lobbes: asciilifeform: I mis-typed; I meant to say that *my own bot echoed* and it does not show in the log. (6 lines up from this line; from lobbesbot)
lobbes: anyways. bbl for real; sleep
lobbes: shows on vulpes' logger, for example: http://logs.bvulpes.com/trilema?d=2019-8-14#478738
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-13 22:50:21 asciilifeform: lobbes: it wouldn't astonish me if turns out that some particular combo of uniturds -- breaks py's uniturdism eater
asciilifeform: so, evidently py's uniturd eater is broken, and needs pre-massage if it is to become properly omnivorous
asciilifeform: observe, incidentally, that this did not drop the bot.
asciilifeform: still gotta be worked around somehow.
asciilifeform: bot oughta log anyffin whatsoever that could possibly go in the wire.
asciilifeform: if i don't find a mechanical method of somehow 'dwim'ing out the intended orcograms, i'ma have the bot replace'em with hammer-an'-sickle . unless someone has better idea.
asciilifeform: ( is there a standard 'this is a dud orcogram' glyph ?? )
asciilifeform: phf's bot, incidentally, ate. now would be a notbad time for the fella to come the hell out of his coma and say how.
asciilifeform: (i suspect answer lies deep in the CL libs that he used tho, and not necessarily in head.)
asciilifeform: quite arguably any proggy that uses heathen libs -- and pointedly includes my logger -- is pressed sawdust, worx until you hit whatever speshulcase the speshulchildren didn't think 'is possible'
asciilifeform: hey ben_vulpes, wanna come out of coma and say how you ate arbitrary unibarf ?
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, looks like windowscode apostrophe, not unicode per se.
mp_en_viaje: this was discussed numerously, asdf has auto-magics to distinguish the various encodings.
mp_en_viaje: BingoBoingo, right, they're going to "alt-pay", which is a speshul argentina thing, and it totally isn't not-pay, it's pay. because they say, and if they say then fucking totally.
mp_en_viaje: fucktard. who THE FUCK is gonna give them rice for 20 years ? what "50% de nuestro sueldo" ? what the fuck nuestro, no hay nada que es argentino. 100% of everythng, and now.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: utf16?!
mp_en_viaje: just fucking kill anything on the ground in argentina now and start over.
mp_en_viaje: aka ’
mp_en_viaje: The characters 128-159 are not used in ISO 8859-1 and Unicode, the character sets of HTML. MS-Windows uses a superset of ANSI/ISO 8859-1, known to experts as "Code Page 1252 (CP1252)", a Microsoft-specific character set with additional characters in the 128-159 range (also known as the "C1" range).
mp_en_viaje: All the CP1252 characters are also available in Unicode. For example the CP1252 character 146 that you mentioned (RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK) has the Unicode number 8217, therefore you should use this number in order to conform to the HTML standard. Modern HTML browsers like Netscape 4.0 understand Unicode, and will automatically convert the Unicode character ’ back into the character 146 on MS-Windows machines, and into the appropriate ch
mp_en_viaje: aracter on other systems.
mp_en_viaje: The official CP1252<->Unicode conversion table is printed in the Unicode 2.0 standard for instance, and is available on <ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/pub/doc/ISO/charsets/> in the file ucs-map-cp1252. [See also the file ftp://ftp.unicode.org/Public/MAPPINGS/VENDORS/MICSFT/WINDOWS/CP1252.TXT at the official Unicode site.]
mp_en_viaje: MS-Windows HTML-authoring software definitely should implement the conversion table below! Please forward this mail to the developers of your HTML authoring tool if this is currently done wrong.
asciilifeform will walk lobbes 's uniturds hexdump tomorrow, after sleep, its 0130 here
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-13#1928274 << i expect this is not even wrong ; apache exists to spit out filesystem to port 80 ; was then extended to spit out cgi and eventually mod php, but same principle.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-13 13:55:23 asciilifeform: i'm beginning to suspect that nginx, apache, etc. are intrinsically dead weight, when sat in front of a programmatic html shitter
mp_en_viaje: if you're not spitting out the filesystem, and don't need apache to run the infrastructure of whatever scripting language for you (ie, use python's native interpreter, or cl, bash w/e, rather than php) then you don't, strictly speaking, need it.
mp_en_viaje: otoh, apache is to my knowledge the only case of linux userland with useful threading implemented, debugged, and working. may be cheaper to piggyback on that subsystem than implement own threads, esp on the batshit insane anti-useful toybox that is linux.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: ostensibly was supposed to impedance-match, buffer, filter ddosistic shenanigans, etc. but turns out -- double-edged
mp_en_viaje: in general, fwis, it's ~always much better to do the "use apache for threading and fs-as-cache" model than anything else. but then again i'm not the hacker, don't let me keep you from your destiny.
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, this "filter ddos" thing is pipe dream. either you got outside box to do it, or you're nto doing.
mp_en_viaje: "box is not doing, routerallah is doing", how shall i put this. there's no way to prevent a stampede as the guy being stampeded, it should be self-obvious
asciilifeform: the front-ends promise much, but deliver, afaik, mainly that extra sec of stall..
asciilifeform: ( and gigatonne of config liquishit to eat )
mp_en_viaje: nfi what you mean by "impedance mathc" either, it's an unusefully high level concept for this convo. if fs-is-my-cache and apache-workers items as they exist match your impedance, then yes it does. if they do not, then no it does not.
mp_en_viaje: but yes, this is the problem -- until and unless one ends up understanding how apache config works, one will not like it.
mp_en_viaje: (contrary to what naive nugget might be imagining, implementing threading on linux is not trivial ; and not even necessarily replicable by now.)
asciilifeform: depends what mean 'implement threading'
asciilifeform: e.g. 'M' implements. in asm.
mp_en_viaje: in this context, a working equivalent to apache's workers.
mp_en_viaje: well so then use that, what.
asciilifeform: the sim-periphs all get thrd etc
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: may well be doomed to write www serv before this is over.
mp_en_viaje: it's roughly your personal implementation of "getting a sepsis"
mp_en_viaje: in your case it'd be of the brain. wtf is wrong with you!
asciilifeform: proggy -- is published. if no one sheds light on e.g. how to banish the spurious delay, will have to approach the q with whatever method i know of ( or live with it )
asciilifeform: ditto unitardations etc
mp_en_viaje: you're approximately the equivalent of that one guy nobody heard of from the manhattan project who decided early on to re-design cars because his window crane nubbin kept falling off. "dude, they already have cars" "yes but they're not right" "we're doing something ELSE here!" "i can't get there, my car's window's nubbin keeps falling off"
asciilifeform: i don't presently know why mp_en_viaje makes special pleading for apache et al to exempt'em from 'software is univerally shite'
mp_en_viaje: symbolics never in ~its entire life~... actually fucking strike that. all of mit cs lab, ALL OF IT, from csail onwards, never had a tenth of the fucking engineering man-hours that went into turning a patchy server into apache.
mp_en_viaje: you're proposing to re-do all that to shave a second offa some webapp you misconfigured somewhere ? gimme a break, put 1/1000000 that much time into talking to internet randos about pizarro, get 1000000x the benefits.
asciilifeform: i suspect at this pt apache absorbed moar hrs than pyramid of cheops. and will welcome proof of 'yer hands grow out of arse, turn this-here knob and the 6s will become 0.2'.
mp_en_viaje: we're seriously talking some heavy duty 1e12 orders of dampening magnitude here, how to take a trillion and make a tenth of a cent
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, it's right there, comparable with fucking space race and yes, pyramid.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: if yer happy to live with 'teletype' i'ma entirely happily leave it entirely alone
mp_en_viaje: where the fuck is the dozen people six months original discussion anyway
asciilifeform: ( i'd rather paint grass green, if have any say, than to continue fiddling the knobs )
mp_en_viaje: so then do something else.
asciilifeform: lobbes's hieroglyphs barf oughta be handled. after that would like to leave the logger to other folx to patch, at least for nao.
mp_en_viaje spent the night up until ~now drinking with "psycho dolls", polish item, these chicks that do fireworks and stuff. girls picked them up right off street days ago.
mp_en_viaje: you have a much better chance of spending your night drinking with washington equivalent, local psycho dolls, through walking the street of wash dc randomly talking to people,
mp_en_viaje: than of producing "improved apache" through hacking on linuxbox
mp_en_viaje: and this even bearing in mind no such thing locally exists in the first place.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: i have no desire for 'improved apache', any more than for 'improved ms vb'
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, ok so then, what's the problem with the obvious course : test some static html files, see if it has same problem, implement cache as discussed yest when time permits and be done with it.
asciilifeform: tested, found same.
mp_en_viaje: no ?!
mp_en_viaje: you never mentioned this ? did i miss some log parts ?
asciilifeform: cache will do 0, the actual page gen in 'heavy' sample on py end takes 0.070s !
asciilifeform: rest -- transmission.
mp_en_viaje: did you actually look at some plain .html files being loaded ?
asciilifeform: aha. and bins. try the db dump, same 'burst' pattern
mp_en_viaje: and then you still http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-13#1928268 ?!
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-13 13:33:53 asciilifeform: so i still suspect it aint the pipe ( diana_coman lives at piz )
asciilifeform: so far uncertain whether pipe or nginx is culprit.
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-13#1928285 << in other keks, had to look up wtf this "consumo masivo" is supposed to be. ran into typically argentine socialist-fuckarded nonsense before realising it's how these "Los productos de consumo masivo se definen como productos de alta demanda. Son aquellos productos requeridos por todos los estratos de la socied
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-13 15:10:34 BingoBoingo: Las empresas de consumo masivo aumentan sus precios hasta 15% y el Gobierno evalúa qué hacer con "Precios Esenciales" << Headline across the river
asciilifeform: pipe -- routinely gives sustained mb+/s, to my chair. but never before looked into what happens in 1st sec.
mp_en_viaje: no fucking inkiling of an idea in their ferrous craniums that the ~moving~ is the point, nfi what overheads are, yakyakywak about "nos todos" and "social class" and whatever nonsense.
mp_en_viaje: god lov'em, cuz i sure as fuck don't.
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, yes but QoS and all that, port 80 is differently treated by routers, you're aware of this
asciilifeform: aha! hence my 'i have nfi what is going on'
mp_en_viaje: so do you have nginx configured as reverse proxy or why does it keep getting mentioned ?
asciilifeform: reverse proxy
asciilifeform: with no frills
mp_en_viaje: so turn off, see what that does ?
mp_en_viaje: ill say ftr what while ~decade ago this was actually standard deployment, i've not been bothered to have it for a long time now
asciilifeform: and reach the py proggy's port how ?
mp_en_viaje: wait, you got no apache running ?
asciilifeform: nope. straight nginx
mp_en_viaje: could just do port forwarding i guess.
mp_en_viaje: then again nginx should be doing that.
asciilifeform: it is. sole purpose of its life on the box, in fact , to send phuctor subdomain to 1 port, snsashop to other, now log -- to yet 3rd
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, you know, you can prolly get flask bind to 80 ?
mp_en_viaje: or you using multiple flasks for each of these
asciilifeform: only if run as root, which ugh
asciilifeform: and yes multiple
asciilifeform: as separate users
mp_en_viaje: so you have like 3 flask servers going ?
asciilifeform: well 2 atm, snsa shop currently points to static 'sold out' pg.
mp_en_viaje: fucking circus ropeshow you got going there...
asciilifeform: i have 1 piz box. wouldja rathet have no logger ? or 'circus'
mp_en_viaje: also stating ftr : if /me had designed this, it'd have been one single apache server, handling directories into which various cron-run pythons vomited whatever. not even port binding, comms through fs.
mp_en_viaje: dispose with flask dependency and all that.
asciilifeform: search with what? grep ?
mp_en_viaje: you currently use postgres no ?
mp_en_viaje: search via apache-postgres
asciilifeform: wtf is that
mp_en_viaje: you know, apache has this built-in scripting language we won't name to run db queries.
asciilifeform: ok i'ma come back to this thrd when erryone sober.
mp_en_viaje: hey, you're the one juggling flasks.
asciilifeform: goodnight(morning?) mp_en_viaje
mp_en_viaje: it's like 8am yeah.
mp_en_viaje: i like how it's "oh, mp is drunk". wth did i do!
mp_en_viaje: Flask is a lightweight WSGI web application framework. It is designed to make getting started quick and easy, with the ability to scale up to complex applications. It began as a simple wrapper around Werkzeug and Jinja and has become one of the most popular Python web application frameworks." << really makes me want to be sober, reading that thing.
mp_en_viaje: who wouldn;t want simple wrappers around werkjij and zeugya.
mp_en_viaje: or wait, i got them wrong didn't i. kunstjig and zugkammer ?
mp_en_viaje: look at that, "the pellets project" (apt name if i've ever seen one) has documentation of this geficktzug or w/e it was.
asciilifeform will bbl, falling down.
mp_en_viaje: since i exhausted him, i will now bark into the ethers (until someone wakes up), in the form of the following consumer computing likbez that we can all discuss once everyone else is sober -- im having second thoughts as to whether i ever want to be sober again.
mp_en_viaje: so, the only reason linux exists, let me restate that actually : THE ONLY FUCKING REASON LINUX EXISTS is the sheer coincidence that people got the lamp stack (read : linux, apache, mysql, php) going just in time for the september that never ended fallout.
mp_en_viaje: without this, all of linux (and all of the SMALLER foss, which piggy-backs on it, and always has, and always would have and forever would have had ; and certainly all of the even smaller and insignificant if more organisedly-stupid GNU) would have forever stayed the exact equivalent of an obscure gentoo repackaging three kids maintain for purely self-actualisation & escapist reasons. [http://trilema.
mp_en_viaje: com/2014/the-perfect-pitch/][point in case example].
mp_en_viaje: i am aware various sysadmin-y folks flatter themselves that "something unixlike'd have existed anyway for our terminal&cmdline needs". this is utterly false, they'd have been clucking at GUI interfaces exactly like the medical profession / barristas everywhere, and been thankful when .jar finally rolled around.
mp_en_viaje: the 1990s "tech support" kiddo (perhaps best typified by thorne, who is a faggoty "designer" ; though i'm aware everyone'd rather it be "BOFH" or whatever similar self-wank) running grep over everyone-workking-at-the-videostore's hoemdirs never had any say or pulled any weight. toxicfact or haetfact or whatever, fact stays fact.
mp_en_viaje: now then, linux ~could have~ also been the definitive video stack, giving itself a lease on life extending past ~now. but then they fucked it all up.
snsabot: Logged on 2018-11-27 16:37:59 mircea_popescu: gnu managed to drive directx into the ground, on the strength of naive if well meaning contributors, and then managed to give the advantage back to windows, and snatch defeat from the very jaws of victory, on the strength of imbecile management.
mp_en_viaje: so, not to put too fine a point on it : i really don't give so much of a shit what peculiar buttdildos you use in your own special universe to make yourself feel "different from the rest", "poetic", "not understood" and whatever other such highschooler personal investments. the fact of the matter is, linux exists for and through and by and because apache, mysql, and the glue gluing these together : php. that's what it is, that's what it's for, th
mp_en_viaje: at's the doctrine and the standard solution and the "werkzeug"/kunstkammer of it.
mp_en_viaje: when you get a job with microsoft, you ~also~ buy the 90yo "representative" from iowa being "senior" just as you buy the add treatment for your kids and the wood frame house in vinyl siding and "black culture" and everything else.
mp_en_viaje: i don't give a shit what you tell the orcs back home, or your crying inner 6yo at night or anything else -- buy the ticket, take the ride.
mp_en_viaje: yes, there's alternatives. of course there are. you don't have to coca cola, there's also pepsi. you like postgres more than mysql, well the fuck done, use that then. it'll be still used as an M in LAMP. because that's what the damned thing is, "flexibility" my ass.
mp_en_viaje: the fucking design of ~everything~ linux is always the same, and always this. divergence from this is neither clever nor ever functional, it'll always reduce to "i'm running LPyFFF because I don't understand why F has to come before the alt-P".
mp_en_viaje: yes, you can use "flask" instead of apache. it's shitty, they know is shitty, the reason they "dont recommend" you put it naked on #80 is precisely that they know it's shit.
mp_en_viaje: linux-server-database-scriptglue. that's what it's gonna be. call them what you will, but try and remember : buying "alternatives" doesn't make you alternative. i buy rope from the rope store and server from the apache store because i don't wanna pay 5x for shittier rope bought at the "special bdsm store". it dun do nothing for me.
mp_en_viaje: python/perl/whatever are not "better php". they might be more comfortable php, which is exactly like "i feel weird buying condoms otc, i really need a brown paper bag". fine, whatever works for you. don't tell me though stories about "the really cool store with the really better condoms". they're not better just because the clerk awkwardness-matches you and the SAME EXACT fmcg offering is proffered in an extra brown paper wrapper.
mp_en_viaje: and this nonsense then drives and is driven by the typically ustardian mode of failure, "we'll be rich by doing each other's laundry" "service economy" answer to the exact problem of argentina discussed above is then manifested in the "we'll just wrap everything in wrapping wrappy wrapers" "tech"/"innovation"/"entrepreneurial" nonsense.
mp_en_viaje: yes, guido von fucktard is going to "invent" a "language to make programming easy for everyone", hurr. it's exactly as needed as a tin-foil-covered-kitchen-knife makes a great birthday present. yes, a bright 5yo / retarded 12yo might give you that for your birthday ; you may even briefly interact with it. it's still not a fucking thing --
mp_en_viaje: it's your knife, covered in some waste of your tin foil.
mp_en_viaje: then they're going to implement apache in php, because totally, this ~can~ be done. then they're going to have a lightweight apache to run their php and you're welcome to a) attempt to start three "servers" of this nonsense and b) wonder about the impedance mismatches.
mp_en_viaje: yet ~the thing that runs python~ is already apache. definitionally. it's a broken half-way implementation of apache, but this doesn't make it either lighter or better or faster or anything. doing half the job ain't being "agile", it's being costly in a hidden manner : someone somewhere downstream will have to implement what you left out at the proper level, and it'll be more expensive then.
mp_en_viaje: i get it, the concept grates, "but mp, i could design so much better systems" no you couldn't. the linux thing was successful ~coincidentally~. a space of possibilities was explored, and this is what STUCK. you can't design a better pile of nonsense for the exact reason you can't design a better elephant trunk : it wasn't fucking designed! it's what stuck!
mp_en_viaje: yes, i'm aware, if you made the giraffe it wouldn't have the laryngeal branch of the vagus go a mile around the heart. whopee for you, but do you know what ? galen was fucking aware this is happening in people too! it's called ~recurrent~ because it goes away and comes back, this is the case in all fucking mammals, equally "for no reason".
mp_en_viaje: it's not there because it was designed ; it's there because it was selected, which is a different thing. selection produces things that work, definitionally, that's what it is. not well or correctly or properly but AT ALL.
mp_en_viaje: so, to conclude the whole discussion : designing-improvements-on-selected-systems might be the lulziest impedance mismatch of them all. the prime directive of the engineer is to first become aware of the selected portions of his environment, and then take care around them. yes, you can design things -- but only in well understood contexts. part of that understanding, ~central~ part of that understanding is awareness of the selected portions, what
mp_en_viaje: drove the selection, how it drove it, etcetera.
mp_en_viaje: meanwhile in historical lulz nobody's expectedto understand, https://www.datamation.com/
mp_en_viaje: ant to continue : https://internet.com/ ; much like IAC, QuinnStreet is a "S&P 600 Component", you know, with supposed revenue out of those shit "properties" and assorted other self-imagined bullshit. believe.
mp_en_viaje: http://quinstreet.com/ aka http://trilema.com/2017/fake-news-are-just-one-tail-of-the-failed-female-state/
mp_en_viaje: https://www.nasdaq.com/press-release/quinstreet-reports-fourth-quarter-and-fiscal-year-2019-financial-results-20190808-01215 << also fucking beautiful.
phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-14#1928373 << not sure if answered already, but has been discussed in logs, http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-21#1546407
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 01:00:50 asciilifeform: phf's bot, incidentally, ate. now would be a notbad time for the fella to come the hell out of his coma and say how.
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2019/thelastpsychiatristcom-bipolar-rates-are-increasing-as-long-as-youre-willing-to-call-everything-bipolar-and-defy-gods-will-adnotated/ << Trilema -- thel....com - Bipolar Rates Are Increasing As Long As You're Willing To Call Everything Bipolar And Defy God's Will. Adnotated.
asciilifeform: ty phf , i'ma try said algo
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: i'm not about to defend individual pieces of the rusting junkyard from which built e.g. logger;
mp_en_viaje: and i'm not saying you did anything wrong
asciilifeform: and from certain pov (e.g. scrap dealer's, who only melts it down) all the rusty carcasses in junkyard are ~exactlysame. but from pov of the folx who go in when mp_en_viaje asks 'build a tank by mid august' -- not quite same.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-14#1928515 << this in particular is suspiciously similar to the traditional 'Free Market(tm)(r) gave us microshit, so eat up' of 1990s
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 03:47:31 mp_en_viaje: i get it, the concept grates, "but mp, i could design so much better systems" no you couldn't. the linux thing was successful ~coincidentally~. a space of possibilities was explored, and this is what STUCK. you can't design a better pile of nonsense for the exact reason you can't design a better elephant trunk : it wasn't fucking designed! it's what stuck!
mp_en_viaje: so the idea is, somehow a better use for linux will be found ?
asciilifeform: mno. lemme lay it out :
asciilifeform: this in particular is broadly true , and asciilifeform even has old piece re subj. and is why http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-14#1928497 -- observe -- ended up happening anyway, the current 'linux admins' are, for most part, in fact clucking at gui knobs.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 03:16:47 mp_en_viaje: the 1990s "tech support" kiddo (perhaps best typified by thorne, who is a faggoty "designer" ; though i'm aware everyone'd rather it be "BOFH" or whatever similar self-wank) running grep over everyone-workking-at-the-videostore's hoemdirs never had any say or pulled any weight. toxicfact or haetfact or whatever, fact stays fact.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 03:13:51 mp_en_viaje: i am aware various sysadmin-y folks flatter themselves that "something unixlike'd have existed anyway for our terminal&cmdline needs". this is utterly false, they'd have been clucking at GUI interfaces exactly like the medical profession / barristas everywhere, and been thankful when .jar finally rolled around.
asciilifeform: the capitalist of 1900 and the bureaucrat of 2000 have entirely common interest in deskilling ( skilled labour is poison , from pov of either ) and the underlying parts , whether computer or lathe or whatever, dun particularly matter, same pressure
asciilifeform: both, however, occasionally forced to make 'unprincipled exception', cuz the set of what can be done by deskilled monkey with 'cluck' tool is never 100% .
mp_en_viaje: this is also true, as a broad trend. it is unfortunate but true that the inept king prefers crossbowmen over archers, because archers take lifetime to train and dedication from puberty to craft, whereas crossbow can be operated by... outsourced labour. it takes a certain sort of short-sightedness to not notice the implicit band-of-brothers vs your own nobles cutting down your own mercs
snsabot: Logged on 2018-07-12 14:00:03 mircea_popescu: but do you recall the case of the misfortunate doria charge ?
mp_en_viaje: "oh, they're all dogs".
mp_en_viaje: then again, when the king's qualified to king age 12... shortsightedness comes with the crown.
asciilifeform: this portrait isn't wrong, but came out of particular instance of such problem in 1990s, when wwwism came into fashion. recall microshit's purchase of 'hotmail' ?
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 03:21:21 mp_en_viaje: so, not to put too fine a point on it : i really don't give so much of a shit what peculiar buttdildos you use in your own special universe to make yourself feel "different from the rest", "poetic", "not understood" and whatever other such highschooler personal investments. the fact of the matter is, linux exists for and through and by and because apache, mysql, and the glue gluing these together : php. that's what it is, that's what it's for, th
mp_en_viaje: note that it does not start 1900. present and attested 1346
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, what about the hotmail purchase ?
asciilifeform: when 'let's run it on microshit' and had to backpedal
mp_en_viaje: a yes
asciilifeform: the 'cluck' tech was not up to the level, just yet, of 'deskill AND still worx-well-enuff-for-the-chumps-to-eat'
asciilifeform: so they had to make grudging exception.
asciilifeform: all such exceptions, strictly temporary.
mp_en_viaje: you should see the atrocity that is facebook, today's successor. works actually worse than hotmail of the hopeful microsoft days
asciilifeform: unfortunately have seen.
mp_en_viaje: i'm hanging out with chicks yest, "oh, websites are dead" "what do you do if facebook decides one day fire refereences forbidden on its platform ?" "uhhh
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's model is, linux grew briefly in '90s exactly like tree seedling briefly grows through pavement crack. but in the end the tar pot and the roller do come, crack is sealed.
mp_en_viaje: i don't even disagree with the broad model.
asciilifeform: but to take this angle further -- it could have easily grown ( just as briefly, or longer, no one can know ) through ~different~ crack. if were not for www fad, could easily know linux today as 'that thing weird greybeards use for cnc-ing submarine propellers'
asciilifeform: asciilifeform has somewhat atypical ( and to mp_en_viaje , grating ) pov re linux because was never wwwist (until voluntarily fell on this grenade for tmsr work) , instead earned bread for yrs on such things as ~non networked~ linux boxen where crunched numbers, drove eldritch machinery, etc
asciilifeform: diff crack, in different place, in pavement , than early www .
mp_en_viaje: but it didn't! is the important point. yes giraffe could have had trunk and elephant wings. COULD HAVE. DID NOT. major diff.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 03:18:36 mp_en_viaje: now then, linux ~could have~ also been the definitive video stack, giving itself a lease on life extending past ~now. but then they fucked it all up.
asciilifeform: i see the wwwism fad as tumour mass, rather than giraffe. yes from 'who's got the most cells, haha' tumour in yer chest the size of basketball is a 'success' .
mp_en_viaje: the fact that they, literally, snatched defeat from jaws of victory, makes one suspect maybe these coulds weaker than desired.
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, incientally re http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-14#1928496 : ny chance your logger can be persuaded to un-fuck broken  lines ?
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 03:12:26 mp_en_viaje: com/2014/the-perfect-pitch/][point in case example].
mp_en_viaje: though in fairness i should probably just fix my fucking client.
asciilifeform: 'lamp' and the influx of deskilled labour connected with its rise , is imho exactly basketball tumour, and succinctly summarized by naggum
snsabot: Logged on 2017-02-18 17:29:22 asciilifeform: '... what was once dedication is replaced by greed and sometimes sheer need as the motivation to enter the field.'
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: unfuck split [ ] ? this is good idea imho
mp_en_viaje: yeah, but probably correct approach is to have client not split such a line wrongly.
asciilifeform: q is how many are missing chunks tho, as well as cut .
mp_en_viaje: the example doesn't, but i recall seeing some other client also take out chars yes.
asciilifeform: so result could easily be massive pile of clickable but abortus links
asciilifeform: but imho worth a try
asciilifeform: to pile on the upstack thrd tho : lamp, as i see it, was linux's great ~calamity~. w/out rise of www, linux (or, moar likely, the bsd's) would have stayed small, obscure ( like many of the other systems asciilifeform worked with , that actually work and mp_en_viaje never heard of, or heard of strictly in 'facebookized' variants ) but... working. i.e. remained a green shoot in the pavement, for however long .
mp_en_viaje: either that or he'd have gotten bored of it about the same time as he did irl, and dropped in the drawer.
asciilifeform: well linux in particular, as perpetrated by the finn, would almost certainly have stopped at the 'bored'
mp_en_viaje: this is the problem with systems that don't scale : yes, if your airplane can't take off, not attempting to take of is "wise".
mp_en_viaje: but an item that is premised on not attempting to take off is not airplane/
asciilifeform: but reactor would quietly run vms ( as incidentally they still do ) on vax.
mp_en_viaje: modern reactors run jars.
mp_en_viaje: i kid you not. ask the haliburtons
asciilifeform: what jars, ~all extant plants run on 1970s tech, never even swapped. there are folx making replacement parts for the pdp8.
mp_en_viaje: (private joke, re java license agreement, Mocky possibly appreciates)
asciilifeform: this is the interesting bit, there are industries where 'tree in the pavement' was never even approached, much less asphalted over, by ~either~ unix or microshit .
asciilifeform: ever hear of e.g. 'mumps' ?
asciilifeform: 1970s-era string-munging lang ~to this day~ used for medical db. runs on e.g. old ibm gear. look at it some time, will have nightmare. ( can 'redefine number 4' and so forth, and not only ~can~ but sometimes ~must~ ) but there it is , still in use.
mp_en_viaje: nothing comes to mind
asciilifeform: 1966 (!) design.
mp_en_viaje: oh, M!
asciilifeform: somewhat retarded heathen 'threat or menace' piece re subj, for anyone interested. difficult actually to find detailed material on the net re this item, i orig. encountered it by chance, deep in the salt mines, in person.
asciilifeform: this is actually typical of the 'trees in pavement', many/most have minimal net exposure. survival adaptation.
mp_en_viaje: well, no/minimal net exposure also became very easy to achieve these days.
asciilifeform: consider gnat. why is it that its corpse had usable organs in it when we dug up.
asciilifeform: it's universally the items that the wwwtards, microshit fruiting bodies, etc left for dead, where one still finds scrap of sanity and sumthing like documented, ~working~ moving parts.
mp_en_viaje: this vice thin gis fucked in the head
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: if i find a piece by actual human being on subj, will post.
asciilifeform: ( and , lol, then 'mumps' will be overrun and die in 3-5 yrs and the old men will go, some to 'cluck' at ms sql , others to bottle )
mp_en_viaje: i dunno about wwwtards! redditards i can see, but in the period between 93 and say digg days as the end, up to about 2010, having a website was rather a promise of sanity.
asciilifeform: rright, back when this required proficiency with the seed-in-pavement-of-the-day
asciilifeform: then -- the flood of 'driven not even by greed, but sheer ~need~' described by naggum.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje had a piece ( where is it, grr ) where '1) actual people make a thing 2) herd finds it 3) herd 'also wants' 4) herd 'regulates', 'manages' 5) actual-people pack it ...' etc
asciilifeform: asciilifeform was drawn into bitcoin (specifically as portrayed by mp_en_viaje ; was never in the tardstalk forum , and [in fact quite cold to the subj][http://www.loper-os.org/?p=939] until encountered mp_en_viaje ) specifically because appeared, to asciilifeform , to be the 1st known instance of a successful defense against the 1-5 rot progression .
asciilifeform tempted to make these bidirectional, it's entirely doable deterministically
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, seems like recurrent theme, tbh, not sure which piece
billymg: mp_en_viaje: responded to your comment on the tester post http://billymg.com/2019/08/mp-wp-automated-testing-proposal-and-vpatch/comment-page-1/#comment-33
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: found it -- http://trilema.com/2013/the-delusion-of-infrastructure/
asciilifeform: 'Some people make new stuff... The herd gathers round the new item... The herd proceeds to interact with the new item... The fallen... come forth to "lead" the herd, to create "rules" for "the betterment" of the herd... The people continue to make their things exactly as they feel like... The herd moos happily'
asciilifeform: so, to return to thrd, historically when tree grows through pavement 'successfully', a la lamp, the naggumocalypse is not far, eventually around tree is built 'city park', with 'rules & regulations', 9000 idlers & hobos with imagined 'rights' etc
asciilifeform: and in short order you get the lemon market, where 'why should i pay a cent moar, i know i will get exactly same shit as from lolmart no matter how much i pay'
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 03:28:54 mp_en_viaje: linux-server-database-scriptglue. that's what it's gonna be. call them what you will, but try and remember : buying "alternatives" doesn't make you alternative. i buy rope from the rope store and server from the apache store because i don't wanna pay 5x for shittier rope bought at the "special bdsm store". it dun do nothing for me.
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, btw, nice footer. i wonder how useful the random shooter will turn out
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: already found bugs using it !
asciilifeform: (see yest. log)
mp_en_viaje: billymg, i guess im stuck doing this, huh.
asciilifeform: here's another somewhat obscure example of the progression. recall in 1990s there were 9000 makers of pocket comps ? the kind could pull out on train and type into. all but 1 such, ended up in thralldom to microshit, and packaged (in rom!) winblowz 'ce', abominable liquishit, but somehow '100% market dominant'. the 1 holdout was a brit outfit, 'psion' . i have 1 here in torture room, it has better responsiveness than most pc ! the re
asciilifeform: st -- you can prolly predict. bought, turned into 'symbian', destroyed by idjicy.
asciilifeform: thing ran on 1 of the 1st mass prod. 'arm' cpu, also. and y'know the rest of what happened to those.
asciilifeform: there's no shortage of stories like this, they all begin and end in exactly same way, 'seen 1, seen'em all'
asciilifeform: ( on rare occasions, ends instead like bolix. but arguably similar enuff, fella who dies of heat and the other who -- of cold, still just as dead in the end)
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-14#1928499 << this also interesting in light of now-~forgotten 1990s wrecks. at one time there was a product called 'be' (and in its early yrs came with own machine, designed from 0, 'bebox') and was , to many folx, 'definitive machine for video', unlike unixlikes or microshit, the kernel was built for realtime response above-all .
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 03:18:36 mp_en_viaje: now then, linux ~could have~ also been the definitive video stack, giving itself a lease on life extending past ~now. but then they fucked it all up.
mp_en_viaje: then became... beos!
asciilifeform: well guesswat. surrounded by microshit (with crapple as hand-puppet) lymphocytes, digested, shat out.
asciilifeform: today lives in kunstkammer with the other abortusen
asciilifeform: when 'be' was alive, could in fact edit film on (1990s! era) pc ! instead of on dedicated tape decks. as caught on only decade later, when microshit deemed it possible on their i-cant-believe-its-not-os
billymg: mp_en_viaje: in theory we could write the tools that do what the heathen stack does, but i honestly think, given the intended purpose, it makes more sense to temporarily use them and then discard
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, nb article, i had even forgotten it!
mp_en_viaje: billymg, im actually working on a universal blog spec. it atm looks like
mp_en_viaje: ..header image, lowest layer, with title and byline superimposed, topmost layer.
mp_en_viaje: nfi if i'll manage to finish it or scrap it, but we see.
mp_en_viaje: im actually working [as per your orders] no less!
billymg: asciilifeform, mp_en_viaje: incidentally i recently stumbled upon that article myself and shared with pet -- was happy that she both understood it and enjoyed it
asciilifeform: billymg: which ?
billymg: the delusion of infrastructure one
asciilifeform: imho a++ likbez of subj.
billymg finds himself attempting to curate items for pet to acclimate her to republic without overloading all at once
mp_en_viaje: re http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-14#1928620 specifically : the fucking retards ACTUALLY do this, buy cheap shitty plastirope, cut it to ridiculous length, sell it as "kinky rope" in colored cardboard
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 12:08:00 asciilifeform: and in short order you get the lemon market, where 'why should i pay a cent moar, i know i will get exactly same shit as from lolmart no matter how much i pay'
asciilifeform: oh iknow, saw 9000 times. can see anywhere. consider crapple's $100 cables .
mp_en_viaje: most of my implements started life as... pet toys, at pet store. all sorta silicone beaters, ball launchers that are epic for hurt and so on
asciilifeform: i recall a mp_en_viaje piece where explained which parts of vacuum cleaner are best for this
mp_en_viaje: some things, such as machined steel buttplugs, yes. some other things, holy hell no, shitty handcuffs with plastifur hotglued on sorta-kinda ?!
asciilifeform: there was a 1990s piece re how chumps walk into ameri-'hardware store' and buy 'contractor-grade!111' plasti-tools that fall apart after 5 uses
asciilifeform: read this 20y ago. and then 1 day found shop where ~actual~ industrial tooling sold. no flashing neons, in fact is unmarked hole in abandoned-looking warehouse, entirely disappears when the place is closed and the burglar grille is down. and open only 2d/wk. there -- can buy, sans plastic, actual e.g. pneumatic hammers etc.
asciilifeform: former -- 'success', a la 'lamp. latter -- 'failure', i guess
billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-14#1928640 << awesome! even if implementation of tests change billymg would find this a useful map
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 12:29:47 mp_en_viaje: billymg, im actually working on a universal blog spec. it atm looks like
snsabot: Logged on 2016-06-19 23:21:04 mircea_popescu: I myself used a Hole Hawg to drill many holes through studs, which it did as a blender chops cabbage. I also used it to cut a few six-inch-diameter holes through an old lath-and-plaster ceiling. I chucked in a new hole saw, went up to the second story, reached down between the newly installed floor joists, and began to cut through the first-floor ceiling below. Where my homeowner's drill had labored and whined to spin the hu
asciilifeform: billymg: comment in yer mod queue
asciilifeform: btw dunno if anyone other than asciilifeform noticed, but on acct of the uniturd sadness, we already have diverging line indices between the various loggers.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 00:52:29 asciilifeform: lobbes: ahaha, guesswhat, http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/Vkk23/?raw=true
asciilifeform: ( i.e. mine is behind by -- of last count -- 6 , vs phf's )
asciilifeform: i'ma not attempt to do anyffin about this unless mp_en_viaje says specifically what ought to.
mp_en_viaje: well you're supposed to put the missing lines in, neh ?
asciilifeform: then will nuke all the log refs since !
mp_en_viaje: this is why you need uptime.
mp_en_viaje: yes, it will fuck log references, which is why you must not lose lines.
asciilifeform: bot ate 100% of phf's log in testing phase w/out losing lines. but lobbes in fact discovered uniturds that break py's eater. i'ma implement the fix described by phf , but the q will remain re what, if anyffin, to do re the in-between.
asciilifeform: ( they 'broke eater' in the sense that lobbesbot's emission was not logged; bot did not fall down and lose other lines , note. )
mp_en_viaje: what in between ?
mp_en_viaje: there's no in between. logger must reflect channel. that's what it does.
asciilifeform: well the lines from yest. lobesbot , until when i have the fix tested & deployed.
asciilifeform: these are complete other than the uniturd-containing emissions by lobbesbot. but result is that the numeration has diverged. ( we already discussed q of whether such divergence is 100% preventable in light of fleanode, tho , but inconclusively )
asciilifeform: if anyone thought 'hey asciilifeform can do in 5 days what phf did in 1yr' -- this is naive.
mp_en_viaje: also neither here nor there. fix it, and then fix the references.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: 'fix the refs' as in, modify stored lines ?
asciilifeform: then will diverge also vs all other logs (incl. folxs' local logs)
asciilifeform: can easily do this, but does mp_en_viaje want ?
mp_en_viaje: yes, i want. it will diverge, but wtf can we do.
asciilifeform: aite then will fix exactly like that.
mp_en_viaje: ideally this is the last one of such little malfeasant bitchfailures, where logger goes on working but not right
asciilifeform: ( and will sign diff of affected lines )
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: i'm still waiting to hear from e.g. ben_vulpes re what he did when bot fell down, to sync the indices with phf's
asciilifeform: so far mine at least not fell down, but we have not yet seen this wonder, of bot that never once fell
mp_en_viaje: i dunno that they're synced
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: yer right : e.g. http://logs.bvulpes.com/trilema?d=2019-8-14#479080 vs http://btcbase.org/log/2019-08-14#1928706
asciilifeform: ( wai such absolute magnitude of diff ?!!! )
mp_en_viaje: diff start times for one.
asciilifeform: that'd do it
mp_en_viaje: more practically :
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.bvulpes.com/trilema?d=2017-2-4#20314 is http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-04#1611273 whereas http://logs.bvulpes.com/trilema?d=2019-8-14#479086 (delta 458772) is http://btcbase.org/log/2019-08-14#1928712 (delta 317439)
mp_en_viaje: magically, bv has 44,5% more lines
asciilifeform: this horror aint even rare exception, but as i understand has happened to each logger to date when 1) bot fell 2) folx continued to speak 3) bot stood up . i'd like to devise a deterministic algo for wat-do in such cases, they will repeat for so long as we inhabit fleanode
asciilifeform: and (contrary to what some may thing) asciilifeform is not awake 24/7 at console to turn the crank immediately
mp_en_viaje: a) put missing lines in b) bump all references accordingly.
asciilifeform: seems like Right Thing .
mp_en_viaje: whoever doesn't like, can abstain from same-day referencing.
asciilifeform: ( and is why i baked the 'raw export' knob, ideally this is to be semi-automated , i.e. logger operators oughta be able to look, compare to e.g. own local log, and resync if agree )
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: i considered also to put 'delta' integer column in the db, specifically for this.
mp_en_viaje: (i suspect diff is because bv silently discards join/part spam, but indexes it)
asciilifeform: could be (dun display tho, so difficult to say for fact)
billymg: asciilifeform: approved and replied, ty
BingoBoingo: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-14#1928655 << Pet toys some of the few actual "durable" consumer goods on account of inability of princess in her own mind's inability to tell her dog to be gentle with the toys
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 12:34:04 mp_en_viaje: most of my implements started life as... pet toys, at pet store. all sorta silicone beaters, ball launchers that are epic for hurt and so on
mp_en_viaje: if i really manage to make the damn thing fit in a deck fo cards ima celebrate.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: re the log indices, there's a deeper q, that i'd like to lay out and ask mp_en_viaje to actually take halfhr+ to think about, with brain in full throttle, before answering, cuz it is very easy to spec this in such a way that asciilifeform's (or anyone's) pair of hands will not in fact be long enuff or fast enuff to handle
asciilifeform: consider, erry prev. log operator has gone mad. i suspect that know why.
mp_en_viaje is all ears.
asciilifeform: fleanode chan is not 'solid' object, it is a fecal object. in light of not only falling bots, but e.g. netsplits
asciilifeform: erry single incident of 'fleanode weather' can create , within <1sec, a split that -- with hands -- will take 10min (of practiced hand) to fix
asciilifeform: (and in the end still resulting in divergent text b/w loggers, as pointed out upstack)
asciilifeform: the other side of this, is q of 'what is canonical log' . i.e. is it mp_en_viaje's terminal (runs for 3-4 hrs / d ? and where did not even notice index off, asciilifeform had to notice and ring alarm ) ? asciilifeform's term ? (runs 24/7, but down for maybe 10min / yr ) ? or dulap 's ?
asciilifeform: this risks replay of 'clocks' flamewar, but at some pt gotta say 'this-here is canonical log'.
mp_en_viaje: do we ?
asciilifeform: suppose asciilifeform , mp_en_viaje , and BingoBoingo , all ended up on 1 side of netsplit.
asciilifeform: and billymg on other.
asciilifeform: would notice ? and what to do, when noticed, whose copy is 'it' ?
mp_en_viaje: now consider this matter from the other pov.
asciilifeform: ideally 'canonical' log imho would live in the rack under mp_en_viaje's throne. is how historically this sorta thing worx
mp_en_viaje: this being not theoretical wank but actual lived history.
asciilifeform: afaik the only extant sys which solved w/out 'rack in throne' is bitcoin.
mp_en_viaje: for long time mp was always-on, ran private multiple redundant loggers, etc. then mp went traveling, explicitly.
mp_en_viaje: and in month 4 or so of this traveling, where in other words mp was relying on other people to establish for him what is log, mp threw up because could not obtain a copy he could trust to scream at mod6 on good basis rather than on weak basis.
mp_en_viaje: this is what precipitated the aug 2 darkness.
mp_en_viaje: now -- i did not do this because i was bored or lacking for activity. i did it because imo it's very constructive.
mp_en_viaje: i do not believe such a thing as ~a~ cannonical copy may exist.
mp_en_viaje: the costs to defend / benefits to attack mount exponentially, it is not a stable design.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: i'm not about to make argument 'eh i have drinking to do , rather than sync logs'. but if it takes fleanode 100msec to make a split, and asciilifeform -- 5min to fix it, this is not tenable to maintain promise of 'ultimate log'
mp_en_viaje: nor do i think that's what's desired.
mp_en_viaje: in my mind, the process works through -- everyone, mp included, has to make ~a judgement~, their own judgement, at any given point, re the logs.
asciilifeform: i'd like to avoid the situation where ' asciilifeform fixed on best-effort basis, and 1 time breaks leg' and then like phf.
mp_en_viaje: which is why "logging monopoly" was listed with the "sadness" in the possible outcomes list.
mp_en_viaje: if it were joyous i'd havejust done it, you know ?
asciilifeform: which is why i put in raw-export, db dump (0 hrs / daily newyork time) etc
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, yes, but hard to like-phf when actually communicating things, on one hand. and on the other, hopefully multiple of these.
asciilifeform: ideally would have 5-6 ~heterogeneous~ loggers
asciilifeform: we dun have'em yet tho. and if tonight fleanode 'storm' and 9,000,000 splits, then wat.
mp_en_viaje: and not ~merely~ multiple as nude existence. nude as reflective process, people keeping track of them.
asciilifeform: naturally, when say 'logger' mean 'human', rather than the space heater
asciilifeform: as in, operators
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, then we be sad. what can we do ? http://trilema.com/2015/a-lunatic-with-a-bloodied-axe-could-be-ringing-at-your-door/ !!!
asciilifeform: ~this~ particular lunatic rings door with some regularity.
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, i mean deeper, like x going "hey y, why is your logger divergent from z's in k spot"
asciilifeform: but as it is, we have 'memory leak' for operator time -- enemy can trivially occupy 100% of l1 hands for arbitrary time w/ the work of spoon-feeding logs
mp_en_viaje: this is kinda-sorta where my "add logger to mp-wp pages" thing goes towards. conceivably one could have a reconcillation process as part of one's blog
mp_en_viaje: as step towards ye gossipd of lore.
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2019/what-is-a-blog-complete-spec-inside/ << Trilema -- What is a blog ? Complete spec inside!
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, in principle, yes. historically i kept discouraging you personally from making logger because to my (admittedly -- naive) mind it was task perfectly suited to ambitious youth
mp_en_viaje: turns out -- eminently not.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: i'm not married to a particular set of junkyard wrecks out of what people to make loggers. but the solution has to be reasonably automatic, or e.g. asciilifeform for the rest of his days will be doing nuffin but munging db, and it ~still~ won't be satisfactorily correct
asciilifeform: atm logger is actually eating 100% of asciilifeform .
mp_en_viaje: i believe.
asciilifeform: ( and still arguably dud ! )
mp_en_viaje: i am hoping the cp1252 bs is the last of the nonsense.
mp_en_viaje: your fleet of flasks though, that's unstable, and will likely blow up in future imo, but that's another time.
asciilifeform: well ~that~ nonsense yes. but netsplits etc. will continue for so long as fleanode
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: phuctor running since '13 on it.
mp_en_viaje: i believe.
asciilifeform: ( and on its, what, 4th box )
asciilifeform: depending on what means 'stable' mp_en_viaje could be right.
asciilifeform: it aint unstable in the 'falls down like win95' sense tho.
mp_en_viaje: anyway, your idea is "what happens if logger netsplit" ? could we revisit this after 2-3 actual resplits ?
asciilifeform: arguably -- unstable in the http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-10#1927225 sense .
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-10 11:27:26 asciilifeform: diana_coman: atm i'm somewhat curious whether the logotron is even reproducible
asciilifeform: the whole q reduces to gossipd, as mp_en_viaje pointed out already. atm we're attempting to hand-crank gossipd.
mp_en_viaje: i suspect this is so.
mp_en_viaje: but my reasoning is (and was, trhoughout), "well, let's see then"
asciilifeform: i'ma fix the uniturdism in coming days. and diddle the log as described by mp_en_viaje . but when next net split, or bot eventually falls (no one afaik has yet written/hosted bot that did not fall at least erry 6wks ) we will have to revisit the wat-do
mp_en_viaje: well, maybe not the very-next
mp_en_viaje: but yes.
asciilifeform: ideally by then can auto-sync from e.g. diana's bot in fortran
mp_en_viaje: i expect large portions of lobbesbot actually salvageable ; spyked was making a lisp one too iirc.
asciilifeform: i admit, i half-expected mp_en_viaje to pick up his skepter and declare 'this here is only working logger atm, and the breaking turd is a uniturd from bot, let errybody else lose the 6lines'
mp_en_viaje: why ?
asciilifeform: cuz the alternative is eventually http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-14#1928742 . sooner or later.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 13:41:36 asciilifeform: i'd like to avoid the situation where ' asciilifeform fixed on best-effort basis, and 1 time breaks leg' and then like phf.
mp_en_viaje: you didn't miss the http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-14#1928746 part, did you ?
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 13:42:26 mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, yes, but hard to like-phf when actually communicating things, on one hand. and on the other, hopefully multiple of these.
asciilifeform: presently i suspect that even three dedicated folx, working in shifts, could not reliably 'meat gossipd' 100%
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: no, i get. but i dun have a squad of people who will immediately report ' asciilifeform broke leg, is in ditch ' . have 1, who is trained to report -- if doesn't simultaneously break leg/neck with asciilifeform .
asciilifeform: what i also have, is long (and much backed up) queue of tmsr work that aint 'hand feed logger'
mp_en_viaje: i feel you, man.
mp_en_viaje: da fuck can we do. contrary to popular fiction, i dun have any reality-altering regalia.
asciilifeform: unlike the gurlz, i dun need particularly anyone to 'feel for', but would like something resembling a sustainable algo.
mp_en_viaje: can sometimes alter minds, and more rarely the future. but the past...
mp_en_viaje: well, so far the algo is, let it die 2-3 times and we see then.
asciilifeform: i'ma fix the uni-idjicy found by lobbes ( and apparently described in log by phf 2+ y ago ) , and add the 'did i join or am i pissing into wind' detector discussed 2d ago, to bot
asciilifeform: but 'weather' will remain open q .
mp_en_viaje: and dun let the (understandable) anxiety of it eat your brain. we shall figure it out, on the basis of meeting it irl.
asciilifeform: i dun so much suffer from anxieties, but would like folx to know that currently asciilifeform built not proper wall, but the kind portrayed in mp_en_viaje's old ro piece where 'builder stands and holds up'
asciilifeform: this ties up hands .
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-14#1928760 << i still think, tbh, that it would be ideal for one such. but so far errybody broke teeth.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 13:45:17 mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, in principle, yes. historically i kept discouraging you personally from making logger because to my (admittedly -- naive) mind it was task perfectly suited to ambitious youth
asciilifeform actually found himself sitting to think, for hour+, before picking up the logger grenade
asciilifeform ended up with 'партия сказала надо -- комсомол ответил: есть!' but largely from lack of any apparent motion on front by other folx
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's logger intended moar as ice breaker ship, to make the subj navigable, than final solution. and 'final' -- as already detailed by mp_en_viaje -- would be a constellation of heterogeneous items that know how to speak a common sync, operated by diff people.
asciilifeform: ( and out of ~which~ fortrans people make'em -- php, focal, cobol, whatever -- is distinctly secondary q )
phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-14#1928700 << in general this hasn't happened to a111 (though i don't have full netsplit coverage, since that requires a bot per all the possible servers we are connected to), i've described the solution in logs, though i can't find it now. when a111 falls over, on reconnect it asks the znc machine to give it all the messages since the timestamp of last known message (+3 hours to
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 13:14:01 asciilifeform: this horror aint even rare exception, but as i understand has happened to each logger to date when 1) bot fell 2) folx continued to speak 3) bot stood up . i'd like to devise a deterministic algo for wat-do in such cases, they will repeat for so long as we inhabit fleanode
phf: accommodate drift). the messages are then merged into the log (i.e. i find the overlap of known messages, and then add the missing messages). since both znc and a111 tend to be fairly stable, the combination of the two provided adequate coverage
asciilifeform: wb phf . just 1 znc, or multiples ?
phf: just one, this provided enough redundancy, but also allowed for a trivial merge algorithm. i suspect with multiple znc you'll have to work harder to discover consensus
asciilifeform: considering reordering, would need sumthing like , e.g.,
asciilifeform: !qs needleman
asciilifeform actually posted working coad for n-w . but, naturally, in CL..
phf: also znc is incidental, i have a trivial flask (or maybe "bottle") server that parses znc logs and gives the result out in the log-format
phf: this is basically the same as your special endpoint for giving out the 500 log messages
asciilifeform: right, assumed that phf meant 'znc' in abstract, i.e. any proggy that logs straight to txt , rather than concretely znc
asciilifeform: phf: at the risk of 'broken record', i gotta say that all of this would be 9000x moar helpful if existed as genesis , rather than asciilifeform to sit and derive from old logs and phf's summary, how was done.
asciilifeform: phf: my logbot genesis is some of the ugliest piece of shit yet put through 'v' . so dun be afraid to publish similar.
asciilifeform: in general folx oughta overcome this phobia. took me -- yrs. but gotta be done. piece of shit that was genesis'd -- can be fixed. whereas if not genesis'd, how can fix ?
asciilifeform: i genesised 5000ln+ of fucking asm!! last month. and scarcely expect that anyone will read, aside maybe from mp_en_viaje's gurlz as a punishment detail. but it has to be done.
phf: asciilifeform: well i gave you timeframe, it's easy for me to provide a few hints right now, significantly harder to unwrap a ball of yarn
asciilifeform: phf: aha
asciilifeform: i vaguely suspected that phf's proggy exists as currently-unreproducible (i.e. not fully represented by the source) 'save-lisp-and-die' ball
asciilifeform: when unravelled -- plox to post, i will read. (and if find that actually fits into asciilifeform's head -- sign.)
diana_alt: hello from Vilnius, /me slowly catches up with the logs
feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/08/verizon-unloads-tumblr-on-automattic-after-value-collapses-under-porn-ban/ << Qntra -- Verizon Unloads Tumblr On Automattic After Value Collapses Under Porn Ban
mp_en_viaje: and automattic paid in kelly bundy money. hey dorks... you could've hit me up, the half bitcoin or w/e you actually got for the "valuable online property" is not so hard to match for the actual billionaires in this world.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-05-18 02:05:52 mp_en_viaje: because it takes a certain dose of insanity to think the equation you solved was the equation that was being presented. you recall that episone in married with children when christina applegate was saving cereal box K's to buy car ?
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 04:22:13 mp_en_viaje: ant to continue : https://internet.com/ ; much like IAC, QuinnStreet is a "S&P 600 Component", you know, with supposed revenue out of those shit "properties" and assorted other self-imagined bullshit. believe.
mp_en_viaje: fancy that, could've put it right back on the street, ban anyone who ~never~ published any cunt instead.
BingoBoingo: Seriously. I suspect the fact you might have actually bought it if they solicited bids is why the details are undisclosed
BingoBoingo: Forbes is Derping English about how "Argentina won't become Venezuela" even though Argentina is entering this crisis with even less to offer than Venezuela ever had (at least after burning mineral oils for energy became a thing).
mp_en_viaje: to continue the keks : "PC Magazine reported that in December, Tumblr had an estimated 520 million visits, which dropped to 436 million in January and then 369 million in February." ; https://i.ibb.co/VL0Vmps/lulztumblr.png
mp_en_viaje: BingoBoingo, not to mention venezuelan chicks fuckable in the first place.
BingoBoingo: Indeed. They also speak more clearly and more kitchen competent.
mp_en_viaje: anyways... that tumblr thing... keks of all time.
mp_en_viaje: im like tear-eyed over here.
mp_en_viaje: same dumb cunts, except esl rather than rsl.
BingoBoingo: This is a very kek'y week
mp_en_viaje: so it is
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-14#1928837 << lol!! why wouldja want it ?!
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 18:46:25 mp_en_viaje: and automattic paid in kelly bundy money. hey dorks... you could've hit me up, the half bitcoin or w/e you actually got for the "valuable online property" is not so hard to match for the actual billionaires in this world.
asciilifeform: thing is what -- an ad-encrusted 'pastebin' ?
mp_en_viaje: nfi that i would. but potentially, as i said, to ban anyone who didn't post tits.
mp_en_viaje: eh, what's pron traffic anymore, a buck per thousand clicks ? if half those pageviews are real there you go, 200k/month or so.
asciilifeform: if i understand correctly the ad-chumpatron , these 200 will be paid in 'coupon good to buy ads yourself' or other 'iou'
asciilifeform: as portrayed in mp_en_viaje's 'unflattering truth'
mp_en_viaje: nah, different ends. these 200k are ~equivalent of rounding up 100k girlies in india / rwanda refugee camp etc.
asciilifeform: i.e. lotta work for a ??? output ?
mp_en_viaje: "any blowjob $2" "why would i want to stick my cock in this ?" "$2!!!"
mp_en_viaje: meanwhile in vaguely related lulz : http://vagazine.com/vaga_v3/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Sharon_Gault_makeup_David_LaChapelle4.jpg
mp_en_viaje: guess item
mp_en_viaje: s claim to fame.
asciilifeform: ugh cant unsee
asciilifeform: hey BingoBoingo ^ 1 for your files
mp_en_viaje: supposedly someone slipped her a mickey ~and sodomized her~ during madonna's 1991 tour.
asciilifeform: i take it portrait is modern , and not '91 ?
asciilifeform: or saying someone whateverized ~that~
mp_en_viaje: she was always fat.
mp_en_viaje: portrait is i'd guess decade old by now
asciilifeform: i guess possible, '"I s-s-said that they w-w-weren't hogs. They were s-sows", Slim managed to choke out, so overcome with fear that a thin stream of hot liquid diarreah began to dribble...'
asciilifeform: wtf, incidentally, is 'Automattic' ? sounds familiar for some reason
asciilifeform: aa ha 'the parent company of Wordpress.com, the popular online publishing system' apparently
asciilifeform: iirc same graveyard as 'slashdot' an' 'digg' ?
mp_en_viaje: no, digg kept getting spun and respun, slashdot got bought by some spammer outfit that promptly went to shit.
asciilifeform: this one not to-shit tho ? in what sense is wp even a saleable product ?
BingoBoingo: Automattic lives because it proliferates USG DDoS hazard
asciilifeform: ah hm i suppose in ~that~ sense
mp_en_viaje: digg ~still~ pretends to relevancy, to this very day. their claim just as good at any point throughout as reddit's, actually. just... no note from hitler, meaning pravda dun ever mention digg with the pomp & implication it mentions reddit
mp_en_viaje: otherwise, ===/
BingoBoingo: They charge ~100 bucks a year for "use own domain with wordpress.com blog" or something like that
asciilifeform: hm i thought 'digg' mostly emptied out in the infamous 'decss incident'
mp_en_viaje: reddit emptied out once they turned on their pedo constituency to gain approval from the oldcunt lobby.
asciilifeform: rright but digg iirc in '07 or around, emptied
mp_en_viaje: well, reddit couldn't have emptied at same time as it ~didn't exist back then. but still, they did their best and 2012ish or so i think it was ?
asciilifeform: iirc it even existed, in embryonic form, then
asciilifeform quit reddit long before '12 , cannot comment re when 'peak'
asciilifeform: through my lens, peak was '07ish.
asciilifeform: ( of readability, rather than mass )
mp_en_viaje: reddit peak in 2007 ?!
mp_en_viaje: this is like saying internet peaked in 1992. sure, by any other criterion than whatever they actually use.
asciilifeform: aaha, from my pov. when it was a hand-sewn www forum for 20 or so commonlisp holdouts 'who didn't know the war ended'(tm)
asciilifeform: internet indeed peaked in '92!11
asciilifeform missed -- peak. didn't get dirty hands in till '93...
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: 'oldcunt lobby' prolly Officially holds that gurlz 'peak' at 55. they can apply their standard, i can apply other.
asciilifeform: and in so far as i know, reddit never made a lick of profit
mp_en_viaje: certainly not.
asciilifeform: + even possible that the best financial health it was ever in, was '07, when all it owed was 4figs to old man graham
mp_en_viaje: all the usg webshits are exercises in http://trilema.com/2019/trilema-images-no-longer-showing/#comment-130435
asciilifeform: well also in http://trilema.com/2015/on-how-the-factored-4096-rsa-keys-story-was-handled-and-what-it-means-to-you/
mp_en_viaje: that;s the other thign re tumblr : it likely costs 1-2mn/month to run as it is. could prolly be ran for 1-200k, but as you point out, not by esltards.
snsabot: Logged on 2018-06-16 11:06:11 asciilifeform: if bought from usg, yes, million
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: i distinctly recall that it in fact is 1 of those 'indian coad' wwws that randomly drops db commits
snsabot: Logged on 2017-02-18 22:54:14 asciilifeform: (iirc we had a thread where i described how corporate ameritards, if given a problem like phuctor, would happily soak up a few $mil and megawatt of iron)
asciilifeform: as in 'unflatt. truth', aha
asciilifeform once listened to a d00d, who, with straight face, 'we then got $100m in series-a fund; but of course immediately 30 had to spend on web site..'
mp_en_viaje: imagine that lulz. and they got... a lamp.
asciilifeform assumed, tho never found out, that then 70 spent on sofas.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: given context, chances are it wasn't even 'lamp' but.. microshit
mp_en_viaje: meanwhile in interwebs dramaz, https://twitter.com/deepnudeapp (tl;dr : dorks made a "fake nude" app, got scared of response.)
mp_en_viaje: obviously, trivial to make a fake nude app. anyone wanna ?
asciilifeform: iirc there's leaked sores
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2019/thelastpsychiatristcom-birth-order-are-first-borns-always-older-than-their-siblings-adnotated/ << Trilema -- thel....com - Birth Order: Are First Borns Always Older Than Their Siblings? Adnotated.