asciilifeform also added to 'rekeying' the condition where 'key offer's must not be identical. somehow forgot this yest.
bitbot: (pest) 2021-11-19 PeterL: One question about the spec: is there some sort of escape character if you want to send a message starting with % instead of it being interpreted as a command to pest?
asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2021-11-19#1000904 << added to spec the possible use of backslash escape char for this.
asciilifeform: also includes a proposed pill for the command headache with trad. irc clients;
asciilifeform: ACHTUNG, panzers! thimbronion billymg PeterL shinohai signpost et al : pest draft 0xFD updated !! includes rekey, getdata, bounce logic, and various other items discusses in the log.
vex: \no pesticides
asciilifeform: arguably only 'comes into its own' once you can make a completely pestronic path to miners, aha
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-11 10:21:00 thimbronion: asciilifeform: what is your rationale for running trb on top of Pest? Hiding trb nodes w/o tor?
vex: thoughts on pest being bolted to trb asciilifeform?
asciilifeform: fwiw asciilifeform suspects that there were folx 'using pest' long before i described it on www, and before thimbronion wrote his pre-pest thing, or even before any of us were wanking re 'gossipd', etc.
asciilifeform: 'obfuscated pestron contest'!111
asciilifeform: i.e. the pest topology is general enuff to allow emulation of heathen one, if someone needed such a thing.
asciilifeform: orthogonally to all of this, asciilifeform was asked (in meatspace) 'can i make an equivalent of old-style moderated group w/ pest?' -- answr is 'you can, if you can find folx who want to inhabit one, simply pick a moderator and peer with him in star topology'
asciilifeform: for so long as someone on your pestnet has the old stuff, you'll be able to see it.
asciilifeform: i.e. potentially could have a pest client w/ 'scrollback' a la certain heathen chats
asciilifeform: thimbronion: imho the only proper fix for this is to actually have the embargo logic
asciilifeform: repasting from pestlog (which aint 100% working presently) : thimbronion : what is almost certainly happening is that msgs with lower bouncecounts are getting zapped by deduper, and identical copies bearing higher bouncecounts are the ones being rebroadcast some % of the time, leaving to ~random desaparecidos.
signpost: probably enough to say that when all three are provided, the pest node and irc frontend proceed to the connected state
signpost also points out that black market weed is often covered in pesticide.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-14 11:53:11 asciilifeform: meanwhile, in misc. finds : a quite compact cl ircd, possibly usable as a pestron frontend.
asciilifeform: this means these ( Timestamp, SelfChain, NetChain, Speaker, Text -- in that order )
asciilifeform: (i.e. nuffin in the red packet other than the 428byte of message is touched by it )
asciilifeform: thimbronion: observe that only the message is covered by this hash.
bitbot: (pest) 2021-11-15 asciilifeform: deduping is done with hash of entire msg per spec
thimbronion: asciilifeform: I'm having trouble locating in the spec where the hashing algorithm to be used to check for duplicates is specified.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-15 10:51:07 signpost: rereading the pest spec on a "remarkable", pretty great for this
signpost rereading the pest spec on a "remarkable", pretty great for this
thimbronion: shinohai: can you paste a logline of the command missing the channel field from both the IRC client and the pest station broadcast?
thimbronion: 2021-11-15 06:43:11.281190 [127.0.0.1:53954] -> "PRIVMSG #pest :shinohai: were you able to verify whether the bot is or isn't receiving messages at both the pest level and the IRC level?\r\n" <-- this is what the irc message from my irc client to the pest station looks like in my log.
thimbronion: shinohai: in case you couldn't see in #pest: were you able to verify whether the bot is or isn't receiving messages at both the pest level and the IRC level?
bonechewer: And an airgapped, portable OTPtron vulnerable only to TEMPEST is a worthwhile intermediate point that should exist; should at least be specced out in adequate detail to permit work on one to get underway.
bonechewer: All of the above nonwithstanding, my contention is simply that there is a worthwhile point on the continuum between pest and offline paper OTP
asciilifeform: bonechewer: it doesn't get much faster than e.g. pestgram, if you need 'reasonable' seekoority and fast msg time.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-14 23:09:00 bonechewer: It seems to me that thinking one is communicating securely on any piece of commodity hardware connected to the public internet or cell network is self-deception. If the enemy wants to read your PGPgrams or, for that matter, pest traffic, he will send a magic packet to your ethernet controller, wifi chip, or baseband modem, own your box, and read your traffic right from your frame buffer as you
bonechewer: perhaps, but TEMPEST seems like a much more difficult class of attack for the adversary than simply (1) send magic packet to box running PGP (2) ask Intel management engine to squirt framebuffer to adversary HQ
bonechewer: It seems to me that thinking one is communicating securely on any piece of commodity hardware connected to the public internet or cell network is self-deception. If the enemy wants to read your PGPgrams or, for that matter, pest traffic, he will send a magic packet to your ethernet controller, wifi chip, or baseband modem, own your box, and read your traffic right from your frame buffer as you
billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-14#1065827 << yeah, something is up with how i'm running that other blatta server. i tried connecting from here (different machine) and i could connect, and see 'billymg' in my nicklist, but messages i sent to #pest weren't showing up on the other machine
asciilifeform: (that way cannot 'oh hey let's allow dns but not pest, reject all where length==496')
asciilifeform: (moar nuanced -- a pest packet's 496 oughta sometimes be elongated with random rubbish up to the 516 possible w/out fragging, and on receipt discard all bytes above 496 and process then normally)
asciilifeform: it oughta be physically impossible to e.g. compose an ids rule against pest.
asciilifeform: (the folx for whom not meant -- will simply throw it out as a martian .)
asciilifeform: incidentally, here's an entirely unrelated idea, simply to increase the suffering of snoops :
asciilifeform: ( not to mention that pest stations oughta be able to function inside a lan or whatever other segregated net )
asciilifeform: ftr there are heathen protocols which can be abused to send a udpgram and get back own ephemeral port. e.g. dns servers can be milked this way. but i'd rather not encode a reliance on heathen toilets into pest.
asciilifeform: ( it is theoretically possible to bake a pest where nobody has to give a rat's arse about ip addrs at all! but rather 'unecological' not to mention slow)
thimbronion: asciilifeform: continuing discussion from #pest - can you illustrate a concrete scenario?
thimbronion: shinohai: default channel flag is #pest
shinohai: ^ so it seems for some reason when doing this in pestnet, the chan field no longer does anything, so msg is just going into void.
billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-13#1065580 << i didn't even have to do anything really, the irc mimicking worked well enough that i simply had to spin up another bot configured with my pest instance as the irc server
asciilifeform: i'd very much rather that folx suffering untreated case of 'tor of the central nervous system' not use pest.
asciilifeform: punkman: i'd simply rather not have pest protocol resemble the proverbial 'matryoshka doll' where a msg can contain arbitrary other msg etc
asciilifeform: imho these oughta be sent strictly when necessary -- otherwise you leak info to entire pestnet which folx dun have necessarily any biz knowing (concretely -- the # of peers you have)
asciilifeform: it'd suck imho if a pestnet with coupla hundred people were uninhabitable unless you have gb/s pipe.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-13 22:15:20 asciilifeform: ... likewise pest worx without modification over radio, wire, or other 'broadcast channel'. simply stuff erry outgoing packet into a free timeslot.
asciilifeform: punkman: even when individual peers rate-limit, you can still get a pretty thick flood if yer pestnet is populous
asciilifeform: you'll still need at least ~one~ peer's addr to get on a pest net, but from there on, any peer with whom you have a valid key will be contactable henceforth without fiddling, for so long as he is reachable via a broadcast on that net.
asciilifeform: actually just 0xFE (the intended addressee, if he's on that pestnet and reachable, will decode, and make contact with the addr:port enclosed)
asciilifeform: 0xFE and 0xFD: broadcast (a la 0x00, i.e. to all member of a pestnet whose $maxbounce permits'em to hear), bearing not text but a ciphrogram, keyed to a peer for whom the sender wishes to find ip:port.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform would like to propose a new pest msg command :
asciilifeform: signpost: indeed. and imho optimal pestron would be sumthing more or less separable from the default (irctronic) front end, i.e. gluable directly to a bot such as deedbot
signpost: cool, since deedbot is cl, might be handy for bolting to pest
asciilifeform: shinohai: could be trimmed substantially given as pest doesn't actually need anyffin like a full ircd
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in misc. finds : a quite compact cl ircd, possibly usable as a pestron frontend.
asciilifeform: ... likewise pest worx without modification over radio, wire, or other 'broadcast channel'. simply stuff erry outgoing packet into a free timeslot.
asciilifeform: phunphakt: if somehow, under some odd circumstances, two pest peers do not know one another's ips, but know expected port, they can find each other in...
bitbot: (pest) 2021-11-14 awt: asciilifeform: yeah I think the irc server includes your client host info as part of your id in the irc messages. Should be able to mitigate that server side.
asciilifeform: meanwhile pestlog thrd of possible interest to other folx.
bitbot: (pest) 2021-11-13 asciilifeform: billymg: your port is 'high'
thimbronion: asciilifeform: I see your messages in #pest
asciilifeform: also i readded peers , and issued a helloworld, but seeing nuffin in pestlog
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-12 16:15:48 asciilifeform: thimbronion: imho there's no good reason to have a pest instance support >1 irc client. (i can guess why did this, but imho guest users are best implemented using an external proggy)
billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-12#1065481 << fwiw at the moment my pest instance has two clients, myself and the bot
asciilifeform: thimbronion: imho there's no good reason to have a pest instance support >1 irc client. (i can guess why did this, but imho guest users are best implemented using an external proggy)
asciilifeform: hm thimbronion i'm on pestnet (testing a rubbish-sending variant of your current vdiff) and send a helloworld, but not showing up in pestlog
asciilifeform: (or moar often when folx start piping e.g. warez over pest, and moar 'mileage wear' on keys)
asciilifeform: billymg: pest box (esp. after we've 'rekey') defo would win from a working trng.
billymg uses dice, but that won't work on a remote pest box
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-11 18:48:07 billymg: asciilifeform: i wonder sometimes too if we'll see them on pestnet someday
billymg: asciilifeform: i wonder sometimes too if we'll see them on pestnet someday
asciilifeform: it'd give an almost entirely 'nat-agnostic' pest.
bitbot: (pest) 2021-11-11 awt: I have this message going out to you: 2021-11-11 11:23:39.735009 [162.247.151.243:55565] <- ff7626d12e8c8bf2
bitbot: (pest) 2021-11-11 awt: Did you see this PeterL?
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-11 10:26:31 PeterL: thimbronion: if you run trb on top of pest then you know the identity of who is giving you packets
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-11 10:21:00 thimbronion: asciilifeform: what is your rationale for running trb on top of Pest? Hiding trb nodes w/o tor?
PeterL: thimbronion: if you run trb on top of pest then you know the identity of who is giving you packets
thimbronion: asciilifeform: what is your rationale for running trb on top of Pest? Hiding trb nodes w/o tor?
asciilifeform: the spec is a pretty quick read imho.
asciilifeform: mod6: no reason to hurry. asciilifeform suspects that mod6 will find the pest discussions interesting.
asciilifeform: mod6: the working draft is here.
mod6: oooh Pest. Nice, will read in full.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-10 11:57:15 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: possib. you saw in log, but there's in fact a ~working pest net !
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-08 12:02:52 thimbronion: For those interested: pest testnet logs here: http://logs.bitdash.io/
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: possib. you saw in log, but there's in fact a ~working pest net !
cdd: pest
asciilifeform: exactly like e.g. pest happened, and largely w/out direct involvement of asciilifeform .
asciilifeform: jurov: and thimbronion implemented asciilifeform's 'pest' p2p net , asciilifeform aims to e.g. pipe trb comms over same eventually
bitbot: (pest) 2021-11-09 shinohai: yes in "wot" single entry
billymg: asciilifeform: yes, currently only on pest net. i guess i should run another process to have it in here for echoing pest lines
cgra: billymg: ty for the pest logger, wouldn't wanna miss much pest tech talk before possibly joining the fun myself too.
asciilifeform: (hm that bot only on pestnet nao?)
shinohai: I'm really liking pest/blatta .... and have plenty of time to dedicate to debugging - so any tuned in that want to peer or test, feel free to DM me gpgram with keyz
asciilifeform: shinohai: imho 1 obv. desirable future pestism is a way to tunnel trb via same
shinohai even thought of running trb pest station/guest chan
thimbronion: billymg: just sent you a pest dm
billymg: but i can't speak (from my irc client) in #pest
billymg: and just saw shinohai's message, which the logger picked up: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2021-11-09#1000067
cdd: Well, I assure you I'm not here to peddle shitcoins. The loopix stuff was only something I'd heard of elsewhere and brought up in relation to pest.
asciilifeform: cdd: see, for instance if you haven't a pgp key, you can't get on anybody's (well, can only speak for self, but i dun expect anyone wants to send a pest key via plaintext) pest net.
asciilifeform: when folx start piping Gbs of warez via pest, may be trickier
punkman: nice to see pestnet going
shinohai: No filters here either, simply opened the port for pest station.
asciilifeform: hm thimbronion how come asciilifeform didn't see any of these in #pest ?
asciilifeform: i have thimbronion peered but see only self in #pest
asciilifeform: it runs a++ until one tries to join #pest
asciilifeform: (again on joining #pest)
asciilifeform: but, lol, only when joining #pest
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-07#1063666 << updated with link to 0xFD working draft and to thimbronion's thing .
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-07 17:52:33 signpost: that said my next work on the wot will be to make it available as a service on pest.
asciilifeform: nuffin in pest presumes that a packet is routed point to point, worx entirely fine with broadcast.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-07 18:10:41 signpost: what infrastructure, pest doesn't need datacenters.
cdd: That too, pest is just a beefy irc bouncer when you think about it.
signpost: what infrastructure, pest doesn't need datacenters.
signpost: it's a fair point, but pest would work fine over radio.
signpost: note that in pest the human relationships are the fundamental structure.
cdd: Pest?
signpost: and something which *every* pest node can run, because the idea of "a" wot is nonsense. there's only *the* wot.
signpost: that said my next work on the wot will be to make it available as a service on pest.
PeterL: I feel like connect is the right word, you connect to a pest network by peering with somebody in it
billymg: there's also a typo in 2.3. The WOT., last sentence I believe should say "...WOT also contains one* or more handles..."
billymg: asciilifeform: reading through your latest pest spec now, there's a dead link in 1.2.7. Nothing to the Stranger.: the link "duplicate" points to: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/pest/pest_draft.html#1272-dupes but the section id is actually #1272-duplicates
asciilifeform: shinohai: this was part of why asciilifeform specced an irc-compat. frontend for pest -- bots can be moved w/out major surgery
thimbronion: shinohai: busybot seems to be gone from the pest testnet as well
asciilifeform: will be glorious when we can switch to pestronics and fughet about these headaches.
signpost: imho perfect example of why build atop pest in time ^
thimbronion: Not seeing anything from you shinohai. I'm in #pest. Also tried to dm you.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-10-04 17:45:02 verisimilitude: I want to design a Pest implementation which stores all messages in a log; how am I to store the hearsay information; it seems this information is only revealed in the hypothetical IRC gateway; there shouldn't be information generated which can't later be regenerated.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-10-29#1062332 << increasingly loox like clients will have to be at least lightly patched to work w/ pest.
asciilifeform: in c world, this kinda thing is inevitably an ocean of pointerisms and pestilential typecasts errywhere
asciilifeform: bonechewer: there's this variety of 'pseudo-open source' that is esp. pestilential in re: hardware -- y'know, where 'you can have the src, but all you can do with it is gawk because missing x,y,z,p,q,r essential parts, with various excuses'
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-10-20 09:54:40 shinohai: thimbronion: I published some notes on Alcuin and made a genesis of v99994 (mainly for own benefit) but since I'm not in scoopbot 's rss feed: http://btc.info.gf/blog/lab-notes-pest-and-alcuin-part-one.html
asciilifeform: (i.e. req's no changes to the format as-given thus far save for the addition of a command code )
cgra: (for completeness, in-between null-byte strings of a warez file also an issue similarly, cuz may coincide last bytes of a pest message payload)
cgra: asciilifeform: thinking beyond pest irc-like messages, is it too early to consider a spot to explicitly encode a message payload size? the actual text content is currently null-terminated, even if upper boundary is defined. say, i wanted to send a warez file. it's size is usually not going to be an exact multiple of pest message payload. and it could end in a string of null-bytes
shinohai: Not entirely sure log is useful though, since actual log is in alcuin.db - log file only shows what individual spoke in #pest chan
shinohai: thimbronion: I published some notes on Alcuin and made a genesis of v99994 (mainly for own benefit) but since I'm not in scoopbot 's rss feed: http://btc.info.gf/blog/lab-notes-pest-and-alcuin-part-one.html
shinohai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-10-19#1061538 <<< aha good to know, I'm gonna keep experimenting with weechat, but as thimbronion fleshes out Alcuin will likely just alias pest-spec commands out for simplicity sake.
shinohai: thimbronion: `/wot` sends error to main weechat buffer, if I run `/quote wot` sends it to PEST buffer
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-10-16 12:11:55 thimbronion: asciilifeform: afaik most irc clients won't just pass on the pest control commands - plugins will be needed to support them. After a little bit of research I'm still not sure if weechat will even allow me to send custom commands through to the server via a plugin. In case I'm missing something, how were you thinking the control commands would be passed on from standard
punkman: or /privmsg #pest \COMMAND args
punkman: thimbronion: I have notices coming from PestServ, suppose I could have /privmsg pestserv COMMAND args
thimbronion: asciilifeform: afaik most irc clients won't just pass on the pest control commands - plugins will be needed to support them. After a little bit of research I'm still not sure if weechat will even allow me to send custom commands through to the server via a plugin. In case I'm missing something, how were you thinking the control commands would be passed on from standard
asciilifeform ftr utterly mired in commercial liquishit, but hopes to return to pest spec in ~2w or so
verisimilitude: Say, be there any ``timeline'' goal for Pest ``deployment''; that is, is within the year the current thinking, say?
PeterL: Quote above is from the Vuvuzela paper, seems like they are trying to solve a simmilar set of issues Pest is meant to address
asciilifeform: who the everliving fuck cares that a single irc line can turn into two pest packets!
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-10-04 20:42:06 thimbronion: asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/pest/pest_draft.html#23-the-wot << should be "one or more handles" I think
thimbronion: asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/pest/pest_draft.html#23-the-wot << should be "one or more handles" I think
verisimilitude: I'm also, of course, trying to help with Pest, by looking for problems.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i've no objections, but also don't see why this has to be in pest spec
verisimilitude: I don't intend to use an IRC client for Pest, recall.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: why do you want to store (outside of your personal irc console logs) info that doesn't need to be relayed to any pest peers ?
verisimilitude: I want to design a Pest implementation which stores all messages in a log; how am I to store the hearsay information; it seems this information is only revealed in the hypothetical IRC gateway; there shouldn't be information generated which can't later be regenerated.
verisimilitude: I've a valid complaint about Pest now.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-10-04#1060629 << i'd really NOT like to re-create what imho is the single most dysfunctional aspect of trb, in pest...
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-10-04 03:39:49 punkman: in other complexities, what about compressing messages? would help avoid splitting of ~500 byte irc messages into 2 pest messages. Relevant: https://github.com/facebook/zstd#the-case-for-small-data-compression
signpost: pest seems like a thing to implement as simply as possible, then see what problems one actually has
punkman: in other complexities, what about compressing messages? would help avoid splitting of ~500 byte irc messages into 2 pest messages. Relevant: https://github.com/facebook/zstd#the-case-for-small-data-compression
signpost: exactly. I'm saying punkman does not need this for base-layer pest, and pointing to where it has an application.
asciilifeform: signpost: imho lubyism is a++ for pest-style known-peers net, as the need to separately authenticate the frags falls away (i.e. can generally trust that a direct peer is not sending garbage frag)
asciilifeform: punkman: asciilifeform stole a few hours this wk to update the draft spec, but not accomplished ~anything. and drowning in liquishit nao and indefinitely. will try to answer q's periodically tho. hash (and any other similar item below msg size) oughta go in 0..L of the msg.
asciilifeform concretely wishes to apologize to folx expecting pest spec/implementation, phuctor resurrection, new trb, and any other wunderwaffen; nfi how many, if any, will be able to do in the time remaining.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-29 23:14:25 vex: 1.2.8 is the squid ink pest-like thing new?
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-29#1060187 << nope, was in original 0xFF draft even
signpost: (ftr I agree, and said exactly that with "next-layer-above", i.e. a proggy which sits atop pest)
signpost: obfuscation of the social graph was one of the things high on my list, but it might be a next-layer-above-pest thing.
signpost: asciilifeform: https://loper-os.org/http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-29#1060184pub/pest/pest_draft.html#128-nothing-to-the-snoop << one of my own napkin scribblings contains this, but stations all blast a fixed stream of noise to one another continuously
vex: 1.2.8 is the squid ink pest-like thing new?
punkman: pest in Javascript!
PeterL: pest in virtualBasic!
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-28 13:58:36 punkman: implemented pest operator commands. todo: getdata, rekey, fork handling and some local testing (and review concurrency/locks, probably got some race conditions in there)
punkman: can also think of it as optional hashtags, then you can configure how you want your Pest station to display: - everything in #pest - only untagged messages in #pest, tagged messages in separate channel, - etc
asciilifeform: mno punkman . that garbage shouldn't make it into the pest msg text
asciilifeform: would vastly tangle things up imho, and thoroughly contradict the fundamentals.
asciilifeform: punkman: i.e. you want to bake a pestron which can work >1 net simult.? (and represent as channels)
asciilifeform: punkman: if you think about it, most of the classical rfc that defines irc is simply garbage, and not needed for anyffin in pest
punkman: implemented pest operator commands. todo: getdata, rekey, fork handling and some local testing (and review concurrency/locks, probably got some race conditions in there)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-27 15:50:14 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-27#1059839 << neato. implements whole draft already?!
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-27 15:03:36 punkman: PestIRCD works, so far: 1k lines for IRCD, 1k lines for Pest
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-27#1059839 << neato. implements whole draft already?!
punkman: thinking it would be nice to make a #debug channel, which operator can join to see PestD debug info
punkman: thimbronion: does your pest peer eat packets yet?
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-25#1059617 << hey mats , competitor of yours ? 'Buying real estate in Sweden gives you 6.667x leverage at fixed 1.37% interest for a 5-year term (my offer). It is one of the cheapest leveraged ways to short fiat' etc
punkman: found a small irc server to embed in my pest prototype
asciilifeform: punkman: well, in current draft hmac384
asciilifeform: meanwhile, coupla thoughts re pest cpu cycle shaving :
asciilifeform: aaaand there's the fact that an outsider won't even know where to direct ddos if you have strong opsec.
asciilifeform: PeterL: the cure for ddos as offered in pest is not simply 'can process at nic line rate' but also the ease of switching to fallback line in flight (all you gotta do is to start sending from it, and peers will start replying there as soon as each receives even 1 valid packet from said new line)
asciilifeform: in practice of course you will not have 100% of avail. cpu cycles usable for pest!
asciilifeform: the figures are correct ( for 496 , which is what they weight in current draft ).
asciilifeform: PeterL: if pestism catches on, will be very easy to bake a fpga prefilter, much cheaper (and lower mains current usage) than a beefy x86
asciilifeform: PeterL: let's assume ethernet. so, in bytes, let's calculate 1 packet's mass: 5 (gap) + 4 (preamble) + 14 (eth header) + 20 (ipv4 hdr) + 8 (udp header) + 496 (pest) + 4 (ethernet crc) == 551
asciilifeform: this is why i suggested that guests, bots, etc. run on separate instances of the station proggy
asciilifeform: in current draft, hearsay dupes are mandatorily counted and the count is displayed.
asciilifeform thought this was 100% obvious from the doc -- apparently not ?
billymg: again, this stuff isn't for the folx working on pest and trb, it's for the would-be soldiers among the masses
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-19 23:29:13 asciilifeform: meanwhile, asciilifeform set up a running copy of the current rough draft of pest spec. currently reflects a very partially-done 0xFD. will be kept reasonably current on best-effort basis. please do NOT rely on the item at this link being static, or even consistent !!
asciilifeform: broadcast epilogue; and others.
asciilifeform: meanwhile, asciilifeform set up a running copy of the current rough draft of pest spec. currently reflects a very partially-done 0xFD. will be kept reasonably current on best-effort basis. please do NOT rely on the item at this link being static, or even consistent !!
asciilifeform: apeloyee: here.
apeloyee: so, is Pest intended as a foundation of a more complex thing, or nothing is intended atop it?
asciilifeform: fitting-in-head is an explicitly stated design principle in 0xFE already.
asciilifeform: apeloyee: it is presumed that you ~always~ can contact any peer out of band (i.e. outside of pest)
asciilifeform: apeloyee: btw i considered to have a default rate limit for simple hearsay messages.
asciilifeform: apeloyee: observe that simplicity is a deliberate design goal. concretely, currently there are no 'unions' (in c lang. sense) in pest -- every field has one and strictly one possible meaning.
asciilifeform: ( meanwhile, since perhaps it aint obvious, asciilifeform will explicitly remind readers : pest is arguably an atrocity, in that the Final Solution to the problem it intends to solve, is constant-time-rsa-at-line-rate. and nothing else. but this'd cost 1e9$+ to produce the required iron, and then somehow to get it to erryone who wants to play! so asciilifeform posed the question -- what subset of the desired functional
apeloyee: OK, can you put these statement (what Pest is NOT designed for, maybe w/o explanations) in the next draft?
asciilifeform: apeloyee: it isn't that i can't picture a situation where a simple proxy (eats packets from $ip1, forwards to $ip2, and vice-versa) is useful; but i don't see why to make it part of pest, complicating the protocol and creating multiple types of peering
apeloyee: non-trusted would be useful strictly as proxies. in Pest, stuff they relay cannot be verified.
apeloyee: I meant that not-trusted *direct* peers are routinely used to relay stuff. the internet works that way, in fact. but not Pest.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-09-19 16:24:26 apeloyee: so, Pest isn't designed to operate under high packet loss, or with peers trusted only as far as you can throw them. what else?
asciilifeform: apeloyee: 0xFD pest will operate under any packet loss condition other than 100%
apeloyee: so, Pest isn't designed to operate under high packet loss, or with peers trusted only as far as you can throw them. what else?
asciilifeform: there shall be no slow crypto with valuable longterm key in pest.
user: OK, I'll leave a few stupid comments about Pest spec.
asciilifeform: in fact explicitly strongly recommended that console and client reside in one physical machine. USER/PASS is simply a last-ditch protection against an inadvertently -- even for 5sec -- world-connectable console port.
bomolochus: is username that pest stations understand being on disk a requirement for a functional xchat connection to it as an irc server?
asciilifeform: bomolochus: the reason why 2.5.2 reads: '... This is a password, or a derivative thereof; the exact authentication mechanism is unspecified.' is rather simple :
asciilifeform intends to eventually replace dulapnet server with a 'guest door' into his pest net.
asciilifeform: as far as asciilifeform's concerned, until can replace it & the rest w/ pest nets, #a will serve as the interim replacement for #trb as well.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-16#1058361 << asciilifeform did not specify the frequency with which 'ignore' is issued; but expects that it will happen at least erry coupla min. and as soon as it does, the receiver learns of the gap and getdata's to fill it, neh
shinohai: ty asciilifeform ... Summer travels soon to come to end, perhaps can catch up on "Pest" discussion.
verisimilitude: It's regrettable I've added little good thought to Pest so far, then. I'll need to consider other optimizations and whatnot.
asciilifeform: PeterL: not from an actual pest station, no. from ddoser -- yes
asciilifeform: bomolochus: don't hesitate to ask about the pest spec (didja get a chance to read whole thing? and threads?) -- or anyffin else