asciilifeform: is entirely tru that you can't e.g. thread in it (while pest protocol in fact supports threading)
asciilifeform: see, that's what the irc frontend in pest gets you, can use existing irc clients incl. erc
asciilifeform doesn't care how other folx bake pestron for own use, but not eager to personally make use of 1 built in style of 'edlin'
verisimilitude: I'll eventually and slowly finish the libraries for my Pest in Ada. Neither TCP nor SQLite are necessary, from what I see.
asciilifeform: sometimes curable w/ heroic work; for instance asciilifeform will be able to bake an ada pestron once he (or someone else) comes up w/ tcp and sqlite glue for same
asciilifeform: y'know, exactly as signpost noted pest does w/ irc.
signpost actually needs a sane one of these for note-taking for another commercial project, might bother to write a wartime one that indeed compromises and uses emacs for UI, as pest punted UI to IRC (sensibly imho)
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-04 21:38:16 asciilifeform: (tho billymg's is useful; but often enuff pest convs fall through on acct of bot hiccup)
asciilifeform: that is, for a 'public' pestnet. can picture use cases for other kinds, but no personal plans to operate such
asciilifeform: and -- the moar loggers on a pestnet, the merrier, obv.
asciilifeform: and imho loggers oughta peer with as many folx on pestnet as can be mustered, for max robustness
asciilifeform: (tho billymg's is useful; but often enuff pest convs fall through on acct of bot hiccup)
asciilifeform intends to stand up a pestlogger on dulap as soon as we have a pestron w/ 'getdata'. until then the log is gonna end up fulla holes and frustrating.
asciilifeform: billymg: yer pestlogger seems to be down
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-12-31#1070703 << asciilifeform baked the ffa diagrams by hand, similarly (plain html!) but was quite arduous and rather limited in the possibilities (can't draw e.g. examples of pest topologies this way)
bitbot: (pest) 2021-12-29 billymg: i didn't spend more time debugging because i figured i could just throw more hardware at it. i've been working on some other things, including a new blog theme that's almost ready to publish, and a "v2" of the crawler www, which is probably a bit further out
cgra: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2021-12-29#1001504 << billymg, my own noob experience re a blog theme: personally i've had the font one pain point. wanted something that has unambiguous oO0lI1 while not fixed-width, and also numbers with uniform height bases (for example, for a font that styles a '3' a bit like a 'g', 2<sup>32</sup> becomes a visual puzzle). haven't completely solved yet the font issue for myself
asciilifeform: ^ ohey working pestlog echoes? also nifty
asciilifeform: nifty. jonsykkel does it talk on pesttestnet if getdata commented out ?
verisimilitude: If and when I've a Pest station, I'll have a bot named servi serving me from it, because that word's form is the same in its nominative and vocative case.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-12-28 14:25:57 asciilifeform: considering switching pest spec from 'markdown' (which makes renumbering endnotes a 1st class bitch) to ~anyffin~ else, even e.g. the loathesome 'texinfo' if no one suggests a workable alternative
asciilifeform: done. ty jonsykkel .
shinohai: jonsykkel: iff'n ya want to peer using yer smol pest, feel free to gpgram me a key.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-12-30#1070344 << yeah, it didn't like having two processes running against same db. I shut off the #pest one for now.
asciilifeform: ( subj )
asciilifeform not had chance to test jonsykkel's pestron just yet
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-12-29 17:32:33 asciilifeform: considering a cmd for pest spec, 'SLAVE <handle>', for use w/ bots such as billymg's; sets a condition where broadcasts received via <nick> register as immediates
shinohai: I'll be back on pestnet later, having comcast issuez
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-12-29 17:32:33 asciilifeform: considering a cmd for pest spec, 'SLAVE <handle>', for use w/ bots such as billymg's; sets a condition where broadcasts received via <nick> register as immediates
bitbot: (pest) 2021-12-01 billymg: i'm also wondering what to do in the logger with the hearsay annotations in the future. should log bots just peer with everyone in the net? should it just be stripped off, or maybe shown on hover? there's also the issue that [] are valid characters in IRC nicks
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-12-29 17:32:33 asciilifeform: considering a cmd for pest spec, 'SLAVE <handle>', for use w/ bots such as billymg's; sets a condition where broadcasts received via <nick> register as immediates
billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-12-29#1070071 << had brought this up at some point too, yours seems cleaner than arbitrarily stripping in the bot/logger
asciilifeform considering a cmd for pest spec, 'SLAVE <handle>', for use w/ bots such as billymg's; sets a condition where broadcasts received via <nick> register as immediates
thimbronion: whaack: yes and my nick on pestnet is awt
whaack: thimbronion: hmm, should i see a message from you in my client in #pest? i don't see one atm
asciilifeform: whaack: pest keys persist to disk
billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-12-28#1069936 << whaack, signpost: i'm in #pest as well. pgpgram your peer info and i'll add you
asciilifeform considering switching pest spec from 'markdown' (which makes renumbering endnotes a 1st class bitch) to ~anyffin~ else, even e.g. the loathesome 'texinfo' if no one suggests a workable alternative
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-12-28 11:24:59 billymg: pest logger running again: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2021-12-28#1001400
shinohai: whaack: im in #pest
bitbot: (pest) 2021-12-28 billymg: http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2021-12-28#1069879 << yup, looks like it lost the db connection again. just restarted
asciilifeform: btw billymg's pestlogger appears to be down atm
asciilifeform: i.e. oughta be e.g. %wot, %key, etc. and pestron oughta do the Right Thing
signpost: but I get that barf in the weechat console when I join #pest , and can't issue any % commands
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-29 15:59:19 billymg: thimbronion: i'm trying to run 9987, started the same way as before and went to connect in weechat, received this after trying `/join #pest`: irc: cannot create nick "" for channel "#pest"
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-12-27 13:16:35 asciilifeform: sees pest, in 'big picture', as a generalization of the wot, rather than simply replacement for ircism.
asciilifeform: shinohai and billymg are on pesttestnet currently
asciilifeform sees pest, in 'big picture', as a generalization of the wot, rather than simply replacement for ircism.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-28 19:37:11 asciilifeform: signpost: somewhat apropos, thought of your lubytron in context of possible pheature: pestron takes a local dir and 'hosts'. peers (and optionally broader pestnet members, e.g. l2/l3) can visit e.g. http://localhost:8000/signpost and see his 'www'.
asciilifeform: when there's a 100% stable pestnet, will bridge dulapnet's #a to it, i expect.
asciilifeform: at least until there are several 100% mature pestrons
whaack: do you have an eta for when dulapnet is replaced by blatta / pest?
asciilifeform: whaack: consider to try thimbron's prototype of 'pest', then, shouldn't require much in the way of keyboarding
scoopbot: New post on btcinfo: Viewing Pest testnet logs using tmux and weechat
bitbot: (pest) 2021-12-18 asciilifeform[billymg]: oh hey a dupe:
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in pesttestnet.
asciilifeform notices that nobody in his pestnet AT is dated after the 7th -- and bot dun log
shinohai eagerly awaits to see if signpost publishes a cl pest-o-tron ...
PeterL: jonsykkel: I am trying to read your smalpest code, why you no leave spaces between arguments of functions? It may be just me, but for some reason this is making it really hard for me
deedbot: shinohai rated jonsykkel 1 << Wrote a pest implementation in C, other goodies at zzz.st
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-12-14#1069153 << also nifty, congrats jonsykkel on 2nd pest prototype!
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-12-09#1068990 << 14. see 'rekeying' in spec.
whaack: and howdy all, thimbronion, pest looks like it's coming a long way, ill try to get my node running soon
asciilifeform: msg hash includes all 428 bytes of the message, folx.
bitbot: (pest) 2021-12-06 asciilifeform[billymg]: jonsykkel, awt : hash is over ~entire~ field, not simply the portion prior to terminator
asciilifeform: meanwhile in pestronics clarifications.
shinohai: gm billymg! It does indeed work. I plan on getting back to pest soon, some irl crap robbing my time.
billymg: iirc shinohai mentioned that znc works with pest, so maybe i'll set that up
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-12-03 06:37:20 jonsykkel: could send ignore packets to random ipv4 addrs. if pestron from another net happens to receive correctly sized martian packet, it will store addr in fake wot and start "communicating" at regular intervals. if have enough of these fake peers would be difficult for snoop to even tell who actual peers are
jonsykkel: could send ignore packets to random ipv4 addrs. if pestron from another net happens to receive correctly sized martian packet, it will store addr in fake wot and start "communicating" at regular intervals. if have enough of these fake peers would be difficult for snoop to even tell who actual peers are
jonsykkel: is a pestron meant to distinguish between forks and breaks (unresolvable by getdata) in the chain?
asciilifeform: a pair of peers that is able to make contact will always have a valid AT for one another (and after 'Address Cast' is in place, it'll suffice for them to be in contact with their net, then can always establish AT for one another via a common peer)
asciilifeform: thimbronion: per '2.4. The AT': '... AT (Address Table), which holds the last known address of each WOT peer.'
bitbot: (pest) 2021-12-01 jonsykkel[billymg]: i have same then likely
asciilifeform: thimbronion: my blatta's been wedged since after this line
verisimilitude: As much as I hate the idea, I may find myself using someone else's Pest hacked to provide the interface I desire, before my version even approaches something resembling begun.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-28 19:37:11 asciilifeform: signpost: somewhat apropos, thought of your lubytron in context of possible pheature: pestron takes a local dir and 'hosts'. peers (and optionally broader pestnet members, e.g. l2/l3) can visit e.g. http://localhost:8000/signpost and see his 'www'.
billymg: thimbronion: i'm trying to run 9987, started the same way as before and went to connect in weechat, received this after trying `/join #pest`: irc: cannot create nick "" for channel "#pest"
signpost: the correct social topology is human-sized, e.g. the number of reasonable pest peerings.
thimbronion: PeterL: saw your message in #pest
PeterL: does it need the channel specified when starting blatta, I thought it defaulted to #pest?
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-29 03:05:09 crtdaydreams: asciilifeform: would it be too cursed to implement pest in python?
crtdaydreams: pest brainfuck impl wen?
crtdaydreams: asciilifeform: would it be too cursed to implement pest in python?
asciilifeform: per spec oughta trigger on all hearsays if multiple peers relayed
asciilifeform: thimbronion et al : asciilifeform while rereading pest spec found a logical bug : in 4.2.3.3, station is asked to count distinct peers who sent duplicates of a hearsay msg ; but to simply count'em is flawed, as likely ~all~ the station's peers will send'em due to bounceback.
vex: nothing to do with pest test at all, besides dulap there for testing
thimbronion: Yeah his pest won't work with this version.
asciilifeform: sent helloworld, 0 output in billymg's pestlog, i'ma assume he'll need this ver to see any
asciilifeform: signpost: somewhat apropos, thought of your lubytron in context of possible pheature: pestron takes a local dir and 'hosts'. peers (and optionally broader pestnet members, e.g. l2/l3) can visit e.g. http://localhost:8000/signpost and see his 'www'.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-27 01:28:12 atuttle: also, pest doesn't bootstrap itself from DNS. that is a huge, huge advantage that is very hard to find in protocols these days.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-27 16:33:03 signpost: pest-a-tronics oughta be liftable in principle onto any other medium
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-27 16:20:07 mats: pest is probably not suitable for malware c2 huh
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-27 16:09:10 signpost: anyone started a pest in CL btw?
signpost considers the "there is a place you are not" aspect of highly-visible pest traffic a feature, not bug, for the first use-case.
signpost: pest-a-tronics oughta be liftable in principle onto any other medium
mats: pest is probably not suitable for malware c2 huh
signpost: anyone started a pest in CL btw?
asciilifeform: atuttle: if yer interested in pest, i rec to join the wot -- then possibly can peer with someone on the experimental pestnet.
asciilifeform: hence 0 support for ipv6 or similar heresies. anyffin with ipv6ism purporting to be a pest implementation is heretical and asciilifeform will not support. (can't prevent bullshit artists from perpetrating whatever atrocities -- but will not help)
asciilifeform: further re the O(peers * packets) thing -- factually it's O(packets), exactly like anyffin whatsoever to do with packets (yer looking at each one, or whatever % cpu capacity allows) given as in practice you'll want at least as many cpu cores as you have peers, to achieve line-rate (Gb/s or whatever yours is) liquishit-rejection
asciilifeform: pest is not built to 'make rich' anyone, or 'famous', or for any such social butterfly scamcircuit garbage. built simply to ride a proper internet parasitically and unstoppably over the reich-coopted one.
asciilifeform: anyways for all i know 1e6 pest users already. and there's absolutely no reason they'd 'stand up to be counted' here or elsewhere.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-27 01:25:43 atuttle: I mean if freenode/libera.chat/whatever decided tomorrow that Pest was the future and they were just going to switch everything over to it immediately, well, I think they'd hit a brick wall with this N*M thing.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-17 19:27:29 asciilifeform: fwiw asciilifeform suspects that there were folx 'using pest' long before i described it on www, and before thimbronion wrote his pre-pest thing, or even before any of us were wanking re 'gossipd', etc.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-27 01:28:35 atuttle: so, I would kind of like the unwashed masses to adopt pest. maybe nobody here wants that. if so, that's okay.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-27 01:28:12 atuttle: also, pest doesn't bootstrap itself from DNS. that is a huge, huge advantage that is very hard to find in protocols these days.
asciilifeform: this (aside from being entirely unnecessary) would violate '1.2.8. nothing to the snoop.'
asciilifeform: verifying in not-worstcase time makes it tricky to calculate exact station capacity.
atuttle: I humbly suggest including this clarification in the specification, but "it's your baby". Thanks for creating Pest.
asciilifeform: atuttle: it's deliberate. pest is designed for decentralization ruat caelum. and for total resistance to ddos. hence verifications are to take place in worst-case time entirely by design.
atuttle: so, I would kind of like the unwashed masses to adopt pest. maybe nobody here wants that. if so, that's okay.
atuttle: also, pest doesn't bootstrap itself from DNS. that is a huge, huge advantage that is very hard to find in protocols these days.
atuttle: pest doesn't have that problem.
atuttle: I mean if freenode/libera.chat/whatever decided tomorrow that Pest was the future and they were just going to switch everything over to it immediately, well, I think they'd hit a brick wall with this N*M thing.
atuttle: I also have a few questions about Pest, but it might be a while before I get around to trying it in a serious way.
jonsykkel: jon@pc:~$ echo -n "<pest message N>" | sha256
asciilifeform: strings like 'PRIVMSG' only travel b/w irc client and its pestron.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-26 11:37:39 jonsykkel: this is how i imagine its meant to work, irc stuff only being a way to communicate with your own pestron locally
punkman: pest station shouldn't be sending "PRIVMSG" to other station, that's between operator's IRC client and station's IRC hole
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-26 11:37:39 jonsykkel: this is how i imagine its meant to work, irc stuff only being a way to communicate with your own pestron locally
jonsykkel: this is how i imagine its meant to work, irc stuff only being a way to communicate with your own pestron locally
jonsykkel: thimbronion: your pestron would prefix the stuff before it sends it to irc client
jonsykkel: speaking of interop, thimbronion i can communicate with blatta, but only if i send whole irc command like this 16:32 < jonsykkel> :jonsykkel PRIVMSG #pest :hi
asciilifeform: jonsykkel: automatic detection of bw hogs aint part of the spec, tho prolly oughta be part of a pheature-complete adult implementation of pest
asciilifeform puts note for himself to update 1.2.7.4 with mention of buf. mem in addition to cycles.
asciilifeform: jonsykkel: only if yer actually anticipating 30gb/hr of valid msgs. see also.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-24 09:24:41 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-24#1067396 << lolno. reread that section : 'Temporarily disable all communication with the peer identified by HANDLE, without discarding any data.'
asciilifeform: pest timestamp wouldn't imho benefit from sub-second units anyway
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-24 09:59:23 cgra: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-24#1067416 << my uneducated assumption was pest timestamp is an integer. i'd specify the fixed-pointness and its bit division too in the footnote
cgra: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-24#1067416 << my uneducated assumption was pest timestamp is an integer. i'd specify the fixed-pointness and its bit division too in the footnote
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-24 04:59:52 cgra: asciilifeform: in the pest timestamp footnote, i'd explicitly specify 1) the epoch and 2) the time unit.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-24#1067396 << lolno. reread that section : 'Temporarily disable all communication with the peer identified by HANDLE, without discarding any data.'
cgra: asciilifeform: in the pest timestamp footnote, i'd explicitly specify 1) the epoch and 2) the time unit.
asciilifeform: thimbronion: iirc he baked own, yet-unpublished pestron; may be bug on his end
thimbronion: Of possible interest: received some packets from gregorynyssa's pest station. Successfully decrypted but there's an issue with timestamps. My station seems to think his packets are stale.
asciilifeform: message must be ==.
gregory5: my own implementation of Pest 0xFD is almost ready. can someone add me to their peers?
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-21 16:47:03 asciilifeform: re: 0xfc -- considering notion that 'Text' perhaps oughta be renamed to 'Payload'; the orig. name may be misleading in light of binariola payloads being permitted in current ver.
billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-21#1067097 << i was thinking the same re: the intro text, "Pest is a peer-to-peer network protocol intended for IRC-style chat."
asciilifeform: 'Text' oughta refer strictly to the payloads of Messages carrying human-readable strings.
asciilifeform: would ideally go along with a revision of the verbiage ( word 'payload' is in places used to describe entire Message with respect to a packet , in particular )
asciilifeform: re: 0xfc -- considering notion that 'Text' perhaps oughta be renamed to 'Payload'; the orig. name may be misleading in light of binariola payloads being permitted in current ver.
billymg: accidentally ran the bot modified for pestnet in this chan, let's see if it's working correctly now
billymg: i've updated the pest info page at http://pest.bitdash.io to include a mirror of asciilifeform's latest 0xFC draft, as well as a mirror of thimbronion's prototype
asciilifeform: jonsykkel: one could speculate re exotica, e.g. pirateradio boats anchored off coast and transiting pest traffic for btc-paying subscribers; but 'bridge too far' atm.
jonsykkel: looking forward to shortwave pestnet
asciilifeform: or say yer 'pesting' from a moving vehicle, and 'wardriving' wireless. also noprob.
asciilifeform: whereas w/ pest station, a stranger can't even ping the box and distinguish ip from a dead one.
asciilifeform: afaik pest is the only published protocol which explicitly mandates both.
asciilifeform: jonsykkel: 'secret' objective of pest is to build a wotronic internet parasitically on top of existing comms.
asciilifeform: i.e. if you can't be arsed to keep within +/-15m of other people, you can't pest.
asciilifeform: ( see also )
asciilifeform: this must not disrupt pest station.
asciilifeform: ( see also re subj )
asciilifeform: jonsykkel: the expiration interval is 15min. i.e. nuffin you accept at time t is valid at t+15min.
asciilifeform: i.e. if you're transmitting but yer cable is unplugged, possibly pest oughta warn, rather than potentially pissing out the msg n days later when you plug back in
bonechewer: On more prosaic matters, now that Sec. 7 of the pest draft spec describes an exception to the rule of marking messages stale based only on timestamp, Sec. 3.1.1 should be updated to explicitly note the exception for GetData responses.
asciilifeform: hence trb, ffa, pest, etc. ( historically, asciilifeform would actually prefer to work on foundations of sane computing per se. but switched tacks on acct of above. esp. given that asciilifeform discovered to his satisfaction that actual sane computing is a fab-complete problem. )
asciilifeform: signpost: re 'why pest' -- asciilifeform is a btc aficionado of the (nearly extinct, possib.) old school -- would like to live in world where can get paid in uninflating, untaxable coinz, and buy necessities of live in same. doubt that anyone living nao will live to see such thing, but asciilifeform specifically interested in work which could make it at least conceivable.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-19 10:45:34 signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-18#1066703 << why do you work on p, pest, other items? I won't speak for you, but my assumption is that it's because you prefer to live in the world where they exist.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-18#1066703 << why do you work on p, pest, other items? I won't speak for you, but my assumption is that it's because you prefer to live in the world where they exist.
scoopbot: New post on Loper OS: "Pest" v. 0xFD.
asciilifeform: meanwhile, vpatch of 0xFD pest spec posted. the working draft is nao officially of 0xFC !
asciilifeform: jonsykkel: could specify that a 'getdata' with null hash requests the most recent broadcast msg.
asciilifeform also added to 'rekeying' the condition where 'key offer's must not be identical. somehow forgot this yest.
bitbot: (pest) 2021-11-19 PeterL: One question about the spec: is there some sort of escape character if you want to send a message starting with % instead of it being interpreted as a command to pest?
asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2021-11-19#1000904 << added to spec the possible use of backslash escape char for this.
asciilifeform: also includes a proposed pill for the command headache with trad. irc clients;
asciilifeform: ACHTUNG, panzers! thimbronion billymg PeterL shinohai signpost et al : pest draft 0xFD updated !! includes rekey, getdata, bounce logic, and various other items discusses in the log.
vex: \no pesticides
asciilifeform: arguably only 'comes into its own' once you can make a completely pestronic path to miners, aha
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-11 10:21:00 thimbronion: asciilifeform: what is your rationale for running trb on top of Pest? Hiding trb nodes w/o tor?
vex: thoughts on pest being bolted to trb asciilifeform?
asciilifeform: fwiw asciilifeform suspects that there were folx 'using pest' long before i described it on www, and before thimbronion wrote his pre-pest thing, or even before any of us were wanking re 'gossipd', etc.
asciilifeform: 'obfuscated pestron contest'!111
asciilifeform: i.e. the pest topology is general enuff to allow emulation of heathen one, if someone needed such a thing.
asciilifeform: orthogonally to all of this, asciilifeform was asked (in meatspace) 'can i make an equivalent of old-style moderated group w/ pest?' -- answr is 'you can, if you can find folx who want to inhabit one, simply pick a moderator and peer with him in star topology'
asciilifeform: for so long as someone on your pestnet has the old stuff, you'll be able to see it.
asciilifeform: i.e. potentially could have a pest client w/ 'scrollback' a la certain heathen chats
asciilifeform: thimbronion: imho the only proper fix for this is to actually have the embargo logic
asciilifeform: repasting from pestlog (which aint 100% working presently) : thimbronion : what is almost certainly happening is that msgs with lower bouncecounts are getting zapped by deduper, and identical copies bearing higher bouncecounts are the ones being rebroadcast some % of the time, leaving to ~random desaparecidos.
signpost: probably enough to say that when all three are provided, the pest node and irc frontend proceed to the connected state
signpost also points out that black market weed is often covered in pesticide.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-14 11:53:11 asciilifeform: meanwhile, in misc. finds : a quite compact cl ircd, possibly usable as a pestron frontend.
asciilifeform: this means these ( Timestamp, SelfChain, NetChain, Speaker, Text -- in that order )
asciilifeform: (i.e. nuffin in the red packet other than the 428byte of message is touched by it )
asciilifeform: thimbronion: observe that only the message is covered by this hash.
bitbot: (pest) 2021-11-15 asciilifeform: deduping is done with hash of entire msg per spec
thimbronion: asciilifeform: I'm having trouble locating in the spec where the hashing algorithm to be used to check for duplicates is specified.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-15 10:51:07 signpost: rereading the pest spec on a "remarkable", pretty great for this
signpost rereading the pest spec on a "remarkable", pretty great for this
thimbronion: shinohai: can you paste a logline of the command missing the channel field from both the IRC client and the pest station broadcast?
thimbronion: 2021-11-15 06:43:11.281190 [127.0.0.1:53954] -> "PRIVMSG #pest :shinohai: were you able to verify whether the bot is or isn't receiving messages at both the pest level and the IRC level?\r\n" <-- this is what the irc message from my irc client to the pest station looks like in my log.
thimbronion: shinohai: in case you couldn't see in #pest: were you able to verify whether the bot is or isn't receiving messages at both the pest level and the IRC level?
bonechewer: And an airgapped, portable OTPtron vulnerable only to TEMPEST is a worthwhile intermediate point that should exist; should at least be specced out in adequate detail to permit work on one to get underway.
bonechewer: All of the above nonwithstanding, my contention is simply that there is a worthwhile point on the continuum between pest and offline paper OTP
asciilifeform: bonechewer: it doesn't get much faster than e.g. pestgram, if you need 'reasonable' seekoority and fast msg time.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-14 23:09:00 bonechewer: It seems to me that thinking one is communicating securely on any piece of commodity hardware connected to the public internet or cell network is self-deception. If the enemy wants to read your PGPgrams or, for that matter, pest traffic, he will send a magic packet to your ethernet controller, wifi chip, or baseband modem, own your box, and read your traffic right from your frame buffer as you
bonechewer: perhaps, but TEMPEST seems like a much more difficult class of attack for the adversary than simply (1) send magic packet to box running PGP (2) ask Intel management engine to squirt framebuffer to adversary HQ
bonechewer: It seems to me that thinking one is communicating securely on any piece of commodity hardware connected to the public internet or cell network is self-deception. If the enemy wants to read your PGPgrams or, for that matter, pest traffic, he will send a magic packet to your ethernet controller, wifi chip, or baseband modem, own your box, and read your traffic right from your frame buffer as you
billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-14#1065827 << yeah, something is up with how i'm running that other blatta server. i tried connecting from here (different machine) and i could connect, and see 'billymg' in my nicklist, but messages i sent to #pest weren't showing up on the other machine
asciilifeform: (that way cannot 'oh hey let's allow dns but not pest, reject all where length==496')
asciilifeform: (moar nuanced -- a pest packet's 496 oughta sometimes be elongated with random rubbish up to the 516 possible w/out fragging, and on receipt discard all bytes above 496 and process then normally)
asciilifeform: it oughta be physically impossible to e.g. compose an ids rule against pest.
asciilifeform: (the folx for whom not meant -- will simply throw it out as a martian .)
asciilifeform: incidentally, here's an entirely unrelated idea, simply to increase the suffering of snoops :
asciilifeform: ( not to mention that pest stations oughta be able to function inside a lan or whatever other segregated net )
asciilifeform: ftr there are heathen protocols which can be abused to send a udpgram and get back own ephemeral port. e.g. dns servers can be milked this way. but i'd rather not encode a reliance on heathen toilets into pest.
asciilifeform: ( it is theoretically possible to bake a pest where nobody has to give a rat's arse about ip addrs at all! but rather 'unecological' not to mention slow)
thimbronion: asciilifeform: continuing discussion from #pest - can you illustrate a concrete scenario?
thimbronion: shinohai: default channel flag is #pest
shinohai: ^ so it seems for some reason when doing this in pestnet, the chan field no longer does anything, so msg is just going into void.
billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-13#1065580 << i didn't even have to do anything really, the irc mimicking worked well enough that i simply had to spin up another bot configured with my pest instance as the irc server
asciilifeform: i'd very much rather that folx suffering untreated case of 'tor of the central nervous system' not use pest.
asciilifeform: punkman: i'd simply rather not have pest protocol resemble the proverbial 'matryoshka doll' where a msg can contain arbitrary other msg etc
asciilifeform: imho these oughta be sent strictly when necessary -- otherwise you leak info to entire pestnet which folx dun have necessarily any biz knowing (concretely -- the # of peers you have)
asciilifeform: it'd suck imho if a pestnet with coupla hundred people were uninhabitable unless you have gb/s pipe.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-13 22:15:20 asciilifeform: ... likewise pest worx without modification over radio, wire, or other 'broadcast channel'. simply stuff erry outgoing packet into a free timeslot.
asciilifeform: punkman: even when individual peers rate-limit, you can still get a pretty thick flood if yer pestnet is populous
asciilifeform: you'll still need at least ~one~ peer's addr to get on a pest net, but from there on, any peer with whom you have a valid key will be contactable henceforth without fiddling, for so long as he is reachable via a broadcast on that net.
asciilifeform: actually just 0xFE (the intended addressee, if he's on that pestnet and reachable, will decode, and make contact with the addr:port enclosed)
asciilifeform: 0xFE and 0xFD: broadcast (a la 0x00, i.e. to all member of a pestnet whose $maxbounce permits'em to hear), bearing not text but a ciphrogram, keyed to a peer for whom the sender wishes to find ip:port.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform would like to propose a new pest msg command :
asciilifeform: signpost: indeed. and imho optimal pestron would be sumthing more or less separable from the default (irctronic) front end, i.e. gluable directly to a bot such as deedbot
signpost: cool, since deedbot is cl, might be handy for bolting to pest
asciilifeform: shinohai: could be trimmed substantially given as pest doesn't actually need anyffin like a full ircd
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in misc. finds : a quite compact cl ircd, possibly usable as a pestron frontend.
asciilifeform: ... likewise pest worx without modification over radio, wire, or other 'broadcast channel'. simply stuff erry outgoing packet into a free timeslot.
asciilifeform: phunphakt: if somehow, under some odd circumstances, two pest peers do not know one another's ips, but know expected port, they can find each other in...
bitbot: (pest) 2021-11-14 awt: asciilifeform: yeah I think the irc server includes your client host info as part of your id in the irc messages. Should be able to mitigate that server side.
asciilifeform: meanwhile pestlog thrd of possible interest to other folx.
bitbot: (pest) 2021-11-13 asciilifeform: billymg: your port is 'high'
thimbronion: asciilifeform: I see your messages in #pest
asciilifeform: also i readded peers , and issued a helloworld, but seeing nuffin in pestlog