Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2016-09-07 | 2016-09-09 →
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 613.23, vol: 4473.92758409 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 608.178, vol: 3866.27835 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 618.99, vol: 5902.85970551 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 612.465038, vol: 233710.90860000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 615.5, vol: 1011.87424192 | Volume-weighted last average: 612.579248193
hanbot: i think tropar is solely for hymns about saints or religious occasions. otherwise there's all sortsa hymns (imnuri), iirc there's even one for some mental hospital
mircea_popescu: !~later tell asciilifeform it's either a short church hymn or (as used here) the "general rule".
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: riiight.
hanbot: "Now I am my current weight" << I bet she calls it Her Weight.
mircea_popescu: fatlogic. so fat woman isn't going to tell him all he wants ot hear ; this is a skinny chick skill only.
mircea_popescu: somehow the fact that the skinny chick does all the talk the fat chick would gladly do in her stead AND ALSO HITS THE GYM is to escape our notice. because... shallow.
hanbot: That is obsured. You need to open up your eyes if you wish.
mircea_popescu: lol this dumb shit seriously exist ? "find a gold digger online dot com" ?
mircea_popescu: My husband is my life, my mentor, my best friend, my partner in crime and he means the world to me. I am his priority and he lives to make me happy. Read more>>
mircea_popescu: actually this thing might have the largest female population, simple because seeing pretty brunette with old looking rich dude is like salt in fatty's wounds. and what tru woman can resist salt in her wounds ?
BingoBoingo: !up ascii_zimbabwe
BingoBoingo: !!up ascii_zimbabwe
deedbot: ascii_zimbabwe voiced for 30 minutes.
ascii_zimbabwe: ty BingoBoingo .
ascii_zimbabwe: fiber dead. zoolag and asciilifeform down until tomorrow noon at earliest.
BingoBoingo: OMG and I, I live in a rural backwater?!
ascii_zimbabwe: BingoBoingo: what's the record uptime on your node ?
BingoBoingo: ~4 weeks
BingoBoingo: And then goes down to back up blockchain and block index
ascii_zimbabwe: why the hell would you back up a node ?
trinque: because trb demons not fully enumerated
BingoBoingo: Because paranoia?
ascii_zimbabwe: 'dumpblock' it.
BingoBoingo: ABout block index getting corrupted and resync hell if power blips in wrong way that exceeds otherwise ample batteries
ascii_zimbabwe: (index regens when you 'eatblock')
BingoBoingo: I have yet to bolt that on.
ascii_zimbabwe: anyway i suppose it's probably time to build that mircea_popescutron.
ascii_zimbabwe: (where failed pipe silently falls back on next pipe, and next, and so on.)
ascii_zimbabwe: i dun have this now only because it doesn't play well with trb.
ascii_zimbabwe: and not, as is not hard to guess, because lacking the pipes.
ascii_zimbabwe: pipes - can be had.
ascii_zimbabwe: popescutrons take actual sweat to build.
ascii_zimbabwe: esp. since i dun use konsoomer - or ciscotronic - net hardware.
ascii_zimbabwe: anyway, laters.
ben_vulpes: buddy of mine builds, sells and operates linux boxes that mux net connections together for durable connections
ben_vulpes: also leases you the line-of-sight for the top of your building, and that connection
ben_vulpes: and can sell you the cell connection
Framedragger: << okay okay i'll disable the "be able to spit out multiple lines" thing on bot until a saner thing is conjured (like being able to send multiple lines to some user via privmsg). if you have to manually edit urls every time that's just crazy
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-08: [00:39:18] <mircea_popescu> now ima have to police my urls o.
Framedragger: ftr there's now a kind of deployment process so i have to make changes in dev branch, make a commit, and then pull from a separate repo which has the dev branch as its upstream. AND I LIKE IT THAT WAY!!1
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-07: [10:05:58] <Framedragger> incidentally, how would one go about doing development across branches in V? or is that fiat fancy to be banished from all that is good? :)
trinque: Framedragger: your branches are merely pointers to different heads in a tree
trinque: V asks you which head you'd like to press
trinque: "automatic merging" meanwhile isn't even a thing. that two hunks in a file didn't collide has no bearing on whether they semantically ought to coexist.
trinque: human's job
Framedragger: i do see your point. and, sure, branches are pointers to heads
Framedragger: okay, no more multi-line quotes, for now.
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-07: [09:34:23] <Framedragger> to*
Framedragger: also, anchor-based line specification is preferred over "from:" -
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-07: [09:50:09] <Framedragger> !#hello
shinohai: !~up GoldBoriska
jhvh1: shinohai: Error: I need to be at least halfopped to voice someone.
shinohai: !!Up GoldBoriska
deedbot: GoldBoriska voiced for 30 minutes.
GoldBoriska: !!register 99F6B4D0DC13971D331B0FCFE4F1813EA44CB574
deedbot: Import failed for 99F6B4D0DC13971D331B0FCFE4F1813EA44CB574.
GoldBoriska: !register 99F6B4D0DC13971D331B0FCFE4F1813EA44CB574
shinohai: GoldBoriska: sent you pm
mircea_popescu: << do we even have an yumpblock, bro ?
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-08: [04:39:50] <ascii_zimbabwe> 'dumpblock' it.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: just so you know, no need to manually alter urls yourself anymore. unless you have a fetish for that, of course!
mircea_popescu: and why not ?
Framedragger: why no need?
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-08: [10:47:11] <Framedragger> also, anchor-based line specification is preferred over "from:" -
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-08: [10:47:11] <Framedragger> also, anchor-based line specification is preferred over "from:" -
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-08: [10:46:52] <Framedragger> okay, no more multi-line quotes, for now.
mircea_popescu: << if you use special order gear the correct move is to put it in the last layer. not like YOUR ROUTER is going down. having the collection of pipes work on heathen hardware is fine ; and until and unless you actually replace all internet infrastructure with s.nsa gear, your sweat used here is sweat wasted.
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-08: [04:46:59] <ascii_zimbabwe> esp. since i dun use konsoomer - or ciscotronic - net hardware.
mircea_popescu: learn to not waste sweat, be amazed at extra hands growing out of you!
mircea_popescu: Framedragger tell you what, if i'm on any page like that and i right click an url it gives me a fucked up thing that dun work rather than a link to the thing i right clicked on. so i'm stuck processing them further.
mircea_popescu: as seen yesterday
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: gotcha. will simply things. unnecessary complexity indeed
mircea_popescu: << explain what you mean by "development across branches"
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-08: [08:40:14] <scriba> Logged on 2016-09-07: [10:05:58] <Framedragger> incidentally, how would one go about doing development across branches in V? or is that fiat fancy to be banished from all that is good? :)
shinohai: I thought the purpose of V was to excise git-think from the mind.
mircea_popescu: yes, but ideally without leaving any root. so it's best to fully understand what he wants to do first.
mircea_popescu: "don't go to frat party barefoot, here's a car" is a shitload better than "don't go to frat party barefoot, here's the bus to church"
mircea_popescu: (and ftr : the "faster" angle is a minor concern here. human on foot ought to do ~10-12kph ; there's no guarantee car manages to do half that. meanwhile, the "not cutting your soles to shreds" IS a major concern.)
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: there is an implied assumption here of a "large enough" codebase (deliberately vague quantifier here). why i'm using it for scriba: 'cause i like it; and the latter's not a great argument. *but* if you have a large enough project with multiple people working on it, then:
mircea_popescu: "i like it" is a great argument.
Framedragger: 1) you may want to retain several versions of the thing you're developing - production, testing environment, development, some-large-feature-im-working-on-thats-currently-breaking-everything
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: well... yeah, maybe :)
mircea_popescu: you make special sigs for these cases.
Framedragger: 2) while automatic merges mask deeper problems (as trinque may have implied) and may or may not be cancer, having many developers be able to work on the same codebase and later easily solve code conflicts is fucking *great*
mircea_popescu: yeah. here's the thing :
Framedragger: right. perhaps it's a matter of writing scripts to automate this stuff for V.
mircea_popescu: no, no. listen :
mircea_popescu: V is a publishing mechanism. it allows people to interact that don't know each other. it is very much like bitcoin : to achieve this glorious ends it has some costs.
mircea_popescu: you and your coworker will likely not need, or want to eat the overhead, of keeping track of who owes who coffee via blockchain. also we don'tgive a shit, sort it out yourselves.
Framedragger: (i understand it's not supposed to make any wanna-be-git development easy)
Framedragger: right.
mircea_popescu: so collaboration, inasmuch as it's a private act (your tulpas, your friends, w/e) needn't be on v ; just like it needn't be on github, or on git. lots of code development happens on the holy napkin.
Framedragger: shit, i just got what you're trying to say - i'm slow. it's only a publishing mechanism. how to collaborate internally is another matter. yes, nice separation of concerns. (though i suspect people have thought how to do proper collaboration in V as well - emails with vdiffs etc)
mircea_popescu: all this said : if you are using v, then the correct way to use v for this purpose is, to make multi signatures. there's "his lordship framedragger, of the most serene republic". there can also be "this'll fuck you up".
mircea_popescu: if people want to have a working product, or evaluate your person, they will put the first in their sig files.
mircea_popescu: but if they want to work with you on X, there's nothing to keep them from putting the 2nd in a - presumably - different environment.
mircea_popescu: the advantages of V remain, such as automatic conflict resolution.
mircea_popescu: because it's impossible to write conflicts into V.
Framedragger: right. i *think* i get it. i mean, fair enough. and i should try to publish with it huh.
Framedragger: (multiple sigs, okok.)
mircea_popescu: (incidentally - "conflicts", as a git/github concept are both a) a direct equivalent of doublespends and b) a very convenient and for this reason perhaps deliberate rock under which to hide from responsibility
mircea_popescu: because wener kock's incredibly cheeky "i fucked it all up ha-ha!" is not coming out of the martian spaceship. it's coming out of - hey, we already "solve" conflicts hurr.)
mircea_popescu: Framedragger is there a remainder ?
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: you mean in the sense of a logical "third"? i'm not sure. i guess i get it conceptually, re. conflicts; but on a more mundane practical level, conflicts happen because, say, two people implemented some particular thing a bit differently; or their feature touched upon code from another place which was also being worked at; whatever
mircea_popescu: no, in the sense "that's all nice and good, but here's what i still want to do and it's not covered"
Framedragger: i don't see why this necessarily yields some kind of conceptual moral failure or whatever
mircea_popescu: ah, that sort of conflict is to be resolved talmudically : they both review the code, jointly issue a version./
mircea_popescu: it takes a bit more time, but it guarantees a result MUCH better than current.
mircea_popescu: the way i see it is, kids today are like, overexcited.
mircea_popescu: they put in 80% of the effort, scoop out 20% of the ore.
mircea_popescu: dude. add a 10%, get THREE TIMES YOUR CURRENT RESULTS
mircea_popescu: i am willing to bet you that in any case as we imagine ehre, where two competent coders rushed like teenage athletes to stripper cunt and each implemented slighly variant solutions to the same problem,
mircea_popescu: if they put in the extra half hour to write a joint statement of their individual solutions they'd produce code that'd shame gabriel.
mircea_popescu: i don't mean laddel, i mean the other one.
Framedragger: you may be just right; fwiw i have the same inkling feeling, hm
Framedragger: "overengineering minutia and spending cognitive resources on bullshit" - maybe
mircea_popescu is slowly turning into an ancient dragon of the "i hate your kind ; i just don't hate you personally. yet." persuasion.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger if it's minutia why are you writing it ?
mircea_popescu: the only definition of minutia acceptable here is "it's in the stdlib dude"
Framedragger: well fwiw i'm not overusing it. i don't subscribe to the "resolve cosmetic conflicts by doing more redundant work" thing, either;and i don't do it
Framedragger: i understand that i'd be more internally..consistent if i just ditched the *whole* thing, however.
mircea_popescu: overusing who ? and what's a cosmetic conflict ?
thestringpuller: ;;seen shinohai
thestringpuller: is gribble not voiced?
shinohai: !~seen shinohai
jhvh1: shinohai: shinohai was last seen in #trilema 24 minutes and 43 seconds ago: <shinohai> I thought the purpose of V was to excise git-think from the mind.
Framedragger: cosmetic conflict = differently arranged lines or multiple implementations of some simplistic algorithm; overusing the whole "develop in multiple branches and merge things and stuff" thing. sorry - multitasking; trying to eradicate this habit fwiw.
mircea_popescu: i multitask too, what. nothign wrong with it.
thestringpuller: What happened to not banning gribble! Don't disenfranchise the nice bot!
mircea_popescu: i didn't ban it ?
thestringpuller: i'm jk'ing
thestringpuller: y so srs
shinohai: Nothing, mircea_popescu decided to light fire under shinohai 's ass with bickening article I suppose
mircea_popescu: Framedragger i'm not the end all be all in project management for computer software. however, it seems to me "differently arranged lines" is a fucking weird problem to have. really, you can arbitrarily sort programs ? in what language, html ?
mircea_popescu: in general people working on the same (large enough as you said) codebase should have the courtesy to use the same spacing and coding conventions etc.
mircea_popescu: it is prolly best practice to have all serious V projects include a "conventions" file where to list all this. "1. tabs not spaces, bitch!" etc.
mircea_popescu: sort-of like css for the editor if you will.
mircea_popescu: actually fuck, v projects should prolly come with emacs .el file
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: no disagreement there; just pointing out that sometimes small arrangement disagreements still prop up; say, different order of variable initialization (which otherwise bears no actual significance); etc. of course one *could* have a convention spec so precise taht it would include things like "if there is arbitrary order of initialization of $x then default to alphanumerical order".
mircea_popescu: for instance. it is, after all, coding. order is not contrary to results.
mircea_popescu: the problems start when phf will get more people to do knuth style literature
mircea_popescu: but hey, reading each other's novellas is the whole fucking point anywya.
mircea_popescu: incidentally Framedragger the problem of "we'll just initialize in a soup" is a lot deeper than previously thought. in a merciless language like C, the fact that we're the first to come up with the "fucking initialize in alphabetical roder!" is indicative of the brain rot.
mircea_popescu: how do i check if kth of n elements was or was not initialized ? read a list n-1 long ?
mircea_popescu: this is kindergarten-level stupid.
mircea_popescu: half the shit you do with c is check whether something was initialized properly. HALF!
asciilifeform: achtung, panzers!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu, trinque, et al:
mircea_popescu: ("oh but mp, compiler should check!" "yeah, and your mom should have checked.")
Framedragger: look at that one person knows to actually include human readable timestamp into the inside of a pgp signed message which deals with timing-sensitive info!!!
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: that's a good point!
mircea_popescu: lol they changed your pooled ip ? sad!
Framedragger: nasa's coding manual (which doesn't allow recursive code - because the rovers are, you know, sorta far away, and you write in a turing complete language) may have it - i wonder
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it happens every year or so
asciilifeform: theoretically i could pay to have it not happen, but for the same cost could get 2-3 more subscriptions to various isp...
mircea_popescu: in other lulz, /me has profile on bdsm site. a good third of the others checking it out are self-styled dominant dudes.
Framedragger: hahahahah
Framedragger: they become submissive by entering mp aura zone
Framedragger: that, i can imagine
mircea_popescu: but to be perfectly fair - it's pretty much the mental default of bois, so. the 1 in 10ish or so dominant chick is probably a larger percentage of the respective population.
asciilifeform: << oh ferfuxxsake, has mircea_popescu been drinking today or wat
a111: Logged on 2016-09-08 12:59 mircea_popescu: << do we even have an yumpblock, bro ?
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-08: [04:39:50] <ascii_zimbabwe> 'dumpblock' it.
asciilifeform: $s dumpblock
a111: 54 results for "dumpblock",
mircea_popescu: btw Framedragger, you realise that once i link you, the bots will notice, and you'll eventually get the phf treatment, a month or w/e later ?
mircea_popescu: trilema serves bout 10-20mn pages / month to bots.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: preparin' for it.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform jus' sayin', it's a little more elbow grease to dump and eat the whole blockchain than to just make a copy
asciilifeform: not really, no
asciilifeform: i posted a bash 3liner a while ago
mircea_popescu: how long does it take ?
Framedragger: i heard there was, like, a way to, like, store results from a dynamic system, to be served in a static manner
Framedragger: but in all seriousness, i'm a bit afraid, but it may be good education for me. not that i see this as a game to be fucked up at the first step
asciilifeform: and we had this entire test where my node ate a total dumpblock of mircea_popescu's
asciilifeform: recall?
mircea_popescu: i do recall.
mircea_popescu: mebbe you're right, this should be advertised moar.
a111: Logged on 2015-06-30 19:12 ascii_field: in other nyooz, 'dumpblock' for the sums.txt.gz mircea_popescu set 0..n and subsequent 'eatblock' in brand-new stator - works
mircea_popescu: i have a flag about it but it doesn't link to anything apparently so i dunno what i was thinking.
asciilifeform: see also 'blkcut'.
asciilifeform: $s blkcut
asciilifeform: 'One could even sync via 'netcat' from a trusted phriend...'
mircea_popescu: you're going to corrupt all my words people into code people, and then we'll have what, eliza write qntra ?
mircea_popescu: you're a bad seed alfie.
asciilifeform: phf's has the canonical.
asciilifeform: 'specialization is for insects' (tm) (r) (heinlein)
mircea_popescu: this dictatorship has gone to shit.
Framedragger: oh yeah that's a decent quote. quotebot?
mircea_popescu: well, bash/quotebot rather than imdb quote db i think.
mircea_popescu: so ever since i wrote that thing about argentine retards wearing hoodies, i have this ongoing debate with... some people. it mostly consists of stuff like,
asciilifeform: finally found it.
asciilifeform: << you don't need automatics. separate v trees are simply kept in separate dirs, etc.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-08 13:16 Framedragger: right. perhaps it's a matter of writing scripts to automate this stuff for V.
asciilifeform: the thing is deliberately designed 'ms-dos'-style
asciilifeform: all changes in state are explicit (you vdiff ... > file.vdiff), etc.
Framedragger: yeah that i really like. reminds of that bitcoin wallet spec - no non-ascii parts
mircea_popescu: incidentally, asciilifeform : we'll end up with a v-stdlib won't we ? prolly starting with v-cryptolib as a nucleus.
mircea_popescu really has little use for the shit currently shipping with c as a stdlib.
Framedragger: dude, a first-on-the-planet decent cryptolib would be nice
mircea_popescu: Framedragger he's working on it, if you didn't guess from all the "scriptable cryptosystem" talk.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: at the moment musl is my stdlib.
asciilifeform: it is by far the fastest horse in this glue factory.
Framedragger: (there's djb's NaCl, but it's EC)
asciilifeform: lelraiser
mircea_popescu: Framedragger the very notion of a cryptolib being cryptoimplementation shows stupid at the seams.
mircea_popescu: here's a stray thought : if i can't implement EC in a page on your cryptolib IT IS NOT A LIB!
mircea_popescu: it may be a SHIB, but that's all.
Framedragger: fwiw iirc that lib exposes abstracted parts; but, yeah, no easy way to change those internal parts
mircea_popescu: "this is the tyre store" "do you have tyres ?" "yes, here's an apple audio jack" "this is not a tyre" "allegedly."
mircea_popescu: "how about you know, an actual car tyre ?" "sorry bro. use the headphones or build your own store."
asciilifeform: the old cryptolib, by this token, was gmp. as seen here,
Framedragger: also, while it's not exactly contradictory it's still funny what status bitcoin holds in tmsr's infrastructure, while being based on EC
mircea_popescu: tell you what, if we're ever shipwrecked on a deserted island with hillary, we'll fuck hillary.
Framedragger: but, yeah, shit code all over the place
Framedragger: that does sound like a plan. total failover scenario #1 recorded, then
Framedragger: asciilifeform: "Everything pertaining to Automake was nuked" - so nice. i used to doubt (or maybe i still do - in itself a healthy habit, perhaps) whether i didn't *get* something fundamental in modern s/w development. (maybe i still don't, of course). "shitloads of build targets and convoluted build chain? maybe there's no way more elegant? i must be a truly stupid person."
Framedragger: psychologically harmful culture, this
mircea_popescu: no, it's just the sad effect of runaway tolerance.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: i went to war against the 'culture' long ago.
mircea_popescu: take the alice character from earlier. the inclination of ~anyone, other than me/us/whatever would be to say "well, let her be, maybe who knows one day does something useful". except it does nothing useful, it only clutters things.
shinohai: !!up GoldBoriska
Framedragger: i think my tolerance levels are (finally) decreasing in some kind of accelerated fashion, hopefully in line with growing experience, but there's still ways to go. but yeah, war it is
deedbot: GoldBoriska voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: there's no difference between random dude with bizarro identity issues and random lib with bizarro code footprint
asciilifeform: Framedragger: the linked item is illustrative of how to flamethrower away automake.
mircea_popescu: they're both things, devoid of "rights", or importance or anything of that nature. and they're both worse than useless, which is to say eat more than produce.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-08 13:35 mircea_popescu: it is prolly best practice to have all serious V projects include a "conventions" file where to list all this. "1. tabs not spaces, bitch!" etc.
asciilifeform: atm we're stuck with the extremely braindamaged style of the original author.
asciilifeform: because ain't nobody gonna read the WHOLE THING just to audit a stylemorphed copy.
mircea_popescu: you mean re bitcoin ?
asciilifeform: strictly it.
mircea_popescu: we were discussing new programs
asciilifeform: new - then yes.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-08 13:41 mircea_popescu: half the shit you do with c is check whether something was initialized properly. HALF!
asciilifeform: 'the problem is that neither Unix nor Windows _actually_ support either C or C++, but they manage to make them work, with downright incredible effort. if you look inside the libraries and see how a system call actually works and how much it differs from the C calling convention and usage, you'd be a fool not to revise your opinion. and _does_ an operating system that forces the programmer to check to see whether the operating syste
asciilifeform: m did what it was asked to do every damn time you ask it to do anything actually give any relevant form of support to anyone?'
mircea_popescu: then again, trust-but-verify is the correct approach anyway.
mircea_popescu: outside of actula hard guarantees (v does not allow writing conflicts), that's all you have.
phf: probably sci-hub defense
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> tell you what, if we're ever shipwrecked on a deserted island with hillary, we'll fuck hillary. << think she coughs now? wait until she chokes on all that dick!
asciilifeform: << in other noose. (stein is a crackpot pres candidate in usa)
asciilifeform: elsewhere, << dude does 16y in american prison, let out, wants (yes) back in, they won't take him, so he shoots a few cops
asciilifeform: more interestingly, : 'Jund al Aqsa, an al Qaeda front group in Syria, has released a video showing one of its small drones dropping a bomb on Syrian regime forces in Hama province. The unguided bomb doesn’t appear to have been especially effective, but the video is noteworthy because it documents the Sunni jihadis’ further experimentation with explosives....'
asciilifeform: ^ next-to-last photo esp. lulzy
asciilifeform: (why is the thing horizontal??)
asciilifeform: 'This video has been removed for violating YouTube's Terms of Service.' << also lul.
Framedragger: hey-ho, how about some frivolous over-engineering:
Framedragger: caching implied but not explicit
asciilifeform: i like mircea_popescu's idea - of wholly-uncoupled redundant logtrons - moar.
asciilifeform: there is no reason for all of these things to be plugged into one another.
Framedragger: there could be multiple monstrosities like this, tho!
asciilifeform: what i meant was that i see 0 reason why any 1 of the multiple items ought to be of this form.
asciilifeform: but if Framedragger wants to make one - hey, why not.
Framedragger: itch for over-machineering is a dangerous one
Framedragger: i prolly agree asciilifeform
asciilifeform: complicated mechanisms breed cockroaches.
mircea_popescu: aand in other lelz, "I can't imagine any foreigner writing down 3 lines of non error text for my life of it. Greeks are not easy to be mastered and he is using them without a mistake. what is considered to be an exception even in between Greeks."
mircea_popescu: learning. it's an impossible. so say the greeks.
asciilifeform: << mircea_popescu when the girls bring you a cup of tea, how would you like to ALWAYS have to sniff first to make sure that it is tea and not liquishit or piss ?
a111: Logged on 2016-09-08 14:20 mircea_popescu: then again, trust-but-verify is the correct approach anyway.
mircea_popescu: TRUST-and-verify.
asciilifeform: well there is no room to 'trust' in c.
mircea_popescu: and yes, i spot check the work of even the most senior girl.
asciilifeform: SPOT check.
asciilifeform: but, e.g., fopen(...) can ALWAYS return martian rubbish.
mircea_popescu: trust-but-verify doesn't specifically mean "always check".
asciilifeform: and so even a simple c proggy by a competent pair of hands is a MASSIVE ball of check-and-fail-as-such-or-such-or-such...
mircea_popescu: but yes, part of hte problem with extant c, as a language but more importantly as a paradigm and society, is that there's no way to build trust.
mircea_popescu: ie, young brazillian chick WILL have to have her cooking checked for shit, because apparently wash hands is not universally comprehended in brazil.
asciilifeform: i'd simply colour brazil brown on the big map in the map room and move on...
mircea_popescu: why ? great gals.
asciilifeform: great but shit on hands eh.
mircea_popescu: it's a skill, she can learn that like anything else.
mircea_popescu: you would be surprised how many girls have to be taught how to wash.
mircea_popescu: and no, northern hemisphere is not exceptional. us especially not exceptional.
asciilifeform: actually i'm not surprised, i saw with own eyes.
mircea_popescu: apparently people somehow assume younguns just know this, somehow, through osmosis.
mircea_popescu: needless to say, the only thing that occurs through osmosis is an unwarranted conviction that she knows how to do it, and a block towards examination.
asciilifeform: c (but more importantly, the c ~machine~, with its single hardware stack) encourages, and just about mandates the 'crashing is acceptable because there is NO practical way to handle ALL error conditions sanely' idiocy.
asciilifeform: stroustrup ~perceived~ the problem, but did not, in his cpp, solve it - cpp has 'exceptions' but lacks, e.g., common lisp's 'unwind-protect' ( ) and so error conditions still result in rubbish
asciilifeform: (because there is no way to guarantee cleanup)
asciilifeform: nor does c-machine enable restarts (how many programming folk even ~CONCEIVE~ of the notion of meaningfully RESUMING a crashed proggy ?)
mircea_popescu: young mps idea of what a compiler does was, "well it basically completely unwinds the code, so it's all flat, and then checks everything". then young mp saw the first "runtime error" and locked. then told teacher this isn't real programming and he's not interested.
mircea_popescu: the position has, broadly speaking, endured.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: haha just found - may pique one's fancy
asciilifeform: young mircea_popescu , like many young folk, like, e.g., young-asciilifeform , and young-asciipet, all had this correct idea.
asciilifeform: because it is a pretty obvious and sane thing.
Framedragger: (ah, no, i take it back: mostly boring.)
mircea_popescu: moreover, if it DOESN'T do that, then wtf does it do.
mircea_popescu: this is like you know, "this coffee grinder - doesn't grind coffee". this is pretty serious - what the fuck does it do then ?
mircea_popescu: "well... here's a list." "fuck you."
asciilifeform: eh it grinds coffee. but also grinds fingernails, cockroaches, fingers.
asciilifeform: whatever ends up in.
mircea_popescu: and it's my job to find the grinds in the kitchen once it's done.
asciilifeform: also sometimes tries to grind rusty nails and burns motor
mircea_popescu: check it out, twenny bux bought me an egg hunt machine.
asciilifeform: a c-grinder will also, should its lid come off, happily continue to fly (yes) around the kitchen, grinding whatever ends up in its path, drywall, chairs, people, van goghs, stradivaris, crates of ammunition, dogs, dildos.
phf: above is ascii's (rather respectable) list of important items and valuables
mircea_popescu: "but mp, if you don't want ground ammo just don't keep crates of ammo in your kitchen" "o ya ? how about i don't keep a grinder."
mircea_popescu: DCPvGSCoADD. << the list.
mircea_popescu: dcp versus gsc or add.
asciilifeform: ' fauns, beings of double sex, brutes with six-fingered hands, sirens, hippocentaurs, gorgons, harpies, incubi, dragopods, minotaurs, lynxes, pards, chimeras, cynophales who darted fire from their nostrils, crocodiles, polycaudate, hairy serpents, salamanders, horned vipers, tortoises, snakes, two-headed creatures whose backs were armed with teeth, hyenas, otters, crows, hydrophora with saw-tooth horns, frogs, gryphons, monkeys, dog-
asciilifeform: heads, leucrota, manticores, vultures, paranders, weasels, dragons, hoopoes, owls, basilisks, hypnales, presters, spectafici, scorpions, saurians, whales, scitales, amphisbenae, iaculi, dipsases, green lizards, pilot fish, octopi, morays, and sea turtles.' -- eco's 'name of the rose'
mircea_popescu: for the curious, leucrota is what happens when a hyena fucks a lioness.
mircea_popescu: this is no small matter, as lions will kill hyenas unprovoked.
asciilifeform: well they do occupy overlapping meat niche
asciilifeform: so, in 'western' parlance, 'there ain't room enough in this here town for the two of'em'
mircea_popescu: (the animal doesn't actually exists outside of plinius, but still.)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not only that, but hyena is the more efficient.
asciilifeform: see also mega-classic ambroise pare's 'monstres et prodiges'
asciilifeform: there is an english for folks who need.
mircea_popescu: anyway. hyenas are not cats, like lions are, but dogs. even if they've adapted into as much catness as possible. so the two aren't actually sexually compatible.
asciilifeform: noshit.jpg
asciilifeform: scorpion doesn't fuck lion on actual planet3 either.
asciilifeform: but in medieval lysergic dreams...
mircea_popescu: nah, the manticore is not the result of fux.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, i'd be unsurprised if there's a market in africa for lion prostitution.
mircea_popescu can readily see how the "african warrior" idi amin mentality would pay to fuck a lioness.
asciilifeform: iirc they prefer to eat'em
asciilifeform: pretty lulzy, motherfucking 16TH CENTURY b00k, is NOWHERE on the net.
asciilifeform: NOWHERE.
mircea_popescu: the net has more important things to attend to.
phf: we had this thread
asciilifeform: derpy schoolboys' 'papers' on it - yes.
asciilifeform: the b00k - nope.
mircea_popescu: wouldn't the book be unfair competition ?
asciilifeform: apparently.
mircea_popescu: hyena knows, alfie.
asciilifeform: Memetically Uncomfortable!1111 (tm) (r) (alice_)
mircea_popescu: how did that go, "by the claw we know this lion"
asciilifeform: at some point i'ma scan the thing.
mircea_popescu: incidentally : man and lion have rather comparable penii in size. except the cat, like most cats, has keratin penile spikes.
mircea_popescu: amusingly enough, this condition also exists in humans, albeit rare.
asciilifeform: aha, 'locking thread'
Framedragger: << out of curiosity, what book would that be? (not the fictional one within eco's name of the rose i assume??)
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-08: [16:03:08] <asciilifeform> pretty lulzy, motherfucking 16TH CENTURY b00k, is NOWHERE on the net.
asciilifeform: nono, that one was linked earlier.
asciilifeform: pare's.
asciilifeform: the one with sea monsters, two-headed children, etc.
asciilifeform: leucrota.
Framedragger: oooh, interesting, ok
a111: Logged on 2016-09-08 15:56 asciilifeform: see also mega-classic ambroise pare's 'monstres et prodiges'
Framedragger: ah damn i must have heard of him in a lithuanian context but i probably know nothing of him, even though evidently i should. /shame
Framedragger: pretty epic dude
asciilifeform: among first people to seriously study birth defects.
asciilifeform: i have the tome here.
mircea_popescu pictures someone who actually feels shame over not having read the references here. imagine! you got "i used to fuck lions in kindergarten" alf ; native russian poet afficionado and whatever else phf is, then there's the cinematic tradition, and the...
asciilifeform: iirc asciilifeform was the one with the ru poets, phf - with french poets and lions, mircea_popescu - with cinematic. etc
asciilifeform: but yes.
mircea_popescu: what poets!
Framedragger: eh, the chan is educational and therefore useful on that merit alone, and that's nice
mircea_popescu: "Whilst the misguided follower climbs with pain mountains of whimseys, heaped in his own brain, stumbling from thought to thought, falls headlong down into doubt's boundless sea where, like to drown, books bear him up awhile, and make him try to swim with bladders of philosophy."
a111: Logged on 2016-09-07 19:27 asciilifeform: 'AirPods will use Infrared sensors to detect when they’re in your ears, playing only when they’re in your ears. The setup process is super easy — connect the AirPods once to your iPhone, and the AirPods instantly sync over iCloud to your other devices. From there, you never worry about them again.' >> oblig. >>
asciilifeform: in other olds, 'However, after two days of eating MealSquares, I was desperate for anything else. I wolfed down my tupperware of weird gruel almost immediately upon getting to the office on Wednesday morning. It was the opposite of the problem I'd had with the MealSquares, which took me so long to get down that I wasn't physically able to consume enough calories in one day to properly function.'
asciilifeform: 'By this time the smell of any other food gave me hunger pangs; I walked past a pizza place and nearly cried.'
asciilifeform: !!up malcomxxx
deedbot: malcomxxx voiced for 30 minutes.
malcomxxx: How i can made btc ? can some one help me out ?
diana_coman: malcomxxx, see #eulora
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: << mega-lol: 'These air pod headphone things aren't visible enough to signal to men that I don't want them to talk to me'
asciilifeform: and also: 'The beauty of the headphone cable is just like the beauty of a tampon string: it is there to help you keep track of a very important item, and help you fish it out of whatever nook and cranny it might have fallen into.'
mircea_popescu: which is most of the reason chicks even get headphones.
asciilifeform pictures the peter thiel call: t. cook's phone rings. thiel: 'ipnoje is not surveillatronic enough. hitler is displeased. the lien on your left ball will be called in.' cook: 'what do we do' thiel: 'well, you could make'em wear earphones with cameras' cook: 'brilliant, 360 degree coverage' thiel: 'it'd better be out by september'
asciilifeform: incidentally i have nfi whether that dot is camera or just ir probe.
asciilifeform: haven't yet sawed open a set of these.
asciilifeform: anyone who has - please post here.
asciilifeform: and, ahahahahaha,
asciilifeform: at the 'pgp conference',
asciilifeform: '16:45 – 17:00 Short talk: Analyzing Keyserver Data Hanno Böck'
asciilifeform: this friday.
mircea_popescu: curious if he ends up heckled.
asciilifeform: doubt it.
asciilifeform: afaik room full of hand-picked heathens there.
mircea_popescu: !!key nooblet
deedbot: No such key.
asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu knows anyone in or near cologne, could try to crash party.
mircea_popescu: you seem to be ~the only one who cares about that particular fanclub though.
asciilifeform: 'Plagiarize !! Let no one else's work evade your eyes ! Remember why the good Lord made your eyes ! So don't shade your eyes !' (tm) (r) (tom lehrer)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i do not regard the now-explicit cooperation of koch with boeck as uninteresting.
mircea_popescu: sure, butthat's somewhat of a different kettle of fish.
asciilifeform: previously the weevils were largely careful to avoid being seen in one room.
asciilifeform: now - not so much.
mircea_popescu: of course they gotta join forces. they stand no chance.
asciilifeform: a while ago i briefly considered showing up at the 'pgp conference' but decided against. there is a difference between entomologist and those fellas who fuck wasp hives
mircea_popescu: you know this exists btw ?
asciilifeform: naturally
mircea_popescu: cricket fuckers also.
asciilifeform: it was posted here >1ce
mircea_popescu: apparently the bestioles deliver quite the byte
asciilifeform: (though for some reason i can't seem to turn up the log)
asciilifeform: ru prison has miniature version also, upturned glass with single wasp/fly/whatever stings
PeterL: speaking of books, mircea_popescu have you read "The Prince" by Machiavelli? I have been reading it and for some reason it made me think of you (though I expect you would read it in the original Italian?)
asciilifeform: (well, mug, there is no glass in the prison normally)
asciilifeform: and does anyone else find it lulzy that boeck's talk is 15m long ?
mircea_popescu: yeah i read it back in school at some point
asciilifeform: even in american school 'the prince' is read. or, was.
trinque: is.
trinque: shit I'm old; was.
mircea_popescu: i found the preface more interesting than the tome, myself.
mircea_popescu: iirc this is even discussed on trilema somewhere.
asciilifeform: btw, bock's talk was announced , it looks like, 7 hours ago.
asciilifeform: such flattery.
asciilifeform: the derps were seriously worried that... what ?
asciilifeform: that mircea_popescu would send rocket full of weasels ?
asciilifeform: rabid capybaras ?
asciilifeform: in other noose, remember the 'riseup' derpatron? the one with the, what, dozen phuctur pops ? well,
asciilifeform: $s riseup
mircea_popescu: not worried as much as you know, "they care about us" sorta delusion.
a111: Logged on 2016-04-30 01:34 deedbot: [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 9 divides RSA Moduli belonging to 'randomnoize (Tor relay operator) <>; randomnoize (Tor relay operator) <>; ' -
asciilifeform: and meanwhile, '"The Web-of-Trust is a geek's instrument", "Hard to explain" says Werner Koch'
trinque: ahaha
trinque: I don't know what they think this does.
trinque: raises anti-awareness I suppose
shinohai: Use our system, and leave the pesky key-handling to us!
asciilifeform: elsewhere: esteemed mr boeck burns^H^H^H^H^Hdiscovers
asciilifeform: 'private keys found on AVM Fritz!Box firmware images' << some router.
mircea_popescu: in other but entirely similar news,
asciilifeform: the #1 entry is gut-bustingly lulzy to asciilifeform , because i spend ~half year auditing a multilinear-map thing for $rupturefarm, and even was sent to a 'conference' where 'serious cryptographers' did not even blink when someone walked in with a proof that whole thing was crock of shit
asciilifeform: #3 ditto.
asciilifeform: lel, half the list.
asciilifeform: mass delusion, this.
asciilifeform: << herr boeck drops privkeys : 'The data we are publishing consists of 331 certificates including the matching private key as well as 553 individual private keys. We've also included the names of products that contain the certificates/keys. Cryptographic keys that were not found in Internet-wide scan data ( and, HTTPS/SSH) are included as
asciilifeform: well. These might be used in other protocols such as EAP/802.1X, FTPS etc. The data we are publishing allows researchers to reproduce the results of our study, find more cases or cryptographic key reuse, attribute cryptographic keys to specific vendors/products, but also to develop tools for detecting and exploiting this vulnerability class in the course of penetration tests. Releasing the private keys is not something we take light
asciilifeform: ly as it allows global adversaries to exploit this vulnerability class on a large scale. However we think that any determined attacker can repeat our research and get the private keys from publicly available firmware with ease.'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: looks like they're going for a 'догоним и перегоним' tack re phuctor etc.
phf: asciilifeform: have you seen all those "hardware sources of randomness" devices that's been surfacing recently?
asciilifeform: phf: they've been surfacing for 20 years.
asciilifeform: phf: five bucks and a soldering iron buys you a very acceptable rng.
asciilifeform: (if you're comfortable with arithmetic)
asciilifeform: phf: for some reason everyone insists on SAME kind of idiocy
asciilifeform: no isolated power. usually no shield.
asciilifeform: digital oscillators right next to analogue circuit.
asciilifeform: virtually never any shield. etc.
asciilifeform: 'whitening.'
asciilifeform: $s whitening
a111: 51 results for "whitening",
asciilifeform: 'Data coming from true random number generators is never 100% random. I am aware of no exceptions. Whitening is required in all cases before the data is suitable for use in cryptography.' << from first link
phf: asciilifeform: obviously above links are purely boekware entomology
asciilifeform: from 2nd link : << illustrative of all of the ills
asciilifeform: the interesting bit is that no servant of hitler ever need formally commision 'boeckware' - it is produced 'naturally', by herd of teenage imbecile alice_s
asciilifeform: gotta love the UPGRADEABLE!11111 usb micros, too
ben_vulpes: << have you read trinque's logbot yet?
a111: Logged on 2016-09-08 15:24 Framedragger: hey-ho, how about some frivolous over-engineering:
asciilifeform: we have here an arguable case of 'что русскому хорошо, то немцу — смерть' -- they cannot risk to import sanity.
asciilifeform: so all of the boeckian products are recognizably similar in their nonsensical dance around the question
trinque: ben_vulpes: why would anyone read republican code when there are shithubs to pilfer and tape together
ben_vulpes: fella probably doesn't know the source is kicking around
ben_vulpes: of course he might! so i ask.
trinque: he does.
ben_vulpes: literacy means /literature/ trinque.
ben_vulpes: not /code/.
trinque: I. what?
trinque: no, read vpatches or gtfo.
ben_vulpes: no but hey this thing about kant
phf: i think it's an elaborate spoof of mp/ascii dialogues
trinque has nfi which thing about kant
trinque: but on the subj, I didn't put together a bot and the wot mechanics to like, run in there and make my name!
trinque: Framedragger: ^
trinque: it's plumbing work, and plumbing work we already lost once
trinque: this is one of the blessings of V.
trinque: if you *bother* to write something worth writing, you are free from that task thereafter
asciilifeform: this pill, like other pills, only works if YOU TAKE IT however.
asciilifeform: 'put between knees!' does not work.
asciilifeform: as mircea_popescu helpfully pointed out.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-23 18:49 mircea_popescu: pretty ridoinculous seeing how half the time i fuck girl with knees together.
Framedragger: << yeah i have! it's really neat. have you? :) the larger part of the code is in trinque's *ircbot*, btw. logbot plugs in very nicely. but fact of the matter is, would be orthogonal, i.e. the two can be devleoped independently, to a degree
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-08: [17:46:20] <ben_vulpes> << have you read trinque's logbot yet?
ben_vulpes: oh teh snark
Framedragger: well i'm just returning the snark eh :p
Framedragger: the "but kant" homage to mp (maybe?) made me lol btw :D
trinque has no idea what separating history citing and history collecting buys
trinque: you do realize also that freenode might as well be owned by hitler
trinque: having the www separate, yes
Framedragger: not in terms of bigbro collection stuff, but in terms of making it more difficult to ddos
trinque: also know that one properly configured nginx should be able to handle massive amounts of traffic
trinque: it's text you're serving, not porn vids
trinque: Framedragger: freenode rate limits messages; how am I going to ddos a bot
Framedragger: of course of course; but as was stated multiple times, it's about making things more *difficult* / costly for adversaries. you can always slippery slope into "such powerful adversary with infinite motivation" and win the argument - and that's legit, sure
Framedragger: find ip and ddos machine behind ip
Framedragger: thru other services and just plain syn flood or w/e
Framedragger: but, yeah, overthinking much? prolly....
shinohai: !~later tell BingoBoingo
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded.
trinque: Framedragger: hostmask hides IP if you want that, so get hostmask for your bot
Framedragger: it's not really reliable. but i may just be doing that slippery slope insane adversary thing myself here. :/
trinque: aha
trinque: better to clearly define the work, then solve simply and move on.
trinque: you will not fix TCP/IP with teh botz
trinque: ask asciilifeform
Framedragger: *sigh*. "that's boring". no, you're right, i agree.
mircea_popescu: and in other "what makes languages dumb",
mircea_popescu: !~translate ro to en "ati fost destituit"
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: You have been dismissed
mircea_popescu: aha. except there's no "you've been inmissed". the way words work in actual languages is that you institute (say a rule) and you destitute (eg a functionary).
mircea_popescu: meanwhile english is basically this language of some superficial twerps who noticed the effects (destitute, ie poor, right ? institute, ie, the building where they do them town things, right ?)
mircea_popescu: !~translate ro to en "ati fost concediat"
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: You have been fired
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: degeneration to monkey is directly observable with naked eye among the englishers
mircea_popescu: literally, you have been vacationed.
mircea_popescu: and so on ad libitum
shinohai: Would be funny to translate that as "You will now be destitute"
asciilifeform: take their 'losing' various features
mircea_popescu: shinohai lol. it's "you've been destituted" though. because you know, there's a functioning of past participle
mircea_popescu: and generally speaking grammatical categories are first and foremost categories OF MEANING
mircea_popescu: not arbitrary fucking labels and empty forms.
asciilifeform: monkey inheriting man's tools rips the 'excess' knobs off, first thing.
mircea_popescu: and then ends up predictably stupid in a certain way. /me thinks "environment" is not properly said to be a large factor - other than poor genetics of being sheepfuckers in the first place - in the apparition of SUTO.
asciilifeform: (man inheriting monkey land also spends time scraping off monkey turds, but process is only superficially similar)
mircea_popescu: it's not "the environment" vaguely like that. it is, first and foremost, the language.
mircea_popescu: english makes people stupid.
asciilifeform: even orlov had a series re subj
asciilifeform: it is a brain-melter to the poor natives, most of'em never get past own initial 'la la can't hear you' reaction
asciilifeform: and resist any attempt at a cure.
mircea_popescu: i'm not even sure there is a cure. "oh foreign languages are hard." "well of fucking course they're are, you frittered away your 3-5yo interval of brain plasticity on learning adspeak."
mircea_popescu: at least hungarians know they've been cursed with stupid.
shinohai: speek Americunt
mircea_popescu: then mp is all fucking annoyed, "wtf is with these idiots, they rip out some bit off culture, give it a name and strut around". doh. this is what the fucking language trains them to do in the first place.
mircea_popescu: "noun". what the everloving fuck "noun". you mean substantive ? "oh no mp, that's an adverb". "doubleplusmata."\
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anyway, re the derp circus : as long as you publish on the internet, there's going to be some "businessman" trying to republish your content, and spam it around. none of this is particulary surprising or worth the mention or anything. not like original publication isn't firmly established. so let them beat up the wall until they've had enough or the bezzle runs out, whichever.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i have 0 interest in garden-variety 'businessman of luxor', only in hitler's annointed poodles.
mircea_popescu: how do you distinguish.
asciilifeform: it is not especially hard to distinguish gavin from covertress
mircea_popescu: really ?
mircea_popescu: ironically, both eth and whatever-that-was got raped. i'm all ears, you picked like the worst examples conceivable.
asciilifeform: one starts on front page of völkischer beobachter and american tv, the other - sits in cafes sadly and wonders why it gets 51%ed for 7th time
mircea_popescu: ie, one stars in random-lj-x, other in random-lj-y ; one sits in cafes and wonders, other sits in cafes and wonders.
mircea_popescu: i see not this difference.
asciilifeform: there is certainly a wide 'gray zone' of buterinade between gavin and covertress .
mircea_popescu: gavin is ~a used cumsock.
asciilifeform: from the parking orbit of mircea_popescu's dirigible, somewhere past pluto, both look quite similar yes.
asciilifeform: for earthlings - less so.
trinque: one just won the hitler lottery
trinque: doesn't distinguish it
asciilifeform: trinque: there was no 'merit' implied in 'anointed poodle'
asciilifeform: y'know, sorta like how a train wreck is just another train wreck, unless it's ~YOUR~ train wreck
asciilifeform: and there's a chair up YOUR arse
PeterL: << you can say somebody was instituted into a position when they are given a job
a111: Logged on 2016-09-08 18:32 mircea_popescu: aha. except there's no "you've been inmissed". the way words work in actual languages is that you institute (say a rule) and you destitute (eg a functionary).
mircea_popescu: the only difference being that khaleed started life pretending to, and here i quote, "I am one of the agents sent by the high priest to bring as many of those who are interested in becoming a member of the Illuminati to the great Illuminati temple,am a traditional herbalist healer and no problem without a solution to me but I was ones like you I could not evening feed my family what kind of life was that to live I lived in po
mircea_popescu: verty until I saw an opportunity to be a member of the great Illuminati brotherhood and I took my chances and I have been a member for close to three years now and the higher you get the richer you become." whereas gavin started life pretending to be in charge of bitcoin.
mircea_popescu: upon examination it came out that neither have any relation to the thing they were posturing in front of.
mircea_popescu: 0 difference, really.
mircea_popescu: PeterL yes, some vestiges of sanity still remain.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you may find power analysis a useful tool in this discussion. what exactly CAN any of these do ?
mircea_popescu: because powerless.1 === powerless.2 even from an orbit more interior than pluto's.
asciilifeform: this leads into the sacramental question of why 'control the vertical and the horizontal! gott mit uns!111' is a thing at all.
mircea_popescu: it barely holds together as a thing, and adversarially only.
asciilifeform: the way i understand it, there is a population of folks susceptible to sanity. who, were they to show up here, by same happenstance, e.g., asciilifeform , did, would stand constructively on tmsr side.
mircea_popescu: "we control the vertical and the" "how come i can't have a fucking gallon of gas ?" "oh sorry about that... nothing we can do."
mircea_popescu: i doubt this.
asciilifeform: the objective of enemy is to keep'em 'in the dark & eatin' shit'
asciilifeform: which is what boeck et al are for.
mircea_popescu: the folks "susceptible to sanity" are like the women "susceptible to porn queening". honey, if they were gonna they'd have been doing it already.
mircea_popescu: the pretense that they may start any minute now is broadly speaking that - a pretense. who knows, maybe you send the advance fee.
mircea_popescu: anyway. i don't buy into this "people good but evil govenrment corrupts". as near as i can see, "people suck and government does the best it can, as their product."
mircea_popescu: ie, the dumb and deaf scion of a drunk and a whore.
asciilifeform: 'people suck but for a few ppm'
asciilifeform: boeck et al is to reduce the risk that taleb shows up here. etc
mircea_popescu: odds are that most of those "susceptible to sanity" are more or less caught in a prison of their own making, elliot style. would you blame isla vista for the guy's issues ?
mircea_popescu: there's ~0 risk taleb shows up here.
asciilifeform: the occasional prisoner does dig the proverbial spoon tunnel and makes a break for it.
mircea_popescu: yes, but not aged 60+
mircea_popescu: or to quote voltaire, "i'm too old to make new friends."
mircea_popescu: same reason al schwartz doesn't make his way here ; and same exact reason i dunno, lew rockwell can't pass my idiot filter.
mircea_popescu: being old sucks.
asciilifeform: the other thing about the boecks is that hitler maintains - quite successfully - an atmosphere of despair and intellectual death
PeterL: Guy in prison uses a spoon to dig tunnel out, pops up in a playground, jumps up and down shouting "I'm free, I'm free." A little girl walks up to him and says "So what? I'm four!"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform dude gtfo. "hitler maintains". tell you what, if i fill a room with depressive thirty-yo-crisis chicks it's gonna be that "the room" has "an atmosphere". then if i kick them out and in the same atmosphere introduce happy-go-lucky nineteen year olds, suddenly the same room "has an atmosphere" of juvenile enthusiasm.
mircea_popescu: wtf is this, "atmosphere". stop being an obnoxious bitch, that's the atmosphere.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: every time some dude goes 'i could try and spend 20yr and maybe come up with a sane basis for crypto --- or there's that bottle of whisky. and it looks moar like a deal' hitler wins.
mircea_popescu: wins what ?
asciilifeform: another 1000 years of reich, wat.
mircea_popescu: drunks' choices are theirs to make, what am i, borderline ?
asciilifeform: british soldiers carting in convoy of rotgut barrels to distribute to australian abos, betcha, also said 'drunks' choices!'
mircea_popescu: the emotional color of "atmosphere" is exactly of the same origin as the "feelings" furries perceive in animals' eyes : psychogenic.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yep. and they were right.
asciilifeform: ya ya exceptional-individuals-are-unstoppable-whatever.
mircea_popescu: idiots have no room in this world, which is why i hear their father got some real estate waiting for them somewhere else.
asciilifeform: ya ya all these earthlings are idiots and only on this dirigible i'm d'artagnan ok.
mircea_popescu: how do i enter into it again ?
asciilifeform: well, invulnerable to 'atmosphere'
mircea_popescu: these two aren't related.
asciilifeform: i can already picture mircea_popescu as ww1 officer. green cloud rolls over trench, grunts coughing out their lungs, 'stop being obnoxious bitchez!111'
shinohai: lolz
mircea_popescu: eh gtfo. when did "atmosphere" of "depressive" suddenly catch protons and become physical chlorine.
mircea_popescu: you ready to bring me a mol of "depression" gas ?
asciilifeform: funnily enough usg spent decades in search of actual 'depression gas'
asciilifeform: but no, that's not it.
mircea_popescu: in retrospect i should prolly have said mole, but a well.
asciilifeform: witness the stillbirth of cryptography as a scientific discipline.
asciilifeform: i do not believe that it was a natural occurrence.
asciilifeform: and cannot see how anyone with half a brain could conceive of this.
mircea_popescu: the principal symptom of major depressive disorder is the delusional notion on the part of the patient that his self-enacted emotional state has some sort of physical existence independent of himself.
mircea_popescu: dude... what scientific discipline isn't stillborn in the land of the suto ? seriously now.
asciilifeform: epidemiology is not canceled simply on account of inability to point finger to a physical agent.
asciilifeform: if 1 bloke rolls over and dies of meh - that's 1 weirdo fewer
mircea_popescu: back in like...2005 iirc ? 2008 maybe ? a guy used foia to get ALL the studies on antidepressant medicine. because you know, everyone had to file them with the fda.
asciilifeform: if 1,000,000,001 do - it is a proper subject of epidemiology
mircea_popescu: guess what ? it turned out 30 years of research and a whole discipline was... stillborn.
asciilifeform: and a result of a weapon firing.
trinque: what weapon fired in egypt?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: eh, placebocin worx great.
asciilifeform: trinque: u.s. dos.
trinque: or did the idiots simply outfuck
trinque: no the actual egypt
mircea_popescu: trinque he has this constructed thing whereby "x must exist and the thing that must exist we call x".
asciilifeform: trinque: dunno that anybody knows.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is the only practical alternative to 'electron moves because allah's farts push it'
mircea_popescu: "we shall call allah x" ? that's your alternative ?
mircea_popescu: such alternative! i suppose next we call idiots something else also.
asciilifeform: alternative is 'cut the thing or die trying'
Framedragger: "North Korea bans sarcasm because Kim Jong-un fears people only agree with him ‘ironically’"
asciilifeform: Framedragger: believe 0 of what comes out of south kr press
asciilifeform: which is the source of ~100% of '5 reasons north kr is CRAYYYYZEEE you MUST know'
Framedragger: oh yeah. i'm there for the lulzy headlines. but you're right asciilifeform
mircea_popescu: o look, the onion bought the independent
asciilifeform: 'Third, develop a capability to eliminate unwanted engineered genes from environments and restore systems to their genetic baseline state.' << wat.
asciilifeform: i cannot parse this document. it is output of a shannonizer.
asciilifeform: in retrospect, the folks lysenko was shooting, had it good.
asciilifeform: at least their opponents spoke HUMAN SPEECH
mircea_popescu: allegedly.
shinohai: <asciilifeform> i cannot parse this document. it is output of a shannonizer. <<< kek
shinohai: I suppose ouput such as this is designed to get more $$$ in defense spending or somesuch
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-08: [13:03:15] <mircea_popescu> as seen yesterday
mircea_popescu: oh shit.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger did i misread or did you say it's not doing this anymoar ?
asciilifeform: iirc he turned the knob to 'spit 1 line'
asciilifeform: which it did.
mircea_popescu: yeah but the wrong one.
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-08: [17:40:27] <asciilifeform> 'Data coming from true random number generators is never 100% random. I am aware of no exceptions. Whitening is required in all cases before the data is suitable for use in cryptography.' << from first link
asciilifeform: i know of ZERO exceptions to 'hey dudebroz, i built rng!111 and here's how i whitened, because MUST...'
asciilifeform: i find this particular mental block quite interesting
asciilifeform: behind it hide many of the other pathologies in the cluster.
asciilifeform: there is a fundamental (and solidly boecktronically-supported and propagated) misconception about what cryptography even IS
mircea_popescu: "here's how we're being respectful to one another, because god forbid if someone should speak plainly we might hear about all those classes we skipped in college."
mircea_popescu: gotta whiten, it's the cryptographical priviledge check.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-05 21:01 asciilifeform: trinque: who cribs, has not ~understood~.
asciilifeform: if the indians were clever and looked as if they were at risk for discovering vaccination , quarantine, etc. and laughing off smallpox blankets, how might equally clever englishmen have countered ?
asciilifeform: it is what usg did to crypto.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: fwiw i skipped (well, quit ~2 wks in) crypto class in school.
asciilifeform: it was barfalicious.
mircea_popescu: the indians didn't stand a chance. if you think vaccination works in aboriginal population you're a very special sort of lovely.
asciilifeform: well not these.
asciilifeform: hypothetical alt-indians, lol.
mircea_popescu: vaccination works, in yurpeans first and foremost, because we're whores. and always have been.
mircea_popescu: lol, ie, french indians.
mircea_popescu: (to explain the science involved : immunity works as a multi layered interplay of numerous proteins. some recognize specific bits of cells - hopefully, pathogens only, or else autoimmune response - some mark these recognitions, some others further mark, it's a whole shebang.
mircea_popescu: all these proteins are created, mostly in the liver, on the basis of blueprints, which are encoded genetically. which means that if your father didn't have anywhere a marker for smallpox, and he had you with a woman who also, you are immune to vaccination : it won't express anything.
mircea_popescu: vacciness work through stimulating the expression of pre existing genes/proteins/complexes, not by creating a magical forcefield around your dick.)
asciilifeform: soooo mircea_popescu knows of a case of indian suffering smallpox 2+ times ?
mircea_popescu: usually fatal the first time.
asciilifeform: well yes.
asciilifeform: but among the remainder ~10%
mircea_popescu: but more's the pojnt : even in very genetically diverse populations (such as yurpeans, because colonialism! such as not redskins, because stoneage losers), a good portion of the population has poor vaccine response.
mircea_popescu: they are protected however still, because "herd immunity", which is to say OTHER people not gettng it artificially reduces the "population density" from the pov of that pathogen.
mircea_popescu: which permits them to live.
asciilifeform: herdimmunity is kindergarten material aha
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i'm not prepared to go into microbiological details of smallpox. but even admitting vaccine saved 10, heck, 20% of the population. then what ?
mircea_popescu: if the us lost 400mn heads tomorrow it wouldn't stand.
asciilifeform: ( incidentally : for some reason nobody mentions the basic reason why savages drop like flies even from relatively mild epidemic: no slack in the gears! i.e. if no one gets out of bed for 2 weeks, EVERYONE starves )
mircea_popescu: large part of how black death worked, sure.
Framedragger: << your requested citation link was - both the anchro (383 - now preferred over from: ) and the from: point to 383, so it spits 383
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-08: [13:03:15] <mircea_popescu> as seen yesterday
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if u.s. lost 400 mn heads, you will have a gaping black hole in which ~80 mn. randos will get immediately sucked in. or the like.
Framedragger: but it appears the whole range thing fucks things up too much to be useful
a111: Logged on 2014-03-05 02:44 mircea_popescu: bad wolf busts into snow white's cavern, offers her a simple deal :
mircea_popescu: Framedragger meanwhile i figured out that if im careful to never use it, it won'\t mostly pop in again
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform exactly what happened with indians, too. mn randos were sucked into indian lands / indian women / etc.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger what's your notion of a difference between a public and secret bot ?
mircea_popescu: eg, "~a111@unaffiliated/phf/bot/a111"
asciilifeform: Framedragger: << typical gargle, '“Outstanding soldiers were selected from each reconnaissance platoon and light infantry brigade to form the nuclear backpack unit the size of a battalion,” the source from North Hamgyong province was quoted as saying. The supposed weapons were
asciilifeform: said to weigh between 10 and 30 kilograms and be able to “spray radioactive material”, possibly uranium, on the enemy. It was impossible to verify the account given to Radio Free Asia, which is funded by the US government.'
mircea_popescu: wasn't this ancient us army crap from like the 1950s ?
asciilifeform: actual 1man nukes were a '70s item iirc.
mircea_popescu: so fucking stupid. soviet workers shoveled dirt in the very core of the blasted ukrainian plant.
mircea_popescu: wtf, they're going to carry a plant by the backpack so the enemy has to take 10 minute breaks after every two minutes of shooting ?
asciilifeform: but if mircea_popescu was speaking of 'making up hilarious horseshit about north kr', yes, was american sport stating in '50s.
asciilifeform: *starting
mircea_popescu: who the fuck thinks this works. seriously now. trying to shoot the idiot is hard enough, but to disable enemy combatants by spraying "uranium" on them...
mircea_popescu: !~search golania accident
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: (search <word>) -- Searches for <word> in the current configuration variables.
mircea_popescu: !~google golania accident
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: Goiânia accident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <>; The Radiological Accident in Goiânia - IAEA Publications: <>; Goiânia incident Brasil - YouTube: <>
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu had entire article about subj
mircea_popescu: ^ actual spoonfull of straight cesium, complete with chereknov blue glow, handled. by hand.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: secret bot is an irc user in a channel which no-one knows to be a bot (or a bot of particular use). scriba also has that kind of hostmask (unaffiliated/framedragger/bot/scriba) but everyone knows what scriba is for.
Framedragger: but i have to stop presenting ideas i do not really believe in myself. i guess i thought it may garner some useful feedback tho.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it never ceases to amaze me.
trinque: Framedragger: didn't it?
trinque: the forum works.
Framedragger: it did, it did! but i feel i may be wasting people's time by asking to look into half-baked ideas
trinque: feel free to review some of my half-bakery from old logs.
mircea_popescu: << freenode kinda leaks ips, so the hostmask is not THAT strong a protection anywya.
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-08: [18:26:30] <Framedragger> thru other services and just plain syn flood or w/e
Framedragger: like, there's a line between stimulating the forum and trolling that should not be breached
Framedragger: trinque: coolcool. and yeah thanks :)
PeterL: one man's (alf's) half-baked idea is better than another's work of art
Framedragger: !~bash 1
jhvh1: Last 1 lines bashed and pending publication
trinque: provoke him bad enough and he might even teach you something.
asciilifeform: is that a 100amp mains cable feeding into the cow skull ?
mircea_popescu: looks like it.
Framedragger: from a friend mentioning release of iphone 7 and seeing this pic i just realized that apple didn't put a fucking 3.5mm jack into their newest shit"phone". srsly.
Framedragger: hence alf's quotes above
mircea_popescu: iphone 7 ? srsly ?!
mircea_popescu: by the time ice age 24 is available "only in select theatres" because nobody can be arsed to torrent it they'll be ready with iphone 17 ?
Framedragger: i know right?
Framedragger: "phone"
a111: Logged on 2016-09-07 19:27 asciilifeform: 'AirPods will use Infrared sensors to detect when they’re in your ears, playing only when they’re in your ears. The setup process is super easy — connect the AirPods once to your iPhone, and the AirPods instantly sync over iCloud to your other devices. From there, you never worry about them again.' >> oblig. >>
a111: Logged on 2016-09-08 16:34 asciilifeform: << is it just me or do these look like... smokes ?
ben_vulpes: iVape
shinohai: only uses crapple-flavoured e-liquid ?
ben_vulpes: proprietary nico fix
shinohai: ty BingoBoingo
deedbot: << Qntra - Well Fargo Fined Over Non-Consensual Account Openings
BingoBoingo: !~ty shinohai
jhvh1: You are very welcome Daddy
shinohai: sfy fiat lawz
deedbot: << Qntra - Kim Jung Un Bans Sarcasm
BingoBoingo: ^ backdoor election update, in the pooper
a111: Logged on 2015-07-30 19:42 ascii_field: trinque: virtually everything printed in english re: north kr is a bold-faced lie out of the mouth of south kr
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Maybe, but from the lie flow many truths!
asciilifeform: how's that
BingoBoingo: Well, read past the headline for the other Kim Jung Uns
BingoBoingo: The ones that don't require sarcasm
a111: Logged on 2015-02-20 00:46 asciilifeform: if it takes a batshit king and world's thickest minefield to keep out 'mcdonalds', it might yet turn out to be worth it.
BingoBoingo: !!up gabriel_laddel
deedbot: gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes.
BingoBoingo: Good afternoon Gabby
gabriel_laddel: Hey there. On a much better connection today.
gabriel_laddel: < they're not bad. ~A power bar you buy in bulk.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-08 02:09 asciilifeform: << turns out - they do exist.
gabriel_laddel: Soylent "food bars" are much tastier though.
trinque: millenial hardtack!
trinque: lol
BingoBoingo: One can also buy "power bars" in bulk and not regret their life choices as they eat mostly read food with the occasional "power bar"
trinque: gabriel_laddel: what's new in the mclim-mines
trinque: *mcclim
gabriel_laddel: I'm translating the spec from HTML to CLIM.
gabriel_laddel: < also, glad to see someone reads the logs. These new n00bs don't seem to be aware of ~any past discussions.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-06 23:27 trinque: all roads lead to make 50 billion dollars, then cry as alf says it's not enough
trinque: not enough "read 6mos of logs" beatings.
trinque: ah not in that case though. mod6 has perfectly legitimate interest there, and so do I.
trinque: thought it was another recent thread.
gabriel_laddel: iirc it was pretty clear that mod6 needs to read loper-os, but what do I know.
trinque: heh! I'd be careful with that, masamune-san!
gabriel_laddel: O right, that's why I dropped in here the other day.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-07 21:35 mircea_popescu: (apparently a badly balanced something or the other by steve yegge - you know, the supposedly notable derp behind http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com2006/04/lisp-is-not-acceptable-lisp.html and a whole load of java, ruby etc)
mircea_popescu: oh that was the other thing! "soylent". ran by some douchy dood with all sorts of "gonzo" marketing ideas, vaguely reminescent of the airbnb clowns.
mircea_popescu: anyway, eating trail mix for survival, in town. what's wrong with you know, cuisine.
gabriel_laddel: Fucking Yegge and everyone else who was involved with CL, even tangentially did a huge disservice to the language. He (and rich hicky) complains and complains about issues that can be solved with a few macros.
mircea_popescu: wait, the clim authoritative spec exists as a html ?!
gabriel_laddel: and a .pdf
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 623.88, vol: 4131.39162265 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 622.01, vol: 6582.60806 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 628.47, vol: 8206.62208263 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 622.275, vol: 220339.85000000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 626.63, vol: 1012.33540838 | Volume-weighted last average: 622.525278996
BingoBoingo: ^ The silence is wonder
gabriel_laddel: Does anyone know of / has created a database of hardware offerings from various vendors?
deedbot: << Trilema - Welcome to Baluba Island.
BingoBoingo: gabriel_laddel: What kind of hardware are you looking for?
trinque: lol check it out, black superior seed fanfic
deedbot: << Qntra - Politician Who Audited Elections Board Security Sentenced
BingoBoingo: ^ More other news
mod6: We are pretty much at the point of starting V-ify these makefiles.
mod6: And in doing so, it kinda brings us back to a previous discussion.
shinohai takes down the samovar to make tea for this discussion.
mod6: It was my first hunch, during a pre-emptive go around with this to not place the makefiles in with current source base -- as pressed out via V.
mod6: We discussed this, it was Mr. P.'s hunch that these should belong together (I hope I'm remembering this correctly), and I saw the wisdom in that.
mod6: And we haven't discussed it since.
mod6: When creating a makefile vpatch (for example, and then you press this out, you end up with something like this:
mod6: The problem is here, that when you run `make`, it'll build everthing under: build/rotor/TEST2/bitcoin/src despite the fact that the source is really under src/
mod6: this is because the makefile process does it's own V press.
mod6: Anyway, I bring this up because if we're determined to stick with this plan; the Makefiles included with the bitcoin source, then there is another ball of wax that needs to be discussed.
mod6: I think that keeping the Makefiles as a separate V tree would keep things a lot more clean.
mod6: Altogether, since we have V, I like the idea of keeping things like makefiles and buildscripts out of the main source tree. One can get V, press the makefile project. Run a `make`, which will in-turn, press everything via V and then build with buildroot.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-08 22:08 gabriel_laddel: Does anyone know of / has created a database of hardware offerings from various vendors?
asciilifeform: << at one time rotor was not the only builder, and so i cut'em off
a111: Logged on 2016-09-08 23:46 mod6: It was my first hunch, during a pre-emptive go around with this to not place the makefiles in with current source base -- as pressed out via V.
asciilifeform: now it has 0 reason
asciilifeform brb, meat
mod6: I can't make heads or tails out out of what you're saying there asciilifeform.
mod6: When you come back, maybe we can discuss what you're trying to exactly say.
mod6: oh, if you're saying that the rotor is no longer needed, i can agree with that. to an extent anyway.
mod6: the two .sh scripts you have in there can be integrated into the makefiles directly i think. however, we'll still need the openssl-004-musl-termios.patch and rotor_buildroot_dot_config
a111: Logged on 2016-09-09 00:28 mod6: oh, if you're saying that the rotor is no longer needed, i can agree with that. to an extent anyway.
asciilifeform: the OLD build is obsolete
asciilifeform: the pre-musl 'stator'
mod6: oh yeah, we're not reall messing with any of that stuff. stator hasn't been a part of the 'orchastra' for some time now.
mod6: so, im not 100% off the top of my head, but getting rid of the two rotor build script and integrating that portion into our makefiles ~might~ resolve at least part of the source redundancy issue.
shinohai: Seriously mod6 it's coming along great, today's makefile build was so easy these Eulora noobs could probably do it.
mod6: good to hear :]
mod6: Actually, I forgot, trinque already did that part. Makefile.rotor exists.
mod6: It would probably need some tweaks in there ... hmm.
mod6: Well, if it could be done without having to move anything that is already in place (as far as bitcoin is concerned), then it might work out alright.
mod6: Will try to work that out.
mod6: This hypothetical solution, even if it does work, wouldn't make it a one-button-push solution. Why? A person would need to get V + V.sig, verify, create a .wot dir, sync the patches + seals, manually or automatically, press the tree, then navigate into the pressed tree, and then `make`.
mod6: The simplest solution would be to perhaps have a deedified tarball of makefiles, much like trinque already has, get the deed, verifiy it, decode it, extract it, navigate to the make script and `make`.
mod6: Then let the makefiles do all the rest of the heavy lifting.
mod6: bbs.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what ip was zoolag before ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu:
asciilifeform: !!up boolcrap
deedbot: boolcrap voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: i had
asciilifeform: was definitely
asciilifeform: $s
asciilifeform: pre-dates the ~last~ fiber cut, heh.
mod6: i've got: listed on the foundation site. is it back up now with different ip alf?
a111: Logged on 2016-09-08 13:42 asciilifeform:
asciilifeform: boolcrap: how's the gulag ?
boolcrap: pretty good
boolcrap: its a solid gig
boolcrap: they got lots of peanut bars and seltzer water
mod6: asciilifeform: verified, thanks!
mod6: & updated
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-08: [19:19:02] <mircea_popescu> yeah but the wrong one.
mircea_popescu: << so then every time you try to get software running you have to two two presses, one of makefiles, one of sourcefiles ?
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-08: [19:19:02] <mircea_popescu> yeah but the wrong one.
asciilifeform: try in the classic log ?
mircea_popescu: Framedragger can we stop having this "multiline" bs unless specifically togled on somehow ?
mircea_popescu: << so basically we got v running twice ?
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-08: [23:52:51] <mod6> this is because the makefile process does it's own V press.
mircea_popescu: << so then every time you try to get software running you have to two two presses, one of makefiles, one of sourcefiles ?
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-08: [23:59:57] <mod6> Altogether, since we have V, I like the idea of keeping things like makefiles and buildscripts out of the main source tree. One can get V, press the makefile project. Run a `make`, which will in-turn, press everything via V and then build with buildroot.
asciilifeform: i admit that the thing where v is invoked from inside a make always bothered me.
asciilifeform: invocations of v are meant to be ~conscious~
asciilifeform: i.e. manual.
asciilifeform: like firing a pistol.
mircea_popescu: this isn't quite right as i understand it.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> << so basically we got v running twice ? << yeah, which wont do. after my monologue earlier, I have a hunch that I might be able to get it down to a single press.
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-08: [23:52:51] <mod6> this is because the makefile process does it's own V press.
mircea_popescu: why does make run a v anywya ?
mod6: well it's earliest implementation, was a clone of our build scripts, which, used V to pull and press the source.
mod6: anyway, i might be able to get it so that you press the tree, including the makefiles, and then just build.
asciilifeform: ^ the right thing.
mircea_popescu: ok let's approach it this way : what is so special about the make files that they get their own tree ? why not say, all .c files get their own, all .h files get their separate own ? inasmuch as you can't use the makefiles without the sources, they belong in the same tree as the sources.
mod6: (working on that / testing it now)
mircea_popescu: right, exactly.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: at one point we had 3 (then 2) quite separate types of builder.
mircea_popescu: yes i know
mircea_popescu: the early history of v is shrowded in chaos./
mod6: yeah, after discussing with myself in here mainly, i'm not in love with that solution either.
mod6: i could go on here.. but let's just say i didn't think it all the way through.
boolcrap: oh my
boolcrap: she was bad
mod6: i'll see where i can get to with this new idea. however, a person would have to do this to build the entire thing: get v; verify v; put vpatches, seals, and keys in place; press; then navigate to pressed dir, then `make`.
asciilifeform: boolcrap: looks like anyone you remember from the old dayz ?
asciilifeform: boolcrap: because i think she does.
mod6: does this seem acceptable?
boolcrap: ur right
boolcrap: same hair same body type
asciilifeform: boolcrap: i bet it was her.
boolcrap: we can only hope
mircea_popescu: mod6 make can't make from arbitrary dir ?
mod6: well, one would still need to press everything out, which includes the source and makefiles in this case.
mircea_popescu: " then navigate to pressed dir, " << i mean.
mod6: which, seems to be the "pistols" way
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> " then navigate to pressed dir, " << i mean. << ah, ok yeah one ~might~ be able to do that. not an expert on make tho.
mod6: that's the easy part imho. the hard part is getting v, et. al., set up.
asciilifeform: mod6: see my original rotor makefile. it chdirs to the dep dirs, makes there, etc.
asciilifeform: not hard.
mod6: ok. that's a minor consideration.
mod6: not a problem then.
mircea_popescu: yeah. minor point
asciilifeform: was there a major point ?
mod6: the setup of v; verify v; place everything where it needs to go, etc.
mod6: for you and I, this is routine.
mod6: for most people, not so.
asciilifeform: !!up boolcrap
deedbot: boolcrap voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: mod6: dunno that vtronic builds will ever be a 'most people' affair.
asciilifeform: it is more like flying than driving, if you will.
mircea_popescu: aaanyway
mircea_popescu: so i'd say sounds good, mod6
mod6: thanks Gentlemen. I'll keep polishing here. more to come, I'm sure.
asciilifeform: good work mod6
mod6: thx asciilifeform
asciilifeform: << before clim, common lisp's authoritative spec exists as... dead tree. while the version that ~everyone actually works from is html. because no, it is unusable without hyperlinking. >>
a111: Logged on 2016-09-08 21:58 mircea_popescu: wait, the clim authoritative spec exists as a html ?!
asciilifeform: ( most cl-using folk keep a copy on own disk. it is even a gentoo port . )
asciilifeform: << i never understood why the thing was published as html and not as a sexpr thing that gets htmlificated when you like
a111: Logged on 2016-09-08 21:44 gabriel_laddel: I'm translating the spec from HTML to CLIM.
mircea_popescu: for instance.
asciilifeform: considering that we can be quite certain that this is what it began life as.
asciilifeform: given as the thing PREDATES HTML
mircea_popescu: the ~only possible interpretation is that people simply suck at knowing what they got.
asciilifeform: in all fairness, the lisp world was hit by the equivalent of thermonuke war, and buncha stuff was lost / mixed up / dusted over.
phf: fwiw dpans has a copy of tex source, first or second to last draft before the standard was sent over to ansi. there's two projects that cleanup that tex, one is dpans2texi which produces texinfo formatted (this is what i use from emacs) and another by some russians that produces a clean pdf with hyperlinks
asciilifeform: phf: hilariously, i've been trying to buy the dead tree for eons
asciilifeform: phf: tried many times to have it printed in oncie copy, but NOBODY will promise it in ONE COVER
asciilifeform: because you can't get printondemand books on 'bible paper', only heavy laserpaper
asciilifeform: some dude got to naggum's death library copy just before i did...
asciilifeform: *before i could
phf: i have an ansi copy, it's a piece of shit though
asciilifeform: nth generation xerox in a 3ring, aha
asciilifeform: forgetit
phf: yeap
asciilifeform: i want the thing printed on archival paper and bound in motherfucking human leather.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i think boolcrap and i knew that chick in meatspace.
mircea_popescu: which one ?
asciilifeform: the one just linked
asciilifeform: and again earlier
asciilifeform: (same pic)
phf: asciilifeform: i'm sure you've seen this version
mircea_popescu: o oops, wrong pic.
asciilifeform: phf: yes. it's the one nobody can print into 1 b00k
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what's a bbc faggot
phf: why is that? i've never tried
mircea_popescu: dude watching airstrip one betamedia ?
asciilifeform: phf: 1300 pg of laser paper takes up too much width
phf: ah, i see. "bible paper vs laserpaper"
asciilifeform: i dun need 1300 pg of laser paper anywhere. except possibly at my peine forte et dure !
asciilifeform: clhs wants to live on the thin, glossy paper that bibles were once printed on.
asciilifeform: naggum even noted this at some point in mid-'90s
phf: one day orcs perhaps will use it to last through the night, as a kindle
asciilifeform: lol yes
boolcrap: hat picture
asciilifeform: (though laser paper burns atrociously, it is treated with fire retardant so that to survive the fuser)
trinque: << aha, evolving from earlier build scripts but has to go
a111: Logged on 2016-09-09 02:11 mircea_popescu: why does make run a v anywya ?
trinque: in no small part because V is utterly useful as a tool on its own
asciilifeform: now to be fair, phf, that's 680 sheets of paper.
trinque: needs to end up in /usr/local/bin/v handily
asciilifeform: but that is still far too much. (consider how a single american pack of paper holds 500 sheets, and its dimensions )
phf: asciilifeform: have you tried contacting one of the dedicated bible printing shops? they could possibly do a small batch for you. spend int, sell the rest through wot
asciilifeform: phf: actual presses generally are nosy and ask copyrasty questions
asciilifeform: but it's always worth a try.
phf: hmm hmm
trinque: << presence of the sync command simplifies this neh?
a111: Logged on 2016-09-09 02:17 mod6: i'll see where i can get to with this new idea. however, a person would have to do this to build the entire thing: get v; verify v; put vpatches, seals, and keys in place; press; then navigate to pressed dir, then `make`.
asciilifeform: ( down side is that it is too much like work )
trinque: I use sync in my instructions for logbot
asciilifeform: waitasec
asciilifeform: wtf is 'sync'
asciilifeform: that was not in my vtron.
phf: asciilifeform: you don't want to know.
trinque: now I did it
trinque: << sync pulls from a URL structure like this one, populates patches and seals
trinque: discuss!
asciilifeform: what's wrong with pulling a tarball and using v like normal people ?
trinque: << this may point to the whole thing having too much "end user friendly" concern
a111: Logged on 2016-09-09 02:22 asciilifeform: mod6: dunno that vtronic builds will ever be a 'most people' affair.
trinque: foundation signs release, shmoe on street uses
ben_vulpes: << omg teh bikeshedding!!!11!!1
a111: Logged on 2016-09-09 02:09 mircea_popescu: Framedragger can we stop having this "multiline" bs unless specifically togled on somehow ?
mod6: <+trinque> << this may point to the whole thing having too much "end user friendly" concern << fair enough, but many moons ago it was requested that it be a one-button-push launch.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-09 02:22 asciilifeform: mod6: dunno that vtronic builds will ever be a 'most people' affair.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes it's not bikeshedding when i actually use it.
mircea_popescu: mod6 i dun think the one button push got cancelled.
mircea_popescu: nerways ill be back tomorro
mod6: ah, ok then. have a good night.
mod6: cute girls.
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