dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-12 16:15:48 asciilifeform: thimbronion: imho there's no good reason to have a pest instance support >1 irc client. (i can guess why did this, but imho guest users are best implemented using an external proggy)
billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-12#1065481 << fwiw at the moment my pest instance has two clients, myself and the bot
asciilifeform: thimbronion: imho there's no good reason to have a pest instance support >1 irc client. (i can guess why did this, but imho guest users are best implemented using an external proggy)
asciilifeform: hm thimbronion i'm on pestnet (testing a rubbish-sending variant of your current vdiff) and send a helloworld, but not showing up in pestlog
asciilifeform: (or moar often when folx start piping e.g. warez over pest, and moar 'mileage wear' on keys)
asciilifeform: billymg: pest box (esp. after we've 'rekey') defo would win from a working trng.
billymg uses dice, but that won't work on a remote pest box
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-11 18:48:07 billymg: asciilifeform: i wonder sometimes too if we'll see them on pestnet someday
billymg: asciilifeform: i wonder sometimes too if we'll see them on pestnet someday
asciilifeform: it'd give an almost entirely 'nat-agnostic' pest.
bitbot: (pest) 2021-11-11 awt: I have this message going out to you: 2021-11-11 11:23:39.735009 [162.247.151.243:55565] <- ff7626d12e8c8bf2
bitbot: (pest) 2021-11-11 awt: Did you see this PeterL?
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-11 10:26:31 PeterL: thimbronion: if you run trb on top of pest then you know the identity of who is giving you packets
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-11 10:21:00 thimbronion: asciilifeform: what is your rationale for running trb on top of Pest? Hiding trb nodes w/o tor?
PeterL: thimbronion: if you run trb on top of pest then you know the identity of who is giving you packets
thimbronion: asciilifeform: what is your rationale for running trb on top of Pest? Hiding trb nodes w/o tor?
asciilifeform: the spec is a pretty quick read imho.
asciilifeform: mod6: no reason to hurry. asciilifeform suspects that mod6 will find the pest discussions interesting.
asciilifeform: mod6: the working draft is here.
mod6: oooh Pest. Nice, will read in full.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-10 11:57:15 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: possib. you saw in log, but there's in fact a ~working pest net !
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-08 12:02:52 thimbronion: For those interested: pest testnet logs here: http://logs.bitdash.io/
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: possib. you saw in log, but there's in fact a ~working pest net !
cdd: pest
asciilifeform: exactly like e.g. pest happened, and largely w/out direct involvement of asciilifeform .
asciilifeform: jurov: and thimbronion implemented asciilifeform's 'pest' p2p net , asciilifeform aims to e.g. pipe trb comms over same eventually
bitbot: (pest) 2021-11-09 shinohai: yes in "wot" single entry
billymg: asciilifeform: yes, currently only on pest net. i guess i should run another process to have it in here for echoing pest lines
cgra: billymg: ty for the pest logger, wouldn't wanna miss much pest tech talk before possibly joining the fun myself too.
asciilifeform: (hm that bot only on pestnet nao?)
shinohai: I'm really liking pest/blatta .... and have plenty of time to dedicate to debugging - so any tuned in that want to peer or test, feel free to DM me gpgram with keyz
asciilifeform: shinohai: imho 1 obv. desirable future pestism is a way to tunnel trb via same
shinohai even thought of running trb pest station/guest chan
thimbronion: billymg: just sent you a pest dm
billymg: but i can't speak (from my irc client) in #pest
billymg: and just saw shinohai's message, which the logger picked up: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2021-11-09#1000067
cdd: Well, I assure you I'm not here to peddle shitcoins. The loopix stuff was only something I'd heard of elsewhere and brought up in relation to pest.
asciilifeform: cdd: see, for instance if you haven't a pgp key, you can't get on anybody's (well, can only speak for self, but i dun expect anyone wants to send a pest key via plaintext) pest net.
asciilifeform: when folx start piping Gbs of warez via pest, may be trickier
punkman: nice to see pestnet going
shinohai: No filters here either, simply opened the port for pest station.
asciilifeform: hm thimbronion how come asciilifeform didn't see any of these in #pest ?
asciilifeform: i have thimbronion peered but see only self in #pest
asciilifeform: it runs a++ until one tries to join #pest
asciilifeform: (again on joining #pest)
asciilifeform: but, lol, only when joining #pest
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-07#1063666 << updated with link to 0xFD working draft and to thimbronion's thing .
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-07 17:52:33 signpost: that said my next work on the wot will be to make it available as a service on pest.
asciilifeform: nuffin in pest presumes that a packet is routed point to point, worx entirely fine with broadcast.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-07 18:10:41 signpost: what infrastructure, pest doesn't need datacenters.
cdd: That too, pest is just a beefy irc bouncer when you think about it.
signpost: what infrastructure, pest doesn't need datacenters.
signpost: it's a fair point, but pest would work fine over radio.
signpost: note that in pest the human relationships are the fundamental structure.
cdd: Pest?
signpost: and something which *every* pest node can run, because the idea of "a" wot is nonsense. there's only *the* wot.
signpost: that said my next work on the wot will be to make it available as a service on pest.
PeterL: I feel like connect is the right word, you connect to a pest network by peering with somebody in it
billymg: there's also a typo in 2.3. The WOT., last sentence I believe should say "...WOT also contains one* or more handles..."
billymg: asciilifeform: reading through your latest pest spec now, there's a dead link in 1.2.7. Nothing to the Stranger.: the link "duplicate" points to: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/pest/pest_draft.html#1272-dupes but the section id is actually #1272-duplicates
asciilifeform: shinohai: this was part of why asciilifeform specced an irc-compat. frontend for pest -- bots can be moved w/out major surgery
thimbronion: shinohai: busybot seems to be gone from the pest testnet as well
asciilifeform: will be glorious when we can switch to pestronics and fughet about these headaches.
signpost: imho perfect example of why build atop pest in time ^
thimbronion: Not seeing anything from you shinohai. I'm in #pest. Also tried to dm you.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-10-04 17:45:02 verisimilitude: I want to design a Pest implementation which stores all messages in a log; how am I to store the hearsay information; it seems this information is only revealed in the hypothetical IRC gateway; there shouldn't be information generated which can't later be regenerated.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-10-29#1062332 << increasingly loox like clients will have to be at least lightly patched to work w/ pest.
asciilifeform: in c world, this kinda thing is inevitably an ocean of pointerisms and pestilential typecasts errywhere
asciilifeform: bonechewer: there's this variety of 'pseudo-open source' that is esp. pestilential in re: hardware -- y'know, where 'you can have the src, but all you can do with it is gawk because missing x,y,z,p,q,r essential parts, with various excuses'
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-10-20 09:54:40 shinohai: thimbronion: I published some notes on Alcuin and made a genesis of v99994 (mainly for own benefit) but since I'm not in scoopbot 's rss feed: http://btc.info.gf/blog/lab-notes-pest-and-alcuin-part-one.html
asciilifeform: (i.e. req's no changes to the format as-given thus far save for the addition of a command code )
cgra: (for completeness, in-between null-byte strings of a warez file also an issue similarly, cuz may coincide last bytes of a pest message payload)
cgra: asciilifeform: thinking beyond pest irc-like messages, is it too early to consider a spot to explicitly encode a message payload size? the actual text content is currently null-terminated, even if upper boundary is defined. say, i wanted to send a warez file. it's size is usually not going to be an exact multiple of pest message payload. and it could end in a string of null-bytes
shinohai: Not entirely sure log is useful though, since actual log is in alcuin.db - log file only shows what individual spoke in #pest chan
shinohai: thimbronion: I published some notes on Alcuin and made a genesis of v99994 (mainly for own benefit) but since I'm not in scoopbot 's rss feed: http://btc.info.gf/blog/lab-notes-pest-and-alcuin-part-one.html
shinohai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-10-19#1061538 <<< aha good to know, I'm gonna keep experimenting with weechat, but as thimbronion fleshes out Alcuin will likely just alias pest-spec commands out for simplicity sake.
shinohai: thimbronion: `/wot` sends error to main weechat buffer, if I run `/quote wot` sends it to PEST buffer
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-10-16 12:11:55 thimbronion: asciilifeform: afaik most irc clients won't just pass on the pest control commands - plugins will be needed to support them. After a little bit of research I'm still not sure if weechat will even allow me to send custom commands through to the server via a plugin. In case I'm missing something, how were you thinking the control commands would be passed on from standard
punkman: or /privmsg #pest \COMMAND args
punkman: thimbronion: I have notices coming from PestServ, suppose I could have /privmsg pestserv COMMAND args
thimbronion: asciilifeform: afaik most irc clients won't just pass on the pest control commands - plugins will be needed to support them. After a little bit of research I'm still not sure if weechat will even allow me to send custom commands through to the server via a plugin. In case I'm missing something, how were you thinking the control commands would be passed on from standard
asciilifeform ftr utterly mired in commercial liquishit, but hopes to return to pest spec in ~2w or so
verisimilitude: Say, be there any ``timeline'' goal for Pest ``deployment''; that is, is within the year the current thinking, say?
PeterL: Quote above is from the Vuvuzela paper, seems like they are trying to solve a simmilar set of issues Pest is meant to address
asciilifeform: who the everliving fuck cares that a single irc line can turn into two pest packets!
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-10-04 20:42:06 thimbronion: asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/pest/pest_draft.html#23-the-wot << should be "one or more handles" I think
thimbronion: asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/pest/pest_draft.html#23-the-wot << should be "one or more handles" I think
verisimilitude: I'm also, of course, trying to help with Pest, by looking for problems.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i've no objections, but also don't see why this has to be in pest spec
verisimilitude: I don't intend to use an IRC client for Pest, recall.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: why do you want to store (outside of your personal irc console logs) info that doesn't need to be relayed to any pest peers ?
verisimilitude: I want to design a Pest implementation which stores all messages in a log; how am I to store the hearsay information; it seems this information is only revealed in the hypothetical IRC gateway; there shouldn't be information generated which can't later be regenerated.
verisimilitude: I've a valid complaint about Pest now.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-10-04#1060629 << i'd really NOT like to re-create what imho is the single most dysfunctional aspect of trb, in pest...
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-10-04 03:39:49 punkman: in other complexities, what about compressing messages? would help avoid splitting of ~500 byte irc messages into 2 pest messages. Relevant: https://github.com/facebook/zstd#the-case-for-small-data-compression
signpost: pest seems like a thing to implement as simply as possible, then see what problems one actually has
punkman: in other complexities, what about compressing messages? would help avoid splitting of ~500 byte irc messages into 2 pest messages. Relevant: https://github.com/facebook/zstd#the-case-for-small-data-compression
signpost: exactly. I'm saying punkman does not need this for base-layer pest, and pointing to where it has an application.
asciilifeform: signpost: imho lubyism is a++ for pest-style known-peers net, as the need to separately authenticate the frags falls away (i.e. can generally trust that a direct peer is not sending garbage frag)
asciilifeform: punkman: asciilifeform stole a few hours this wk to update the draft spec, but not accomplished ~anything. and drowning in liquishit nao and indefinitely. will try to answer q's periodically tho. hash (and any other similar item below msg size) oughta go in 0..L of the msg.
asciilifeform concretely wishes to apologize to folx expecting pest spec/implementation, phuctor resurrection, new trb, and any other wunderwaffen; nfi how many, if any, will be able to do in the time remaining.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-29 23:14:25 vex: 1.2.8 is the squid ink pest-like thing new?
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-29#1060187 << nope, was in original 0xFF draft even
signpost: (ftr I agree, and said exactly that with "next-layer-above", i.e. a proggy which sits atop pest)
signpost: obfuscation of the social graph was one of the things high on my list, but it might be a next-layer-above-pest thing.
signpost: asciilifeform: https://loper-os.org/http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-29#1060184pub/pest/pest_draft.html#128-nothing-to-the-snoop << one of my own napkin scribblings contains this, but stations all blast a fixed stream of noise to one another continuously
vex: 1.2.8 is the squid ink pest-like thing new?
punkman: pest in Javascript!
PeterL: pest in virtualBasic!
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-28 13:58:36 punkman: implemented pest operator commands. todo: getdata, rekey, fork handling and some local testing (and review concurrency/locks, probably got some race conditions in there)
punkman: can also think of it as optional hashtags, then you can configure how you want your Pest station to display: - everything in #pest - only untagged messages in #pest, tagged messages in separate channel, - etc
asciilifeform: mno punkman . that garbage shouldn't make it into the pest msg text
asciilifeform: would vastly tangle things up imho, and thoroughly contradict the fundamentals.
asciilifeform: punkman: i.e. you want to bake a pestron which can work >1 net simult.? (and represent as channels)
asciilifeform: punkman: if you think about it, most of the classical rfc that defines irc is simply garbage, and not needed for anyffin in pest
punkman: implemented pest operator commands. todo: getdata, rekey, fork handling and some local testing (and review concurrency/locks, probably got some race conditions in there)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-27 15:50:14 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-27#1059839 << neato. implements whole draft already?!
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-27 15:03:36 punkman: PestIRCD works, so far: 1k lines for IRCD, 1k lines for Pest
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-27#1059839 << neato. implements whole draft already?!
punkman: thinking it would be nice to make a #debug channel, which operator can join to see PestD debug info
punkman: thimbronion: does your pest peer eat packets yet?
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-25#1059617 << hey mats , competitor of yours ? 'Buying real estate in Sweden gives you 6.667x leverage at fixed 1.37% interest for a 5-year term (my offer). It is one of the cheapest leveraged ways to short fiat' etc
punkman: found a small irc server to embed in my pest prototype
asciilifeform: punkman: well, in current draft hmac384
asciilifeform: meanwhile, coupla thoughts re pest cpu cycle shaving :
asciilifeform: aaaand there's the fact that an outsider won't even know where to direct ddos if you have strong opsec.
asciilifeform: PeterL: the cure for ddos as offered in pest is not simply 'can process at nic line rate' but also the ease of switching to fallback line in flight (all you gotta do is to start sending from it, and peers will start replying there as soon as each receives even 1 valid packet from said new line)
asciilifeform: in practice of course you will not have 100% of avail. cpu cycles usable for pest!
asciilifeform: the figures are correct ( for 496 , which is what they weight in current draft ).
asciilifeform: PeterL: if pestism catches on, will be very easy to bake a fpga prefilter, much cheaper (and lower mains current usage) than a beefy x86
asciilifeform: PeterL: let's assume ethernet. so, in bytes, let's calculate 1 packet's mass: 5 (gap) + 4 (preamble) + 14 (eth header) + 20 (ipv4 hdr) + 8 (udp header) + 496 (pest) + 4 (ethernet crc) == 551
asciilifeform: this is why i suggested that guests, bots, etc. run on separate instances of the station proggy
asciilifeform: in current draft, hearsay dupes are mandatorily counted and the count is displayed.
asciilifeform thought this was 100% obvious from the doc -- apparently not ?
billymg: again, this stuff isn't for the folx working on pest and trb, it's for the would-be soldiers among the masses
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-19 23:29:13 asciilifeform: meanwhile, asciilifeform set up a running copy of the current rough draft of pest spec. currently reflects a very partially-done 0xFD. will be kept reasonably current on best-effort basis. please do NOT rely on the item at this link being static, or even consistent !!
asciilifeform: broadcast epilogue; and others.
asciilifeform: meanwhile, asciilifeform set up a running copy of the current rough draft of pest spec. currently reflects a very partially-done 0xFD. will be kept reasonably current on best-effort basis. please do NOT rely on the item at this link being static, or even consistent !!
asciilifeform: apeloyee: here.
apeloyee: so, is Pest intended as a foundation of a more complex thing, or nothing is intended atop it?
asciilifeform: fitting-in-head is an explicitly stated design principle in 0xFE already.
asciilifeform: apeloyee: it is presumed that you ~always~ can contact any peer out of band (i.e. outside of pest)
asciilifeform: apeloyee: btw i considered to have a default rate limit for simple hearsay messages.
asciilifeform: apeloyee: observe that simplicity is a deliberate design goal. concretely, currently there are no 'unions' (in c lang. sense) in pest -- every field has one and strictly one possible meaning.
asciilifeform: ( meanwhile, since perhaps it aint obvious, asciilifeform will explicitly remind readers : pest is arguably an atrocity, in that the Final Solution to the problem it intends to solve, is constant-time-rsa-at-line-rate. and nothing else. but this'd cost 1e9$+ to produce the required iron, and then somehow to get it to erryone who wants to play! so asciilifeform posed the question -- what subset of the desired functional
apeloyee: OK, can you put these statement (what Pest is NOT designed for, maybe w/o explanations) in the next draft?
asciilifeform: apeloyee: it isn't that i can't picture a situation where a simple proxy (eats packets from $ip1, forwards to $ip2, and vice-versa) is useful; but i don't see why to make it part of pest, complicating the protocol and creating multiple types of peering
apeloyee: non-trusted would be useful strictly as proxies. in Pest, stuff they relay cannot be verified.
apeloyee: I meant that not-trusted *direct* peers are routinely used to relay stuff. the internet works that way, in fact. but not Pest.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-19 16:24:26 apeloyee: so, Pest isn't designed to operate under high packet loss, or with peers trusted only as far as you can throw them. what else?
asciilifeform: apeloyee: 0xFD pest will operate under any packet loss condition other than 100%
apeloyee: so, Pest isn't designed to operate under high packet loss, or with peers trusted only as far as you can throw them. what else?
asciilifeform: there shall be no slow crypto with valuable longterm key in pest.
user: OK, I'll leave a few stupid comments about Pest spec.
asciilifeform: in fact explicitly strongly recommended that console and client reside in one physical machine. USER/PASS is simply a last-ditch protection against an inadvertently -- even for 5sec -- world-connectable console port.
bomolochus: is username that pest stations understand being on disk a requirement for a functional xchat connection to it as an irc server?
asciilifeform: bomolochus: the reason why 2.5.2 reads: '... This is a password, or a derivative thereof; the exact authentication mechanism is unspecified.' is rather simple :
asciilifeform intends to eventually replace dulapnet server with a 'guest door' into his pest net.
asciilifeform: as far as asciilifeform's concerned, until can replace it & the rest w/ pest nets, #a will serve as the interim replacement for #trb as well.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-16#1058361 << asciilifeform did not specify the frequency with which 'ignore' is issued; but expects that it will happen at least erry coupla min. and as soon as it does, the receiver learns of the gap and getdata's to fill it, neh
shinohai: ty asciilifeform ... Summer travels soon to come to end, perhaps can catch up on "Pest" discussion.
verisimilitude: It's regrettable I've added little good thought to Pest so far, then. I'll need to consider other optimizations and whatnot.
asciilifeform: PeterL: not from an actual pest station, no. from ddoser -- yes
asciilifeform: bomolochus: don't hesitate to ask about the pest spec (didja get a chance to read whole thing? and threads?) -- or anyffin else
b: hi asciilifeform. what is the reserved field in pest packets for?
PeterL: Does pest need 64 bytes for the signature? Could a smaller signature be used, and allow a correspondingly larger message size?
asciilifeform: it is difficult imho to think of a worse idea for pest.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-13 16:38:33 asciilifeform: in fact already specified this in 4.1.2.2.2. In-WOT Hearsay. simply, now also count the # of peers from whom got bounce<=1 dupes of a given msg.
asciilifeform: 2) ~every~ hearsay message (rather than strictly in-wot hearsay) is embargoed for a configurable interval.
billymg: asciilifeform: i've started working on a sort of marketing page for pest at http://pest.bitdash.io/ -- right now the homepage just links to a neatly formatted copy of the current draft spec, but next step is adding an "overview" button to the homepage that will lead to a powerpoint-esque summary with diagrams/visual aids
asciilifeform: in fact already specified this in 4.1.2.2.2. In-WOT Hearsay. simply, now also count the # of peers from whom got bounce<=1 dupes of a given msg.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-13 14:45:28 asciilifeform: ... explicitly specified!!! model of net growth.
asciilifeform: ... explicitly specified!!! model of net growth.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-13 14:29:32 asciilifeform: this is part of the [file:///home/stas/pest/FD/b/pest_spec/pest.html#122-nets-instead-of-channels][explicitly specified!!!] model of net growth.
asciilifeform: this is part of the [file:///home/stas/pest/FD/b/pest_spec/pest.html#122-nets-instead-of-channels][explicitly specified!!!] model of net growth.
asciilifeform: ( you can of course join separate nets, operated via separate pestrons. this is explicitly not the item under discussion tho )
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-13 13:12:22 asciilifeform: ... given that two previously-disjoint nets may merge , there can be nick collisions resulting from said merge w/out necessarily any malfeasance on anyone's part
asciilifeform: ... given that two previously-disjoint nets may merge , there can be nick collisions resulting from said merge w/out necessarily any malfeasance on anyone's part
asciilifeform: the entire pest algo is an attempt.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-12 19:32:10 asciilifeform: so far the only solution asciilifeform can think of, is 'pest is not for casualtards who don't have 24/7 fiber. if you don't have at home, get a box in a dc.'
asciilifeform: ^ this in re [http://verisimilitudes.net/2021-09-09][[verisimilitude's article], nought to do w/ pest
asciilifeform was planning to put worked examples of encrypt/decrypt in 5.2.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-12#1057809 << black packet's ciphertext is 444 byte, recall
asciilifeform: so far the only solution asciilifeform can think of, is 'pest is not for casualtards who don't have 24/7 fiber. if you don't have at home, get a box in a dc.'
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-11 11:52:56 asciilifeform: and, relatedly: if we have ACKs, then possibly oughta reject in-wot hearsay pertaining to a 'live' peer, categorically ? (how then define 'live' ? when to accept in-wot hearsay again ?)
asciilifeform: (this in re bitcoin strictly! not pest, lol)
signpost: and if your friends are all wrong about what tip of history is, you're fucked for reasons entirely other than pest-tronics
asciilifeform intended, in 'pest', to make a kind of 'construction kit' for interesting protocols -- can be extended for wot, warez, hypothetically even distributed video hosting, telephones, other exotica
asciilifeform not very happy with the current mechanism
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-12 12:16:13 signpost: asciilifeform: re-digesting pest. it comes to mind that were the station aware of wot ratings, it could weight the capacity it's willing to dedicate to each peering, but I think this is something to deal with once problem's had, if at all.
signpost: were one to implement a pest node with an interface from which to extract usage, and with which to adjust capacity allocations, the rest can be handled by some other program, as simple or complicated as one wants.
signpost: asciilifeform: re-digesting pest. it comes to mind that were the station aware of wot ratings, it could weight the capacity it's willing to dedicate to each peering, but I think this is something to deal with once problem's had, if at all.
billymg: ohh, ok i see now what you meant by "which section it's in" (one for irc-compat, one unique to pest)
billymg: asciilifeform: is there a reason behind using the command 'PRIVMSG' in pest instead of 'MSG'?
asciilifeform: if someone (e.g. billymg) ends up 'taking up the white man's burden' and teaching such folx to pest etc -- a++.
billymg: afaik same group happy to use keybase, protonmail, etc., sure, but imo they're the target demographic for vtrons and pestrc networks
asciilifeform: apropos, it'd be trivial to serve http (or a successor protocol) via pest.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-11 14:01:55 billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-10#1057421 << i enjoyed this, pretty good as a normie marketing campaign for pest too imo
punkman: signpost: if torrent-speed is needed, might as well bootstrap proper torrent connection through Pest
billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-10#1057421 << i enjoyed this, pretty good as a normie marketing campaign for pest too imo
asciilifeform: and, relatedly: if we have ACKs, then possibly oughta reject in-wot hearsay pertaining to a 'live' peer, categorically ? (how then define 'live' ? when to accept in-wot hearsay again ?)
asciilifeform: (the AT is updated when a packet is received. and 'Ignore' packets will be received (tho i did not specify how often..) from every peer with a working connection)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-11 03:51:43 punkman: asciilifeform: I think a ping-pong mechanism might be useful for Pest. Case: I start station up, ping all peers in Wot, if X or Y doesn't answer, I can go and look for their new IP address. Case 2: I have received no messages for a couple hours, I do "/ping ALL" and see if any stations are still online, if I need to reconfigure something, etc
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-11#1057449 << this, otoh, is quite unnecessary, on account of the AT mechanism -- recall, [http://www.loper-os.org/pub/pest/pest_FE.html#22-peers-and-keys]['Additionally, at least one of the peers must have a routable, static address (here and below: IPv4 address and port, in a.b.c.d:p notation), and it must
punkman: asciilifeform: I think a ping-pong mechanism might be useful for Pest. Case: I start station up, ping all peers in Wot, if X or Y doesn't answer, I can go and look for their new IP address. Case 2: I have received no messages for a couple hours, I do "/ping ALL" and see if any stations are still online, if I need to reconfigure something, etc
asciilifeform: 'pest' is a basic shoelace variant of this.
bingoboingo: https://www.reddit.com/r/irc/comments/pkk3oz/irc_like_p2p_network_draft_spec_pest_v_0xfe/ << Not much to answer "This is so beautiful [heart eyes] So it's like the torrent or bitcoin, but minimal compared to RetroShare"
asciilifeform: with 'pest', in principle, yet other new things possible. starting with getting dulapnet the everliving permanent fuck off the central point of failure.
asciilifeform: signpost: will be handy for adding warez file transfer, trb block propagation, etc to pest.
asciilifeform must point out, for readers, that excluding traitors/reich agents/provocateurs from one's wot is a human problem, and rather outside the scope of pest or other algorithmic discussions
asciilifeform: there's no central-anything to 'get crowded' in pest.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: 1.2 -- 'Pest stations exchange authenticably-encrypted messages exclusively with an operator-configured set of peers...'
PeterL: also re Pest: you say to check against each key in random order, this is meant to mean you go through all keys or stop once you find a valid one? Or is that left to the implementation?
vex: I've had a cursory glance at pest description; sounbds like it might be useful for more than simply chitchat
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-06 23:51:10 asciilifeform: thimbronion: it is certainly possible to operate bots or guests through a station.
asciilifeform: unrelatedly to above, but pertinently to pest_FD draft : prolly oughta specify that operator can define irc 'guests' who can talk but not issue control cmds (and perhaps forcibly prefixed e.g. 'guest_' to their nick, or the like)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-06 23:51:10 asciilifeform: thimbronion: it is certainly possible to operate bots or guests through a station.
asciilifeform: unrelatedly to above, but pertinently to pest_FD draft : prolly oughta specify that operator can define [http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-06#1056625][irc 'guests' who can talk but not issue control cmds (and perhaps forcibly prefixed e.g. 'guest_' to their nick, or the like)
asciilifeform: if to any reader of pest_FE the above does not make sense -- plox to write in!!
asciilifeform: while we're on pest_FE : there's another msg type asciilifeform did not include, but would like to discuss : rekeys.
asciilifeform: ( recall that messages are hash-chained )
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-07 09:30:53 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-07#1056636 << in orig. draft 0xFF was to simply require '#pest' but imho this is pointless. so in 0xFF we have 'any #....', was to say ('that fits in the 510 bytes of irc command') but didn't feel like calculating hard max, so gave 128.
cgra: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-07#1056648 << does it matter that the pest spec now allows spaces and commas in the channel name? not that i really think the operators weren't soon to find out their irc clients won't cooperate in such cases...
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-07 08:05:15 PeterL: asciilifeform: in the pest spec, section 4.1.1.9, "identical packet echoed back" refers to an identical "red packet", not an identical "black packet", yes? And would the "bounce" field be incremented in that case?
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-07#1056636 << in orig. draft 0xFF was to simply require '#pest' but imho this is pointless. so in 0xFF we have 'any #....', was to say ('that fits in the 510 bytes of irc command') but didn't feel like calculating hard max, so gave 128.
PeterL: asciilifeform: in the pest spec, section 4.1.1.9, "identical packet echoed back" refers to an identical "red packet", not an identical "black packet", yes? And would the "bounce" field be incremented in that case?
cgra: asciilifeform: a couple of simplistic nitpick attempts re pest_FE
asciilifeform: thimbronion: it is certainly possible to operate bots or guests through a station.
asciilifeform: in any other case they will show up as a 'hearsay'.
asciilifeform: thimbronion: multiple nicks can certainly emerge from a given station. they can be aliases defined on receiver's end via AKA and then will show up as 'immediate' message ;
scoopbot: New post on Loper OS: "Pest" v. 0xFE.
scoopbot: New post on Loper OS: "Pest" v. 0xFF.
asciilifeform: it's the single sharpest knife in the toolkit imho
punkman: can take months with cheapest shipping options