asciilifeform: in which capacity it continues to perform a++ (w/ e.g. bernstein's shilling) despite the continued nonexistence of the 'philosopher's stone', err, qc, per se.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-23 13:17:07 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-23#1087292 << in case yer unaware, bernstein turned yrs ago
asciilifeform: crtdaydreams: this was discussed in agonizing detail in the old #t log.
crtdaydreams: nsa stooge
asciilifeform: to round off this subthread -- often enuff ~can~ solve problem, if replace it w/ ~different~ problem, that is solvable w/ avail. means. e.g.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-14 23:52:13 asciilifeform: the contention, phf, wasn't re 'genius may judge' but re whether given $problem in fact solvable under the given constraints, w/ avail. means.
crtdaydreams: !!key crtdaydreams
asciilifeform: ( analogously, fixed-wing plane replaced dirigible. )
crtdaydreams: will be able to do pest when I get home, will need a peer to do nat fwd
asciilifeform must bbl.
crtdaydreams: just don't pile your chairs up on sand
phf: asciilifeform: or perhaps "implement on the wire crypto that minimizes side channel" is a different problem from http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-14#1095752 and has a solution that doesn't number theory breakthrough
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-14 23:26:28 asciilifeform: phf: it isn't asciilifeform's place, in fact, to answer this. elementarily, if there's actually an algo asciilifeform failed to derive that'd permit hammingweight-indep. 4096bit modexp on pc in e.g. 0.004s -- then the discoverer will have the right to laff at asciilifeform and say 'it was defective'
asciilifeform: phf: sidechannel leakage of rsa privkey aint analogous to e.g. leakage of co from furnace -- there aint and cannot be a 'safe level to minimize to' other than 0
asciilifeform: phf: orthogonally to this, fwiw you'll get sub-millisec. modexp w/ ffa (again, in fact faster than mpi's, the latter hadn't barretron) if yer willing to live with small public exponents (e.g. fixated to 65535 a la gpg), simply that asciilifeform wasn't
phf: asciilifeform: i didn't say rsa
asciilifeform: per asciilifeform , these unnecessarily narrow the keyspace (and play along into whatever optimized cracking irons enemy may've built to date)
asciilifeform: phf: can naturally take sumthing other than rsa (e.g. shitoshi, did)
asciilifeform: but then won't be 'simple like kalash.' (even if we ignore the q of 'is ecc intrinsically hard')
crtdaydreams: re: ffa; installed ada some 2hrs ago in prep to go through
crtdaydreams: est. time to complete?
asciilifeform: crtdaydreams: to complete what?
crtdaydreams: read through ffa and do exercises / fit in head
phf: crtdaydreams: 450 hours
asciilifeform: crtdaydreams: will depend on head, lol
crtdaydreams: phf: how little faith :(
phf: so maybe my original point can be restated as: if you define what constitutes defects to your advantage, then produce gems all the time. by eliminating counterparty problem you basically eliminate discourse, making it all monadic
phf: *then can
phf: but also that's maybe why i said "why ada? just write it in bash!" in that thread, which is not a practical advice but a dis. if was talking to linus circa '95, knew the future, would've said "why write it in bash? write in ada!"
asciilifeform: fwiw asciilifeform doesn't sit and narciss at whatever proggy, 'ooh, gem'.
asciilifeform: phf: pertinently, asciilifeform's main crit. of ada is that in fact 'too bash', i.e. insufficiently compact impl. making it difficult to guarantee identical function 'errywhere, 4evah' w/out substantial bootstrap wankology
asciilifeform: (imho a 'light ada' where e.g. oop and other 'heavy' -- mercilessly extirpated, would be a win)
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-17 13:49:32 asciilifeform: but demonstrates the style in which asciilifeform believes a 'bootstrap' oughta be written
phf: i regret tmsr didn't last long enough for us all to write pascal unironically. it would've been a perfect confluence of the ideology
asciilifeform: phf: from asciilifeform's current pov, pascal simply feels like ada w/out some of the better knobs (array slices, etc)
asciilifeform in fact grew up w/ 'borland turbopascal' and many happy memories. but nao sees it through above lens.
asciilifeform: phf: for extra lulz, recall that (after asciilifeform thrown outta the train) folx were 'writing unironically'... php
asciilifeform: so could say 'lived longenuff' in fact
asciilifeform: perhaps if had carried on, could've went to cobol.
asciilifeform to bed
phf: asciilifeform: well, see when i said confluence i meant that php is kind of "writing pascal" but without the engineering part. after everyone suddenly!1 realized that gnat is a beast with many issues, i feel like there was an opportunity to continue down a purity spiral. can see oberon or pascal becoming the next tmsr language
verisimilitude: A better purity spiral is abandoning text entirely.
phf: a better purity spiral is the friends we made along the way
verisimilitude: We're making friends?
crtdaydreams: :D how is your day going; phf, verisimilitude
verisimilitude: I'm fine.
mangol: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-14#1095685 << i've been wondering what took so long with ramping up the weaponized diagnoses
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-14 17:36:01 verisimilitude: ``The average Bitcoin investor is a calculating psychopath with an inflated ego, according to scientists.''
mangol: not every trumpenreich / putler sympathizer is a narcissistic socoipath yet. why not?
mangol: vax skeptics aren't suffering from low grade psychosis. why not?
mangol: alt right readers don't all beat women, etc. i assume this is coming at some point.
mangol: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-14#1095788 << a lot of efforts to up the complexity across the tech stack. industry would go bankrupt & spying thwarted if everything worked well?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-14 23:59:40 asciilifeform: crtdaydreams: the 'qc' memeplex was adapted by nsa & friends to 'fud' actual working crypto (rsa) and peddle questionable and baroquely complicated 'replacements'
mangol: asciilifeform: re yesterday's china thread, is your pov that us and china are essentially joined at the hip whereas ru can potentially break apart?
mangol: in the us a lot of conservatives are "zomg china" about all manner of problems; presumably in cn there are equivalent people saying "zomg us" about everything
mangol: similarly "zomg jews". afaict jews are overrepresented among the [gloves][http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-11#1095158], whence their reputation
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-11 14:36:57 asciilifeform: the faces which do so appear -- changed 'like gloves' regularly
asciilifeform: mangol: lulzy, exactly as per witnesses at the time.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-15#1095834 << easily could've. this would've required some straight hands, tho, to make'em usable, which at that pt weren't available.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-15 00:39:34 phf: asciilifeform: well, see when i said confluence i meant that php is kind of "writing pascal" but without the engineering part. after everyone suddenly!1 realized that gnat is a beast with many issues, i feel like there was an opportunity to continue down a purity spiral. can see oberon or pascal becoming the next tmsr language
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-15#1095840 << luckily, the reaganites destroyed the asylums.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-15 04:43:40 mangol: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-14#1095685 << i've been wondering what took so long with ramping up the weaponized diagnoses
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-15#1095851 << avail. at veterinarian shops for many yrs.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-15 09:06:14 mangol: in cattle tag news, a payment implant is now available for $300
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-15#1095845 << the 'industry' does very little else, lol
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-15 05:16:26 mangol: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-14#1095788 << a lot of efforts to up the complexity across the tech stack. industry would go bankrupt & spying thwarted if everything worked well?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-27 14:42:25 asciilifeform: mangol: moreover, the entire economic underpinning of the field as it exists currently is based on studiously avoiding actual solutions to anything
mangol: funny to read a philosopher tackle economics, since he's free of the latter field's notion that it's virtuous to produce anything that sells
mangol: it's not really clear to me what capitalism (of any flavor) added to the historical model of master / serf
mangol: like democracy, it seems "new and snazzy desktop but kernel is the same old"
mangol: ideally both capitalism and democracy make powerful people responsible for their actions, but that part tends to be conveniently subverted
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-15#1095865 << it freed master from responsibility 'for continuation of life on the land'. a serf or slave is a capital good, needs to be fed year-round whether or not yer plantation is +ev.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-15 11:06:10 mangol: it's not really clear to me what capitalism (of any flavor) added to the historical model of master / serf
asciilifeform: similarly freed for responsibility for the land per se. a feudal lord who wrecked his soil, or allowed it to be overrun with invaders, etc. would suffer consequences on own skin. whereas his modern-day equiv. simply buys new one, just like plebe buys new toyota after 'totaling' previous
asciilifeform: from modern serf's pov, also various 'freedoms', but given as these largely imaginary, imho only interesting from 'psychiatric' pov, and not worth to detail
mangol: "any problem can be solved by another layer of indirection"
mangol: to the extent we have a better standard of living, seems it's mainly due to technology (which masks any number of social ills)
asciilifeform: mangol: from lizard pov, the modern serf's 'better living' is a bug, not feature, like gas leak in pipeline. it is being fixed.
asciilifeform: whereas, conversely, the 'social ills', from that pov, are features, not bugs, and largely result of deliberate experiments at 'bonsai kitten' design
asciilifeform: e.g. destruction of family : entirely deliberate, and has a variety of wins from lizard pov -- force plebes to borrow from usurers; moar easily move'em around to where needed; bonsaikitten w/out family has fewer loyalties that might conflict w/ reich; and so forth
mangol: yep, i gather family is the main enemy of the state
mangol: what's your take on the kalergi plan? (i.e. turn europeans into slave race for the elite)
asciilifeform: incidentally, that process has been going for centuries. 'intact family' aint the item wanked over by american 'conservatives', from 1950; but rather the archaetypical structure seen among chechens, bedouins, pashtuns, et al, where an offense by outsider results in blood debt.
asciilifeform: mangol: not familiar with the particular named meme. (and would ask, why only europeans? is identical plan errywhere)
mangol: it's not a meme, it's a specific book. readable on archive.org iirc
mangol: similar power trip as what rockefellers wrote century ago
mangol: like schwab today, seems no attempt was made to hide the plans
asciilifeform not seen. but to date not impressed with supposed 'tell all confessions' by various schwabs, there's no particular reason why they'd lay out uncensored plan publicly
asciilifeform: they do like to troll the susceptible, but the material in question usually not esp. interesting to the historically literate
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-25 12:38:16 asciilifeform: mangol: reich stratagem is to set up a perceived dichotomy where yer either 'with the program' or out in 'the lonesome deep space', outside the city walls, in company of 'martians did 9-11', etc. illiterates/schizos
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-11 14:40:22 asciilifeform: mangol: generally a plebe who attempts to discover (how?) concretes re identity of lizards, at best ends in a designated glue trap, similar to the kind erry bio lab in the world has for escaped mice.
mangol: these books are general enough that they don't point at specific items which could be used to foil the plans
mangol: e.g. schwab's book doesn't include contact information and staff listing for his volcano lair
asciilifeform: mangol: even if you knew exactly where it was and had with what to glass it, would not put much of a dent in 'plan'. the incentives are structural.
mangol: i suspect the brain is wired to produce one kind of social structure. every deviation from that is a short term detour
mangol: afaict the main ingredient in the kalergi plan was dysgenics
mangol: in schwab's plan, making it impossible to own property
mangol: in rockefellers', unipolar world
mangol: but these are in broad agreement
asciilifeform: mangol: already in no major industrialized country can you own (i.e. allodial title) property, for 200+yr nao
asciilifeform: that process, again, had been in motion for centuries.
asciilifeform: this kinda 'tell-all plan' is wai asciilifeform regards the various schwabs, etc. as disinfo. they present already long-installed auschwitz fences as 'new' and invite gullible reader to 'resist' (largely by wanking into reddit, but at any rate in no case 'resistance' based on fallacious model will have any interesting effect other than inexpensive neutralization of the 'resisters')
mangol: i interpret these books as simple ego trips. i don't think disinfo of this kind is necessary
mangol: 'shit test', as you said. "i can tell people i'll take their stuff, and then i'll take it"
mangol: more fun than simply waiting and taking it
asciilifeform: it is produced for a reason. has similar purpose to blinders on horse.
asciilifeform: the meme re 'ohnoez, implantable credit cards' -- what effect it has, other than to make regular usury look 'conservative' in comparison.
asciilifeform: or the (commonplace in usa) wank re 'destroyed families', with '1950 family' presented as example of 'intact'.
asciilifeform: similarly effective misdirection.
mangol: that sounds overkill to me. would people really wake up en masse to the current scams in the absence of these future scenarios?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-25 12:21:43 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-03-25#1088262 << reich dispensed with all traditional pretenses of anyffin resembling objective stats gathering, publication of negatives, etc. -- not even necessarily because 'ohnoez, mega-death from dud vax' but, likely, simply to troll the noncompliant into tilt
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-25 12:27:23 asciilifeform: 'martianization' plays on the reich plebe's appetite for 'rezistenta prin cultura' (aka wank). it takes all of 10min to convincingly forge the handwritten vax receipt. but no, gotta wank, gotta picket, walk straight into the 'martian' 'free speech zone' conveniently set up by the herders.
asciilifeform: mangol: objective aint to prevent the mythical 'wake up' but to continuously reduce cost of cattle management.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-09 14:00:00 asciilifeform: mangol: how do you picture result of 'wake up' ?
mangol: suppose they want to reduce the cost by making people eat bugs. would people be better equipped to resist bug eating if schwab didn't announce it in books?
asciilifeform: there's a component of global gleichschaltung, but this aint against 'ohnoez, plebes could wakeup' but rather against threat of alt-civilizations which could eat the current reich.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-11 11:59:36 asciilifeform: mangol: in re the bigger picture. and not simply 'east expansion', but that reich rather obv. cannot survive 1) without continuing to get ru fuels & other minerals for ~phree 2) the continued existence of an alt-civilization
mangol: i.e. prison must not have windows from which inmates can peer at the free world?
asciilifeform: mangol: the 'eat bugs' meme has similar purpose to the 'ohnoez, implants' one. 'yes all milk is soy nao but at least they aint feeding us roaches yet'.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-15 12:34:18 asciilifeform: the meme re 'ohnoez, implantable credit cards' -- what effect it has, other than to make regular usury look 'conservative' in comparison.
asciilifeform: mangol: atm there aint a 'free world'. but at one time there were, and lizards existentially terrified that could again be.
asciilifeform: mangol: observe that the 'conservative' memeplex consists entirely of these devices. 'they'll make us, soon', e.g., 'eat bugs', 'own nuffin', 'live w/out families', 'work as slaves', and the reader eagerly forgets that all of these have already happened to him.
asciilifeform: and, often enuff, 100-200y ago, rather than 'soon'.
mangol: i don't get the impression from internet rw sites that people are blinded to their current lot
asciilifeform: 'they'll build radio mind control towers' 'sorry bro, already built, in 1920s, yer tuned into one right nao'
asciilifeform: mangol: take the widespread wankage re 'family'. how many folx in industrialized world have any fucking idea what 'intact family' was.
asciilifeform: the very concept was forgotten there 20+ generations ago.
asciilifeform: so yes, blind.
mangol: 'intact' in what sense?
asciilifeform: in the sense where someone kills yer brother, you & all other adult males in yer clan go and kill two of his.
asciilifeform: and where yer home is ~actually~ yer castle, not metaphorically. complete with artillery.
asciilifeform: but naturally 'ohnoez, that's scary, let's wank re censorship on twatter!' etc
mangol: people talk about stuff like this but it's not actionable beyond buying guns. you'd have to move some place no one cares about, or start a war
asciilifeform: mangol: not all facts 'actionable'.
mangol: how's pining for an older period in history less of a wank than worrying about the future?
asciilifeform: mangol: q is, do you prefer to have a working descriptive model of reality ? for own sake.
mangol: in that case, not mutually exclusive
asciilifeform: sometimes working model comes w/ tangible bonuses (e.g. folx who went long on btc in 2010s, instead of paying into pension fund lulz), but not always
mangol: agreed. this is my interest in the topic as well
mangol: or topics, should say - a whole raft of them
mangol: one more benefit is therapy. if you feel vaguely that the world sucks, it's a relief to get to the bottom of why
asciilifeform: mangol: in either case to asciilifeform idea of playing role of bull in a corrida, charging at red flag, is unappealing. either charge at matador, if get a chance, or simply chew moar grass, either is smarter than 'at flag'
asciilifeform: 'conservative memeplex' -- flag.
mangol: i think you mix the people who charge at the red flag with the people who observe for entertainment
asciilifeform: well imho the 'entertainment' aint partic. entertaining. repetitive rerun of exactly same corrida ad infinitum.
mangol: quite likely that the entertainment value wears off over time. i got into politics very late - one of those naturally apolitical people
mangol: *got into observing
asciilifeform: errything else imho is a guaranteed run in circle.
asciilifeform: the red matador flags are put there because in fact very effective -- chasing the flags feels considerably more like 'resist' to nearly all bulls, than to do the few unsexy, tedious, and in most cases still futile things with which can factually resist.
mangol: great read. i saw that essay when i was a teenager, but was to young to grasp it.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-19 11:19:42 asciilifeform: signpost: re 'why pest' -- asciilifeform is a btc aficionado of the (nearly extinct, possib.) old school -- would like to live in world where can get paid in uninflating, untaxable coinz, and buy necessities of live in same. doubt that anyone living nao will live to see such thing, but asciilifeform specifically interested in work which could make it at least conceivable.
mangol: that's the thing - i don't see the things by which resistance is possible. that's why i don't see much difference between "eat bugs" and "make the people's crypto"
mangol: any number of things would help if a critical mass of people took upon them
mangol: lack of critical mass is the problem
asciilifeform: mangol: it may help to look at subj again after shedding 'desire to feel personally significant' and concern with 'critical masses'.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-02-01 17:45:11 asciilifeform: signpost: the apparatus maintains a caste of parasites with chronic ennui, these spin in place agitproping, 'opensoresing', etc. on own steam, attempting to quench unquenchable thirst of 'feeling significant'
asciilifeform: the actual personal choice available to most people isn't 'sit on arse or defeat reich with own 2 hands'. it's rather 'whether to sing 'horst wessel lied' or 'hatikva' while being gassed.'
mangol: declaring your beliefs when you know it won't help is about feeling personally significant
mangol: "sing reich's song" vs "be silent" is about whether or not you submit mentally
mangol: "spit on rulers' face" is a sentiment some have, but i find it hard to see how the rulers would be affected
asciilifeform: it aint about 'spit in face', tho, but rather such a thing as principles. yes, largely extinct concept.
mangol: principles = 100% about feeling personally significant
mangol: the reich thinks their principles are the ones that matter, and they have the force to back up their claim
asciilifeform: mangol: the 'force' can do 2 things to you -- kill you; or , as muchly prefers, leave you biologically alive but effectively dead inside, by taking the castle inside yer head.
asciilifeform: in the latter case, you become a component of the machine.
mangol: you said earlier that reich is built not to care about beliefs of inmates
asciilifeform: notably, the latter gives over9000x moar 'feel significant', which is why most eagerly pick it even when no one is standing with pistol to his head and 'or die'
mangol: that depends on the person. some can only feel significant by belonging to a group, others only by opposing group. for many, it depends on the group.
mangol: the unquestionably honorable thing to do is to refuse to believe & parrot propaganda
asciilifeform: mangol: observe, atm no one is even pointing pistol and forcing the parrots.
asciilifeform: hasn't been req'd for rather long time.
mangol: well, more like the consequences have been softened
mangol: you can still lose family, job, etc.
asciilifeform: mangol: if yer a high-ranking parrot, and then stop -- yes. otherwise largely mythical.
mangol: if you're talking about most "parrots", tend to have "moderate" views (by current standards, which are extreme historically) formed by information from one source
mangol: so it's not much of a compromise of principles for them
asciilifeform: mangol: the 'they're afraid of losing job' thing is largely a forced meme.
mangol: granted that there are many times when we knowingly compromise principles, and some have opted to do that for a living
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-02-01 17:51:53 asciilifeform: this supposed compulsion, it dun exist either, asciilifeform not 1nce to date heard 'well we'd give you this contract but we looked at yer www and you haven't even once agitated for clitler, kthx bye'
asciilifeform: afaik the compulsion alluded to, is imaginary, other than in cases where the 'victim' in fact deliberately took a job as a kapo, then 'surprised' when was sacked for, well, being defective kapo
mangol: i agree that compulsion to repeat the party line is quite rare. being silent or offering some watered-down version suffices
asciilifeform: revisiting upstack -- if mangol genuinely convinced that 'resist is impossible' and simply in search for most 'entertaining' matador's flags to sink horns into, is welcome to this pov, but asciilifeform not interested, count him out.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-15 13:14:18 mangol: that's the thing - i don't see the things by which resistance is possible. that's why i don't see much difference between "eat bugs" and "make the people's crypto"
mangol: it's obvious contradiction of the party line that can bring trouble
asciilifeform: mangol: consider fact that e.g. asciilifeform's www & pubkey has his human name, and even somewhere postage addr. yet not seen this 'trouble'.
asciilifeform: worth to consider why.
mangol: the key is how visible you are and how visible your controversial opinions are. SJW is about high value targets
asciilifeform: aha, and what makes'em 'high value'
asciilifeform: 'for fucks sake you were hired as a kapo. and nao said 'hitler kaput' ??'
mangol doesn't "sink horns" into politics in the sense of getting emotionally involved. constitutionally quite mellow about society.
mangol: i've always thought i can't do anything about it. but interested in how things work
asciilifeform: tuning into a reddit and eating up 'conservative' wankage is also a kind of 'involve'. and ultimately not costless, was the pt
mangol: i have learned a lot from it. but only been tuned into it for a couple years
mangol: presumably won't learn anything 20 years in
asciilifeform: how much of the 'learned' has any connection to reality tho.
mangol: i've learned a lot about human behavior
phf: where's jerome k.jerome to make fun of informed redditors
asciilifeform: wb phf
phf: jerome seems to be an underrated writer outside of former su, but man had a keen eye and choice words for the previous "informed" generation, the victorians.
asciilifeform: interesting how many american authors (from conan doyle to r.sheckley) only 'alive' nao in ru world
asciilifeform supposes -- inevitable, as the written word continues to die in anglo sphere
phf: jack london, fenimore cooper, even with faulkner, fitzgerald and mark twain only supposed to read approved texts
asciilifeform encountered engl.speaking folx who were surprised when showed 'unapproved' texts
phf: i had plenty of "hello, fellow american!" experiences, where i would start talking about guys above and get back blank stares
asciilifeform: aha, nao often enuff blank stare, 'jack who..?'
phf: i think at some point i want to make a list of mandatory books. something like that was implicit with su intelligentsia "everyone" knew which books one was supposed to read. it won't necessarily be tmsr friendly, tolkien will be on it..
phf: very few books that i read in my 20s were particularly formative, or imho even worthwhile, some were outright trash.
phf: i'm thinking somebody like murakami, everybody read murakami back then, but he's a complete waste of time.
phf: but then take borges/casares/cortazar, they felt very smart, very profound when i read them, but in retrospect what was the point?
asciilifeform: outta curiosity, wai e.g. tolkien, 'unfriendly' ?
phf: my point is perhaps that it's maybe not enough to shame people out of reddit. there needs to be an alternative path, and the tmsr path was too lofty and too complicated. i can't even reduce it to a handful of sentences, and "read 6 months of logs" to extract a pose, a kind of attitude
dulapbot: (trilema) 2016-08-02 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform their characters don't fuck properly. yes, good, as in crafty writer. still has nothing to say besides "god save the queen"
phf: stop reading reddit and do what? when tmsr, "come work on our shit", now a harder sell. "have you read last of the mohican?" "have you tried learning greek?" etc.
phf: asciilifeform: well, there was some substances to it, whether or not t. wrote literature, whether or not it's wothwhile to read pulps (elsewhere in thread)
phf: should conan the barbarian be on the list? what about pkd?
asciilifeform: conan barbarian, conan doyle..
asciilifeform: is interesting, that the age-old q 'wai read pulps' ended up w / a graphic illustration -- 'you'll read'em, or will read reddit'
mangol: or logs lol
asciilifeform: i.e. choose, want to be part of the intellectual tradition that gave you the fucking machine to begin with ? or take yer place in 'greater africa'.
asciilifeform: variation on the theme of 'by their fruits shall know'em'
phf: verisimilitude: lol that's not mine
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: ancient meme, there are over9000 variations
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-11 20:34:18 phf: verisimilitude: virgin official interface user VS chad front page scrapper
verisimilitude: Anyway, I'd be inclined to believe most people in general don't care for reading.
verisimilitude: I don't see this separated by nation.
phf: verisimilitude: an amusing coincidence! :D i've not posted to lainchan in years, because at some point i realized that you end up repeating the same things over and over again, and to what end?
verisimilitude: I find new things to post about; sometimes I don't post for months.
phf: but going back to topic, in this case separation is not by nation, but by ideology, and the ideology is dead. nobody reads in russia same amount they don't read in us
verisimilitude: I question how living it ever were. Historically, most people were illiterate, which is effectively the same as today, in a way.
phf: verisimilitude: on what grounds are you questioning?
verisimilitude: I question on the grounds I wasn't there.
phf: good talk
verisimilitude: For what it's worth, I question the existence of places I've not visited, as well.
phf: if you could read russian you might enjoy this guy https://gorojanin-iz-b.livejournal.com (but might still be worthwhile to browse for many high resolution archival photos), whose main claim is that ancient history was all fabricated by masons starting from about 17th century.
phf: lots and lots of photos "look at this 1890s sphynx photo, it's nothing but a mound of dust, MID CONSTRUCTION, compare to modern"
phf: here he explores colossi of memnon https://gorojanin-iz-b.livejournal.com/91660.html, main claim that early "explorer's" drawings were actually construction blueprints, communicated to the general public back home, while in egypt the construction was ongoing.
verisimilitude: I've read that a few hundred or one thousand years of history or so were just made up by one leader of the Byzantine empire.
thimbronion: See also Graham Hancock re: sphynx
phf: or the great wall of china https://gorojanin-iz-b.livejournal.com/88583.html made of sand, with a thin layer of stone over it!
phf: thimbronion: i think they are from the same school, possibly even share communities
verisimilitude: Even the normal people question some of it, with memes such as ``It sure is cool how the good guys won every war.'' and the like.
phf: there's some value to derive from this guy (i don't know about other people in that circle), outside of flights of fancy (what if history was constructed by masonic vampires!), is just how unreliable information transfer actually is. two points that stand out, that modern preservation techniques restore historic artifacts beyond what a layperson would consider to be "honest". and the second point is just how unreliable many first person
phf: accounts from the past are.
phf: the later is actually fascinating. on one hand you have 17th century explorers drawing things like it's scribbled by a child, with only tenuous connection to reality. on the other hand you have 19th century explorers drawing things with precise architectural detail, that at the same time does not correspond to reality with many glaring differences.
phf: how does this information loss works? is it some kind of cultural bias? was it done intentionally? would've like to read an honest exploration of this subject. from cursory search only has two options: pseudoscience cooks are lying to you, scientists and explorers were perfect at all times, the photos are fake, etc. OR scientists are lying to you, it's all masonic conspiracy
phf: e.g. https://i.imgur.com/9V59jae.jpg from an illustration by http://www.irishegyptology.com/richardpococke
asciilifeform: ^ loox plausibly like effect of acid rain imho
asciilifeform: + possib. some vandalism.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-15#1096048 << pretty sure there's in fact official edition of fomenko (main instigator) in engl
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-15 15:25:32 phf: if you could read russian you might enjoy this guy https://gorojanin-iz-b.livejournal.com (but might still be worthwhile to browse for many high resolution archival photos), whose main claim is that ancient history was all fabricated by masons starting from about 17th century.
phf: asciilifeform: yeah i can definitely see rain and vandalism, but more curious about the discrepancies between reality and illustration e.g. https://i.imgur.com/ldn5XS1.jpg
phf: i mean man is clearly an experienced illustrator, why phone in the work. best explanation i have is "was in a hurry, sketched, filled in later from memory, good enough"
phf: but compare for example with botanical drawings from same period
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-15#1095868 Yes. The more I read about Roman slaves, the more it seems they had it about the same as many workers, with the exception they wouldn't be thrown away at the slightest inconvenience.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-15 11:56:37 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-15#1095865 << it freed master from responsibility 'for continuation of life on the land'. a serf or slave is a capital good, needs to be fed year-round whether or not yer plantation is +ev.
verisimilitude: Working them to death wasn't a good idea, whereas we see how Amazon behaves.
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-15#1095880 Unlike, say, Africans, Europeans aren't natural slaves, at least not anymore.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-15 12:17:28 asciilifeform: mangol: not familiar with the particular named meme. (and would ask, why only europeans? is identical plan errywhere)
verisimilitude: What's a ``kapo''?
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-15#1096069 << aaand they weren't fed mcd or velveeta...
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-15 16:47:30 verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-15#1095868 Yes. The more I read about Roman slaves, the more it seems they had it about the same as many workers, with the exception they wouldn't be thrown away at the slightest inconvenience.
asciilifeform easily buys selected allegations of 'faux sphinxes', but not wholesale
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-15#1096012 << this would be rather welcome.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-15 14:31:56 phf: i think at some point i want to make a list of mandatory books. something like that was implicit with su intelligentsia "everyone" knew which books one was supposed to read. it won't necessarily be tmsr friendly, tolkien will be on it..
signpost: there are plenty I consider indispensible, would contribute.
signpost: particularly my favorite kindly old nazi, heidegger.
crtdaydreams: i seem to remember I could use progn to simplify (yucky use of eval)
dulapbot: (trilema) 2015-09-13 trinque: I'd rather have the index of the right man's bookshelf than access to every landfill on earth for free
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-06-11 trinque: in other failed social theories, I bought that Britannica Great Books of the Western World
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-11-12 trinque: asciilifeform: take a picture of the book spines before selling, for teh uneducated youf
crtdaydreams: mebbe booklist.genesis? that way any reader can see who added certain books and inquire about them if it's a vtree
signpost: hell, I'll go through my own bookshelf soon and post a selection of suggested reading.
signpost: crtdaydreams: seems most appropriate for respective blogs
crtdaydreams: would also like to know if there has ever been (or ever will be) a use-case for homoiconicity
crtdaydreams: (at least in the explicit fashion as above.) it's obviously necessary for macros
verisimilitude: So everyone here will look through my recommended reading articles, or has been looking already, then?
verisimilitude: It has been years since I've recommended everything I review.
verisimilitude: Perhaps my titles should reflect whether something be recommended or not.
asciilifeform: 1 caveat of 'corpus of books' is that many have very diff effect when read in childhood. rather like how you can eat all the meat you like as adult, won't grow even a mm
asciilifeform: (other than, lol, in width)
signpost: kiddos section can be useful for those eventually going to feed kiddos same.
asciilifeform: there yes
crtdaydreams: what am I doing wrong?
phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-15#1096101 << i think it should almost exclusively be kiddos books.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-15 22:28:58 asciilifeform: 1 caveat of 'corpus of books' is that many have very diff effect when read in childhood. rather like how you can eat all the meat you like as adult, won't grow even a mm
phf: like everyone should've read the three musketeers, but further up the age group you go the more non-obvious the must haves become. there's a tendency to recommend the recent "thinker" you've read, which i don't think is particularly useful
asciilifeform: 'wiki.thinkers' -- straight to stoke furnace imho
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-15#1096096 << see e.g. trivial example
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-15 21:45:27 crtdaydreams: would also like to know if there has ever been (or ever will be) a use-case for homoiconicity
phf: like, i'd start from the beginning, what should be the first book one reads, when one is able to read? tom sawyer maybe, white fang, treasure island? :)
asciilifeform at one pt rec'd 'for adults' e.g. feynman's 3parter 'physics', knuth, etc. but how many have time & patience to actually work through these? (e.g. asciilifeform worked through maybe 100, max , exercised in aop, and has no illusions re living longenuff to 'all of it')
asciilifeform: or take feynman's thing, or better -- landau's -- to eat it w/out choking need rather good undergrad prep.
asciilifeform: and the itch to even consider.
asciilifeform: and 'over9000' spare time.
phf: there's definitely "tracks" up the age bracket
phf: i'm reading jeff cooper's the art of rifle. man was a legend, "the art of..." is a foundational book on rifle handling, but, like, landau, will be lost on somebody who's not on this track (of course one can read landau and cooper, and practice what they write, but...)
asciilifeform for intelligent adult w/out maffs diploma or equiv. recs 'flying circus of physics'. (or the wonderful su transl., even better!)
asciilifeform: phf: not read 'art of rifle', but last yr went to meatspace course re subj, was a++ (tho wish were longer..)
asciilifeform: almost ideal imho example of a subj where no amt of book can possibly substitute for hands-on
phf: but also almost an ideal subject where hands on without book is possible and done pervasively, but could be much better with a bit of book learnan'
signpost: as a college dropout who managed to hold hat out like a pauper for books of mentors, the lack of a working mechanism to produce this "corpus digestible in one lifetime, which will produce an educated man" is the surest sign of my culture's bankruptcy.
signpost: did alright holding out the hat, but my luck is no standard for a society.
asciilifeform: re 'nuts & bolts' 'for adults', situation in usa used to be ~very~ different. e.g. l.hogben's 'mathematics for the million' (1936) used to be bestseller; in late '90s was still in print, saw in shops. today forgotten ~entirely.
asciilifeform: example of 'for intelligent adult, who snored through school or simply born too late', from english world
asciilifeform: today whole genre ~extinct
asciilifeform: re fiction -- phf's list is solid start.
asciilifeform: in other vintage engl. 'practicals' for younger folx. tho will evoke laffs from modern folx, 'wai make own clothes hanger, when chinesium fiddycents' 'ohnoez, recipe req's kcn!'
asciilifeform: primo example, tho, of work from world before 'infinite' disposable plastic shite.
asciilifeform: anuther 'adult' rec (in fact multiply mentioned in logs) -- horowitz&hill 'electronics'
asciilifeform: notable for, among other things, featuring extensive examples of subtly-wrong solutions, and inviting reader to 'find where'
dulapbot: (trilema) 2018-05-22 shinohai: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-19#1815611 <<< warez available: http://btcinfo.sdf.org/library/ForrestMims3rdEdition.pdf
asciilifeform: ^ hey shinohai , 404 ?
asciilifeform: who wants, can likely find in 5min
asciilifeform: for thread-completeness, would mention abelson&sussman, but erryone tuned in likely knows of it
asciilifeform: for intelligent children, re subj -- friedman & felleisen's 'schemer' series.
asciilifeform: all of above, from asciilifeform's engl. bookcase, in 'luvved to death in high school' dust collector section.
asciilifeform: for thread-completeness, add hofstadter's entertaining (if mathematically 'light') pieces.