vex: when you're still trimming
vex: hold on kids
phf: asciilifeform: i'm less and less sharing your dislike for pdfs. i think it's a maligned format, because of its incompetent custodian adobe. i'm just looking at the variety of pdf documents, and their corresponding crossplatform support i.e. can render noaa's naval chart which is all shapes as well as mit ai note which is just tiff wrapper equally well on e.g. plan9
phf: noaa chart https://www.charts.noaa.gov/PDFs/12211.pdf, i've seen similar map outputs from usg, and with mupdf library for rendering, some simple framebuffer hacks and with gps input used it as a kind of free man's google maps
phf: there are other two interesting usecases. one is https://www.alchemistowl.org/pocorgtfo/ which is a sort of phrack reboot. they exploit polyglot format hacks to make their latex magazine contain a zip file also, with the corresponding goodies from the magazine. so it's a kind of old school "comes with a cdrom" experience, where you get an interesting periodical, which you can also unzip and get throwaway goodies
asciilifeform: phf: imho ps was a perfectly decent format, and irreplaceable for some use cases. whereas for e.g. scans, to this day no substitute for djvu
asciilifeform: pdf otoh is astonishingly bloated imho, and the renderers of very questionable quality (and dog slow)
phf: the other use case that got me thinking about pdfs again is `man's world` magazine which is a kind of twitter right wing tongue in cheek "playboy for the articles" e.g. https://wiki.chadnet.org/files/mans-world-issue-5.pdf where besides self evident "magazine" aspects, you also have inflamatory content and benefits from single file samizdat aspect. can't deplatform as file, etc.
asciilifeform: wainot djvu for these ?
asciilifeform: 90% of asciilifeform's dislike of pdf is on acct of it being an epic cpu hog
asciilifeform: bw hog too, entirely avoidably
phf: asciilifeform: mostly because http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-07#1105047
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-07 11:11:35 phf: asciilifeform: but i'm saying that this particular perspective is limiting, because will leave rough edges where "why retards no use, probably because retarded" rather then "you have to flip flag n_x and twiddle relay proxy to send picture to grandma"
phf: djvu doesn't exist in any usable form outside of linux. mac client is from the 90s, no online renderers, etc.
asciilifeform: phf: on the contrary, asciilifeform for instance reads'em on a standard crapplepad where phree renderer avail.
asciilifeform: prolly >1 at this pt
asciilifeform: is actually wai asciilifeform even has the crapplepad
asciilifeform: earlier had 'kindle dx' and there was an (aftermarket) patch (admittedly gnarly to apply) which added djvuism
phf: yes, wainot djvu
asciilifeform: well answer 'wainot' is obv., it has no tbtf pusher to force support by default on erry 50$ konsoomer box
asciilifeform: but -- remains superior format, for nearly all use cases imho
phf: well, on a personal level, besides the ^ i've mostly gave up on djvu because it requires significant effort to write it in lisp, because their compression system is clever. to this day i don't think djvu exists outside of their reference code
asciilifeform: afaik ^ factual
phf: i've tried, granted a decade ago, when the task would've been at the limit of my abilities, gave up
asciilifeform when needed to generate'em, used the traditional encoder with ordinary jpg as intermediate
asciilifeform pictures if 'mp3' had not caught on, situation in audio would resemble that of graphics; djvu arguably directly analogous to mp3ism
asciilifeform: ... pdf analogous to '90s 'wav' audio
asciilifeform: but without even the benefit of being cpu-light
phf: that's fud
asciilifeform must disagree, exactly same $warez when transcoded to djvu 'flies' like microfiche when scrolled on asciilifeform's boxen, in stark contrast to the orig. pdf
phf: asciilifeform: but that's not a measure for anything! unrelated to the fact that i started my argument from "pdf might not be too bad", your position is superficial
asciilifeform: cpu/bw efficiency entirely uninteresting aspect from phf's pov ?
asciilifeform: fwiw asciilifeform has a recent 'threadripper' from $client, just about best box money could buy in '21, and 200MB+ b00kw4r3z pdf on it still 'crawl'
phf: asciilifeform: cpu/bw efficiency is not inherent to the format, without considering the whys of things your argument becomes cargo cultish
asciilifeform: but is inherent, is the thing
phf: how's it inherent?
asciilifeform: afaik no way to wavelet-compress (and render correctly to multiple res.) in pdf
asciilifeform: the latter also encourages heavy vectorism, which made sense in days of ps and need to draw sharp edges on 50 diff. phototypesetters, but largely wasted on lcd
asciilifeform: (and pdf bakers roll in bitmap graphics anyway, which blows away the resolution-independence if at reasonable res, and guzzles bw/cpu if embedded at 'printer' res)
phf: asciilifeform: of course there's a way to wavelet compress, just pack pdfs ;)
asciilifeform: 200MB pdf turns into a visually-~identical 8MB djvu, and given that phf looked into the mechanics of the formats, likely knows why
phf: *just pack jpegs
asciilifeform: phf: indiv. packing per page doesn't give djvu-style compression, tho
asciilifeform: incidentally djvu has own headaches on acct of 'too clever' compressor, e.g. notice how in some scans и turns to н errywhere, as if some evildoer with time machine went back and fucked 'наука и жизнь' at typesetter
phf: asciilifeform: the trick that djvu plays is separating text rendering from image rendering, and then the image is compressed very agressively (that's why you often see visual artifacts on non-text parts of djvu)
asciilifeform: phf: more often noticed artifacts (as pictured above) in the ~text~
phf: right, because a kind of poor man's ocr
asciilifeform suspects this sharp edge could be sanded off if the thing had continued to develop actively
asciilifeform: quite like 'poor man's ocr'
asciilifeform: worx surprisingly well tho, imho
asciilifeform: and spectacularly economical of resources
phf: my point though is that djvu is a scan compression technology with barely a container, while pdf is exclusively a container. comparing the two as equivalents is silly, because the later obviously has more usecases
phf: can e.g. print tex to pdf and e.g. "spectacularly economical of resources" result
phf: *and get
asciilifeform: upstack, in less 'superficial' observations than merely 'does this take 10s to draw a page on asciilifeform's box' -- pdfism and likewise djvuism suffer from similar sad, that being a rejection of hypertext -- can link to indiv. chapter ? navigating to a link and returning result in a multi-minute rerender of megaturd; overall regression to 'dark age' imho
phf: it's superficial because http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-09#1105319
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-09 11:30:06 phf: my point though is that djvu is a scan compression technology with barely a container, while pdf is exclusively a container. comparing the two as equivalents is silly, because the later obviously has more usecases
asciilifeform: phf: if there were a viewer which directly and quickly renders tex in a graphical window and 'flies like microfiche' doing so, asciilifeform would then say 'tex is the superior distrib. format'
asciilifeform: phf: pdf is container, with an enumerated set of possible contents none of which afaik amts to a decent djvu-style compressor for b00kw4r3z.
asciilifeform: ( and , suspect, wouldn't in practice make much diff if one were added, good % of such warez consists of vectorized masters intended for press, which weigh gigatonnes )
phf: "you're wrong but even if you're not you're still wrong", man, why did i even enter this conversation :>
asciilifeform tried on various occasions to djvuize these, the sharp lines of the vectorisms disintegrate into ugh
phf: in other words "pdf is not as good for bookwarez". i agree
asciilifeform agrees that pdf worx over9000 better than anyffin else currently in mass use for throwing to printer. which, unsurprising, because was the intended use orig.
phf: but observe that djvu is not at all popular in the comic book world, where want to preserve pretty picture, so also a very narrow kind of bookwarez
asciilifeform not directly familiar with how comic aficionados compress, but believes
asciilifeform: can see wai, tho -- lossy
asciilifeform admits that thrd munges together 2 quite dissimilar use cases -- conversion to electro-warez of printed matter, and issuance of new content
asciilifeform: imho fact that pdf is still attractive to over9000 folx for the latter, is evidence of catastrophic failure of www browser concept, rather than success of pdf
phf: right, that's why i started with particular use cases rather then "pdf is awsomex!!"
phf: and yeah, come to think of it, this is a good summation of where i'm comming from: pdf as an alternative to web browser
phf: particularly relevant on platforms where can't get "chrome" running, can still get rich content
phf: or maybe even on principle
asciilifeform: aha, on such machines one ends up living in a permanent 1980s, i.e. emulating a printer to read prettyprinted texts
asciilifeform: this imho from failure of state of the art to advance in re rendering on screen.
asciilifeform: there's no particular reason why hypertext had to turn into the extant turd soup.
asciilifeform: even where 'chrome' runs, still ugh
phf: i was already thinking about the pdf's sneakernet aspect because of man's world, but started thinking about it again because of noaa charts (over last weekend had an opportunity to use one on a boat that was not outfitted with a margine gps). wrote a program that rendered a crop of a chart, and placed an X where gps located to a linux framebuffer
asciilifeform recalls epic sweat to render equations in 'ffa' in ordinary browser w/out resort to bitmaps
asciilifeform: phf: asciilifeform would've naively supposed that commercial boat navigatrons do this; but not esp. surprised to learn that it had to be made by hand 'на коленке'
asciilifeform: nuffin worx in shitware.
phf: asciilifeform: was missing marine gps. it was just a bay side pleasure boat
phf: but i wanted to take it further out, so we ended up going to chincoteague bay, and getting into the nooks and crannies of shoreline. at the end of the day на коленке was alien god like technology for 19th century skipper, worked a+++ :>
phf: so in this context pdf is a kind of container of vectors, prepackaged, at the resolution sufficient for a naval chart. can also do it with svg but at 10x the size, and significant missing functionality
phf: can also do it with custom software or else "send your trip to google"
asciilifeform: hm didn't think google's thing even supported water
asciilifeform: (even supposing one wanted)
asciilifeform: phf: what did the map look like 'internally' in the pdf container ?
phf: asciilifeform: there's a popular package that's available as online and as offline dataset. online uses google maps stack to provide ux, i suppose most data doesn't travel through google, but who knows
asciilifeform: (what'd be, theoretically, an optimal representation of it equiv. to orig. ?)
phf: asciilifeform: all vector. "at such and such coordinate place a black squiggle 2em thickness, at such and such coordinate write `sand dunes, etc"
phf: i suspect noaa keeps some kind of oracle database of this stuff, that they generate pdfs from using custom code
asciilifeform vaguely recalls that these typically start life in an ancient fortranism-era usg std. format, prior to pdf edition, but can't recall detail
phf: or that yes
phf: in fact pdf sig says that it was generated using "iTextSharp" which is an agpl pdf slinger for .net
phf: and to wrap this thread found a very old screenshot of mine of using cl-pdf to pack edgy comic book into a pdf container :D http://glyf.org/screenshots/osx_04-Aug-2006_230359.png
verisimilitude: I've authored some PDFs and encountered none of these issues, but I was only doing simple things.
verisimilitude: I agree that emulating paper is terrible, but it's adequate for when I needed to distribute some documents with simple formatting.
verisimilitude: These documents were intended for relatively normal people, and so distributing markup was unacceptable.
verisimilitude: On the topic of horrible software, I noticed something about sh: I was writing a tiny program intended for distribution soon, and avoided all loops by transforming the data appropriately; the entire program is a pipeline, as another of mine is, and it's actually similar to John Backus' FP, if the entire environment and every primitive were designed by a fucking idiot instead.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-09#1105366 << ha, nifty; was this on a 12in. 'powerbook' by any chance ?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-09 12:14:44 phf: and to wrap this thread found a very old screenshot of mine of using cl-pdf to pack edgy comic book into a pdf container :D http://glyf.org/screenshots/osx_04-Aug-2006_230359.png
asciilifeform had that box, was a++ for its time , 1st lappy asciilifeform ever owned that worked 100% properly (incl. 'sleep') etc
asciilifeform had bought it as 'total wreckage', laboriously replaced various pieces
asciilifeform: as late as 2012 still worked, lent to a phriend , from whose car was promptly stolen in bmore badlands
punkman: https://spandrell.com/2022/2/17/better-people << spandrell has now reached ~decade old trilema conclusions
punkman: "This isn't a goodbye, this blog will stay up. The internet needs a place where people can say nigger."
verisimilitude: This man is poisoned by memes.
asciilifeform wonders what, if anyffin, spandrell & co. will say if the 'vax victims' fail to keel over on schedule
asciilifeform: 'How can any red-blooded man even keep the motivation to engage in mass politics after these two years?' << s/two/seventyfive
asciilifeform lulz over the anglotards who genuinely convinced that 'their democracy'(tm)(r) was a thing, and 'only stopped in '19'
asciilifeform: '20, or whenever
verisimilitude: I've successfully convinced some family members that, no, society was fucked well before any of us were born, and it's not just the last decade that be bad.
verisimilitude: To mock: ``Obama is the anti-christ. Why no, what was MK-ULTRA?''
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-02-28 15:09:09 asciilifeform: PeterL: in 1900s, as inescapable consequence of industrialization planet3 was carved up into totalitarian reichs. these have gone and will continue to go by various names, issue costumes.
asciilifeform: i.e. go about thinking that their particular reich 'preserved democracy' in '30s , which then 'won ww2'
verisimilitude: I wonder what will happen before my death.
verisimilitude: Democracy with more than a few hundred people at most is worse than worthless.
asciilifeform finds the spandrells, moldbugs, etc. just as tiresomely morose as the reich goebbelses they are nominally 'in opposition' to
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-02-12 20:11:40 asciilifeform: late-era sovok contained quite a few figures resembling, imho more than superficially, taleb -- i.e. 'dissidents' which were nominally in opposition to it (but vanished into insignificance with its collapse) , nominally 'oppressed' (while occupying plum jobs -- 'writer's union' came w/ massive leisure, primo food, vacation house, car, sometimes -- driver)
asciilifeform: ... 'bap', et al, all of'em
asciilifeform: just about all of'em carry around virtually identical anglo-cockroaches in their heads
asciilifeform: dun even recall any ever showing symptoms of having e.g. worked for a living, or actually finding himself living with the 'niggers', moar or less same aristocrats who whined in sovok , because couldn't 'drink bavarian', or their writers' union private auto didn't come with a driver, etc
phf: asciilifeform: i remember you were a fan of orlol though
phf: similar, if more refined creature
asciilifeform: he had coupla good pieces. but suffered from exactly this disease, d00d 'ripped into reich' while for many yrs pushing warmism, ranting against fission industry, + misc. dnc talking points. switched off like a fucking lamp when moved back to ru, nao pushing 'ru uber alles' etc w/ same enthusiasm
phf: asciilifeform: i can't shame him for it, i still remember your comment thread on tiphareth, where "you don't bow to nato? must be vatnik shill"
asciilifeform: aha was massive box of lulz
asciilifeform: 'this one gotta be a high-ranking kgb officer, how else can speak engl AND proper tardboard ru dialect..' etc
phf: i don't remember many lulz, but the one that stuck is kaledin going "he most definitely doesn't live in america, because nobody writes dollar after number!!1"
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-02-15 19:44:36 asciilifeform: meanwhile, in 'let's drill in the deep sea' adventures : made a shot at enculturating nominally-smart folx in ru space. these ended up concluding : 1) 'qntra is paid by putin' 2) 'mp is paid by putin' 3) 'dirty liar, you've never been to usa, but stole the name of a harmless american crackpot' 4) various other lulz, will omit for brevity.
phf: ah didn't see it in the logs, i think that's after i left, saw it accidentally while perusing tiphareth comments
asciilifeform: was memorable laff
phf: i read tiphareth since his lenin.ru anticopyright/end of the world news days, he used to be cool back then, was part of the whole post-punk industrial misanthropic magick thing, he's been turning more and more into a screeching old jew
asciilifeform: ( 'must be kgb colonel' not altogether diff. from e.g. mp's failure of imagination fwiw )
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-29 16:22:45 asciilifeform: was digging for quite different thrd tho, re: how mp thought asciilifeform was a liar when describing being poor
asciilifeform recalls when 'used to be cool'
verisimilitude: Most political activists I like end up in prison, for the murders that is.
asciilifeform: phf: unearthed him again in modern times when found him lamenting decline & fall of linux, and asking for moar or less dulapgentoo
asciilifeform: nao iirc he sits in brazil, mp-like, lamenting 'world went to shit', with 'putler' substituted instead of usg as prime mover
phf: actually i think he's a good example of modern propaganda machine trying to get its tendrils into you, would try one strategy, then another, ultimately "gets". because man became strongly covid dissedent, and while i am too, i couldn't care less, thought that most of his takes are exessive. but see once you bought into the narrative, doesn't matter what side, because you're "in". now he's been on "russia orcs rape ukr babies" 24/7
phf: cicle. "the other shoe dropped" so to speak
asciilifeform does not begrudge, necessarily, yacht dwellers their 'dissidentism', but cannot help but observe that their output -- tiresome, almost always reduces to 'wai is my yacht small, while bezos's large -- ougtha be other way around'
asciilifeform: phf: aha, near as can tell is exactly how it worx. 'meme victims'
verisimilitude: I've a simple method for writing on topics such as covid and the like: ``Every idiot has an opinion on it; I'm thus unlikely to be able to write anything interesting on it; therefore, I'll ignore it.''
verisimilitude: He should've had his meme innoculation earlier in life, then, although those have a habit of sticking around.
asciilifeform: re 'orcs raping' -- ~100% of the anglo-'dissidents' detectably have a cosplay-1950s usg os installed in their skulls, w/ 'anticommunism' flavour and 'if only the other reich won' etc
asciilifeform: often enuff accompanied by a very stereotypical preoccupation with 1900s-style 'eugenics', demonstrative collection of old snoary 'fascist classics' , etc
bitbot: (pest) 2022-05-30 asciilifeform: tried various 'fascist classics', j.evola, etc. -- guaranteed sleep
verisimilitude: What's wrong with eugenics?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: same thing as 'wrong' with davinci's chopper
verisimilitude: Eugenics obviously works.
asciilifeform: by same token davinci's chopper and tank 'work' today
verisimilitude: Eugenics can be as soft as ``No, you retards can't breed.''.
verisimilitude: Singapore does this.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: what remarkable inventions or artistic output from sg ?
verisimilitude: They give lesser women without children money in exchange for sterilization.
phf: "if can breed horses, wai not people." obv solution "no horses for you pleb"
verisimilitude: Oh, right, humans are so special.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: so far only thing anybody's managed to 'breed humans' for were domesticity and disease.
verisimilitude: We agree the world would be better with fewer idiots, so we already agree on this general topic, asciilifeform.
asciilifeform: incidentally precisely as in 'bred' dogs
verisimilitude: Ending the loathsome needn't come on orders from above; it can be decentralized, and usually is.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: fwiw not impressed with 'thoroughbred' humans. historically or presently
verisimilitude: That's the same excuse I see for computers.
phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-09#1105433 << you obviously assigned your own meaning to my sentence in line of yours and asciilifeform's debate, was making the point that humans are not special, but not necessarily along the debate lines.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-09 17:12:54 verisimilitude: Oh, right, humans are so special.
verisimilitude: ``If the Lisp Machine was so good, why is UNIX and Windows everywhere? Checkmate.''
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: to expand, dafuq's the point of 'eugenicizing' per 19th c. state of art, and collecting all the recessive crud like e.g. the orthodox j00z did, when can patch'em properly.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: e.g. tay-sachs
asciilifeform: or the over9000 oddball defects suffered by thoroughbred dogs.
verisimilitude: Yes, I'm aware there's work on gene therapy for that defective minority.
mats: the technological case for eugenics seems to be lacking
asciilifeform: is rather like technological case for davinci's machines.
verisimilitude: The case for ending the genetic lines of idiots, however, is clear.
verisimilitude: Even the most defective and loathsome woman can find a way to reproduce, unfortunately.
mats: as an idiot looking from outside, biotech and life science industry appears to be terribly nascent
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: can agree w/ 'remove the idjits' w/out buying into the notion that there'll be fewer of'em produced later to remove
mats: not really investable
verisimilitude: Well, it's still eugenics.
asciilifeform: mats: iirc in cn they're quietly pushing the state of art, check back there in 20y
verisimilitude: Sure, idiots always find a way to exist.
verisimilitude: ``Make something idiot-proof and nature will create a better idiot.''
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: not simply 'a way'. consider e.g. 'sickle cell' disease.
verisimilitude: We're discussing humans, asciilifeform.
asciilifeform: where having 1 copy is actually adaptive
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: plenty of (mostly undocumented) traits work similarly.
asciilifeform: which is wai they're walking around, rather than vanished over9000y ago
verisimilitude: Still, any small effort would be better than the current dysgenics.
mats: did a black man finger your butthole in early childhood, v-tude
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: check w/ the cn folx, they're, supposedly, trying 'modern chopper' rather than 'davinci' idjit selection
signpost: we doing nazi racial theories again?
verisimilitude: No, we're doing racial theories with national socialist characteristics, signpost.
asciilifeform: this btw simply 1 instance of moar broad anglo'dissent' disease: 'let's dig up all the 1900s shite' without regard to whether any rational engineering basis or empirical win
asciilifeform: likely could find classical phrenologists in there, if looked hard enuff
signpost: seriously, one can hate his contemporaries for good reasons.
signpost: without "JUST LIKE HITLER SAID!"
verisimilitude: Phrenology isn't total quackery.
asciilifeform: signpost: they're digging up 'oldies'
verisimilitude: There's obviously some truth to it.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: apparently not so obv?
verisimilitude: ``This man has a deformed head.''
verisimilitude: ``NOT THAT THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT.''
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: whom've you met w/ deformed heads ?
signpost: how are we going to slice european hybridization with neanderthals?
phf: signpost: on the flip side if conversation ever becomes "oh didn't hitler say that?" then all rational discourse goes out the window e.g. yours and mats contribution so far has been "hitler!" and "black person touch you funny!"
verisimilitude: How am I to answer that, asciilifeform?
asciilifeform: signpost: dun recall, was neanderthal supposed to be 'ubermensch' or the other way around
verisimilitude: Hitler drank water, I hear.
phf: i'm not saying you're bad for it, btw, i'm just saying that somehow everyone got galvanized at the same time to say that verisimilitude is obv bad and wrong
asciilifeform recalls old man adolph's quite mp-like rant re superiority of air-cooled auto engines
mats: is he wrong though?
asciilifeform: mats: imho wrong in the precise way davinci was wrong re how to build chopper.
asciilifeform: except, picture if he lived ~today~ and still drew horse-propelled tanks, choppers, etc
verisimilitude: Yet there are things a horse can do a machine can't, such as usefully follow a dirt path in a war zone.
signpost: phf: mine reads to me like a prompt for him to give higher quality output.
signpost: I've had pretty lengthy threads with the guy that amount to ^
asciilifeform: by all means breed army of ubermenschen. but actually ~do~ it w/ at least present-day state of the art, rather than pretending that can get desired result 'as with dog'
verisimilitude: Mine output is low quality?
asciilifeform: it's wishful thinking 'engineering' that is the problem w/ modern-day 'ubermensch breeders', rather than 'ohnoez hitlers'
verisimilitude: I don't think I'll have the opportunity to do much with this, asciilifeform.
signpost: verisimilitude: yes, you routinely declare something obvious, then skitter onto another topic when someone engages you on the thing not being obvious at all.
phf: signpost: i can only read what verisimilitude says by visiting logs, ftr i don't necessarily dislike the guy (certainly won't put conditionals into my code), he just has this peculiar skill to say infuriating shit while i'm mid conversation with /somebody else/, like exactly what happened right now, which throws my line of thought, and generally derails conversation. which by the way precisely what happened right now.
asciilifeform: 'by proxy' wishful thinking - e.g. pretending that singapour 'did it' -- similar
signpost: obviously there can be all manner of repair and even augmentation to genetics at some point.
verisimilitude: That's fair. I'd rather skulk than skitter.
signpost: phf: mm, please continue with what you were on.
phf: i don't even remember what it was! :D
verisimilitude: I'm laughing.
signpost: ah, well if I may. boobs, or not boobs?
verisimilitude: Rears are better, signpost.
signpost goes to catch up on logs.
asciilifeform recalls ru short story that verisimilitude might like, where 'mengele -- humanitarian', 'i'ma find how to repaint their eyes so they won't need to shoot'em' etc. gotta find & translate at some pt
verisimilitude: I'll certainly read it.
mats: i just want to see a more polished rendition of ol H
asciilifeform: mats: difficult to polish when there aint a 'there' there
phf: i grew up on the culture of "good breeding", can't knock down eugenics, but one doesn't discuss things like that in a polite company.
verisimilitude: This is polite company?
mats: work on the demogoguery and maybe you have a shot at being a state representative and later congressman
phf: but i'll address the more important question
verisimilitude: People have told me that before.
asciilifeform: fwiw mats asciilifeform in fact read afaik complete mr.h, and the 'fascist classics', evola et al, has approx. imho as much 'substance to render' as the contents of 'qanon'
phf: signpost: i like boobs, i'm not ashamed. there's men of taste who have peculiar preferences, and i think maybe ass preference is superior, but it too was ruined by kardashian and media. so in a way my basic taste stood the test of time.
asciilifeform: makes e.g. mp circa '19 look coherent and actionable in comparison.
phf: asciilifeform: there's no way you've read all evola. that's kind of like the sadly apocryphal story of knuth and steve jobs "i've read all your books -- you're full of shit"
asciilifeform: if these folx hadn't picturesquely lost a world war, nobody would read the dross, it'd be collecting dust in same place as worx of trofim lysenko (which asciilifeform also, lol, read...)
asciilifeform: phf: read exactly 1 evola
asciilifeform: was enuff
mats: little v oughta work on his polemic against hispanics
asciilifeform: phf: didja actually eat ~all~ of him ??
mats: its the browns that are most cause for concern to team H
verisimilitude: I could continue on this sexual topic, but it would reveal a deeply unusual nature, so let's not.
phf: asciilifeform: i've read his stuff on yoga and buddhism, and i like his take. he turned out to be a lot more factually acurate and honest in his rendition of e.g. cast system. i powered through his alchemy book, which i thought was fascinating as a kind of very complicated mental construct that does not actually have any substance to it (kind of like mathematics, but not connected to any reality), and i don't think he's to blame for
phf: this, was working with the material. i couldn't power through "ride the tiger" or whatever
asciilifeform started with the alchemy, and stopped
verisimilitude: I'm waiting until my Latin improves before I try to summon demons.
phf: asciilifeform: lol, that's possibly the worst choice. i really don't think evola is to blame, he was mostly documenting western esoteric tradition
asciilifeform: entirely possib
asciilifeform: but the folx reading him nao, 9 outta 10 think 'can learn to summon devils', by all indications
phf: but interestingly enough the book was given to me by probably the most fascinating wasp i've ever met, who was using it for his spiritual guidance, while relying on traditionally wasp "tennis and running" for the physical component.
asciilifeform: ( is, upstack, what was asciilifeform's complaint re the whole subculture, folx indiscriminately digging up 'forbidden' oldies and thinking this'll turn'em into ubermenschen or at least somehow undermine 'regime' )
phf: i lost touch with the guy because he sold his earthly and urban possessions, cached out his investments to buy a giant chunk of farmland "because this is where everything's going" in 2010 or so. at the time i thought he was an idiot, only took me another 10 years to get on his level.
asciilifeform: no obj to digging'em from 'historian' pov. but there aint magic.
asciilifeform: could've bought farm sooner , lol, if not sat reading evola..
phf: i dunno 2010 is probably appropriate time to buy farm
asciilifeform: phf: whole thing imho isomorphic to the '2600 hacker culture'(tm)(r) phf described earlier
asciilifeform: cargo cult
asciilifeform: ( thing is, 'cargo cult' could even be interesting if the tribesmen somehow build ~working~ planes. but unsurprisingly neverhappens , not simply because 'haven't with-what' but because working in broken model entirely )
asciilifeform: observe that they dun build working gliders either
phf: i can kind of see that, but on the other hand this goes back to my conversations with signpost. i can't fault people for trying to find meaning, particularly if it is outside of "my funkopop collection will soon be complete"
asciilifeform 'can't fault' folx for drinking to death, either
asciilifeform: is moar or less inevitable reaction for some to 'dead end'
signpost certainly continues to grunt meaning out of his favorite germans.
asciilifeform: by all means
signpost: heidegger was even a proper nazi.
asciilifeform: some directions for 'find meaning' imho lead to moar interesting, however, places than others.
phf: asciilifeform: not how i meant it. it's a rhetorical can't fault. you know there's a thing, and i don't remember correct term, but it's basically "library core" or something like that, where zoomers dress and act like harry potter characters, have books and stuff, but don't actually read them, just sort of photo op. there's a cargo cult
asciilifeform: ( e.g. where chance to do sumthing actually new, rather than replay -- on the cheap -- 100y ago dead end )
phf: and i can't fault because the only guy i know who genuinely read and practiced an entire evola book (the wasp in question), was definitely living his life to a larger potential
asciilifeform: phf: the 1s asciilifeform encountered, in fact read the b00x, can quote 'chapter & verse' for all the diff it makes
asciilifeform: phf: rright but which way arrow of causation?
asciilifeform: i.e. did he 'larger potential' because read it, or was already 'sleeping ad libitum' and unencumbered with work, and had time to evola.
phf: asciilifeform: mu :p
phf gtg, have dinner plans
asciilifeform similarly must bbl
verisimilitude: Thanks for reminding me about those idiots, phf.
verisimilitude: The worst thing about Tumblr is how its death spread those idiots around.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-09#1105412 << before this slips into the sands : the cool one sit; but then ~get out~. e.g. stalin.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-09 17:01:06 verisimilitude: Most political activists I like end up in prison, for the murders that is.
asciilifeform: can respect e.g. gavrilo princip. but going in is only half the job.
punkman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-09#1105392 << I enjoyed spandrell's older posts. lots of chinese tales and history
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-06-09 16:48:11 asciilifeform: finds the spandrells, moldbugs, etc. just as tiresomely morose as the reich goebbelses they are nominally 'in opposition' to
asciilifeform: punkman: i defo recall 2-3 nifty cn-themed pieces
asciilifeform: punkman: imho he went 'up own arse' yrs ago, however
phf: "old posts" seem like a common denominator in all these conversations