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deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/9EB8CD220CEE179362FCED1E03EAE1189209BA1BB060FC776B50744DED80C55E << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1527...8493 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '150.145.58.11 (ssh-rsa key from 150.145.58.11 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (clock.le.imm.cnr.it. IT)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/9EB8CD220CEE179362FCED1E03EAE1189209BA1BB060FC776B50744DED80C55E << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1634...0927 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '150.145.58.11 (ssh-rsa key from 150.145.58.11 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (clock.le.imm.cnr.it. IT)
sina: evening tmsr
sina: asciilifeform: curious about your thoughts on https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/
shinohai can almost hear asciilifeform saying "GNU crapolade!!!!!!" right nao ....
sina: hi shinohai :)
mod6: mornin'
mircea_popescu: hey sina. how's tricks
mircea_popescu re-reads drag discussion from yest, realises it is a very fundamental process at the root of socialist empire. consider what happened :
mircea_popescu: reasonably bright, diligent fellow, who also happens to http://trilema.com/2016/please-stop-using-dns-already-and-other-considerations/#selection-711.0-711.610 ended up believing himself 1. NOT in a position to evaluate a claim as to distance because he "can not calculate drag from the human body" ; and then consequently 2. ACCEPT some wikitardation as legitimate on the basis that a) he's impotent (as demonstrated by his cont
mircea_popescu: act with entirely irrelevany complicacy) and b) they're "many", which obviously matters. that they're many ~sybils~ does not matter, for reasons unexplained.
mircea_popescu: now THIS is what we mean by "learned helplessness" in each and every single instance where that term of art is used. guy who could, and on the basis of having passed into 9th grade somehow SHOULD, evaluate a claim as to factuality, accuracy, correctness etcetera fails to do so. the failure is not organic but psychogenic. the replacement of sanity with socialistard blather follows from this, because you know, gotta say somethi
mircea_popescu: ng, so let's discuss the differences between signal and telegram, trump and hilarity, two cans of pepsi.
mircea_popescu: this pretty much sits at the core of the whole dispute. by "fit in head" tmsr simply means "do not engage irrelevant complicacy". complicacy serves as a term of art here, to denote things that are constructively complicated, as opposed to the naturally complicated. what your woman means when she speaks is complicated ; but marriage is complicacy.
mircea_popescu: this is not said once, but multiple times and in multiple aspects ( take http://trilema.com/2014/how-to-deal-with-pseudoscience/ for instance, or phf's comment re cyphercomms, or tons and tons of others), and it all comes to the same root : IF you engage irrelevancy, you will arrive at wrong results. IF you engage irrelevant complicacy, you will arive at an unwarranted misjudgement of yourself -- you will think yourself impot
mircea_popescu: ent. this is not humility, but psychosis, and of the saddest kind. you CAN actually MAKE yourself impotent by insisting with it -- and it works equally well with erections as with thoughts.
mircea_popescu: whenever i write fiction about rando anglotard gleefully jumping into a steel cock cage the usual gleeful anglotard response is that "he just dun understand what could possibly possess dude in story to behave thusly". nevertheless, when presented with the exact, point-by-point equivalent for their head, they without exception jump right in, which creates the very strange yet picturesque situation where a buncha doods with ste
mircea_popescu: el headcages wonder why would a literary character stick one on his dick.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile on the other side, what the chumpmasters are doing is simply create and inject irrelevant complicacy. people discussing splat distance ? let's talk about drag. it is a 0.1% factor at the most, so let's discuss it. people wanna pick a president ? let's find out who said nigger more times. this matters, to 0.1% or below, so let's focus on that. etcetera and forever, and amusingly enough they replicate it.
mircea_popescu: no fucking idea as of yet why or how that works, but they DO replicate it.
mircea_popescu: in any case - i can't calculate drag from human body either, nor can anyone else. there's a reason for both http://btcbase.org/log/2014-03-19#567906 and wind tunnels irl : it's a measured, not calculated.
a111: Logged on 2014-03-19 19:04 asciilifeform: and, finally, his moment arrived! von Kármán surrendered his orange ticket, took a deep breath, and said, "God, explain turbulence." Theodore von Kármán spent the rest of eternity burning in Hell.'
mircea_popescu: (and (on the basis of (having passed into 9th grade somehow)) SHOULD)
mircea_popescu: holy shit ima end up writing lispex.
shinohai checks to see if it evals ....
mircea_popescu: lol
mircea_popescu: just think that somehow "race" is a legitimate topic of conversation in a country undergoing full economic collapse where black people are 12% by headcount and 5% if that by capital.
mircea_popescu: i dunno what could be more irrelevant to the united states than the fate of blacks these days, but hey. maybe russian spies.
mircea_popescu: campus rape, cyberpedos, whatever moral panics.
mircea_popescu: and yet -- the thing with blacks is complicated. the economic situation -- not.
mircea_popescu: the matter of disciplining the us population into 90% consumption cuts and 50% productivity gains over the next three to five years is not even vaguely contemplated, amusingly enough.
mircea_popescu: at least the argentards had this in their press, back in 2014, editorials and shit about how "the international neocapitalists" try to make them work moar and waste less, and how THEY ARE ORGANIZED AND WILL RESIST!!1
mod6: too easy to ctrl+p
mircea_popescu: mod6 i think the matter is more, 3rd world understands it is shit, looks up to eu, us, whatever. small brother syndrome. whereas us misperceives itself as civilised, which it isn't nor ever was, and top of teh pile, so couldn't possibly be anyhone to look up to (except of course france, but we dun like to talk about that, liberty fries ha-ha!)
mircea_popescu: anyway -- younger siblings never hit the bottle QUITE like the eldest son.
mod6: ah, fair enough
mircea_popescu: that's why if you have boys it's always a great idea to have two. the first fucking up comes with an almost certainty the 2nd will come out alright.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> at least the argentards had this in their press, back in 2014, editorials and shit about how "the international neocapitalists" try to make them work moar and waste less, and how THEY ARE ORGANIZED AND WILL RESIST!!1 << Prolly wouldn't make it past typical US head plugs
mircea_popescu: im sure.
mircea_popescu goes to dig out that article, it was a riot.
BingoBoingo: The ones who do realize may have the wrong reaction (build a bunker, stockpile canned goods) but they exist on the Trump voting part of the US-sorting
BingoBoingo: Part of pantsuit voter's induction to voting pantisuit is the infection with belief they CAN'T be made to do anything.
BingoBoingo: Hence, the 1200 gender-disabilities on campus that all need "reasonable accomodations" during exams
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-07#1680023 << 'guile' is a steaming pile of shit
a111: Logged on 2017-07-07 11:22 sina: asciilifeform: curious about your thoughts on https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/
mircea_popescu: well, google dun have it, because nobody gives a shit about the anglotards, and for good reason. but here it is :
mircea_popescu: la globalizacion financiera, la deuda ilegitima y el nuevo curso, by jorge muracciole, "sociologo" no less (tiempo argentino, #1487, june 30 2014, page 24)
mircea_popescu: dias despues de la implosion de la convertibilidad, a pesar del marasmo economico, el hartazgo social y la crisis de conduccion politica, tres ideas diferenciadas campeaban en las cabezas de los devaluados referentes politicos que habian sobrevivido de la debacle economica politica y social mas profunda de las ultimas decadas.
mircea_popescu: los referentes de la derecha liberal estaban dispuestos utopicamente a reincidir en las recetas ajustistas y, amparados por la emergencia, apostaban a implementar el disciplinamiento social, aprovechandose de los elevados indices de desocupacion, sin privarse de la variante represiva en caso que fuera necesario. esos intentos fueron derrotados en las calles con la movilizacion callejera, y en las urnas con el abandono de la c
mircea_popescu: andidatura en segunda vuelta del maximo exponente del 'neoliberalismo-peronista' en el otono de 2003.
asciilifeform: marasmo economico << lol
mircea_popescu: on it goes in that vein, and you should see what a barely literate "diputado nacional" by the name eduardo "wado" de pedro had to say.
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/F3863F4DD4389CA8A3A883920C064484A76114DE2A4C11C1418217EE6BCEC912 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1355...4549 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '212.127.69.33 (ssh-rsa key from 212.127.69.33 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown PL DS)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/F3863F4DD4389CA8A3A883920C064484A76114DE2A4C11C1418217EE6BCEC912 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1381...3877 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '212.127.69.33 (ssh-rsa key from 212.127.69.33 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown PL DS)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i certify the term is apt. i have NEVER seen a country in worse economic shit, including 1980s kazakhstan.
asciilifeform: http://212.127.69.33/contact << lel
asciilifeform: jeszcze polska ne zginela !
mircea_popescu: to briefly revisit http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-07#1680050 : the fact that us cattlehead consumption power dropped about 80% in the past three decades (ie, since the 80s, ie since http://trilema.com/2015/other-peoples-money/ or in other words since the political decision was made to simply give up, lay down and die) is ALSO remarkably absent from the fanfics.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-07 15:27 mircea_popescu: the matter of disciplining the us population into 90% consumption cuts and 50% productivity gains over the next three to five years is not even vaguely contemplated, amusingly enough.
asciilifeform: moar than 80 % if you count the children they ain't having
mircea_popescu: very true.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-07#1680050 << why would the frog boiler chef publicly discuss, to the frogs, the subject of their preparation ?
a111: Logged on 2017-07-07 15:27 mircea_popescu: the matter of disciplining the us population into 90% consumption cuts and 50% productivity gains over the next three to five years is not even vaguely contemplated, amusingly enough.
asciilifeform: will instead discuss anything, ANYTHING else.
mircea_popescu: it pretends to be a state
mircea_popescu: you know, like argentina. "the debt dispute is very debalanced,. becayuse it opposes a tiny group of vulture capialists to a NATIONAL STATE!!!"
asciilifeform: didn't mircea_popescu have an article re greece, where, 'if idiot throws money into a toilet, he is doubly idiotic for expecting to see it again' or how did it go.
mircea_popescu: you understand trhis is where apple's "offsore" "could buy russia" stash is, right ?
asciilifeform: argentina?!
mircea_popescu: "investments"
asciilifeform: or the greek eu credit
asciilifeform: ah
asciilifeform: same nonsense as the 'mortgage assets' locally
mircea_popescu: exactly same
asciilifeform: !!up gabriel_laddel_p
deedbot: gabriel_laddel_p voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: turns out that ownership without ownership doth not work very well.
gabriel_laddel_p: asciilifeform: got it.
gabriel_laddel_p: Ty.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel_p: yer welcome
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel_p: did it work for what you were doing ?
asciilifeform sent the d00d an old lappy a while back
gabriel_laddel_p: asciilifeform: remains to be seen. Have not yet compiled masamune for 32bit.
asciilifeform: it's a 64
gabriel_laddel_p: Odd. b/c my resucecd won't work unless using 32 bit kernel.
mircea_popescu: strangely, i am not very shocked by the turn of this covnersation.
asciilifeform: lol
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i sent g_l a surplus 'x61', complete with pen. not a bad box, though weathered
mircea_popescu: i was here.
gabriel_laddel_p: other AML news: If you send bountysource claims to a paypal whose name differs from your screename, the transaction will send, and then paypal will disappear the transaction from the history of the account you sent it to, and remove the funds + bountysource will not respond to emails regarding the matter.
asciilifeform: wat's a bountysource
gabriel_laddel_p: https://www.bountysource.com/
asciilifeform: i take it, a /dev/null for money
asciilifeform: lol, resembles ye olde 'rentacoder' scamatron
gabriel_laddel_p: I found it to be quite usable until I ended up owing someone for money I'd already spent.
asciilifeform: 'jcomeauictx wrote: getting started. sponsor: do you know that Bountysource hasn't been paying out escrowed funds to coders for several weeks now? I'm putting this on hold until I hear from Rappo about this. [2017-06-21T21:35:27PDT got my funds a few minutes ago. front burner again.]'
asciilifeform: lulzy, complete with (presumably) partial payola to keep 'top' chumps stfu-ing
asciilifeform: https://www.bountysource.com/people/19615-gabriel-laddel << gabriel_laddel_p -- yours ?
gabriel_laddel_p: yep.
asciilifeform: https://blog.codinghorror.com/can-you-really-rent-a-coder/ << see also
mircea_popescu: tis hard out there for a pimp
mircea_popescu: when he trynna make dat mony for da rent...
asciilifeform: pretty sure d00d has problems but rent aint one
mircea_popescu: 99 problems to be exact ?
asciilifeform: ( lives in a corner of a university library , or somesuch )
asciilifeform: 254 problems.
mircea_popescu: did i tell the story of this art major chick who becoming homeless ended up living inside one of her creations ?
asciilifeform: Hungerkünstler !
mircea_popescu: either that or jonas. but anyway. tru story.
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/E9B8C5178937E2E34273CC6EB1A94CE3254DCA5C3703E699FB9E0E11877D7877 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1691...2237 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '89.185.242.126 (ssh-rsa key from 89.185.242.126 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (cenda.apedia.com. CZ)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/E9B8C5178937E2E34273CC6EB1A94CE3254DCA5C3703E699FB9E0E11877D7877 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1734...3457 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '89.185.242.126 (ssh-rsa key from 89.185.242.126 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (cenda.apedia.com. CZ)
asciilifeform: http://www.e-ubytovani.eu ^ << jurov ?
mircea_popescu: why ?
asciilifeform: czechs
mircea_popescu: iirc he's slovak
asciilifeform: if i'm an ukr, he can be a czech, lel
mircea_popescu: so wait, that makes it his website ?
asciilifeform: lolno
asciilifeform: just relevant!11
mircea_popescu: to his being czech ?
asciilifeform: aha. who knows, he might've seen it prior.
mircea_popescu: i see!
asciilifeform: mebbe it's the czechoslovak airbnb, etc.
mircea_popescu: ima start doing this to you with whores working the wash dc conference circuit.
mircea_popescu: "you know belinda ? the tall one with fake tits ?"
asciilifeform: lolgranted
trinque: "hey trinque, I saw this guy with a big hat. you know him?"
mircea_popescu: "did he spit tobacco ?"
asciilifeform notices that OTHER side of glued shoe, has nao come apart
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> "you know belinda ? the tall one with fake tits ?" << lmao
mircea_popescu: ikr?
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-07#1680033 << btw this brought back to mind http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-27#1648764, in that usglandia snuffs by way of environmental catastrophe folks who don't like the smell of complicacy.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-07 15:03 mircea_popescu: this pretty much sits at the core of the whole dispute. by "fit in head" tmsr simply means "do not engage irrelevant complicacy". complicacy serves as a term of art here, to denote things that are constructively complicated, as opposed to the naturally complicated. what your woman means when she speaks is complicated ; but marriage is complicacy.
a111: Logged on 2017-04-27 18:59 mircea_popescu: inb4 us medical profession wakes up to the sad fact that the raise in autism has nothing to do with ~organic~ causes. the kids just don't like the environment any, opt out.
mircea_popescu: rather.
asciilifeform: re 'opt out', there was a similar phenomenon visible in, e.g., auschwitz.
trinque knows a bright young man who didn't say much until about 5yrs old; when he got old enough to judge his surroundings, blood rage.
trinque: gives me a glimmer of optimism for "teh kids"
asciilifeform: trinque: i knew a d00d who had to spend much time, money, to save his 5yo 'illicitly nontalking' son from 'speshul' school and forced dopings
mircea_popescu: there's no papering over hell ; or there can never be a socialist solution to reality.
asciilifeform: (kid would talk just fine at home. just not in the public hell)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no. you know a dude who in preference of saving his kid, spent a lot of time and money saving his allegiance to the socialist state.
mircea_popescu: ticket to azerbaijan still $2k.
asciilifeform: less
mircea_popescu: well gotta take the kid also neh
asciilifeform: tru!1
trinque: I just told him he was right, and kid had a lot less cognitive dissonance to endure.
mircea_popescu: but the important point -- contrary to the dood's own mendacious misrepresentation, the time and money was NOT spent on the kid.
asciilifeform: this was indeed a fella who ( afaik ) had never left good ol' gringolandia
mircea_popescu: gotta fix them symptoms and where's the dial glue.
mircea_popescu is vaguely amusing at the whole ustardian faux-art... what shall we call it, it;s not a profession, how about community ?
mircea_popescu: because nobody came up with the obvious idea of a lulzworkshop. clearly labeled "dial glue" and other such useful items.
asciilifeform: where was that pic, of the menstruarium
mircea_popescu: between the alaptarium and the leprosorium!
asciilifeform: http://archive.is/lwgxZ << heeere we go.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform btw, in other lulz : ro for straightedge geometry tool is "echer". obviously from french equerre, but i always told people it's from escher.
asciilifeform: lol!
mircea_popescu: in fairness it fucking should be.
asciilifeform: verily.
mircea_popescu: but imagine, you know, an ancient all steel 8086 case, with a wired mouse on the right and a round metal box on the left, also wired in. box clearly labeled, "#@$!#", and inside, some dead bugs.
mircea_popescu: wtf is art for even ?
mircea_popescu: (the butt of this joke being "but listen, 8086 didn't have mice yet!" "nor bugs.")
mircea_popescu: if they did that sort of shit, i could almost respect artists.
mircea_popescu: but irl, what passes for artists is randal mcfuckhead, what's his name, with the unviolated rights of opressed minorities.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-07#1679877 << see also!
a111: Logged on 2017-07-07 01:28 asciilifeform: in practice, enthusiastic halfwits dun have much originality in their works.
mircea_popescu: yeah
mircea_popescu: anyway, between this "the vermin came later" 8086 installation, the bottle of dial glue, a pile of equerres labeled "a collection of eschers" and so on, there's just about enough for a collaborative exhibition. and yet...
asciilifeform actually had a mouse with the 8086. serial port thing. marvelled at its uselessness
mircea_popescu: i had one too, wide 21 pin thing
asciilifeform: aha, them!!
mircea_popescu: and with this, #trilema stands firmly entrenched at the forefront of anglo cultural space, and at a considerable distance from the rest of the troop, at that!\
mircea_popescu: "It's an insoluble problem. Furthermore, I think most bug tracking systems fail us because they make us ask the wrong questions. They force you to pick a side. Hatfields vs. McCoys. Coke vs. Pepsi. Bug vs. Feature Request. It's a painful and arbitrary decision, because most of the time, it's both. There's no difference between a bug and a feature request from the user's perspective. If you want to do something with an applica
mircea_popescu: tion (or website) and you can't do it because that feature isn't implemented -- how is that any different than not being able to do something due to an error message?"
mircea_popescu: so jeff atwood is fucking retarded, basically.
mircea_popescu: anyway, fuck him. let's wash the useemly americana out with some cosideration of the beauty of reasoned truth. so : pappus was this greek from alexandria who first documentedly observed that if given two sets of colinear points, then the intersections of the lines uniting them will also be colinear. the beauty is that this theorem holds in all projective planes built over fields, but does not hold in projective planes derived
mircea_popescu: from a noncomutative division ring.
mircea_popescu: in other words, there's a relation between comutativity and colinearity, of all things!
mircea_popescu: and obviously, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-04#1679049
a111: Logged on 2017-07-04 14:12 asciilifeform: one hint -- look at 'screw' as a modular congruence
jurov: asciilifeform: never heard about e-ubytovani before
asciilifeform: jurov: aite, ty
asciilifeform: in other lulz re ye olde http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-03#1665150 >>> https://blog.regehr.org/archives/1520
a111: Logged on 2017-06-03 02:41 asciilifeform: you can't actually write a nontrivial c proggy without undefined behaviour.
asciilifeform: ( tldr : folx continue to administer medicine to the corpse )
asciilifeform: but meanwhile, from asciilifeform's 'vintage USEFUL material' file, http://programming.sirrida.de/bit_perm.html .
asciilifeform: ^ mechanics of shuffles, Beneš networks, etc.
BingoBoingo: !!Up EIC
deedbot: EIC voiced for 30 minutes.
BingoBoingo: Hello EIC
BingoBoingo: Who is your daddy and what does he do?
EIC: hello all. my daddy's retired.
mircea_popescu: heh
mircea_popescu: !!up EIC
deedbot: EIC voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: EIC ok, so how's taiwan and what brings you here ?
shinohai: lol you scared him off!
mircea_popescu: aww
mircea_popescu: !!up EIC
deedbot: EIC voiced for 30 minutes.
EIC: i was checking out trilema.com. feels a lot like the anarplex.net approach. more active here.
mircea_popescu: i never seen that one.
EIC: worth checking out #Agora via tor. quiet, but similar thinking.
mircea_popescu: and if one checks it not via tor ?
mircea_popescu: oh this is a whol;e network ?
EIC: i think there's a clearnet address, but no one really uses it.
EIC: IRC.
mircea_popescu: i'd use it, why not.
EIC: it's inhabited by crypto-geeks sworn to absolute secrecy.
EIC: that's about the main reason no one uses clearnet
EIC: good folks, though.
mircea_popescu: anarplex.net 6667 or are the internet dweebs sworn to absolute wankery also weird about their constants ?
EIC: hold on...
EIC: https://anarplex.net/
mircea_popescu: yes but what port.
shinohai: https://anarplex.net/agorairc/connect.html
shinohai: ^
mircea_popescu: a ty
phf: dorknet
EIC: 14716 clearnet, 6667 tor
shinohai: "Connection is already encrypted by Tor, so do NOT enable additional SSL for the connection. " <<< lmao
EIC: cfyfz6afpgfeirst.onion
mircea_popescu: shinohai also weird re constants. 14716. anyway ima kiwiirc if any of the locals developed a taste for watching these
phf: that's all i have really, it's 1am in vienna, and i know for a fact there's at least 3 parties going on right now, but i'm kind of beat and sort of thinking about going to sleep. is that how old age feels?
mircea_popescu: phf not yet.
mircea_popescu: EIC well, can't connect. i dunno, tell them if anyone cares and let me know when they get around to fixing it ?
EIC: i'm connected, so it's working.
EIC: not sure what's up.
EIC: let me check on something...
mircea_popescu: kiwiirc.com/client, server agora.anarplex.net port 14716
mircea_popescu: does it werk ?
shinohai: kiwi is fickle about ssl connections iirc
mircea_popescu: it has a box, i didn't check it
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/on-trisection-a-humble-contribution/ << Trilema - On trisection, a humble contribution
EIC: maybe the expired certificate is causing problems with kiwi?
mircea_popescu: no idea. let's see the other one, what was it
EIC: here's a web client: https://anarplex.net/webirc/
mircea_popescu: aty
mircea_popescu: 404 ?
EIC: cfyfz6afpgfeirst.onion:6667
mircea_popescu: ayaya check out this crazy shit : https://anarplex.net/webirc 404s, but https://anarplex.net/webirc/ actually has a copy of freenode's old client. lessee
mircea_popescu: alright, im in, coupla dozen ppl there
EIC: yeah. old timers. cypherpunks and wanna-bees
mircea_popescu: [19:07] == fhp [user@mynet0id.d0q.ejevp0.IP] has joined #agora << this text snippet has gone through seven proxies.
EIC: bbiab
EIC: i get the feeling this is a tight knit group...
mircea_popescu: which ?
EIC: not sure i can cleanly define a subset - too new still. just that feelin'
mircea_popescu: you mean #trilema ? here's a part of the magnificent new tech of the republic : you too can be just as old as everyone, as soon as you get arouind to it!
mircea_popescu: there's logs! like http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-07#1680268
a111: Logged on 2017-07-07 23:21 mircea_popescu: you mean #trilema ? here's a part of the magnificent new tech of the republic : you too can be just as old as everyone, as soon as you get arouind to it!
EIC: all it takes is time...
mircea_popescu: they can be searched, and so on.
mircea_popescu: !!up EIC
deedbot: EIC voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: consider regiustering your key with deedbot so you can self voice
mircea_popescu: EIC https://anarplex.net/hosted/files/secondrealm/blog_post.html << the obvious objections being that formally this reads just like yet another ustarded neoprotestant "i heard there's a world yesterday and here's how to fix it" tract, as so many before starting with abolitionism and aparently never endingly ; and fundamentally that "autonomy" is utterly naive. i do not permit autonomy my slavegirls, in the sense they don't ge
mircea_popescu: t to "come up with their own reasons" as to whether they're studying basic arithmetics or not ; i DO permit them autonomy in the sense that if they bring me a dead body i'll get rid of it rather than you know, "report it to the police".
mircea_popescu: this should be enough to illustrate why exactly the linked piece is yet another paradoxing trisection. though dudley would predict it won't work.
mircea_popescu: anyway, to answer the original question, no. new people join all the time.
asciilifeform read linked piece, maxed out anglotardism dosimeter
mircea_popescu: tis hard out there for a pimp
asciilifeform: and if i had a bitcent for every 'anarchist' pushing usg.tor...
mircea_popescu: im not even sure why this would be relevant. i'm there on a web browser, nothing happened as of yet.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: their www seems to be one of those 'onion to http converter' things
asciilifeform: hence the snail speed
mircea_popescu: ah, so like a catholic church where i take two whores in see through garb and they automagically and behind the scenes deck them in white veils, redo their hair to less brothely and sprinkle holyt water everywhere ?
mircea_popescu: in truth, if that's how church went i'd have possibly even gone.
mircea_popescu likes the idea
asciilifeform: sumthinglikethis
mircea_popescu: check it out, i've even officially been on tor nao.
mircea_popescu: a most productive eveninfg
phf: "Since we have had several downtimes of our clearnet gateways, all regular visitors are advised to bookmark the darknet addresses as well."
mircea_popescu: phf are you intimating they're just letting me get addicted after which they'll reel me in ???
phf: nah, just confirming asciilifeform
mircea_popescu: aok then
phf: i have shortage of snark
mircea_popescu: mine reloads while i sleep.
phf: but i take it the roots of these people is the weird california http://www.rawillumination.net/2011/02/interview-with-kevin-macardry-as-ive.html their author guy is interviewed by a robert anton wilson fanblog, and they are namedropping all the different things that were cool in the 80s
mircea_popescu: i bought one of those "make snark while you sleep" things
mircea_popescu: phf its actually both a pity and impenetrable to me, why exactly weird california never actually happy.
shinohai: Snark-o-tron 9000
mircea_popescu: happened*
mircea_popescu: i mean, slightly weird but mostly unwashed seattle happened. wtf was wrong with california ?
mircea_popescu: there was a once almost-worthy frisco-as-seen-by-crumb. where is it and wtf ate it and ???
phf: mondo 2000, the proto valley crowd, i think we had the thread. basically, jwz.
mircea_popescu: porn valley took over the world. silicon valley did jack the fuck shit already. why ?
mircea_popescu: and plox don't tell me "it's because your instruments are dirty, in factr apple could buy russia", as these discussions usually tend to go.
asciilifeform: 'For the past decade I've been a professional agorist, still doing software but working on projects calculated to assist other livestock in getting off the farm as well.'
mircea_popescu: :)
mircea_popescu: i expect he lives in chile, amirite.
asciilifeform: ' Well, in the early 2000s I did a secure webmail service which was hosted on Sealand. I've always considered that the control of money and payment systems was the linchpin of farm control mechanisms, so following that I became involved in the digital gold currency (DGC) industry. For the past several years I've been involved with a project related to the virtualization of stored value using cryptographically signed digital bearer cert
asciilifeform: didjaknow!!
mircea_popescu: this is getting sad.
asciilifeform: 2011!!
mircea_popescu: hiow did that go, "local mathematician scores near miss".
mircea_popescu: i recall now why i recalled u dudley's piece so firmly. it was because the undescribably sad.
phf: (check it, their second realm book starts out with TAZ in the subtitle, and that was the mondo 2000 thing, that we're going to build anarchist communes online. idiots, hakim bey came out and said very explicitly that the last chapter of TAZ where he ~speculated~ that internet might have a potential for TAZ was a mistake and to not please refer to your "cybercommunes" as TAZ'es anymore)
mircea_popescu: death of the author, bish. he can't say anything, fanfic has established the epileptic trees!
asciilifeform: TAZ >> '...Будь попрочнее старый таз, Длиннее был бы мой рассказ.' comes to mind for some reason.
mircea_popescu: anyway, this existed in romania too, weirdly enough just about syncrhonously, early 90s. it was an incredible collection of chicks nobody would fuck with a hog's dick and really pedosmiled older dudes.
mircea_popescu: was later an anchor to try and give blogging a bad name, decade later phenomenon.
mircea_popescu: buncha tripod sites and such.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform naively imagined that the sr-flavoured honeypot 'agora' would have perma-nuked the 'brand' of 'agorism'
mircea_popescu: hello tightknittly brother sina
asciilifeform: but apparently not
sina waves
sina: how all today
sina: weekend!
sina: such excite.
mircea_popescu: we don't have weeks on this planet.
asciilifeform: ^
sina: y'all don't have nothin'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aren;t you proud ? but well done, there's nothing more fulfilling than for man to achieve goal he sets for himself.
sina: literally told me you don't believe in time!
mircea_popescu: sina it's a "sleep ad libitum" joke.
sina: :D
asciilifeform: sina: see logs
sina: mircea_popescu: you wanna play with this gossipthing yet?! otherwise I'
sina: 'ma tear down the shithost
mircea_popescu: sina honestly i kinda got the tech stuff i wanted to see already, but let's do one so it actually works and there's a "first line exchanged through prototype".
sina: yeah cool that's pretty much what I thought after yoru comments re sqlite/rsa being the main things needing changifying
mircea_popescu: sina ok so, paste the commands again if you will ? i'm logged.
sina: mircea_popescu: ssh root@45.77.66.53 in two windows, one 'gossipd'. other 'gossipc --send-message --source whoever --message whatever' and then 'gossipc -g' to view msgs
mircea_popescu: 2017-07-08 00:06:57|delivered_by:self|sender:urmom|ugachuga
mircea_popescu: 2017-07-08 00:06:58|delivered_by:sina|sender:sinatron|hello worl
mircea_popescu: this has all the makings of cool!
sina: bam!
phf: now we also are cypherpunks!
sina: as you can see in the gossipc stdout, it's all RSA, stateless whatever style
mircea_popescu: win
sina: anyway, if youre happy with that generally as a "first draft" I am keen to refine incrementally
mircea_popescu: i would say i'm quite happy, actually. as far as the user end is concerned this could work just fine.
mircea_popescu: term coloring scheme and you're home.
sina: but again, disclaimer, am not doing this to infiltrate tmsr with shitlang, as asciilifeform seems concerned, just for my own fun!
mircea_popescu: cutting the "irc client" out of the loop altogether, which is a definite plus.
asciilifeform: aside from the triviality of deriving the privkey remotely..
sina: if you like it too, that makes me happy
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yeah, the back end needs work. the frontend tho, actually passes.
sina: asciilifeform: it is designed to easily rip/replace the RSA and other componenty bits easily
sina: and once all components are happy, can be rewrote in a not shitlang
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i also dun see why not irc-driven. protocol fits on index card, and no need to write it again with shoestring and dead squirrel
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform because terminal uber alles.
asciilifeform: my irc lives in terminal
asciilifeform: and logs, tabcompletes, etc
asciilifeform: all of this is necessary .
mircea_popescu: so you don't have a proper irc client then. see ? i said irc CLIENT. protocol can stay, i see no prob there
mircea_popescu: !~google mirc
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: mIRC : Internet Relay Chat client: <http://www.mirc.com/>; mIRC - Wikipedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIRC>; mIRC - Free download and software reviews - CNET Download.com: <http://download.cnet.com/mIRC/3000-2150_4-10001733.html>
asciilifeform: winblows lol
sina: asciilifeform: I do like that idea
sina: here's why
sina: in the gossipthing I made, the transport layer is tied to the encryption layer
sina: although it could be decoupled somewhat
sina: in irctron, you can login to a remote node and keep your privkey operations local
sina: as it currently sits with deedbot, I currently don't, but can, run my irc connection on compartmented box away from gpg
asciilifeform: sina: no remote traffic via irc contemplated at any point in the gossipd threads
phf: i suspect the thinking is that you'll be running a local instance of gossipd, to which you connect over irc, so its main interface is some subset of irc (kind of how bouncers or bitlbee do it)
asciilifeform: only as local loop
asciilifeform: phf has it
sina: that is also good
sina: ok, thanks for validating mircea_popescu, tearing down the shithost
asciilifeform: sina: the reason why i am not particularly hot&bothered, is that your prototype does not contain any of the parts that comprise 99+% of the necessary work of an adult gossipd
sina: yes and it's understood, I'm not trying to make "gossipd for alfs dystopian future" just have some fun for me
asciilifeform: future lol
sina: btw asciilifeform thanks for checking out guix, I thought you might be interested after reading old logs of you complaining re ripping dbus out of emacs
asciilifeform: sina: you might be aware, i run a public box that displays a couplea newly-broken rsa keys ~daily
asciilifeform: all of the, had one thing in common
sina: I am
asciilifeform: i.e. made by folx who 'eh what do i care about alfs dystopian futures' etc
sina: yeah but I am not making this software and saying you sould use it for serious, or even any, thing
asciilifeform: out of curiosity, why didja make it
asciilifeform: vs something else
sina: saw spec on trilema, seemed interesting, why not
sina: same for mpfhf
sina: most "something elses" don't meet my "seemed interesting" criteria
asciilifeform: sina: what are some somethingelses that met it in the past
asciilifeform: ?
sina: asciilifeform: feel free to check out my github :P
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform here's the fact of the matter : if you had the drop-in rsa ready, he'd drop it in right now.
mircea_popescu: sina go make a drop-in flatfile db replacement, so people can drop it in right now. there's a market, such as people who aren't happy mp-wp pulls in mysql.
sina: it will be done!
mircea_popescu: do it in v so eg ben_vulpes can just merge it in.
mircea_popescu: and by now you're far far beyond "doing things for fun an' to learn" toylulz.
phf: sina: i actually checked, and fwiw guix doesn't let you build emacs without dbus dependency. (in fact none of the odds and ends like svg, xml or alsa can be disabled without patching the package definition file)
sina: phf: bam
mircea_popescu: do we have a plain and rather complete statement, specific to dbus in teh logs ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: dropping it into a pyturd gives 0 useful result -- becomes nonconstanttime , potentially
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i dunno why you read a language in his scribblings, it really is just pseudocode.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: dbus is a poetteringism
mircea_popescu: you think mpfhf was in php ?
phf: in fact only two ports systems i know that will do it out of the box is gentoo's one and homebrew
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i was looking more for a redo of phf 's very fine "xorg" speech.
asciilifeform: aah. dun think we have an all-in-one yet
sina: mircea_popescu: re pseudocode is exactly how I view it
sina: bang it out, see if it sucks or not
mircea_popescu: it's apparent.
sina: I don't want to carve the stone first time
sina: anyhooz, gentlemanz, off for some dumplings
sina: shall return
mircea_popescu: if the dood bangs out tmsr-db within the next coupla weeks, which fwis isn't exactly inconceivable, is anyone interesrted in making mp-wp switch from mysql/etc to it ?
sina: ME
mircea_popescu: aok
asciilifeform doesn't particularly need a db in overflowlang or gcpauselang for anything. but perhaps somebody else does...
mircea_popescu: what's wrong with c ?
asciilifeform: y'mean overflowlang
mircea_popescu: sina write it in ada, that'll really put a bee in his bonnet.
asciilifeform: danglingpointerlang
sina: trolling asciilifeform best done in lang like javascript
mircea_popescu: nah. ada.
asciilifeform: sina: trolling asciilifeform is actually pretty hard
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform trolls don't care about how you feel, alfie. just how you sound.
asciilifeform: i suppose
mircea_popescu: trolling is always a 3rd party oriented performing art. you know, like porn.
mircea_popescu: kin da why it offends the same people.
sina: out forreal!
asciilifeform: re db, imho general-purpose db (i.e. the kind that has query language) is a fundamentally misconceived idea. but we had this thread.
asciilifeform: ( it adds a screamingly unwarranted runtime and nonfitsinhead complexity to just about any proggy )
mircea_popescu: i am deliberately toying with this gordian knot.
mircea_popescu: "oh, but a db for each program will be unmaintainable" "good luck maintaining the feature lists of shared item then" etc
asciilifeform: 'general purpose db' is the original 'dwim ai' nonsense, that imho was carried along to date on sheer laziness of programmers
asciilifeform: 'omfg you mean i actually have to understand the mechanics of the problem, and craft an appropriate data structure !? atrocity! gimme sql'
mircea_popescu: even as a prototyping item.
mircea_popescu: "i don;t understant the mechanisms YET, give me a worktable. with clearly known knobsw on it."
asciilifeform: sorta goes upstack, even. ease of prototyping has a cost.
mircea_popescu: all your fg pics include a mysql implementation.
asciilifeform: in that prototypes (e.g. bitcoin...) often end up used in battlefield
mircea_popescu: its' the white shit in the background.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: waiwat
mircea_popescu: yes. that plastic bit with holes.
asciilifeform: idungetit
mircea_popescu: you don't ship fg with it, and so don't ship other things with it either.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if you actually want to get it i'll formalize ?
asciilifeform: yesplz
mircea_popescu: a breadboard is, for electronic circuitry, exactly what a general purpose db is for programming.
mircea_popescu: it allows you support to set out all your shit and connect it as you want, and measure and decide how to package it.
mircea_popescu: could be done in your hand, or else in your pants pocket while riding the subway. it'd be harder is all.
mircea_popescu: it is sometimes practiced, and sometimes accepted, to ship circuits back and forth straight on their breadboard. this is entirely up to the people involved and not proper subject of legislation.
mircea_popescu: but yes, it is quite unseemly.
asciilifeform: breadboard aite
asciilifeform: but imho a field where critical battlefield machinery turns out to routinely contain breadboard - has a problem.
mircea_popescu: no argument there. but also -- an aesthetical discussion of breadboards will never result in their banishment from the workshop wtf.
asciilifeform: i learned of the consequences of the sin, in the most painful way, by committing it.
mircea_popescu: try doing any work without one for a laugh.
mircea_popescu also, as young tyke, thought "wtf breadboard, useless shit takes more time to set up than it's worth new". then touched 120V a coupla times and grew wiser.
asciilifeform: i suspect that the culprit is cheap cpu cycles. in msdos age, ~every proggy read/wrote wholly custom datastructures from/to disk
asciilifeform: no 'db lib' for the most part, was inconceivable waste
mircea_popescu: and in even earlier days -- most pessimum.
mircea_popescu: optimizing compiler also inconceivable waste, mel didn't like its data positioning.
asciilifeform: if an optimizing compiler is possible for your machine or lang, one, the other, or likely both, are broken.
mircea_popescu: old meaning of the term, not modern.
asciilifeform: ( see also my old http://www.loper-os.org/?p=46 )
asciilifeform: is mel is the fella from the old poem, who 'we buried him face down, nine-edge first' ?
mircea_popescu: !~google ROAR lgp-30
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: LGP - 30 - Wikipedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGP-30>; LGP - 30 - Ed Thelen's Nike Missile Web Site: <http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/lgp-30.html>; Librascope LGP - 30 - CHM Revolution - Computer History Museum: <http://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/early-computer-companies/5/116>
phf: asciilifeform: the story of mel?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the guy with the drum.
asciilifeform: phf: is the only one i know of, yes
mircea_popescu: i suppose it's actually my bad, they called it optimizing assembler back then for some reason.
asciilifeform: recall http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-21#1673190 ?
a111: Logged on 2017-06-21 17:05 asciilifeform: doing FIVE ( yes, it's five ) machine muls, in there, and 5 machine adds ( instead of motherfucking ZERO ) JUST TO GET THE UPPER WORD of word*word mul, is not.
mircea_popescu: aha?
asciilifeform: compilers for braindamaged archs ( i.e. all extant archs ) are rather 'socialism' flavoured, in that you're stuck forcing 'unprincipled exceptions' (inline asm) if you want to use anything close to the iron's full capacity
mircea_popescu: back in msdos days it was int21 and etc for ... video iron's full capacity.
asciilifeform: y'mean ~not~ int21
asciilifeform: but rather direct writes
mircea_popescu: i guess i do lol
mircea_popescu: point being!
asciilifeform: point being that there is an element of implicit lie, in the concept of the compiler.
mircea_popescu: and in the concept of computer.
asciilifeform: the urbit thing was a cartoon-coloured extreme illustration of this.
mircea_popescu: ha! it was at that.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is possible to form a realistic mental model, of computer per se. but far less so of 'optimizing' claptrap.
mircea_popescu: guy is kinda predictable, his previous codebase was a cartoon-colored illustration of the impossibility of autodidacticism
asciilifeform: waitasec, what previous codebase
mircea_popescu: what was it called, the blog thing
asciilifeform: aah ah
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the only mental model of computer per se would be "girlfriend".
asciilifeform assumed 'code base' meant something mechanised
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and it was not ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the only accurate , useful model, is 'player piano'
asciilifeform: not gurl wtfomfg
mircea_popescu: ask around. decide(); and void think void etc, the writing's on the wall.
asciilifeform: unless mircea_popescu has a very odd, martian meat comp
asciilifeform: which reminds me... brb
mircea_popescu: it is this thing which talks back to you. === girlfriend, are you kidding me ?
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> 2017-07-08 00:06:57|delivered_by:self|sender:urmom|ugachuga << lel @ this message, and it seems to work!
mircea_popescu: so it does!
mircea_popescu: the amusing part not yet picked up (i was expecting alf to jump) is that... it has inband encoding. "self" is a special word!
mircea_popescu: wut do ?
mod6: ah hmm.
phf: pretty sure asciilifeform is actively ignoring the whole initiative, with only periodic pounces. as opposed to his older strategy of annihilating the whole thing upfront. must be getting old
mircea_popescu: you have a theory as to why ?
phf: i think that it's mostly your works. his patterns are better known, there's been damping, etc.
mircea_popescu: wait, what ? i dunno what you just said
phf: well
mircea_popescu: are you saying he switched from trying to annihilate it to being unhappy with it because it has managed to gather some apparent support with me ?
phf: no, it's more like alfs rhetoric approach at some point was encouraged, where's now it seems to be recognized, and often treated with "oh it's just alf doing his thing".
mircea_popescu: hm.
phf: or perhaps now that he has successfully served as the main driving force behind the tenets of tmsr technology and ensured that they are collectively accepted, he doesn't need to reaffirm them as much. but i also have wonder if the tenets have as much of a galvanizing effect now that we mostly had a chance to observe both their positive and negative effects?
phf: *have to wonder
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/517E17312D55D1916D36F9CEF9C8022B875B9FEDEC8FA3F5175C8C4F676AC894 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1762...2773 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '58.215.78.96 (ssh-rsa key from 58.215.78.96 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown CN 32)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/517E17312D55D1916D36F9CEF9C8022B875B9FEDEC8FA3F5175C8C4F676AC894 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1379...3483 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '58.215.78.96 (ssh-rsa key from 58.215.78.96 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown CN 32)
mod6: in this case, even the sina has said so himself, is a simple prototype. i find prototypes to be typically worth making. often there is something to be learned from them.
mircea_popescu: im not sure which these tenets be
mod6: with btc, even if "prototype" was imho worth using in the battlefield. "you go to war with the army you have..." doesn't mean either that it can't be made better or replaced later.
mircea_popescu: phf for my curiosiuty, list tenets and positive/negative effects ?
phf: that's a tricky request, but the tenets are around shitlangs differentiation, "fits in head", v as a way of releasing code, what it means to own a piece of technology. there's a handful of threads that had definitive conclusions, that i consider tenets (i think the word should be in quotes to indicate that while not true tenets, violating them will require reopening large threads)
mircea_popescu: yeah, whole line sounds a lot like baiting, but not at all my intention.
mircea_popescu: just, work happens when prodded, and systematization is work like any other work.
phf: ah, so it's a subtle "what tenets would that be? handy if you made a LIST of them here, eh!"
mircea_popescu: not even so subtle, but sure.
mircea_popescu: certainly above qs could have been asked just as well by a noob, and vague "large threads" reference dun help him any.
phf: right, which is an existing problem
mircea_popescu: and in other news, the logs stay about the same 500 lines they always are, but holy shit it seems somehow they get denser or what the fuck, it's unseemly.
mircea_popescu: feels like headlifting three times the weight these days
mircea_popescu: maybe it's just getting old.
mod6: i think it's highly interesting, but indeed, there's a lot of depth. sometimes takes a while to grok the threads. that's my own personal take. getting old, not for me anyway.
mircea_popescu: mod6 i used to enjoy the luxury of multipass reads through the log. but it's under threat these days
sina: I return, temporarily
mircea_popescu: as opposed to what, death ?
sina: phf: :D
sina: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-05#1679215
a111: Logged on 2017-07-05 15:39 phf: sina: is that ^ a correct method?
sina: did you make a lispy one go faster?
sina: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680437 << why I used a db: because the spec said use flatfile, I first tried to implement flatfile one and after realising I would need to either shell out to utilities like "touch" and/or "find"/"ls" etc, or implement some of their functionality myself, I decided to import a library that does that stuff not terribly, called sqlite
a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 00:38 asciilifeform: ( it adds a screamingly unwarranted runtime and nonfitsinhead complexity to just about any proggy )
mircea_popescu: sqlite seems to be the go-to around here.
sina: otherwise, how update functionality like "last seen", or "fetch X messages since last seen"
sina: and now if I want to do it in flatfile, gossipd code becomes gossipd + "sinas shitty db-less attempt"
mircea_popescu: well you were looking for things to try.
mircea_popescu: i don't know it has to be shitty, unless there's some other constraint, like "make it overnight"
sina: imagine flatfile example of "assigning" generated key from "available" => "user" state, or "user" => "bogus" state, that's moving a keyfile from gossipd/keys/available to gossipd/keys/users/foo or similar action, now my program has to either invoke "mv" or write mv-like functionality into my app
mod6: mircea_popescu: re, logs, inline-pr0n helps too :D
mircea_popescu: sina i don't get it ? make file with keys, make file with assignments. why mv ?
sina: ok true, I didn't think of that
mircea_popescu: this idea working as intended then.
mircea_popescu: mod6 word eh. lessee what leggy we can fish out
mod6: yay!
sina: mircea_popescu: but still even in that case I need to "walk" the list of assignments, looking for ^available, so I need to use grep or write a iterating-finder-thingo myself and then something like sed to change the line or write a text-changer-at-a-line myself
mircea_popescu: in today's "bro, does she even lift?!?", http://68.media.tumblr.com/07cb6203aad968e0f035cacb3a1d5fa9/tumblr_mizikdktI41s4ukh7o3_1280.jpg
mircea_popescu: sina or just you know, look into how to do btree and have a hash something ?
sina: wat
mod6: lmao @pic
mircea_popescu: sina you can implement your whatever as a binary tree, leverage the directory structure, and simply check if there's a file / write it.
mircea_popescu: this locks into an older discvussion re bitcoin fs, which was iirc still stalled at perf-ing the various available fs thoroughly for massive directory/file usage.
mircea_popescu: and speaking of locks, http://68.media.tumblr.com/47ddf0e0d49eaf4cdafb9e5af8e0287b/tumblr_oo02vdxVUK1rat4opo2_500.gif
sina: how does that related at all to the "make file with keys"
sina: although I don't get that either now that I think about it, how does the "assignments" file know which key is which?
sina: line numbers?
mod6: mircea_popescu: daang.
sina: assignments file format = ??
sina: mircea_popescu: I guess the gist of the question is really, how is implementing my own btree different at all to using the pretty much identical thing in sqlite
mod6: i gotta look at this code again here
mircea_popescu: well, for you in that you get to say you did it (ie, have the experience), and for alf that he's not stuck importing ALL THE REST of sqlite.
sina: and you contend the actual final implementation of such a thing will actually be less lines of a code than the existing thing
mircea_popescu: sina simple example and i don't pretend like this is useful : /assignments/0f0a.txt contains or does not contain "hurrdurr". by checking if it does you know hurrdurr is assigned to 0f0a.
mircea_popescu: sina does sqlite have unicode support ? if it does, then it will necessarily be less lines of code.
sina: always lol
sina: I mean, all data is unicode AFAIK
sina: except binary ofc
mircea_popescu: right. well, here all data is ascii.
mircea_popescu: mod6 there's a part two of our show : http://68.media.tumblr.com/949f80bdc5e21cf0d317e4f5b5a3b369/tumblr_oo02vdxVUK1rat4opo1_500.gif
mod6: nice!
sina: ok going out again, will consider some more, but I do wonder
mircea_popescu: not like you HAVE TO. twas a suggestion.
mod6: sina: sure, think on it for a bit. no rush.
mircea_popescu: and in other real dollies, http://68.media.tumblr.com/a72431bb9683fd3181791b292e410b95/tumblr_oqv0v1DHGW1sd72xuo1_1280.jpg
mod6: looks like was taken on a proper ny roof
mircea_popescu: nah, russian ho. "gizel"
mod6: ah
mod6: im ~starting~ to get the hang of this ada stuff.
mod6: as a way to teach it to myself, i've been poking around with a v impl.
mod6: not sure it'll ever see the light of day tho.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> sina: trolling asciilifeform is actually pretty hard << Then why are the neighborhood's small mammals so successful with their verminating?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680511 << partly it is that i'd like to do a fair share of keeping the snr high, by... ~not having same thread 9000 times~, see if perhaps the l0gz will do their bit and answer ' what does asciilifeform say to X ? ' q for those folx who have it
a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 01:13 phf: pretty sure asciilifeform is actively ignoring the whole initiative, with only periodic pounces. as opposed to his older strategy of annihilating the whole thing upfront. must be getting old
asciilifeform: and partly in that i find the 'prototype' that solves 0 of the difficult problems, simply not interesting. i can write a perlism that pushes shitrsa packets over tcp etc. in half hour. but why.
asciilifeform: ( and iirc i already explained this in agonizingly pedantic detail. but apparently the requisite lines in the l0gz are magically invisible..? or wut )
ben_vulpes: > do not use * to mark line suppression
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680517 << this is quite a bit moar 'mean gurlz' than actually in play, phf. i dun give anything like the suggested amount of fuck. the educable - learn, the rest - will learn by pissing on the electric fence personally; or, when far too late, already having 'fucked the cousin' etc.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 01:24 phf: no, it's more like alfs rhetoric approach at some point was encouraged, where's now it seems to be recognized, and often treated with "oh it's just alf doing his thing".
ben_vulpes: am i to take from this line in the od manpage that it doesn't actually output faithfully without extra flags?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform check it out, you're famous nao, being discussed in absentia.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ikr? i was having tea and saw l0gz and 'wtf'
mircea_popescu: hey, happens to the best of us.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform to pet : 'looksy here, they're meangurlzing'
mircea_popescu: no such thing!
asciilifeform: (term of art!11)
BingoBoingo: Well, alf did recommend that film to rest of republic
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680530 << i actually attempted this , a coupla yrs ago, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=284
a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 02:00 phf: ah, so it's a subtle "what tenets would that be? handy if you made a LIST of them here, eh!"
mod6: lel 'meangurlzing'
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680532 << at one time we had a fella ( pete_dushenski ? ) embark on a 'major life and times of the l0g' thing. what became of this ?
a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 02:01 mircea_popescu: certainly above qs could have been asked just as well by a noob, and vague "large threads" reference dun help him any.
ben_vulpes: hodang hexdump does this as well
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680538 << there are times when i spend a whole day only reading the l0gz...
a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 02:07 mircea_popescu: mod6 i used to enjoy the luxury of multipass reads through the log. but it's under threat these days
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: hexdump -v -C
asciilifeform: ( switches off the retardation )
mod6: yeah, i try never to get more than 1 day behind. and sometimes, i take long walks through the l0gs on various threads.
asciilifeform: mod6: i was speaking of vintage logs, rather than backlog
mod6: ah, yeah, the "long walk"
mircea_popescu: !!up ave1
deedbot: ave1 voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: i'll go ' this one time mircea_popescu and asciilifeform had mega-dispute about planar tilings, where was it... or did i dream it ' and 6 hrs later..
mod6: oh yeah, those are the hardest to track down. i find myself having to search for very specific words and hope i find it.
mod6: sometimes its a tmsr-ism like 'printolade'
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: yeah, found the flag at about the same time i discovered the idiocy
ben_vulpes: "flag for disabling wtf, would you like?"
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: gotta love these
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: you could write an entire mega-essay re subj, they are legion
asciilifeform: ( and again, but WHERE were the others..! )
ben_vulpes: right?
asciilifeform: somewhere, deep in the l0gz.
asciilifeform: iirc it was pete_dushenski who compared to talmud.
asciilifeform: i went and got hold of an actual talmud, to compare.
ben_vulpes: basically unsafe to use unix tools without reading manpages exhaustively, and probably source to boot
mod6: and as far as pete_dushenski or whomevers quest to write a log digest or whatever, it never happened. the foundation briefly considered a role for gathering up trb related parts, but that was set aside in exchange for tb0t
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: talmud likely five hundred years to early of a comparison
asciilifeform: notrly
asciilifeform: shares some of the very same sharp edges
asciilifeform: ( ~wholly unsorted and highly self-referential item )
asciilifeform: mod6: aha, didn't think so
asciilifeform: iirc everyone who offered to do the job, found that it was far 'more than could chew'
asciilifeform: ( or less than his muscle could lift, take your pick )
ben_vulpes: relatedly, i started rereading the old testament on "kindle" this year, have been missing proper talmud for whole sojurn
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: there's an ipnoje version etc.
ben_vulpes: epub?
asciilifeform: no, thing with concordance, search, multi-lang thing, etc
asciilifeform: iirc there are ports to various pocket comp
ben_vulpes: i did discover epub-scale sheikh pdfs recently
asciilifeform not dedicated aficionado, ben_vulpes will have to dig for himself
ben_vulpes: mm
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform hey, the history of roman empire was attempted 500x, why should one fellow stop the rest.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: https://www.sefaria.org
ben_vulpes: sikh*
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: ( dare i presume that you want the englisch )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: tru!!
ben_vulpes: a reasonable daring, my patience for aramaic went the way of my patience for kanji etc
mircea_popescu: mod6 problem with the very specific words is that often enough conversations are carried in wholly metaphorical terms.
ben_vulpes: i have other exciting glyph monstrosities occupying my stack these days like unicode
mircea_popescu: such as, we';re discussing cunts, but oohohohohobviously not rly.
mod6: for sure.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680565 << it stalled at the discovery that 1) performance is abysmal 2) for wholly fundamental reasons ( of shit-poor rewritable data structures forced by 'generic fs' shape ) 3) all extant fs would have to be patched regardless to remove idiot node caps, and may as well write proper db from scratch that is bitcoin-shaped 5) asciilifeform then wrote the latter, in ada, and put on shelf, to pick up a
a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 02:31 mircea_popescu: this locks into an older discvussion re bitcoin fs, which was iirc still stalled at perf-ing the various available fs thoroughly for massive directory/file usage.
asciilifeform: fter rsa
asciilifeform: ( related lullies : http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-08#1640488 )
a111: Logged on 2017-04-08 17:13 Framedragger: do you recall when you described the storage of nqb?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i still didn't get what i'd call good numbers / a good measurement.
asciilifeform: ^ where powerrangers immediately took what they could find in the l0gz and tried to use, like the savage finds the flashlight
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-15#1627811 << mine or the classic fsen ?
a111: Logged on 2017-03-15 23:46 asciilifeform: in unrelated noose, 'nqb' reads & parses a full 1MB block, with 2218 tx, and recreates it from fast-form, again to disk, in 0.123 sec. on a 3GHz opteron cum ssd.
asciilifeform: ( http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-20#1629439 << yet other thread re subj. )
a111: Logged on 2017-03-20 17:00 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-20#1629256 << even reiser is almost certainly waste of time, general-purpose fs is very sharply the opposite of what we want, they are all optimized for mutability (can delete/rename/resize/etc) and fast reads at the expense of slow entity creation, as well as carrying out silent rebalances/defrags/etc.
asciilifeform: reiser is afaik the undisputed champ, if somebody still wants to experiment with classical fs.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the classic fsen.
asciilifeform: i'm already on record as having described, in agonizing detail, why it is a monumental waste of time, but if mircea_popescu et al not convinced -- welcome to 'piss on electric fence'
mircea_popescu: there's nothing wrong with measuring the world around. an attempt to explain why this is a waste of time isn't really going to be entertained.
mircea_popescu: it is fundamentally, and irrecoverably, flawed. measurements are the only basis of thought.
mircea_popescu: and they will be redone forever.
asciilifeform: imho best use of measurement, is to measure unknowns. rather than to try to determine, with ruler, how many degrees a triangle's internals add up to.
mircea_popescu: this is not so.
mircea_popescu: there's no "best use of measurement" for exact same reason there's no "wot best practices", or "ideal rng values"
asciilifeform: there is the use of time, of which king and slave alike has finite qty. but i can only suggest to folx, how to use it. if they want to build perpetuum mobile to 'measure whether possible' -- or trisect angle -- let'em
asciilifeform: imho some of the greatest discoveries were precisely of the 'this is a dead end, don't burn your life on this' type.
mircea_popescu: geting hard numbers on file system performance, something everyone involved in data storage for the past 30 years has been vehehehery deliberately hiding, is certainly better use of time than, for instance, attempting to reason with djb jzw & all.
asciilifeform: i suspect that fellating hogs is better use of time than speaking to djb et al
mircea_popescu: be that as it may.
asciilifeform: incidentally i regularly go looking for 'performance numbers' for various , and it is very frustrating, largely from the ~total nonexistence of anything like standardized hardware setup
mircea_popescu: or for that matter anything like actual measurements.
asciilifeform: i.e. when asciilifeform measures his $proggy runs, he is measuring at the same time a possibly unreproducible combo of ssd+ram+cpu+...
asciilifeform: in the days of, e.g., commodore64, with 100 mil people having SAME pcb, within 5% tolerance of crystals -- time measurements were immediately meaningful.
mircea_popescu: aha
asciilifeform: FG is manufactured, incidentally, to this tolerance
asciilifeform: but today when asciilifeform goes and , e.g., http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-19#1659220 , the measurement is only useful standing next to similar from same box
a111: Logged on 2017-05-19 17:22 asciilifeform: in other news, a 4096-bit A**B takes approx 14 seconds (3GHz) .
mircea_popescu: myeah. particularly "ghz" means jack
asciilifeform: ( for instance, i go and run on a crapple , with slower clock but larger l1, and get 1/7th the interval spent )
asciilifeform: aha!
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680575 << ffa is graphical demonstration that this is so
a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 02:35 sina: and you contend the actual final implementation of such a thing will actually be less lines of a code than the existing thing
asciilifeform: and not only 'fewer lines' but 0 of overflowlang
asciilifeform: and 0 pointers
asciilifeform: etc.
asciilifeform: i just counted gpg 1.4.10 : 156,436 loc -- and that ain't counting the autoconf liquishit, or the libs it pulls in
asciilifeform: 'p' currently is ~2.5k of ada. and getting thinner.
asciilifeform: ( when thin enough -- released. even if a little slow. because i want folx to begin to grasp. )
asciilifeform: the sheer gap between what is extant and what is possible - is, i suspect, unfathomable to the uninitiated and the weak of heart.
asciilifeform: ( and i dun even claim a magical handle on all that is possible. for all i know, next d00d will turn my 2.5k into 250. somehow. )
asciilifeform: ( of ~non-idiomaticidiotic~ clean shaven knuthola, say, even. )

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