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(trilema) feedbot: http://bvt-trace.net/2019/03/ffa-chapter-9-homework-comba-in-x86_64-assembly/ << bvt's backtrace -- FFA Chapter 9 Homework: Comba in X86_64 Assembly
(trilema) mircea_popescu: this is yet another red herring. it is evidently true one needs arbitrary long chunks for arbitrary long tasks, say "to prove m-r i need a weekend alone". but "ffa" IS NOT this. ffa is eminently aditive.
(trilema) asciilifeform: maybe this is a revelation to mircea_popescu , but 3 noncontiguous 1hr timeslots birth 0 ffa.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: "the cost to buy this $160`000 item [which really can be had at $8`000 with some regularity, if one's not in a hurry] for $7`750 is $7`750 in cash + dropping the ballo on ffa + whatever else it is.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: then you can say "hey folks, we're done with the ffa that i know how to do, item is shelved for now, will pick it up if i wise up"
(trilema) mircea_popescu: now you're in the position where you complain "no cash for pizarro" and "no time for ffa".
(trilema) asciilifeform: do we have to do the 'do you want CORRECT ffa or fast ffa' thrd again.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: the question is specific enough. you a) failed to publish any ffa matter during the MONTH of february. not during ~each individual week~, as the original notion went, after the last time we reviewed this, more or less around http://ossasepia.com/2018/02/06/its-only-words-and-assumptions-and-priorities-and-ouch/
(trilema) asciilifeform: for instance ? 'on what burned cycles?' 3h on xray. 22 on pizarro (iron what-do, and learning how to mircea_popescuate forums, which not ready for field of yet). 30+ on ffa.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so what am i putting in this month's report, " alf was gonna do ffa but went away to play with xrays instead" ?
(trilema) asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i've had occasion to move the stack limit ( when tested ffa with massive fz widths, recall , all allocations are on stack ) but not otherwise
(trilema) asciilifeform: ( as asciilifeform recently discovered re ffa. it dun thread, and gcc correctly snips out all pertinent coad )
(trilema) asciilifeform: asciilifeform's 1st step in writing ffa, recall, was to conceive of (and prove) an arithmetic workaround for above. that, right off the bat, cost ~10fold cpu.
(trilema) asciilifeform: as is all current test build of ffa, etc
(trilema) asciilifeform: could link to the x60 affair also.
(trilema) asciilifeform: ( i dun currently use, but it's definitely going into the final revs of ffa )
(trilema) asciilifeform: ( e.g., ffa, built yes on arm64 using ave1's system, but it's spartan to the point of starvation featurewise)
(trilema) asciilifeform: one could actually ffa on that ( if somehow find one ! )
(trilema) asciilifeform: ( btw the obj reason why none of this is visible in ffa -- there aint any tasks! so even in ljmp mode it shits out same coad )
(trilema) asciilifeform: ( to 0 measurable diff in ffa, oddly enuff, but on e.g. tiny micros might make a diff.. )
(trilema) asciilifeform nao wonders if there's a seekrit chest fulla ffa speedup in this dig
(trilema) asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i've had to up stack depth on 1 occasion before -- when testing ffa with ridiculously wide bitnesses ( recall, item runs 100% stackistically )
(trilema) asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ffa built with inlining switched off is actually ok test for ~that~ imho
(trilema) asciilifeform will re-play ffa benchmarks on the longjmp gnat, once the latter's built, but doesn't expect to find any measurable diff
(trilema) asciilifeform: a linear process can still be heavy enuff (e.g. a 8192-bit primality test on ffa) that you wouldn't want to wait for it to finish when killing a thread
(trilema) asciilifeform: if you have cppola ( or even, e.g., an asm-enhanced ffa ) in yer loop, it won't be poll-killable.
(trilema) asciilifeform: ( see e.g. ch15 ffa )
(trilema) asciilifeform: diana_coman: ffacalc fwiw builds an' runs on crapple, but only in 'debug' (misnomer, you can't actually debug..) mode
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2019-02-12 14:13 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-12#1895234 << ffa uses exceptions strictly as 'fucking stop whole program (and if it's running on a micro, whole machine, and flash 'dead!' lamp) right nao!' , so won't impact. my understanding is that it'd impact only speed of the ~exceptions~, longjump is slower cuz it crosses pages -- cachaistically.
(trilema) asciilifeform: ( and in the FG reader -- again cuz the underlying i/o routines produce'em )
(trilema) asciilifeform: ( ffacalc ~does~ have a handler, strictly for trapping invalid cmdline args, ln. 75. )
(trilema) asciilifeform: ( and since nobody asked 'where exactly does ffa use exceptions? i dun see any throws' -- answr is, ~all~ ada coad where bounds checks are enabled, theoretically 'uses' exception, if you break a bounds check what do you suppose happens.)
(trilema) asciilifeform: ( in ffa, exceptions are a 'catch fire' condition, and drop into the last-chance handler, but in moar complicated proggy, with, say, devices, you may want to actually handle and keep working )
(trilema) asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-12#1895272 << serpent dun have many jumps in it, recall, it's unrolled, even fewer jumps (conditional or otherwise) than ffa
(trilema) asciilifeform: btw this is why i sewed ffa into a linkable lib. ~it~ can still be built with restrictions even if running inside a proggy with tasks etc
(trilema) asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-12#1895234 << ffa uses exceptions strictly as 'fucking stop whole program (and if it's running on a micro, whole machine, and flash 'dead!' lamp) right nao!' , so won't impact. my understanding is that it'd impact only speed of the ~exceptions~, longjump is slower cuz it crosses pages -- cachaistically.
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2019-02-12 13:18 bvt: i expect it will be slower, but it won't hurt to do the check. the impact will depend on how exceptions are used (i don't think it can have any impact on ffa, for example). but i don't have enough experience with it to provide any numbers
(trilema) mircea_popescu: ffa eminently bad for this, cuz of all the ct stuff.
(trilema) bvt: i expect it will be slower, but it won't hurt to do the check. the impact will depend on how exceptions are used (i don't think it can have any impact on ffa, for example). but i don't have enough experience with it to provide any numbers
(trilema) asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/ffa/gnatology/ave1gnat/index.htm << linked for the log. cross-indexing dunwork currently, as the damn thing aint a gpr project, but currently i dun have time to try to massage it into one , promises to be a week-long shitfest on its own
(trilema) asciilifeform: and in particular, ln. 1079 of s-taprop-linux.adb , which implements the pthread mechanics behind the gnat scheduler
(trilema) asciilifeform intends eventually to actually try ffa on a micro with deliberately-glitchy environment, e.g. inside that xray oven, and see how this goes in real life
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2019-02-05 14:49 asciilifeform: on that subj, attentive ffa reader will notice in certain places asciilifeform marked in comment 'cosmic ray resistance' . this indicates mechanisms where there are two or more separate pieces that ensure a correct computation (or death with alarm bells) if somehow bit flips , when this is inexpensive.
(trilema) asciilifeform: http://ossasepia.com/2019/02/07/seppuku-job-market-minimal-dynamic-tasking-in-ada/#selection-101.42-101.207 << possibly i mentioned this prev., but asciilifeform avoids secondarystack not because it doesn't work reliably , but because it makes audit of binary moar difficult. i dunno if this concern is really applicable to items other than ffa.
(trilema) asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i cant speak for eucrypt, but ffa is at least as much experiment in 'can program be written to make sense?' as it is arithm lib
(trilema) mircea_popescu: yes "object oriented" verbosity is ridoinculous. nevertheless there is A LOT of meta involved that no ida ever sucks out, cuz it's not machine-accessible. which is why both eucrypt and ffa published chapters look like they do.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: the point of the entire fucking affair, really.
(trilema) asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i'ma get to it at some pt. currently hands full with 1) ffa 16b & 17 2) looking into to whom we gotta http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-03#1892227 3) speccing components for 2nd rk plant
(trilema) mircea_popescu: whether you're willing to confront this or not, it's still factual that ~you~ wrote ffa at least ~in part~ because republic, and left to your own devices entirely you'd conceivably be http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-04#1892360 to this very day!
(trilema) mircea_popescu: where truffle is macro-expanded to "fixed my ffa" ?
(trilema) mircea_popescu: education is this process whereby people are sharpened, not changed. if girl has it in her to outwrite your ffa, she conceivably will, and if not, she will not. why's this something i'm to fret about ?
(trilema) mircea_popescu: and then b) why and wherefore is "work" defined in terms of "ffa improvements" ? thing's not even supposed to be ~improvable~.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: except the situation is exactly reversed : it's not nicoleci that's expected to improve on ffa, it's you that's expected to improve on http://trilema.com/2018/how-things-have-changed/#selection-489.0-501.257
(trilema) asciilifeform: and yes if/when nicoleci or new one etc sends in an optimization for ffa arithm, i'ma take it back.
(trilema) asciilifeform: we already iirc did the a:'so how many solved the ffa puzzlers' m : 'i wouldn't waste a precious trained gurl on such dirty works' thrd, dun have to replay.
(trilema) asciilifeform: mircea_popescu had a http://trilema.com/2016/how-to-participate-in-the-affairs-of-the-most-serene-republic/ , since marked obsolete. i suspect state of the art is still 'read log for year and come back if grasped'
(trilema) asciilifeform: on hardwarized ffa variants, this output is to be connected to either an actual bell, or at least red 'sad' lamp.
(trilema) asciilifeform: on that subj, attentive ffa reader will notice in certain places asciilifeform marked in comment 'cosmic ray resistance' . this indicates mechanisms where there are two or more separate pieces that ensure a correct computation (or death with alarm bells) if somehow bit flips , when this is inexpensive.
(trilema) asciilifeform: truly vintage (ada-83) won't eat ffa, there is use of 'in out' parameters.
(trilema) asciilifeform: re ada2012, that was actually a good q, and i'll answer it for the log : ffa in fact uses preconditions, a 2012 knob.
(trilema) asciilifeform: diana_coman: posssibly i oughtn't to graduate'em till they solve all the ffa homeworks.
(trilema) asciilifeform: verisimilitude: as a concrete example : you will find that ffa uses an unmoving hinge for karatsuba multiplication. consequently all numbers are required to occupy a space that is a power-of-two bits wide. but from this you get a 3-4x simpler mechanism.
(trilema) asciilifeform: ffa in particular is intended as , among other things, a didactic demonstration of what means 'fits-in-head'.
(trilema) asciilifeform: i intend to port ffa to msdos, for instance, and don't expect that gnat will be building it ~on~ dos box.
(trilema) verisimilitude: Alright; I'll keep that in mind when I am finally able to study your FFA.
(trilema) asciilifeform: verisimilitude: in 2016 i found that i gotta write a safety-critical arithmetic system (nao known as ffa) and found that i cannot in good conscience do it in anyffin but ada.
(trilema) asciilifeform: seems like verisimilitude has visited previously, but nao is getting into adaism via ffa ( http://logs.bvulpes.com/asciilifeform?d=2019-2-5#458157 )
(trilema) asciilifeform: also unlike e.g. rms, asciilifeform even washes, even tho washing dun even directly bake any ffa...
(trilema) mircea_popescu: "i can't do any ffa work because i'm working on a manner in which to do it that wouldn't produce the idle inquiry of loc 6 months in"
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2019-01-29 17:34 asciilifeform: comments ( grep -P '^\s*--' ) turn out to be 1835 ln in libffa and 390 in ffacalc.
(trilema) asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-04#1892238 << possibly oughta include the tidbit re arithmetical part of ffa being 100% built (can gen rsa primez nao, can do so easily after ch17, where looping is introduced)
(trilema) asciilifeform: ( this means that e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-06#1832315 theoretically suffices for 'os' on which can run ffacalc. )
(trilema) asciilifeform: for ffa , the only os knobs you need are 1) a means for getting commandline string 2) equiv. of putchar 3) equiv. of getchar 4) a means to read bytes from a FG .
(trilema) asciilifeform: re ffa in particular, if yer testing on something truly exotic (in re not having a posix layer) you will have to change a coupla lines in os.adb where i/o happens
(trilema) asciilifeform: incidentally i expect that results from 'does ffa build' carry over to errybody who is currently using a ffa-derived gpr config ( this includes diana_coman , iirc , and possibly phf )
(trilema) asciilifeform: incidentally, even old-fashioned barbaric adacorpse gnat was well-behaved re '-static' flag -- there's an os that dun even support static link (crapple) and it will properly barf there, rather than silently build dynamic ( incidentally can still build a runnable ffa there, fwiw, in debug mode -- see readme.txt )
(trilema) asciilifeform: trinque: see ffa as example
(trilema) asciilifeform: diana_coman: in ch17 incidentally this comes into play in ffadom.
(trilema) asciilifeform: diana_coman: he said 'threading model' so i assumed he found some ffa-style fascistic constraint to put on it, lol
(trilema) mircea_popescu: did you, incidentally, read up on this tranby croft affair ?
(trilema) mircea_popescu: not even. rather, that they invented the pill doesn't mean much changes, because the ~pretense~ was that "they're fucking your wife because they don't feel like raising her children". the TRUTH was that "the only possible way human affairs are settled is -- boss has a harem, you wish to work for boss so therefore marry one of his whores".
(trilema) shinohai: Not bad, just noticed last nite ave1's site back up so in process of building musl gnat today then on to revisiting ffa stuffs
(trilema) mod6: I'm even spending a few spare cycles on FFA chapter 1.
(trilema) asciilifeform: comments ( grep -P '^\s*--' ) turn out to be 1835 ln in libffa and 390 in ffacalc.
(trilema) asciilifeform: this gives 4013 (libffa) , 1047 (ffacalc) .
(trilema) asciilifeform: meanwhile as of ch16a: libffa : 5142 loc ; ffacalc : 1279; for total 6421 (incl. readme, manifest, comments.)
(trilema) diana_coman: yay, m-r on ffa; now I'll really have to schedule ffa feast during breaks from work, lol
(trilema) mircea_popescu: the original said "The French don't like being famous for their incapacity of being on time ? Let them fix their watches somehow to the same hour, so they quit going about Paris, apparent adults, with half hour's delta among what their watches show. " and i'm willing to attest even as late as LAST DECADE this was a factual state of affairs.
(trilema) phf: i don't understand how anyone can read the logs with one eye, this shit's exponential: i'm behind on ffa, so the recent work on e.g. gcd or miller-rabin is particularly slow going.
(trilema) asciilifeform: diana_coman: i went through the algo, to bake ffaistic proof of correctness, and get n - 1.
(trilema) asciilifeform: in so far as anyone can tell, it's troo, and then 64bit witnesses suffice for 4096bit candidates. but not only relies on riemann, but dun win anyffin in ffa, where very small and very large number eat same cpu.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: meanwhile in yet other lulz : https://issuu.com/craps/docs/fa2014 ( A Family Affair : Bull & Female Sale )
(trilema) asciilifeform: btw, imho it's a good example of 'ffa-style' narrowing of problem domain ( there is no good reason for ancient tx to be rewritable )
(trilema) asciilifeform: as for asciilifeform currently , sweating out a proper proof of correctness for m-r . ( subj of ch. 16 ). after that, will remain to add iteration to ffacalc; then , keccak.
(trilema) asciilifeform: may recall, 1st draft of ffa used genericism, i removed it
(trilema) asciilifeform: note that mmap is not a front burner item currently for asciilifeform - i dun need it in ffa, will come back to it after.
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2018-11-16 23:13 asciilifeform: it is on hold pending resolution of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-26#1866266 ( and is taking back seat to ffa currently )
(trilema) asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-22#1889099 << i daren't to 'do something about it' until properly understood the problem. sorta like didnt dare to attempt trb in 2013, or ffa in 2015, etc
(trilema) asciilifeform: bvt: even the current (ch11 and after) ffa relies on a gnat with working forced-inlining
(trilema) asciilifeform: granted, an unrolled ffa would operate on a fixed width (e.g. 8192) of primary fz.
(trilema) bvt: i guess i could do some experiments here. the immediate question is that ffa does plenty of FZ_Adds with different FZ'Length, so full unrolling would not really work (unless i miss something).
(trilema) asciilifeform: koch's turd, despite being implemented in c, with no bounds checks, actually loses to ch14 ffa , for inputs of same ~width~ -- despite fact that he doesn't constanttime and thereby gets to skip massive work
(trilema) asciilifeform: bvt: i expect one would trivially get a 10-20x speedup over the ordinary ffa, esp. if the item still fits in l1
(trilema) asciilifeform: before considering to bake irons, it is worth to see what a 100%-asmic ffa would give.
(trilema) asciilifeform: nao, it isn't as if the current ffa, with 2.7sec 4096-bit modexp, is immediately usable to eat packets at line rate. but that part at least theoretically parallelizes ( i.e. a rack fulla multicore boxen running ffa, can theoretically eat packets at line rate... )
(trilema) asciilifeform: helps to recall that the problem which originally prompted asciilifeform to write ffa, is a (currently hypothetical) application where rsa sigs are carried in ~individual packets~
(trilema) asciilifeform: ftr i suspect that entirely ordinary algos, such as are seen in the current ffa, would already give ~line-rate~ (i.e. , 4096 modexp faster than 1G/s nic can give you new inputs to modexp on ) if implemented in iron properly.
(trilema) asciilifeform: ( '1st commandment' of ffa : thou shalt not branch on seekrit bits. '2nd commandment' -- thou shalt not index memory by seekrit bits ... )
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2019-01-20 16:23 asciilifeform: as i noted previously -- i do not expect to find any moar ~asymptotic~ speedups for ffa algos , such that are relevant to the sizes of numbers typically used in public key crypto
(trilema) asciilifeform: 1 annoying aspect of 'iron ffa'-gedankenexperiment, is that none of the available fpga ( either 'ice40' series, or the evil ones ) are anywhere near big enuff to prototype with. it'd have to be simulated a la http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2593 , slowly, and then straight to silicon.
(trilema) asciilifeform: in a hypothetical asmistic branch of ffa, you'd want to implement whole comba in asm, rather than merely word mul
(trilema) bvt: my understanding is that asmism would go only for lower-level ffa code, i.e. barret/modexp will remain as-is.
(trilema) asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/ffa/hypertext/ch15/w_mul__adb.htm#95_14 << specifically here, currently we do 4 MUL instrs for where really needs only 1
(trilema) asciilifeform: as i noted previously -- i do not expect to find any moar ~asymptotic~ speedups for ffa algos , such that are relevant to the sizes of numbers typically used in public key crypto
(trilema) asciilifeform: bvt: there's a long list of things that asciilifeform considered and (for time being) rejected from ffa, on acct of costing substantial complexity for very small saving of cpu cost. e.g. unrolled comba.
(trilema) asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-20#1888467 << gotta nitpick here: it aint allocations (which in ffa planet are always done by stack frame, in O(1) ) that leads to slow, but cache eviction ( as well as linear overhead from doing moar ops in general )
(trilema) asciilifeform: ( not particularly useful for ffa, but potentially elsewhere.. )
(trilema) mircea_popescu: not ffa ; the "lfence" bs i mean.
(trilema) asciilifeform takes the occasion to observe that ffa is 'speculation'-proof, not only in theory but as empirically tested on 7 ( & counting ) intel boxen of various vintages
(trilema) mod6: Would be awesome if Pizzaro could sell iron that can run cuntoo + ffa + fg + trb out of the gate [ + others too, i.e. eulora, etc ]
(trilema) mircea_popescu: "This last paranthesis also explains why crime fightin' is never a "the people" affair, in case you're curious. It's not some sort of evil conspiracy to keep "the citizens" ("the people" call themselves that when unsure of their footing) from exercising "justice". It's just that practically, left to their own devices, "the people" couldn't care less." or how did that go.
(trilema) asciilifeform: i haven't succeeded in crashing a rockchip yet ( outside from the rotting usb ssd's affair )
(trilema) asciilifeform: relatedly, asciilifeform has a backburner affair where disasm of the particular 3ware bios , looking for lulz (to date found none, aside from it having a quite bulky cpp runtime lib)
(trilema) asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: after ffa is fielded, i'ma add gmp etc carmichaelisms to phuctor.
(trilema) asciilifeform: but again , not directly pertinent to ffalogy.
(trilema) asciilifeform: re verifications, observe the general pattern in ffaism: i expect any serious user to have a private battery of tests to verify that his, particular, ffa builds, actually conform to the declared behaviours.
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2019-01-14 02:37 mircea_popescu: in other news, ffa chapters are such a pleasure. it seems to me by now ffa has become such a largest-rock in the loperos garden...
(trilema) mircea_popescu: in other news, ffa chapters are such a pleasure. it seems to me by now ffa has become such a largest-rock in the loperos garden...
(trilema) diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-11#1886349 -> better spent on ffa, surely; thanks for the offer anyway though!
(trilema) asciilifeform: a 'graduate' of ffa (i.e. fella who ~read~ the thing, as it was intended to be read, and fit-in-head) will have no trouble writing his particular variant of correct prime generator for his particular type of key.
(trilema) asciilifeform: observe that by this scheme, we also avoid hardcoding primorials for 'G' test. author of tape is responsible for including a primorial ~for his chosen ffawidth~ if he intends to use G litmusing.
(trilema) asciilifeform: the only 'magic number' in ffa is the concession that all FZ must be at least 256bits long
(trilema) asciilifeform: per the ffa plan, 'P' command will take two numbers from the stack, a candidate integer and a witness. author of pcode tape determines how many witnesses to use, he iterates by generating witnesses and calling P repeatedly as many times as he wants
(trilema) asciilifeform: cuz without a bound, s is potentially ffawidth - 1 .
(trilema) asciilifeform: ( recall that ffa dun use memory allocators , disk, etc )
(trilema) asciilifeform: some time after i get ffa to field testing , i'ma dust off ave1's bare iron gnat and bake 'ffa os', will be ~same thing
(trilema) asciilifeform: this means not only slightly slower gcd than the draft posted earlier (it'll need a mux) but it also means that e.g. http://www.loper-os.org/pub/ffa/hypertext/ch14/fz_qshft__adb.htm#111_14 was in fact leaking, albeit undetectable on the tests given in ch14, and will need mandatory HaveBarrelShifter = 0 (i.e. 5% or so penalty)
(trilema) asciilifeform actually considered a fortran ffa, in '16
(trilema) asciilifeform: ( observe that ch1 ffa actually starts out by http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1913#selection-337.0-1150.0 , i.e. banning 90% of ada.. why didja suppose this was. )
(trilema) asciilifeform: ( observe, the only 'access pointer' in ffa is where it sucks in cmdline args from unix )
(trilema) asciilifeform: mod6: at the risk of sounding like mircea_popescu in earlier thread -- why is this a mega-project ? i reground ffa to keccak in about 10minute (after getting hold of a working keccak-vtron)
(trilema) asciilifeform: the linked piece read like a 'bugger-for-meth' affair
(trilema) mircea_popescu: "but mp, you own this-and-so company that got specific safe harbour /legal extemption/ whatever precisely fitting "berth" definition item from x/y/z posturer to authority". "yes, i did ; and i can, too. but it is a) not ever obtained through the avenue here contemplated and, importantly, MUCH more importantly, b) a dodge. it is strictly there to mask from the dangerous the fundamental state of affairs."
(trilema) asciilifeform: for comparison, ada sores of ch14 ffa, incl. comments, weighs ~300kB
(trilema) asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-06#1885042 << this'll be handy when i get to asmized variant of inner muls in ffa. looking forward to reading ave1's piece.
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2019-01-05 16:40 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-05#1884626 << i suspect phf is hunting elk in kamchatka, or similar , atm ( i.e. still waiting for http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=ffa refresh , so i dun think he's been at console much recently )
(trilema) asciilifeform: right. whole affair is 'what's the most general arithmetron that is also a useful rsatron', from my pov.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: anyway, nothing wrong with that ffa design choice, if you like it ; if you don't anymore, also not the end of world.
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2019-01-06 00:08 mircea_popescu: nobody is going to hate your ffa if it includes montgomery, with the proper warning.
(trilema) asciilifeform: oh hm i recall nao. ( it was because operator 'P' wants to be a general-purpose primality test, valid for any input whatsoever that fits in the ffawidth, rather than simply 'generate prime' )
(trilema) mircea_popescu: nobody is going to hate your ffa if it includes montgomery, with the proper warning.
(trilema) asciilifeform: gcd(x, primorial) gotta use same instructions when x = 0, 1, ... as when it equals 2^ffawidth - 1 .
(trilema) asciilifeform: to round out the 'loose ends' thread -- asciilifeform also has a ~90% built node-walker and www front end for same. but it is in refrigerator, no one is direly starving for the lack of the thing, i expect i'll come back and finish it off strictly after ffa is fielded .
(trilema) asciilifeform: hopefully he comes back soonish ( i'ma not even pester him re bolix, bolix is asciilifeform's personal war, learned not to expect help from anyone, and currently in refrigerator, i dun expect to spend much time on it while ffa undone )
(trilema) asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-05#1884626 << i suspect phf is hunting elk in kamchatka, or similar , atm ( i.e. still waiting for http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=ffa refresh , so i dun think he's been at console much recently )
(trilema) asciilifeform: ( already hats off to ave1 , who did year+ of gnat cleanup that asciilifeform was solidly convinced he'd have to do with own hands; and the fixed inlining gave us a ~2x ffa speedup 'for phree' ! )
(trilema) asciilifeform: also at some point it'd be great to have a mips gnat, so i can plant ffa on pocket-sized irons. but that's for muchlaters.
(trilema) asciilifeform: ffa is designed to be used via pcode (aka 'peh') but i'm not about to tell folx that they absolutely must. given the stated reqs (you gotta test for div0ism, we dun do it internally given as it's thermonuke performance) it can be safely used directly.
(trilema) asciilifeform: and likewise, you can put as many fz on stack as the stack height given in invocation of ffacalc, but not any moar.
(trilema) asciilifeform: ( if you use pcode, these get done inside ffacalc, and ditto the stack memory mechanics, as you prolly knew already )
(trilema) asciilifeform: diana_coman: btw it is perfectly ok also to simply invoke the knobs exported in ffa.ads directly, but then you gotta take care of 1) endianism of the words being put in and gotten out , to match yours 2) testing for div0 , as done in http://www.loper-os.org/pub/ffa/hypertext/ch14/ffa_calc__adb.htm
(trilema) diana_coman: asciilifeform, first I do need to finish getting the ffa in, so that will still take quite a while; other than that, it's more a matter of "as time permits" and as mircea_popescu says it's not top priority; that being said yes, I'd like to do it and see some timings and comparison for myself
(trilema) asciilifeform: what i prolly oughta roll into the conveyor, is a variant of ffacalc that's libraryized (i.e. callable from other program, with string argument containing pcode, and fills a provided buffer with the output)
(trilema) asciilifeform: i promise to come back to this thrd, if asked. but would like to not lose the subthread earlier : diana_coman mircea_popescu : is short-term plan to test ffaistic diana_coman-r-m ? and if so, what glue is needed for this from asciilifeform , i'ma bake.
(trilema) asciilifeform: i'd expect that it would cost 1 or 2 diana_coman-days to glue ch14 ffa to euloratron, to see how performs using diana_coman's existing m-r etc.
(trilema) diana_coman: asciilifeform, sometimes I wonder what exactly do you think you need/don't have to move to Romania or wherever else you consider it to be "paradise, can now do just ffa/trb/..."
(trilema) diana_coman: asciilifeform, re m-r: I implemented it using mpi as per http://ossasepia.com/2017/12/28/eucrypt-chapter-3-miller-rabin-implementation/ ; ofc I'd rather use ffa ct-time implementation but it's not a sticking point per se i.e. I can switch my implementation from relying on mpi to relying on ffa, no?
(trilema) asciilifeform: ( i.e. one would have to put in mircea_popescu's specced exponent bitness where 'Bitness' is in http://www.loper-os.org/pub/ffa/hypertext/ch14/fz_modex__adb.htm#85_14 , to get the speedup )
(trilema) diana_coman: asciilifeform, thing is: from eucrypt and eulora pov, mpi is used for "big num arithmetics" only so I CAN in fact switch to ffa even without ct-time miller-rabin esp if ffa turns out to be...faster than mpi
(trilema) diana_coman: and yes, I'm eating up ffa with an eye on "maybe I can finally get rid of MPI!!"
(trilema) asciilifeform: the 1 application where ffa defo dunwork, and koch -- does, is phuctor.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: esp because correctly written, with tests etc. so can meaningfully do ffa-eucrypt vs mpi-eucrypt as a benchmark.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: right. a mpi-eucrypt vs ffa-eucrypt head-on will be interesting to see.
(trilema) asciilifeform: also recall the (surprising to asciilifeform , but apparently nobody else) discovery that ffatron as-is-stands is ~2.5x faster than koch.
(trilema) asciilifeform: it needs an entirely other item ( which can be sewn from ffa parts, but has not been of yet )
(trilema) asciilifeform: since we're refreshing chalkboards in war room, i'ma take the chance to summarize current level of ffaism. currently exponentiator is mature ( aside from the consideration where http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-28#1883687 , i.e. it's mature when ~other~ thinkingpeople have fit it into head and concurred ) -- i.e. runs fast enuff for many battlefield applications
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2018-11-16 23:13 asciilifeform: it is on hold pending resolution of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-26#1866266 ( and is taking back seat to ffa currently )
(trilema) mircea_popescu: this about concludes the state of affairs ; i'd like nothing more than corrections, disputations &c by they involved.
(trilema) asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: funnily enuff, i've found myself using ffacalc itself, on many occasions when prev would've used python or bc etc
(trilema) asciilifeform trimmed iron stash down to 2 'alphas', 1 runs barbaric 'tru64' (for that bolix emulator), 1 nao set up for 'ffa on arch that aint x64 or arm' tests laters
(trilema) asciilifeform: as i've said previously, ffa post-ch6 is largely an 'uglification' to buy usable performance on pc.
(trilema) diana_coman: if nitpick at all, the one thing that consistently nags at me (though for which I can't make up my mind as to actual solution) is the implicit reliance on indices to be in fact starting from 1 when copying stuff e.g. http://btcbase.org/patches/ffa_ch7_turbo_egyptians.kv#L187
(trilema) asciilifeform: ftr i very much appreciate all nitpicks, even purely stylistic ones, an explicit objective of ffa is to be not only bug-free but entirely clean of sharp edges, to the extent possible on the available irons.
(trilema) asciilifeform: currently yer the champ in ffaology.
(trilema) diana_coman: asciilifeform, phf updated with my sigs for FFA ch7 and ch8: http://ossasepia.com/reference-code-shelf/#selection-627.0-665.43
(trilema) diana_coman: asciilifeform, you broke all your links on your www to FFA code on btcbase when you changed the name of vpatches because of keccak vs sha: e.g. btcbase.org/patches/ffa_ch7_turbo_egyptians/tree/ffa/ffacalc/cmdline.ads#L42 in Ch8 404s now because no ".kv"
(trilema) asciilifeform: thus far i've found that ffa speed is almost exact function of cpu clock (for given bitness of cpu)
(trilema) asciilifeform: the other thing, if one is writing a proggy where only 1 ffawidth is used, it is possible to unroll all of the loops, derecursivize karatsuba, etc. and get straight line of instructions
(trilema) diana_coman: that's precisely why the slow pace - I need a bit of fresher mind to get back and read through the rest of ffa
(trilema) asciilifeform: ( the key work for diana_coman et al, from ffaology pov, is to eat the proofs )
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2017-10-08 00:20 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-07#1722411 << 1 ) ffa is closed form. i.e. it CAN be written as a number of nand gates, with a 'funnel' at the top, to which you present a,b,c, e.g. 4096bit, numbers, and at the bottom in a little cup you get a^b mod c , and with NO UPWARDS FEEDBACK FLOW of information , i.e. answer comes after same interval of time always, and with strictly downwards signals.
(trilema) feedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/12/stanislav-datskovskiy-publishes-fully-constant-time-code-for-barretts-modular-reduction-as-part-of-ffa-library/ << Qntra -- Stanislav Datskovskiy Publishes Fully Constant Time Code For Barrett's Modular Reduction As Part Of FFA Library
(trilema) asciilifeform: !A V[FFA Ver: ]#
(trilema) pehbot: asciilifeform: FFA Ver: 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000FF
(trilema) pehbot: asciilifeform: FFACalc Ver: 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000FF
(trilema) asciilifeform: !A V_[FFACalc Ver: ]#
(trilema) asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if someone knows how to make ffa moar 'docs is the program'-y, oughta write in and tell asciilifeform , cuz i came as close to it as i knew how.
(trilema) asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: upper bounds can be known in advance . ( in ffadom, at least. ) in larger meta-heuristics, naturally cannot be ~known~, but can be estimated.
(trilema) asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: phunphakt, since last night , massive uptick in heathens visiting ffa www, even curl'ing patches. but so far none have the balls to speak up.
(trilema) asciilifeform: ( and incidentally if you disable the bounds checks, having been satisfied with the proofs, ffa speeds up by another 2x 'for phree' )
(trilema) asciilifeform: but i expect ffa-cum-asmism will still beat shit out of koch-cum-asmism
(trilema) asciilifeform: incidentally, it's a 'fair fight', i.e. both ch14 ffa and mpi-koch lack asmism
(trilema) asciilifeform: meanwhile: $ wc -l libffa/* >> 4559 total ; $ wc -l ffacalc/* >> 1226 total .
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2018-11-16 23:13 asciilifeform: it is on hold pending resolution of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-26#1866266 ( and is taking back seat to ffa currently )
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2018-12-22 17:25 diana_coman: asciilifeform, phf I've signed and mirrored ch6 of ffa: http://ossasepia.com/reference-code-shelf/#selection-603.0-617.46
(trilema) asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-24#1882931 << fwliw i have a 90+% written node-and-tx-hunter with wwwistic frontend etc. but it is currently on shelf, taking back seat to ffa
(trilema) diana_coman: asciilifeform, phf I've signed and mirrored ch6 of ffa: http://ossasepia.com/reference-code-shelf/#selection-603.0-617.46
(trilema) diana_coman is impressed with asciilifeform's lolcat skillz in latest ffa proof :D
(trilema) asciilifeform: it is very easy to produce tests like this, cuz ffa tapes can (elementarily) print ffa tapes. ( this is essential, is how e.g. key genning worx )
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2018-12-22 00:29 asciilifeform: on proper (i.e. constanttimeistic iron mul) irons, 'uniform' and 'slid' test vectors will give same (to within timer jitter) runtimes when fed to ffa (of either ch13 or ch14 variety.)
(trilema) asciilifeform: on proper (i.e. constanttimeistic iron mul) irons, 'uniform' and 'slid' test vectors will give same (to within timer jitter) runtimes when fed to ffa (of either ch13 or ch14 variety.)
(trilema) asciilifeform in other noose, generating coupla 10k test vectors for ffa ch14b. theory is great, and 'test can reveal presence of bugs but not absence'(tm)(r), but imho gotta have these
(trilema) asciilifeform: intel did 'even better', by rolling the field back to ~before time of babbage~, who, recall, managed to eat ~20% of brit empire budget simply on promise of baking ~log table~ without eggogs ( and , arguably in a kind of 19th c. bolix affair, succeeded but overran cost to death )
(trilema) asciilifeform: i'm at the point in the affair where i got specific physical q's , the answers to which will enable nondestructive probing of the handful of samples i got.
(trilema) asciilifeform: phf: i aint in particular hurry ( possibly unlike mircea_popescu , who wants to emphasize the imho important larger point ). i won't even have time to properly touch the thing until finished ffa. but plz consider what i suggested today.
(trilema) asciilifeform: errything i need is theoretically already in that beige box on the dissection table. if i get same thing from 'anon informant', will make affair go faster, to same output.
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2018-12-16 19:15 mircea_popescu: and more generally, if it's a "oh, #trilema is item #608 on my list of 1850 vaguely maybe interesting items i found on the internet, among which i read to pass the time waiting for the bus or w/e" sorta affair forget about it altogether, there's 0 interest in supporting that kinda imbecility/pluralism/skepticism.
(trilema) asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu or anybody else finds a 'clever' in ffa, plox to ping asciilifeform asap so it can be burned out with hot irons.
(trilema) asciilifeform: ( user porting ffa to new irons is expected to run the litmus )
(trilema) asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-18#1881458 << this is known bug in my ver of mircea_popescu's script, i'ma fix it , but 1st priority is ffaism currently
(trilema) asciilifeform: i'm sadly in a pile of saecular shit atm, and on top of that behind sched in ffa. so will be slow.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: and more generally, if it's a "oh, #trilema is item #608 on my list of 1850 vaguely maybe interesting items i found on the internet, among which i read to pass the time waiting for the bus or w/e" sorta affair forget about it altogether, there's 0 interest in supporting that kinda imbecility/pluralism/skepticism.
(trilema) asciilifeform: what i could really use is some PAL/GAL src. if ever turns up. will make the affair go 9000x quicker.
(trilema) asciilifeform: ( ffa is not threaded per se, but is thread-safe, dun allocate anyffing other than on stack, i.e. can be used inside a thread safely )
(trilema) asciilifeform: juliankunkel: as a maths fella, you may also find 'ffa' ( asciilifeform's current item, http://www.loper-os.org/?cat=49 ) interesting, world's only sidechannelism-proof crypto lib, ~80% done
(trilema) asciilifeform: sometimes abstract work is done by kamikazes who do it from principle, at the expense of sleep and walks in park, the way asciilifeform bakes e.g. ffa. but in general yes , it simply dun happen because nobody pays.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: ple" symbol in that "more people get involved" does NOT denote ~actual~ people. it denotes the sort of people who need a computer to think for them in order to participate in intellectual affairs. ie, NON!!!!-people!
(trilema) asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: fortunately i dun have any complex subexpressions in exponents anywhere in ffa notebook.
(trilema) asciilifeform: i refuse to use bitmaps for the matholade in ffa, cuz retarded ( not searchable + looks like shit on 3 out of 4 people's displays no matter what you do )
(trilema) asciilifeform: nah it's moar of a 'planet x' affair.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: "in the end" ffa is a piece of shit, because events from star date 78987.4
(trilema) asciilifeform: ( starting with ch12 all ffa tested strictly on ave1's gnat )
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