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asciilifeform: i considered even exotics but realized it aint happening in reasonable time frame (and fuck knows what would look like) if did so. so went like so.
asciilifeform: spyked: the tricky bit re 'steal the ultralight threads' is that in order for it to work, you more or less have to have same degree of 'fascism' as in actual erlang, i.e. can't have shared memory, easily-mutable variables, all the other knobs that make 'earthling' threads 'heavy'
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-23 05:56:34 spyked: upstack re erlang: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-22#1930095 <-- imho doesn't sound bad at all, given that e.g. feedbot threads communicate exactly through this type of message queue. meanwhile, I notice that there's a "lisp-flavoured erlang" dialect on teh interwebz, but no idea if worth looking into it
spyked: upstack re erlang: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-22#1930095 <-- imho doesn't sound bad at all, given that e.g. feedbot threads communicate exactly through this type of message queue. meanwhile, I notice that there's a "lisp-flavoured erlang" dialect on teh interwebz, but no idea if worth looking into it
asciilifeform: ( for the curious : 'erlang' had 0 'shared memory' b/w threads. all inter-thread motion was in the form of messages (received in 'atomic' queues internally). these could consist of whatever -- symbols (a la lisp) , for simple 'a/b/c' cases ; strings of bits; etc. a message could be eaten, or forwarded to yet another thread, or even sent back to the sender. )
snsabot: Logged on 2017-03-30 10:50:38 asciilifeform: trinque: erlang wasn't simply about 'uptime', or even 'no pointer arithmetic', it also was the only case i know of where process migration actually worked
asciilifeform: 'erlang' was ultra-fascist 'functional' , i.e. even to make variable in the usual sense is difficult
asciilifeform: ( 'erlang' has a pretty martian syntax that most folx who didn't program in 'ml' or similar , dun have the digestive enzymes for )
asciilifeform actually has working copy of that compiler, 'erlang' , from 2000s (i.e. before the webtards got to 'improving' it) if anyone at some pt wants to experiment with this particular sunken uboat
mp_en_viaje: The official CP1252<->Unicode conversion table is printed in the Unicode 2.0 standard for instance, and is available on <ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/pub/doc/ISO/charsets/> in the file ucs-map-cp1252. [See also the file ftp://ftp.unicode.org/Public/MAPPINGS/VENDORS/MICSFT/WINDOWS/CP1252.TXT at the official Unicode site.]
snsabot: Logged on 2017-03-30 10:50:38 asciilifeform: trinque: erlang wasn't simply about 'uptime', or even 'no pointer arithmetic', it also was the only case i know of where process migration actually worked
snsabot: Logged on 2017-03-30 10:38:11 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i will also nitpick : 'erlang' does not belong in the list, it was a 1980s product that worked quite well in its industrial niche (large telco switches) but was later stolen and used as a totem by the folx from yesterday's thread ( http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-29#1633873 )
a111: Logged on 2018-08-21 17:36 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-20#1843300 << little known fact: slime's architecture was originally implemented in a similar project for erlang called distel, by the same author luke gorrie. lukego also wrote an emacs clone in erlang and tcp/ip stack in cmucl.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-20 21:42 BingoBoingo: Not making Qntra today is Erlang's Joe Armstrong dying.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-20#1909143 << if he had bought it 10y ago, perhaps erlang would still be usable today, nearly as-found, like gnat . but sadly lived long enuff to deliver it to the http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1764882 people..
BingoBoingo: Not making Qntra today is Erlang's Joe Armstrong dying.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-30 14:50 asciilifeform: trinque: erlang wasn't simply about 'uptime', or even 'no pointer arithmetic', it also was the only case i know of where process migration actually worked
a111: Logged on 2017-03-30 14:43 asciilifeform: anyway erlang is imho only worth discussing as part of a larger pattern -- industry after industry independently discovered that c -- and its entire approach to logic -- is poison
a111: Logged on 2017-03-30 14:38 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i will also nitpick : 'erlang' does not belong in the list, it was a 1980s product that worked quite well in its industrial niche (large telco switches) but was later stolen and used as a totem by the folx from yesterday's thread ( http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-29#1633873 )
Mocky: erlang I did look at briefly, but not the concurrency, seemed to me like a puzzle lang
asciilifeform: or even erlang's thread machine
a111: Logged on 2018-08-21 18:26 phf: this is for scripting though, the constraints are presumably not as tight. also gc is a kind of outer bound of a problem, can usually be special cased on a case by case. e.g. in erlang's case you can do region based allocation per process: cons as much as you want, collect everything when process dies.
phf: erlang process
phf: (apparently erlang does that already. gc is a per-process, everything's collected when the process dies, but a very traditional gc can be enabled or disabled also per process. apparently you can also specify process's heap size on allocation, and do things when that heap fills up)
phf: this is for scripting though, the constraints are presumably not as tight. also gc is a kind of outer bound of a problem, can usually be special cased on a case by case. e.g. in erlang's case you can do region based allocation per process: cons as much as you want, collect everything when process dies.
phf: re upstack gotta see how small an erlang vm can really be made. to some extent that work is going to be done with the whole tmsr scripting language direction, where we have different vm's explored on a cutting table.
asciilifeform: even somehow abstracting over these -- proglang with gc is simply not acceptable in safety-critical/crypto proggy. it is at least in principle possible to write cl without cons; but afaik this is not practical in erlang
asciilifeform: phf: i actually liked erlang, and even considered for battlefield, but ended up rejecting for the same reason as standard ml, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-19#1815589
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-20#1843300 << little known fact: slime's architecture was originally implemented in a similar project for erlang called distel, by the same author luke gorrie. lukego also wrote an emacs clone in erlang and tcp/ip stack in cmucl.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-30 14:38 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i will also nitpick : 'erlang' does not belong in the list, it was a 1980s product that worked quite well in its industrial niche (large telco switches) but was later stolen and used as a totem by the folx from yesterday's thread ( http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-29#1633873 )
a111: Logged on 2017-03-30 14:43 asciilifeform: anyway erlang is imho only worth discussing as part of a larger pattern -- industry after industry independently discovered that c -- and its entire approach to logic -- is poison
a111: Logged on 2017-03-30 14:50 asciilifeform: trinque: erlang wasn't simply about 'uptime', or even 'no pointer arithmetic', it also was the only case i know of where process migration actually worked
a111: 61 results for "erlang", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=erlang
asciilifeform: !#s erlang
asciilifeform: http://erlang.org/doc/man/gen_server.html << for expert entomologist. subj.
asciilifeform: nah, ... erlang
asciilifeform: ( granted, it is not an ~impossible~ matter, as it would be if the proggy had been written in pointerlang. but merely ~difficult~. )
BingoBoingo: In still other headlines of the interlanguage frontier: " Trump Tweets “I Should Have Left Them in Jail” About UCLA Basketball Players Arrested in China"
a111: Logged on 2017-07-12 09:21 sina: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680863 << it kind of sounds like an erlang cluster? except I guess you are looking for a network of untrusted nodes while erlang cluster all nodes are trusted
sina: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680863 << it kind of sounds like an erlang cluster? except I guess you are looking for a network of untrusted nodes while erlang cluster all nodes are trusted
asciilifeform: danglingpointerlang
asciilifeform: the typical process is, at megacorp there in some dark closet labours a d00d with long beard who writes, e.g., a log daemon, in erlang. then it gets out and some crackpot www gets 'industry use!' logo.
mircea_popescu: "Google continues the war against their own users. The XMPP Memorial Society trades barbs about whose fault it is that a misdesigned overengineered shitshow of a protocol failed to gain traction amongst non-erlang enthusiasts. Every single messaging platform in current existence is held up as Obviously The Future. Hackernews tries to figure out what Google's master plan is, and why Google is working so hard to make it look li
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-30#1634740 << is that "Concurrent Programming in ERLANG" by armstrong?
a111: Logged on 2017-03-30 14:41 asciilifeform not an erlang user. but did read the 1990 b00k from ericsson.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: iirc at one time ericsson tried to productize erlang.
asciilifeform: there was nothing inherently graphical about erlang (it did not come with a bolix-style editor, or any similar exotica)
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-30#1634740 << for logs - original erlang demo with phones (you've probably seen this alf): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrIjfIjssLE
a111: Logged on 2017-03-30 14:41 asciilifeform not an erlang user. but did read the 1990 b00k from ericsson.
asciilifeform: trinque: erlang wasn't simply about 'uptime', or even 'no pointer arithmetic', it also was the only case i know of where process migration actually worked
trinque: erlang, uptime at all costs
asciilifeform: anyway erlang is imho only worth discussing as part of a larger pattern -- industry after industry independently discovered that c -- and its entire approach to logic -- is poison
asciilifeform not an erlang user. but did read the 1990 b00k from ericsson.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the 1st one, funnily, was in... prolog! 2nd -- erlang.
mircea_popescu: in principle anything that can be run can be compiled, this isn't a matter. the question to you alf is, that "actual optimizing compiler, like gcc", is it WRITTEN IN ERLANG ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i will also nitpick : 'erlang' does not belong in the list, it was a 1980s product that worked quite well in its industrial niche (large telco switches) but was later stolen and used as a totem by the folx from yesterday's thread ( http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-29#1633873 )
mircea_popescu: this includes fucking pascal, let alone erlang, go, rust, java, you name it.
phf: i'm pretty sure cmucl's networking/threading interaction is busted. it shouldn't be, for all practical purposes it's an erlang model (green threads, and async io on vm level), but in practice the code is dodgy..
Framedragger: this somehow reminded me of erlang's "don't be afraid to fail / fail fast" approach: for something to fail / cause exception is OK, always make sure there's something supervising and containing the failure etc. https://tkowal.wordpress.com/2015/10/20/failing-fast-and-slow-in-erlang-and-elixir/ (may not be a great writeup, but has l33t pic with triangle)
deedbot: [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 1163936137487 divides RSA Moduli belonging to 'Tobias Michelis <michelis@mi.uni-erlangen.de>; ' - http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/AA5C25311D1BFAFD266F2A12DD3C1468EF228931255F78A42868CE32662262F3
trinque tips hat to erlang
asciilifeform: neither is sanity limited to lisp world. talk to the ericsson folks, with erlang, what, gonna restart swedish phone grid ?
phf: funkenstein_: alan kay's objects communicate with each other by sending messages. this is the approach taken explicitly in smalltalk, flavors (one of the lisp machine lisps), objective-c. the idea was inspired by john mccarthy's earlier concept of agents, intelligent systems that engage into q/a sessions with a user. a concurrent take on the same idea is called actors model and is implemented in erlang (and a bunch of other languages,
asciilifeform experimented with erlang at great length, on multiple occasions, but cannot bring himself to use it for anything on the battlefield because 1 ) ONE IMPLEMENTATION and 2) IT DOES NOT FIT IN HEAD
assbot: Logged on 14-10-2015 10:27:17; punkman: http://erlang.org/pipermail/erlang-questions/2015-October/086429.html
assbot: [erlang-questions] Mnesia ... ( http://bit.ly/1VRAHQc )
punkman: http://erlang.org/pipermail/erlang-questions/2015-October/086429.html
gabriel_laddel: Bahaahahah the 2nd comment is from Joe Armstrong (created Erlang) and reduces to "yeah, I dunno".
mats: this works better than suggesting folks write code in ocaml, erlang, haskell, etc...
asciilifeform: ('concurrent prog. in erlang', armstrong 1996)
asciilifeform enjoyed the original erlang book, but did not enjoy attempting to write in it
assbot: Look ma, no OS! Deploying an Erlang/OTP application as a LING unikernel in EC2 by Matt Bajor ... ( http://bit.ly/1KKCwoD )
ben_vulpes: mod6, trinque, asciilifeform, anyone else interested in the "what happens in der clord": http://slides.com/technolo-g/intro-to-unikernels-and-erlang-on-xen-ling-demo
williamdunne: Erlang for messaging system
asciilifeform: ditto erlang
assbot: The Cool Kids love Erlang - Gustav Simonsson, Henning Diedrich - Berlin Erlang Factory Lite on Vimeo ... ( http://bit.ly/1wKhG0x )
asciilifeform: ('erlang' is a programming language, similar to 'prolog'...)
mircea_popescu: and also, i kinda want an eulora erlang.
mircea_popescu: anyway, someone should make an erlang with triple mode verbs and complete declension. need like 130 iq to speak it.
Vexual: but if you're asking i'll say if it can't be done with erlang and perl it's not worth doing
Diablo-D3: bounce: I had a love affair with erlang for awhile
benkay: naw erlang's great if you can't wrap your head around lisp
Diablo-D3: going from erlang to english isnt a great transition
Diablo-D3: Im doing it as my "learn erlang" project
Diablo-D3: erlang + postgresql == win
inhies: erlang... i should've known
Diablo-D3: foundation and erlang > bootstrap and go
Diablo-D3: usagi: yeah, theres really no reason not to use erlang at this point
Diablo-D3: <3 erlang
Diablo-D3: fiat500: go learn erlang


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