Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2022-02-07 | 2022-02-09 →
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-02-07 21:51:04 asciilifeform: lulzily strip of iron came off 1 of the doors. will weld it back on at some prt
asciilifeform: !w poll
watchglass: Polling 14 nodes...
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.086s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=722345 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: : Alive: (0.023s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=722345 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.082s) V=70001 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=722345
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.112s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=722345
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.145s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr= Blocks=722345
watchglass: : Alive: (0.167s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr= Blocks=722345 (Operator: whaack)
watchglass: : Alive: (0.217s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=722345
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.259s) V=88888 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=722345
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.313s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=721988
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.328s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=722345
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.536s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=722345
watchglass: : Alive: (0.705s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=722345
watchglass: : Busy? (No answer in 100 sec.)
watchglass: : Busy? (No answer in 100 sec.)
thimbronion: Most bitfinex users are likely better off having their bitcoin "stolen" and "recovered"
shinohai: <<< bot's vm lease expired, imma try and rehome it by this weekend.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-02-07 12:31:22 asciilifeform: shinohai: coulja plz hit reset on that thing when you've a chance? was neat to have the ticker.
asciilifeform: thimbronion: seems likely it'll be 'returned' (if at all) as fiatolade
asciilifeform: 'After the execution of court-authorized search warrants of online accounts controlled by Lichtenstein and Morgan, special agents obtained access to files within an online account controlled by Lichtenstein. Those files contained the private keys required to access the digital wallet that directly received the funds stolen...' << lol
asciilifeform: 'genius' heist... pinch 1e5 btc, park in gox
asciilifeform ftr sees far moar likely scenario -- shitfinex stole customer coinz, proceeds to lizards/waterfall, rando orc appointed scapegoat
asciilifeform: i.e. usg's indictments have approx. same relationship to fact as freisler's.
asciilifeform: 'this fella torched the reichstag. see, we found a box of matches in his pocket.'
asciilifeform: water for waterfall gotta come from sumwhere. this is traditionally where.
thimbronion: fwics doesn't say anything wrt how the funds will be dispersed
thimbronion: I wonder if someone at DOJ does TA and is consulted as to the best time to release fud for maximum effect.
PeterL: "Agent Elon is about to send a tweet saying he is dumping all his bitcoin, wait until after that to drop the fund bomb"
asciilifeform: if these folx have half a brain between'em all, then naturally
thimbronion: the alleged twatter account of same:
asciilifeform: loox to be snoar
thimbronion: purported self poasted tiktok account of same:
pete_rizzo_: Hi All – I think you may have heard I have some questions about the TRB Bitcoin implementation. I've uploaded them in the text file above, and was hoping some folks might be able to help me test this out
PeterL: pete_rizzo_: citation needed for how it is less secure?
pete_rizzo_: I'm not sure there's a specific citation. This has just been cited by various core developers to me as their assumption of TRB Bitcoin compares to their current implementation
PeterL: maybe you can be more specific about what sort of attack you are thinking of?
PeterL: I think it would be on them to provide evidence that the changes they are making provide some sort of security benefit?
pete_rizzo_: Right. I'm not saying they are right. In fact, I hope that my interest in the TRB implementation shows that I am open-minded and just trying to bridge a knowledge gap. I think if it is proven that TRB is very secure (from a theoretical standpoint) to me that seems like the much more interesting outcome
thimbronion: pete_rizzo_: one aspect of security is code complexity
pete_rizzo_: PeterL This is where being a non-developer works against me. The assertion seems to be, should some attacker be aware of a user who had a lot of bitcoin, and who was running TRB, it would be possible to steal that Bitcoin in a trivial way, though this claim hasn't been substantiated to me
thimbronion: pete_rizzo_: I haven't actually compared the codebases, but I suspect core (as they call it) is more complex, having more features.
thimbronion: pete_rizzo_: thus the likeleyhood of a catastrophic bug is higher for core, if that is ineed the case.
pete_rizzo_: Well, the argument seems to be something like... core (even its newer soft fork features) are protected by the majority hashpower... and TRB somehow isn't
shinohai: <<< I'd argue that "core" is the "dissenting implementation of Bitcoin" and not vice-versa.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-02-08 15:07:33 pete_rizzo_: Uploaded file:
pete_rizzo_: I don't think that's a bad argument shinohai though i'm not sure it gets to the heart of what i'm asking, which is what is the relationship between these two things. Ie -- what is the benefit of you both being on the same network? How does that even work? And why is that desirable for each party?
shinohai is mobile, but would need to further research ....
pete_rizzo_: What seems to be getting ignored is that both parties seem to be technically doing very different things within the same consensus...
pete_rizzo_: so, how is that possible? why is the desirable? and why does that not occur elsewhere in the coin world? and if there is something meaningfully unique about bitcoin's consensus going on, what actually is it?
pete_rizzo_: Some of this feels fairly intuitive. It just feels non-specific.
pete_rizzo_: Ie -- Bitcoin and Bitcoin cash
pete_rizzo_: 1. discordant implementations of Bitcoin
pete_rizzo_: 2. benefit for users (they get their desired rules)
pete_rizzo_: 3. cons: there are separate chains and separate asset prices
pete_rizzo_: 4. security (con) (dependent on separate groups of miners for each chain)
pete_rizzo_: Ie -- TRB and Bitcoin Core
pete_rizzo_: 1. discordant implementations of bitcoin
pete_rizzo_: 2. each group gets their desired rules
pete_rizzo_: 3. pros: not separate chains or separate coins (obviously good?)
pete_rizzo_: 4. security (?) (shared hashpower securing transactions?)
pete_rizzo_: anyway. sorry if this is disruptive. happy to chat about this in dm if anyone is interested
pete_rizzo_: I obviously also understand the social and theoretical reasons there is the split (re: shinohai's comment) but that seems separate from defining actual resulting situation is
asciilifeform: wb to #a, pete_rizzo_
asciilifeform sees hex barf in place of (presumed) hieroglyph
shinohai: Must suck to see hex in place of emojis of pregnant men.
pete_rizzo_: it was a top hat. felt appropriate
shinohai: oh hey I can see it in glowing bear
PeterL: I just got a rectangle
asciilifeform: pete_rizzo_: trb is largely same as the 'official' client from 2012, i.e. just prior to the 'official' devs becoming full-bore nsa stooges; with a # of bug fixes and simplifications (removal of various idiocies and backdoors e.g. 'alert').
asciilifeform: pete_rizzo_: they sit on same network (the stooges tried & failed to destroy bitcoin via forkwar in '17) to this day
asciilifeform: pete_rizzo_: naturally if you ask the nsa stooges anyffin re bitcoin, and in particular, trb, they will give you all kindsa scripted goebbelsesque nonsense
pete_rizzo_: right. that part i understand. But the main core implementation has changed. specifically in two forks that with different rules now upheld by "majority hashpower" (segwit + taproot). So, assuming that some other implementation is "protected by the majority hashpower" what is exactly is that protection you don't have. What added costs (wallet,
pete_rizzo_: consensus, etc) are imposed on TRB as a "minority implementation"
asciilifeform: pete_rizzo_: there isn't a two-sided forkwar featuring segwit yet.
pete_rizzo_: if any, and i concede, there might be none. i just don't know how to prove that out
asciilifeform: pete_rizzo_: the bch war was rather informative 'preview' tho, of what happens in a forkwar.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-26 21:01:47 asciilifeform: what you'd get is a moar or less exact replay of the bch warz. and yes conceivable that it'd somehow come out to 'megablox win' if all the folx who dumped bch have since contracted brainworm and luvvv megablox and pine for 1000GB hearnblox and fullbore paypalization
pete_rizzo_: an ideal test i'd like to run is one that proves TRB has the same level of security and functionality as Core
asciilifeform: pete_rizzo_: anyone with half hr spare time can bake a fork of bitcoin. and if yer a well-connected scammer, can even get the forkcoin 'listed on exchanges' and 'have an exchange rate'. however when you bake a fork, you hand out free forkcoin 1:1 to erry holder of actual bitcoin. which then (when can be bothered) go and sell yer 'free gift'.
asciilifeform: pete_rizzo_: what evidence would you accept for such a proof ?
asciilifeform: pete_rizzo_: moar apropos piece re subj of forkwarz
pete_rizzo_: that was the one where i discovered bitcoin-assets
pete_rizzo_: I'm not quite sure. If I was commissioning it as an academic study, I guess what I would like to see is... There's some taxonomy: Here's how security and functionality are defined at the consensus (node level), at the wallet level, and mining level. Here's how TRB compares to Core. I think this would prove there's a meaningful ability for you to be
pete_rizzo_: a dissenting minority within bitcoin
asciilifeform: pete_rizzo_: your orig. paste q seems to suppose there is presently a forkwar. there isn't.
pete_rizzo_: what do you mean by that? i don't think TRB is a separate network, or that it is trying to be
asciilifeform: ( well technically bch still exists. but as a joke long past expir date )
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-26 20:56:00 busybot: Current BCH price in BTC: $0.007835
pete_rizzo_: but that does mean a majority of people are still enforcing rules (Core) that some minority (TRB) is not
pete_rizzo_: so the question then, would be, how to the other parts of the network -- node, mining, wallet -- interact with each, and is it even meaningfully different
asciilifeform: pete_rizzo_: are you familiar with the mechanics of 'segwit' ?
asciilifeform: ( if not, see e.g. whaack's piece re subj )
pete_rizzo_: to the extent that a non-technical person could be i suppose
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-10-11 13:36:39 punkman: pete_rizzo_: from trb perspective, segwit transactions are "anyone can spend" and have no signatures
pete_rizzo_: right, i understand on a high level how the soft forking rules work and why the core developers like using soft forks. their argument is that this (doesn't fork anyone off the chain) and gives everyone time to upgrade. BUT they still don't seem to acknowledge that what you're doing (ignoring this) is possible or desirable
asciilifeform: pete_rizzo_: do you have a grasp of why bch ended up as a joak coin ?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-26 20:56:00 busybot: Current BCH price in BTC: $0.007835
asciilifeform: i.e. why didn't btc holders run to sell traditional-btc and load up on bch when they were issued their free bch as result of the fork ?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-02-08 15:52:14 asciilifeform: pete_rizzo_: anyone with half hr spare time can bake a fork of bitcoin. and if yer a well-connected scammer, can even get the forkcoin 'listed on exchanges' and 'have an exchange rate'. however when you bake a fork, you hand out free forkcoin 1:1 to erry holder of actual bitcoin. which then (when can be bothered) go and sell yer 'free gift'.
asciilifeform: pete_rizzo_: suppose the 'soft' fork were made 'hard' today. how and why will result differ from bch ? (was effectively same thing as a 'hardened' segwit)
pete_rizzo_: because a version of bitcoin in which it was possible for the majority to enforce some unwanted rules on a majority was bad, and risked funamentally compromising what made the bitcoin asset unique
pete_rizzo_: one a minority*
asciilifeform: pete_rizzo_: 'majorities' and 'minorities' have 0 to do with it
asciilifeform: holders of coin have pistol to the head of miners.
pete_rizzo_: yes, i agree. full nodes define consensus, not miners
asciilifeform: again nope
asciilifeform: the folx who have the coin (and any fork coin that ends up 'gifted' to'em as an inescapable side effect of forking) can decide which one to keep and which to liquidate (while some idiots can still be found who will buy the jokecoin)
adlai: in the specific scenario in question, doesn't the market between the two sides of the fork end up revealing the financial majority ?
asciilifeform: this in turn determines the exch rate, and consequently whether miners can pay their mains current bill etc
asciilifeform: wb to #a, adlai
adlai: ty
asciilifeform: long time nosee, adlai . didja get conscripted again or wat
adlai: no; didn't I mention that they released me from the reserves? (although, I have actually considered volunteering... they pay reservists)
asciilifeform: adlai: congrats
adlai simply spent a while with hardly any keyboard usage, other than the piano
asciilifeform: healthy
adlai: during this time I spent a nontrivial amount of hours reading about the challenges using a touchscreen for the main machine would entail
asciilifeform: 'gorilla arm disease'
asciilifeform: not to mention unpleasant
asciilifeform must brb
adlai: I still think the interface is workable, and simply haven't taken any concrete steps because it'd require a massive amount of work
adlai: pete_rizzo_: in my experience discussing soft forks (and segwit in particular), everyone acknowledges these issues, most of them simply don't make a big deal out of advertising them
adlai: I saw that a pest specification has been published, and prototypes... congratulations
adlai is reminded of the Yossarian quote, perhaps the best Yossarian quote of all:
adlai: huh, I haven't read this book in a looong time!
adlai: once I used to be able to locate quotes without an index or website
adlai: "there were many officers' clubs that Yossarian had not helped build, but he was proudest of the one on Pianosa. It was a sturdy and complex monument to his powers of determination. Yossarian never went there to help until it was finished; then he went there often..."
asciilifeform: adlai: lemme know when you've a pest station, will send you a peering key
asciilifeform: adlai: billymg has a pestnet logger w/ reasonably good uptime.
asciilifeform: adlai: current draft spec, asciilifeform recs to read if you've any spare cycles.
asciilifeform: it aint particularly long, ought to take an hr at most for a reasonably literate fella
adlai is glancing at this, after having skimmed conversations on the topic in the past
adlai: I'm due for sleep soon, although I do intend to study what the conversations have led to
asciilifeform: goodnight adlai
asciilifeform will bbl: meat chores
adlai: ttyl
adlai: << fwiw, I have never been good at keeping up with email... I check it about as often as I check IRC, unless there is some specific urgent thing that has to come by email
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-12-06 21:28:44 verisimilitude: I referred to the email conversations, adlai.
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