Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2014-09-26 | 2014-09-28 →
BingoBoingo: In the courtroom, who doesn't want a pipe hitting member of the tribe on their team?
decimation: these days I doubt you would find much difference between 'mainstream' Christianity and 'mainstream' Judaism
assbot: Romans 11:19-24 NKJV - You will say then, Branches were - Bible Gateway
decimation: therefore I am dubious that folk would be able to differentiate
decimation: danielpbarron: how many Christian churches actively proselytize the Jews?
danielpbarron: how could I know such a thing?
assbot: Ezekiel 23:20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.
decimation: danielpbarron: I'm not accusing you of anything - I am just tired of nominal Christians in the us kowtowing to Israel
danielpbarron: i'm not worried about Israel -- God will do as he pleases
asciilifeform likes to suggest pondering theological implications of a glassed middle east
assbot: Why Christians Are Criticizing Cruz—and Israel | The American Conservative
danielpbarron: I doubt it very much, since the city of Jerusalem is literally God
danielpbarron: the hypothetical nuking of Israel, that is.
BingoBoingo: * asciilifeform likes to suggest pondering theological implications of a glassed middle east << With sufficient yields can make spotting the oil easier
danielpbarron: but try to nuke God; see what happens.
asciilifeform: if you get the same old crater - perhaps he lives elsewhere
assbot: Last 2 lines bashed and pending review. ( )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16522 @ 0.0007522 = 12.4278 BTC [+] {3}
BingoBoingo: Looking at his last century and spz. a sense of humor... perhaps god lives in Spain's sewers?
BingoBoingo: !up Mrstickball
BingoBoingo: !up hguux
BingoBoingo: Fuckers better win this baseball game
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9700 @ 0.00074941 = 7.2693 BTC [-] {2}
BingoBoingo: !up w0ot
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5900 @ 0.00074785 = 4.4123 BTC [-]
thestringpuller: silent as fuck tonight
assbot: Diamond Circle Launches First Cashless Bitcoin ATM
bounce: because compared to that evil cash, visa and mastercard are so much better propositions... for the customer.
xmj: another day
xmj: two more bash CVEs
xmj: :)
thestringpuller: two more?
thestringpuller: this is sorta terrifying
xmj: CVE-2014-7186 CVE-2014-7187
xmj: but, they're with moderate impact
xmj: thestringpuller: that's what happens when people actually start reading bloated software. same thing with openssl after libressl fork.
cazalla: BingoBoingo, these things almost alwawys come out down under
thestringpuller: !up moriarty
moriarty: visa and mastercard rules as a duopoly
xmj: there's american express, too
moriarty: they target the upper segment of the market
moriarty: but they're being crowded out by more prestigious but newer players
xmj: whom?
xmj: also: not the only difference.
BingoBoingo: Walmart has american express branded "financial products"
xmj: VISA + MasterCard provide the infrastructure but not the credit carts itself
xmj: banks need to refurbish Visa+MC.
xmj: AmEx does that directly
moriarty: JP Morgan Palladium for one
moriarty: sure, Visa and Mastercard are actually a consortium of banks that came together to merge their electronic funds transfer networks into one
moriarty: or two in this case
bounce: bleh, yet another marketeering vehicle
moriarty: so Visa came about from the now defunct IBANCO and Mastercard's counterpart is ICA
moriarty: and cards came about as a tabs based system between banks and departmental stores or oil companies
moriarty: so if you were a customer at a bank and you shopped at a departmental store, you could use such a card to settle your transactions
bounce: the problem is that the whole thing is optimised for appearance, not substance. technically the whole credit card thing doesn't work very well.
moriarty: and of course that's how American Express got its name
moriarty: because it was mainly dealing with postal deliveries in competition with the USPS
moriarty: so what you perceive as exclusivity today came from very humble beginnings :)
fluffypony: bounce: its because they were designed when ancient and crummy infrastructure was still a thinf
fluffypony: Thing
moriarty: lol thank god for the k-line
moriarty: it's about time such abuses were prevented
bounce: more specifically, the banking system is now so unavoidable (yet) and so privacy unfriendly that it's quickly becoming more of a hazard than a boon for the clients.
moriarty: bounce, there's always a tradeoff between convenience and security/privacy never forget that
bounce: tangentially, the more money and/or (benign) visibility you have, the easier it gets to right certain wrongs, perversely supporting broken systems like this.
bounce: that's a false dichotomy and therefore rationalisation bullshit
moriarty: bounce, and what's wrong with that
moriarty: if you're rich, then chances are you're doing something right
moriarty: and that offsets whatever you did wrong
bounce: we can do so much better, yet aren't doing it. we're making unnecessary tradeoffs and are telling ourselfs it's the best we can have so suck it up
moriarty: if you're poor then, well, you need to get started on balancing all the red in your ledgers
moriarty: bounce, it's the new world where if you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to hide
bounce: hi paris, congratulations on having stopped being poor
moriarty: paris has superior genes
bounce: will you donate the money for gene therapy against poorness to any and all poor who come asking?
assbot: Paris Hilton - Stars Are Blind HD - YouTube
xmj: you're evil, moriarty
moriarty: bounce, haha you're hilarious
bounce: logical conclusion from your own troll, dear
moriarty: xmj, at least i'm not google, i don't pretend to do no evil :) and then rape everyone
moriarty: xmj, it's funny how google and NSA have the same objectives as organisations
xmj: bounce: the cheaper option is to prevent dysgenics..
xmj: moriarty: one is private company
thestringpuller: Vidya games
xmj: moriarty: at least, google does not rely on government-granted monopoly of force
moriarty: xmj, both collect all data on everybody and exploit it
moriarty: xmj, same difference
xmj: moriarty: yes
xmj: moriarty: difference: you can buy GOOG stock and benefit from it
xmj: can't do that with NSA Inc.
moriarty: bounce, well, i am not against genetic therapy, as long as it's a permanent change and not a superficial treatment
moriarty: bounce, if you can fix your genes to be permanently superior, then i'm all for it
moriarty: i.e. when you pass it on to some offspring, you don't have to fix it again
assbot: Welcome to the City of London Corporation
bounce: if everybody does that then they're no longer superior
xmj: City of London Corporation
xmj: in case you were confused.
moriarty: xmj, with NSA, you can as well
moriarty: xmj, just buy the USD
xmj: moriarty: not the same thing
moriarty: xmj, sure it is
xmj: USD does not represent equity in the US government.
xmj: at best, it's foreign capital
BingoBoingo: Bah, moriarty You've gone some broken ideas on how stratification works
bounce: but the takeaway ought to be that you (ie, those in power) are rigging the system then blaming the victims for having let the system end up being rigged against them.
xmj: BingoBoingo: assortative mating works differently :)
xmj: bounce: that's a perfectly valid strategy
xmj: -- if you're sociopath
moriarty: xmj, oh you want a more direct implication? invest in Boeing, CSC, Northrop Grumman, Booz, SAIC
moriarty: need i say more? :)
xmj: moriarty: still not US Government equity
moriarty: xmj, you thought the NSA was designed for something other than economic superiority?
moriarty: xmj, oh you want something more direct, try t-bills
BingoBoingo: The point is if you are a Hilton that sucks, you can make porn or Biodiesel.
xmj: certainly: risk mitigation
moriarty: BingoBoingo, heh what's your view point on stratification?
xmj: jesus fucking christ.
moriarty: xmj, Boeing has no equity? :)
fluffypony: moriarty is best troll
moriarty: do you realise the extent of NSA's contractual dishouts?
xmj: fluffypony: yeah, he's currently driving me up the walls.
xmj: <3
xmj: i may learn from him
moriarty: it's to the tune of 8 billion yearly
xmj: but first, i have to finish porting GitLab to FreeBSD, it'll be done by tonight.
BingoBoingo: moriarty: Aristocracy is great, but... You've got to maintain a position in it. If you suck it doesn't matter that you're a Borgia.
moriarty: lol then again i don't think many people in here know too much about stocks or ##econometrics
xmj: BingoBoingo: assortative mating.
moriarty: so why am i wasting my breath on the uninitiated?
moriarty: BingoBoingo, agreed, but aristocracy is based on flair and looks :)
xmj: BingoBoingo: recently I read a paper on how English peers in the 14th through 16th century mated.
moriarty: BingoBoingo, if you're ugly or keep offending people, then chances are you won't last very long on that throne
bounce: where?
xmj: BingoBoingo: assortative mating is where it's at
xmj: :3
xmj: thankfully, good genes are heritable.
xmj: My plan is to become rich and marry a non-stupid model. :)
moriarty: brilliance in a super model
moriarty: lol that's the quintessential nerd's dream
moriarty: like that ever makes a difference when you're busy banging the broad
bounce: depends on what you're calling brilliant.
xmj: moriarty: everyone loves a good unicorn
moriarty: bounce, lol
xmj: moriarty: once you factor in genetics, you obviously want the unicorn.
moriarty: xmj, personally i prefer my broads dumb
bounce: well, you just all but declared your interest in ms. hilton, didn't you?
xmj: fluffypony: how long have you screened until you found your charming girl? :p
moriarty: bounce, of course :)
moriarty: bounce, wanna see my new girlfriend?
xmj: marrying rich is the other alternative..
fluffypony: xmj: met her when I was 28
moriarty: marrying rich is indicative that your spouse-to-be is not as bright as you claim you'd be attracted by
xmj: fluffypony: screened long enough, then?
moriarty: if they're marrying down, then they're not being very efficient
bounce: that depends entirely on what they themselves define to be efficient
xmj: moriarty: or you're showing promise to be rich on your own
fluffypony: xmj: yeah, call it 10 years or so:-P
xmj: fluffypony: :)
moriarty: bounce, evolution has a pretty standardised template on that
moriarty: xmj, promise is not the same as track record
xmj: yeah, well, promise is promise
moriarty: xmj, seems i have to dumb everything down for you
moriarty: xmj, yeah you can promise me the moon, doesn't mean jack
bounce: IOW, what they want out of life. definitions of "success" differ markedly across various people.
xmj: moriarty: water is wet, did you know?
moriarty: show me the money, xmj
moriarty: bounce, success as defined by evolutionary survival
xmj: bounce: tru dat. certain people consider 5+ children as success
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18970 @ 0.00075176 = 14.2609 BTC [+] {2}
bounce: some think a few kids but a giant nest egg would serve them better
moriarty: defining your own success metrics means nothing in the face of being a top-ranked hustler in society
moriarty: it's all about how high you climb in society in terms of status, power and fortune
bounce: some think dumb women are easier to handle and therefore a surer way to success
moriarty: :) and with that comes the implicit requirements for looks, intellect and social grace
moriarty: bounce, i like dumb women because they know how society functions
moriarty: bounce, the smart women are the ones who have trouble adapting to society
bounce: why haven't you moved to some islamic country yet?
moriarty: bounce, heh there's a difference between being dumb, and being dumb
bounce: sure, invent arbitrary differences to support your "argument"
moriarty: it's arbitrary to someone who does not get the nuances of popularity, status and how society functions
bounce: girls /might/ learn to read there, but that's it. no education, instant knowledge how society functions. there you go.
moriarty: when i say dumb, it's not as simple as academics
moriarty: lol dumb is someone in the words of Deng Xiaoping, cherish obscurity, hide brilliance
bounce: that's no models for you then
moriarty: well how big is China's economy now?
moriarty: some model
bounce: nononono, models derive existence and proceeds from being seen
bounce: you can't have both here
bounce: same with trophy wives, for that matter
xmj: 10:42:57 <+moriarty> it's all about how high you climb in society in terms of status, power and fortune
xmj: ultra-calvinist point of view
xmj: it's about creating a Legacy.
BingoBoingo: !up moriarty
moriarty: bounce, well, the effects are visible without having to explicitly state one's own brilliance
moriarty: i think that's what is meant when someone aspires for an intellectual girl
moriarty: i.e. someone who explicitly shows off her intellectual prowess, and while that's welcome, it is the more subtle girl who exerts her intelligence socially that is probably someone i admire more, moreover because social mastery is something more elusive than academic
bounce: "dumb" isn't the right word for that, not even close.
moriarty: and a girl who is confident in her intelligence need not always be so nerdy about it, i.e. she can act like a normal human being without telling me about the intricacies of quantum field theory and the fundamental tradeoffs between continuous/discretisation of spacetime continuum binded together by the graviton or loop quantum gravity
moriarty: sure, on outward appearance she appears dumb because she likes all the conventional things that a popular girl likes :) hair straighteners, mixers, proms, but i value such a girl who can master social situations and get people to do what she wants implicitly
moriarty: and academic mastery is trivial at this point :) so she need not flaunt it because well, flaunting your intellectual superiority is a surefire way to arouse envy and be at odds with having social grace
moriarty: so yeah quintessentially dumb :)
moriarty: but my kind of girl
bounce: think your definition of "not dumb" is a bit too narrow. there's such a thing as kinds of intelligence (we know this inasmuch as we know what intelligence is anyway, which we don't, not really), and what you're rooting for is "social intelligence", something girls tend to be better with than boys
moriarty: xmj, well if calvinism is attributable as a predecessor to capitalism then i don't see what's so bad about it
bounce: whereas your definition inasmuch as it is one also includes girls that have no intelligence whatsoever, of any kind. those exist too, you know.
moriarty: with regards to paving the way for making usury and profit-taking more acceptable socially
thestringpuller: where did fluffypony go?
bounce: out to pasture
moriarty: bounce, exactly :) well, i am alluding to the typical profiling of dumb vs non-dumb girls
fluffypony: I'm still here
moriarty: bounce, the perception that comes with what constitutes a dumb girl and an intellectual girl is more deceptive than first sight
assbot: The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
fluffypony: Jusr not paying much attention to the convo
fluffypony: Cause on iPad
bounce: sorry to hear that
xmj gives fluffypony keyboard
moriarty: xmj, sure i'm aware of how calvinism leads to capitalism in response to some hindering medieval positions of how we cannot contribute to our own betterment
moriarty: xmj, and i'm all for that :)
bounce: curious how some religions cause people to better themselves and others to mostly kill everybody else
moriarty: xmj, the model of self-reliance is a good model to have, it dispels away with all the illnesses and perversions that comes with a more fatalistic view of society, think conspiracy theorists, suicide bombers, basically people who perceive their own destinies are unchangeable and thus resort to such desperate measures or justification of reality in order to make life more livable
xmj: bounce: protestantism lead to betterment mostly via increasing the literacy rate
moriarty: bounce, well, religion is basically philosophy
xmj: you can actually track that throgh earlier, higher, GDP growth.
moriarty: bounce, ultimately the superior philosophy prevails
moriarty: bounce, that's why some countries are superior to others
xmj: especially if you compare against catholic parts of countries/countries
moriarty: philosophy underpins constitutions, and if you set up your nation proper, then you will get a thriving economic powerhouse
moriarty: set it up wrongly, and you are doomed permanently
moriarty: my viewpoint is people's elections of leadership is missing the point
bounce: there's a bunch busily proving you wrong there
BingoBoingo: <moriarty> bounce, well, religion is basically philosophy << Bold claim
moriarty: if your constitution is fucked, then you're better off emigrating
moriarty: BingoBoingo, how's that?
bounce: for one because religion tends to contain a lot of "shut up and do what I say"
BingoBoingo: moriarty: Religion generally requires Spz. additional dependencies that philosophy per it self doesn't
BingoBoingo: Things like faith, etc.
moriarty: BingoBoingo, sure, and philosophy doesn't require faith? :)
BingoBoingo: Not in all of its forms.
moriarty: BingoBoingo, what do you think all the axioms require in a philosophical model if not faith?
BingoBoingo: Who needs axioms?
moriarty: BingoBoingo, even science requires faith
moriarty: everything needs axioms as Godel would have you know
bounce: nothing requires you to believe the axioms.
moriarty: bounce, then you cannot build any system of belief without it
moriarty: or any logical system even
BingoBoingo: There was a great gulf between Euclid and Pythagorus
bounce: building on axioms goes like "IFF these are true THEN it follows that...", bit of a difference from "these things ARE TRUE regardless of what reality says BECAUSE GOD TOLD ME SO"
moriarty: bounce, well it's no different then saying, IFF God tells me so THEN it follows that...
bounce: you really see no difference in that?
moriarty: bounce, nope
bounce: then philosophy is dogma to you, innit
BingoBoingo: No difference at all?
moriarty: bounce, pretty much :)
moriarty: bounce, are you familiar with Godel's incompleteness theorem?
BingoBoingo: I don't know what confusion of ideas can lead to this conversation.
moriarty: tell me in a one-liner what you think the first incompleteness theorem is espousing
moriarty: let me help clarify your confusion, BingoBoingo
moriarty: the first incompleteness theorem states that under the proper conditions, there are statements that are true but not provable
moriarty: and these are a result from a non-isomorphic model as proven by Lowenheim-Skolem in first order logic
moriarty: the second part of Godel's exposition states that under proper conditions, a strong formal system cannot prove its consistency
moriarty: think axiom of choice, or Zorn's lemma being equivalent over the ZF set theory as such attempts and the findings prove as much
BingoBoingo: And yet the Moon rocket worked.
bounce: that still doesn't require belief. let me give you a simile.
moriarty: the power of ##econometrics and mathematics leads you to such mind-clarifying conclusions :) never underestimate the power of knowledge to distill the world with such ease
moriarty: BingoBoingo, sure, or that a bitcoin trader profited
moriarty: what does that tell you? not a lot
moriarty: are his axioms or beliefs correct? maybe, maybe not
moriarty: it's the classical Humean induction dilemma
moriarty: bounce, sure, go ahead
BingoBoingo: moriarty: Well what happen to poor Cantor in the end after meditating on Cardinality so long?
BingoBoingo: How bored as a lens grinder did SPinoza have to be to develop his system?
bounce: consider, if you will, philosophy to ideas as math is to numbers; you can start with axioms and build on top of them. you can admire the building, you can refine it, you can start over and build something else. nothing requires to believe in your own bullshit, though if you'd like, you can at your own peril. probably going to get you some scorn from other philosophers if you do.
moriarty: BingoBoingo, how much fun did Feynman have as raconteur, playboy and bongo player :)
BingoBoingo: How funny are fundamentals, when you consider the anatomic fundament?
moriarty: BingoBoingo, how wealthy did Newton die off in the end and the power he amassed politically and economically?
moriarty: for every ludicrous example you have there are more counterexamples :)
bounce: in comparison and contrast, religion typically starts with teaching you about a building constructed aeons ago, likely by confused shepherds high on whatever it was they were smoking, and requires you to live by its tenets. quite possibly at the peril of your life, if not at least at the peril of your eternal soul.
bounce: equate them and you'd be equating brazilian slums to downtown london or something. it's a little confused.
BingoBoingo: !up Feynman, Newton worked on problems with applications. Cantor, Spinoza drowned in fundamentals.
BingoBoingo: !up moriarty
moriarty: bounce, religion is basically at its most simplest an assortment of teachings on how to live life optimally within the constructs of society at that point in time
moriarty: bounce, this is not too dissimilar from constitutions of today which are viewed with such sacred respect
xmj: fun fact: ideology is virtually indistinguishable from religion
moriarty: bounce, and as such is impossible to modify the tenets of
xmj: every ideological sect has its pope.
moriarty: xmj, exactly!
moriarty: took the words right out of my mouth
xmj: including the anarchists
moriarty: righto
moriarty: BingoBoingo, the fundamentals elucidate the applications
moriarty: BingoBoingo, fact is, without fundamentals, you cannot achieve any sort of meaningful application, you're as good as monkeys with typewriters
moriarty: with fundamentals, it becomes glaringly obvious how to apply and optimise a fit-for-purpose invention
xmj: bounce: if you're not perceived as believing in your own philosophy, you'll a) not sell it and b) be considered hypocrite
moriarty: that's how it is with technical analysis vis-a-vis ##econometrics :-) heh
xmj: why develop a philosophy if you don't believe in it?
moriarty: in one, you do lots of application, in the other you do applications too, but you understand the fundamentals driving your model
moriarty: ask any TA-er what they understand
moriarty: you'd find very little if anything
BingoBoingo: !up blast
moriarty: xmj, because the mind is a playground
moriarty: xmj, playing devil's advocate has never been funner :) it exercises your otherwise bored mind and allows you to travel from one ideology to another and have fun with them
xmj: moriarty: devil's advocate requires taking someone else's ideology, putting it into a jail/sandbox, examining it
fluffypony: Funner is not a word
xmj: you can't play devils advocate on your own philosophies
xmj: you cannot conceivably play devil AND devil's advocate in one person UNLESS maybe you're really multiple.
xmj: or schizo
xmj: fluffypony: shush
moriarty: xmj, lol the world is not dichotomous and neither should individuals be :)
xmj: vague inapplicable statement is vague inapplicable
moriarty: xmj, and sure you can, it's not too dissimilar from the film Divergent :)
xmj: moriarty: if you want, i can spam you with vague statements that are technically correct and don't mean shit.
xmj: please don't do this.
moriarty: xmj, let's try a little credo, i see ideologies as part of a continuum, many of the questions i am interested in lies in the intersection, i tend to think in terms of probability distributions rather than dichotomous epistemic categories
moriarty: xmj, does that clarify things better now?
moriarty: sorry i tend to assume people know what i'm talking about
xmj: lies in the intersection of WHAT?
moriarty: ideologies
moriarty: is that clear?
xmj: you really really suck in terms of language preciseness, did you realize that yet?
moriarty: do you understand now?
moriarty: well, i tend to assume people are well-read
moriarty: so when i use certain phrases, it elucidates certain concepts and principles from famous books and works
moriarty: but hey if you need me to espouse further i'm always happy to oblige
xmj: you know, you're a dickhead.
xmj: "I tend to assume people are well-read"
moriarty: hehe
xmj: yeah, i'm well-read
xmj: and yeah, you suck at communicating precisely.
xmj: stop being a dickhead.
xmj: be precise from the beginning
moriarty: precision takes time
moriarty: that's why culture exists
moriarty: when you make a joke, you don't want to explain the entire innuendo and corresponding nuances associated to be precise about your joke
moriarty: it's the imprecision that captivates, makes you giggle
moriarty: and if you don't get the joke, well, explaining it would kill the joke
bounce: therefore, you are the joke
moriarty: the double, triple, quadruple entendres
bounce kills moriarty
moriarty: lol bounce
xmj: ...
bounce sets mode +rumpelstiltskin on user moriarty for channel #bitcoin-assets
moriarty: pshaw
moriarty: xmj, but in short, philosophies are nothing more than gedanken experiments designed to hypothesize what would happen in a given closed loop system, and then society tests them
moriarty: xmj, and generally the optimal solutions lie at the intersections, which ironically if you think about it is the textbook definition of creativity
xmj: that's like saying
xmj: sex is nothing more than a theory, and then people fuck
moriarty: the intersection of factoids in our minds is the hallway of creativity
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 6 @ 0.14300002 = 0.858 BTC [-] {2}
xmj: do you realize how inconsistent you think?
moriarty: when you transcend one discipline with a concept, and apply it in another discipline, that's creativity in a nutshell
moriarty: xmj, maybe english is not your first language
xmj: well, duh.
moriarty: so it seems imprecise, but every different word has a slightly different implication
moriarty: and simplifying statements would not make it easier to understand them
xmj: moriarty: maybe thinking is not your best activity.
moriarty: you lose the meaning actually
bounce: even so, you're making a right hash of things
xmj: holy cow
xmj: see, and this is why i like talking to people on the autistic spectrum when it comes to philosophy.
xmj: at least they're FUCKING PRECISE about things.
moriarty: lol you mean people whose backgrounds in philosophy are as shallow as yours?
moriarty: because every concept representable by a phrase or term in philosophy has books written supporting it
xmj: FUCK OFF.
moriarty: and to drill down what those concepts are about precisely is to have a conversation extending to years
xmj: holy crap.
bounce: shush xmj
bounce: moriarty, don't be an ass please
moriarty: you think i'm joking?
xmj: plonk /ignore -replies moriarty
moriarty: lol you think Heidegger exists in isolation?
moriarty: the whole of philosophy is a continuous conversation dating back to Aristotle
xmj: No time for wishy-washy blabla.
bounce: yes, but you're using that as a load of rationalising crap for your own shoddy use of language. call it somewhat self-serving.
moriarty: the problem with autistic people or my understanding of the crowd you're referring to, is that they are used to neat and concise models that exist inscience
moriarty: in science*
moriarty: no such models exist in philosophy
moriarty: i don't know if any of you have ever done any humanities
moriarty: but the classic distinction with the liberal arts is that they tend to require an exponential effort in reading material
xmj: ?
xmj: RagnarDanneskjol: sup?
bounce: so what's the exponent?
moriarty: bounce, lol what?
xmj: me?
bounce: see? you're using terms of art and when called upon them go like "lol what?"
xmj: k
moriarty: bounce, i said exponential, not exponent
bounce: hmhm
moriarty: when i was involved in finance, my amount of reading went up hundred-fold, sure, there was a lot of overlap, but they cover different situations, and it's a bit like chess, you read all the possible moves and what you can do from there
moriarty: that's the arts
moriarty: there is no simple equation that governs most scenarios
moriarty: the same it is in philosophy or law
xmj: some people have their precision removed and think they don't
xmj: happens all the time.
bounce: law is a good case in point for what xmj was saying; you need to be very precise in what you say. a misplaced comma can easily cost millions of dollars.
RagnarDanneskjol: vaguely precise even will do
bounce: sure it's a lot of reading and sure there are a lot of people saying confused things, perhaps even deliberately confusing issues.
bounce: but that doesn't change the basic fact that if you actually do say exactly what you mean you still typically have a better chance of getting the point across
xmj: bounce: precisely
xmj: explicit > implicit
xmj: precise > vague
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11000 @ 0.00074835 = 8.2319 BTC [-]
jurov is looking forward to the fateful day when someone suceeds in feeding of all humanitites to a computer and creating an ontology
jurov: "standing on the shoulders of giants"
jurov: or rather, piling of chairs
bounce: "nobody told them the input they passed wouldn't be taken as data but as code, yet it's their fault anyhow"
bounce: maybe the writer thinks there's great value into twisting logic like this, but he surely does not have much appreciation for the cost.
jurov: everyone took the environment variables at face value for 15 years... that's beyone assinging the blame
jurov: *beyond
jurov: interesting that zsh does nothing like bash with env vars, just passes them around
RagnarDanneskjol: !up deedBot
jurov: someone must have decided about it when coding zsh, yet nobdy realized
RagnarDanneskjol: !up MolokoDesk
RagnarDanneskjol: hey jurov, wanna see the deedbot
jurov: hi deedbot
assbot: deedbot test 9.26.14 -
deedBot: KeyID: B98228A001ABFFC7 deed with 1 signatory.
deedBot: KeyID: 35D2E1A0457E6498 deed with 1 signatory.
deedBot: deed keyID: B98228A001ABFFC7 trust: 12 nick: asciilifeform (valid and scheduled for next bundle)
deedBot: deed keyID: 35D2E1A0457E6498 trust: 3 nick: RagnarDanneskjol (valid and scheduled for next bundle)
RagnarDanneskjol: now we wait until the top of the hour
MolokoDesk: Cyc was/is supposed to be somewhat like that. I think it doesn't handle what linguists call scripts or scenarios, but Lenat and OpenCYC are aware of the issues.
MolokoDesk: (talking about feeding humanities into a computer and creating an ontology)
MolokoDesk: heh. I was reading about Alain Badiou last few days. He counterposes ontologies with "events" that break the ontology. His stuff is peculiar. Philosophers seem to be looking for/looking at things like unfalsifiable hypotheses, and areas where logic breaks down, the nature of paradoxes and at various limiting cases of systematized thought.
MolokoDesk: stuff currently outside the envelope of "understandabilty" or "logical resolution".
MolokoDesk: anyway, ragnar suggests it's feasible to poll or access gribble via an http interface of some sort without going through IRC/freenode.
MolokoDesk: I was initially scraping bitcoin-otc's web of trust search tools to get the trust metrics.
RagnarDanneskjol: yes that - for this context
bounce: openpgp in javascript. oh dear.
MolokoDesk: apparently that's not "trusted" here. not sure why. I know gribble is the software agent that maintains the bitcoin-otc WoT data structure.
punkman: MolokoDesk: you can keep a local copy of gribble's database, update once a day or something
jurov: or ask how assbot is doing it
RagnarDanneskjol: opengpg java is 'just' as secure as anything else assuming its totally isolated
MolokoDesk: ok. one scenario I was talking about a few minutes ago was someone vandalizes the bot and has their rating lowered below access threshold, but they're still trusted by deedBot and deedBot keeps getting vandalized.
MolokoDesk: the other scenario is someone urgently needs to register contracts to they're up-rated to +2 to access the bot, but it won't recognize their new rating because it "already has" that info.
MolokoDesk: so right now I'm looking up the trust metric for each batch of incoming contracts. it's not that much overhead.
MolokoDesk: making a resident agent that sit's in IRC and relays requests coming in over HTTP to gribble would work.
MolokoDesk: make a tiny webserver combined with a very limited IRC bot.
MolokoDesk: the webserver only has to open sockets and fork() a process occasionally.
MolokoDesk: it's like a 20 line program if even that.
MolokoDesk: not that I want to do that.
MolokoDesk: if there's an http interface to gribble's database that would work too. some SQL-ish RPC-ish thing.
punkman: you can grab raw data here
assbot: Index of /otc
MolokoDesk: if there's confidence that the bitcoin-otc website /WoT site is not insecure I can just use my old code to get trust metrics over the web. It's the same database.
MolokoDesk: thanx, punkman. clue.
MolokoDesk: heh. the database is smaller than most image files.
punkman: I don't think you need to worry about vandalism or urgency
MolokoDesk: i wonder how often those are update.
RagnarDanneskjol: 15 mins i think
MolokoDesk: .calc 24*15
deedBot: 24 * 15 = 360
MolokoDesk: i shouldhave known that from celestial navigation. each hour is 15 degrees of arc.
RagnarDanneskjol: all that celestial navigation you do
MolokoDesk: "SQLite format" ... header in RatingSystem.db
MolokoDesk: yeah, writing all the SQLishness to query that database for a few people seems overkill.
MolokoDesk: scaling to bitcoin-otc though it would make sense.
RagnarDanneskjol: might be worth finding out exactly how nano uses the db to inform gribbl
punkman: it's on github
assbot: nanotube/supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor GitHub
RagnarDanneskjol: i thought only sourcedforge
MolokoDesk: just getting set up to read that .db file could take all day
RagnarDanneskjol: i thought that was just one gribble's modules
punkman: why? sqlite is easy
MolokoDesk: SQLite dependencies, and associated system adminstration.
MolokoDesk: yeah, it's easy if you want to get involved in all that.
punkman: you are confusing sqlite with other beasts perhaps
MolokoDesk: if it's importable into mySQL it would be easy.
MolokoDesk: well.. let's see.. first you have to apt-get SQLite and hope it runs...
MolokoDesk: assuming you have sudo access on the server it's going to run on...
MolokoDesk: I think you see the problem
MolokoDesk: something can be easy but take a week to get working.
MolokoDesk: especially something I already have two solutions to.
MolokoDesk: but yeah, there's the data on a platter.
MolokoDesk: and it's good to know about.
RagnarDanneskjol: MolokoDesk - tracking bundle in other chan
punkman: yeah just query gribble on demand and be done with it
punkman: but you should try sqlite when you get a chance, it's good stuff
punkman: (for some other project that is)
deedBot: time=1411812358 LAST_BUNDLE_TIME=1411812025 elapsed=333
deedBot: TRACKING: BUNDLE_PENDING-12e5euoDVvFGoS2V2QY1CB1mn97ETfVfSM.txt = (address = 12e5euoDVvFGoS2V2QY1CB1mn97ETfVfSM) (mtime = 1411812018) (ctime = 1411812025)
deedBot: DEEDBOT_CHAN=#cex-squawk ERROR_CHAN=MolokoDesk INTERVAL=3600
deedBot: Undefined offset: 2 deedBot.php LINE 1860 Sat 2014-Sep-27 08:31:53 UTC (1 errors)
deedBot: (switching DEEDBOT_CHAN from #cex-squawk to #bitcoin-assets)
MolokoDesk: deedBot needs to be.. ok. yeah, told that it's now operating in this channel using .dump
deedBot: deedBot BTC available balance: 0.00140000 in wallet 1NTSD9jVvumurTotaW7Crqe5DfRxBrJzqu
deedBot: deedBot unconfirmed sent: -0.00011000
MolokoDesk: i may use SQLite instead of mySQL eventuall.
MolokoDesk checks to see if SQLite is already installed.
MolokoDesk: postalrocket
MolokoDesk: wrong window.
deedBot: Deed bundle published to filename: 322765-12e5euoDVvFGoS2V2QY1CB1mn97ETfVfSM.txt
assbot: DEEDS
MolokoDesk: gosh. it is installed.
punkman: they have pretty good docs too
assbot: SQLite Documentation
RagnarDanneskjol: !up MolokoDesk
RagnarDanneskjol: !up deedBot
RagnarDanneskjol: hey punkman, this is my friend MolokoDesk - do you mind rating him so he can self voice?
punkman: ;;rate MolokoDesk 1 made deedbot
gribble: Rating entry successful. Your rating of 1 for user MolokoDesk has been recorded.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3177 @ 0.00074943 = 2.3809 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2050 @ 0.00074943 = 1.5363 BTC [-]
MolokoDesk: (well. so far none of the command line commands work in sqlite on a linux box with RatingSystem.db listed as the "main" database. won't show the tables etc.
punkman: are you using sqlite3?
MolokoDesk: oh. that's because sqlite destroyed the file when I opened it with sqlite.
bounce: sounds useful
MolokoDesk: no. it's 2.8.17 I don't admin this box so I can't change that.
MolokoDesk: I'm sure this totally works if you're used to using it.
punkman: and it destroyed the file? that sounds improbable
punkman: you probably have sqlite3 installed as well
MolokoDesk: sqlite> open ?RatingSystem.db?;
MolokoDesk: SQL error: near "open": syntax error
MolokoDesk: it's like it thinks it's opening a new database with that name and zeros the file.
MolokoDesk: laff. nevermind. I was in the wrong directory, so it was, in fact, creating the database file.
MolokoDesk: ok. got it. sqlite3 RatingSystem.db then .output FOO.txt then .dump .quit cat FOO.txt
MolokoDesk: now I have the SQL command file to create the database.
RagnarDanneskjol: !down MolokoDesk
MolokoDesk: anyway, I don't wanna spam a bunch of newb sqlite3 agony here. Thanks for the suggestion regarding a new tool.
bounce: how's your command of SQL in general?
MolokoDesk: I've been doing it for a long time off and on. since like uh... 1980s
MolokoDesk: it's probably a turing-complete language, though I've never used it that way.
MolokoDesk: also one needs to know about various exploits that can get through various "...real_sql_string()" filters
MolokoDesk: and a buncha other stuff.
RagnarDanneskjol: !up deedBot
bounce: it is if you include the recursion extensions. how about relational algebra?
MolokoDesk: yeah, I'm kind of a math head, SQL looks sort of like COBOL or something. it works.
MolokoDesk: I use regular expressions frequently.
xmj: RagnarDanneskjol: haha for downing him and failing
MolokoDesk: knowing when to use various joins and such to reduce the computational load of searches or relations between tables.
MolokoDesk: when to index.
bounce: plenty people using "sql" turn out to've little inklink of the theory backing the thing and so aren't very good at using it what it's for--expressing relations between data. then you end up with a glorified key/value store, which is a waste of all that complexity. such people think mysql is a good idea.
MolokoDesk: oh yeah, designing the database to reflect how it's going to be used and the semantics of the data and the relations between the tables etc.
MolokoDesk: there are a lot of high level skills involved that wouldn't be reflected in the language reference card.
punkman: bounce, and people that know a lot of the theory tend to come up with shitty schemas
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42441 @ 0.0007537 = 31.9878 BTC [+] {4}
MolokoDesk: heh.there are conflicts of interest having to do with actually having to write and maintain a program. Many developers have no long term relationship with the results of their work, so they're concerned with optmizing return on their time with a customer they're probably only going to work with once.
MolokoDesk: so you get this quick and dirty code that's kind of awful in such a case.
MolokoDesk: some people get paid for coding instead of thinking.
MolokoDesk: essentially.
bounce: some people even get paid too much to write good code, so they write shitty code instead. too expensive to do it right.
MolokoDesk: open source may have remedied that culturally. If everyone is going to see your code it matters what it does, how it does it and what it looks like.
bounce: still plenty of awful open source code Out There
punkman: not awful is the exception
MolokoDesk: there are all kinds of oblique proverbs about commercial software development like: "good, fast and cheap, choose any two"
punkman: like sqlite :P
MolokoDesk: there's relative awful and absolute awful. Absolute awful would be something that does a join using a loop and a bunch of separate lookups. You'll see people who use declarative languages and aren't aware of the judo available in SQL. They often have no idea what the computer is actually doing, just what the language constructs accomplish in terms of final output.
bounce: two things I dislike about sqlite really. its lack of type checking, and it having become a bit of a hype, a "must have" in certain circles.
punkman: who hypes sqlite?
MolokoDesk: another uh delusion, I guess, is that SQL is supposed to make it easier to program. Every few years there's some software putsch that claims "you'll never have to program again, our language is so user-friendly and intuitive" I think SQL was originally promoted that way. It was going to be some 4th generation language.
MolokoDesk: code generator products.
MolokoDesk: you may find this amusing. I hope this is the one I'm thinking of. it gets increasingly gnarly in describing these computer-science diasters intrinsic to php.
assbot: PHP: a fractal of baddesign / fuzzy notepad
MolokoDesk: I use php a lot though, as a sketchpad language for rapid prototyping. it lets one do a lot without thinking about the details.
MolokoDesk: it's very weakly-typed.
MolokoDesk: I think it has implicit type conversion inconsistencies too.
deedBot: (One hour since last deed bundle scan: Sat 2014-Sep-27 11:00:27 UTC)
punkman: best to minimize the number of lines deedbot prints
MolokoDesk: this is verbose deedBot. nothing but a terse summary of what it decided about the contract in your pastebin bundle at the beginning, and an announcement of where it publishes the hourly bundles will show eventually/soon/next
MolokoDesk: the cuckoo clock announcement at the top of the hour... I'll turn that off now. and reload the bot. if nobody's waiting for a bundle to track to the blockchain.
RagnarDanneskjol: noone's waiting
punkman: mm some rain, finally
punkman: tea time
MolokoDesk: .dump
RagnarDanneskjol: !up deedBot
MolokoDesk: .dump
deedBot: time=1411816106 LAST_BUNDLE_TIME=1411815600 elapsed=506
deedBot: DEEDBOT_CHAN=#bitcoin-assets ERROR_CHAN=MolokoDesk INTERVAL=3600
MolokoDesk: just wanted to check something: that you can't set the main channel to a nick.
MolokoDesk: (you can't)
assbot: dpaste: 3WT0JW5
assbot: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 What words say does not last. -
deedBot: KeyID: 33588BE08B232B13 deed with 1 signatory.
deedBot: deed keyID: 33588BE08B232B13 trust: 8 nick: punkman (valid and scheduled for next bundle)
cazalla: betting league tonight BingoBoingo?
cazalla: panthers v bulldogs big game
RagnarDanneskjol: !down deedBot
RagnarDanneskjol: !up deedBot
RagnarDanneskjol: !up RagnarsBitch
MolokoDesk: it handled an SHA1?
MolokoDesk: I wonder if you created a collision with two deeds that close together.
MolokoDesk: I probably need to add the queue we were discussing, ragnar.
MolokoDesk: or a refractory period where it rejects a barrage of fast deed requests.
RagnarsBitch: Its always done sha1 fine
RagnarsBitch: What is prob
MolokoDesk: I think the sha1 test case I was using wasn't in WoT at the time is why I've never noticed one before.
RagnarsBitch: I think you were. Still what's the issue?
MolokoDesk: I think if it's in the process of waiting for gribble and you dump another incoming deed bundle, the unbundler is asynchronous and can stomp on the chain of gribble dialogs and force a new one to start.
MolokoDesk: the obvious solution is to put the pastebin tokens into a queue and handle them one at a time regardless of how fast they come in.
RagnarsBitch: Again, where do you see it as an issue
MolokoDesk: if someone sets the expiration time on a pastebin to 1 minute that might not be so swell. Nobody should do that though.
RagnarsBitch: Last deed is fine
MolokoDesk: It may have just been an issue. what if two people just happen to want to .deed something at the same instant?
RagnarsBitch: Not a big concern
MolokoDesk: or someone writes a bot to spew a few deeds they have laying around.
RagnarsBitch: well that is a gribbl prob too
MolokoDesk: notice that punkman did 3WT0JW5 then did almost immediately 7ZHFZCPE
MolokoDesk: and didn't get an acknowledgement from deedBot about the first one ... 3WT0JW5
MolokoDesk: or... was deedBot not voiced?
RagnarsBitch: Right, first one is like a popup text thingy
RagnarsBitch: It couldn't be read
MolokoDesk: oh duh. it's dpaste not pastebin my bad.
MolokoDesk: thanks, shows how I skim text in IRC.
MolokoDesk: I wouldn't run a trading exchange without an incoming queue.
MolokoDesk: you'd lose orders.
MolokoDesk: this is more like a xerox machine that signs in blood.
MolokoDesk: if it doesn't work the first time you make another copy.
MolokoDesk: nah, I'm going to fix that.
MolokoDesk: it creeps me out that there's no incoming queue.
MolokoDesk: dunno when though.
MolokoDesk: ok. it's stopped raining here and I have some chores to run out there.
MolokoDesk: back in a while.
RagnarsBitch: Take your time
RagnarsBitch: punkman - if you wanna see deed confirmation, need to keep bot voiced for next hour. Awaiting direction on who's to register/ hold the keys for it
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 4 @ 0.14210001 = 0.5684 BTC [-] {3}
punkman: !up deedBot
deedBot: BTC SPENT: amount_withdrawn = 0.00011000 TRACKING: BUNDLE_PENDING-1EURX82WPk2Yv6TLQMXGxwYJpaUsDs6tvj.txt
punkman: .dump
deedBot: time=1411819259 LAST_BUNDLE_TIME=1411819216 elapsed=43
deedBot: TRACKING: BUNDLE_PENDING-1EURX82WPk2Yv6TLQMXGxwYJpaUsDs6tvj.txt = (address = 1EURX82WPk2Yv6TLQMXGxwYJpaUsDs6tvj) (mtime = 1411819202) (ctime = 1411819216)
deedBot: DEEDBOT_CHAN=#bitcoin-assets ERROR_CHAN=MolokoDesk INTERVAL=3600
deedBot: Deed bundle published to filename: 322774-1EURX82WPk2Yv6TLQMXGxwYJpaUsDs6tvj.txt
assbot: DEEDS
punkman: ;;balance 1EURX82WPk2Yv6TLQMXGxwYJpaUsDs6tvj
gribble: 0.0001
MolokoDesk: !up deedBot
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17597 @ 0.00075121 = 13.219 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21850 @ 0.00075383 = 16.4712 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: myriadgetsmehard: ben you are acting like the dinosaurs i get enough shit from man :) << the age old solution tried first by the infant confronted with the unimpressed adults ? make an infant support group!
mircea_popescu: this is why beatings are so important for education : people will do the right thing just as soon as all apparent alternatives have been exhausted. if children are isolated and beaten into submission, you wil have poetry and scientific research.
mircea_popescu: if children are allowed to form support groups from reality, you will have reddit.
mircea_popescu: the problem being, of course, that once this fork has been passed there's no way back. there isn't a phase transition from manchild seeking support from reality to adult. there's just a choice, at a narrow band of time during preadolescence somewhere.
mircea_popescu: if you learn japanese when you're 1 yo, you're a native speaker. if you don't, you might be able to learn some semblance later on, but for most people it'll never happen, and for a tiny minority it will still overwhelmingly never be as good.
mircea_popescu: once this support seeking habit forms, overwhelming it is nigh on impossible, and in any case overwhelming it would require the one thing that its existence prevents : a working mind.
mircea_popescu: dub: get back to me when you've stood in a cold noisy DC on a con call to mumbai for 15 hours <<< virgin after her first time : "hey, fucking is kinda fun!" old whore : "get back to me after you've had to clean two dozen sailor pricks honey"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: also lol, mircea_popescu getting his boxes off dhcp just today...? < no, actually, "you had one job" woman forgot to pay netbill, ended up plugging their wifi into one of my spares so they can has interwebs they don't deserve.
mircea_popescu: dignork: they do have something commercial, but I did not look too close <<< then people wonder why there's a bubble. why hello sir, when people can't be bothered with even looking at the "products" their name is so bad, i suspek perhaps it may be the case there's going to be problems achieving cashflow. just a hunch.
mircea_popescu: but don't mind me, by all means, please continue, advertise to the social media crowd, that's where the power is lmao.
mircea_popescu: o hey! MolokoDesk hit me.
mircea_popescu: lol wunderwaffle should totally be a thing.
assbot: Lessons from the Argentine | Casey Research
mircea_popescu: jesus everyone's been busy on a friday night! how am i to have a lyf with you peoples!
mircea_popescu: chetty are these the shills for that desert project selling $500k houses on land that costs $500k per square mile ?
assbot: Lurkmore
MolokoDesk: !up deedBot
mircea_popescu: dignork cool then!
mircea_popescu: gatling tank!
kakobrekla: dicktank
MolokoDesk: checking to see if deedBot meets the "it has to work" criterion.
mircea_popescu: dignork "Где Кошевой?! Пионэpы вундеpваффе пpитащили!" < ?
mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk got the command list anywhere ? does it have funds ?
MolokoDesk: what's the wonder-wafer meme about?
MolokoDesk: nevermind, I'll do my homework on wonderwafer.
dignork: mircea_popescu: some fido period reference, i didn't have a computer then
mircea_popescu: o wow wunderwaffe mockery from ww2 ? definitely older than i thought
MolokoDesk: it has funds, ragnar put in the latest tranche, I put in the first tranche. a few bucks.
MolokoDesk: .balance
deedBot: deedBot BTC available balance: 0.00129000 in wallet 1NTSD9jVvumurTotaW7Crqe5DfRxBrJzqu
MolokoDesk: or uh milliBTC.
MolokoDesk: waffe. ah.
mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk ok, and what are the commands ?
MolokoDesk: just .deed pastebin-link
MolokoDesk: there are some diagnostics.
MolokoDesk: .dump
deedBot: time=1411828456 LAST_BUNDLE_TIME=1411826420 elapsed=2036
deedBot: DEEDBOT_CHAN=#bitcoin-assets ERROR_CHAN=MolokoDesk INTERVAL=3600
mircea_popescu: and .balance apparently ?
kakobrekla: <mircea_popescu> o wow wunderwaffe mockery from ww2 ? definitely older than i thought < yes, germans DO have the best scripts in porn.
MolokoDesk: that will probably go away .dump it switches the channel to the primary notification channel.
MolokoDesk: yeah.
MolokoDesk: there are some temporary commands to make it join the channel, but I'll set #bitcoin-assets as the primary channel and that will never be needed.
MolokoDesk: invite works too, but I may shut that off to prevent botjacking.
chetty: mircea_popescu, not sure about their land stuff, some little I saw did look a bit Gaults Gulchy but guy does make some decent observations about Argentina in general
deedBot: KeyID: 8A736F0E2FB7B452 deed with 1 signatory.
deedBot: deed keyID: 8A736F0E2FB7B452 trust: 27 nick: mircea_popescu (valid and scheduled for next bundle)
MolokoDesk: it's still mildly verbose.
MolokoDesk: .dump
deedBot: time=1411828577 LAST_BUNDLE_TIME=1411826420 elapsed=2157
deedBot: DEEDBOT_CHAN=#bitcoin-assets ERROR_CHAN=MolokoDesk INTERVAL=3600
mircea_popescu: someone else pls put a something signed in
mircea_popescu: quickly!
MolokoDesk: when elapsed>= interval it bundles and spends and tracks to blockchain.
MolokoDesk: the filename uses block height since blockID seems arbitary and duplicated.
MolokoDesk: most/all blockchain tools on the web use block height
mircea_popescu: problem is you don't know the block height when you save the file, do you ?
MolokoDesk: no the file is saved named BUNDLE_UNSPENT-1BITCOINADDRESS.txt
MolokoDesk: when it's time to spend which is usuallly the next 60 seconds it changes the name to BUNDLE_PENDING...
MolokoDesk: and when the blockheight confirm comes in it's changed to 34234-1BITCOINADDRESS.txt and published to a web-accessible directory
MolokoDesk: and announced.
mircea_popescu: and if there's a block reorg ?
mircea_popescu: no good.
mircea_popescu: that's why i wanted the txid. txids are fixed per tx
MolokoDesk: ok. we need a definition of what the absolute location of a block is.
mircea_popescu: irrespective of the block they end up in
MolokoDesk: I noticed that inclusion in an orphan block would mess this up... there are often several blocks with the same blockID, at least using some tools.
mircea_popescu: it was never a question of block id, whatever that is
deedBot: KeyID: 7E1DC6F7BDD75CD6 deed with 1 signatory.
deedBot: deed keyID: 7E1DC6F7BDD75CD6 trust: nick: (seems bogus - Discarded)
MolokoDesk: searching the blockchain backwards for the first occurrence of the address would do it.
mircea_popescu: ;;gettrust assbot dignork
gribble: Currently authenticated from hostmask dignork!~dignork@gateway/tor-sasl/dignork. Trust relationship from user assbot to user dignork: Level 1: 1, Level 2: 4 via 4 connections. Graph: | WoT data: | Rated since: Fri Oct 18 12:20:18 2013
mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk why did it discard ?
MolokoDesk: the blockchain tracker I'm using only flags confirmation when the block is on the main chain.
mircea_popescu: chains can and do reorg.
MolokoDesk: uh, whose keysig is that?
dignork: mircea_popescu: this key is chained, not the same key that gribble knows i suppose
mircea_popescu: dignork ah, use same pls ?
mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk i guess, but why make it fluffy ?
mircea_popescu: you get a tx id once you make the payment, that's invariant, use it.
MolokoDesk: ;;gpg info -getkey 7E1DC6F7BDD75CD6
gribble: (gpg info [--key|--address] <nick>) -- Returns the registration details of registered user <nick>. If '--key' option is given, interpret <nick> as a GPG key ID.
mircea_popescu: why depend on things outside of your control.
MolokoDesk: ;;gpg info -key 7E1DC6F7BDD75CD6
gribble: (gpg info [--key|--address] <nick>) -- Returns the registration details of registered user <nick>. If '--key' option is given, interpret <nick> as a GPG key ID.
mircea_popescu: ;;gpg info --key 7E1DC6F7BDD75CD6
gribble: No such user registered.
mircea_popescu: but he already said used different key
MolokoDesk: that's why
MolokoDesk: still wondered what deedBot actually saw
mircea_popescu: yeah. okay.
MolokoDesk: it rejects for assbot level1+level2 trust <2
mircea_popescu: that's no good.
mircea_popescu: a) l2 = 1 should be enough ; b) l1 = 1 and l2 = 0 is stil valid.
MolokoDesk: oh. it only has to be one?
mircea_popescu: make it reject for !((l1 > 0)||(l2 > 0))
MolokoDesk: maybe it's doing that. let me look at the code briefly.
MolokoDesk: if that was your spec that's what it's doing.
MolokoDesk: lemme certify this. looking.
mircea_popescu: so as to identify : << consider that. the tx is identified, whether it ends up in this block or that.
assbot: Bitcoin Transaction 26591d8fc00356374e63320f1c6b5539947300378f84ad8063ef92740823fd95
mircea_popescu: the hash in question you get from whatever agent you use to broadcast the tx
MolokoDesk: if($SIGSDONE[$DEED_KEYID]['trust']>0)
MolokoDesk: ok. it's 1
MolokoDesk: that's early code. also I was thinking assbot voice.
MolokoDesk: considered using transactionID
kakobrekla: <mircea_popescu> make it reject for !((l1 > 0)||(l2 > 0)) < l1+12 > 0 is simpler
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla you are right.
MolokoDesk: it's already summing aggregate trust.
mircea_popescu: pls sign something put it in ?
kakobrekla: also different though
kakobrekla: as one level can be negative
kakobrekla: and the fucks up the other
kakobrekla: then*
kakobrekla: so dunno
kakobrekla: i use what mp wrote iirc
MolokoDesk: oh. that's signfiicant.
mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk notrly.
mircea_popescu: the case where assbot trusts someone the broader b-a does not is quite the failure mode anyway.
mircea_popescu: we'll be having bigger problems.
mircea_popescu: so this'd count as a canary.
punkman: mircea_popescu: I posted a deed earlier,
assbot: DEEDS
MolokoDesk: are there cases where someone who should have access to deeds has a negative rating relative to assbot and assbotdirects?
mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk nope
mircea_popescu: punkman wait is this a concurrent implementation or what ?!
punkman: no that's deedbot's
mircea_popescu: o hey. spiffy
kakobrekla: whichever is goin to be it should prolly be consistent with assbot or what
deedBot: KeyID: 8334BB7B5BDFA126 deed with 1 signatory.
deedBot: deed keyID: 8334BB7B5BDFA126 trust: 5 nick: dignork (valid and scheduled for next bundle)
mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk the web interface looks splendid.
punkman: MolokoDesk: when does a deed have 2 signatories?
MolokoDesk: if a bunch of people have cryposigned it. I'm counting the signatures.
deedBot: time=1411829476 LAST_BUNDLE_TIME=1411826420 elapsed=3056
deedBot: DEEDBOT_CHAN=#bitcoin-assets ERROR_CHAN=MolokoDesk INTERVAL=3600
MolokoDesk: I had considered validating all the signatures.
MolokoDesk: it requires peeling off the ascii armor and replacing gaps in the delimiters. it's kind of tedious.
deedBot: KeyID: 27AF75321F2489E8 deed with 1 signatory.
deedBot: deed keyID: 27AF75321F2489E8 trust: 18 nick: kakobrekla (valid and scheduled for next bundle)
kakobrekla: can you make it also work with dpaste
dignork: so if anybody has to deal with multiple subkeys, proper syntax is "gpg -u 8334BB7B5BDFA126! --clearsign file" , notice the key>!< notation, seems to be not so documented
mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk maybe with a later upgrade. atm not useful or wanted.
mircea_popescu: dignork ppl on mpex ocasionally have this issue. the other approach is to mark a key as default.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla im sure it takes any url ?
punkman: it doesn't
mircea_popescu: why not ?
MolokoDesk: it's only pastebin right now. I can loosten that contraint.
mircea_popescu: any url works.
MolokoDesk: or I can spell loosen correctly.
mircea_popescu: this is only intended to be used from here, by voiced people.
mircea_popescu: so not really all that exposed to random spam
MolokoDesk: people will have to use raw= for pastebin then.
deedBot: KeyID: 27AF75321F2489E8 deed with 1 signatory.
deedBot: deed keyID: 27AF75321F2489E8 trust: 18 nick: kakobrekla (valid and scheduled for next bundle)
MolokoDesk: it's parsing out the token in non-raw pastebin references.
kakobrekla: so much for random spam!
MolokoDesk: .dump
deedBot: time=1411829714 LAST_BUNDLE_TIME=1411826420 elapsed=3294
deedBot: DEEDBOT_CHAN=#bitcoin-assets ERROR_CHAN=MolokoDesk INTERVAL=3600
MolokoDesk: dpaste is doable. any URL is doable.
mircea_popescu: coolness.
MolokoDesk: I'll make it indiscriminate and see how that goes.
kakobrekla: a little discrimination never hurt anybody
MolokoDesk: there maybe ram limits to filesize. a 1 gig file can overflow the php address space.
mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk : can all the data published on webpage be bundled say daily into a tar and linked somewhere for dld ?
MolokoDesk: oh wait, I'm not doing it that way.
MolokoDesk: file goes to gpg
MolokoDesk: oh yes I am. I have to hash the file to make the bitcoin address.
MolokoDesk: so it has to fit in memory.
mircea_popescu: don't put anything of unknown size into gpg.
MolokoDesk: heh. buffer overflow attack?
mircea_popescu: a hardcoded 64kb limit should be fine btw.
mircea_popescu: this is intended for human readable input, not dumping of indiscriminate data.
mircea_popescu: if people have mbs to do, let them do a cert and insert the cert.
mircea_popescu: actually, not just fine. it's a requirement post facto. MolokoDesk discard anything in the url past the 64kb.
MolokoDesk: truncate, or reject?
mircea_popescu: truncate.
MolokoDesk: head -c64000 file.ext
assbot: Eulora may have a release when the goalposts stop moving! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNAT -
deedBot: No signed deeds were found in:
assbot: Eulora may have a release when the goalposts stop moving! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNAT -
mircea_popescu: i have been derping for long enough about how reform in the modern state shoudl consist of a fixed number of characters for all laws, and if you want a new one must erase an old one.
MolokoDesk: there may be other ways to do that... wget, whatever.
mircea_popescu: time to put that idea to work. the largest last will&testament you can have is 10k words. figure it out.
deedBot: BTC SPENT: amount_withdrawn = 0.00011000 TRACKING: BUNDLE_PENDING-17nXdzdWdrLP5nqMJxJGC7ANqWQkqL2G5N.txt
MolokoDesk: .balance
deedBot: deedBot BTC available balance: 0.00118000 in wallet 1NTSD9jVvumurTotaW7Crqe5DfRxBrJzqu
deedBot: deedBot unconfirmed sent: -0.00011000
MolokoDesk: .dump
deedBot: time=1411830050 LAST_BUNDLE_TIME=1411830029 elapsed=21
deedBot: TRACKING: BUNDLE_PENDING-17nXdzdWdrLP5nqMJxJGC7ANqWQkqL2G5N.txt = (address = 17nXdzdWdrLP5nqMJxJGC7ANqWQkqL2G5N) (mtime = 1411830022) (ctime = 1411830029)
deedBot: DEEDBOT_CHAN=#bitcoin-assets ERROR_CHAN=MolokoDesk INTERVAL=3600
deedBot: rename(,): No such file or directory deedBot.php LINE 1634 Sat 2014-Sep-27 14:59:57 UTC (3 errors)
mircea_popescu: chetty need the raw
MolokoDesk: it should have gotten the raw from the unraw pastebin link. there's a special for that.
mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk useful, good idea.
punkman: it didn't like the text before the sig
MolokoDesk: there's no -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED DOCUMENT---- header on that.
mircea_popescu: punkman so you two been working together on this or what ?
MolokoDesk: it ignores pure signatures
dignork: !up deedBot
punkman: mircea_popescu: nope
mircea_popescu: chetty yeah seems you missed the header.
mircea_popescu: punkman oh the logs. nm me :)
punkman: but I'll write a verifier for the deeds
mircea_popescu: what's a verifier do ?
deedBot: KeyID: BD7C5558DD9EFA14 deed with 1 signatory.
deedBot: deed keyID: BD7C5558DD9EFA14 trust: 5 nick: chetty (valid and scheduled for next bundle)
punkman: mircea_popescu: it drinks from the faucet :P
chetty: I learn slow, but I learn
mircea_popescu: knock yourself out :)
MolokoDesk: it makes sure I'm really computing the hash address properly. If I verify that myself, and I'm making a mistake, I'll just be making the same mistake in the verifier.
punkman: also, to make sure this is verifiable
mircea_popescu: good idea pman
punkman: ;;tslb
gribble: Time since last block: 2 minutes and 11 seconds
punkman: ;;balance 17nXdzdWdrLP5nqMJxJGC7ANqWQkqL2G5N
gribble: 0.0001
MolokoDesk: !up deedBot
MolokoDesk: interesting.
kakobrekla: .deed { :; }; echo 'ble'
MolokoDesk: there can be issues if gribble dies in the middle of a transaction
MolokoDesk: the gribble dialog is the gnarliest part.
mircea_popescu: mark it as unchecked and redo later ?
MolokoDesk: I'll look to see what's in the queue
gribble: Time since last block: 5 minutes and 43 seconds
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: prayer mill ? << shit boys, there you go revealing supersecret eulora later game content ;/
MolokoDesk: I'm retaining the microsecond timestamps of gribble requests and their fulfillment so... I can implement a timeout reset if gribble dies.
MolokoDesk: ohhh.
MolokoDesk: gribble bans anyone for 5 minutes if they make more than 12 requests in a 60 second interval. that probably happened while deedBot wasn't voice.
mircea_popescu: can you practically limit work to that volume ?
MolokoDesk: there's no appeal against that. I'll have to pace requests by any of various methods.
mircea_popescu: i can appeal it but i'd rather not if it's not absolutely necessary.
MolokoDesk: an incoming URL queue is the most reasonable.
kakobrekla: this has turned into brain surgery
mircea_popescu: in general the 60 minutes of a block would currently take a maximum of 720 deeds at that rate. unless we're actually processing 500...
MolokoDesk: yeah, I wasn't going to suggest any mods to gribble even if nanotube would do them because everyone else's stuff would stop working.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla some people like to work, unlike slovens :D
MolokoDesk: for example, the information about which KEYID or NICK you're asking about disappears if it's not found in WoT. Gribble just says not found there.
mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk can always jus get an exception ; always a great idea to only ask for exceptions when you need them
MolokoDesk: so I already have to pace and sequence the request to gribble.
punkman: MolokoDesk: why wasn't 17nXdzdWdrLP5nqMJxJGC7ANqWQkqL2G5N published?
MolokoDesk: ok. if gribble can grant deedBot unlimited requests thats the solution.
MolokoDesk: it hasn't appeared on the main blockchain yet.
MolokoDesk: .dump
deedBot: time=1411830877 LAST_BUNDLE_TIME=1411830029 elapsed=848
deedBot: TRACKING: BUNDLE_PENDING-17nXdzdWdrLP5nqMJxJGC7ANqWQkqL2G5N.txt = (address = 17nXdzdWdrLP5nqMJxJGC7ANqWQkqL2G5N) (mtime = 1411830022) (ctime = 1411830029)
deedBot: DEEDBOT_CHAN=#bitcoin-assets ERROR_CHAN=MolokoDesk INTERVAL=3600
deedBot: rename(,): No such file or directory deedBot.php LINE 1634 Sat 2014-Sep-27 15:02:16 UTC (6 errors)
punkman: says 2 confirms
MolokoDesk: unlink()
MolokoDesk: interesting.
mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk ok. if gribble can grant deedBot unlimited requests thats the solution. << that's not the solution yet. it wil be the solution once we process a lot of volume. atm the soluition is to queue.
punkman: if there's a lot of volume, best to keep local copy of OTC database
MolokoDesk: queue is more robust against various other collision events. I intend to queue incomings.
MolokoDesk: nobody would run an exchange without queueing orders. you'd lose orders.
MolokoDesk: messing about with the WoT RatingsSystem.db earlier, punkman.
punkman: I suspected "smooth" as the most common adjective in ratings
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 718 @ 0.00074943 = 0.5381 BTC [-]
MolokoDesk: deedBot is sniffing the top block once 60 seconds. if a freakishly fast block mining event happens back to back it could miss the inclusion in the block.
mircea_popescu: so if anyone knows anything about growing cactuses, get back to me. i got a tiny something, which i believe is armatocereus godingianus. he seems happy enough and is growing, but the shoots are all spindly. ie, the base like 6 strands each an inch thick, each shot this inch long, 1/8th of an inch wide things.
MolokoDesk: I may have to track back to detect block inclusion in that case.
mircea_popescu: is this how it grows ? is it upset with the light ?
mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk these freakishly fast blocks happen a lot actually.
mircea_popescu: can it sniff the top 6 blocks ?
bounce: what about gloves?
MolokoDesk: etiolation due to low light. also cactus seedlings have cotyledons like most other dicots.
punkman: start sniff from last deed block
mircea_popescu: ^ punkman has it
MolokoDesk: block mining collisions, yeah.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 150 @ 0.15508879 = 23.2633 BTC [+] {16}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 22 @ 0.15877999 = 3.4932 BTC [+] {2}
MolokoDesk: sure. I was considering looking for block height increments of more than 1 and then scanning back. alternatively, scan backwards to the first block with a date before the incoming file creation date.
MolokoDesk: scanning back would allow the tracking interval to be longer than a minute or 5
MolokoDesk: .time Texas
MolokoDesk: ok. I need to tighten a few things up in deedBot. It's possible that's going to run into October.
MolokoDesk: just a heads up.
MolokoDesk: I think starting from last deed bot would load things down some, doable, but deeds may only be coming in every 6 hours.
mircea_popescu: well hurry up!
MolokoDesk: srsly
MolokoDesk: well, unless we can break it some more today... I can get on this. I've been up rather a while today.
MolokoDesk: any mid-course corrections other than so far?
mircea_popescu: the txid instead of block height ; the queing of gribble requests
mircea_popescu: that seems all realy.
MolokoDesk: !up deedBot
MolokoDesk: oh, are you going to register deedBot with WoT or should I do that or, leave it indeterminate. I can export the keys and give you a copy.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 218 @ 0.00446292 = 0.9729 BTC [+] {10}
MolokoDesk: the risk now is that someone will nab the name.
mircea_popescu: is it nickserv reg'd ?
MolokoDesk: yes. oh sure. can't WoT without auth
MolokoDesk: ok. no rush.
mircea_popescu: so it can sit.
dignork: MolokoDesk: somewhat of a hack, but electrum has getaddressbalance function, which returns balance for any address (unlike bitcoind)
mircea_popescu: dignork it also happens to be the correct way to handle this. the "wallet" nonsense still boggles my mind.
MolokoDesk: electrum is the gold standard for this sort of thing (pun intended) but that's a serious dev/admin/maintenance thing on this end. If I had electrum RPC already at the start of this I may have done it that way. it's still on the desirable things to do list.
MolokoDesk: the less reliance on 3rd party APIs the better in most cases.
MolokoDesk: I have fallback capability in the bot but it's not active. I can track with two different website APIs. there's only one wallet, but more can be added.
mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk nah i don't think it's all that desirable. ideally no dependencies etc.
MolokoDesk: it makes it hard to move if it has to co-reside with electrum.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 108 @ 0.00501896 = 0.542 BTC [+] {9}
MolokoDesk: also I'd be setting up binary buffers and cryptosigning them and all that. it's a chore.
MolokoDesk sounding like a bitcoin dev wuss.
MolokoDesk: ok. I'm out for the day.
dignork: MolokoDesk: you need a local copy of electrum wallet without QT mess, it's a plain python
dignork: alternatively, just hack out the part talking to electrum servers, few pages of python code
assbot: DEEDS
mircea_popescu: such a teasing!
MolokoDesk: moving this to python was an intention eventually, that make electrum seem more sensible.
MolokoDesk: yeah, there's a pending item stuck in the queue because it missed (probably) it's block.
mircea_popescu: "Каждая вундервафля выглядит так, что Юнг и Фрейд, обнявшись, заплакали бы от радости." lol not bad
mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk aite see you tomorrow
dignork: mircea_popescu: on a concept level lurkmore is a copy of encyclopedia dramatica, but they do much better job imho
mircea_popescu: ahahaah epic. "every fifth opponent was a cross between a tank with a watchtower and every previous boss"
mircea_popescu: now i gotta play this thing
mircea_popescu: "If the country can continue operating as smoothly as it does for another year, I'll be surprised." << you can tell casey research his bet is on.
mircea_popescu: fucktards these people.
mircea_popescu: why am i even reading this crap, jpg "signatures" and no comment section for crying out loud.
ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> what is rms holding in the photo? << toe jam?
mircea_popescu: ;;later tell MolokoDesk anyway, the ideal here is to have everything in order to i can put the various sept reports on it.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: as far as anyone can tell - equal to 'c' <<< the idea being that "the speed of light" is not "of light" in any sense other than the champagne is champagne
mircea_popescu: "that's where the limit on interaction debit first became apparent"
mircea_popescu: turns out the universe itself works on a queue
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] [PAID] 1.09651464 BTC to 15`116 shares, 7254 satoshi per share
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: lol that turd reads like it was a 'mad libs' product << three steps to take to avoid making any sort of meaningful change : a) stick to obama & the libertard's mickey mouse version of "change" ; b) pretend like disaster is unlikely and so the possibility can be safely ignored while it's not happened yet ; pretend it's "overwhelming" as so best ignored as it happens and shortly thereafter ; c) make sure y
mircea_popescu: ou don't read trilema or any other venue where people who know more than you are likely to call you and your friends idiots.
deedBot: BTC SPENT: amount_withdrawn = 0.00011000 TRACKING: BUNDLE_PENDING-16kWvtsQukxKp8nKY8hSUgca9nm96cFqUC.txt
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] [PAID] 2.94396928 BTC to 1`149`988 shares, 256 satoshi per share
mircea_popescu: o hay deedsy.
mircea_popescu: !up deedBot
asciilifeform: !s lurkmore
asciilifeform: ^ that thing of beauty - was discussed here in the past...
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i am notorious for taking more than one pass through the material to grok it, more than one set of lips on the tool to spill it etc.
mircea_popescu: i'm a multifarian.
mircea_popescu: anyway, ru version of ed reads like mostly adult male, as opposed to mostly preteen female.
asciilifeform: good eyes - accurate.
asciilifeform: before even i forget - kakobrekla, mircea_popescu - where's my lenat turd mirror ?
mircea_popescu: i have that queasy feeling i musta missed something
assbot: Logged on 26-09-2014 00:53:22; mircea_popescu: email ill put on trilema
assbot: Logged on 26-09-2014 01:50:54; asciilifeform:
mircea_popescu: oh! damned.
mircea_popescu: i was like "let others hit it first ill go later to not herdkil the server"
mircea_popescu: then promptly forgot.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3597 @ 0.00074835 = 2.6918 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the how & why of the whole thing:
assbot: Logged on 26-09-2014 03:11:57; asciilifeform: there are two versions of the lenat story
mircea_popescu: no i know that part
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1253 @ 0.00074785 = 0.9371 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: (given that i don't have a proper rant written yet to go with it, above will have to do for now)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21957 @ 0.0007478 = 16.4194 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3226 @ 0.00074732 = 2.4109 BTC [-]
ben_vulpes: <MolokoDesk> i may use SQLite instead of mySQL eventuall. << try postgres if ye've yet to. nicely done db.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 300 @ 0.01494324 = 4.483 BTC [-]
gribble: What do you think I am, a shell?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8000 @ 0.00074725 = 5.978 BTC [-]
thestringpuller: i cant get sql lite data into postgresql
ben_vulpes: thats why start with pg
ben_vulpes: !up daybyter
daybyter: Thanks!
daybyter: I use HyperSQL...
assbot: Index of /
mircea_popescu: "the Russians are from three to five years ahead of the US in the field of atomic aircraft engines and they will move even further ahead unless the US pressed forward with its own program"
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: neat. but i was hoping for individual turdlets that i could link to.
mircea_popescu: from aviation weekly, 1958
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: laugh, but the recently released 'glomar explorer' howard hughes ru. submarine plunder reports...
asciilifeform: stated that u.s. engineers pissed pants at some of the integrated circuitry found therein
asciilifeform: most of the 'why' pissed - censored
asciilifeform: but the fact thereof - not.
kakobrekla: asciilifeform try now
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: neat. thx
kakobrekla: i plan to put some stuff there myself, such as log dump etc
kakobrekla: would you like to have your own folder
assbot: Bitcoin Block Explorer -
mircea_popescu: decimation: what I find inexplicable is that you find folks in the us who absolutely hate everything about usg policies, in terms of how it mismanages wealth, fails to jail criminals, etc, and yet are willing to serve the military side <<< similarly, the wild animals that hate everything about the government will still traipse around on "government property"
mircea_popescu: in spite of there being numerous posters in full view saying "by traipsing around here you agree to blablabla"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the u.s. army installation i once worked in had the biggest, fattest herds of deer i've ever seen in person...
mircea_popescu: military service of some sort or another is a required stage in male maturation.
mircea_popescu: who claims to own it... whatever, im sure the fish acting as host for whatever parasite's obligate fish phase are "owned" by someone, at least according to them.
mircea_popescu: ownership is a convention, meaningless outside the convenants.
mircea_popescu: decimation: usg is the unintentional beneficiary of a great deal of "I want to make a difference" altruism << so no, it's not altruism. unrelated to that, there's a lot of "usg is the only obvious recipient for a bunch of faking of the <i want to not have sex but for everyone in school to think i do> sort."
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is also, in a fairly large geographic zone, the only readily-accessible sponsor of many activities a thinking man (or 'man of action') would like to take up.
mircea_popescu: quite my point.
mircea_popescu: you gotta kill some people. avenue A is like so, avenue B is like so... hmm... well ok, let's go with B
asciilifeform: there are other sponsors - but most of them require an 'in.' (ethnic, familial, whatever kind of 'in'). only one sponsor has press-gangs on the streets, taking all-comers.
mircea_popescu: because it's obviously not military SERVICE. it's MILITARY service. killing people.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform actually two. the mob is still there.
asciilifeform: this applies not only to the killing arts, but even something like - chemistry.
chetty: last I heard military in ussa wasnt aking all comers
mircea_popescu: chetty was this before or after they started paying terrorists for the safe return of deserters ?
chetty: well when did that start? or do you mean when it got to be public and all
asciilifeform: chetty: i was speaking more generally of employment with usg rather than proper soldiering as such
chetty: ah yes, different matter asciilifeform
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: then squadron with stone megacock can feel victorious, vindicated. << methinks this view is a little too convenient.
mircea_popescu: seriously, lisp tripped on banana peel ?
mircea_popescu: nobody could have foreseen ?
asciilifeform: though, i've been told that even actual enlistment is now open to folks of fairly advanced age and shoddy physical condition, with the proviso that you will 'fly a desk'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it was easy to foresee. but what alternative, when you gotta have the wealthy prince?
asciilifeform: even if wealthy prince has an advanced crack habit
asciilifeform: it's him - or starve
mircea_popescu: these aren't the same strength.
mircea_popescu: rms's tortured existence is proof as to their uneven strength : neglecting the "gotta" works better than baking it in.
mircea_popescu: in general, not doing something stupid "you got to do" is better on the long term than doing it.
mircea_popescu: and if your project is long term... well there you go.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: notice that rms will not speak of lisp to this day. the demise of lmi cut him off from the genuine machines (there was no possibility of baking one by his lonesome, or with his band of ragged dervishes, any more than they could launch a mars mission)
asciilifeform: all he had left was his embarrassing 'emacs lisp' erzats.
mircea_popescu: but unlike the other fucktards involved, he didn't go away into the night, and his efforts are at the root of why we even pose a problem to the usg today in the first place.
asciilifeform: as far as i can tell, rms was defeated in his original life. and ended up performing almost the equivalent of a seppuku - had to retool and rescue some very small thing that could be salvaged, and turned it into another life.
mircea_popescu: not in any sense.
mircea_popescu: he just woke up to the concept of "never do something stupid, no matter how much you "gotta" "
mircea_popescu: this is a major cause of the foss taking so very long to be killed.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: if you had a truly clean break with the age of turdware - there would be a market for about six machines. << this is diletante business analysis. you really only need one, provided it works. look into the early history of ford cars.
mircea_popescu: ford ignored a patent.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26900 @ 0.00074718 = 20.0991 BTC [-] {3}
mircea_popescu: decimation: it is because of the dynamic range allowed in a single blob <<< this is nonsense. the "range" is not intrinsic to the blob. the blob will only hold as much as it physicall can. what its concents mean to you, is entirely up to you
mircea_popescu: to tell me that range is included in the item is nonsense of the first degree.
asciilifeform: ford was able to capitalize, somehow, because ultimately any idiot can appreciate a car.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform do something useful. hence "if it works".
mircea_popescu: forget "hearts and minds", that's the telltale preoccupation of a dying empire. concern yourself with the ground under their very feet and let them figure it out.
mircea_popescu: they'll go on to reddit to discuss how X Y and Z are betting websites for as long as they can still find coins in mom's cushions to pay for the pizza.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ahahaha, yeah, that'll buy me a silicon fab and decade of paid free time, sure.
mircea_popescu: right, because that's what ford did o.o
asciilifeform: picture if ford wanted moon lander instead
mircea_popescu: you figure it's specifically the item in question ?
mircea_popescu: the only relevant change there is that the car is history and the moon lander is not.
asciilifeform: the type of item.
mircea_popescu: obviously i can appreciate your position : for all the banality of sex, it's still a big deal to the virgin.
asciilifeform: mass appeal - marketable. requires 500-year time horizon - less so.
mircea_popescu: but let's stick to history. car or parabolic mirror to put ships on fire
mircea_popescu: or washing your hands before delivering a woman
mircea_popescu: not random examples. car : used individually, useful if used by a lot ; parabolic mirrors : used globally, useful if used at all. washing hands : used individually, useful if used at all.
asciilifeform: also matters what kind of process is necessary to bring the item.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11400 @ 0.00075064 = 8.5573 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: no, because it is always going to be the same : industry.
mircea_popescu: homo artifex.
asciilifeform: except the item in question cannot be produced by industry. it's a craftsmanship item.
asciilifeform: like samurai sword.
asciilifeform: at least, ser. no #1.
chetty: You think farnsworth had a clue what TV would become? or cared?
asciilifeform: chetty: farnsworth didn't need a decade of free time. raster scan, fortunately, was a fairly simple item.
asciilifeform: (despite this, he became the poster child of 'inventor starves, sponsor wins')
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform industry as thje human activity.
mircea_popescu: also, focus on the simple items.
mircea_popescu: forget the meta game
chetty: was it? from his point of view, at the time? I have trouble trying to imagine some of the early stabs at tech
mircea_popescu: problem of mod\ernity is everyone trying to meta the shit out of their lif
asciilifeform (not directly related) answered door and tool delivery of a nice japanese test dial, << with hidden pin-up.
assbot: wtf - Imgur
punkman: asciilifeform: what's the difference of the non-test variety?
asciilifeform: *dial gauge
asciilifeform: or rather, in an arc.
asciilifeform: and, normally, considerably more sensitive
asciilifeform: (it is virtually impossible to touch with finger and make less than full circle on readout)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i must disagree exactly '180 degrees' about rms. he in fact did do a 'gotta' species of forced mistake. specifically, chose to accept eternal unix-clone retardation as gospel, because no alternative (in his mind, at the time)
asciilifeform: forced, because it (or something entirely like it) is the only way to build a software ecosystem on scrapyard hardware.
asciilifeform: but there is no phase space transition from cuban scrapyard cars to mazerati.
asciilifeform: incidentally!
asciilifeform: this mirrors the (almost-contemporary!) soviet mistake
asciilifeform: of choosing to abandon all own research & clone u.s. hardware (to run u.s. warez eternally)
assbot: One (M8) comes last, Note 3 first in Consumer Reports bend test
chetty: speaking of scrapyards of hardware ...
asciilifeform: chetty: smear job, just like 'antennaegate'
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 39 @ 0.01494324 = 0.5828 BTC [-] {3}
asciilifeform: << guess: the bugger went there, destroyed it.
assbot: extropians: EURISKO article obtained
ben_vulpes: chetty: looks like an actual bend test, with fixtures and all
asciilifeform: how many popular, costly portable objects would pass this test?
asciilifeform: e.g. 'glock' pistol?
asciilifeform: 'doctor, it hurts when i do that.' - 'don't do that.'
ben_vulpes: it's pathetic the things can't even open a beer.
ben_vulpes: that* the things
asciilifeform: nails, microscopes
kakobrekla: you might not hammer a nail with your microscope but i do it with my phone.
ben_vulpes: hm, probably want to look at bending moments and beam constraints too.
kakobrekla: i also got the insides, but thats the point.
kakobrekla: (first day i had it, it flew about 3m vertically on a concrete floor)
asciilifeform: 'certain aspects of the NVIDIA graphics processor chip will only be available to... ...firmware images that have been signed by NVIDIA.'
assbot: [Phoronix] NVIDIA Alerts Nouveau: They're Starting To Sign/Validate GPU Firmware Images
kakobrekla: trading stream from exchanges will be down for a short while.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform perhaps.
mircea_popescu: <pete_dushenski> asciilifeform: is this buono or male? <<< suppose your roommate goes "certain aspects of the appartment are only available with my permission".
mircea_popescu: are you still room ~mates~ ?
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: hm quite. i guess i misunderstood what "signed by nvidia" meant.
pete_dushenski: it's not "verified excellent" as much as "for british eyes only"
mircea_popescu: it means exactly what signatures ever meant : nvidia wants to be sovereign on its own [inasmuch as it produces them] chips
mircea_popescu: you probably want to be sovereign on your own [inasmuch as you bought them] chips
mircea_popescu: you both can't be sovereign, so you got yourselves a problem now.
mircea_popescu: decimation: apparently sabu of anonymous was living in a usg welfare apartment << the great "we infiltrated them for once" success story ? myeahg.
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: the turdware spreadeth across the land
mircea_popescu: !up JimDowJo2es
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: a professional scammer not scamming usg also, would be like a pro mechanic who won't fix own car << these words.
pete_dushenski: to evenly distributed like rising floodwaters
pete_dushenski: until someone makes an ark!
pete_dushenski: i nominate mp for noah.
mircea_popescu: decimation: I don't get the jews. why do they care about jews? They are just a small subset of europeans among the unwashed masses of europeans <<< you should learn yidish to see the things some jews think about some other jews.
pete_dushenski wonders why his mind so readily leans towards old testament references…
mircea_popescu: it's quite amusing, and will put the entire "secret cabal" thing into such perspective...
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski sign of getting old perhaps ?
mircea_popescu: !up unbalanced
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: lol bring on the wisdom of the ages!
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: yiddish is full of adjectives that describe people, far more than of those that describe things
pete_dushenski: why? because there weren't many things
pete_dushenski: it was a rather critical tongue
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: we could start with his idea of 'young and old men ought to live in separate countries.' << they do, mostly.
mircea_popescu: women being the border.
bounce: so, a people of scolds, then
pete_dushenski: hm. is bringing up "flush dns" error
mircea_popescu: bounce: but the takeaway ought to be that you (ie, those in power) are rigging the system then blaming the victims for having let the system end up being rigged against them. <<< this is exactly right. how else would anything work ?
mircea_popescu: dude reading this moriarty fellow interact with xmj is like watching a drunk clown trying to ride a cow with k-j, except the clown is really a cow in clown costume and the cow really a clown in cow costume and again adn again.
bounce: the card racket's profits do mean it's not going to be replaced. also the convenient fobbing off of risks to everyone else. (chargebacks to the merchants, privacy problems to the "consumer")
mircea_popescu: but hey, props for trolling bounce into a frenzy, i never saw him talk this much b4
mircea_popescu: bounce well, they won't go anywhere for as long as the system that spawned them lasts.
mircea_popescu: this is for sure. they're a part of it, like the hair styles of the late empire are part of the late empire.
mircea_popescu: but that doesn't make them anything other than styles.
mircea_popescu: ;;rate xmj -1 Derp just won't shut up.
gribble: Rating entry successful. Your rating of -1 for user xmj has been recorded.
xmj: ohh, lovely
xmj: some fucktard I ignore and haven't dealt with gave me a -1 rating
bounce: hmno, I don't think rigging the system is a good long-term strategy. it shouldn't be necessary, and if you think it is, you're venturing into empire territory.
mircea_popescu: rigging the system is pretty much the only strategy. give an example of something else at work.
xmj: bounce: which lovely person rated me negatively? :)
mircea_popescu: airlift is achieved through "rigging the system" of dynamic equilibrium
mircea_popescu: the carnot cycle is rigging the system of thermodynamics
bounce: uhm. I think you misread the context of the comment then.
mircea_popescu: possibly. what'd i miss ?
bounce: at the end of the complaint would be something much akin to your "bring back pecunia non olet" argument
mircea_popescu: but that can't work in the current system.
mircea_popescu: and if the system is uprooted, you really think something like its coiffure fashions a la mastercard would somehow survive ? how.
bounce: oh I don't mind them going the way of the dodo. the thing was rather moriarty was rationalising their existence as "best possible (evar)", which I disagreed with
mircea_popescu: well sure. lots that guy stil needs to read.
asciilifeform: ;;rate xmj -1 habitually pulls down #bitcoin-assets SNR.
gribble: Rating entry successful. Your rating of -1 for user xmj has been recorded.
mircea_popescu: !down xmj
mircea_popescu: hallelujah.
assbot: Yiddish Phrases
ben_vulpes: ;;gettrust assbot ben_vulpes
gribble: Currently authenticated from hostmask ben_vulpes!~user@unaffiliated/benkay. Trust relationship from user assbot to user ben_vulpes: Level 1: 1, Level 2: 12 via 12 connections. Graph: | WoT data: | Rated since: Sun Mar 10 13:57:45 2013
assbot: Index of /wp-content/uploads/2014/09/lenat-leaks
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: neato. now one of these days i actually write the turdifesto to go with these.
asciilifeform: as for herr lenat himself - looks like he's finally settled into island fortress, or the like:
assbot: dblp: Douglas B. Lenat
pete_dushenski: looks like asciilifeform
asciilifeform: though this '08 piece is somewhat interesting -
assbot: The Voice of the Turtle: Whatever Happened to AI? | Lenat | AI Magazine
pete_dushenski: looks like asciilifeform's вредителями has a yiddish equivalent: nudnik
pete_dushenski: for those who prefer latin characters
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: nah, that's just 'annoying bugger'
mircea_popescu: nudnik is pest not wrecker
asciilifeform: (russian loan word)
assbot: Heartstrings. Music of the Holocaust
mircea_popescu: o nm, wrong russian :)
mircea_popescu: вредительство, вредителями, what the hell's the difference.
pete_dushenski: perhaps shtunk
asciilifeform: ^ 'wreckery', 'by way of the wreckers'
asciilifeform: ^ declansions
asciilifeform: *declensions
mircea_popescu: point remains. pest (annoyance) != pest (plague bearer)
asciilifeform: 'wrecker' isn't even an exact translation. originally, 'pest', really, as in agricultural - or the rats and mice in kitchen
mircea_popescu: the small thing that brings doom
asciilifeform: english somehow wrapped many words into single box, in many cases. orwell even laments this in one essay
asciilifeform: 'bug' for all insects, 'bird' in general usage for all birds
asciilifeform: this was less of a thing in 19th c. and prior educated english text, and he noticed the changeover
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if you gonna pretend like the peasants are people, you're stuck pretending language as they speak it is language, and that fifty words should be enough for everyone
mircea_popescu: and other things
asciilifeform: hence then 'pest' for both flea and plague rat.
asciilifeform: this, yes.
assbot: ./jordanr1000 helped set up a fake computer to entice hackers. This is who showed up:
bounce: bit of a difference between "rigging something up" (building something, say making good use of known principles such as laws of nature) and "rigging the system" (which recurses, say, playing the SEC)
assbot: The namedropper tries to have prominent friends; the righteous will have prominent enemies.
pete_dushenski: the different between information theory and epistemology? some mathematical rigour here and there.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18076 @ 0.00075112 = 13.5772 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2587 @ 0.00056039 = 1.4497 BTC [-] {21}
bounce: that doesn't feel quite right
jurov: <pete_dushenski> << is this troll or yiddish is really so close to german?
assbot: Yiddish Phrases
pete_dushenski: jurov: no trolmo
pete_dushenski: yiddish is a cross between hebrew and german
pete_dushenski: sounds like hebrew but with german alphabet
jurov: GAY SHLAFEN lmao
assbot: iPAD-FONDLING fanboi sparks SECURITY ALERT at Sydney airport The Register
bounce: guy wasn't looking where he walked and so walked right by the security checkpoints. obvious answer? evacuate the whole airport.
mircea_popescu: jurov no it's reallyclose to german
mircea_popescu: bounce they were just looking for an excuse to derp on their own ipad
mats_cd03: i find myself wishing there was an assbot in every chan i idle in
mircea_popescu: mats_cd03 ikr?
mircea_popescu: same thing here.
guruvan: lol mats_cd03 assbot is one of my favorite bots
mats_cd03: i have felt the compulsion to reproduce its features on occasion
assbot: U.S. settlement with Navajo Nation is largest ever for a tribe - LA Times
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12650 @ 0.00074977 = 9.4846 BTC [-]
guruvan: more settlements like that likely on the way too
thestringpuller: where is my 40 acres and a god damned mule
mats_cd03: free 0day: msctf!CTsfTextStoreManager.
mats_cd03: not mine, but i'm told its unreliable.
kakobrekla: !mpif
assbot: F.MPIF Tracker estimated NAV per share: 0.00021861 B (Total: 478.05 B). Delta: -2.17 B. Last trade for F.MPIF on MPEX was at 0.00020614 BTC [-]
danielpbarron slaps assbot around a bit with a large netsplit
kakobrekla: jesus.
kakobrekla: changed the engine only to figure out brake was on.
assbot: ADutchGamer +v failed; L1: 0, L2: 0
bounce: !up ADutchGamer
bounce: !up ADutchGamer
ADutchGamer: thanks
ADutchGamer: is anyone working on the log and bash yet?
ADutchGamer: I'm trying to catch up but all they show is flush dns
ADutchGamer: as in: just htis text: 'flush dns'
bounce reloaded named and it still shows up with the same thing. possibly a SOA problem. oh well.
bounce: can stick in hosts for a temporary solution
kakobrekla: not all dns records were updated yet but i put that on anyway so it looks like its not my fault
assbot: Last 1 lines bashed and pending review. ( )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5700 @ 0.00075165 = 4.2844 BTC
ADutchGamer: So it's just a matter of waiting a few hours and then it will work?
kakobrekla: or edit hosts file
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22100 @ 0.00075113 = 16.6 BTC [-] {2}
ADutchGamer: it works now, thanks :)
bounce: until the next record change
bounce: tablet-optimised layouts, how I loathe thee
kakobrekla: doesnt change that often - this is the first time.
bounce: may want to drop ttl a bit beforehand
mircea_popescu: <kakobrekla> changed the engine only to figure out brake was on. << loller
kakobrekla: or proxy it or whatever else but its not like you guys cant take a couple of hrs off
bounce: clearly not
BingoBoingo: Basically Mpex's week+ summer vacation is the equivalent of assbot being down a few hours.
BingoBoingo: Well not assbot, but the logs, bash and other bot ass output
thestringpuller: !ticker m s.mpoe
assbot: [MPEX:S.MPOE] 1D: 0.00074715 / 0.00075076 / 0.0007539 (480877 shares, 361.03 BTC), 7D: 0.00074485 / 0.00075039 / 0.00075684 (4158000 shares, 3,120.16 BTC), 30D: 0.00059659 / 0.00076292 / 0.00086605 (15660113 shares, 11,947.42 BTC)
thestringpuller: assbot you my only friend
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16000 @ 0.00074941 = 11.9906 BTC [-] {2}
BingoBoingo: ;;rated assbot
gribble: You rated user assbot on Fri Apr 11 14:42:06 2014, with a rating of 10, and supplied these additional notes: !up Periscope.
BingoBoingo: ;;rate assbot 10 friend
gribble: Rating entry successful. Your rating for user assbot has changed from 10 to 10.
assbot: Outrage: Man's Health Insurance Is Holding His Liver Transplant Hostage | Alternet
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19000 @ 0.00074843 = 14.2202 BTC [-]
BingoBoingo: Sent out to sea on the same sort of red tape they put in front of decent people who simply disagree with them on matters of justice
mats_cd03: i'll be your friend. :)
bounce: then this is the end
mats_cd03: there's no end where we're going.
assbot: Trooper-ambush suspect spotted several times in manhunt, police say - LA Times
asciilifeform: this is the n-th desperado, of only the public ones, in kn years, for some pos. int. k.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: This shutting down an entire Geographic area is what they practiced in Boston, yes?
asciilifeform: SOP by now.
mats_cd03: i wonder if hes enjoying himself
asciilifeform: probably.
asciilifeform: although the arse grenade (if he has any brains, has one) probably chafes.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24700 @ 0.0007481 = 18.4781 BTC [-] {2}
TheNewDeal: pardon my ignorance, but logs are in reboot stage?
BingoBoingo: TheNewDeal: DNS is repropagating
BingoBoingo: kako put on his surgeon's gown today
asciilifeform: 'Frein may see the manhunt as a game, police said, and likely has supplies and a bunker hidden in the woods. Police have found soiled diapers, Serbian cigarettes and other clues that he remains in the area, but are proceeding with caution in part because they believe he may have explosives.'
asciilifeform: mega-lulzies
asciilifeform: 'Authorities said Friday that the hard drive of a computer used by Frein provides evidence he had been planning an attack for years. They said Frein's Internet searches included sites on how to avoid police manhunts.'
asciilifeform: menu: herr frein is 1) an imbecile 2) elementarily framed 3) fictional persona
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5111 @ 0.00074774 = 3.8217 BTC [-]
bounce: nice list of toys they're throwing after him
assbot: Eric Matthew Frein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
asciilifeform: after someone.
assbot: FBI — Ten Most Wanted
asciilifeform: ^ third place. nice.
BingoBoingo: "Authorities speculate that Frein, driving with his lights off on Pennsylvania Route 402, failed to see a T-junction and drove into the swamp, then may have traveled 15 to 20 miles on foot to Canadensis, Pennsylvania, where his parents live." << Lesson here
asciilifeform: lesson << ditch a car, confuse idiot bureaucrats ?
BingoBoingo: Lights might make a car visible, but crashing it because you kept them off, suspect!
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: care to hazard a guess re: the diapers?
asciilifeform: u.s. army snipers have been known to wear them, now that i recall.
bounce: didn't that stalking astronaut get caught with diapers due to long drive?
BingoBoingo: the diapers are probably a cargo cult thing, because the pros do it that way
TheNewDeal: So on bitbet, I know if you send a tx to an address for an open bet, the address is reserved for you for the entirety of the bet. But is the addr supposed to hold the btc until the bet closes, or no?
asciilifeform: that's the intended implication, at any rate.
BingoBoingo: But if you are driving a car around the backwoods under the cover of night, use the fucking headlights
asciilifeform: 'The Monroe County District Attorney's Office filed 15 search warrants since the hunt for Frein began about two weeks ago to search various buildings, but Bivens declined to comment on the warrants.'
asciilifeform: aha now some meat.
asciilifeform: 'The Monroe County District Attorney's Office filed 15 search warrants since the hunt for Frein began about two weeks ago to search various buildings, but Bivens declined to comment on the warrants. He acknowledged the substantial, and growing, cost to state and federal agencies.'
asciilifeform: anyone here ever read eric frank russell's 'wasp' ?
asciilifeform: damn broken paste
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12813 @ 0.0007472 = 9.5739 BTC [-] {2}
asciilifeform: 'Bivens estimated that the force hunting Frein has included the "high hundreds to 1,000" members of law enforcement agencies.'
BingoBoingo: For all we know Frein is just a Richard Jewell who has simply retreated to jack off in the woods for a few weeks and has no idea what is going on.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4690 @ 0.00074826 = 3.5093 BTC [+]
bounce: they're having a field day, then
bounce: I suspect an expert would gather a few good trackers and catch the guy in a week with ~30 people or so.
decimation: asciilifeform: so I tried to install gentoo in a vm last night, was disappointed that it wanted me to install systemd. apparently one should install 'minimal' and then bootstrap software stack
assbot: Eric Frein Manhunt: 'Diaper Sniper' Reportedly Phoned Parents (LIVE UPDATES)
asciilifeform: decimation: the fortress falls!
asciilifeform: decimation: although - wiki indicates is optional. did you ask for 'gnome' and forgot?
decimation: no I installed 'kde' profile
decimation: in retrospect I should have installed hardened/minimal
asciilifeform: quite a few things have been trying to suck it in under the cover of 'dependencies'
decimation: if the guy is such a brilliant woodsman why is he leaving trash for others to find?
TheNewDeal: ;;bc,stats
asciilifeform: decimation: because he's fictional.
BingoBoingo: I might have to read 'Wasp'
gribble: Current Blocks: 322863 | Current Difficulty: 3.466142592397694E10 | Next Difficulty At Block: 324575 | Next Difficulty In: 1712 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 5 days, 7 hours, 35 minutes, and 49 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 33502089229.0 | Estimated Percent Change: -3.34475
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: wasp << highly recommended.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: especially for you.
decimation: asciilifeform: yeah that appears to be the situation. I don't understand how a gui desktop 'requires' a particular init system
asciilifeform: decimation: because... and this reminds me:
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu, others who know who flondor was
BingoBoingo: decimation: systemd temps the desktop systems with login handling
asciilifeform: perhaps it is time for a lustration list.
decimation: although according to the boycottsystemd webpage, it sounds like systemd 'wants' to take over much of unix userland
asciilifeform: kept, possibly, in the deeds register
asciilifeform: of all the sniveling shilling shits who took part in hearbleed insertion, propagation of 'systemd', the like.
asciilifeform: these people are walking around, alive, and worst of all - continuing to churn out code. which unwitting chumps will actually use.
assbot: Lennart Poettering - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
decimation: pulseaudio, systemd, avahi, all turds
asciilifeform: it's time for the 'nazi playing cards'
asciilifeform: with names, faces.
asciilifeform: lennart p. isn't even a top candidate for the playing cards, because just about everyone already knows what he is.
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> although the arse grenade (if he has any brains, has one) probably chafes. << why ?
mircea_popescu: what's the most they're going to do ? pay 20k a year for his support ?
asciilifeform: the hidden little shitgnomes like author of heartbleed - they are the ones who needs the lethal sunlight rays the most.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: notice i said 'arse grenade' not 'cyanide tooth.'
bounce: you think heartbleed was intentional?
asciilifeform: specifically in light of the historic re-enactment role he's supposedly playing.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> what's the most they're going to do ? pay 20k a year for his support ? << Incarceration, especially at the federal level is rarely so inexpensive for the jailers
asciilifeform: bounce:
asciilifeform: !s miracles
decimation: asciilifeform: the next step: somehow get a unix distribution that completely excludes contributions from the lustration list
asciilifeform: decimation: yes.
kakobrekla: and then we can start pretending.
asciilifeform: bounce: i posit that it must be presumed intentional. the shitgnomes hide behind the impossibility of logically proving their guilt.
decimation: the problem is that nearly all hardware vendors would be on the list too
asciilifeform: decimation: gotta start somewhere.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12960 @ 0.0007495 = 9.7135 BTC [+]
bounce: we could use better hardware, too
asciilifeform: decimation: at the moment, proven, proud, unrepentant вредители are 'respected faces of the komyooniti', doing as they please.
bounce: but an overly large list would be counter-productive; a valid concern.
kakobrekla: nah. basically everyone should just drop their keyboards and stop coding until there exists a platform where not guilty by default (of using it)
kakobrekla: dare to continue as is, you will, sooner or later, find yourself on the list.
decimation: kakobrekla: a worthy dream, but the problem is that if everyone did that, then nobody would make such a platform
bounce didn't catch on to hiding behind lame excuses with the openssl folks, but if so that ought to be enough to get the s/w booted entirely, not just revamped.
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: if the item i am presently working on is not easily provable honest to an educated reader, then i will deserve to be placed on the list.
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: and, in fact, should be presumed dead, and the fellow walking around with my key - ought to go on list.
bounce: tangentially, shouldn't it be feasible to get decent performance out of a suitably open-and-accessible-microcode cpu running on some fpga or other these days?
asciilifeform: bounce: all the extant fpga have tightly closed architecture
decimation: yeah there's a spectrum between 'honest mistake' and 'massive fuck-up'
asciilifeform: bounce: search channel logs re: at least three separate discussions of how this came to be
kakobrekla: and heres the fourth.
bounce: you'd at least have access from the gate design on up, already a bit more than COTS CPUs give you
decimation: bounce: ultimately you are still trusting the fpga maker
asciilifeform: bounce: nope. most fpga work is carried out in units considerably larger than 'gate', from considerations of efficiency.
asciilifeform: you get a supply of adders, shifters, multipliers, etc.
decimation: they have little 'units' of logic glued together, with a little look-up table to determine how each one functions
bounce: boo. oh well. back to ttl then (
asciilifeform: the vendors (there are exactly two worth mentioning, 'xilinx' and 'altera' - the others sell miniscule turdlets, most often with zero linux toolchain support) also play fast & loose with the word 'gate'
asciilifeform: counting a shifter as 'xxx gates' worth
asciilifeform: fpga is still interesting
asciilifeform: partly because, the amount of damage a dishonest vendor can do is actually minimal
asciilifeform: as far as i can tell
asciilifeform: let's say you purchase an fpga from satan.
bounce: printable electronics getting closer, should be an interestin proof-of-concept though I wouldn't expect to even get full mipsen out of it.
bounce: s/tin/&g/
asciilifeform: bounce: 'printable' is a word you can safely place in your spam filter.
asciilifeform: it's a leper's bell for grantsmanship and chumpatronics of the most tedious sort.
asciilifeform: none of the 'printing' brouhaha places integrated circuit any closer to manufacture in your kitchen.
decimation: satan's fpga could have a bugged embedded cpu
asciilifeform: let's say it does.
asciilifeform: now what.
decimation: satan would have to know a great deal about you design
decimation: satan would give up and bug the toolchain
asciilifeform: in fact, even if satan lifts the entire netlist of your design, he will have to sweat a great deal to understand which bits to flip.
decimation: thatnisntrue
asciilifeform: if satan is merely listening to your i/o, this is a listening device in the ordinary sense, and not really fpga-specific diddling
decimation: heh s/n/ /
asciilifeform: likewise, when people ponder 'chip boobytraps' they are normally thinking of a one-transistor turdlet that creates an 'evil instruction' or whatnot
asciilifeform: an unexpected cpu in the middle of fpga LUT fabric would stand out even under optical microscope.
asciilifeform: so the turd has to be subtle
asciilifeform: what can one accomplish on fpga, knowing nothing about your opponent's future purpose for it, with a small turd ?
asciilifeform: (i don't insist there is no interesting answer to this question, just confess that i don't know one)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46803 @ 0.00074671 = 34.9483 BTC [-] {2}
decimation: yeah point taken. presumably satan will have your netlist anyway, if you want your part to be open to inspection
asciilifeform: i can take an educated guess, however.
asciilifeform: it is virtually impossible now to buy a pure fpga.
asciilifeform: almost always there are 'convenient' things rolled in - like pci-e support
asciilifeform: or sdram controllers
decimation: or serdes or cpu
asciilifeform: it would be fairly simple to include a pattern match for 'magic bus cycle' or 'magic instruction' on built-in-cpu that will, e.g., short supply to ground.
asciilifeform: release magic smoke
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7647 @ 0.00074656 = 5.7089 BTC [-] {2}
asciilifeform: to make long story short, there are exactly two vendors of 'high-density' fpga, and their products are almost exactly alike - more so even than 'coca cola' and 'pepsi.'
asciilifeform: both, afaik, market primarily to usg and subsidiaries
asciilifeform: 'xilinx' in particular brags of 'nsa certified' whatevers.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23253 @ 0.00074645 = 17.3572 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: NSA Approved Defense-Grade Spartan-6Q FPGA in Production for Highest Level Cryptographic Capabilities Strengthens Xilinx Secure Leadership - Aug 31, 2011
asciilifeform: neither is 'open' in any sense whatsoever.
decimation: "Key to the NSA's approval is the ability of the Spartan-6Q device to isolate user functionality within a single device while maintaining tamper proofing. The NSA completed a fail-safe analysis effort on the Spartan-6Q family to confirm that the individual regions of the FPGA are isolated from each other in the event of failure. "
asciilifeform: decimation: understand that this had no bearing on usg-triggered surprises.
decimation: no, and I think that particular chip isn't available to regular humans
asciilifeform: decimation: yes, bureaucrats demand some electrical tests to show that 'black' won't short to 'red' by accident.
asciilifeform: decimation: available. 'ebay' for example.
asciilifeform: buy as many as you want.
mircea_popescu: soiled diapers, Serbian cigarettes <<< dude wtf.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: Official Truth holds that he's a ww2 reenactor gone off the spools
decimation: wow you can buy cheap fgpa dev boards on ebay
asciilifeform: decimation: i've never bought them anywhere else.
mircea_popescu: i don't get it. so you just take a piss.
mircea_popescu: why would you wear devices to make the piss cling to you ?!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: u.s. army issues diapers. ask them - not me
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> why would you wear devices to make the piss cling to you ?! << This is why I suspect a bit of cargo cult happening
asciilifeform: mats_cd03 << did you wear them ?
decimation: it is amusing that ebay has effectively become 'amazon for shenzhen'
mircea_popescu: so there's this theatre right outside my windo, where a derpy guy does i dunno what dances.
asciilifeform: mats_cd03: what's the rationale for diapers ?
mircea_popescu: there's been teenage girl wailings pretty much non stop for an hour
mats_cd03: diapers + baby wipes are god's gift to men in the field
mircea_popescu: what the fuck, minor celebrity
kakobrekla: 'amazon for shenzhen' < isnt that aliexpress or smth
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8900 @ 0.00074881 = 6.6644 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: mats_cd03 why would you wear diapers ?
mircea_popescu: the wipes i ee.
decimation: I guess I haven't used either of those
mats_cd03: my usual undergarments were soiled and crusty after 2 weeks in the field
decimation: whenever I load an alibaba page it makes me feel certain I'm about to be scammed
BingoBoingo: <kakobrekla> 'amazon for shenzhen' < isnt that aliexpress or smth << Basically the Alibabba thing gets its fame as where American small and medium businesses get their entire inventory
mats_cd03: worst part was... they were only crusty when they weren't being worn.
mircea_popescu: <bounce> I suspect an expert would gather a few good trackers and catch the guy in a week with ~30 people or so. << what trackers. this is 2014.
mats_cd03: turns right back into shit after a few hours
mats_cd03: its not really necessary. depends on the person
mircea_popescu: mats_cd03 help me out here. so you wore the same underwear for two weeks,
mircea_popescu: and if you're going to do that, best make it pampers ?
decimation: "The Stalking merit badge was one of the original 57 merit badges issued by the Boy Scouts of America in 1911; it was discontinued in 1952."
assbot: Tracking (Centennial merit badge) - MeritBadgeDotOrg
mats_cd03: they're comfy man, i don't know what to say
mircea_popescu: decimation and they were never ver ygood at it either.
mircea_popescu: mats_cd03 aite.
decimation: probably not, but they aren't even trying anymore
mircea_popescu: <decimation> asciilifeform: yeah that appears to be the situation. I don't understand how a gui desktop 'requires' a particular init system <<< join the conga line heh.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it 'requires' whatever the shitgnomes place in the 'requires' list.
asciilifeform: that's - how.
decimation: what I find interesting is that systemd has become standard in redhat enterprise 7
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> kept, possibly, in the deeds register << feel free.
decimation: redhat enterprise is famous for have 5 year old revs of everything ... except new init script hotness?
asciilifeform: decimation: this is how you find them.
mircea_popescu: decimation look, the plan to turn open source into windows lite is proceeding apace.
asciilifeform: decimation: just as a cockroach in your kitchen means, inescapably, that not far from it there is a seething brown mass of his brothers.
mircea_popescu: avahi, incidentally, was an atrocious piece of shit
mircea_popescu: it's incredible anyone seriously takes its author for a coder.
asciilifeform: another heuristic that invariably tells us where to dig.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu> avahi, incidentally, was an atrocious piece of shit << But it copies the also compeltely unwanted Bonjour piece of shit so well
mircea_popescu: <decimation> asciilifeform: the next step: somehow get a unix distribution that completely excludes contributions from the lustration list << i still think the correct solution is a github that does signed reads
mircea_popescu: then let people filkter it out by their own criteria.
mircea_popescu: we got the wot, let's use the wot.
asciilifeform: heuristic: 1) piece of shit? 2) mysteriously ubiquitous? 3) quickly? 4) author is socially connected to other derpers pushing similar items that match 1-4 ?
decimation: yeah I agree
decimation: 'filter software by all known contributors' would be useful
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform mind that heuristics don't work well when lustration lists are involved.
mircea_popescu: decimation not contributors. filter by the people who read and signed off on this code.
mircea_popescu: nobdy gives a shit about the author. writing software is like taking a shit, worthless.
TheNewDeal: ;;calc .00000001*3500
gribble: 3.5e-05
mircea_popescu: tasting othe rpeople's shit is a valued skill
asciilifeform: today - no list. today all we have is loud, proud enemy, bragging about his deeds
asciilifeform: not even pretending to bother to hide.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform we got the infrastructure. the guilotine, so to speak, is built.
mircea_popescu: that derps prance around it and pretend to be making light of its powerlessness...
mircea_popescu: that's the privilege of sheep.
mircea_popescu: any pig may take a piss on the blade late december. whether he does or does not, come christmas...
decimation: right, for instance someone in redhat said "yes, let's use poettering's turd in our next distro'
mircea_popescu: <decimation> the problem is that nearly all hardware vendors would be on the list too << how i this a problem ?
bounce: you know, I've always had an instinctive disliking of avahi, without even having to read the code. some code really can smell right through everything.
mircea_popescu: bounce isn't it incredible how readily a circlejerk is formed
mircea_popescu: "great minds think alike and idiots seldom differ", was it.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: guillotine << after years of searching, i finally found that ancient tale:
mircea_popescu: asstraffoc ?!
asciilifeform: 'This gift certificate entitles the bearer to 1 (one) of our latest model of our most popular sexecution device the VibrotineTM 6000 GSP.'
asciilifeform: asstr where else
decimation: oh, poettering is employed by redhat - someone hired him
bounce: hard to tell who's doing the circle jerking though.
mircea_popescu: <bounce> but an overly large list would be counter-productive; a valid concern. << counterproductive in what sense ?
mircea_popescu: we have an ample overabundance of both humans and capital goods. why is excluding all the vendors or all the social mediated shitheads a cost ?
mircea_popescu: it's a benefit.
bounce: if you have unlimited procuring power and so can order whatever you want from whichever custom shop can deliver it
mircea_popescu: <kakobrekla> dare to continue as is, you will, sooner or later, find yourself on the list. << this is a valid concern.
asciilifeform: professional hazard of guillotine operation, yes.
TheNewDeal: whens the next #ba meetup?
Vexual: nao
mircea_popescu: * bounce didn't catch on to hiding behind lame excuses with the openssl folks, but if so that ought to be enough to get the s/w booted entirely, not just revamped. << it is.
decimation: oh, poettering is employed by redhat - someone hired hi
TheNewDeal: like the irl one
mircea_popescu: de raadt made the same call
mircea_popescu: $conference
empyex: mircea_popescu: Next conference starts in 6 months and 20 days. Estimated cost today: 3.27056492 BTC (Details: )
bounce: well, not entirely. they started kicking out "cruft" but keeping the general structure and core code
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> bounce: search channel logs re: at least three separate discussions of how this came to be << you know, giving terms like "xilinx" is better than an empty search entreaty. he doesn't know what to search for.
asciilifeform: xilinx.
mircea_popescu: bounce it gets complicated, obviously. tbh i don't have atm an opinion on the libre thing
assbot: 20 Freescale staff on vanished Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 The Register
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> counting a shifter as 'xxx gates' worth << how the fuck does that work. bit register shifting ?
bounce: ultimately the APIs it offers need to go since they're badly designed and tricky to use correctly. but you can't exactly do that for a drop-in replacement. this is a low-hanging fruit approach. though the new crew is IMO a better deal than throwing money at the guys that made such a mess of it, as google et al did.
decimation: BingoBoingo: some companies have rules about how many staff can travel on one flight
TheNewDeal: wasn't the last conference like 5 btc entry?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they could it as however many gates it is made of. and conveniently forget to mention that they can't be rewired using the switching matrix (only a rather smallish number of 'generic' gates can)
mircea_popescu: TheNewDeal something like that. but that was in 2013.
asciilifeform: *count it as
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu> bounce it gets complicated, obviously. tbh i don't have atm an opinion on the libre thing << My read. Watch the chopping for a year or two and see what happens.
Vexual: yeah, the costs of throwing a can of jolt at a $2000 lcd have gone up too, and you need better aim
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo quite.
TheNewDeal: vexual, what's the drink count at tonight?
mircea_popescu: not so smart making calls on babies, either. l;et them grow first.
bounce: the immediate risk is that they'll be insufferable for a goodly while.
assbot: Japanese artist cuffed for disseminating 3D ladyparts files The Register
mircea_popescu: still this boring woman ?
asciilifeform must have missed the first part, if 'still'
mircea_popescu: it's so sad to see the libertard behaviour trying to take hold in otherwise pleasant countries.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> not so smart making calls on babies, either. l;et them grow first. << What I like about Deraadt is while Pottering came to make Lindows, De Raadt's came into *nix fascinated with process separation
assbot: Staying on the cutting edge - Technology -
mircea_popescu: there's this failure that aspires to be an artist through pr.
mircea_popescu: she's been doing this for a while now.
asciilifeform: aha, 'pussy riots'
mircea_popescu: not even.
mircea_popescu: at least those are bangable.
mircea_popescu: this tard's like 50.
mircea_popescu: nubile young women being too stupid to live is almost expected
mircea_popescu: definitely makes one suspicious if they aren't.
mircea_popescu: but by the age of infertility one'd expect even a libertard to wisen up a little.
asciilifeform: suspicious of what ?
mircea_popescu: that's not how suspicious works.
BingoBoingo: decimation: Interesting place to put a limit
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo, decimation: usg has a famous, traditional limit for number of top bureaucrats in one square km.
decimation: my personal opinion is that something bad happened on the jet, oxygen got sucked out before anyone could do much, becomes 'death ship'
assbot: Helios Airways Flight 522 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
assbot: We May Have Problems, But at Least We're Not Jailing Artists for 3-D Printing Their Vaginas - The Daily Show - Video Clip | Comedy Central
mats_cd03: i used to attend these sexual harassment briefings while in .mil
Vexual: dont take your diaper off in polite company?
mats_cd03: it would typically tend with the audience half-asleep, horrified, or angst-ridden
asciilifeform: mats_cd03: lol, they herded us (contractors) in for the claptrap, too
mats_cd03: topics included consent while inebriated, with the tag-line often being 'if you're drunk and she's drunk, neither of you can consent, so you're rapin each other up in here'.
asciilifeform: mats_cd03: the only funnier mandatory timewaster was the 'counter-intelligence' one
Vexual: meanwhile the japanese girl is advancing hydrodynamics without even trying
TomServo: 22:20.16 +mats_cd03 | it would typically tend with the audience half-asleep, horrified, or angst-ridden
mats_cd03: a contractor i worked with had a hearing implant
mats_cd03: he told me once he would sometimes tune the speakers out... such jealousy
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26800 @ 0.00074641 = 20.0038 BTC [-]
mats_cd03: there were a lot of those time wasters.
decimation: I had a friend who was white, married a black woman. he still had to go to the mandatory racial sensitivity class
mats_cd03: lets see... sexual harassment. counterintelligence. resilience. suicide prevention. equal opportunity.
mats_cd03: and of course... change of command ceremonies. weekend safety briefs. area beautification.
mats_cd03: they really don't cover the janitor/babysitter roles in the Army of One commercials.
asciilifeform: mats_cd03: glorious things. esp. when being marched in despite having no conceivable role in the proceedings.
mats_cd03: i developed a talent for checking out with my eyes open while standing up, though.
decimation: it seems to me that these are fundamentally religious in nature
mats_cd03: oops... not Army of One anymore. Be All You Can Be? nah that was before. i think its Army Strong now.
decimation: in ancient Rome the equivalent would be how to consult the entrails of a chicken to see if the gods are pleased
decimation: these whiners about bendy iphones are hilarious. we want our iphones paper thin but NOT BENDY!
mats_cd03: apple's burning cash building a new campus next to cupertino village
decimation: you know, if apple (and the rest of the silly-con valley band) really want to save money, why not relocate to des moines?
mats_cd03: because they've managed to create a talent vortex in SV
asciilifeform: why would they want to save money ?
mats_cd03: not a very good one, by some accounts, but still
decimation: asciilifeform: that gets to the root of the problem. I have no idea
asciilifeform: !s stotting
decimation: why does zuckerberg want to beg usg for cheap slave labor?
Vexual: ;;date
gribble: Error: "date" is not a valid command.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27268 @ 0.0007463 = 20.3501 BTC [-] {3}
mats_cd03: i thought it was about getting cheap, _excellent_ slave labor
mats_cd03: after all, universities in the us are just not producing the candidates they want
decimation: (at the price they like)
Vexual: cheap and subsidised are two different things
mats_cd03: i would not be surprised if 90% of us CS graduates are unemployable
Vexual: CS?
Vexual: oh
Vexual: yeah knowing what you want is the hardest part
decimation: the us only graduates ~15,000 b.s. degrees in electrical or computer engineering
Vexual: pa?
Vexual: and how many from 15k are worth a pinch of shit?
Vexual: pls interpret this infographic for me
decimation: well, for the price of one whatsapp, facebook could have hired 6 years worth of graduates, pay them each $100k salary and $100k to do something interesting
Vexual: ;;calc 6*15000
gribble: 90000
asciilifeform: !s merit washing
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21300 @ 0.00074619 = 15.8938 BTC [-]
decimation: ;;calc 90000*200e3
gribble: Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
asciilifeform: ^ or propose another explanation for, e.g., reviving 1990s 'man in the iron mask' virtual oculars
decimation: ;;calc 90000*200000
gribble: 18000000000
decimation: asciilifeform: that's a pretty likely hypothesis
decimation: it would explain the derping for immigrants too, if one interprets as 'noblesse oblige'
Vexual: do they still do compuer science degrees?
asciilifeform: Vexual: which 'they' ? here - yes. (though, continuously diluted in the requirements)
Vexual: did you study computer science?
Vexual: like 6 months of pascal with a pen?
decimation: Vexual: cs degrees were excluded by the earlier pdf, because it was focused on engineering
decimation: not that I could clearly delineate computer engineering and 'computer science'
asciilifeform: pascal was fashionable when i was in grade school, which is where it was taught
asciilifeform: (it was actually inflicted on my by sibling much earlier)
Vexual: and so you prolly enhanced your university with new concepts?
Vexual: advanced the cirriculem and all?
Vexual: were you good at it?
decimation: in my experience undergrads were generally ineligible to advance anything
decimation: they are the lowest members of the education bureaucracy
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