mangol: crtdaydreams: congrats on the website. good selection of links.
mangol: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-23#1087591 << that's the joke. when most people get this vaunted "freedom", they'll use it to step on other people's freedom and evade responsibility for the consequences
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-23 20:12:46 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-23#1087554 << asciilifeform never grasped what underpins this meme -- where is this 'moar freedom'
mangol: so the quest for more freedom leads inevitably to less freedom
mangol: freedom for the tax office is to tax more people, freedom for the medical establishment is to sell more drugs to more people, etc.
mangol: you need really good genes to stick to the kind of tit-for-tat version of freedom that the theorists fantasize about
signpost: mangol: I've been getting a cloudflare error lately when I try to load archive.today/is/fo/ph
signpost: * mats
signpost: don't know what the deal is, works sometimes.
mangol: complete freedom --> survival of the fittest --> civilizational race to the bottom
signpost: https://community.cloudflare.com/t/archive-today-does-not-resolve-with-1-1-1-1-works-fine-on-other-resolvers/71315 << hah, what fuckers
signpost takes that out of the rotation.
signpost: ah satan bless him; he was a great preacher.
mats: bloomberg guys are right about the free trade agreements
mats: ive raved about the tpp for years
mats: but they havent accounted for the political disruption of bitcoin
signpost: iirc chinese manufacturing is almost 2x US.
mats: theres some hope yet that we can shift relatively bloodlessly into a multipolar order
signpost: "This week, Joe Biden is traveling to Europe as the leader of the newly united and reinvigorated free world." << bwahaha
signpost: we're going to have a huge recession, is what.
signpost: and they'll use helicopter money to keep the standard of living destruction out of the official stats.
mats: the germans have doubled their defense budget from 50 to 100bn after decades of endless whining about how they cant afford 2% of gdp
signpost: did that happen recently?
signpost: if so I bet that chaps the hell out of Trump.
mats: and the french have given up on their nonsense adventures in n africa and the sahel
mats: sorta forcefully, the new regime in mali kicked them out, and the iirc legionnaires are now in ro
mats: spent a long ass time fruitlessly fighting jihadists and transnational criminals without any consideration for the economic and ethnic origins underpinning regional conflicts
mats: yes, recently
crtdaydreams: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087601 << Thanks, more where that came from :)
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-24 02:16:08 mangol: crtdaydreams: congrats on the website. good selection of links.
signpost: mats: seems just like US to think that now's our chance to lead the world; what else would we say?
signpost: "Biden should pursue a two-stage strategy: First, deepen economic integration among like-minded nations; but leave the door open to autocracies if they become more flexible. China could be wooed toward freedom." << typical American inability to imagine people other than themselves, with different values.
mats: its difficult to sell people on the idea that a humbled usa, as merely another bit player on a map of players, would be good for the americans
mats: but i actually believe that pax americana could endure into the next century if it could see its way to giving up pretenses to planetary hegemony
mangol: the real dread may be that 'muricans end up seeing that a competing value system is better
signpost: I suppose in reading this as persuading a narcissist to believe that the empire shrinking is good, see what you're getting at.
mangol: empire of lies --> all lies come to an end at some point
signpost: they make the thing emitting them insane.
mats: usa can still dominate c/sudamerica, supply the world's deepest capital markets, be a first rate tax haven and resume being a first rate military power
signpost: sure, if you were writing *that* article I'd have agreed with you.
signpost: but I'm not the demo reader for bloomberg.
signpost: re: first rate military power we'd better finish a hypersonic platform. I think people are too terrified to mention the extent of the "missile gap" this time.
mats: help the europeans to stand on their own, to push the russians and chinese back, nurture brazil, iran, turkey, india's economic dominance
mangol: is there an actual method behind the madness of current year reich foreign policy?
mangol: everything they do seems insane, but ru is having a difficult time in ukr
mats: if there's a method beyond accelerationism, i don't see it
signpost: stopping short of total war isn't easy.
signpost wagers asciilifeform's also right, and putin had to lie to his own chain of command in setting up the operation due to leaks and treachery.
mats: russia's armed forces will have a better time once they have control of mariupol
signpost tapping out. later y'all.
mangol: mats: afaict nato play was to drive up (economic & public relations) costs for ru as much as possible
mats: looks like its been very disorganised so far, fighting on three fronts in hopes they can break out in one to pincer with another
mangol: US and EU are a complete mess internally due to covid policy and other mistakes --> mess up RU as well
mangol: and provides a convenient distraction from interal fuckups in the news cycle
mats: i dunno, the covid policy seems like less of a disaster as time goes on
mats: the disorganized approach led to a rapid darwinian rise in cases, and now pretty much the whole population has it
mats: compare to china, which has been tremendously successful applying central power and brutally limiting spread of cases
mats: and now, iirc, the rapid rise of cases in hk now that it has been impossible to leash covid, is 4x the rate it ever was in usa
mangol: gutting the middle class, part xyz, this time on pretext of killer flu
mats: maybe straddling this middle ground between leaving things fully open, where it'd rip through the population and overwhelm hospitals, and totalitarian excellence of lockdowns, was the right call
mangol: billionaires made a killing (lol)
mangol: during covid
mats: i don't give a shit about the middle class
mangol: small businesses not so much
mangol: you don't give a shit about living in a stable society?
mats: i don't buy the premise that a monied middle class is necessary for a stable society
mats: as the knowledge gap grows, probably it is best that the socioeconomic inequality gap also grows
mats: i also don't buy the premise that living in a stable society is good for everyone
mangol: you think people will just suck it up forever? that they struggle to reproduce, own homes, and even to stay employed?
mats: what are they going to do about it?
mats: median person in the west can hardly remember where they placed their half eaten bag of chips in between hours of doom scrolling tiktok
mats: the advance of technology means it takes even less resources to manage ever larger numbers of people
mats: eventually there'll be some culling of the twits that take more than they give, societies will destabilise and then new ones will form
mats: most people who ever lived never had any money, i don't see why this is suddenly necessary because the year is 2022
mangol: how do you control hundreds of millions of people?
mangol: "lies" is the current answer. it's hard to keep escalating that forever
mats: for as long as it lasts, keep giving them shit food made of corn, and cheap drugs like tiktok nflx mcds thc opiates etc
mats: the industrial price of a metric ton of fent is tremendously low, think that atlantic piece said wholesalers were paying $1k usd per metric ton
mangol: the drugs don't work quite as well as they used to
mats: er, meth
mangol: the metaphorical drugs
mats: presumably fent is in the same range though
mats: the technological drugs work just fine
mats: those people don't have the wherewithal to carry a rifle or fight the police
mats: 40% of the us population is obese
mats: they can hardly throw a molotov cocktail further than they can lift a cheeseburger from a tv stand to their mouth
crtdaydreams: unrelated thread; mangol: what's your background? You seem to have a very good sense of computronics and the direction computing has headed (i.e. shitware, various unix-isms, bloat). Do have have a background in CS or working for corporate? Also, (I may have missed in the logs) do you have a website or some form of blog?
mangol: no blog or website. i can write if people have specific questions that they want a perspective on
crtdaydreams: ...wait you're the bipolar lisp programmer?!
crtdaydreams dies of shock
mangol: there's no "the" bipolar lisp prorammer. it's an archetype; we're all like that :)
crtdaydreams: er, conventionally yes.
crtdaydreams begins to wonder at what point he too became ``bipolar''
mangol: ime all idealists are bipolar, not just lispers
mangol: takes 20-30 years to find a palatable lifestyle
crtdaydreams: Interesting to be brought up write in the middle of crafting my first article for 0xcdd.com
mangol: and idealism is inborn afaict. can't think of anyone who suddenly "became" an idealist
crtdaydreams: brain fart. just been writing about ego and persona so you're practically handing me material on a plate here
mangol: the security field is full of bipolars, but they are blessed in that the field is about breaking things. you break something popular, you're cool.
crtdaydreams: Hm. That's a debate for nature vs nurture though. Inborn to what extent?
mangol: bipolar coders are cursed because we wanna build stuff, not break. appetite grows. once you've built a house, you wanna build a cathedral.
crtdaydreams: I.e. early childhood fosters the curiosity and creativity req. for idealism.
mangol: which means you have to convince lots of talented people to do something hard for a long time. famously hard
crtdaydreams: Yeah. I getcha. Big time.
mangol: ime, "idealism" levels of curiosity and creativity are almost completely inborn
crtdaydreams: Perhaps a certain amount of restraint on the brain-to-keyboard is required to filter all the nil thoughts and ideals as I've recently experience first hand.
mangol: parents, friends, school, work try every trick in the book to cramp your style and get you back in line. you suffer but it still doesn't work.
crtdaydreams: Well that's relatively late into childhood. I consider childhood to be <8yo
crtdaydreams: At a young age it's evident that some children are more ``ripples'' than ``waves'' and won't accomplish much. But those that are ``waves'' will only make a splash if they're pushed by sufficient external factors.
mangol: idk. i've met idealistic people who were clearly encouraged as kids, and there's people like me who were not. some scolded even worse than me.
mangol: the encouraged ones are happier and more confident, but the discouraged ones have exactly the same inner drive
mangol: discouraged ones suffer constantly but still do the same stuff as the happy ones
crtdaydreams: I would argue there's a line there. Encouragement or discouragement won't foster the kind of independent creativity of the ``lisper'' archetype.
mangol: yep, independence is inborn
crtdaydreams: What it amounts to is the kind of stimuli.
mangol: can be trained to some degree, but not to the lisper degree
crtdaydreams: imo ``training'' is for dogs. It's like pumping data into a neural net and flagging the response +ve or -ve.
mangol: works well on humans too
mangol: pavlov - that name rings a bell
crtdaydreams: Arguably. Perhaps I'm arguing completely against my point.
crtdaydreams: I don't want to take the easy way out though and shrug it off with "mebbe it's a mix of both?"
crtdaydreams: No. I have to agree. Genetics must play the decisive factor in dependence. Both in stimuli and creative thought.
crtdaydreams: slehp time. \o
mangol: ime independence can be cultivated, but only a little bit. independence as a default mode of thought and action is inborn. but my sample isn't extensive
mangol: virtually all good lispers are at the freak end of the independence curve
mangol: whence tarver's essay
mangol: see also The Four Quadrants of Conformism, recent essay by PG (a high-functioning bipolar lisper)
mangol: an interesting thought experiment is that a bunch of lispers would probably btfo of most other coders in a "survival" scenario
mangol: i.e. all the software in the world has died mysteriously and your group has to bootstrap the world from bits
mangol: the survival aspect would force them to cooperate and do grunt work. the disinclination to do these 2 things causes our downfall in conditions of abundance
mangol: also curious re: psychology, it's possible to be kind and independent-minded. those people can have most of their independence beat out of them in social circumstances, but it'll seek other outlets
mangol: crtdaydreams if you've met some people who suddenly became more independent, it's virtually certain that they were always independent, and merely became socially confident
mangol: crtdaydreams: re Second Climacs, do you still have enthusiasm for Emacs modernization? if so, please talk to me (via /query if too much spam for #a). i have some ideas.
mangol: strandh is a great asset for lisp, but very loyal to his priorities which are somewhat research'y
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087602 << barfed at the inevitable gdp (crock o'shit which fraudulently equates 'intellectual property' and money-printing to physical production) and 'freedom index' idiocy
asciilifeform: reich evidently will snort own stash all the way to wagner/cyanide finale
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087624 << sop since '70s
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-24 02:47:29 signpost: and they'll use helicopter money to keep the standard of living destruction out of the official stats.
billymg: http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087741 << shame, it means you didn't make it to this gem: "Freedom is the creed of heroes such as Zelenskiy; anti-liberalism is the creed of monsters who drop bombs on children."
bitbot: Logged on 2022-03-24 14:10:42 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087602 << barfed at the inevitable gdp (crock o'shit which fraudulently equates 'intellectual property' and money-printing to physical production) and 'freedom index' idiocy
billymg: mats: why not apply this sink or swim philosophy to how well one is able to handle the coof, instead of the excellence of lockdowns?
bitbot: Logged on 2022-03-24 07:20:57 mats: as the knowledge gap grows, probably it is best that the socioeconomic inequality gap also grows
bitbot: Logged on 2022-03-24 07:16:34 mats: maybe straddling this middle ground between leaving things fully open, where it'd rip through the population and overwhelm hospitals, and totalitarian excellence of lockdowns, was the right call
billymg: the way you say, fuck the mentally weak, let them starve, i would say fuck the immunologically weak, let them die
billymg: http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087693 << "The trouble was that none of the 9 were properly documented and none were bug free. Basically each person had implemented his own solution and it worked for him so that was fine. This is a BBM attitude; it works for me and I understand it. It is also the product of not needing or wanting anybody else's help to do something."
bitbot: Logged on 2022-03-24 09:24:52 mangol: crtdaydreams: https://www.marktarver.com/bipolar.html more or less
billymg: imo this is something we could work on
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087746 << could write a perl script to generate these goebbelsisms, and it'd be a short one
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-24 10:58:25 billymg: http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087741 << shame, it means you didn't make it to this gem: "Freedom is the creed of heroes such as Zelenskiy; anti-liberalism is the creed of monsters who drop bombs on children."
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087746 << apparently they've dropped the pretense that they consider middle easterners human.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-24 10:58:25 billymg: http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087741 << shame, it means you didn't make it to this gem: "Freedom is the creed of heroes such as Zelenskiy; anti-liberalism is the creed of monsters who drop bombs on children."
asciilifeform: signpost: dropped all kindsa pretenses.
asciilifeform: the cancellation of middle class in the reich that mats was cheering for is moar or less the abandonment of the 'carrot', lizards appear to think 'stick' will suffice 4evah
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-24 03:16:03 mats: i don't give a shit about the middle class
signpost: this is ignorant of history, but w/e.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087689 << reich aint in some kinda 'ancient egyptian' static equilibrium tho. for instance, allegedly there's (or soon) a slowboat with 100k ukrs on its way to usa. who rather different from the portrait given in all kindsa interesting ways.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-24 03:38:20 mats: 40% of the us population is obese
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-24 03:40:41 mats: they can hardly throw a molotov cocktail further than they can lift a cheeseburger from a tv stand to their mouth
signpost: also folks like to imagine they'll be on the winning side of that rotfest.
asciilifeform: not to mention the mexicans et al who already here, came for 'carrot'
signpost: apparently can still pick up kalash, which is more than can be said for the beoble of walmart
signpost: https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/ukraine-blocks-trans-women-refugees-they-are-men-must-go-back-fight << bwahahahaha
billymg: signpost: saw that, kek
signpost: who will take our lgbtqlmnop when we lose world war 3?
signpost recently learned of the "poseidon" system of stealth underwater nukes, apparently meant to send an irradiated wave over a city
signpost: also while we're on it, medvedev had sane-sounding things to say re: why the fuck anyone would want to destabilize russia given what weapons it would leave in resulting failed states.
asciilifeform: signpost: according to legend, 'america washer' was 1st proposed in '50s.
signpost: straightforward idea, tsar bomba in a sneaky torpedo, sploosh!
asciilifeform: when unveiled on ru tv in '17, was widely laffed off as '3d cartoon, lol'. similarly laffed off the 'dagger' hypersonic rocket which one can nao watch, complete w/ plasma cloud, on lolcattube
asciilifeform: ( for thread-completeness, the ad had a # of other 'cartoons' the subjects of which not yet observed in the wild: poseidon, a laser gun, coupla other )
signpost: yup, serious weapons, and fielded. iirc the last US hypersonic test broke apart.
asciilifeform: 'idjit orcs, can only make cheap cartoons' etc
signpost: hell, we should've been friends. we'd be on mars already.
asciilifeform: it's rather similar imho to this kinda thinking -- 'eh they're untermenschen, we can fuck'em however we like and what are they gonna do about it?'
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-24 03:40:41 mats: they can hardly throw a molotov cocktail further than they can lift a cheeseburger from a tv stand to their mouth
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-24 03:21:41 mats: what are they going to do about it?
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-16#1084990 << question isn't whether "we" can hit back. all RU-sphere discussion I can find is of the "why would you destroy us, such that this will happen?"
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-16 18:51:21 verisimilitude: What's a nuclear submarine, signpost?
signpost: they're not the suicidal party at the table.
signpost: asciilifeform: yep I can see it.
asciilifeform: historically the joak tends to be on the folx who snort own stash and decide 'the current order is the eternal natural order', 'we are the master race'
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-24 03:20:12 mats: as the knowledge gap grows, probably it is best that the socioeconomic inequality gap also grows
asciilifeform: 'america had not come up with good strategists after ww2. they weren't needed. after all, it is always possible to print many green pieces of paper...'
asciilifeform: signpost: loox to be a decent enuff transl
signpost: I imagine 'walking field' was approx 'minefield'
signpost: "How do you like this prospect, gentlemen? Great plan! Bravo, strategists from the State Department and the Capitol! Bravo, K Street Analysts! Bravo, senior members of the Senate, bravo Mr. President! You have already lived your life, you can not be afraid, because at the age of 80 nothing is especially scary." << also a good zinger
asciilifeform: signpost: mno, 'гуляй-поле' (actual toponym in ukristan, where in ru civil war e.g. mahno's anarchists and other merry men) roughly 'free-for-all'
signpost: ah ok
asciilifeform: signpost: the 'controlled chaos' reich.strategy aint any kinda seekrit.
signpost: sure, this isn't revelatory.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-05 13:39:21 asciilifeform: raw_avocado: there's an old su joak re subj. 'scientists announce they have discovered a method to make black caviar from petroleum.' 'when can i buy this in the shop?' 'soon; spreading on bread -- already works! but as for eating, not quite yet...'
signpost: lol, yes
signpost reads these because they're more interesting than reading second-hand interpretations.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087776 << fwiw didn't stop'em in '90s. for that matter, usa to this day powered by sov-era pu obtained for ~phree
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-24 11:43:40 signpost: also while we're on it, medvedev had sane-sounding things to say re: why the fuck anyone would want to destabilize russia given what weapons it would leave in resulting failed states.
asciilifeform: orig. reich plan was evidently to set up ru 'colour revolution' in '14 (1st, via 'colour revolution' coup in ukristan; then by having the installed muppet proclaim a 'croat-style' forced assimilation, and when failed, attack -- east provinces; idea was, ru intervenes, sanctioned to death, bankrupt, leaves delish corpse for reich to feast on)
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-02-28 14:45:04 asciilifeform: at one pt, reich installed mole (gorby) and 'won', and feasted on the delish minerals + sawed-up su industrial base & manpower for all of '90s
signpost: asciilifeform: yep, plain as day.
signpost figures this is many of the same old bastards that were running plays since the cold war.
signpost: and ftr, soviets surely had similar objectives in e.g. central/south america.
asciilifeform: signpost: they weren't very good at south amer. considering results
signpost: not that it means anything; somebody needs to hit the brakes, and Putin certainly wanted to.
signpost knows a gent very well who was stomping around there on the nato side.
mats: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087785 << empirically we know it works on americans, unlikely forever, but few signs of malignant slave riots setting fires to the plantations
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-24 11:48:57 asciilifeform: it's rather similar imho to this kinda thinking -- 'eh they're untermenschen, we can fuck'em however we like and what are they gonna do about it?'
signpost: hilariously, the red necks who ostensibly would, are all walmart-fed soyboys now.
signpost: doubtful by accident.
asciilifeform: mats: atm the printola scam still worx, almost as well as before, folx still lining up go to go usa to pick strawberries in search of middle class miami. still 9000 brands of sausage at 'whole foods', half of population eats'em w/out doin' anyffin that can be described as work, etc
asciilifeform: 'night is young'
mats: my favorite Whole Foods snack is the brand freeze dried fruit
mats: very nice change from sun dried fruit, which has quite a bit more water left in it
mats: gotta be careful not to scarf the whole bag or I get a sugar headache though
asciilifeform: at some pt the favourite catalogue item will be pressed cockroach protein and some % of idjits, having watched old vhs movies, will still sail to miami
dulapbot: (trilema) 2016-01-08 ascii_butugychag: problem is that their notion of 'american' comes from 1980s vhs tapes
signpost: wont it be a bitch when somebody gets a tokamak running just as the candles are lit.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-11 08:30:47 asciilifeform: cgra: fact is, not even a sidewalk in usa gets paved w/out a bag of cash to mexicans.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-24 12:22:17 signpost: hilariously, the red necks who ostensibly would, are all walmart-fed soyboys now.
signpost figures the gods are these kind
signpost: asciilifeform: quite a bit of the soy-titted white chubkins working ag and oil
asciilifeform: signpost: ftr asciilifeform doubts that even simult. discovery of antigrav and coldfusion would change much re usa
signpost: they'll take whatever's done to them, apparently.
asciilifeform: these still wouldn't replace the missing working hands.
signpost: asciilifeform: I didn't say here!
asciilifeform: anywhere, lol
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-23#1087327 The sad thing here is how it's not even hard to write a real-time system in machine code for such a purpose; it's really obvious if the control flow gets utterly incomprehensible and unpredictable.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-23 12:33:59 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-23#1087293 << asciilifeform recalls qnx demo floppy from late '90s, was impressed; and came with all kindsa claims 'used in reactors!' etc. but closed mysteryware, and nfi whether in any sense 'alive' today, not that it'd help any
verisimilitude: I don't think a nuclear reactor is being used for too many separate purposes.
dulapbot: (trilema) 2016-08-30 asciilifeform: 'motivation from fear is a firecracker, from interest - a nuke' as the americans used to say
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-02-18 asciilifeform: (iirc we had a thread where i described how corporate ameritards, if given a problem like phuctor, would happily soak up a few $mil and megawatt of iron)
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-23#1087529 Most people can't handle freedom, mangol; it follows authoritarianism makes more sense than democracy, at this scale.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-23 15:11:11 mangol: most people can't handle liberty which will mess up the society. then the strong people come out of the woodwork
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: wouldn't it make moar sense to talk about 'most people can't handle' a thing that they've actually ~had~ at some pt and been observed to fail to handle ?
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087846 << the reactors afaik still running off pdp11 hand-asmware. e.g. boeing however cppized (to yachtize the difference, obv) and spectacular brick nao
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-24 12:35:47 verisimilitude: I don't think a nuclear reactor is being used for too many separate purposes.
dulapbot: (trilema) 2019-04-23 asciilifeform: tbf ~same can be said for usg, where -- similarly -- the only '100% uptime' items are pdp11/microvax/etc where likewise '70s-'80s lsi and likewise no net etc
verisimilitude: Does it matter, if they believe themselves to have it?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: they also believe that 'jizzus luvvs us' and all kindsa strange w/ very little connection to anyffin in observable reality
verisimilitude: That's my point.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: elaborate?
signpost: fwiw I consider the "freedom to fail and die" a worthwhile algo, built the largest empire ever to exist.
signpost: the american system rotted the more it abandoned that.
asciilifeform: errybody's got 'freedom to fail and die' neh? or whatami missing
signpost: the american turn into communism is what I'm referencing.
asciilifeform: 'to fail & die' is the 1 'freedom' left there, neh
signpost: fat lotta dole I can go ask for before that comes.
asciilifeform: afaik life in usa 'dole' is a kinda slow-motion execution by drink and corn 'beetus'(tm)
signpost: national suicide as well, so I can't disagree.
signpost oughta macroexpand then, to minimal state, private property, strong currency, no safety net, etc
signpost: but these under common law and broad franchise proceeded to present state, so gotta admit "was always broken"
asciilifeform: broke under fdr, in this model
asciilifeform: (w/ lengthy prelude of weakening, 'gilded age', long story)
signpost: was going to name that as a turning point, but nothing in the algo prevented FDRism either. yep.
asciilifeform: per asciilifeform's cosmography, the centralization (which, observe, ate ~all of planet3 ~simult.) was a technologically-inevitable, at given stage process.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-02-28 15:09:09 asciilifeform: PeterL: in 1900s, as inescapable consequence of industrialization planet3 was carved up into totalitarian reichs. these have gone and will continue to go by various names, issue costumes.
asciilifeform: 1880s-1910s, the great monopolies formed, inevitably merged w/ the state, 1 way or anuther
signpost: yep, I've considered that a reasonable model of yours.
asciilifeform: not original to asciilifeform ( was already ~obv pre-ww2 to over9000 folx )
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-29 20:28:09 asciilifeform: signpost: the possibility of 'non-communism' at the 20th c. tech level is imho an illusion -- a beautiful dream, if you like.
signpost expects next phase is approximately "biome of rotting whale carcass"
asciilifeform: in that phase since '70 or so
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-03-02 12:22:32 asciilifeform: ru writer alex rosov takes the thesis further -- he gives (fairly solid) argument that a decision was made (by bluebloods of 'civilized' world) in 1968 to halt technical progress. ( and, consequently, to nail sovok, because otherwise it'll eat'em, not having 'gotten the memo' that r&d must stop )
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-03-02 12:23:39 asciilifeform: semiconductor 'escaped' (again per this cosmography) because a) underestimated and poorly understood by the 'deciders' b) required minimal insight, was pushable 'forward' by sheer 'chinese' plodding, as still (to an extent) happening
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087859 They're ignorant and stupid.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-24 13:00:31 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: elaborate?
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087868 I've watched enough Chinese die due to a lack of government regulation to make me thankful for the big bad government getting in the way of those sweet and pure corporations and businessmen.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-24 13:06:31 signpost: oughta macroexpand then, to minimal state, private property, strong currency, no safety net, etc
verisimilitude: I've never been killed by an elevator closing on me, and then moving between floors.
verisimilitude: All property is usurpation, signpost. Whoever can take it, and defend it, owns it.
verisimilitude: Any society that values individualism such as that is just going to be overtaken by a similar society, but one in which the same type of people decide to team up for the purpose of destroying it.
verisimilitude: I'd like to be one of those such people, actually.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087887 << we're all smart enough to avoid falling into idiotic categories such as these.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-24 13:21:30 verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087868 I've watched enough Chinese die due to a lack of government regulation to make me thankful for the big bad government getting in the way of those sweet and pure corporations and businessmen.
signpost: "big bad govt" and "sweet and pure corporations"
signpost: and of course all peace means the cessation of a prior state of violence.
signpost: usually upon mutually beneficial terms if lasting.
verisimilitude: My point is ``small government'' is a stupid want.
verisimilitude: I was mocking it, signpost.
verisimilitude: The age of ``small government'' has ended for the foreseeable future.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: the point apparently lost on many is that its size is outcome of a natural process. 'demand small gov' is like to demand that rats be small. in steppe -- small; in dumpster behind mcshitburger joint -- dog-sized; simply function of feed base avail.
signpost: minimal does not mean the same thing as small.
signpost: curious how you apply this standard readily to works on a computer but not this.
verisimilitude: Any ``small government'' will be owned by a ``big government'', without exception.
signpost: perhaps the minimal possible state is larger than this one, even.
signpost: if you don't wish to listen, what do I care.
verisimilitude: Explain the difference, then.
asciilifeform: state is a tumour, it dun shrink by being asked nicely.
signpost: minimal means closest to the abstract form of the problem it solves.
signpost: no superfluous complexity.
signpost: perhaps we need a larger-and-less-complex state.
verisimilitude: The film ``Starship Troopers'' comes to mind.
asciilifeform: signpost: it dun decomplexify, obv., from 'being asked nicely' either
signpost: hell, I love that film. the book even more readily argued for a kind of fascism.
asciilifeform: afaik the only at-scale decomplexification mechanism known is catastrophic collapse.
verisimilitude: I've yet to read the book.
signpost: film was a bit campy
billymg liked the campiness, it felt intentional
asciilifeform: signpost: arguably was moar of a ameri-flavoured jacking off to ancient rome
signpost: anyway, one might imagine the state being larger, yet less convoluted, with cleaner lines of hierarchy.
verisimilitude: Alright; I can agree with that.
verisimilitude: There'd be no copyright system, for one.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: copyrasty is a reich-and-its-satrapies phenomenon. like the 'greenback'.
asciilifeform: will go to /dev/null w/ the latter
signpost: asciilifeform: iirc whole civilian realm of biznis was subordinated to the military state, not unlike.
verisimilitude: Does the British monarchy centuries ago count as the reich?
signpost: problem with this is biznis organizes dick-sucking for the military too.
signpost: stock, yacht, etc
asciilifeform: rather lossy scheme. for comparison, in old time su, conscripts directly used to build houses for generals, requisitioning the req'd materials etc
asciilifeform: was tolerated moar or less openly
asciilifeform: in modern-day 'bananistans', where similarly cannot afford the pretense of separation, afaik, similarly
signpost: hell, that at least results in a skilled underclass if/when they get out.
signpost: which of my neighbors can build a house.
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087932 What's the issue with this?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-24 13:42:12 asciilifeform: rather lossy scheme. for comparison, in old time su, conscripts directly used to build houses for generals, requisitioning the req'd materials etc
signpost in fact can do woodwork, has lived a weird life.
asciilifeform: signpost: after sufficient whipping -- prolly all of'em
signpost: lol! granted
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: subj -- the supposed separation of 'biz' and 'military' world in current-day reich
asciilifeform: there's all kindsa pretend-separations of this sort
signpost: ah no, was merely reversing their order from the film example.
signpost: business rules; in the film, supposedly the other way around.
signpost: I don't think this is stable for the reasons mentioned
verisimilitude: Sure. It's no different than how we pretend the people pushing obscenity laws don't kill and eat children, asciilifeform.
signpost: e.g. ukr, for whatever stated strategic reasons, is a grinder into which to toss overstock on last-gen weaponry for a while with printola buying.
asciilifeform: point being, there's >1 way to requisition labour. printing green candy wrappers and persuading chumps they're valuable, is only 1 of'em
asciilifeform: there are others.
verisimilitude: Historically, slavery works.
asciilifeform: w/ well-known caveats -- worx
verisimilitude: It worked for the Romans.
verisimilitude: Yes, it went south in the US.
signpost: huh, that's gotta be a character deedbot doesn't like
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: 20th c slavery is moar analogous to sparta's helotry, tho
asciilifeform: signpost: been wondering for a while
verisimilitude: I know little of Sparta.
verisimilitude: Surely deedbot be getting a line as octets?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: variant where slaves 'too cheap to meter'(tm) and no longer seen as a capital good, to be maintained, but churned through auschwitz-style
verisimilitude: I'd read they needed extreme cruelty to maintain it, but that's it.
asciilifeform: e.g. roman slave had typically moar tolerable existence than today's 'worker'
signpost: fixed some logging, maybe I catch a backtrace
signpost: thing handled all lines prior to part, dunno.
verisimilitude: I'm aware of a Roman holiday in which DOMINVS ET SERVI switched places.
asciilifeform: signpost: could be an off-by-one or similar
signpost: seems like they were quite the riot
verisimilitude: It's always off-by-one, where are the off-by-two errors?
signpost will endeavor to fail more novelly, good sir.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: well there's 'off by over9000' failures-to-terminate, lol
signpost: Yes, it went south in the US.
signpost: nope, not that message
signpost: will check on next part
verisimilitude: Oh, and here I thought my delightful joke was being appreciated.
verisimilitude: Well, were.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087962 << problem is they'd rather all slowly rot than have a head cut here and there.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-24 13:50:58 asciilifeform: e.g. roman slave had typically moar tolerable existence than today's 'worker'
asciilifeform: nobody in practice gets asked what he'd 'rather'
signpost: somehow what they'd rather leaked through, appears
signpost bbl gents
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-06 18:58:50 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-06#1082669 << 'people' who behave amoebically (i.e. follow gradient of 'tastier right there right now'). and see also.
asciilifeform: signpost: laters
verisimilitude: My condition has improved, but I notice I tend to switch which arm is feeling worse, daily.
busybot: am i alive?
verisimilitude: I need a better office chair. What are your suggestions?
verisimilitude: Perhaps I should try using one of those inflated ball chairs.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-10-13 11:18:08 signpost: https://www.upliftdesk.com/motion-stool-by-uplift-desk/ << this is the unfortunately named stool I use
verisimilitude: I'll investigate it.
verisimilitude: I appreciate it.
mats: https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/24/business/blackrock-globalization/index.html briefly noted in the previous Bloomberg opinion piece, but not by name
asciilifeform: the covidiocy ran outta steam, nao reich needed new 'tighten yer belts, plebes, after all, $crisis' wankage; worx a++
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-10-31 23:13:21 asciilifeform: signpost: in '19 was already clear imho 'they need a worldwar' but also clear that can't afford actual one. so instead organized fictional one
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087996 https://babylonbee.com/news/putin-receives-nobel-prize-in-medicine-for-ending-covid-pandemic/
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-24 14:33:43 asciilifeform: the covidiocy ran outta steam, nao reich needed new 'tighten yer belts, plebes, after all, $crisis' wankage; worx a++
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: coupla wk-old meme in ru space, 'putin cured covid'
asciilifeform: ( with start of war ~100% of the covidiocy measures in ru switched off like a lamp )
verisimilitude: It's still funny, yes.
verisimilitude: Maybe the next plague will be better, asciilifeform.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-15 20:55:02 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-15#1084437 << dept. of 'gain of function' doesn't sleep, eh
mangol: why were ru an cn in on the covid hysteria to begin with?
asciilifeform: mangol: only the rulers know for certain. but likely imho combo of 5th column action and misguided belief that buying into the scheme can serve local ends
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-07 13:30:11 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-07#1082912 << reich indeed seems to be betting heavily on its 5th column. the ones already whining about paying 5x the antebellum going rate for ipnoje xiii etc
asciilifeform: mangol: reich has quite effective tentacles in both.
mangol: 5th column in ru = the miami oligarchs?
asciilifeform: mangol: these largely overseas. there's a much larger miami 'chattering class' there
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-22 13:01:27 asciilifeform: reich's bet is that he's surrounded helplessly by (1) and will be poisoned. ~month into the wank, not happened yet afaik
asciilifeform: it's the reich's algo, for ~100y nao, very seldom changes
mangol: afaict color revolution relies on massive propaganda ops in the target country pre-attack
verisimilitude: ``It's okay to be gay.''
mangol: would be interesting to know how they plan to pull that off in ru
asciilifeform: see e.g. :
mangol: i heard ru shut off Kazakhstan's internet for the last attempt, which is part of why it failed
asciilifeform: 'As soon as they declare war, they take care to have a great many schedules, that are sealed with their common seal, affixed in the most conspicuous places of their enemies’ country. This is carried secretly, and done in many places all at once. In these they promise great rewards to such as shall kill the prince, and lesser in proportion to such as shall kill any other persons who are those on whom, next to the prin
asciilifeform: ce himself, they cast the chief balance of the war. And they double the sum to him that, instead of killing the person so marked out, shall take him alive, and put him in their hands. They offer not only indemnity, but rewards, to such of the persons themselves that are so marked, if they will act against their countrymen. By this means those that are named in their schedules become not only distrustful of their fellow
asciilifeform: -citizens, but are jealous of one another, and are much distracted by fear and danger; for it has often fallen out that many of them, and even the prince himself, have been betrayed, by those in whom they have trusted most; for the rewards that the Utopians offer are so immeasurably great, that there is no sort of crime to which men cannot be drawn by them. They consider the risk that those run who undertake such servi
asciilifeform: ces, and offer a recompense proportioned to the danger—not only a vast deal of gold, but great revenues in lands, that lie among other nations that are their friends, where they may go and enjoy them very securely; and they observe the promises they make of their kind most religiously. They very much approve of this way of corrupting their enemies, though it appears to others to be base and cruel; but they look on it
asciilifeform: as a wise course, to make an end of what would be otherwise a long war, without so much as hazarding one battle to decide it. They think it likewise an act of mercy and love to mankind to prevent the great slaughter of those that must otherwise be killed in the progress of the war, both on their own side and on that of their enemies, by the death of a few that are most guilty; and that in so doing they are kind even t
asciilifeform: o their enemies, and pity them no less than their own people, as knowing that the greater part of them do not engage in the war of their own accord, but are driven into it by the passions of their prince.'
asciilifeform: worked a++ for century+
asciilifeform: they've not (yet) succeeded in the 'great rewards to such as shall kill the prince' piece, in ru; but so far did ok job in hobbling the war effort in various ways, engineering made-for-tv 'atrocities' (e.g. 'azov' rigs a hospital to blow, throws the switch when ru plane overhead while reich cameras roll) a la yugoslavia, etc
mangol: covid and biden really drove home for me in a visceral way that the public will believe absolutely anything when it comes from the right source
mangol: ofc less coddled people have known that for ages
asciilifeform: mangol: tbf nobody knows whether 'public believes'
asciilifeform: ( what'd look diff. if it didn't ? )
asciilifeform: the goebbelses will carry on regardless
mangol: most of my friends and family have been genuinely worried about covid, for example
asciilifeform: somebody sumwhere prolly still 'worried'
mangol: sure, there are still plans to offer a new round of shots
mangol: an encore lol
mangol: if your criterion for belief is unwavering belief, probably very few cases (as with religion). but alarming # of people function as if they believe
asciilifeform: mangol: most folx nod along precisely to the extent req'd to pay their bills.
mangol: ime it's worse than that
mangol: lots of people believed the covid shots were safe and took them when it was socially acceptable to refuse (or where not, safer to lie about it)
asciilifeform: some # thought that the shot might work
mangol: exactly. but taking the risk made no sense
asciilifeform: wasn't obvious that it made no sense, at one pt. asciilifeform used to get flu shots, for instance (never once experienced side effect, and flu is annoying enuff)
mangol: well, new experimental type of vaccine, developed on fast schedule with ~no testing, giant profit motive, trad. vax technology is strangely shunned
mangol: disease looks non-lethal to healthy people and all other covid related policy look like politicians have no idea what they're doing
mangol: strange condemnation of studying and talking about non vax treatments, etc.
mangol: re: other things people believe, the media spin that "US good humanitarians, Putin megalomaniac cartoon villain" is also well received in fi
signpost: unclear for both the vaccine and the virus what long term effects may be, if any.
signpost glad to not have had a severe vaccine reaction, nor anything but a mild, annoying cold from covid.
signpost: and no reason at all to have a booster given I had the virus.
signpost did opt for the moderna one given pfizer's history, but was 100% a diceroll.
mats: oh good, more vaccine denialism
signpost: bud, your head's bolted into american left media.
signpost: don't know what to tell you, if that's the resolution you're receiving on your end.
mats: irc is async you know
signpost is talking about what mangol said also.
signpost: why indeed did they not dump money into attenuated virus vaccines, if not "this is our chance to normalize this product line quickly"
mats: some of these claims wash better than others, but you know, implying the vaccines are risky is unfounded
signpost: notion of risk usually oughta include respect for the unknown.
signpost: ftr what I've read leads me to believe that whatever vaccine reactions there may be, they're probably less risky than protein spike plus whole virus.
mats: there's no longitudinal studies, because it is new, no doubt
signpost: that said, pfizer said "of course it wont transcribe into your DNA" and oops.
mats: that's not a rational response when you're trying to head off a novel virus though now is it
signpost: so, I'm not thrilled to find out what else is in the fog.
mats: being alive is experimental
signpost: leaves out the political matter of who, on whom
signpost: upstack, thought the notion that the american response might've been accidentally effective, in its haphazardness, was pretty amusing.
signpost: giving the fucker a complex surface to deal with.
signpost: thing is, this american liberal mode of "we all know we're in on the lie" gives cover to greater harm than covid ever wrought.
signpost: an example "we figure the error bars on our side-effect estimates are 1-2%, but if we tell them, a few more people will die"
signpost: sure, works for so long as the sovereign voice isn't corrupted to the point of impotence, and would argue it already is.
asciilifeform: fwiw asciilifeform so far: covid #1 (shortly after outbreak) , mildly annoying; covid #2 ('21) mildly annoying; vax (two-part) ; covid #3 ( dec. '21 ) , nasty , 3wks of ugh
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-24 16:03:41 mats: oh good, more vaccine denialism
signpost had in winter also, but texan winter, so sat in sun quite a bit
asciilifeform: ( lulzy reich buzzword, gets thrown at whatever folx aint sucking davos cock vigorously enuff at given time )
signpost: whatever happened to good old fashioned 9/11 trutherism
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-01-18 18:45:07 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-01-18#1029582 << see also. it's a standard usg discreditation algorithm -- make sure 9 outta 10 dissenters are diagnosable schizos or repeating spew of same
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-03-13 asciilifeform: aha, sorta how '9/11 truth' came to ~mandatorily~ include 'martians did it'
signpost: anyway, wrote my opinion of what submission mechanism is in use, previously covid, now ww3, here
signpost: asciilifeform: yep
mangol: "denialist" going strong since climate doom. "conspiracy theorist" recently in the spotlight. "extremist" is a timeless classic.
asciilifeform: signpost: difficult to say what effect the choreographed goebbels 'debates' have: they aint part of a scheme where the result somehow matters
signpost: the effect is exhaustion to the point of resignation from attempts at being involved.
signpost: "take your testosterone blockers harrison!"
asciilifeform: the captives are captive anyway; some % of 'aspirational class' suck davos cock eagerly, on acct of some oddball stockholm syndrome where they get to feel 'as if on soros's yacht' while doing so
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-24 03:21:41 mats: what are they going to do about it?
signpost would argue with observing denaturing in the US over the years, but not with whether "captive"
mangol: feel 'as if on soros's yacht' << lol
asciilifeform: well say a fella decides 'nyt is fulla shit, wish i could serve putin'. what's his next step.
signpost: was gonna say hoard gold and post in zerohedge comment section.
signpost: but yours is more concise
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-15 15:40:07 asciilifeform: ... or for that matter how relevant are metals, btc, etc to folx whose 'savings' -- if exist at all -- tend to be denominated in sofa cushion loose change which escaped latest trip to liquor store
asciilifeform: comments section, sure.
asciilifeform: then vodka. then anuther day 'older & deeper in debt'(tm) rinse,repeat
asciilifeform: the # of 'unbelievers' is unknown, cuz reich aint set up in such a way that the captives' beliefs actually matter in any way
signpost: not so concerned about aggregating serfs
signpost: would be nice to order and search the wot, see whether there are even a million sane human beings on rock 3.
asciilifeform: unknown among the apparatchiks, either -- apparatus is set up so that folx either nod along or go pick strawberry
asciilifeform: belief not involved.
signpost: I don't believe it's stable, though what comes next doesn't have to be better.
signpost: the accumulation of sad Linusen becomes a cultural object.
asciilifeform: signpost: is 'stable' in the sense of balloon in flight. since '70 or so, drops ballast periodically to stay aloft.
asciilifeform: worx, while there's what to drop.
asciilifeform: from '08 or so 'lolno, slave, you dun need a freestanding house, be happy in yer kommunalka'; in '28 prolly 'enjoy delish pressed cockroach and soy milk', rather obv. trend
asciilifeform: see e.g. ancient orc proverb, 'how do you make a cow eat less and give more milk?' 'feed it less, milk it more'
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-07 17:49:39 asciilifeform: oblig. su joak: 'father: vodka's gone up, son. son: father, does that mean you will drink less now? father: no, son, it means that now you will eat less!'
signpost: yep, I'm expecting approximately "Children of Men"
asciilifeform: hm saw the film ~20y ago but iirc was moar about wagner&cyanide
signpost: poor collapselands ruled by whatever remains of the war machines.
asciilifeform: that part typical 'mad max' fare
signpost: sure, it looms right there; every bad writer can see it.
signpost even reads Revelations in this light, abstract allegory of civilizational collapse.
asciilifeform: no shortage of these.
asciilifeform: the thing civs do most reliably -- is to collapse.
asciilifeform: errything else varies.
asciilifeform: the process apparently doesn't always involve external conquest -- sometimes the inmates simply rush the no longer electrified, so to speak, fence.
asciilifeform: ( from what little is known re e.g. maya civ -- seems to fit that category )
asciilifeform: sov collapse didn't involve a military conquest, either. mass walkout.
asciilifeform: hence wai current reich preoccupied with problem of 'how to make nowhere to walk out into'
signpost: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=revelation%2017&version=NIV << whore of babylon's one hell of a symbol for the united states.
asciilifeform: paging dpb !111
signpost: hey, his laziness towards this is my primary critique.
signpost: it's not that this is a prophecy. it's that there are enumerable ways a great empire dies.
signpost loves to rile up religious folks with USA being the whore.
dulapbot: (trilema) 2014-09-11 asciilifeform: 'Take a look in History, flip through her pages. The first action in revolutions of recent history -- the erection of barricades. They'll smash the cobble stones of the street, dig them out, and block off the road with them. They'll stop cars, buses, fill the street with bricks. And also they'll attack, plunder, raze, and put to the torch the city hall, administrative buildings, presidential palace, parliamen
dulapbot: (trilema) 2014-09-11 asciilifeform: t, shops, warehouses. The crowd has - a correct instinct. It would like to destroy the city - the citadel of power of the political and economic kind - the root cause of its travails. The crowd is stopped in its tracks by those who have plans for the city hall, for the presidential palace. We will not stop the crowd.' (Limonov, 'The Other Russia.') - translation mine.
crtdaydreams: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087739 << I think trying to further ``modernize'' emacs is a waste of time. The whole point of second-climacs would be to start anew but keeping in mind some of the core design principles of emacs.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-24 07:31:50 mangol: crtdaydreams: re Second Climacs, do you still have enthusiasm for Emacs modernization? if so, please talk to me (via /query if too much spam for #a). i have some ideas.
asciilifeform: crtdaydreams: the better q is how wouldja avoid baking anuther piece o'shit like current climacs.
crtdaydreams: ^^^ design principles.
asciilifeform: how's it help, when existing os dun support anyffin resembling a working cross-platform gui.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-04 14:23:38 asciilifeform: the 1 i got furthest with, was qt, with a modified 'qtextedit'. but is dog-slow, flickers, misreads clicks, mishighlights, buggy as all hell
asciilifeform: (the c gui glue of old emacs won't work for a clim-style 'errything clickable to pull out src' hypothetical Right Thing)
crtdaydreams: I would prefer not to make another emacs clone. My interest in second-climacs was as basis for further development. The split between buffers as a library (cluffer) and the core program is quite useful.
asciilifeform: crtdaydreams: there's a rather acute lack of 'with what' (see above)
asciilifeform suspects it to be an 'os-complete' problem
crtdaydreams: ^^^ I completely agree. More of a theoretical basis.
asciilifeform must bbl
crtdaydreams: Classic example of lisp curse.
crtdaydreams: strandh's coad is good from my understanding just suffering from lack of imagination.
crtdaydreams: ~reimplement~ emacs in cl won't cut it for a next-generation editor
crtdaydreams: I'd like to make it clear though, I haven't actually __contributed__ anything of any merit to the project, no coad, nuffin. Just an idea that ~could've~ been applied to second-climacs.
crtdaydreams: It's more evident now that second-climacs is dead-in-the water. Succumbed to lisparalysis.
mangol: strandh represents the opposite of the lisp curse to me. someone who respects existing specs first and communicates well. i've had a few mails back and forth with him, dude is a complete class act.
mangol: no strandh project is "dead" in the CADT sense. he's just taking on a lot of work that other people aren't doing. there are several people like that in the lisp communities, myself included
mangol: community has too few people --> you have lots of ideas --> you holler at everyone within earshot "hey, we need to do this too -- would somebody please do this? i'll help you out as much as i can" --> nobody helps you out, and random people heckle you --> the job falls on you
mangol: i know people like this from CL, ELisp, Scheme
signpost: this is what happens to me every time I break out the gpg key and sign some guy's manifesto.
signpost: the heckling never ends!
crtdaydreams: mangol: It's why I'm not going to put forth any ideas and instead just do them myself. It's all a waste of time that amounts to nothing otherwise.
verisimilitude: I'm continually forced by practicality to write more basic versions of my systems first, crtdaydreams.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1088149 << asciilifeform aint convinced there is any such meaningful thing as 'the lisp curse'.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-24 17:23:50 crtdaydreams: Classic example of lisp curse.
asciilifeform: there's idjit toy os's which malignantly fail to support civilized life, for instance.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-19 18:04:38 asciilifeform: '... because they were developing Unix and the C compiler. it's appropriate to make a machine print "hello world" to verify that everything works after all the mind-boggling nonsense has interfered with the real purpose of a computer, and you never know which part of booting up will fail due to a minor bug. the delight in a C programmer's eyes when his machine thus booted typed "hello world" back at him would probabl
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-19 18:04:39 asciilifeform: y parallel that of a Common Lisp programmer when the satellite communications subsystem he designed beams back "hello world" after an almost-aborted launch, a navigation jet which misfired, and the solar panels sustained some damage by space debris. normally, it's unnecessary to have confirmations of basic operations, but it makes perfect sense under C.'
asciilifeform: nuffin to do w/ any lisp per se tho, they similarly fail to support any other attempts at civilized life, from smalltalk to scheme, the braindamaged i/o, lack of meaningful support for gc at os/iron level, etc. equally hit'em all
asciilifeform: the confederacy of ignoramuses & deliberate malignant liars who blame e.g. 'the lisp programmers' notwithstanding.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-24 17:46:42 mangol: no strandh project is "dead" in the CADT sense. he's just taking on a lot of work that other people aren't doing. there are several people like that in the lisp communities, myself included
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-03 18:10:29 asciilifeform: thinks about mcclim, gets just shorta physically ill recalling the ui kit
asciilifeform at one pt hoped 'one day' to buy a machine fast enuff for mcclim to render in real time ; then moore's law croaked
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087999 << a++, over9000x better than 'onion'; e.g.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-24 14:43:01 verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1087996 https://babylonbee.com/news/putin-receives-nobel-prize-in-medicine-for-ending-covid-pandemic/
crtdaydreams: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1088163 << PoC||GTFO is good form to filter for quality. Though may cause issues in development when a PoC is impossible due to factors like system size, complexity and inability for meaningful co-operation etc.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-24 18:21:12 verisimilitude: I'm continually forced by practicality to write more basic versions of my systems first, crtdaydreams.
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1088054 I don't take medicine unless I be violently ill and it doesn't go away in a week or two. If I can endanger someone by not taking medicine, I want to endanger him, in fact.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-24 16:03:41 mats: oh good, more vaccine denialism
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-24#1088152 Do away with using a text editor for programming entirely.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-24 17:25:17 crtdaydreams: ~reimplement~ emacs in cl won't cut it for a next-generation editor