tard, and people laff; the 1e6 software people who still wanna get paid, more dire
phf: asciilifeform: i'll take a page from verisimilitude book and say that i reject the picture of the world you're painting. on blind faith and with no supporting argument. i simply do not accept that the entropy wins :)
asciilifeform: phf: the folx who threw in the towel and 'entropy wins' have already wagnered & cyanided, asciilifeform aint there
asciilifeform: but gotta note that there's an actual, serious ecological problem in there, that dun goaway when ignored
phf: was going to say something about accidental drowning
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-05-18 asciilifeform: and even if he believes that it ~cannot~ be further shrunk, it remains his job to die trying
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-05-31 asciilifeform: and if someone wants to mention godel etc -- ethical engineer MAY NOT cite godel, EVER, just as a police detective MAY NOT cite the supernatural and admit a hypothesis of miraculous theft from a safe
asciilifeform: similarly 'on faith and with no...'
asciilifeform must bbl
mangol: http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-04-07#1093563 << afaict inertia is the decisive quality in most people. explains why people don't kill themselves, and countless other things.
bitbot: Logged on 2022-04-07 18:20:14 asciilifeform: phf: a, of course makes a diff. simply not convinced that 'serfs would've offed selves en masse if not for priest'
mangol: inertia is a more reliable, and a more parsimonious explanation, than religion
mangol: http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-04-07#1093600 << most people probably don't cause much trouble to their neighbors. the problem is at a higher level: most groups would overtake a neighboring group.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-05 21:55:08 asciilifeform: ... as otherwise 'the swine will overconsume'. but is bulk of bipeds necessarily swine ? imho unknown
mangol: (as far as building a society is concerned, that's the right benchmark imho. if someone doesn't cause trouble, what harm in keeping them? especially if inter-group competition is genetically programmed, and the guy is in your group)
signpost: mangol: that inertia keeps the immiserated alive, sure.
signpost: *immiserated and otherwise of astonishing wealth compared to most of human history.
mangol: signpost: also apropos, you've probably read nietzsche's thoughts on positive suicide (he called it "choosing your own time of death" iirc)
mangol: the idea that people should live as long as possible is at the root of much of the sickness in our culture
signpost: yep, but I don't need such defiance before nature to scare myself awake.
signpost: I agree with that muc.
mangol: i still don't understand why the people with the most content-free lives are the most frightened of losing them
signpost: less range of experience makes lesser pains more frightening.
signpost brb, cat politely informs me that I've forgotten to fill a bowl.
mangol: iron claw in a velvet paw
signpost: alrighty, seems pretty reasonable for content-free lives to fear death.
signpost: they wasted it.
mangol: wouldn't awareness of the waste make life even more painful, and thus death an even bigger relief?
phf: we were talking about how collective condemnation prevents suicide at end nodes, not about why the whole graph holds
signpost: mangol: no, relief assumes death's some kind of sleep you can know you're having.
phf: perchance to dream
signpost reconciles to lights-out. imagine how happy I'll be when I'm wrong.
asciilifeform cites the old saw where 'i have 1e10y of practice being dead, wasn't so bad'
mangol: if you buy into the idea that consciousness is imperishable, it's not clear what death even is. how is it different from life?
asciilifeform leaves that one to the believers
mangol: (i buy into the idea on logical grounds)
mangol: same thing as dream vs reality. reality is a dream from which you haven't woken up yet
mangol: i once or twice had a nested dream
signpost: all I have evidence for is the hard stop, so I have to pass over the rest in silence.
mangol: what's the hard stop?
asciilifeform: could be optimistic, incidentally. asciilifeform for instance aint sure that he 'conscious' for most of adult life.
mangol: it may be that people accustomed to a different worldview instinctively assume a different definition of consciousness
signpost: asciilifeform: seems a blanket definition to cover things not understood.
asciilifeform: signpost: purely subjective note
mangol: asciilifeform: you said something about "consciousness is a phlogiston" in logs some time. what does that mean?
mangol: phlogiston = hypothetical substance that causes fire?
asciilifeform again subjectively, was unemployed for ~yr >decade ago, and felt 'awake!', 'like when was 10yo', for some % of it, and not again since
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-04 23:08:39 signpost: felt UTTERLY AWAKE.
asciilifeform: mangol: aha
asciilifeform: speaking, again, of the subjective sensation of 'alive', the kind most folx feel lack of when e.g. not slept for week
asciilifeform: american 'mp' b.frankling likely meant sumthing in that vein when wrote 'most folx die at 30 but for some reason not buried till 70'
signpost would agree that whether or not there's such a thing as self-awareness, the meat robot's often happy to operate without it.
asciilifeform: 'happy' aint the word necessarily, but 'will operate' to some spec
verisimilitude: Automatic computing proves many tasks require no intelligence.
mangol: lol at franklin. nowadays would be "hate speech", deplatformed.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: a brick also reqs 0 'intelligence' to fall, lol
verisimilitude: I don't fear death, because it just means the misery will end at some point.
signpost waits for someone to show him the non-automaton part of himself
signpost: wait, I just did it. made a free choice right... here.
verisimilitude: I recommend signpost mail me his head in a box, and I'll get right to it.
mangol: verisimilitude: i don't undertand why all miserable people don't feel like you
signpost: see over text you folks were at least spared the fart that usually accompanies this line.
signpost: it's not all bad
asciilifeform: meanwhile in fishwraps, 'Airline explains why it's replacing planes with buses'
verisimilitude: Perhaps stupidity be the reason, mangol.
signpost: asciilifeform: soon, those sad things where the passengers all pedal and drink swill.
asciilifeform: but pay like to plane.
mangol: asciilifeform: not from The Onion or Babylon Bee?
asciilifeform: 'crossed parody horizon'
mangol: we're past the vanishing point
asciilifeform: loong ago
mangol: a little late to the party, they had "flying" buses in the sixties
mangol: "Furthur", etc.
asciilifeform: mangol: in what sense 'flying' ?
asciilifeform: ( occasional bus 'flies' when off cliff but assuming some other sense ? )
mangol: in the sense of consciousness, where you truly feel alive. more than an airline flight, at any rate
asciilifeform: a, lsd bus
asciilifeform not ridden
vex: american could depressurize the bus, so the little packet of pringles swells up like in the air
asciilifeform: or make folx stand for 4h in 'seekoority' arse search queue
asciilifeform: to 'feel like airline'
asciilifeform assumed this is already included..
signpost: seems like this is "behind security" on both ends?
mangol: a higher-order parody horizon will be crossed when they have airport security at the grocery store checkout
asciilifeform: hey, standing in line at airport only to find bus waiting in place of plane, aint so diff from other modern-day switcheroos, e.g. where you think yer buying a $device but actually 'subscription to license' etc
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-02-24 13:01:11 asciilifeform: still lulzy tesla-style 'you'll own nuffin and be happy'(tm)(r)(c) scamola
mangol: recursive parody horizons, that sounds like it should be a borges story
verisimilitude: So, first pronouns are attacked, then ``woman'', and now ``flight''.
asciilifeform: before long, 'i wanna fly on a plane that actually leaves the ground' will be in same nuthouse as e.g. asciilifeform's 'i'd like a non-mdf furniture'
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-02-15 16:59:16 asciilifeform: 'actual' as in not mdf/particleboard/whatever other names ersatz wood goes by.
signpost: at least meaning collapse is funny.
mangol: the self esteem movement for vehicles
signpost: how long before they have some poor syrian dude ride in the shit tank of the bus to do terrorisms on the next plane?
asciilifeform: it's 1 of the few ways to 'make megabux' nao -- take $thing and cheapen it into $substitute, then set up so that 'only terrorists!11' would demand the orig. $thing
asciilifeform: i.e. 'termiting'
mangol: imho one of the funniest things about the decline is how eagerly the hard left anarchists and post-hippies will act as megacorp thugs, given a chance to virtue signal
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-24 16:22:27 asciilifeform: the captives are captive anyway; some % of 'aspirational class' suck davos cock eagerly, on acct of some oddball stockholm syndrome where they get to feel 'as if on soros's yacht' while doing so
asciilifeform: see also e.g. kapos in concentration camps
signpost: a lot of these are mentally ill, eager for any reason to smash shit.
asciilifeform: ( quite often outdid the germans by long shot )
signpost: they're animals.
signpost: mangol: in e.g. portland, there's no coherent political ideology. punks in the street are self-selected mutants with no vitamin d and way too much weed.
signpost: the arson and smashing are burning off base anxiety.
mangol: ^ all are reasonable theories
asciilifeform: for over9000 folx, no need for 'ideology' beyond basic formula 'psst, guess who's the reason you aint on a yacht? ~that~ guy over ~there~. go smash'
mangol: substitute 'yacht' for social status in the abstract, and that's it
signpost: yep, "why do I hate myself"
mangol: for middle class students, it's often simply about being utterly useless to the world and/or ignored by it
signpost: I mean, many of these aren't middle class
mangol: for aspirational 15%, tfw no yacht invitation
signpost: lots of them fell out of the service industry in covid
mangol: for poor people, probably more directly about bare sustenance
signpost: they were doing coke to get through shifts and smoking weed to get 6hrs sleep.
asciilifeform: characteristically, and in line w/ historical norm, the angriest folx aint the 'how do i make rent' but the 'grandfather had a farm, father had a house, i have 200k$ 'college' debt' people
signpost: defo newly poor.
signpost: with 100% knowledge that grandfather's mechanism was destroyed.
signpost: makes me want to reword. if it's ideology, it's ideology of the damned, with no sense that things could get better.
signpost: "you're coming with me, bitch"
asciilifeform: reich quite effective at convincing'em that 'it simply Happened, for Reasons'
mangol: yep - a lot of the "cultured" leftists -- totally cool that there's an elite clubhouse, but seething that this iteration of the racket won't let me in
mangol: reich convinced me for a long time that Things are Complicated (TM)
asciilifeform: 'stole the sense of having been stolen from'(tm)(r)(mp)
verisimilitude: Why ``cultured'' and not ``leftists''?
asciilifeform: mangol: rather like how in particular case of softwarism, 'see, there's no such thing as correct proggy, because Things Are Complicated dontchaknow'
verisimilitude: My heart rate just rose a little, asciilifeform.
mangol: asciilifeform: yep. academia = Things Are Complicated (fine print: but you should do as i say anyway -- hire me as a consultant for details) over9k times
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-31 20:30:08 asciilifeform: there's old joak where frogs hire a consultant, to tell'em 'how do we avoid being eaten'. owl consultant goes to desk, thinks, next day comes back w/ fat bill and answer. 'become hedgehogs'. frogs: 'how do we become hedgehogs?' owl -- 'i'm a strategic consultant, not a tactical one'
mangol: http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-04-07#1093884 << cultured leftists are the subspecies in the arts and employed in academia. there are still communities where it's high status to be uncultured
bitbot: Logged on 2022-04-07 22:59:24 verisimilitude: Why ``cultured'' and not ``leftists''?
asciilifeform: mangol: could ask 'in what sense these cultured'
mangol: cultured leftists' strategy is to rise in the ranks as individuals, uncultured to rise as a group (e.g. larp of traditional class struggle)
asciilifeform: typically their 'cultured' has same relation to the genuine article as mdf has to wood
mangol: asciilifeform: in the sense of fake sophistication. big words, money, fame.
asciilifeform: most rank&file nyt victims innocent of either dough or fame
asciilifeform: (in fact typically 1e6 or moar $ in the hole)
asciilifeform: err, 1e5
mangol: but given the impression that money and fame are tantalizingly within reach
mangol: reich's carrot dangling provess leaves nothing to be desired
asciilifeform aint convinced that even the dimmest are all that convinced of reality of 'the carrot'
asciilifeform: is the focus of over9000 religious rituals, yes
mangol: convinced on a behavioral level is what counts
asciilifeform: but how much faith? nfi
mangol: rituals - exactly
mangol: behaviorism is alive and well
asciilifeform: much of the behaviour is ritualistic, rather than necessarily result of faith
mangol: one could even argue that ritual is a kind of faith of the body
mangol: and as such, could be more sincere than most faith of the mind
mangol: banality is usually sincere since it's so low status
signpost: more/less what I meant about will to live.
mangol: right on
signpost: do "I" want to? the bundle of cultural narratives I'm hallucinating?
asciilifeform: point being, that when stalin had to appoint a fellow to ring bell to ask audience to stop clapping, was not necessarily because ecstatic believers just couldnt get enuff of their joy
signpost: no, the meat does, and I obey it on autopilot.
signpost: I could defy this by killing myself, and I'd still be admitting it by the rebellion against.
mangol: money and fame = high status, pursuit of same = low status. behavior sustained by elaborate machinery in the mind to fail to notice the difference
verisimilitude: I want to share something which disgusted me.
verisimilitude: would you say so called "influencer" / "creator" marketing is more valuable nowadays as a result? Getting people behind you who have a trusted audience seems like the only way to combat this problem, I just don't know that its a serviceable business per se?
phf: what is that vex said, stop watching tv
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: main victims of spam are the spammers
asciilifeform: (who work to the bone, while hated by all, and when starve, replaced with next crop, who 'heard from friend of friend where Sure Profit...' )
verisimilitude: That's fair enough, phf.
asciilifeform: 'if yer eating it, it's For You'(tm)(r)(tlp)
mangol: verisimilitude: i savor this New Cynicism of the hipsters. dropped the pretense of postmodern irony entirely.
vex: verisimilitude also told me to put down the bottle. hard to wean of cheap thrills.
signpost: most of the derps on that site are paid handsomely by ad money, or aspire to be.
verisimilitude: It just reminded me of the importance of the WoT, since capitalists are motivated to poison every human relationship.
asciilifeform: signpost: handful of kapos paid, others 'aspiring'
asciilifeform: same mechanism as how 'judas goat' is used in slaughterhouse.
phf: vex: i like my sins like my virtues, traditional
verisimilitude: Look, if there were a Liveleak for programmers, I'd be watching that instead.
vex: I've had what I assume is a similar why was I not informed? experience. I'd recently commissioned myself as master and commander of a modest sailing ship, and found myself in a state of perfect joy. I think I was almost able to utter those very words.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-06 15:05:24 phf: i /know/ that i'm turning annoying about the whole horse thing, but i'd be honest, after the first few months of riding i had very much the feeling of "why was i not informed!"
mangol: (somewhat earlier, the hipsters a movement called New Sincerity - that's how cynical that racket is)
signpost: vex: hell that's nice to hear, man.
verisimilitude: Sail safely, vex.
phf: vex: awesome
vex: almost like the ancients whisper "aha"
verisimilitude: The Latin word for boat is NĀVIS and to sail is NĀVIGĀRE.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: why the Ā's ?
signpost: he's adding the long-vowel marks
asciilifeform: i dunrecall seeing the linenoise barf on pompei stones
mangol: the word "govern" - from Latin gubernare to steer, govern, from Greek kybernan
verisimilitude: Occasionally, they did add marks, asciilifeform.
verisimilitude: He who govers is GVBERNĀTOR, yes.
mangol: the governator
mangol: they had one in california
signpost: vex: named your ship?
vex: It came with one signpost
phf: apropos boat naming, will only be amusing to asciilifeform https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj-V-F9dfrE
verisimilitude: What did the signpost say, then?
asciilifeform: phf: timeless classic
asciilifeform rewatched in fact recently
vex: When looking at boats for sale, quite are few are `nope, not saying that on the radio'
asciilifeform: ( for english folx, song from cult su cartoon. 'how you name the yacht, such it will sail.' init. they make it 'Победа', 'victory', then coupla letters fall off, get 'беда' -- 'calamity' )
mangol: http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-04-07#1093920 << iirc "captive audience" is an established term of art as well
bitbot: Logged on 2022-04-07 23:15:32 verisimilitude: would you say so called "influencer" / "creator" marketing is more valuable nowadays as a result? Getting people behind you who have a trusted audience seems like the only way to combat this problem, I just don't know that its a serviceable business per se?
mangol: "According to a study of New York Times articles conducted by the Wharton Business School, the most compelling content created by the magazine were the pieces that evoked an emotional response."
verisimilitude: Never forget that modern advertising can be traced to Freud.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: moar proximately, goebbels
asciilifeform: father of modern advertising.
verisimilitude: No, Edward Bernays was Freud's nephew.
mangol: there's even some philosophical wank about how advertising is good for you, since without it you wouldn't know how good it feels to desire some consumer product
asciilifeform: heroin similarly, lol
mangol: utilitarianism is an inexhaustible lulzcow
mangol: one of those ideas that comes back every decade or few under a brand new identity
asciilifeform finds e.g. old american ads often interesting -- 'who doesn't want a money mint in his basement. general electric furnace saves 80 cents a day or yer money back!' etc
asciilifeform: used to be, fulla claims (tru or not -- but concrete)
mangol: yeah. it's quite eye-opening
asciilifeform: the ads in '70s-'80s enthusiast publications (e.g. 'scientific american' before plebification) also interesting, in different light
mangol: ah, the microwriter. was an informative post
asciilifeform: was interesting to see ads for, e.g., 'trs-80', and over9000 similar but 100% forgotten micros
asciilifeform: 0 resemblance to today's ipnoje ads etc
phf: asciilifeform: speaking of ads, recently learned that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlAHU0Kk0vw is a true story, it's taken from golytsin's memoirs
asciilifeform: verisimilitude i suspect would appreciate, how the people in these ads (when pictured people) look like people, rather than 'blm' poster
mangol: can't take a C64 out to starbucks to hang out with spot on ethnic / gender diverse group of friends. could conveicably take a microwriter for hipster cred.
mangol: (only one letter difference between "cred" and "credo")
asciilifeform: phf: a++
vex: what are they saying?
phf: vex: it's an encounter between suvorov, count and a general, and yekaterina ii. the man was being unfashionably pious in his lent by refusing to eat and drink before the first star appeared in sky. the empress responded with a jest by awarding him one of the order sigil stars
asciilifeform: vex: ad for (long-defunkt) ru bank 'imperial'. was gonna expand but phf ^ beat to it
asciilifeform: 'give suvorov a star!'
vex: many thanks good sirs
verisimilitude: Yes, I'd rather see people in advertisements.
verisimilitude: Plenty of advertisements nowadays are meant to demoralize in addition to other things.
verisimilitude: Recall how an Apple advertisement had a mystery-meat child ask ``What's a computer?'' at the end, as if utter ignorance be desirable.
asciilifeform: demoralize the demoralizable, troll the trollable
mangol: one of the enduring archetypes in that vein is the "doofus dad"
verisimilitude: Paging adlai, how are the advertisements in the promised land?
asciilifeform seen korean ads, and memorably bizarre -- e.g. 3d hot chix, rippling with sweat, swings fist towards viewer in a boxing ring. cut to photo of a pnoje.
mangol: presumably fewer ads featuring mixed race families in .il
asciilifeform: vex: lol saw the sodimm and thought 'hm finally an rk w/ expandable ram?' then 'mnope, yet anuther cpu-on-sodimm + periphs snoar board'
asciilifeform: over9000 of these
asciilifeform: infamous 'blob to boot, blob to run' shitchipset, and over9000 aggressively pushed by vendor for decade+ nao
phf: asciilifeform: can also put in risc-v if so desire, TBF. (i had a moment of weakness, was contemplating it, eventually realized that it's utter trash)
vex: apparenylt the plastic is shitastic also
asciilifeform: phf: prolly could, if can get 1 for the socket.
phf: asciilifeform: no no i mean they sell it
asciilifeform: ( but wainot an actual mb ? )
vex: risc is new
asciilifeform: never understood wai no one ever sold a pc-style mb for'em
asciilifeform: y'know, the kind that eats standard ram, standard pci/pcie, ports, etc
asciilifeform had one w/ a xilinx where cpu normally lives
mangol: is riscv's niche different from mips?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-02-03 00:29:41 verisimilitude: RISC-V is a stupid cult of masturbating academics who think spending ten years on the description of a shitty toy instruction set is anything resembling a reasonable action; it's naught, but stupidity.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-02-02 13:40:41 asciilifeform: PeterL: originally riscvism was a licensetard 'reaction' to the mips patents
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-02-01 20:43:52 asciilifeform: vaguely suspects that the riscv thing is, for lack of a better term, a 'stopper' -- i.e. exists to occupy the market niche just enuff to prevent the appearance of the real thing.
mangol: but now mips is open too?
asciilifeform: mangol: last mips patent expired many yrs ago
verisimilitude: In nearly every instance I observe an old computer architecture discussed, I read it being described as a RISC; it's irrelevant how many instructions are available, their forms, or what operations they perform, as is how much memory was available to its machines; it will likely be described as a RISC.
verisimilitude: `` I've also seen the supposedly rare CISC be described as RISC, because it's ``RISC internally''; this dissonance of ideas that would lead to idiots giving everything a meaningless label makes sense when these idiots are correctly identified as cultists. There's a compulsion to colour everything with a particular shade, so the dominion of the cult becomes the world. This is a general pattern of note.''
asciilifeform: 'riscv' is effectively mips cosmetically mutilated to get around orig. patent; but in actual practice was an 'openwashing' scheme to push vendorlockwares of various flavours
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-10-25 13:15:43 asciilifeform: bonechewer: there's this variety of 'pseudo-open source' that is esp. pestilential in re: hardware -- y'know, where 'you can have the src, but all you can do with it is gawk because missing x,y,z,p,q,r essential parts, with various excuses'
asciilifeform: incl. xilinx's 'periph cores' and other 'well here's a cpu , but whatcha gonna do w/out sdram, nic, etc, here's ours'
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-10-25 13:11:41 asciilifeform: bonechewer: what's the newsworthy part ? there's already 'over9000' riscv already posted, and some even fit in ice40. (the issue with all of these is that they either fit in ice40, xor have decent performance. typically for the latter relies on various proprietary ram controllers & other periphs not included in src)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-10-25 13:16:12 asciilifeform: 'oh of course it doesn't have a sdram controller, we licensed altera's' etc
mangol: from wikipedia MIPS article:
mangol: In December 2018, Wave Computing, the new owner of the MIPS architecture, announced that MIPS ISA would be open-sourced in a program dubbed the MIPS Open initiative. The program was intended to open up access to the most recent versions of both the 32-bit and 64-bit designs making them available without any licensing or royalty fees as well as granting participants licenses to existing MIPS patents.
mangol: In March 2019, one version of the architecture was made available under a royalty-free license, but later that year the program was shut down again.
mangol: In March 2021, Wave Computing announced that the development of the MIPS architecture has ceased. The company has joined the RISC-V foundation and future processor designs will be based on the RISC-V architecture. In spite of this, some licensees such as Longsoon continue with new extension of MIPS-compatible ISAs on their own.
asciilifeform: a very common flavour of scamsauce, reminiscent of e.g. intel's 'open source bios' (which built only on mswin and w/ 400MB of blobs)
mangol: literally 400MD?
mangol: i.e. not hyperbole
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-02-01 21:35:09 asciilifeform: fond of mips , w/ exception of the liquishit instrs w/ unaligned byte and 'halfword' access; fuck unaligned loads.
verisimilitude: That's tiny nowadays, mangol.
asciilifeform: mangol: actually weighed moar, but iirc at least that
asciilifeform: mangol: see, btw, asciilifeform's mips (kudos to phf for keeping that mirror, btw) -- most of what's in the mips dun need to exist at all
mangol: M, yes
asciilifeform: ^ will disappoint folx who learned mipsism from schoolbook, e.g. hennesey
phf: obligatory lone tear for SPARC, which /is/ both open and royalty free, but too lovely of a design to actually develop
asciilifeform once managed to actually build & enxilinx 'opensparc'
verisimilitude: I've heard good things about implementing Lisp under Sparc, yes.
verisimilitude: I'm joking.
verisimilitude: Personally, I think the SH architecture and the NEC V50 look nice.
verisimilitude: Knuth's MMIX is particularly nice, but doesn't exist as a chip.
phf: last sparc i worked with https://navspark.mybigcommerce.com/navspark-arduino-compatible-development-board-with-gps/
asciilifeform: phf: ha, i've a 'riscv' thing from apparently same vendor that loox physically identical. but unsurprise given that they're actually chinese fpga (altera clone, sadly 100% closed toolchain) demo boards
asciilifeform: so 1 has a riscv, 1 -- sparc, possib others
asciilifeform: iirc the fpga turd is actually reflashable, w/ the toolkit in principle could load own
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: personally moar interested in taking all that crystal real estate and planting sumthing useful in place of the fucktarded mmu / tlb logic, e.g. iron gc
verisimilitude: A systolic array is neat.
asciilifeform: ( who the fuck needs mmu if pointers never exposed to user , and if he wants to 'jail' a process, can simply evaluate its sexpr in an env where symbols are bound how he likes )
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: some things neat from 'great pyramid of cheops is neat' pov, but not so much from pov of someone who has to inhabit
verisimilitude: It's APL in hardware.
asciilifeform: afaik mostly used in gpu & similar , where nought to do w/ apl, naodays
verisimilitude: One thing is certain to me: People should avoid designing hardware without a real problem to guide it.
asciilifeform: gotta be careful when thinking 'x is y-in-hardware'. is it?
asciilifeform: or is simply sumbody's misguided idea of how to 'hardwarize' y
asciilifeform: or is entirely other thing, and through wishful thinking reader thinks 'aah finally y in hardware'
verisimilitude: Most systolic array designs are for neural network nonsense, nowadays.
asciilifeform: proper 'hardwarization' actually eliminates complexity, rather than merely moving it
asciilifeform: take nn. e.g. the '80s attempts to bake ~analogue~ nn (i.e. outta op amps in vlsi) -- actually reduces the complexity, and devonneumannizes . the current-day crapolade -- not so much
phf: was expecting tmsr to fully move onto oberon eventually
verisimilitude: That can be a matter of perspective.
verisimilitude: I've seen an analog neural network design lately.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: for sale, and w/ datashit ?
asciilifeform: ( or, lol, in 'paper' ? )
phf: asciilifeform: it was a college project somebody published, so yeah paper
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-07#1094070 << at this pt, imho, all the heft dragging from the obese lardcarcass of current-day comp is a problem per se
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-07 20:20:07 verisimilitude: One thing is certain to me: People should avoid designing hardware without a real problem to guide it.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-17 14:14:26 asciilifeform: behold, e.g. pci bus init on x64 pc. book-length horror.
verisimilitude: ``The hardware can floorb as quickly as possible; wait, do I need to floorb?''
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: aha, see above re e.g. tlb
asciilifeform: ( iirc up to 10-20% of modern-day cpu die -- tlb cache ! )
dulapbot: (trilema) 2018-11-15 asciilifeform: and buncha crapola -- page table, floating point, etc. that simply dun need to exist.
asciilifeform: ( a 'feature' which makes approx as much sense as ibm's 'bcd' )
phf: can replace with lambda calculus
asciilifeform: even if you work on thermonuke sims, if yer numerics people can't work in integer arithm to do whatever, fire'em and get new ones
asciilifeform: hire e.g. carmack, with his integer quake.
asciilifeform: and recall infamous 'fdiv bug'. say, if instead of that nonsense, had rational arithmetic tower ?
verisimilitude: Take my NaN from my NaN you NaNs!
verisimilitude: Joking aside, none of my programs touch floating point.
asciilifeform: ( or recall the webtards' beloves js, where 1-1+1-1... after not long gives you an 'epsilon' )
asciilifeform: *beloved js
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-05 16:33:59 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-05#1093063 << the lispms had proper lower case. ( legend has it, 'dark age' irons which had only enuff rom for 1 font case, initially were to have the moar readable lower, but some churchgoing type objected, 'we oughtnt write the lord's name in lowercase'...)
vex: 1995 angelina jolie had never heard of it
vex: were they sitting in coffee shops in that movie?
asciilifeform not gets the ref
phf: cool? it sounds like a bunch of communist propaganda to me
vex: someone mentioned the 1995 movie hackers in your chan days ago. unless I dreamed it
vex: java indeed. call the thing sulaweisi
vex lost the plot. bbl
vex: wasnb't there a hot ny minute when woke meant the opposite?
vex: and Q was real?
vex: speaking of fishwrap.. whats coingeek up to?
vex takes a noon sight
vex: close enuff
vex: I exist aprox where I thought
phf: vex: woke started on the black fringe, and indicated being awake and aware of the hidden history. i've not actually heard woke being used to mean awareness of racial issues, maybe because people i was talking to were polite, or maybe it was grafted on later on. popular subjects were raw foodism, we waz kangs, or ((they)) keeping the black man down.
vex: I've never heard that one before
phf: in fact the kind of shit i talked to with woke blacks was the kind of stuff you later heard in qanon circles, it's basically robert anton wilson grade jambalaya of conspiracy theories. those conversations were always great fun, because it's like reading philip k dick, but live, and the person riffing has a very different perspective on this things. "see, brother, the jews, they killed jfk, because he was going to liberate the
phf: brothers. read rev. washington t. black, he talks about it!"
phf: shit, one of the early in person bitcoin conversations i had was with one of those post-MOVE west philadelphia black guys, who described every kind of food as either being pranic or not. he started telling me about bitcoin, on account of how it'll liberate the brothers from the jew bankers
phf: so these guys will say "stay woke" meaning "you're clearly aware of what's /really going on/ and i approve of that, carry on"
vex: phf comes correctly
vex: nya slave
asciilifeform oughta add echo for phf's linx ( observe, they correctly tunnel to asciilifeform's logism ) but loathe to restart bot
asciilifeform: !q uptime
dulapbot: asciilifeform: time since my last reconnect : 295d 23h 48m
asciilifeform: ( or phf plug bot in here ? )
asciilifeform was quite fond of phf's logotron, to this day not copied all the pheatures (e.g. backlinkage)
asciilifeform: (iirc ran w/out sqlism, even, 100% in mmap'd ram)
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's logotron ftr. there are also a coupla billymg mods that possibly aint in there
phf: asciilifeform: original cmucl version was mmaped, but when porting to sbcl due to frequent crashes had to make the whole thing in memory, which is also major reason why ia haven't expanded it. needs to be made mmaped again, to support multiple channels. otherwise unreasonably memory heavy
asciilifeform: unlikely 'memory heavy' stood next to e.g. trb, lol
phf: Dynamic space usage is: 479,119,344 bytes.
asciilifeform: toobig for my msdos box but otherwise svelte
phf: 500mb in memory! prepostrous!
asciilifeform: e.g. asciilifeform has iirc 4g cache set just for postgres. so stood next to ~that~, light..
asciilifeform running logotron & its www on 256g/32cpu hog. and still sometimes lags..
asciilifeform: it also runs 'dulapnet' but that weights next to nuffin
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-01 16:10:27 asciilifeform: ... for current shitpnoje wireless , is a visible to naked eye 'lolno'. but interestingly enuff asciilifeform's dc in fact delivered 'five nines' service in 2021. i.e. <6min of dead time in yr
asciilifeform: ... and costs 10x less than piz cage ( let's say 5x, moar exactly, given that there's ~half of errything )
phf: asciilifeform: do you ever experience a problem with mc, where f6 a folder from machine to machine, it moves the files but leaves the folder behind?
asciilifeform: phf: defo experienced, but iirc only on crapple
asciilifeform: ( why -- mystery )
signpost: maybe dotfile turds, .DS_Store or w/e?
asciilifeform: something peculiar re the fs , yea. iirc also seen on nfs mounts
verisimilitude: I was just reminded of the microplastics issue about which I can do naught.
vex: truth be told
asciilifeform: watsa 'microplastic' ?
verisimilitude: It was simply brought again to the forefront of my mind that we're constantly being poisoned.
verisimilitude: Apparently, plastic breaks down into microscopic particles that behave similarly to estrogen, asciilifeform.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: ~plasticizer~ seep
vex: tooling up for proper work is a lost art
signpost: can remove quite a lot of them by avoiding buying certain products
signpost: but yes, gonna be hard to get it out of the tap.
verisimilitude: I avoid plastics, but still.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: light organics added to plastics to make 'springy' (think 'water flasks' etc)
asciilifeform: they're only 'mostly' trapped in the solid, and on surface often enuff seeps out, esp. as it flexes
signpost uses filters that claim to remove 'em, and has silicone and glass for food containers
mats: think its a real stretch to say they all mimic estrogen
mats: considering how poorly understood they are
asciilifeform fwiw suffered continuous, yr-round allergy ever since came to usa. and when leaves -- stops. suspected all kindsa pollutants, but evidently culprit is something that is present in literally erry hotel room , house, etc in north a
asciilifeform: prolly not the plasticizers tho
asciilifeform: in re 'poisoned'
vex: buck up
signpost: mats: yeah, it's probably worse than such a simple answer.