Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

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asciilifeform: $ticker btc usd
busybot: Current BTC price in USD: $38717.43
asciilifeform: $3 when!111
asciilifeform: !w poll
watchglass: Polling 14 nodes...
watchglass: : Alive: (0.023s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=719768 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.082s) V=70001 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=719768
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.112s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=719768
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.098s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=719768 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.081s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr= Blocks=719768
watchglass: : Alive: (0.149s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr= Blocks=719768
watchglass: : Alive: (0.082s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr= Blocks=719768 (Operator: whaack)
watchglass: : Alive: (0.204s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=719768
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.201s) V=88888 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=719768
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.323s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=718917
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.328s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=719768
watchglass: : ( Alive: (0.333s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=719768
asciilifeform: << seems they forgot to unban from last time before 'banning' again ?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-20 22:31:51 bonechewer: speaking of "illegal bitcoin", ru seems to now want to stamp it out in favor of a digital ruble
watchglass: : Busy? (No answer in 100 sec.)
asciilifeform: ( 'pop where no one has pushed' ? )
watchglass: : Alive: (0.508s) V=99999 (/ Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=719768
asciilifeform distinctly recalls there already being no Official goxes in ru, for yrs at this pt
asciilifeform doesn't view 'bans of goxes' as anti-btc politic; rather opposite.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-12-29 22:21:01 asciilifeform: counts the usg-tolerated goxes , which buy & sell largely imaginary coins, dispense leverage, etc. under institutions
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-19 13:03:00 asciilifeform: the reason why various 2010s 'they'll ban goxes!' prognoses (incl. asciilifeform's) came to nuffin, is that turns out goxes are a very effective instrument of exchrate control, and therefore quite valuable to the reich.
asciilifeform: sadly not likely in the reich.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-11 10:43:18 asciilifeform: doesn't expect it'll happen tho. short of a gift from the gods in the form of, say, a hamhanded usg ban which kills all goxes or similar
bonechewer: Scott Locklin has some good snark relevant to asciilifeform's interests: "there is no reason to make computers the way they are presently made other than habit and lack of imagination"
bonechewer should have known
asciilifeform: bonechewer: asciilifeform back'n'forthed w/ fella for many yrs in his www comments
whaack: !e view-height
trbexplorer: block_height: 719787
asciilifeform: hm whaack , is there an oddball utfism b/w ':' and '7' there ?
whaack: asciilifeform: yes there is i have it on my long list of notes to get rid of
whaack: it's a tab character
whaack: the explorer now has automatic reorgs, so it will stay up to date with trb tip, it currently queries every 45 seconds to see if there's a new block
asciilifeform: may be worth to show 'time since last block'
whaack: asciilifeform: okay i can add that to the view_height command
whaack: orphaned blocks happen about once a day, correct?
whaack: i'm wondering how long it will be before i get to see my reorg code in action
asciilifeform defo seen days w/ >1 reorg
asciilifeform: seen weeks w/out reorg to
whaack: i guess it is all dependent on the status of the network between miners
asciilifeform: whaack: oughta be able to test a block eater w/ reorgism by feeding it blox from e.g. 'blkcut', from a trb db
whaack: in addition to of course the random probability of near simultaneous block discovery
asciilifeform: iirc they're in chrono. order
signpost: this market rip is so sexy to watch.
signpost: mats: what do you say; are you buying the dip?
thimbronion: Acquaintance of mine has lost 40k so far on a dog coin
signpost: chortle
asciilifeform: thimbronion: lost-lost or 'ohnoez,exch fell'-lost?
thimbronion: asciilifeform: exchange rate. obv has no clue how to self custody.
asciilifeform thinks 'current - costbasis' when things 'lost'
thimbronion: asciilifeform: that would be a negative number in her case
asciilifeform: presumably didn't wander into shitcoin-casino by happenstance, but knew what signed up for.
asciilifeform: casino aint built for you to win, lol, rather opposite.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-19 13:56:02 asciilifeform: the 1 aspect common to all casinos is 'house wins'
thimbronion: asciilifeform: if she didn't know she does now
asciilifeform: if only erryone learned from 1st trip to casino.
asciilifeform: many folx -- do not
asciilifeform: (instead go to 'make system for beating the house' etc)
whaack: so last night i was thinking about the schema of my sql db that essentially mirrors the trb db in an organized, indexed fashion that i like and i was pondering about a better name for a table i have that is currently named 'output_input', which stores UTXOs when they are created and then marks the place where they are spent when they are consumed. And the better name I came up with was 'ticket'
whaack: (also considered 'voucher') and I thought that perhaps the concept and term 'ticket' is a better way to create an intuition for newbs on how bitcoin works under the hood
whaack: this is because tickets can have some nominal value, and they are issued, spent once, and then destroyed
asciilifeform: imho notbad term
asciilifeform: 'ticket' is 'punched', could say
whaack: mhm ^
whaack: there are various reasons why output, input, and utxos are confusing terms - first off is utxo has no tangible image that someone can put in their head (like ticket) and 'unspent' is a misleading term because when you spend something you have changed its location / owner, but that's not what happens in bitcoin, when you spend a utxo it is destroyed
whaack: or even better as you say, punched, since it still exists (in history) but it is marked as used and not to be used again
asciilifeform: well not destroyed, gets to live on disk 4evah if yer running a troo noad
asciilifeform: (not to mention that you'll need it again if the blox on top of it reorged away)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-12 12:15:51 asciilifeform: trb already has a max reorg length, we simply dun know what it is, lol
whaack: asciilifeform: is that because it will OOM or something ?
whaack: or politically collapse if it is too long?
whaack: likely both lol
asciilifeform: whaack: more immediately, cuz we haven't any notion what the longest possible reorg is
asciilifeform: (but more unpleasantly, also dun know what longest reorg trb will actually perform w/out choking)
asciilifeform: iirc longest historical one was... 8?
asciilifeform: ^ may be worth documenting if doing a walk
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-21 12:23:13 asciilifeform: whaack: oughta be able to test a block eater w/ reorgism by feeding it blox from e.g. 'blkcut', from a trb db
whaack: wasn't there one that was like 87 blocks when someone found out how to give themselves like 2 ** 80 btc or something
asciilifeform: possibly, in the shitoshi days
whaack: yes it was back then iirc
asciilifeform: again imho worth to document
whaack: my reorg is on top of trb reorg, it assumes that trb is able to do the reorg
asciilifeform to date not encountered a trb in the field which perma-choked on a reorg
signpost: << I'm probably approaching a wash on bitcoin if we end up ~20k, but who cares.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-21 12:37:11 thimbronion: asciilifeform: exchange rate. obv has no clue how to self custody.
signpost: this is why one keeps cash on the side to eat when cheap again.
asciilifeform: imho is a matter b/w you & odin, 'when to hold / when to fold' etc
signpost ain't trying to maximize USD; if bitcoin fails I'll go maximize USD in one of the soviet design bureaus
signpost: sure
asciilifeform: 'i'ma sell at 20k so i can buymoar at 100' is perfectly valid personal algo.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-11 15:07:56 asciilifeform: tangentially, imho absolute best thing that could happen to btc from 'actual commerce' pov -- is that it were to fall to e.g. 100$ and stay there for next decade.
thimbronion: I personally prefer the price to stay high so I can work on meaningful things, as opposed to almost anything you can get fiat for doing.
whaack: yeah, i'm in strong disagreement with asciilifeform on this point lol
asciilifeform: right, yer choice of constants will depend on where you stand re hodl
signpost: I would rather every weak hand be bankrupted first.
signpost: then moon etc
signpost: so it stays.
whaack: right, little shakes like this are fantastic
asciilifeform: they're fascinating to watch, simply of 0 practical effect from asciilifeform's pov thus far
signpost: interesting that there was lots of institutional chatter before this. bet they're eating.
whaack: do these institutions ever touch btc or do they just have the coinbase web interface tell them they have some?
signpost: but it's coinbase *prime* whaack; they're fancy.
asciilifeform suspects is reason wai 'institutional' 'mega-buys' dun have much naked eye effect on gox exchrate
asciilifeform: it dun cost gox anyffin to 'print' fractional-reserve promisecoinz
whaack: well as much as i'd like to believe that coinbase is on thin ice with fractional reserve coins, if the % in segwit address meter is any indictator, they have a lot of fucking reserves.
whaack: although, of course, maybe coinbase doesn't even keep their own coldwallets with segwit addresses.
asciilifeform: whaack: nobody outside their bunker knows what the mass of obligations is tho
whaack: troo, and erry1 nowadays 'owns bitcoin'
asciilifeform: ( and that's just 1 gox, there are others where nobody even pretends to publish a 'here's our stash' addr )
whaack: does coinbase publish such an address?
asciilifeform regards all goxes as 'guilty until proven innocent' of being, well, goxes, i.e. fractional-reserve scams
asciilifeform: whaack: asciilifeform assumed from your observation above that it did ? ( nfi , not looked )
whaack: no, i'm just saying that 25% or so of coins are in segwit addresses, which is a (perhaps poor) guesstimator of how many coins are controlled by enemy
asciilifeform: this then doesn't tell us anyffin re solvency of coinbase
signpost: never hurts to treat them like they are, and exfiltrate bought coin immediately.
asciilifeform: signpost: aa but if 'immediately' then can't specu-trade over9000x/day, eh
signpost: *insolvent
asciilifeform: or 'leverage'
signpost: nope, added benefit
asciilifeform: thimbronion: let's say coinbase has 8.5k coins and they walk away and insurance pays. at current exchrate insurance will 'pay for' all of'em. but where would coinbase find 8.5k coins to buy at that rate then.
asciilifeform: moar likely the goxers will be stuck w/ fixed usd per. if that
whaack: ofc if/when coinbase explodes the gox'd will get USD at best
signpost figures their control over keys is actually pretty good.
thimbronion: asciilifeform: wouldn't the insurer first verify the presence of the coins before insuring? This is wrt the premise that they are fractional reserve.
asciilifeform admits that he finds unclear how even possible to meaningfully insure coinz, given 'moral hazard' where they can be 'walked' and it made to look like anyffin at all.
thimbronion: don't get me wrong I hate coinbase with a passion
thimbronion: otoh unlike the orig gox it is a public company with various obligations
signpost: asciilifeform: this is the kind of bureaucracy usg.corps love and excel at.
asciilifeform: imho primary hazard to goxcoins aint 'walking' but simple bank run.
signpost: hack, sure. doubt they are running fractional though.
asciilifeform: what'd be their incentive not to, tho ?
whaack: coinbase is a much more professional gox, no doubt
signpost: asciilifeform: goes back to that thread about prosecutors and "cost-of-acquistion" vs roi
asciilifeform: and not many things w/ moar roi than to 'print' coinz neh
asciilifeform: esp. given the impossibility of proving that you aint doing so
asciilifeform: goxes are in that sense 'lemon market'
asciilifeform: how woudlja go about proving that your gox aint fractional?
signpost: local american tech already has infinite money
thimbronion: asciilifeform: someone proved it to the insurance company's satisfaction
signpost: *loyal
signpost: they don't need more money.
signpost operating on laggy link atm
signpost: anyway, can't be proved. and most likely time to lie is after a hack.
asciilifeform doesn't deny the abstract physical possibility of a solvent gox. but finds difficult to imagine.
signpost: "all goxes are insolvent in the limit" is a reasonable view.
asciilifeform: 'solvent until you need to withdraw'
signpost: just risk management there. never wire more than you can lose, and always transfer out to 1-address
asciilifeform: indeed , if one uses goxes the way asciilifeform used on 1 occasion mtgox, unlikely to lose yer coin
asciilifeform in fact recently used a gox to recycle some shitcoins, in exactly this 'in - out' style
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-12-02 14:33:51 asciilifeform: recently recycled some phorklulzcoinz
asciilifeform: re: hypothetical mega-sales of coinz -- i'd offer to my l1 1st ( if only we still had the auctionbot... )
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-21 13:23:33 signpost: << I'm probably approaching a wash on bitcoin if we end up ~20k, but who cares.
asciilifeform: before goin' to a gox, that is
signpost only buying, had some cash arrive after btc was already in vertical moon-mode.
asciilifeform: right, this in re hypothetical btcocalypses (or simply folx needin' a parcel of fiatola in a hurry)
thimbronion sells on a roughly monthly bases, but all sales will be reported to the IRS, etc.
thimbronion: *basis
PeterL: << what's the incantation in sqlite to manually delete a key?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-09 15:05:39 billymg: you don't have to nuke the whole db, just go into sqlite and delete the key for the user you just unpeered
thimbronion: PeterL delete from keys where key='FbJF...'
whaack: man i must say i think this sharing of keys even while testing is terrible, it's like building dangerous muscle memory
thimbronion: whaack: that's a fake key
whaack: ah
mats: signpost: yes
mats: ABB always b buyin
thimbronion: $ticker btc usd
busybot: Current BTC price in USD: $37848.52
thimbronion: wen 19k?
signpost: thimbronion: I was just digging for that one myself
mats: where is the actual content?
signpost: this sounds like fud
signpost: "shares fell nearly 18%" << all of tech is falling
signpost: that said, one of my favorite conspiracy theories is that saylor's a fed tasked with blowing up bitcoin will the collapse of his gigantic leveraged hodl.
signpost: *with
thimbronion: when it rains fud it pours fud
mats: nice, mstr discount day
mats: gbtc is also at 26.7% discount to nav
thimbronion: signpost: interesting never heard that one. of all the public figure wallstreet bitcon face fags he seems to actually get it the most though.
signpost: that's why he's the perfect fed!
signpost wiggles eyebrows
whaack is sus of saylor
whaack: seems elon musk-like
thimbronion: whaack: his strategy seems sound to me. as a public corp he can take on massive amounts of low interest debt and buy btc with it.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-21 15:10:38 whaack: man i must say i think this sharing of keys even while testing is terrible, it's like building dangerous muscle memory
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-12 19:26:33 bitbot: (pest) 2022-01-13 asciilifeform: << we're gonna need some means of identifying keys for purposes like this w/out leaking bits. possibly e.g. crc32(sha512(key)). will amend spec after folx comment.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-21 15:54:09 signpost: that said, one of my favorite conspiracy theories is that saylor's a fed tasked with blowing up bitcoin will the collapse of his gigantic leveraged hodl.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-12-28 23:31:44 asciilifeform: vex: imho the sooner *all* the slimy chrematist scum maggoting on top of bitcoin go to gasenwagen, off cliffs, to feed the fishes, etc. the better.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-11 10:42:12 asciilifeform: << whole space is imho sorely in need of a great flood to wash away all the scum.
thimbronion: Would anyone here object if at some future point the blatta db sat inside postgreql instead of sqlite?
thimbronion: Learning today the extent of sqlite3's limits such as no way to drop or add columns without creating new tables and renaming them.
asciilifeform: thimbronion: asciilifeform very much likes to be able to shuffle blatta.db around on filesystem for testing
asciilifeform: having a pgism would muchly get in the way of this
asciilifeform: (not to mention make the operation of multiple blattas on 1 box rather gnarly)
thimbronion: asciilifeform: from my perspective it would be a pain for folks without sysadmin experience to run postgresql also
asciilifeform: it's an ugh, asciilifeform in e.g. phuctor did not even consider moving from sqlite to postgres until had multi-GB dataset
asciilifeform: cuz it's a whole other world of pain
asciilifeform: in an adult pestron, the only things in the station db oughta be wot/keys/at/knobs. (and defo not messages, for the obv. reason )
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-20 13:59:15 asciilifeform: if an arbitrary packet can force you to access disk, yer sunk
asciilifeform: i.e. a coupla kB at most.
asciilifeform: ( ~possibly~ some msg logs, but strictly for 'getdata' on best-effort basis )
thimbronion: asciilifeform: oh hm didn't fully comprehend that. So pestrons should not store all logs, but only n log entries, and in memory only?
asciilifeform: thimbronion: e.g. longbuffer gotta live in memory (and be quite compact )
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-20 13:58:44 asciilifeform: indeed oughta be queryable in o(n log n) or around
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-20 12:01:00 asciilifeform: under the current algo, a flood of captured packets turned into a dupe flood which includes e.g. a prod will end up querying the longbuffer errytime and exceed the avail. cycles to maintain linerate rejection.
asciilifeform: pestron oughta be able to store arbitrary mass of logs, but in such a way that only getdata (which only can come from a peer) can cause you to look on disk
asciilifeform: ^ major subject on asciilifeform's to-do for 0xfa
thimbronion: asciilifeform: ok haven't gotten to longbuffer yet in my re-read.
asciilifeform: ( to rephrase above -- no hearsay packet should ever result in disk access )
thimbronion: asciilifeform: in that case it doesn't make a ton of sense for me to go to much effort to preserve existing logs in the migration process for the next release, yes?
thimbronion: we have billymg's pest logger anyway
asciilifeform: thimbronion: given as blatta doesn't look at chain hashes yet, i'd suspect not
asciilifeform: (once it does, will need to keep'em somewhere)
thimbronion: asciilifeform: unreleased version does
asciilifeform: well if unreleased, not makes a diff there, does it
asciilifeform: logging end is where imho a pg glue would be useful
asciilifeform: (for folx who want to stand up existing logotron, for instance)
asciilifeform: but (as described upstack) gotta be 'write only'
thimbronion: asciilifeform: it might? If next release keeps the logs it should prevent spurious "forked!" warnings.
asciilifeform: as i understand erryone will see these when 1st runs the new one
thimbronion: or spurious "met <speaker>" warnings
asciilifeform: ( well not 'forked', but 'met' yea)
asciilifeform: i suspect eryone's gonna rekey anyways, and will be reasonably certain who he's talking to
thimbronion: alright I'll just blow away the logs then
asciilifeform: ( also recall that forkage msgs only appear from hearsays )
asciilifeform: per spec
asciilifeform tries to remember whether specified this detail
asciilifeform: possibly not, lol
thimbronion: asciilifeform: this is new to my understanding - could have missed it in whatever version I read
asciilifeform: thimbronion: a msg from a direct peer is prima facie authentic
asciilifeform: i.e. if he tells you his selfchain is nao zero, then it is troo
asciilifeform: ( who has key -- is your peer , definitionally )
thimbronion: yeah I get it now. didn't realize before that forking was only for hearsy. thought perhaps it was for letting you know you missed a message from a peer.
asciilifeform: is also for closing chain gaps, yes
asciilifeform: the chain hashes, that is
thimbronion: but with getdata, this should not happen
asciilifeform: well the hash is how you know when you gotta getdata
thimbronion: although theoretically it *could*
asciilifeform: ( the concrete purpose of fork alarm is this )
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-19 22:49:54 asciilifeform: they're a pill against ~indistinguishability~ of colliding speakers.
thimbronion: i.e. if somehow the log was missing from all peers, getdata could fail
asciilifeform: indeed would
thimbronion: asciilifeform: ah so that's what that's for
asciilifeform: it's also for nat drilling via addr cast, but yea
asciilifeform realizes the spec will need a good deal of massage still
asciilifeform: ideally when 'fully baked', the purpose of ea. part will be quite obvious
asciilifeform: i.e. no reader will think to say 'so that's what that's for', lol
thimbronion: asciilifeform: reread the section a few times and couldn't figure it out
asciilifeform believes
thimbronion: figured it would be made clearer after reading the rest
asciilifeform: plz lemme know whether in fact is, when finish rereading
asciilifeform must bbl
shinohai: <<< what version of sqlite you using? iirc newer sqlite lets ya `ALTER TABLE <name> DROP COLUMN`.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-21 17:30:12 thimbronion: Would anyone here object if at some future point the blatta db sat inside postgreql instead of sqlite?
shinohai: ( 3.35.5 here if curious)
thimbronion: I have 3.34 hrm
asciilifeform rather unsatisfied w/ the 'fork alarm' mechanism (for various reasons, e.g. the alarm won't go off until the 'original' actually speaks, 'skipping' the impostor's msgs) but to this day unable to think of anyffin substantially better
asciilifeform: if a hero arises who comes up with an algo for forcing handles on a multi-level pestnet to actually stay unique -- let's all take off hats & use it
asciilifeform: given addr cast, all peers oughta be able to connect directly at all times. (hence wai asciilifeform removed 'in-wot hearsay' section; tho fughot to specify that station simply should not route a hearsay purporting to come from an in-wot handle...)
asciilifeform: so forks aint a concern when yer actually peered. still annoying tho that afaik there is no 'final solution' to l2+ collision.
asciilifeform then realizes that that last part is a 'square circle'. prolly oughta goto bed, lol
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-21 20:47:44 asciilifeform: given addr cast, all peers oughta be able to connect directly at all times. (hence wai asciilifeform removed 'in-wot hearsay' section; tho fughot to specify that station simply should not route a hearsay purporting to come from an in-wot handle...)
jonsykkel: if i run this the first (read) returns as expected but the one inside (with) never returns
jonsykkel: (notice im not using pipe for anything, always reading from stdin)
jonsykkel: typing into stdin from terminal and pressing enter
jonsykkel: or i gues it gets stuck at with-open-file "call"
whaack: jonsykkel: i tried in my sbcl interpretter and it seems to work
jonsykkel: whaack: weird
jonsykkel: "pipe" is a mkfifo in same folder. i gues its something to do with that
whaack: dunno what a mkfifo is, i had to create a blank pipe file in the running dir to get the program to work
jonsykkel: ye indeed works as expected if its a file instead of pipe
verisimilitude: Try using CLEAR-INPUT.
jonsykkel: no diff
verisimilitude: Don't play with pipes.
jonsykkel: i need pipes
verisimilitude: How inconvenient, then.
jonsykkel: indeed
verisimilitude: Try using ECL or CLISP.
verisimilitude: I'm no longer available.
jonsykkel: same thing clisp
jonsykkel: if echo stuff into pipe it unstucks
jonsykkel: ok i gues u need O_NONBLOCK to open() syscall
jonsykkel: u lern something new every day
jonsykkel: now how to do that from lisp
gregory5: asciilifeform: to my understanding, motherboard-vendors such as Asus are given power/permission to circumvent Fritz, is that right?
whaack: blockexplorer graveyard: "Warning: SessionHandler::write(): write failed: No space left on device (28)"e
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