← | Results 751 ... 895 found in all logged channels for 'vtron'
(trilema) asciilifeform: !~later tell mod6 i sat down to play with trinque's bots for kicks, and with your vtron, and noticed that the latter does not like to be 'init'-ed twice for 2 separate projects in one local dir. is this intentional ? and i still have problem grasping why we have the 'init' thing...
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2016-09-09 02:22 asciilifeform: mod6: dunno that vtronic builds will ever be a 'most people' affair.
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2016-09-09 02:22 asciilifeform: mod6: dunno that vtronic builds will ever be a 'most people' affair.
(trilema) asciilifeform: that was not in my vtron.
(trilema) asciilifeform: mod6: dunno that vtronic builds will ever be a 'most people' affair.
(trilema) asciilifeform: (he wrote a cl vtron and possibly other items)
(trilema) asciilifeform: phf: it is how my vtron worked.
(trilema) asciilifeform: e.g., mod6's vtron does not depend on trb in any way shape or form
(trilema) asciilifeform: well in the sense that i'm not sure what one wins from vtronic incarnation of it
(trilema) trinque: actually I think mircea_popescu first mentioned getting a vtronic hosts file going
(trilema) asciilifeform: rule #1 of vtronics: no cyclez!1111111
(trilema) asciilifeform: other ingredients include vtronics (every line has a sworn and cryptoauthenticated author),
(trilema) asciilifeform: soooo it appears that we do not have ~any~ recipe posted for building vtronic trb ?
(trilema) asciilifeform: yeah but this is not done in any extant vtron.
(trilema) asciilifeform: so none of the extant vtrons are able to eat them.
(trilema) asciilifeform: pop yer favourite text editor, and pick favourite vtron (i recommend mod6's) and play.
(trilema) asciilifeform: but it is not outside. the signed pedigreed tarball is a vtronic creation (in the respective cases, mine and mircea_popescu 's)
(trilema) asciilifeform: srsly read the code, of ANYBODY's vtron
(trilema) a111: Logged on 2016-02-08 20:09 ascii_butugychag: i will half-seriously suggest that we refer to the ~set of patches, seals, keys~ that a particular vtron is aware of at his particular point in spacetime, as... his lightcone
(trilema) phf: j-dawg: btcbase secretly tracks btcbase itself, since i'm experimenting with (load-v "foo.vpatch") type thing, but that's not public. i don't think there's a proper vtronic chain of V or rotor available, so unless i generate those myself there's nothing i can track
(trilema) asciilifeform: realize, v was something that i was specifically only able to conceive of because i am working with cultured folks who can be relied upon to not shit in the kitchen. operating vtron will always require a good measure of intelligence, wisdom, restraint...
(trilema) asciilifeform: my vtron was very much a battlefield wunderwaffen, adequate strictly for pressing a well-gardened trb tree that consisted 95% of asciilifeform
(trilema) asciilifeform: well recall , my vtron was incomplete in the aspect where it assumed that any leaf was pressable per se
(trilema) phf: (i don't really know how mod6's vtron operates, only speaking of mine and asciilifeform's)
(trilema) asciilifeform: well phf was , i think, speaking of the basic vtron conceptually
(trilema) trinque: mrottenkolber: consider that as specified the total source code involved in a vtron can *decrease* drastically from here.
(trilema) asciilifeform: mod6: correct vtron will exponentiate inside itself.
(trilema) asciilifeform: mod6: a proper vtron won't call out to shell
(trilema) asciilifeform: mrottenkolber: this is not the important bit. a collision will successfully interfere with the function of automated vtrons, e.g., one where patches are thrown into a hopper unattended
(trilema) mod6: speaking of which... if we were still going to use scheme, long-term, i'd probably re-write my vtron in scheme -- if for no other reason, to learn it.
(trilema) asciilifeform: davout: if using format of classic gpg, there is no way to uniquely specify 'this is vtronically signed'
(trilema) mod6: phf: well, other than saying "interesting" and "cool", i couldn't figure out how to do that either. unless we create a vtron signature style in 'g' or is it 'p'? i cant recall.. cause how will someones vtron be able to pull the bit string out to know how to categorize someones seal?
(trilema) mod6: <+asciilifeform> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437337 << the way i see it, the 'punishment' aspect of vtronics is secondary. the main thing is that ACTUAL PEOPLE, i.e. folks willing to ~take responsibility for their actions~, could find and recognize each other. << i think so too. but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
(trilema) mod6: and you sign your vtron keys with your one regular key? i dunno.
(trilema) asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437337 << the way i see it, the 'punishment' aspect of vtronics is secondary. the main thing is that ACTUAL PEOPLE, i.e. folks willing to ~take responsibility for their actions~, could find and recognize each other.
(trilema) asciilifeform: i keep getting the feeling that we only half-solved vtronics
(trilema) asciilifeform: but there was no way to express this vtronically.
(trilema) asciilifeform: i.e. of a vtron being confused by an enemy digging up ancient signed material.
(trilema) jurov: vtron would just say to you that the antisig from your wot exists
(trilema) jurov: for poor vtron to be able to distinguish signatures and antisignatures
(trilema) asciilifeform: ultimately, a sane linux - to the extent such a thing is physically possible - will look like a gentoo with a vtronic portage.
(trilema) asciilifeform: when we get a turingcomplete vtron, i will regrind all of my works
(trilema) asciilifeform: the inevitable thing is that vtron users' expectations must re-adjust.
(trilema) jurov: maybe we'll end up with vtron that actually allow to implement source code parser inside vpatches so that it computes checksums for every function
(trilema) asciilifeform: all i ask for is that vtron be able to specify arbitrary transformations, e.g., 'replace every letter a with b', rather than the +++/--- imbecility.
(trilema) assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 16:49:27; asciilifeform: hence turingcompletevtron.
(trilema) asciilifeform: any future folks who might think they are being clever with, e.g., nonterminating vtron program.
(trilema) asciilifeform: hence turingcompletevtron.
(trilema) punkman: asciilifeform: afaik we don't presently have a vtron that is capable of digesting everything incl. the old crud. << my vtron digests conflicting patches
(trilema) asciilifeform: iirc he was mainly bleeding to get his vtron up to par ?
(trilema) asciilifeform: but this is unfortunately not a vtronic operation, because we have idiot diff and not a turing-complete vtron.
(trilema) asciilifeform: afaik we don't presently have a vtron that is capable of digesting everything incl. the old crud.
(trilema) asciilifeform: phf: you don't need vtron for this, go use bare hands
(trilema) ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-02-2016#1408981 << why precisely do you think i've been making such a stink about vtrons lately?!
(trilema) punkman: phf, seems so. my initial suggestion was releases as patch sequence files, but I don't think anyone liked this idea. My vtron does .seq files with "foo.vpatch \t sha512(foo.vpatch) \n" inside, which works for my blobby vtronized things.
(trilema) mod6: i even had a thought, and im not even sure its feasible technically or just logically, but; we could perhaps create a wrapper for gnu patch where we strip out lines that are surrounded with "%%" or something similar to how it does with "@@", this would ultimately be needed in vtron as well to avoid issues. But the thought is, then we could put comments directly in the vpatch (surrounded by '%%') and
(trilema) asciilifeform: is anyone still unclear why i did not and still do not want curl in vtron ?!!!!
(trilema) assbot: Successfully updated the rating for mod6 from 3 to 5 with note: met alive; expert gardener of therealbitcoin.org; implementer of the first fully-functional battlefield-grade vtron.
(trilema) asciilifeform: !rate mod6 5 met alive; expert gardener of therealbitcoin.org; implementer of the first fully-functional battlefield-grade vtron.
(trilema) asciilifeform: this is a legit point, 2 is not vtronically linked to 1
(trilema) punkman: asciilifeform: .. << turing-complete vtron or bust << I'll get there eventually. Though, I think the standard unified-diff representation is useful even if patchons consisting of script are available.
(trilema) asciilifeform: i will also note that all of this was part of my original concept for vtron
(trilema) asciilifeform: if not barfs, then broken vtron.
(trilema) asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there is 'longest chain' but none of the current vtrons know how to find it
(trilema) ascii_butugychag: i will half-seriously suggest that we refer to the ~set of patches, seals, keys~ that a particular vtron is aware of at his particular point in spacetime, as... his lightcone
(trilema) mircea_popescu: ascii_rear> most civilians i've introduced to vtronics had problems with, initially, this << the problem here is that the only reason why is not obvious is because of issues in the reader's head, and a general treatise to address all possible personal issues can not really be made.
(trilema) ascii_rear: most civilians i've introduced to vtronics had problems with, initially, this
(trilema) ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395703 << so here's what my (unreleased, v2) vtron does: it grabs all patches and all sigs, merges them into an alphabetically sorted list, and then munches through that list attaching sigs whose name matches the previous patch to that patch. is this a blindingly stupid thing to do? i realize that it depends implicitly on the naming convention, but would like to hear about other unrealized
(trilema) ben_vulpes: ascii_rear: i recall reading in the log that your vtron's implicit pressing behavior is asciibetical up to indicated head, but i'm having trouble reconciling that with other reqs i once read: that vs press longest chain, and also that vs press all usable patches. would that accurately modify to 'longest chain up to indicated head'?
(trilema) ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: it's their try at... vtronics
(trilema) assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 17:53:44; ascii_butugychag: using renaming for curation is intensely anti-vtronic.
(trilema) assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 17:28:22; jurov: lxr may be vtronic *if and when* someone takes my questions serious. so, asking again, what to do with reground or otherwise resubmitted patches?
(trilema) ascii_butugychag: 'To understand commutation, you should understand why we cannot keep our original patches, but are forced to rely on evil step sisters instead.' << seems like they solved it in the PRECISELY most-anti-vtronic way.
(trilema) ascii_butugychag: (and this oughta be checked for by a vtron)
(trilema) mod6: well, hopefully my vtron works correctly.
(trilema) ascii_butugychag: supposing that your vtron works correctly
(trilema) ascii_butugychag: using renaming for curation is intensely anti-vtronic.
(trilema) ascii_butugychag: this also handily LEAVES ALONE all existing vtrons
(trilema) ascii_butugychag: jurov: sure but now every vtron would need to be rewritten to actually break down filenames
(trilema) jurov: punkman i said that, there were screams it's not vtronic
(trilema) ascii_butugychag: also all existing vtrons, afaik, match sigs to patches by using the filename.
(trilema) jurov: lxr may be vtronic *if and when* someone takes my questions serious. so, asking again, what to do with reground or otherwise resubmitted patches?
(trilema) ascii_butugychag: anyway, a thing that gives vtronic lxr that also would eat patches and let you walk the vtree, would be ~the~ answer.
(trilema) mircea_popescu: yaya. but lxr is still pretty good, and a good basis for vtronic same-thing
(trilema) asciilifeform: anything that can sit down into a vtron, is pressable.
(trilema) ascii_butugychag: PeterL: my original vtron was controlled by manually selecting patch sets
(trilema) ascii_butugychag: jurov: a correctly-designed vtron - absolutely will
(trilema) ascii_butugychag: (my own vtron verified nothing at all, i must point out.)
(trilema) ascii_butugychag: i thought mod6's vtron actually verified each patch operation ?
(trilema) ascii_butugychag: imho any other definition is necessarily un-vtronic
(trilema) asciilifeform: btw this is the kind of question a working vtron oughta answer in <1sec
(trilema) adlai wonders at the boundedness of CL vtrons... probably nonexistent
(trilema) adlai: phf: this web-facing thing is part of your CL vtron?
(trilema) asciilifeform: phf: see my original vtron.
(trilema) asciilifeform: vtron, in primary mode of operation, is to climb the tree, as high as it can on each branch, operating using the current wotset
(trilema) asciilifeform: does anyone recall how my original vtron only showed linear flow ?
(trilema) asciilifeform: as for the multitude of vtrons, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it, but i am seeing folks suffer from easily-curable issues that were not present in my original prototype (which, recall, had NO state other than patch/seal/keys working set, and did not use the net, and had the 'origin' command, etc.)
(trilema) assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 07:35:23; ben_vulpes: is everyone who hacks on this thing to write and use their own vtronic cockpit controls? or is the production of /a/ vtron usable in other contexts a goal?
(trilema) ben_vulpes: is everyone who hacks on this thing to write and use their own vtronic cockpit controls? or is the production of /a/ vtron usable in other contexts a goal?
(trilema) ascii_butugychag: at some point it will have to become vtronic
(trilema) ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: what i want is not a gutted corpse of gnudiff, but a turing-complete vtron
(trilema) ascii_butugychag: i confess that i've been using my ancient vtron. but will prolly switch to mod6's industrial-strength one very soon
(trilema) mircea_popescu: <ascii_butugychag> ideally a vtron ought to be able to apply ANY well-defined operation << quite this, tho we might have to get there in steps.
(trilema) ascii_butugychag: turing-complete vtron
(trilema) mod6: <+ascii_butugychag> ideally a vtron ought to be able to apply ANY well-defined operation << ok sure, this could be a separate feature of V i guess... have to think on this.
(trilema) ascii_butugychag: ideally a vtron ought to be able to apply ANY well-defined operation
(trilema) ascii_butugychag points out that he has been thinking about vtronics for a VERY long time.
(trilema) assbot: Logged on 29-01-2016 13:27:00; asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-01-2016#1388268 << absolutely not, the very notion is a violation of vtronics. NOW on the OTHER HAND - human-powered 'gardening' of the vtree is a perfectly fine thing. notice how mod6 is doing a splendid job of it. BUT conceivably it is also possible for archaeologists to take all of the orphaned crud i ever pasted and come up with a correct vtree
(trilema) ascii_butugychag: and same in a vtronic animal
(trilema) mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag mod6 if you wish to consider a general problem : what is the ~correct~ thing to do for vtron when it encounters two validly signed patches doing the same thing ?
(trilema) ascii_butugychag: (there was ~never~ referencing in my tinyscheme thing! it began with a vtronically nailed-down copy of known vintage from my own hdd, and proceeds from there.)
(trilema) ascii_butugychag: i broke my head on this for a while, and settled on '~/.wot by default, user-specified wot whenever you want' when i did vtron.
(trilema) mod6: <+ascii_butugychag> i still don't get why a vtron should use the net at all << I'm open to well defined explicit ideas here.
(trilema) ascii_butugychag: i still don't get why a vtron should use the net at all
(trilema) asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-01-2016#1388268 << absolutely not, the very notion is a violation of vtronics. NOW on the OTHER HAND - human-powered 'gardening' of the vtree is a perfectly fine thing. notice how mod6 is doing a splendid job of it. BUT conceivably it is also possible for archaeologists to take all of the orphaned crud i ever pasted and come up with a correct vtree
(trilema) asciilifeform: the latter is now to be considered properly vtronic.
(trilema) mod6: <+ascii_butugychag> mod6: should i re-grind the ts genesis? or can your vtron eat this without choking. << i can throw it in my patches dir tonight and see what it does with it.
(trilema) ascii_butugychag: mod6: should i re-grind the ts genesis? or can your vtron eat this without choking.
(trilema) ascii_butugychag: my first attempt was a very dirty hack, i re-did it as a properly vtronic thing (to preserve pedigree linkage to classical tinyscheme)
(trilema) mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6: does your vtron implement 'origin' ? << no
(trilema) asciilifeform: mod6: does your vtron implement 'origin' ?
(trilema) asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-01-2016#1379583 << incidentally, ~this~ is what the 'origin' command in my vtron did
(trilema) mircea_popescu: linton_s_dawson http://trilema.com/2016/the-v-manual-genesis/ << there's an attempt at a manual. you could also search for vtron and v-tron, alf tens to use it a lot. the mailing list is also a good source.
(trilema) ascii_butugychag: which was really the original stone age vtron.
(trilema) ascii_butugychag: i see no reason why mailing lists ought not be vtronic
(trilema) asciilifeform: (which, of course, would mean that a correct vtron does not presently exist...)
(trilema) asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=16-01-2016#1373434 << while this is a correct description, i would also like to add that a ~correct~ vtron is also defined as being SPECIFICALLY NOT THIS : http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-01-2016#1370325
(trilema) asciilifeform: if 2 vtrons give variant output on same input, ~someone~ has catastrophically-broken system
(trilema) asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=16-01-2016#1373494 << i've actually thought about writing, for lulz, a vtron in... gnumake
(trilema) asciilifeform: to see what i mean, break all vpatches apart on file-hash tuple boundaries, and then feed into mod6's vtron set to wild mode, and generate the plot
(trilema) asciilifeform: must understand that 'patch' is simply one possible operation for a vtron
(trilema) mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: the other thing a vtron needs to handle is orphans << heh.
(trilema) asciilifeform: it is handy for testing a vtron
(trilema) asciilifeform: also if you set your vtron to 'wild' mode you can trivially test various combos
(trilema) asciilifeform: if the toposort is correctly written, mod6's vtron ought to do it
(trilema) asciilifeform: the other thing a vtron needs to handle is orphans
(trilema) asciilifeform: mod6: ideally a vtron would follow along as the patches are applied and actually verify the hashes, yes
(trilema) asciilifeform: the only item that requires manual handling in a correct vtron is keys.
(trilema) ascii_field: mircea_popescu: it was the very textbook example of usg powershow modus operandi - pick on the borderline retarded, preferably ones who practice voodoo to a degree repugnant to the tvtronic public
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