verisimilitude: I agree, but I want to write my Pest by myself.
verisimilitude: Would a single-threaded Pest implementation work well?
asciilifeform would rather see a clean commonlisp pestron, fwiw
signpost: cool idea there might be IPC over pest between erlang instances
thimbronion: I wonder if erlang would be a good lang in which to implement a pestron.
PeterL: I'm thinking I am going to stop scoopbot here and just have it reporting in #pest
bitbot: (pest) 2022-03-12 PeterL[asciilifeform|billymg]: aha, this looks like it worked: ^:(\S+)\s+PRIVMSG\s+\#(\S+)\s+\:(.*)
billymg: ah, yeah, i see PeterL also had to figure it out again for his. had you simply read my blog post from jan you'd have had the answer
shinohai: I had almost relegated idea of bot on pest to rubbage bin, but finally paid off.
scoopbot: New article on btcinfo: Adventures in pest testnet - Blatta updates and bots
whaack: signpost: saw your msg in pestnet, problem is i have not updated my code, will do so in the near future
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-10 03:10:04 crtdaydreams: big question; how the fuck do you end up doing what you want to do and working on projects like pest and trb et cetera, like where the hell do you find the money and time?
crtdaydreams: big question; how the fuck do you end up doing what you want to do and working on projects like pest and trb et cetera, like where the hell do you find the money and time?
dulapbot: (trilema) 2016-06-05 asciilifeform: in more interesting nyooz, the tel aviv tempest folks are at it again, http://m.cacm.acm.org/magazines/2016/6/202646-physical-key-extraction-attacks-on-pcs/fulltext
whaack: i may not even add sig checking on the server, if submission is already filtered to those in my pestnet wot, then no reason to have an extra server side check, that's supposed to be done locally anyways
whaack: PeterL: anyways, seems like an unnecessary restriction, whole point is you want an authority-check to make sure someone you trust is adding the context link, doesn't need to be more strict than that, atm i am pretty satisfied with leaving the auth step to pestnet
billymg: whaack: could technically require the submitter to complete a challenge, like deedbot, when using add-context. but why add the complexity if non-pest irc is a dead end anyway
whaack: add-context could be hijacked, but if it's on the pest network....
jonsykkel: ur writing it in #pest?
shinohai: jonsykkel: Got yer latest smalpest to press/build but evidently am thick and cannot seem to peer with anyone.
thimbronion: pest: your peers know who you are, tor: you know all your peers are feds
thimbronion: hey phf - get on pestnet
shinohai currently setting up pest station in new home, should be online in a bit ....
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-03 15:53:09 verisimilitude: Once a refined Pest be available, I intend to show it to the owner, Joshua Moon; I've told him before that trying to have a website in the face of such issues is a losing game, if only due to the protocols.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-28 19:37:11 asciilifeform: signpost: somewhat apropos, thought of your lubytron in context of possible pheature: pestron takes a local dir and 'hosts'. peers (and optionally broader pestnet members, e.g. l2/l3) can visit e.g. http://localhost:8000/signpost and see his 'www'.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-03 15:55:23 bonechewer: naah, there will be evolutionary solutions to website censorship before the layers that would be needed to make pest more than just an irc replacement could be built
bonechewer: naah, there will be evolutionary solutions to website censorship before the layers that would be needed to make pest more than just an irc replacement could be built
verisimilitude: Once a refined Pest be available, I intend to show it to the owner, Joshua Moon; I've told him before that trying to have a website in the face of such issues is a losing game, if only due to the protocols.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-19 11:19:42 asciilifeform: signpost: re 'why pest' -- asciilifeform is a btc aficionado of the (nearly extinct, possib.) old school -- would like to live in world where can get paid in uninflating, untaxable coinz, and buy necessities of live in same. doubt that anyone living nao will live to see such thing, but asciilifeform specifically interested in work which could make it at least conceivable.
shinohai: thimbronion: Ack re: pest station, gonna throw it on the znc server asap
billymg: verisimilitude: that last one i can agree with. more important is what we can control. e.g. trb, pestnet, etc.
thimbronion: shinohai: your pest station appears to be offline according to my address table
vex: thimbronion, did you solve for pest dupes?
signpost: I'll let my pest node run a while and see what happens
asciilifeform: signpost: apparently asciilifeform's last 2 pest msgs simply went to devnull
signpost: not with pest packets, no need, but for things which can degrade with less harm.
verisimilitude: The reason Pest uses its size is because that's the minimum transmission unit.
bitbot: (pest) 2022-02-25 billymg: bitbot is also on 9982
thimbronion: don't wanna use ntp, but keeping pestnet clocks coordinated would be nice
bitbot: (pest) 2022-02-25 billymg: PeterL: are you on latest blatta? for some reason my station keeps crashing now, starting from http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-02-25#1003761
vex: i'd love to read verisimilitude's pest spec commentry/latin translation
asciilifeform: or even better, read spec entirely & write a commentary.
asciilifeform: or see if can come up w/ how to reduce # of various buffers req'd.
asciilifeform: nuffin stops you from baking whatever convenience scripts on top of yer pestron, also
verisimilitude: The one or two users could disconnect and reconnect. There's no such Pest operation, however.
verisimilitude: Say, asciilifeform, while Pest's Direct Text provides a whitelist operation, there's not a corresponding blacklist mode. I'll make an example.
asciilifeform: thimbronion: nat drilling.
asciilifeform: ... this is pestilentially endemic among usa folx; 'i dun wanna be a partizan, i wanna live in reich of 20/30/40y ago that was less retarded'
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-02-19 13:55:37 thimbronion: signpost: plz to repoast recommended luby readings. I am getting to the point where I have time to research this and consider it in the context of pest/blatta.
thimbronion: signpost: plz to repoast recommended luby readings. I am getting to the point where I have time to research this and consider it in the context of pest/blatta.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-02-13#1079089 << the cheapest (tho still oligarch-priced) way to do this today would likely be mask rom.
asciilifeform: adlai: current draft spec, asciilifeform recs to read if you've any spare cycles.
asciilifeform: adlai: billymg has a pestnet logger w/ reasonably good uptime.
asciilifeform: adlai: lemme know when you've a pest station, will send you a peering key
adlai: I saw that a pest specification has been published, and prototypes... congratulations
verisimilitude: I'm inclined to believe two hundred and fifty-six direct peers is sufficient for a Pest station.
crtdaydreams: Lookin' at finally getting off my arse and getting (contributing?) pest
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-19 11:19:42 asciilifeform: signpost: re 'why pest' -- asciilifeform is a btc aficionado of the (nearly extinct, possib.) old school -- would like to live in world where can get paid in uninflating, untaxable coinz, and buy necessities of live in same. doubt that anyone living nao will live to see such thing, but asciilifeform specifically interested in work which could make it at least conceivable.
asciilifeform: signpost: from asciilifeform's pov -- the only things which belong in protocol are the ones req'd for pestron to operate
signpost: that said, I think an easily mutable hypertext system shared among members of a wot (on top of a pest-implemented DHT) would be a mighty fine thing.
cgra: signpost: would it work/make sense to you to make pastes linked in pest messages (seen by your station) permanent?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-30 13:00:46 cgra: whaack: i'm possibly not aware of all implications, but i keep contemplating a 'pesttronic block explorer' accepting read-only sql queries from wot
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-31 21:14:40 asciilifeform: iirc we discussed hypothetical pestronic wot, where yer peers can ask for yer ratings. and imho this wins, but strictly because eliminates the need for 'wot lives on 1 d00d's www', rather than because it makes any kinda sense to keep ratings seekrit
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-30 13:41:01 signpost: but upstack, the logical progression of IRC botworks is being able to (deedbot:deed "signed payload to be deeded") into pest, and receive back an ack that it was heard.
asciilifeform: whaack: likewise, pest (as currently pictured in spec) lets you invite peers to make db queries when it makes sense . i.e. 'getdata' cmd.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-30 13:00:46 cgra: whaack: i'm possibly not aware of all implications, but i keep contemplating a 'pesttronic block explorer' accepting read-only sql queries from wot
asciilifeform: and imho ideally ratings would be visible to one's pestnet via broadcast
asciilifeform: iirc we discussed hypothetical pestronic wot, where yer peers can ask for yer ratings. and imho this wins, but strictly because eliminates the need for 'wot lives on 1 d00d's www', rather than because it makes any kinda sense to keep ratings seekrit
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-12-27 13:16:35 asciilifeform: sees pest, in 'big picture', as a generalization of the wot, rather than simply replacement for ircism.
vex: [http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-12-27#1069796] Is pest going to improve my wot experience? Why the fuck should I rate every aquaintance -10 to 10 for all to see?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-30 20:27:27 signpost: to hazard a sketch, I'd create a travel key, and distribute a disk image among friendlies in l1. after arrival, I'd ping those friendlies for a swarm download of the disk image with travel key, and appear on pestnet.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-28 19:37:11 asciilifeform: signpost: somewhat apropos, thought of your lubytron in context of possible pheature: pestron takes a local dir and 'hosts'. peers (and optionally broader pestnet members, e.g. l2/l3) can visit e.g. http://localhost:8000/signpost and see his 'www'.
signpost: to hazard a sketch, I'd create a travel key, and distribute a disk image among friendlies in l1. after arrival, I'd ping those friendlies for a swarm download of the disk image with travel key, and appear on pestnet.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-30 13:00:46 cgra: whaack: i'm possibly not aware of all implications, but i keep contemplating a 'pesttronic block explorer' accepting read-only sql queries from wot
signpost: but upstack, the logical progression of IRC botworks is being able to (deedbot:deed "signed payload to be deeded") into pest, and receive back an ack that it was heard.
signpost: would be quite marvelous to interact with "bots" in this manner, where you pass them a structured request, and receive a structured response back via pest.
cgra: whaack: i'm possibly not aware of all implications, but i keep contemplating a 'pesttronic block explorer' accepting read-only sql queries from wot
billymg: i backfilled the lines in #a from asciilifeform's logger. only one line was dropped in pest (which i pasted in the channel). i've added 8gb of swap to the rk for now but will have to plug the unsanitized client input hole tomorrow
asciilifeform: billymg: eggog 500 on pestlogger www ?
bitbot: Logged on 2022-01-29 07:47:56 cgra: signpost or whaack have any idea whether the jetbrains/intellij family also have a decent ada variant? (although now that i checked again, the GPS may be fine after all. forgot why i thought previously otherwise)
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-29 02:48:05 cgra: signpost or whaack have any idea whether the jetbrains/intellij family also have a decent ada variant? (although now that i checked again, the GPS may be fine after all. forgot why i thought previously otherwise)
bitbot: (pest) 2022-01-27 whaack[asciilifeform]: but i have paid for jetbrains products before and would happily do it again
bitbot: (pest) 2022-01-27 signpost[asciilifeform|billymg]: the refactoring tools are god-tier.
cgra: signpost or whaack have any idea whether the jetbrains/intellij family also have a decent ada variant? (although now that i checked again, the GPS may be fine after all. forgot why i thought previously otherwise)
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-27 13:50:48 asciilifeform: btw if the 32bytes formerly 'speaker' instead made to point to one's 'birth' (i.e. 1st 'i am' broadcast), makes rather simple to determine who was 1st claimant of $handle on given pestnet.
asciilifeform: btw if the 32bytes formerly 'speaker' instead made to point to one's 'birth' (i.e. 1st 'i am' broadcast), makes rather simple to determine who was 1st claimant of $handle on given pestnet.
asciilifeform: imposing the 'i am...' msg might have anuther win -- the receiver could ~reply~ to it with e.g. 'yes you can be bob on my pestnet' or alternatively 'i've a bob already'.
scoopbot: New article on btcinfo: Adventures in pest testnet - connecting an Android device
asciilifeform: ultimately if pestnets merge, someone will have to be encouraged to renick.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-26 18:57:58 asciilifeform: if yer able to emit a valid 'unlock' for $message, this demonstrates either a) yer the 1 who sent $message , or b) yer dr.evil, gambling on being a permanent bottleneck b/w 2 sub-pestnets, and forging a e.g. 'asciilifeform: you all eat bugs, fuckoff'
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-26 19:01:12 asciilifeform: for completeness: if yer ~unable~ to emit a valid 'unlock' for yer handle's prev.msg, yer either a) impostor, and fuckyou b) somebody whose pestnet just merged with anuther where there's a second 'you'. in which case is right & proper that yer orig. net sees you as $speaker and the new folx as $speaker-2 c) yer a poor bastard who blew away his hdd.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-24 12:07:18 asciilifeform: on top of which, asciilifeform ~likes~ that there aint long-term keys in pest. pubkey crypto oughta be manually operated, i.e. consciously triggered at appropriate occasions, rather than sumthing a rando can cause you to do when he pleases
asciilifeform: in the proposed pest, naturally you dun have pow. all you have is yer wot, and yer trusting its logs not to be a 'cave' , yes.
asciilifeform: (a) eats shit, as he's perma-distinguishable from the genuine article, except if he can cultivate a 'pet' sub-pestnet where he's the chokepoint b/w them & yours, and he's willing to impersonate $speaker erry day
asciilifeform: for completeness: if yer ~unable~ to emit a valid 'unlock' for yer handle's prev.msg, yer either a) impostor, and fuckyou b) somebody whose pestnet just merged with anuther where there's a second 'you'. in which case is right & proper that yer orig. net sees you as $speaker and the new folx as $speaker-2 c) yer a poor bastard who blew away his hdd.
asciilifeform: if yer able to emit a valid 'unlock' for $message, this demonstrates either a) yer the 1 who sent $message , or b) yer dr.evil, gambling on being a permanent bottleneck b/w 2 sub-pestnets, and forging a e.g. 'asciilifeform: you all eat bugs, fuckoff'
asciilifeform: if yer able to emit a valid 'unlock' for $message, this demonstrates either a) yer the 1 who sent $message , or b) yer [http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-26#1076745][dr.evil, gambling on being a permanent bottleneck b/w 2 sub-pestnets, and forging a e.g. 'asciilifeform: you all eat bugs, fuckoff'
asciilifeform: the 1 down side, afaik (aside from biting off a further 64bytes from payload) -- is that if you somehow lose yer last 'A', and still want l2+ stations to hear you, will have to change yer handle.
asciilifeform: if you ~don't~ have it (and getdata for it dun succeed within interval 'Tw', you display e.g. '?asciilifeform: i eat bugs!' instead of 'asciilifeform: i eat bugs!'
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-24 14:56:35 asciilifeform: Q is H(message, incl. A; and a 32-byte turd, S, not included in the msg.)
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-24 14:56:28 asciilifeform: so, for the sake of argument: suppose that (at the expense of payload) a message gets 2 new h256 fields : call'em Q and A ;
asciilifeform: w/ a 0xfa blatta, ~2~ pnojes in principle will peer if both already sitting on given pestnet
shinohai turns on camera while pet #1 is in shower, connect to NaughtyPest for only 0.0025 BTC!
shinohai: I think so too. I like the idea of using it as an "offensive" device, take it places, see what the pest station picks up ....
asciilifeform: shinohai: will be interesting to try w/ that pnoje once nat drilling actually implemented
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-26#1076685 << pest per se, or simply irctron plugged into same ?
jonsykkel: waiting for pest on iot fridge
shinohai: Death drones with pest stations inside, wen ?
jonsykkel: cool stuf, soon can have pestron on shitdroid fone!
shinohai: for lulz i built smalpest for armv7 jonsykkel .... runs a++
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-23 23:56:22 asciilifeform: applies (unless asciilifeform miscalculates) recursively, to enforce '1st user owns the handle' across the pestnet.
jonsykkel: so idea is that entire net doesnt necessarily agree on who owns x handle, just that an individual pestron is able to auto resolve l2+ forks?
mats: i'm following along with the pest stuff, might write a small client
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-19 11:19:42 asciilifeform: signpost: re 'why pest' -- asciilifeform is a btc aficionado of the (nearly extinct, possib.) old school -- would like to live in world where can get paid in uninflating, untaxable coinz, and buy necessities of live in same. doubt that anyone living nao will live to see such thing, but asciilifeform specifically interested in work which could make it at least conceivable.
whaack: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-24#1075987 << word. vex, you've been following along enough to know that *someone* is going to have to peer for you to be able for you to talk in pestnet, right? atm i'm not going to risk losing my peers who may care about their snr
PeterL: solution: don't let dr. evil be your only peer into the pestnet?
asciilifeform: the latter aint guaranteed tho, esp. if >1 msg sent in reasonably quick succession. dr.evil takes A_current and forges M_prev, and sends it out (with a doctored timestamp, for good measure), this may reach some stations on the pestnet before the genuine m_prev.
asciilifeform: Q is H(message, incl. A; and a 32-byte turd, S, not included in the msg.)
asciilifeform: so, for the sake of argument: suppose that (at the expense of payload) a message gets 2 new h256 fields : call'em Q and A ;
asciilifeform: Q is H(message, incl. A; and a 32-byte turd, S, not included in the msg.)
asciilifeform: so, for the sake of argument: suppose that (at the expense of payload) a message gets 2 new h256 fields : call'em Q and R ;
asciilifeform: ^ in which thread, asciilifeform came up w/ interning hearsays and counting the relaying peers, to allow ~some~ distinguishing mark.
asciilifeform: and (as PeterL pointed out upstack ) not all collisions feature an obvious 'genuine' and 'impostor' station from the pov of all stations on the pestnet
asciilifeform: and there's no place to bolt on a 'manual' challenge, cuz again, no way to 'attach' pest msgs to a longterm key w/out forcing its use in sealing ~erry~ msg.
asciilifeform: on top of which, asciilifeform ~likes~ that there aint long-term keys in pest. pubkey crypto oughta be manually operated, i.e. consciously triggered at appropriate occasions, rather than sumthing a rando can cause you to do when he pleases
asciilifeform: thimbronion: recall the orig. reason why pest is using symmetric crypto, btw
asciilifeform: but this doesn't help a pest station distinguish fork ends for marking.
asciilifeform: thimbronion: no pubkeys in pest.
asciilifeform: ... suppose, for instance, that the msg having ~lower min bounce~ is considered (in absence of immediate msgs from $speaker) to represent the troo branch of a fork.
asciilifeform: what asciilifeform wants is to emulate the 1 desirable aspect of a traditional centralized 'fleanode' : that the 1st user of a handle on a given pestnet can be distinguished from subsequently appearing users.
asciilifeform: given addr cast, there oughta be no such thing as a 'broken peering' while peer's station is standing
asciilifeform: orthogonally, asciilifeform still considering variant of this, but corrected -- the idea is, one ought not to process an in-wot hearsay if the speaker corresponds to a 'warm' peer. (you'll either defo get the immed. copy, eventually, or oughta prod him then getdata for it until you do)
asciilifeform: (tho often enuff you'll have entire msg history of the pestnet from genesis. but not guaranteed.)
asciilifeform: jonsykkel: 1 possible issue (in light of the current buffer logic) is if blue(a) and blue(b) fire within 'Te' interval.
jonsykkel: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-23#1075817 << say u have following net: http://zzz.st/up/vFniopMQ/20220124_081722.png where square=pestron, color=handle, line=peering. noone has ever sent any msg, then blue(a) broadcasts a msg. yellow guy records msg and relays to red and green. red records msg. green rejects msg cuz in-wot hearsay (draft 4.3.1 step8). now blue(b) broadcasts
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-23#1075817 << in the absence of an immediate message or prod from that speaker (if he is in-wot) , that is.
asciilifeform: applies (unless asciilifeform miscalculates) recursively, to enforce '1st user owns the handle' across the pestnet.
asciilifeform moves 'SLAVE' to 2.5.3. optional commands, and added 'PCUT'.
asciilifeform: clarified some of the text concerning chains, but that sect. still needs major massage.
asciilifeform: signatures nao consistently referred to as seals.
asciilifeform: (the only structural change so far is that paddings are to be noise rather than zero.)
asciilifeform meanwhile made various (mostly minor) corrections to 0xfa draft.
billymg: i snagged pestnet.io, the old bitdash url now redirects to it. i plan to treat it like therealbitcoin.org, in that i'm not thinking of it as my site but instead that i'm maintaining it on behalf of people working on pest. as such, if anyone has feedback/suggestions please let me know
vex: is ur bot on pestnet too?
whaack: thimbronion: so the msg "Hi, welcome to pest" correctly sets the sender as my localhost, but the other Notice messages does not
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-21 20:47:44 asciilifeform: given addr cast, all peers oughta be able to connect directly at all times. (hence wai asciilifeform removed 'in-wot hearsay' section; tho fughot to specify that station simply should not route a hearsay purporting to come from an in-wot handle...)
asciilifeform: given addr cast, all peers oughta be able to connect directly at all times. (hence wai asciilifeform removed 'in-wot hearsay' section; tho fughot to specify that station simply should not route a hearsay purporting to come from an in-wot handle...)
asciilifeform: if a hero arises who comes up with an algo for forcing handles on a multi-level pestnet to actually stay unique -- let's all take off hats & use it
asciilifeform: thimbronion: btw in your reread note the new mechanism for explicitly showing your current chain tips to a peer.
thimbronion: we have billymg's pest logger anyway
asciilifeform: ^ nor, naturally, any packet from a stranger, incl. a replay of genuine packet )
asciilifeform: pestron oughta be able to store arbitrary mass of logs, but in such a way that only getdata (which only can come from a peer) can cause you to look on disk
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-20 12:01:00 asciilifeform: under the current algo, a flood of captured packets turned into a dupe flood which includes e.g. a prod will end up querying the longbuffer errytime and exceed the avail. cycles to maintain linerate rejection.
thimbronion: asciilifeform: oh hm didn't fully comprehend that. So pestrons should not store all logs, but only n log entries, and in memory only?
asciilifeform: in an adult pestron, the only things in the station db oughta be wot/keys/at/knobs. (and defo not messages, for the obv. reason )
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-12 19:26:33 bitbot: (pest) 2022-01-13 asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-01-12#1002644 << we're gonna need some means of identifying keys for purposes like this w/out leaking bits. possibly e.g. crc32(sha512(key)). will amend spec after folx comment.
asciilifeform: under the current algo, a flood of captured packets turned into a dupe flood which includes e.g. a prod will end up querying the longbuffer errytime and exceed the avail. cycles to maintain linerate rejection.
asciilifeform: also this ('SelfChain hashes are computed strictly for Broadcast Text and Direct Text Messages. For all other Message types, the values of these fields are undefined.') may be a catastrophic mistake.
asciilifeform in fact thinking that for line-rate operation, the receiver prologue in fact oughta look at chain hashes ~before~ searching longbuffer, and deprioritize anyffin that aint pointing to the immediately prior msg
asciilifeform: ( also recall that ~anyone~ who is able to get hold of a valid packet can send it to you x9000 as a dupe flood )
asciilifeform: ( if folx recall, the entire point of timestamp is that you dun have to walk a century of log to dedupe incomings )
asciilifeform: longbuffer still oughta cap at 1h / N MB of msgs (whichever greater) tho, to cap cost of dedup
asciilifeform: the simplest way to make this happen is that folx specify x MB for how much pestnet log they're willing to store, and then chances are that 1 of yer peers will fill you up when asked.
billymg: ok, i indeed messed up my config, but in a pest related knob. i got tripped up when casting a False in the config to a boolean (is True because non-empty string)
asciilifeform: i.e. yer station oughta know ~that~ 2+ pestnet inhabitants are colliding handles.
asciilifeform: ( btw, the reason why not, is 'prod' )
asciilifeform: the desired condition is that all speakers on a given pestnet must use distinct handles.
asciilifeform: this was prolly the 1 original idea in pest, come to think of it
asciilifeform: (on a given pestnet)
jonsykkel: pestron is supposed to keep track of breaks/fork for nonpeers?
asciilifeform: jonsykkel: gotta store chains for all speakers seen on pestnet, or chains aint very useful
asciilifeform: a pestnet e.g. 5 deep (as current rec'd cut) would get expensive even if no one is deliberately pissing in it, if had to search 'all time' log whenever hanging chain
asciilifeform: the chains thing defo needs massage, e.g. 3.2.2.1 not touched since coupla rev. ago
asciilifeform: btw the 'netchain not used' in 3.2.3.1 is obv. a lie, it's to be used for ordering
asciilifeform: gotta draw the line somewhere. if a hanging selfchain can make yer noad search GBs of log, it's a ddos vector (avail. to yer pestnet)
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-19 11:47:57 shinohai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-19#1074360 <<< toppest of keks, especially in light of entire sports arena renaming itself as "crypto.com center" .....
shinohai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-01-19#1074360 <<< toppest of keks, especially in light of entire sports arena renaming itself as "crypto.com center" .....
asciilifeform: ( the 'adult' variant of 'lemme out' is actually digging in yer nat config and setting up port fwding etc. which is what asciilifeform did to make own desk pestron go. but it's a rather annoying chore, and wouldn't work if yer on e.g. gsm modem or other lamertron where often built-in nat 'for yer own good')
asciilifeform: (which donotwant )
asciilifeform: i.e. if you can reach a pestnet where even 1 station a) not in a nat b) already 'escaped' -- yours can escape
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 18:46:49 asciilifeform: the 0xfb algo even oughta cut through NATs transparently for that matter.
asciilifeform: even w/ a halfbaked proto pestron, the ~current~ pestnet is moar reliable already than any net-facing system on planet3.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-28 19:37:11 asciilifeform: signpost: somewhat apropos, thought of your lubytron in context of possible pheature: pestron takes a local dir and 'hosts'. peers (and optionally broader pestnet members, e.g. l2/l3) can visit e.g. http://localhost:8000/signpost and see his 'www'.
asciilifeform: the 0xfb algo even oughta cut through NATs transparently for that matter.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-11 18:34:08 asciilifeform: and in particular, the next time the dc folx trip over the main breaker like in dec. of '20, pestnet is what'll be standing and dulapnet awol
asciilifeform considers otp quite simple to bolt onto e.g. pest.
asciilifeform: thimbronion: think of it this way -- not even deepest shithole simply randomly picks folx off the street 'to try as traitors'. normally there is a selection criterion, imposed (not by 'public', but by management, to make the work actually count towards propping up the regime; which plucking randoms off street dun do)
asciilifeform: this is the scenario referred to e.g. here.
asciilifeform: PeterL: ( whereas any pest peer of thimbronion's can trivially generate a log 'proving' that ' thimbronion : let's go shoot kennedy tonight ' -- proving 0 )
thimbronion: asciilifeform: I think we can leave pest out of it. I realize this is a little autistic - but how can you prove you *don't* have any given private key?
asciilifeform: thimbronion: well, suppose pest were built on rsa.
thimbronion: asciilifeform: I know there is no pubkey crypto in pest. My question has to do with the concept of opposability.
asciilifeform: ( there are no public/private keys in pestism )
verisimilitude: We're not voting on this; asciilifeform clearly is the most important person regarding Pest, but I don't find it wise to enforce such a queer requirement.
asciilifeform: ( pest ftr aint gonna win that olympics, if d4 reads spec will probably understand why )
d4: Supposing I accept IRC-like nick names and distribute software faster then you can, I may split the pestnetwork having the inclusive one being able to write both the IRC-like nick and the strict pest nick. Just saying tho
asciilifeform was picturing, 'suppose pestnets schismed over min. nick len. which side of the wall would asciilifeform want to sit on'
d4: Aside from that, it's up the IRC server deciding wheter a nick is valid. So the Pest server can reject IRC client connecting with a nick that doesn't conform. ie. [this] or `fun`
asciilifeform: have you read any of the pest thrds, d4 ?
asciilifeform has various ones, and sometimes even proofreads e.g. pestism on'em, and all that's req'd is to simply load the url in browser
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-18 12:34:15 thimbronion: signpost: you ever figure out a way to get a readable version of the pest spec onto a remarkable?
thimbronion: asciilifeform: incidentally I was able to get a decently formatted pdf version of the pest spec with working links onto my remarkable. Now to actually read.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-28 19:37:11 asciilifeform: signpost: somewhat apropos, thought of your lubytron in context of possible pheature: pestron takes a local dir and 'hosts'. peers (and optionally broader pestnet members, e.g. l2/l3) can visit e.g. http://localhost:8000/signpost and see his 'www'.
thimbronion: signpost: you ever figure out a way to get a readable version of the pest spec onto a remarkable?
whaack: billymg: yes that pestmirror looks great! bitdash is coming along
asciilifeform enjoying billymg's prettyprinted 0xfb. if only asciilifeform knew how to make own www actually display like these
billymg: mirror of the pest spec now updated to 0xFB
jonsykkel: another idea could be to have peer specific knob for "display name" or smth that pestron uses when displaying msgs to operator console (could simply be bool like - always display messages from this peer using first handle in H)
asciilifeform: it's why went through effort to glue pest to irc moar or less cleanly.
asciilifeform doesn't expect to see a usable pure-pest client any time soon
PeterL: pest 0xfb section 3.2.4. Do all handles and peer names also have this limitation?
scoopbot: New post on Loper OS: "Pest" v. 0xFB.
asciilifeform finished w/ draft of 'nat penetration' section of spec, and all associated mechanisms.
asciilifeform updated 'address cast' mechanism to actually make sense.
asciilifeform moar updates & clarifications in spec.
asciilifeform moved sections around in spec; afaik all that remains is to move the buffers sect., write up mechanics of output buffer (and 'getdata' with it, the issuance of getdata's is rightfully part of that sect.)
signpost: swarm downloads, recent disussions of DHT-atop-pest, all figure into this of course.
asciilifeform: thimbronion, jonsykkel , et al : the datatypes thing, moar or less compleet.
asciilifeform: jonsykkel: re invalid cmd, we already have 'packet is rejected' neh
jonsykkel: otherwise guarnanteed to end up with buncha pestrons all doing slightly diff stuff
gregory5: then for parallelism you can change the definition of APestString to: a string encoded in pure ASCII, at all times occupying precisely N bytes, the unused trailing bytes being set to zero.
gregory5: might be better to say: A UPestString[N] is a string encoded in UTF-8, at all times occupying precisely N bytes, the unused trailing bytes being set to zero.
asciilifeform: ACHTUNG thimbronion , jonsykkel , et al : reworked section 4 with massively simplified algorithm. q's/comments invited.
deedbot: signpost updated rating of asciilifeform from 1 to 5 << honorable member of former republic, writes at loper-os.org, ideological inspiration to many of us, inventor of pest protocol and author of P
thimbronion: jonsykkel's pestron
whaack: thimbronion: grats, but what is smalpest
thimbronion: successfully compiled smalpest
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-19 11:19:42 asciilifeform: signpost: re 'why pest' -- asciilifeform is a btc aficionado of the (nearly extinct, possib.) old school -- would like to live in world where can get paid in uninflating, untaxable coinz, and buy necessities of live in same. doubt that anyone living nao will live to see such thing, but asciilifeform specifically interested in work which could make it at least conceivable.
asciilifeform: grr idjit mistake in 4.2.3.3. Receiving a Broadcast Message: Common Epilogue -- final sentence oughta read 'or every member NOT in Rb' !
asciilifeform in particular specified mechanism whereby messages will generally not find their way to stations which already have'em, substantially lightening load on deduplicator
asciilifeform found already coupla typos, will fix'em in the 0xFB working draft in coming days.
asciilifeform: sect. 'fundamental mechanisms' revised as prev. discussed here.
asciilifeform: also incl. e.g. notes re ICMPism.
scoopbot: New post on Loper OS: "Pest" v. 0xFC.
mats: i think gemini activetrader is next cheapest, at 0.35% for trade vol under 500k usd
scoopbot: New post on Blog of Peter Lambert: Pest Network Example MetaPost Figures
whaack: asciilifeform: ugh sorry we are bouncing back and forth between chat logs, but i need to respond to the thread in pestnet here since here is where trbexplorer resides