asciilifeform: 'the Italian school of algebraic geometry, which produced extremely good and deep results for some 50 years, but then went to pieces. There are 3 key names here -- Castelnuovo, Enriques and Severi. C was earliest and was totally rigorous, a splendid mathematician. E came next and, as far as I know, never published anything that was false, though he openly acknowledged that some of his proofs didn't cover every possible case (there w
asciilifeform: ere often special highly singular cases which later turned out to be central to understanding a situation). He used to talk about posing "critical doubts". He had his own standards and was happy to reexamine a "proof" and make it more nearly complete. Unfortunately Severi, the last in the line, a fascist with a dictatorial temperament, really killed the whole school because, although he started off with brilliant and correct discove
asciilifeform: ries, later published books full of garbage (this was in the 30's and 40's). The rest of the world was uncertain what had been proven and what not. He gave a keynote speech at the first Int Congress after the war in 1950, but his mistakes were becoming clearer and clearer. It took the efforts of 2 great men, Zariski and Weil, to clean up the mess in the 40's and 50's although dredging this morass for its correct results continues occ
asciilifeform: asionally to this day.'
lobbesbot: BingoBoingo: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aha!
feedbot: http://ossasepia.com/2018/12/19/a-week-in-tmsr-26-november-2-december-2018/ << Ossasepia -- A Week in TMSR: 26 November - 2 December 2018
diana_coman: awww, Mocky
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, http://ossasepia.com/2018/12/19/a-week-in-tmsr-26-november-2-december-2018/#selection-203.342-203.479
mircea_popescu: http://ossasepia.com/2018/12/19/a-week-in-tmsr-26-november-2-december-2018/#selection-41.1060-41.1073 << lol, it didn't occur to me it went vicious.
mircea_popescu: i mean, the point re "do not turn signal processor into state machine nor your wire into a cable" seems both time honored and uncontroversial.
diana_coman: yes, but going from vdiff to "being smart" of people sounds rather vicious to me
mircea_popescu: now ima have to re-read that thing.
diana_coman: good - my re-reading makes for re-reading :D
asciilifeform: diana_coman: pretty detailed summaries!
diana_coman: ftr I don't mean it in the sense that anyone in there got attacked; simply in the sense that it started from something and ended up in an entirely (if totally valid!) different place
diana_coman: not unusual for conversations in #trilema either
diana_coman: asciilifeform, hm, that sounds...dubious for a summary! but thanks!
asciilifeform: no, i like
mircea_popescu: i think maybe the problem is that we omitted " around the smart, though the intention transparently is "smart as understood by mainstream idiots".
asciilifeform: (picture if these existed for whole thing!)
mircea_popescu: part of the problem being that we traditionally use " to render pantsuit nonsense, and i suppose it ended up coloring the quotes or something.
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, ah, that makes sense, yes
diana_coman: asciilifeform, well, someone has to make them for them to exist at all! and yeah, this one is significantly longer and also took a couple of hours more; I suspect the longer I go back the longer it will take because more recent ones have the advantage of being relatively fresh in my mind - I keep up with the log throughout the day to some extent anyway
mircea_popescu: see, because it's evidently ~the exact opposite~ of the traditional definition of smart, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-09#1870361 like. ie, republican notion of smartness is http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-18#1863577 whereas what happens here is that something is faux-simplified at massive cost.
a111: Logged on 2018-11-09 09:02 Mocky: of course 'smart toasting' was the opposite of smart
a111: Logged on 2018-10-18 18:57 mircea_popescu: which i stand behind, ftr ; and it is also what informs the "if they had any sense -- they'd be here" stance. the fact that rando can't cut through fetlife to find the meat / can't cut through internet to find trilema / can't cut through femstate to find bitcoin / can't cut through pantsuitism to find republic etc specifically means that rando is dull, ie, not smart.
mircea_popescu: "how about you don't have to keep an empty diff around and in exchange get a stated diff" is exactly like "how about you no longer have to check oil in car and instead have to hitch rides on highway"
diana_coman: yes; that's the sense of smart in there, sure; does it seem different from the summary or what?
mircea_popescu: diana_coman you're very likely right, i expect a major stone on nicole's back was precisely this : man re-reading has to reconstruct a cognitive structure. cost of this is 0 for man who's been reading and has it pre-built ; cost is small for man who lost it, but was there and knows how to build it. cost is immense for man that tries to learn how to build at the same time as building.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman "in there" where ?
diana_coman: in the original discussion in the logs; my q is whether the summary seems to miss the point somehow/convey a different "smart" ?
mircea_popescu: i think the summary takes smart as a neutral symbol, whereas in the logs it was used as a very overloaded symbol.
diana_coman: hm, I did not read it as a neutral symbol, hence my "" for it; but I don't really know how to convey more clearly that it's the opposite of actual smart (other than either explicitly noting that or using the "" that seems to fail to work)
mircea_popescu: well now i gotta re-read the summary :)
mircea_popescu: honestly, i think you have it. the quotes are there, the discussion is here, he who reads understands.
mircea_popescu: i think what ~really~ happened was term vicious switched parser into interpreting ~your~ quotes as neutral (she's taking from the log) whereas they were in fact overloaded (she's using them to convey faux smart tone on being smart).
mircea_popescu: the disadvantages of natural language.
mircea_popescu: specifically : all communication relies on trees ; the presence, the order, ~and absence~ are all meaningful, and meaning is extracted from communication by adding and removing from a mind-held space of possibilities according to what is said, in what order it is said, ~and what is not said~. because certain absences, just as certain ordering, deny certain possible meanings just as well as if they were denied explicitly.
mircea_popescu: natural language, however, ablates the trees for "convenience" so to speak, ie, uses commonly what's known in computing as sparse trees.
mircea_popescu: this sometimes conflicts with the decoding process.
asciilifeform just this morning finished the 'space' proof of 14b, also grappled with 'meaning imposed by unsaid'
mircea_popescu: it is definitely there. but then again you can't, practically, neither emit orally a Titem array nor forbid people to think of large arrays.
asciilifeform: titem ?
mircea_popescu: like Tbyte
mircea_popescu: also why bureaucratic language becomes such a laughingstock (aka, "limba de lemn") the ~better~ it gets : it takes this devil's hand, and makes the trade, accepts narrower domain for better specificity.
mircea_popescu: the fundamental difference between my harem, which is fun, and army service, which is and can be anything but fun, is that the girls ~don't~ know what all there is, bad or good, nor how to say it. not everything's a list, not everything's a procedure, the scary butts its head in almost daily. but what can you do.
diana_coman: I can also add that doing those summaries is useful in cementing my previous idea that they really have to be done manually - there's no way to link the various bits and pieces correctly without actually understanding the content; even with pointers from one line to another, even with some set of terms and definitions , it would still likely fail
mircea_popescu: diana_coman and yet google "built ai" which "won at go".
asciilifeform: lol by same token kraft co. 'won at cheese'
mircea_popescu: (i will propose go "with a general adversary", glory-hole go so to speak, is about on the complexity level of log summarizing, +- constant)
diana_coman: I'm sure it can also fully and without problems "summarize" the twitter twatter
mircea_popescu: diana_coman welcome to the horror of all time : a lot of shit to summarize, specifically driven by and existing specifically because previous efforts at summarizing.
mircea_popescu: as general compression theory predicts, it is ~extremely hard to summarize~.
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-19#1881688 << and here I thought a large part of the republic was to reveal one's inner idjit. worked for trinque.
a111: Logged on 2018-12-19 16:47 diana_coman: awww, Mocky
diana_coman can picture the summaries of the summaries
diana_coman also hopes Mocky does come back!
feedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/12/trump-foundation-de-kulakized-in-new-york/ << Qntra -- Trump Foundation De-Kulakized In New York
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: key lolgem being 'Directing the Foundation to cooperate with the Attorney General in the distribution of any remaining assets to qualified charitable entities...'
asciilifeform: meanwhile clitler 'foundation' happily hums along
BingoBoingo: AHA, De-kulakized
BingoBoingo: New York, once again stealing stealing from
mircea_popescu: "nd resulted in the misuse of charitable assets for the benefit of Donald J. Trump ("Mr. ("Trump") Trump" and his personal, political and/or business interests. In sum, the Investigation revealed that the Foundation was little more than a checkbook for payments to not-for-profits from Mr. Trump or the Trump Organization." << i don't get it... so was it used for his benefit or at his cost ?
mircea_popescu: ie, do they object money was flowing into trump or that it was flowing out of trump ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they object that he ( like other moneyed folx , and exactly like clitler et al ) tried to create tax fort for his heirs. nao heirs will get 0, and pantsuit 100%.
mircea_popescu: well, considering who those "heirs" are...
asciilifeform: seen from asciilifeform's lens, episode is part of the larger 'kick dog till it bites, then shoot it' campaign of pantsuit
asciilifeform: 'we dare you to do something about this so can impeach'
mircea_popescu: was there any actual money at stake ?
mircea_popescu: seems to me a rather pompous case of "oh, you used this room to funnel moneys to charities dedicated to hanging fat old black women rather than feeding hobos ? WE TAKE THE CHAIRS!!!"
asciilifeform: piece claims at least '6mil'
mircea_popescu: well then that's no fort.
mircea_popescu: wrong prefix.
asciilifeform: well that's on 1 particular intake
mircea_popescu: yeah, but the sort of reports they make, that 6mn is ~40k
asciilifeform: doesn't say what total net from dekulakization, no
mircea_popescu: where's that log link of yours re the weighing of contraband ? "this car had roach in dash so we captured car's weight of marijuana" ?
asciilifeform: from other heathendom prattle, even smaller figure, e.g. cnn's 'The foundation's most recent tax return listed its net assets at slightly more than $1.7 million.'
mircea_popescu: that's a tax return.
mircea_popescu: ie, at best accurate as to q4 2017
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that link was re lsd, where http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-21#1828187
a111: Logged on 2018-06-21 16:51 asciilifeform: ( sorta how you see sentences for '10kg of lsd', which has never existed and probably will never exist on planet earth; they weigh whatever reagents, incl water )
mircea_popescu: if not 2016, yo ucan generally skip one.
mircea_popescu: (i suspecvt 2016 on the basis of "most recent", otherwise "it's 2017 tax return", "its last year's tax return" etc.)
mircea_popescu: ie, rather than your interpretation above, i see it as a "in 2016, trump won election, 5979th item on his agenda was how apparently state of new york decided to "investigate" some foundation. he shook his hand and moved on, two years later the morons finally got something to flash in media, and precisely nothing else, even locating where the chairs are anymore is impossible)
mircea_popescu: i expect there's in excess of a million "dormant", ie, entirely abandoned such legal entities in the state of new york. i further expect their paper assets exceed a billion.
mircea_popescu: wanna go treasure hunting through the streets of brooklyn, looking for the missing billion ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: so hypothesis then is that it was ablative coating on rocket of actual trumpfoundation?
asciilifeform: or that there aint an 'actual' ? which
mircea_popescu: people with money make these ~regular basis. sorta how you buy sheets of paper.
mircea_popescu: "maybe, one day, want to write on".
asciilifeform: i.e. 'so they stole empty suitcase, whatevers' ?
mircea_popescu: sometimes, you open a drawer and dscover rats ate some paper. not commonly at your residence, but you're only one and there's many residences. and warehouses. and so on.
asciilifeform actually has enuff places with doors that this has happened.
mircea_popescu: yes, that's my reading. "a suitcase claimed to have carried trump's clothes at so point no closer than two years ago, having been encountered by a hobolice officer, was now officially transferred into state coffers".
mircea_popescu: "the price on 5th avenue of such a suitcase (or a similar one, as close as could be found) new is a little more than 1.7 dubaloos. thereforee..."
asciilifeform: make sense.
asciilifeform: i can't picture a 'full suitcase' of d00d's, containing small change.
mircea_popescu: well, he's regularly bankrupt. maybe he dun it again.
mircea_popescu: nfi, i don't watch this so closely. but on the strength of data presented...
mircea_popescu: didn't he own a tower in buenos aires and shit like that ? wtf million.
mircea_popescu: he can make more selling the copper wiring.
asciilifeform: for all i know, he owns 11 towers and owes 9000.
BingoBoingo: He recently put up a tower in Punta Del Este
mircea_popescu: hey, he publishes as much data as usg.
mircea_popescu: which also, owns 11 littoral combat ships, owes > 9000
asciilifeform: diff is that when trump dies, clitler will collect the 11. whereas usg's 9000 owed needs martians to land to collect.
mircea_popescu: haha, forget about it. clinton's career is deader than disco. she's gone to join her paramour, condolezza rice.
asciilifeform: lol the broader clitler, not the spent muppet
mircea_popescu: except she was a pretty smart white girl, rather than an ugly stupid black girl.
mircea_popescu: but, in this world, one generally gets what one wants.
asciilifeform: ( tho supposedly the muppet is in the shop gettin' tyre patches, and will be re-used somehow in next cycle )
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> ie, do they object money was flowing into trump or that it was flowing out of trump ? << US folks set these things up and set the to keep warm. If the kids don't fuck him at the end of life thing gets filled and kid gets to draw a salary and "philanderanthropist" job title on their CV
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you mean "the broader clitler" as in literal cockroaches and assorted vermin ?
mircea_popescu: yes well. if actuarial science teaches anyhing, it's that it is likely the dullest son who inherits.
mircea_popescu: kinda why inheritance is such a suspect device in the first place.
asciilifeform: it's sorta like those old women with 100 cats, you can already tell that the beasts are foretasting what her face will taste like
asciilifeform: ( it is apparently known that cats eat face 1st. why, i do not know )
asciilifeform: wb Mocky
Mocky: thx asciilifeform
diana_coman: wb Mocky!
mircea_popescu: Mocky did yo uget butthurt at something she said that i've not got to read eyt ?
Mocky: lol no
Mocky: just read the summary, got a chuckle. 'tis tru!
diana_coman: cool then!
mircea_popescu: honestly i don't think we have nearly enough drama. a serious project would have more drama.
Mocky: fuck you mircea_popescu !
mircea_popescu: eh, get a passport first.
Mocky: that's all i got
mircea_popescu: you mean, "all i got -- is a passport" or you mean "all i got -- is fuck you mp!" ?
mircea_popescu: BECAUSE IT COULD BE EITHER WAY
Mocky: comfort with ambiguity
Mocky: i have an interview over video momentarily
mircea_popescu: diana_coman http://ossasepia.com/2018/12/19/a-week-in-tmsr-26-november-2-december-2018/#selection-105.764-105.817 << actually, a major bomb was dropped there, wherein long standing trb-immunity was revoked.
mircea_popescu: got asciilifeform all sorts of salivating.
asciilifeform: eh would've 'salivated' in 2016
asciilifeform: today 'hrm, moar work...'
mircea_popescu: which probably explains why wasn't in 2016.
asciilifeform: it's troo
mircea_popescu: meanwhile i give you "the concept of bdsm" : http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/pK5Ax/?raw=true
mircea_popescu: pro tip : this thing exists specifically as an umbrela term of irreducible reality. it was made as such and deliberately, by people from the 70s.
mircea_popescu: now these fucktards go about with a unified view of "the thing specifically declared as unifiable".
mircea_popescu: if there's anything in the world more insulting than the passage of time i can scarcely imagine what the fuck it'd be. but i suspect i know how moses feels every time danielpbarron quotes the bible : exactly how i feel every time one of these inconsequential schmucklettes discuss "the concept of bdsm".
mircea_popescu: "religious" folk are ~really fucking lucky~ no gods exist.
mircea_popescu: "Mircea Popescu validates Mocky's feelings on this matter. " ahahahah
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform http://ossasepia.com/2018/12/19/a-week-in-tmsr-26-november-2-december-2018/comment-page-1/#comment-4615 << 2nd part prolly of interest.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not visible yet ?
mircea_popescu: no ?!
mircea_popescu: i see it ; buyt possibly went to modqueue because linked ave's thing
diana_coman: try it now asciilifeform
asciilifeform: now yes
diana_coman: and yes, it was in modqueue because of link
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: yea iirc i did say 'cannot resolve w/out timemachine' heh
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: puzzlers like those, make e.g. bolix look trivial ( consider, bolix physically exists and is sitting in asciilifeform's tortureroom , whereas beria et al's docs were afaik carefully burned )
asciilifeform: while on subj of bolix : no reply so far to http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-18#1881357 , it loox like they will have to be reversed the hard,long,painful way
a111: Logged on 2018-12-18 13:14 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-18#1881345 << already replied that he got'em on paper, but in treasure chest on wrong coast ( he moved to west. ) i answered with offer to pay his flight to get'em plus what to make it worth his while. no answ to this just yet.
asciilifeform: and i have nfi currently how to even approach the antifuse 'actel a1010a', antifuses aint even visible under electron micro. prolly will have to be inferred logically.
asciilifeform: ( by all indications , that thing substituted for the http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-28#1875841 item on earlier 'ivories' )
a111: Logged on 2018-11-28 19:44 asciilifeform: !Q later tell phf turns out i was wrong re the rom, the rom-shaped object is actually a 1980s 'programmable event timer' thingie, am2971adc
asciilifeform: re dks, it wouldn't strongly surprise asciilifeform to learn that d00d finally read the l0gz, and got wind of what asciilifeform wants the PALs for, and now 'silent like partizan'
asciilifeform: phf i'm pretty curious how you got the fella to spill.
asciilifeform: it clearly aint purely about spending dough at his little shop of horrors, i spent to date north of 10k orcbux, if added up
asciilifeform: some of the PALs can prolly also be inferred logically, half of'em are clearly address decoders for the ram
asciilifeform: aaand i'm still quite curious what the answer to http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-18#1881616 !
a111: Logged on 2018-12-18 22:40 asciilifeform: phf srsly what gives ? wai not just post the uncensored dump. dks certainly aint coming to moscow to shit in your air conditioner.
asciilifeform: in other archaeologies, https://archive.is/vOHNY#selection-305.153-305.267 suggests that stock bolix PALs are readable.
asciilifeform not tried yet, has chinese PAL burner but not yet tested with parts of the specific types found in the box, and has sent for typical period PALs from chinese, will 1st test with ~these~ prior to pulling the precious unobtainium
asciilifeform: if they turn out to be readable, i'ma simply copy'em all and emplace the copies instead of the orig, which are already approaching their rated theoretical life.
mircea_popescu: i suspect "we can fix your pals" would be mega business. if, of course, bolix prices weren't utter bs, and if, of course, anyone wanted them ~for an actual purpose~. neither of which...
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: believe or not, the arcade machine people .
asciilifeform: they do this biz.
mircea_popescu: a right.
asciilifeform: but they won't touch 'stateful' PALs, ordinary bruteforce dunwork on these.
mircea_popescu: sspeaking of which -- i wanted to play pinball. girls went all over town. no pinball machine exists in a costa rican arcade.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: actual mechanical pinballtrons are rare nao, the last maker closed doors ~decade ago iirc
mircea_popescu: yeah well.
mircea_popescu: unactual, i have no use for tards, can use my box.
asciilifeform: lol you bought a pinball ?!
mircea_popescu: no shortage of emulators. if you're gonna emulate, ima emulate atop my computer not atop some idiot's alarm clock
asciilifeform: aa aaaa
asciilifeform: there aren't, afaik, that many folx who go to arcades nao, other than from nostalgia for childhood
asciilifeform: i knew fella who actually bought vintage machines, installed in own house.
mircea_popescu: not even specific nostalgia. people go to museums not strictly because "oh, i recall my childhood of bering spartan!!!"
mircea_popescu: but the 3k year old crypto is still interesting
mircea_popescu: there's a certain carnality of existence. unlike the ghoistly quality of emulation, imagination, etc.
asciilifeform: the u.s. airplane museum actually has a nifty arcade, with the type of flight sim where one straps in and physically turns upside-down, etc
asciilifeform: ~fiddybux/fivemin tho
asciilifeform: ( and even despite this, queue for hours )
mircea_popescu: i suppose older writers told it in terms of "the shame", "l'embarass". obects that exist have to populate the whole array ; whereas objects that do not exist get away with natural-language sparse existence
mircea_popescu: whether the "spurious" set bits are shameful or on the contrary, soothing, depends i suppose on the mental age of the observer.
mircea_popescu: people born in prehistory don't have access to the future.
asciilifeform: re 'carnality of non-emulated', dark seekrit re http://www.loper-os.org/?p=51 -- asciilifeform , turned out, did not actually like the classic bolix kbd/mouse. in particular it was made before arrow keys invented...
asciilifeform: ( the crt, strangely, was great, and peculiarly un-1980s-flavoured, despite 'soviet' appearance when switched off -- http://www.loper-os.org/?p=52 << they had the glass custom-blown and thing actually displayed razor-sharp 1024x768
asciilifeform: weighed ~40kg tho, and fragile as hell, kinda glad to be rid of it and that current box outputs vga
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-19#1881853 << i was the only person who showed up to do dull, manual job, when there was a need for it. i can't leak it because i promised not to. there will be no consequences for me, but i made a promise to multiple people, for whom there might be consequences, and it's not my place to evaluate whether that's true or not. that said that doesn't mean that i can't use knowledge this way acquired to help
a111: Logged on 2018-12-19 18:26 asciilifeform: phf i'm pretty curious how you got the fella to spill.
phf: you. you'll just have to trust me that i'm not intentionally hiding things from you, but making honest effort to see what relevant bits are available.
asciilifeform: phf: so what was it, you promised 'i'ma only leak the bits re ivory' ?
phf: asciilifeform: no, none of the documents i have can end up on the internet in their current form
mircea_popescu: phf this is the republic not the guardian ; there's no yellow dots.
asciilifeform: phf: also feel free to pgp to asciilifeform , i dun even mind to promise that strictly the clone will end up on the net.
phf: mircea_popescu: what do you mean?
phf: oh oh english Guardian
asciilifeform: phf: will be e.g. 'anonymous informant gave me pinout, and so here it is in .txt form..'
mircea_popescu: phf the yellow dots is specifically a reference to http://qntra.net/2017/06/reality-winner-arrested-for-leaking-to-omidyar-and-greenwalds-fake-qntra/
mircea_popescu: it can not be the case that you are the only one holding whatever useles, worthless moth ridden crapola.
mircea_popescu: it therefore can not be the case that you can be uniquely identified as responsible for the leak.
mircea_popescu: in short, you're doing a danielpbarron, and it's going to go exactly as well as his.
mircea_popescu: you ~wanna~ stick with whatever "multiple people", please go right ahead, and right now.
phf: i see
mircea_popescu: i will replace whatever btcbase.
mircea_popescu: i am however NOT dealing with people who have your sort of committment outlay.
asciilifeform: кто не с нами тот против нас!
phf: so i'm not trusted at all?
mircea_popescu: you are trusted for as long as you behave in the trustworthy manner.
mircea_popescu: when you say "x > republic", you forfeit whatever trust you might have had.
asciilifeform: phf: i'd much rather do this wurk ~with~ phf, than without. could make coupla yrs of diff. but gotta understand what 'with' constitutes.
mircea_popescu: it makes exactly zero difference what peculiar form of "fatherinlaw/god/whatever" the x takes.
asciilifeform: phf: if you have 'friend stuck behind nazi lines will lose head if it comes out that he gave me docs', there are ways to work around this.
asciilifeform: which is what mircea_popescu was referring to re 'dots'.
asciilifeform: it aint as if we were 1st set of folx in history to face this puzzler.
asciilifeform: phf: iirc you 1st mentioned these goodies 1y + month ago...
asciilifeform: i put in the table stakes, bought the box. nao logically 'hey l1 people, got anyffing i oughta know?'
phf: my approach to this is to find compromise, i've volunteered all the information i've volunteered so far. i'm making a point that whatever asciilifeform might need for his work i can communicate to him. is this approach not acceptable? it seems that i'm just being pressured into dumping a dump of unknown quality and state, that might or might not help
asciilifeform: phf: if dump weighs TB and (apparently) after whole year phf still not eaten it, might make sense to pgp to asciilifeform . i'ma not post the raw docs and their yellowdots.
mircea_popescu: phf i expect the accumulated value of the whole pile of "secrets" is about 0. and i further expect the entire value of the whole bolix stack neatly approximates the value of my stock of pogos.
phf: asciilifeform: there was no concrete goal until last week, when you decided to buy a macivory
asciilifeform: and phf's friend радистка Кет can keep her head attached.
mircea_popescu: the discussion here in no way revolves the value, extant imagined or presumed of some idiots caches.
mircea_popescu: the discussion here revolves around your attempt to introduce some kind of superior consideration, and im telling you neatly that if you think in this way there is not now nor will ever be in the future a place for you here.
phf: mircea_popescu: i made that point in logs multiple times, having had a chance to look at a variety "gold chests"
mircea_popescu: and consequently, rather than discover this fundamental truth later, discover it now, and save your own time/
asciilifeform: phf: even material that doesn't ~directly~ relate to subj, can be of use, e.g. what they burned PALs with, etc
a111: Logged on 2018-12-16 19:15 mircea_popescu: and more generally, if it's a "oh, #trilema is item #608 on my list of 1850 vaguely maybe interesting items i found on the internet, among which i read to pass the time waiting for the bus or w/e" sorta affair forget about it altogether, there's 0 interest in supporting that kinda imbecility/pluralism/skepticism.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: indeed dirt is just dirt, prior to excavating troy from it.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i am aware you think it valuable, and i have no problem with that, your business, how your lab works, enjoy.
mircea_popescu: i don't happen to agree, is all, but this with no prejudice.
phf: mircea_popescu: so the principle is that any obligation outside of the republic is not only invalid, but actually anti republic? there can be no compromise on this point.
phf: the last sentence above is a question
phf: also just to clarify the choice presented to me is either i'm leaking the dump, or i'm out?
mircea_popescu: any obligation outside the republic is invalid ; any obligation that conflicts with republican work is anti-republic. this is some discovery ?
mircea_popescu: the very substance of http://trilema.com/2015/heres-what-they-dont-tell-you-when-they-bring-you-those-papers-to-sign/ is ~specifically~ DO NOT MAKE saeculum promises, it will bar you from republican life.
mircea_popescu: as it did bar that scmuck ; so will it bar all in the future.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: to expand on the 'why even do this' item, from asciilifeform's pov it's entirely a http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-18#1881419 case
a111: Logged on 2018-12-18 15:12 mircea_popescu: to write about divinity interestingly, one needs to be aware of a ~shitload~ more stuff than is available at oklahoma public library, is the thing.
asciilifeform: ( and 99% of the case, is proving the case, ergo why i did not try an' ask mircea_popescu to buy box, cut it himself, etc )
asciilifeform: phf: we currently have FG not the least bit because in '16, mircea_popescu said to asciilifeform 'you are wasting my time, where is product' so asciilifeform took little vacation and , magic!, there it was. i dun regret this. consider maybe also vacation ?
asciilifeform: and i dun hold it against mircea_popescu , then or nao, it's a talent, this , holding folx to account re their 'i'ma X'.
asciilifeform: phf: note that you aren't being asked to send yer source to guillotine.
phf: asciilifeform: well not literally, but in this case the source will be trivially identifiable
phf: well, because i did all the manual work to scan the physical papers, there's litereally three people who have this dump
asciilifeform: for all anybody knows, i caught mallery and connected him to 220v and he spat it out
asciilifeform: or reti, or 1 of the tape hoarder idjits.
phf: i don't know how you missed my previous sentence, none of these people have "the dump", because there's no dump outside of the work i did.
asciilifeform: phf: i dun need to post 'the dump' with the bloody yellow dots.
asciilifeform: errything i need is theoretically already in that beige box on the dissection table. if i get same thing from 'anon informant', will make affair go faster, to same output.
asciilifeform: phf won't even be the 1st or only informant.
asciilifeform: ( there was another fella in the l0gz, for instance, not long ago, who sent in patches )
asciilifeform: phf: i for one have nfi how being in the position of schneier, sitting on the snowden stash, dun bother you any
asciilifeform: for what didja even scan the docs , if 'can never use this for anything' ?
phf: i took saeculum promises specifically to assist with republican work. i think that dumping this dump as is is short sighted, because the dump by weight is garbage, and will trivially identify all involved. i want to at least evaluate what's in it that can be of assistance to asciilifeform, an identification that became necessary only a week ago.
asciilifeform: phf: i aint proposing to put the thing on ftp as-is.
asciilifeform: phf: and wasn't 'week ago', but year + 3mo ago, when i took delivery of the 2 raw ivories.
asciilifeform: they've been sitting in their crate to no useful end.
asciilifeform: i do not know if phf's treasure chest could've spared me sending for the whole box, but it's conceivable
phf: asciilifeform: when i communicated with you, in private, about the dump in the past, your response was essentially "i'm not making any promises, i'm going to dump the whole thing on the internet", i've attempted to communicate to you that further value can be extracted from that relationship, if you're patient. your reaction to that was to start talking about whisperers etc. and then you come back with "i wonder how you got your hands
phf: on it?" is this not fucking contradictory. and now i'm basically in a position, where from your demands and impatience i'm presented with a choice "either do this or you're out"
asciilifeform: phf: i aint in particular hurry ( possibly unlike mircea_popescu , who wants to emphasize the imho important larger point ). i won't even have time to properly touch the thing until finished ffa. but plz consider what i suggested today.
mircea_popescu: im in no hurry either.
asciilifeform: if phf asks 'ok, but dun post the yellowdotted jpegs' i won't
mircea_popescu: i don't even care, past the (i'd have thought obvious) point whereby specific lines of argument simply can't be brought.
phf: asciilifeform: i don't know what you're proposing, because you haven't proposed anything. i've proposed that i go through the dump, find all the relevant bits to your project, and communicate them to you. this is apparently unacceptable
asciilifeform: i proposed gpg of raw material to asciilifeform .
asciilifeform: who will quickly find what, if any, of it relates to the specific q's asciilifeform is trying to answer.
asciilifeform can and has gone through 10,000 pgs of crapola in 1 weekend in the past.
asciilifeform: i'm at the point in the affair where i got specific physical q's , the answers to which will enable nondestructive probing of the handful of samples i got.
asciilifeform: nao, if phf thinks that asciilifeform cracking the case ~at all~ will 'unmask' phf's informant, this is a problem. chiefly for phf's informant, because i ~will~ rape bolix, whether anyone helps or not
asciilifeform: if not next year, then after.
phf: asciilifeform: there's this general position that what you're doing, you're doing to get yoursefl a running bolix clone, where's i'm just fucking around, which is bullshit. i'm doing the same thing, towards the same goals. it's not presently clear who's more successful. you basically want me to unilaterally fuck up my entire operation, because ~last week~ you bought a macivory.
asciilifeform: last yr. bought -- 2. nao makes for 3.
mircea_popescu: well so what, you must proceed in parallel cuz gods willed it ?
asciilifeform: phf: what part of your effort is public ? ( or would publishing 'fuck up operation', lol )
asciilifeform: consider how many folx previously went like phf, 'i'ma do it under me pillow lest it fuck up operation'
asciilifeform: how much this summed to ?
phf: asciilifeform: last year i made a bunch of scans, that were almost entirely duds, you were as insistent on a release as you are now. this would've prevented this year's scans, that are potentially more relevant to your work.
phf: you're constantly in logs, confused as to how anyone can get anything from anyone, yet now you're questioning my methods.
asciilifeform: phf: can haz hard bound for when i see anyffing ? cuz it was 'next weekend' 1yr+ ago.
asciilifeform: and i'd like to answer the larger q of whether phf even wants to see asciilifeform's thrust succeed.
asciilifeform: cuz from earlier line i am forming the impression that not
asciilifeform: that it'd 'fuck up my operation'
phf: asciilifeform: for fucks sake, this whole argument started with me basically going "i'm going to go over all that i have and find bits that are relevant to your current work"
asciilifeform: phf: why do you think that any of it is entirely irrelevant ?
asciilifeform: for all you know, some rubbish dks scribbled on a napkin in 1991 is the key.
phf: asciilifeform: because presumably we both can discriminate things, otherwise what is the point of my lordship?
asciilifeform: phf: sure. but appreciate asciilifeform's position. asciilifeform was expecting to see dirt yr+ ago.
asciilifeform: consider, what, next december we have same convo ?
phf: asciilifeform: you're reading selectively. _i_ was expecting to see dirt yr+ ago, there was none. it was totally a waste of work
asciilifeform: really waste ?
asciilifeform: plox to expand ?
asciilifeform: i dun have anyffing against phf , as such. i even forgave him the ~year of life i burned on cutting 'snap4' apart in 'ida' while phf knew where the sores was.
asciilifeform: but i'd like to see some of the promised dirt..
phf: asciilifeform: ok, you can't possibly fucking hold this against me. that was your private project, that you never communicated in the logs.
asciilifeform: sure did.
asciilifeform: we could have that thread again, and it will contain same pointers. but why waste space.
phf: as far as snap you've jumped to conclusions from an offhand remark, and you're holding on to it for dear life, like with everything else in this conversation.
asciilifeform: phf: try to picture yerself in that position.
phf: i don't know when i've learned about the source, it's on public github, i don't know if i've even seen you mention your snap4 work, or at which point i've forgotten it.
a111: Logged on 2014-03-01 03:56 asciilifeform: ;;google snap4 symbolics
a111: Logged on 2017-03-08 23:26 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i did describe earlier, having concluded a few yrs ago that it is cheaper, easier, moar pleasant, to cut appart 'snap4' emulator (i have a pc build here ~with debug symbols~, comes apart in ida nicely) than to suffer with nitric acid and electron microscope
asciilifeform: phf: thus far i cannot comment on your methods, given that they do not apparently include publishing anyffing bolix-related openly.
asciilifeform: but you know ~my~ methods.
phf: asciilifeform: i actually remember that one, but you'll have to trust me that my assumption on reading this was that you had debugging scaffolding in order to observe its operation, because reading layers of bolix<-alpha<-x86 code is not particularly enlightening. you've since acquired the source and clearly opted for electron microscope route.
asciilifeform: observe that http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-13#1824987 didn't yield, but asciilifeform did eventually pop the thing.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-13 16:48 phf: well, if we don't, i'll see if i can get an unlock through corporate channels, and just use it as a one off machine
asciilifeform: with ordinary sweat, no backroom deals.
asciilifeform: ( not that it did much good, but there it is on the shelf, popped... )
asciilifeform: phf: i'ma defo refer to the emulator when baking fpga clone, it has plenty of useful info re the instruction set
asciilifeform: just not quite enuff to run the orig soft stably.
asciilifeform: ( i.e. to bake a cycle-accurate copy of e.g. 'xl' )
phf: in order to run orig soft stably you need the os source code
asciilifeform: why ?
asciilifeform: why not the bins ?
phf: because you're going to run into timing issues as soon as you speed it up anywhere past xl speeds
asciilifeform: i dun have src of 'mario', yet still runs 100% in nintendo emu
phf: you can now run your emulator "stably" by simply downclocking it to xl speeds
asciilifeform: who said i even want to speed it up.
asciilifeform: phf: i was under impression that there were missing instructions
asciilifeform: that occur in some of the soft (e.g. 'ns' )
phf: i've spent significant amount of time in the snap4 also, looking particularly at the ns bug, i've played with the relevant instruction. it's not missing, it's apparently not buggy either, there's nothing to publish. throttling the emu seems to eliminate it though
asciilifeform: phf: i'm inclined to believe
asciilifeform: what then should i understand as the 'operation' phf fears 'fuck up' by giving up docs ?
asciilifeform: i'm even inclined to believe when phf says 'i'm gathering intel, from skittish source'. but there comes a time to act on the intel.
asciilifeform: there's 0 point gathering if never act.
phf: there's no "docs", it's not some kind of mother lode of all things bolix. fwiw i went into as excited and with the same expectations you're imagining right now. there was a set of printed papers that primarily existed in pre-ivory days. they are mostly related to e.g. mechanical layout of the boards (the bulk of stuff was e.g. machining parameters of motherboards and cases, something i didn't even touch)
phf: that was last year's loot: junk upon inspection
asciilifeform: for all you know, the thing is built such that if i make clone 1mm shorter, capacitance changes and it dungo. my board actually has 'blue wires' ! and caps soldered by hand straddling ~two~ socketed PALs, and other wonders.
phf: _3600_ _pre-ivory days_
asciilifeform: granted i dun need 36xx crapola for anyffin. but is it all clearly labeled as such ?
phf: how much of this is genuine interest to replicate the damn thing and how much of this is just a blind "i want, now now now"?
asciilifeform: phf: relax, i aint in hurry. but i'd ~really~ like not to have to have same thead yr from nao.
phf: asciilifeform: yes. it is clearly labeled as such.
asciilifeform: can haz errything ~not~ thusly labeled then ?
asciilifeform: by phf's earlier admission, 99+% of the stash is 36xxism. then can haz the remaining page ?
phf: asciilifeform: that is where we fucking started.
asciilifeform: started. in oct. 2017 .
phf: asciilifeform: well, what's the point of me saying things and then you still stick to your original conceptions?
asciilifeform: plox can haz conclusion to this, e.g. after the last line of http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2735 ?
asciilifeform: phf: what am i missing ?
asciilifeform: phf: i aint even asking 'gimme nao', but why not pick a date .
asciilifeform: i won't even touch it 'now' even if given, have full hands tryin' (and not with 100% success) to stick to ~own~ 'pick date'
mircea_popescu: well, i re-read this, lessee.
asciilifeform: i aint a hotheaded fella, have patience. picture how e.g. mircea_popescu would react, if somebody promised him item 'next weekend' and then for 13 consecutive months 'next weekend' with no intermediate debug output.
asciilifeform: ( how many keyboards would he break, on how many heads ? )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-19#1881922 << i suspect the approach is particularly chaffind to asciilifeform because childhood trauma, "older brother keeping the good chocolate to eat with his gf". but this aside, it is problematic because it very much smacks of usg-style "here's the conclusions of some measurements we're not publishing".
a111: Logged on 2018-12-19 19:29 phf: my approach to this is to find compromise, i've volunteered all the information i've volunteered so far. i'm making a point that whatever asciilifeform might need for his work i can communicate to him. is this approach not acceptable? it seems that i'm just being pressured into dumping a dump of unknown quality and state, that might or might not help
phf: asciilifeform: if i followed your lead on this subject i would've had nothing. for all i know right now i still have nothing. i don't understand how you can't seem to connect that the answer to "how did you do it??" is in what i'm doing. if i'm not giving you anything, it's because i don't have it, or i don't know if i have it, which is something for me to evaluate.
mircea_popescu: there's a long history of "fuckers, phuctor" specifically driven by this behaviour, so no, it's not liable to be popular in general.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: recall your 'how to piss me the fuck off' piece ? this is sorta the beginning and end of asciilifeform's version, were it to be written.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i kinda noticed as much.
asciilifeform: phuctor was specifically conceived as a spiked, electrified cock to be driven deep into the arses of the 'we measured, won't say' people, whatever their nominal flag
asciilifeform: and even worked, after a fashion, long catalogue of squirming seekretards
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: tho ftr brother faithfully shared with asciilifeform the rare chocolate.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's rage was built elsewhere, in yrs of actually working among usgtards.
mircea_popescu: now, as to me personally, i find your behaviour deeply offensive for the following reason : i do not believe you speak accidentally, you're much too meticulous and lengthily silent for that. the only reconstruction of today's discussion that stands my read is, "well, at first he tried line x, see if they're morons enoujgh to buy it ; that failed, regroupped to line y".
asciilifeform: this in re asciilifeform's pov or phf
mircea_popescu: what, if i hadn't said "you know, you can't propose whatever tards trump republican interest" that'd have ended up baked into precedent ? and what, i'm supposed to not notice this ? i notice.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i'm still discussing the line i quoted, i'm not yet at current log.
asciilifeform: aa aaa
mircea_popescu: ie, not only do i have no use for some guy who's gonna publish whatever his mom finds "appropriate" ; but on 2nd pass i have no use for some guy fluffyponying it along.
phf: mircea_popescu: i act out of character once, and it's to my disadvantage. i got the original point, i didn't at any point expect that there's a way to avoid it.
asciilifeform still hopes to see phf Do The Right Thing
asciilifeform: ( and imho it's quite obvious what The Right Thing is )
asciilifeform: ... and not because pressured, but because it's the motherfucking Right Thing and was clear all along.
mircea_popescu: right. anyways, carrying on : http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-19#1881922 << in the practical terms of doing things, the problem of unknowns stands that the man with a need and no chest doesn't know what to ask from the chest and the man with the ches and no need doesn't know what to send him.
a111: Logged on 2018-12-19 19:29 phf: my approach to this is to find compromise, i've volunteered all the information i've volunteered so far. i'm making a point that whatever asciilifeform might need for his work i can communicate to him. is this approach not acceptable? it seems that i'm just being pressured into dumping a dump of unknown quality and state, that might or might not help
mircea_popescu: there's no direct way to resolve this in the shot-over-bow manner, and you two have the disadvantage that being very unlike personalities with very unlike personal histories, you apparently get on each other's nerves.
asciilifeform suspects that if this weren't the case, i'd be posting from a 32GB bolix already
phf: asciilifeform: you suspect wrongly, but you won't take my word for it either.
asciilifeform: phf: if i'm wrong, i'd very much like the hypothesis 'but if only phf had brought the goods' not to lay on the table re why wrong.
phf: asciilifeform: hence i said "but you won't take my word for it" yeah?
asciilifeform: phf: i dun like to take word for it, no.
asciilifeform: phf: observe, asciilifeform's approach to breaking 'seekrets' is not entirely ineffective. and yes it is 'unfriendly', in particular to folx keeping the seekritz. which by extension is ~anyone~ who knows and aint saying.
asciilifeform: and especially , deliberately unfriendly to whoever profits from the seekrederpery. in fact, i will know when my reversing has succeeded when a bolix collector somewhere at last eats his pistol because his $100k stash of irons is now worth == 8bit nintendo.
asciilifeform: until ~then~ i will be left to wonder whether actually achieved anyffing, even if working cycle-accurate clone with somehow full src.
phf: asciilifeform: i have no issues with unfriendliness of your approach or it's secret busting nature. i'm trying different approach, and so far our success is identical in that it's 0. we're at a point where our mutual approaches can benefit, yet you deny me mine, periodically insulting it in creative ways.
asciilifeform: phf: i'm willing to believe that you have > 0 , even. but how about some output , pleez ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-19#1881963 << the question here being, what exact assistence is this to be then ?
a111: Logged on 2018-12-19 19:55 phf: i took saeculum promises specifically to assist with republican work. i think that dumping this dump as is is short sighted, because the dump by weight is garbage, and will trivially identify all involved. i want to at least evaluate what's in it that can be of assistance to asciilifeform, an identification that became necessary only a week ago.
phf: asciilifeform: wait, what? i said that _our_ approaches _both_ are _0_.
asciilifeform: phf: i'm taking on faith, that you have an intel lead hangin' somewhere
asciilifeform: currently i do not
asciilifeform: ( aside from possibly phf )
asciilifeform: that's sumthing. if indeed it's there.
asciilifeform: i also dun have a treasure chest.
asciilifeform: ( all i got is some iron )
mircea_popescu: in other trivia, i give you 70s hair! https://d1yokj200xz0mr.cloudfront.net/gfx/news/strelky.jpg
asciilifeform: and i have ~decade of eating erry scrap of docs that ever came to the surface.
asciilifeform: for what little that's worth.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: notbad.jpg
asciilifeform: phf: i regret to insult phf . but try to appreciate asciilifeform's position: dug in the dirt since '07 and the only clues dug up were with not only no help from anyone, but in spite of vigorous stonewalling from entire 'komyooniti'
asciilifeform: i've actually gotten moar troof from ex-nsa people re nsa diddles, than from bolixologists !
asciilifeform: silent, these lot, like partizans.
mircea_popescu: and now im in the unenviable position of thinking about nonsense. look here asciilifeform : the man says http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-19#1881968 and what am i to do ? remember that you're one of the principal idiots who decided to run their pizarro process throgh a encryptospitball, and before that you came up with the brilliancy that was "secret clauses" in pizarro nearly got ben_vulpes beheaded.
a111: Logged on 2018-12-19 19:58 phf: asciilifeform: when i communicated with you, in private, about the dump in the past, your response was essentially "i'm not making any promises, i'm going to dump the whole thing on the internet", i've attempted to communicate to you that further value can be extracted from that relationship, if you're patient. your reaction to that was to start talking about whisperers etc. and then you come back with "i wonder how you got your hands
mircea_popescu: your management of private communication is ~appaling~.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: didja ever put yer lunch inside a safe ?
asciilifeform: cuz that's where empty space was.
asciilifeform: not once ?
mircea_popescu: hasn't occured.
asciilifeform takes off hat.
mircea_popescu: did you ever own a safe ?
mircea_popescu: you understand what a bitch it is to clean ?
asciilifeform: quite a bitch
mircea_popescu: i dunno anyone puts food in one sober.
asciilifeform: who said sober, lol
mircea_popescu: yes well i don't get drunk among open safes.
asciilifeform: better man than i.
mircea_popescu: so now. is the case as you publicly present it, "phf has been not helping for year +" or is the case as he publicly presents it, "i tried to help a year ago but granularity didn't match and then he went on a campaign of fuming about whisperers ''in general'' transparently in reference to the particuylar case and i was stuck sitting and listening to it."
asciilifeform: 'for year +' entirely aside, imho i've said enuff re subj to resolve any possible ambiguity re where stands currently.
asciilifeform: so will be clear from what phf's next move.
mircea_popescu: maybe you did, but as a factual matter it's not clear to me.
asciilifeform: i dun expect to make any substantial movements on bolix front till march, at earliest .
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: to summarize : if phf decides to Do Right Thing and gpg to asciilifeform the goods, then i'ma eat'em and whatever public output will not reveal his informant.
mircea_popescu: my question was as to the past.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: apparently i have magical ability to say 9000 times something and not be understood
asciilifeform: as evident from interaction w/ phf for past 13mo
mircea_popescu: well, so in simple terms, is 'your response was essentially "i'm not making any promises, i'm going to dump the whole thing on the internet"' a factual claim or isn't it ?
asciilifeform: 'hey phf, canhaz pinout nao ?' 'busy this weekend, how about next month' 'hey phf, been 6 weeks, i have to bother but canhaz pinout?' 'i'm moving flats, ask again in 2k' 'hey phf...'
mircea_popescu: so it's not factual then ?
a111: Logged on 2018-12-19 19:30 asciilifeform: phf: if dump weighs TB and (apparently) after whole year phf still not eaten it, might make sense to pgp to asciilifeform . i'ma not post the raw docs and their yellowdots.
asciilifeform: ( cuz apparently it's heavy )
asciilifeform: fwiw i have nfi what sorta danger could justify the 'yellowdots' phobia here, i'm stuck taking phf's word
mircea_popescu: well yes, but that was today.
asciilifeform: right. hence 'i have made position clear, let's count from today'
asciilifeform: i dun begrudge the year, even. proj moves in geological time, for entirely unrelated reasons
asciilifeform: phf plox to lemme know if any part of asciilifeform's pos is unclear.
phf: asciilifeform: it's clear now, i believe it changed drastically literally today, up until now i believe it was as i was made to understand it.
mircea_popescu: so basically, the facts of the matter is, "at some point in the distant-er than month but closer than decade past", phf wanted to tell you some things and you took a hard line "just dump the thing", which he didn't want to do. then recently, having bought some parts and being less theoretically and more practically minded, you revised your stance ~in your own mind~ to http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-19#1881964 and so on, but n
a111: Logged on 2018-12-19 19:55 asciilifeform: phf: i aint proposing to put the thing on ftp as-is.
mircea_popescu: ever mentioned it to anyone else (before now).
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: phf only today elaborated re his behind-nazi-lines informant
asciilifeform: previously i had nfi why he wouldn't simply pass on the goods as-is
mircea_popescu: so then why is this a conflictual matter anyway ?
asciilifeform: i dunno !
asciilifeform: why, phf ?
mircea_popescu: you know, when you ask someone why is x conflictual and he dunno, it's a case of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-19#1882111 ; when you ask me the results are invariably http://trilema.com/2018/an-examination-of-conflict/ like.
a111: Logged on 2018-12-19 21:08 mircea_popescu: your management of private communication is ~appaling~.
asciilifeform: i'm not at all averse to handling the matter in such a way that it preserves phf's source. keeping in mind the http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-19#1881979 caveat.
a111: Logged on 2018-12-19 20:04 asciilifeform: nao, if phf thinks that asciilifeform cracking the case ~at all~ will 'unmask' phf's informant, this is a problem. chiefly for phf's informant, because i ~will~ rape bolix, whether anyone helps or not
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu i'll be entirely happy if i learn that i dun actually disagree with phf .
mircea_popescu: so far you've learned that if you learn or don't learn it's not apparently a process within your control. which in itself needs some examination.
asciilifeform: the insides of other folxs' heads are not process under my control, noose at 11
mircea_popescu: you don't ~have to~ need me to read this three times instead of playing dungeoneers
mircea_popescu: (which is a fine game btw)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu's criticism is entirely troo, i got nuffin
mircea_popescu: could for the same money have "hey phf-- i know i said so and so in the past, but truth be told now i got these chips and i'd like to get some work done, so how about..."
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: appreciate, asciilifeform would like to avoid 'infection' with the sort of oath phf apparently took with his source
asciilifeform: so i cannot make promise 'you can read but Never Do Anything with these!'
mircea_popescu: talking to a girl doesn't result in an obligation to fuck her. or marry her. or raise her offspring. you're just talking.
phf: that's not a promise that i made, and this is a misrepresentation of my position. unfortunately i can't find the relevant pgpgram, but i believe i made it clear that i don't want this publically discussed, because obviously if any of the interested parties were to read this conversation, their reaction would be "waitaminute". i never the less offered to share what i have, but i never got a confirmation that you can just keep quite on
phf: the subject. perhaps i should've made it clear that _knowledge gained this way is yours to keep_. in response i got constant, year long abuse directed _as i believe it was_ at least partially my way about whisperes and conspiracies.
mircea_popescu: so that's what all that was ?
asciilifeform: phf: it aint my intention to 'abuse' , but try just 1nce to picture yerself in my pos.
phf: where's the reality as i see it, is that you were offered some stuff, and your reaction was i'm my own king i do as i want
phf: not only that, but _immediately_ after your started on the whole whisperer thread
asciilifeform: phf: my reaction , thus far, is strictly to the not-getting of the selfsame offeredstuff.
phf: look i told you about the stuff basically as soon as i came back _from a photoshoot_, gigs of photos, need to be sorted through. i communicated as much. the whisperer stuff started way before i had a chance to do anything about it. i mean what the fuck. it's like "i'm the greatest bolix liberator, and everyone else working towards it is an obscurantist and a cunt, unless they blog their shit right now". how am i not supposed to take
phf: this personal, on top of the fact that it low key compromises what i'm trying to do?
asciilifeform: phf: elaborate plz re how asciilifeform's effort 'compromises what i'm trying to do'
phf: and more important how can i trust you into the process if your basic approach on the subject is shoot from the hip?
phf: asciilifeform: not your _effort_, your _rants_ but more importantly _this very conversation_.
asciilifeform: this, phf gotta decide for himself
phf: asciilifeform: it's a fucking rhetorical question.
asciilifeform: but i'd specifically like to know if phf ~doesnt~ trust, and i wont cry if phf rates accordingly
asciilifeform: but if ~does~ trust, then i want to see the logical next step, if a then b.
asciilifeform: the 1 item i specifically do not want, is another unbounded interval of maybes.
asciilifeform: if phf's thought is 'i can't trust this maniac not to lie and then post whole thing on ftp, killing kat the radio gurl' i'd like to hear this said in the open.
asciilifeform: as for 'this conversation', it is imho an entirely necessary one, and the only thing unreasonable about it is that it had to wait for 13 months.
phf: asciilifeform: there was already _one_ conversation, i made my _conclusions_. your adventage is that you can basically just rant in the open, make insulting fucking statements in "general direction" of those bolix whisperers. where's i lose by having this in public record. i told you as much _at the very beginning_. but you clearly shit on my efforts, i mean you have been saying as much in public for a year, so you don't lose anything
phf: from this conversation, where's i potentially do. fucking three years of relationship building.
asciilifeform: what have you got from 'three years of relationship building' with the anons ? by your own admission '0', neh ?
asciilifeform: and really, 'i lose from having this in public record' ?!
phf: yes, and it can continue this way, until i either have non-0, or it all amounts to nothing. how's that a problem? it's my fucking work.
asciilifeform: dun wanna end up out in the cold, with asciilifeform and other barbarians, would prefer warm clubhouse of the sad people ?
asciilifeform: rly ?
phf: asciilifeform: you're making selective conclusions from what i'm saying, i don't see any point in further communicating my point.
asciilifeform: i cannot picture how to draw any other conclusion from what's been said so far
asciilifeform: the 'i will lose from having this in public record' is quite concerning.
phf: yes, my whole goal is to have a bunch of useless bolix junk, that i can mallory on top till i die.
asciilifeform: in particularly re mircea_popescu's earlier point.
asciilifeform: phf: wouldja care to clarify exactly what is your goal in re bolixology ?
asciilifeform: cuz i think i've made mine quite clear
asciilifeform: ( rape and pillage, fullstop )
phf: asciilifeform: i don't believe me repeating myself on this point will make a difference, i've already said it, but you've already made your conclusions.
phf: actually i'm not sure i said it in the logs, so my bad. i want a fully operational bolix fpga, or in the future other type of replica, complete with genera sources and other such bells and whistles
asciilifeform: for the benefit of uninvested l0gz readers, i will summarize what i know. there are 2 basic schools of bolixology.
trinque: peanut gallery over here, but have you two ever sat down and discussed same in meat?
asciilifeform: 1 is asciilifeform's , and imho well-understood.
asciilifeform: the other, is the one where folx sit around and try to sweet-talk the koscheis sitting on the tapes, to take pity and maybe release something 'orderly way'
asciilifeform: to date, the 2nd has produced nothing public. asciilifeform at least posted highres board, which was afaik first (!) ever on the net where you can at least read the fucking ic labels.
asciilifeform: trinque: believe or not, we got along pretty well in meat, the 1 time met.
phf: i got it, there's the honest proper asciilifeform way which is all success stories and high ratings. and then there's the usg, cuck way of actually talking to people.
asciilifeform: phf: i dun make tall claim of success for mine. but it ~published something~
asciilifeform: and thereby beats the shit out of the folx who published nothing ! is this controversial ?
trinque: asciilifeform: I believe it, as this thread reads like mutually talking straight past.
asciilifeform: talking-to-people is a+++, if you ~use~ the intel
asciilifeform: which means yes, working with yet-other people who shoot from hip and have baked fpga.
asciilifeform: if you ~sit~ on the intel, it's wankery.
mircea_popescu: trinque there seems to be a halting problem somewhere buried in there, among various other maladroitisms.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu, phf i'ma leave thread alone for today and give folx time to cool .
asciilifeform: it does 0 good to grr.
trinque: you know, like that time trinque and phf got into it, and probably would've wised up pages back if but for a friendly thrown fist
trinque doesn't mean in phf's direction either!
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-19#1881988 << rather, the results. doesn't seems he cares about (or even comprehends) the methodology.
a111: Logged on 2018-12-19 20:09 phf: you're constantly in logs, confused as to how anyone can get anything from anyone, yet now you're questioning my methods.
a111: Logged on 2018-12-19 20:36 asciilifeform: plox can haz conclusion to this, e.g. after the last line of http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2735 ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-19#1882089 << this is a most idiotic standard. doctor doesn't rest easy when the last "seer" mammie "eats pistol", chiefly because doctor doesn't give a damn.
a111: Logged on 2018-12-19 21:00 asciilifeform: and especially , deliberately unfriendly to whoever profits from the seekrederpery. in fact, i will know when my reversing has succeeded when a bolix collector somewhere at last eats his pistol because his $100k stash of irons is now worth == 8bit nintendo.
a111: Logged on 2018-12-19 21:02 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-19#1881963 << the question here being, what exact assistence is this to be then ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-19#1882171 << specifically "waitaminute" what ? "waitaminute, high fucking time to make a key and register iwth deedbot" ? or "waitaminute, this isn't a guy we can talk to anymore!" ?
a111: Logged on 2018-12-19 21:32 phf: that's not a promise that i made, and this is a misrepresentation of my position. unfortunately i can't find the relevant pgpgram, but i believe i made it clear that i don't want this publically discussed, because obviously if any of the interested parties were to read this conversation, their reaction would be "waitaminute". i never the less offered to share what i have, but i never got a confirmation that you can just keep quite on
mircea_popescu: indulge me for a moment, if you will, and make sense of this salad. why exactly would you ~care~ about the relationship with some morons who ~actually read~ the logs and then douchebag out of the republic ? "because they know really interesting secrets" ? you genuinely believe this is possible, people being both so fucking stupid as to opt out of the republic, and so fucking smart as to have anything, ~anything whatsoever~ to
mircea_popescu: say ? how is this to work ?
mircea_popescu: and moreover, from the other side, "fiat bolix, pereat mundus, ruat caelum" ? "i am ~so dedicated~ to reconstructing this 80s atari, i am willing to spend however long living with and among fucktarded orc populations, at the risk of my brain rotting like boas'" ? did you actually think this through and that's how it came out ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in the interest of saving space, i'ma link to e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1738171 , http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1738149 , http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-23#1631545 .
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 20:10 asciilifeform: apeloyee: the other thing to consider, is that the preserved bolix material has ~unspeakably~ rich ( and quite high snr ) collection of artifacts, perhaps 1000 asciilifeform-years of work. take the ns vlsi compiler alone. i have the binaries, but not the src. and ~someone~ will have to make a sane (i.e. fully lispified and zero-externals) vlsitron.
a111: Logged on 2017-11-14 19:56 asciilifeform: apeloyee: but on the other hand any attempt to build a sane arch, without fully grasping the bolix stack, from ic to the compiler, is lunacy.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-23 04:32 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu is free to be as 'unpersuaded' as he wants. fact: his machine -- can overrun an array; bolix -- could not; his box -- crashes, cannot be examined or uncrashed (yes) -- bolix -- could; and various other aspects, well covered in teh logz.
phf: mircea_popescu: i care about the relationship for the stuff it can produce. i think i'm stuck in circular here. either i have nothing, and then the relationship have no value, but then this conversation is pointless. or else i have something, and the relationship is indeed capable of producing stuff.
phf: ignoring for a moment the general conclusion in multiple threads that bolix archeology is essentially a pointless hobby
asciilifeform: phf: mircea_popescu and asciilifeform appearently differ on this pt
asciilifeform: from my pov, if you 'interest in comp' and aint a bolixologist, yer breathing air in vain
mircea_popescu: yeah but i mean, capable when producing what etcetera. i never pursued a woman in my life, nor do i intend to ever start ; i hold no grudges for those who do, but you do understand ~an entire half of the species~ survived to the present day by ~exploting~ this behaviour of yours, yes ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so i have some air stashed away, i'll live.
asciilifeform: it's the 1 example of the fucking spaceheaters , in whole history of that pseudo-field, that wasn't built by monkeys.
mircea_popescu: not so far from monkeys, either, consider how the thing went, 1998-2018. but i think the thread's not worth rehashing.
asciilifeform: dead geologist in taiga , with working radio, is much farther from monkey than the live chukcha who found corpse.
asciilifeform: but i'ma also not rehash thread, i suspect mircea_popescu is immune to argument re subj
mircea_popescu: phf this whole "i care about the relationship for the stuff it can produce" is very like what proust'd said.
asciilifeform: btw i'm mildly astonished that nobody, not even mircea_popescu , put in argument 'what makes you, dirty monkey, think that you can re-create radio'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform group of ~dead~ geologists in taiga, with working radios and smoking guns, WAY closer to monkey than the chucka female that told them each she's gonna put out the same night in the same place.
phf: mircea_popescu: well, i don't think this is quite like chasing women, i think of it more as a scavenger hunt.
phf: or a sierra quest
mircea_popescu: phf i never heard of scavenger taking the loving tack to the quarry. usually scavenger sounds like alf sounds.
asciilifeform: phf: thus far seems to resemble more the conflict over the alien crud depicted in 'roadside picnic'
mircea_popescu: phf you want to say "if i can't discriminate then why am i lord", then you turn around and it's "either i have something or i don't have something." well, discriminate, which is it ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ever read 'roadside picnic' ? http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-10#1849235 << subj
a111: Logged on 2018-09-10 16:50 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the strugatsky brothers, before sinking into senile delirium, had a tale 'roadside picnic', where unknown aliens land and leave buncha rubbish behind, and immediately depart. the rubbish includes 'usefuls', such as 'eternal batteries', but also various deadlies, and plenty of things 'in between', and earthling culture is rearranged by it.
mircea_popescu: i don't even remember ;/
asciilifeform: it aint halfbad
phf: mircea_popescu: i've given a more nuanced answer over the logs. i've said that stuff from last year is junk, i'm not sure about stuff from this year, because i haven't inspected it yet. short of asciilifeform's periodic jabs, there was simply no reason to dedicate more time to it, considering that from a useful work perspective this is seen as a hobby, and i already have a backlog of things i actually need to be working on.
mircea_popescu: and you don't want him to be looking through it because whatever, not nice enough, and well...
phf: i made that point clear also, i believe he will spoil my hunt. he explicitly told me he will! as far as love for quarry, i assume that this particular log can potentially reach the quarry in question, and i suspect his reaction is not going to be to join the republic.
asciilifeform: also said, later, that won;t. but phf chooses to ignore.
mircea_popescu: and you like her enough to overlook this, and so it goes.
asciilifeform: i was told 11 yrs ago by dks that 'people are working on releasing the goods, it will take politics'. fast fwd 11y. 0 releases.
asciilifeform: and the iron ever scarcer, and even most of the few public www pages, gone
mircea_popescu: hey, girls say what girls say.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the 'girls' are 80-90s d00ds, fwiw. but i think i see what mircea_popescu meant
asciilifeform: and yes the dynamic is exactly film 'meangirls'
asciilifeform: 'oh hey if susy hears what mary said, mary will never get to be in Plastic Fantastics!'
phf: asciilifeform: fwiw i didn't ignore your point. i don't trust you with this stuff, and not because you're not trustworthy, but because you refuse to be discreet when asked to be. and again since this will be misconstrued, i'm not saying keep things secret, i was specifically asking you to _quitely_ use the products of my work.
mircea_popescu: are these products factual products or putative products ?
phf: mircea_popescu: he can only use factual products
mircea_popescu: yes, but it seemed to me as if you only had putative products. hence it'd appear there's a mismatch.
phf: mircea_popescu: well, the use is of factual products, the request to be discreet is for putative products.
mircea_popescu shrugs. "some things you might maybe one day get that he won't be able to use then anyway" seems an entirely over-ellaborate way to say "nothing".
mircea_popescu: anyway, your putative source of putative products that may one day do something or not could be upset or not for all the practical difference it makes.
BingoBoingo: Well, fwiw there's a business around the corner which sells putas by the half hour and by the hour. They don't seem to be folding anytime soon even with their lack of signage.
BingoBoingo: No shortage of putative in this world
BingoBoingo: And in herpity derpadoos https://www.elobservador.com.uy/nota/vazquez-no-aceptamos-que-se-diga-que-este-gobierno-va-a-entregar-un-pais-en-crisis--20181219153853
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-19#1882282 << as i understand, on reread of thrd, there are no fewer than ~3~ bags of lulz : 1 is last yr's, which phf described as entirely useless in the end, and i'ma believe. another is this yr's, which hasn't been combed yet. and the third is the 'putative' of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-19#1882266 .
a111: Logged on 2018-12-19 22:53 mircea_popescu: yes, but it seemed to me as if you only had putative products. hence it'd appear there's a mismatch.
a111: Logged on 2018-12-19 22:28 phf: mircea_popescu: i've given a more nuanced answer over the logs. i've said that stuff from last year is junk, i'm not sure about stuff from this year, because i haven't inspected it yet. short of asciilifeform's periodic jabs, there was simply no reason to dedicate more time to it, considering that from a useful work perspective this is seen as a hobby, and i already have a backlog of things i actually need to be working on.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-19#1882279 << this is 1 reason why the discussion is moar than about a piece of pot shard from archaeo-dig . does phf trust asciilifeform's oath as a lord ? if not, really he oughta update rating of asciilifeform ! and if yes, then i dun see why to dangle 'next week, next week' in front of asciilifeform for yr+ and never show any dirt, large, small.
a111: Logged on 2018-12-19 22:49 phf: asciilifeform: fwiw i didn't ignore your point. i don't trust you with this stuff, and not because you're not trustworthy, but because you refuse to be discreet when asked to be. and again since this will be misconstrued, i'm not saying keep things secret, i was specifically asking you to _quitely_ use the products of my work.
mircea_popescu: the only bag of lulz is the apparently endlessly recurent "this chick's a moron but ima indulge".
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: which'd be which ?
mircea_popescu: today, "i'm talking to this guy, who is not smart enough to make a key upon reading the logs, but is smart enough to have interesting things ". traditionally-bolix, "these six morons that weren't apt to survive nevertheless made important tech". generally throughout, "i dunno how to resolve the tension between stupid and horny", from http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-18#1881534 to http://btcbase.org/log/2014-07-26#770352 and 9k
a111: Logged on 2018-12-18 19:57 mircea_popescu: why is it that this church is notable in spite of not having a feedbot ?
a111: Logged on 2014-07-26 17:26 mircea_popescu: "just get rid of her if she's annoying" leads directly to "and get rid of any slaves that can't cope with no pp or complain enough"
mircea_popescu: examples in between.
mircea_popescu: it takes stronger distorsion fields than i'm willing to run, the entertaining of this particular flavour of "but nevertheless"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i dun demand that the deaf understand, somehow, music. observe that mircea_popescu dun care for bolix, and i equally duncare for bondage&discipline, yet we still find what to constructively say to one another on occasion.
asciilifeform: and i appreciate that mircea_popescu knows how to approach subj abstractly.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform which would be the "music" in this discussion ?
asciilifeform: the 1 and only ~sane comp built to date.
asciilifeform: ic design chain that fit in 20kloc. etc.
asciilifeform: i aint presumptious enuff to suppose that i can re-create 'all of it + some + hookers & poker' without dig of orig.
mircea_popescu: let me tell you a story.
asciilifeform: i like stories
mircea_popescu: one day a poor gypsy teenager with no clear clan affiliation ran away from whatever rural shithole.
mircea_popescu: spent a year or so taking it in the ass in the backroom of various roadside inns.
mircea_popescu: eventually had enough and returned "home".
mircea_popescu: told the gathered round kiddies that he was all the while in service of the prince of sarajevo
mircea_popescu: who defeated the americans at the battle of krivoy rog.
mircea_popescu: at ~this particular juncture~ kiddie mp tunes out. because while he can't evaluate whether this gypo did or did not serve a "prince of sarajevo" he might or might not have heard of,
mircea_popescu: he knows for a fact how this "battle of krivoy rog" turned out.
mircea_popescu: ~if~ those people were smart enough to build the item you describe, the ~reasonable expectation~ is they'd have been smart enough to behave ~muchly variant~ from the ~actual way they behaved~ in fields much easier to observe.
asciilifeform: y'know full well that engineers can't find own head from arse in 'fields easier to observe'
mircea_popescu: this is no proof. but it does inform what is, for all of us, a reasonable suspicion. you think you have reason to suspect bolix is more notable than atari.
mircea_popescu: i think i have reason to suspect ~the people who made it~ are ~not more notable~ than say amir taaki.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so what do you want me to do ?
asciilifeform: i'm under 0 illusion that i have a case built that's mircea_popescu-grade convincing.
asciilifeform: sorta the thrust of asciilifeform's 11 yrs of archaeology -- to at least build case.
asciilifeform: not even to rebuild old irons, as such.
asciilifeform: if i build ~case~, and then piano falls on me, that'll be enuff .
mircea_popescu: so then, thing can sit as it sits, i don't expect to persuade you (and i see the merit in "pre-republic, engineers===morons". i just don't see why this should be perpetuated, hence original "bag of lulz" comment.
asciilifeform: next asciilifeform can convince next mircea_popescu that there was a troy in the dirt.
asciilifeform: the 1 possible annoyance is that unlike old troy, these baubles dun last 4evah, e.g. rated life of eprom is ~40y
asciilifeform: ( i actually have an example of a decayed 1, elsewhere )
mircea_popescu: in short : you (correctly) insist because it hasn't been proven not to be ; and i am not particularly taken because it doesn't seem to have been. these are different measures.
asciilifeform: i dun have any quibble with mircea_popescu's unpersuadedness.
asciilifeform: it is 100% reasonable from his pov, he did not dig for 11y.
asciilifeform: 'troy, what troy, it's myth and it it were any good for anyffing it'd still be standing' etc
mircea_popescu: right ?
asciilifeform: asciilifeform on other hand would rather dig for troy than sex.
asciilifeform: that's simply how beelzebub made him.
mircea_popescu: dig, dig.
asciilifeform: and i long ago gave up to expect any help from anybody in the matter. thrd where asciilifeform annoyed, is specifically re 'promised, promised, and 0 deliver', which i think is a situation mircea_popescu can relate to in own head
mircea_popescu: it'd be a lot more relatable if you managed these things more like i do and less like a rabid pubescent wolverine.
asciilifeform: how did that old hajja nasredin parable go ?
mircea_popescu: which one ?
asciilifeform: the one where 'well if ~you~ were nasreddin and ~i~ were the king, then it'd be you standing in front of me' etc
asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu were wolverine, and i were mircea_popescu , there'd be, lol, same thread...
asciilifeform: ( imho it is not given to have 2 mircea_popescu's, the gods dun have enuff juice to plug'em in 2 at a time )
asciilifeform: in unrelated (but not entirely) noose, uncrated chinese macro lens, and it aint halfbad
asciilifeform pleasantly surprised.