← | Results 501 ... 654 found in all logged channels for 'systemd'
(trilema) assbot: GSoC 2014: Systemd replacement utilities (systembsd) ... ( http://bit.ly/1tnMxxj )
(trilema) mircea_popescu: basically, gut it, use the remaining shell as a systemd-standardized interface for sane components.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: one question left hanging in my head : once all the effort trying to push systemd is spent, why not just make a clone that's been shot in the head. specifically, that runs as an instance even if the root doesn't have it, and that masquerades as systemd to satisfy fake dependencies.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: so basically systemd should be renamed kudzu
(trilema) decimation: * a few cycles of personal systemd experience
(trilema) decimation: it might be the case that this kind of understanding can only be had through a few cycles of systemds
(trilema) mircea_popescu: it's not just that systemd is a piece of shit.
(trilema) decimation: at any rate, asciilifeform makes a good point, the main ding against systemd is that its main author has written several well-known turds, thus the fruit of the tree
(trilema) decimation: but systemd is worse, in the sense that it adds a layer of obfuscation
(trilema) decimation: speaking of which mircea_popescu: so you called it with the debian GR re: systemd, they 'voted' to make init scripts 'optional'
(trilema) asciilifeform: if folks understood 'do not meet the enemy halfway' we would never have even heard of systemd.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: decimation one of the most interesting aspects of systemd is the irrationality of the proponents. it's almost as if you're discussing theology with the flat earth society or geophysics with the global warming cult of washington dc.
(trilema) decimation: I might try 'funtoo' if he is serious about no systemd
(trilema) decimation: http://www.funtoo.org/Funtoo_Linux_FAQ << "Part of the distinctiveness of Funtoo Linux is its dependency-based OpenRC init system, so changing this would make it something other than Funtoo Linux. So we do not support systemd as part of Funtoo Linux. "
(trilema) mircea_popescu: if this turns into another "you're mean and a cult because systemd" thing i swear...
(trilema) BingoBoingo: Oh, systemd documented ruining people's days in the wild http://seclists.org/oss-sec/2014/q4/592
(trilema) assbot: oss-sec: CVE-request: systemd-resolved DNS cache poisoning
(trilema) bounce: the gn00 guys also socialist. poettering not so much, though. why u no liek systemd?
(trilema) mircea_popescu: lol so pankkake got butthurt because we don't like systemd, decided bitcoin "wouldn't have worked anyway" ? that's some pretty good fatlogic right there.
(trilema) bounce: fighting with hald/dbus/udevd/*kit/systemd/whatever?
(trilema) decimation: https://github.com/EtchedPixels/FUZIX << Alan Cox: "Fed up of SystemD ? Kdbus the final straw ? Linux community too large and noisy ? Yearn for the good old days when you knew every contributor by name and the source code fitted on a single floppy disc ?"
(trilema) mircea_popescu: maybe pankkake tried to generate a bitcoin address, itcame out as 1systemdsux and his head explody
(trilema) asciilifeform: he likes systemd i think
(trilema) assbot: Say Something Nice About systemd - Slashdot
(trilema) mircea_popescu: BUT at least back when they were making django they weren't making systemd
(trilema) mircea_popescu: why even bother with a proper init, use systemd
(trilema) mircea_popescu: dude wtf is it systemv or systemd
(trilema) TomServo: Did he ever give an explanation? Was it really SystemD bashing?
(trilema) jurov: i'm sure they will include some ddos functionality into systemd bery soon
(trilema) asciilifeform: systemd cancer is pretty advanced though
(trilema) jurov: asciilifeform today's log says debian's supposedly voting to allow compatibility outside systemd
(trilema) jurov: it's revenge for us bashing the systemd
(trilema) jurov: so i came to the systemd stuff in the lawgs .. and
(trilema) assbot: New systemd dependencies - Portage Help - Funtoo Linux
(trilema) decimation: lol https://lkml.org/lkml/2014/4/2/415 << the systemd people tried to get Linus to accept a patch where the 'debug' kernel command argument would be silently removed from userspace, because it would trigger systemd spamming errors so badly that it wouldn't boot the system
(trilema) BingoBoingo was actually excited about Scientific Linux 7 until he saw them bring in systemDevil from upstream
(trilema) assbot: Ts’o and Linus And The Impotent Rage Against systemd « IgnorantGuru's Blog
(trilema) decimation: apparently debian is going to 'discuss' the possibility of getting rid of systemd again https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2014/10/msg00001.html
(trilema) mircea_popescu: o noes, systemd gets fucked ? awww.
(trilema) BingoBoingo: ^Debian reconsidering systemd
(trilema) BingoBoingo: RH is on the naughty list for pushing SystemDeviant out
(trilema) asciilifeform: (anyone who uses gentoo, see recent logs for systemd exorcism notes)
(trilema) assbot: Systemd Adding Its Own Console To Linux Systems - Slashdot
(trilema) decimation: asciilifeform: I was going to make this point yesterday: you drive a stake in the heart of systemd because you prefer... bash?
(trilema) asciilifeform: incidentally, that crap gets magicked away when you zap 'udev' (actually, the name - under modern gentoo - now refers to a satanic udev-systemd - and replace with 'eudev'.
(trilema) asciilifeform: and - if you don't mask the turd, 'sanitary' gentoo (sans systemd) will indeed pull in udev-systemd by default.
(trilema) assbot: Gentoo Without systemd - Gentoo Wiki
(trilema) decimation: asciilifeform: thanks for that gentoo -systemd tip. it would be handy to make a systemd-free linux box
(trilema) assbot: Gentoo Without systemd - Gentoo Wiki
(trilema) decimation: what I find interesting is that systemd has become standard in redhat enterprise 7
(trilema) decimation: pulseaudio, systemd, avahi, all turds
(trilema) asciilifeform: of all the sniveling shilling shits who took part in hearbleed insertion, propagation of 'systemd', the like.
(trilema) decimation: although according to the boycottsystemd webpage, it sounds like systemd 'wants' to take over much of unix userland
(trilema) BingoBoingo: decimation: systemd temps the desktop systems with login handling
(trilema) decimation: asciilifeform: so I tried to install gentoo in a vm last night, was disappointed that it wanted me to install systemd. apparently one should install 'minimal' and then bootstrap software stack
(trilema) BingoBoingo: decimation: Solution might be to be lazier to avoid the systemd update???
(trilema) assbot: boycott systemd
(trilema) decimation: asciilifeform: did you see this site: http://boycottsystemd.org/
(trilema) BingoBoingo: <decimation> although they jumped on the systemd bandwagon << Alpine Linux still defaults to clean
(trilema) asciilifeform: jumped on the systemd bandwagon << and you're using this on your own free will ?
(trilema) decimation: although they jumped on the systemd bandwagon
(trilema) punkman: re: systemd, there's a fork now http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/
(trilema) assbot: boycott systemd
(trilema) mircea_popescu: decimation: lol > http://boycottsystemd.org/ << it'd have been pretty meta if the systemd ppl themselkves had reg'd that domain and made a parody antisite
(trilema) assbot: boycott systemd
(trilema) BingoBoingo: One of the most disappointing name collisions has to been the suckage systemd vs. the awesome System D
(trilema) BingoBoingo: And by devil I mean systemd
(trilema) BingoBoingo: <chalbersma> Yep the company I work for still developes the latest stuff for HP-UX. Luckily we're moving off it for RHEL later this year. << Stahp or I'll have to cover you in my systemd fatwah
(trilema) BingoBoingo: The sad thing about systemd is that even though red hat made it, ubuntu will fork it just because, and it will die. No serious intervention ought be necessary for this Hearnia
(trilema) BingoBoingo: Who knows? Maybe now that the FBI has seen it it stops liking systemd?
(trilema) BingoBoingo: <BingoBoingo> zdzichu: No until you stop insisting all the world make systemd a dependency. Stop making my niggers pick your cotton!!!
(trilema) BingoBoingo: <zdzichu> BingoBoingo: so go and ignore systemd
(trilema) BingoBoingo: <BingoBoingo> Systemd is the devil
(trilema) BingoBoingo: Trolling #systemd is like slaughtering lemmings
(trilema) BingoBoingo: So... systemd chan might not have someone capable of banning me
(trilema) BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Join systemd again.
(trilema) BingoBoingo: systemd has 24 months to learn the silence that the spring lambs can't
(trilema) mircea_popescu: Myth: systemd's use of D-Bus instead of sockets makes it intransparent. This claim is already contradictory in itself: D-Bus uses sockets as transport, too. Hence whenever D-Bus is used to send something around, a socket is used for that too. D-Bus is mostly a standardized serialization of messages to send over these sockets. If anything this makes it more transparent, since this serialization is well documented, under
(trilema) BingoBoingo: If you pretend systemd lives on an arch that can count aleph sub one possibilities Imma take my dick out and correct in in the traditional chinese sense
(trilema) mircea_popescu: For example, systems running systemd now generally store their hostname in /etc/hostname, something that used to be specific to Debian and now is used across distributions. << holy hell that took half a century.
(trilema) BingoBoingo: <sztanpet> cool, now that its un-prefixed from systemd people are meant to use it anyway so might as well make it useful :D
(trilema) mircea_popescu: o look, there's #systemd
(trilema) mircea_popescu: this is kind-of bizarre. so, ok, syslogd gets whatever systemd feels like passing along. why is this useful and to whom
(trilema) BingoBoingo: systemd gets a kilogram of brass. The niggers behind it can decide if the brass is shaped into hammers or bullets.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: Myth: systemd makes it impossible to run syslog. >> Not true, we carefully made sure when we introduced the journal that all data is also passed on to any syslog daemon running. In fact, if something changed, then only that syslog gets more complete data now than it got before, since we now cover early boot stuff as well as STDOUT/STDERR of any system service.
(trilema) BingoBoingo: Systemd is over
(trilema) BingoBoingo: Systemd distros can go back to the jungle and fuck chimps.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: 19. Myth: systemd forces you to do something. systemd is not the mafia. It's Free Software, you can do with it whatever you want, and that includes not using it. That's pretty much the opposite of "forcing". << lol ok, that's about the most disingenuous thing i read today. you know what else is free software ? BITCOIN!!!
(trilema) BingoBoingo: per <Luke-Jr> even I think systemd is crap
(trilema) BingoBoingo: The point is that to call systemd a lost cause I need not be important at all
(trilema) BingoBoingo: Now if GNU Hurd was a useful thing in 1991... systemd might be a thing.
(trilema) BingoBoingo: Look, the way Bitcoin regulation works is my TI-89 was my favorite computer loving ass said the systemd war is over and initd won. Give it time to stew, but that's the fina word.
(trilema) pankkake: I have written inits for systemd, debian, and openrc. have you?
(trilema) Azelphur: Everyone is talking about systemd, and I'm just sitting here using runit which nobody knows about.
(trilema) Luke-Jr: even I think systemd is crap
(trilema) mircea_popescu: and declarative by nature. That all said, if you are experienced in shell, then yes, adopting systemd will take a bit of learning."
(trilema) mircea_popescu: "systemd certainly comes with a learning curve. Everything does. However, we like to believe that it is actually simpler to understand systemd than a Shell-based boot for most people. Surprised we say that? Well, as it turns out, Shell is not a pretty language to learn, it's syntax is arcane and complex. systemd unit files are substantially easier to understand, they do not expose a programming language, but are simple
(trilema) BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> "we designed systemd with security in mind" << by now this is pretty much usable as-is, might as well be a protein binding site for pathogens. << Why not a still moar precarious binging site for understood drugs?
(trilema) mircea_popescu: Yes, systemd is fast (A pretty complete userspace boot-up in ~900ms, anyone?) << yeah ? since I dunno, 1995 ? i've always took the system apart if it needed more than a second.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: "we designed systemd with security in mind" << by now this is pretty much usable as-is, might as well be a protein binding site for pathogens.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: pankkake and in spite of the technical angle, what stinks to high heavens to me is the political angle. so gnome decides to not be dependent on systemd in 2012, then in 2013 they make it a de-facto dependency. because... heh. because why ?
(trilema) mircea_popescu: if the computer is the shirt, and initd is a tie and systemd is a bowtie, me saying that it's not as easy to hang someone by his bowtie is not answered by your proposition that ties can get stained too. sure, they can, but we were discussing hanging not disembowelment.
(trilema) BingoBoingo: pankkake: Because the Linux standard base lets me use a runlevel 4, systemd doesn't allow that
(trilema) pankkake: just list a valid technical point of why systemd is bad and I'll listen. as I said, the criticism I see just show lack of knowledge of both systemd and existing init systems
(trilema) mircea_popescu: pankkake you gonna tell me what the systemd butthurt was all about or just gonna rage silently and then come stab me 119 times in the middle of the night FOR NO FAULT OF MY OWN ?
(trilema) mircea_popescu: ered-down encryption (to use stronger encryption in many areas, such as AES-loop, you needed to compile your own kernel and go to great lengths to manually bypass barriers they put in place to the use of genuinely strong encryption). This told me then that those who controlled distributions were deeply in the pockets of intelligence networks. So it comes as no surprise to me that they jumped on board systemd when told
(trilema) mircea_popescu: o look, there's an entire systemd discussion in teh log.
(trilema) assbot: The Systemd war is over | Bingo Blog
(trilema) BingoBoingo: Agent Broachwala, you may find this weird, but I'll stand by http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2014/09/03/the-systemd-war-is-over/ longer than I'll stand by most of my baseball blog posts
(trilema) BingoBoingo: Or like systemd radiation would have been still moar trendy
(trilema) mircea_popescu: but anyway, systemd is what, the pulseaudio guy and this guy, right ?
(trilema) pankkake: nor is torvalds against systemd
(trilema) pankkake: ubuntu doesn't use systemd because it's shit
(trilema) mircea_popescu: apparently systemd devs have all the love and support they could use lol.
(trilema) assbot: systemd - Ubuntu Wiki
(trilema) mircea_popescu: "11. Ultimately, systemd's parasitism is symbolic of something more than systemd itself. It shows a radical shift in thinking by the Linux community. Not necessarily a positive one, either. One that is vehemently postmodern, monolithic, heavily desktop-oriented, choice-limiting, isolationist, reinvents the flat tire, and just a huge anti-pattern in general. If your goal is to pander to the lowest common denominator, so
(trilema) mircea_popescu: "systemd clusters itself into PID 1. Due to it controlling lots of different components, this means that there are tons of scenarios in which it can crash and bring down the whole system. But in addition, this means that plenty of non-kernel system upgrades will now require a reboot."
(trilema) mircea_popescu: "It's also worth noting that systemd will refuse to start as a user instance, unless the system boots with it as well"
(trilema) punkman: pankkake: well I have no clue, but is it that systemd is not retarded, or that the alternatives suck
(trilema) pankkake: the part of jumping of the "systemd is bad" bandwagon without any knowledge whatsoever
(trilema) mircea_popescu: By default, systemd saves core dumps to the journal, instead of the file system. Core dumps must be explicitly queried using coredumpctl4. Besides going against all reason, it also creates complications in multi-user environments (good luck running gdb on your program's core dump if it's dumped to the journal and you don't have root access)
(trilema) mircea_popescu: systemd's journal files (handled by journald) are stored in a complicated binary format2, and must be queried using journalctl. This makes journal logs potentially corruptible, as they do not have ACID-compliant transactions. You typically don't want that to happen to your syslogs. The advice of the systemd developers? Ignore it. No, seriously. Oh, and there's embedded HTTP server integration (libmicrohttpd). QR codes
(trilema) mircea_popescu: "1. systemd flies in the face of the Unix philosophy: "do one thing and do it well," representing a complex collection of dozens of tightly coupled binaries1. Its responsibilities grossly exceed that of an init system, as it goes on to handle power management, device management, mount points, cron, disk encryption, socket API/inetd, syslog, network configuration, login/session management, readahead, GPT partition disco
(trilema) BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: systemd-ism explains the nigbuntu suck
(trilema) mircea_popescu: "We do recognize the need for a new init system in the 21st century, but systemd is not it."
(trilema) assbot: boycott systemd
(trilema) BingoBoingo: .'. Systemd is worse than the cotton gin
(trilema) BingoBoingo: pankkake: I like having metric fucktons of knobs to turn on the way to runlevel 4. Systemd precludes that.
(trilema) BingoBoingo: pankkake: systemd is the devil
(trilema) pankkake: that systemd article is ridiculous…
(trilema) assbot: /evilgjb as of last week ALL processes have ppid==1 to bring the /hashtag/systemd?src=hash experience to /hashtag/FreeBSD?src=hash
(trilema) BingoBoingo: bitstein: Such as declaring limits to systemd's progress in the linuxscape
(trilema) assbot: The Systemd war is over | Bingo Blog
(trilema) BingoBoingo: I mean bitstein people here are making bold claims; http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2014/09/03/the-systemd-war-is-over/ AND you may be lost on the evidence
(trilema) decimation: asciilifeform: I take it you are not a 'systemd' fan?
(trilema) pankkake: no logger? or does upstart have one, like systemd?
(trilema) mircea_popescu: "Avahi is another Lenart Poetteing idea - like Pulse audio and systemd. These aren't bad ideas at all, but the implementation of each one has been a big headache. So submitting a bugzilla report that Lenart must address is a good way to slow/prevent the next 'Poetteing invention' from causing havoc."
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