punkman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-17#1046279 << I think it's more likely they stop enforcing 21million limit than segwit
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-17 17:15:43 whaack: the day of reckoning can come when miners stop enforcing the segwit rule and loads of "bitcoin" users have their coins wiped out from under their feet
punkman: btw you can even wrap segwit tx in "normal" P2SH tx
punkman: "the LiteCoin ($36) founder sold 100% of his coins as it ran up to $300 while wearing a HODL shirt for video interviews. And he was also wash trading nearly 100% of the GDAX volume in LTC trading pairs for months after it listed and while he was an employee of Coinbase/GDAX."
punkman wonders how much sense does it make to hypothesize about "future segwit fork" when this has already happened and it's called "Bitcoin Cash"
punkman: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/22329 "bitcoind uses 24GB of memory despite configuration" "Everything in the wallet is currently loaded into memory, so if your wallet file is large, so will the RAM usage for that wallet. There is some long term and ongoing work to load things on demand, but there is no expected time for when that might
punkman: be complete.
punkman: such progress
billymg: punkman: my understanding is that because segwit was implemented via "soft fork" defecting and refusing to enforce it would not result in a hard fork of the network (new coin). though i don't doubt that the "community" would at least attempt to fork to restore the coins, but they'd be the ones forking then, not the defecting miners
billymg: whereas not enforcing the 21M limit would immediately result in a hard fork
whaack: if anyone here has a query they want to run on trbexplorer that the interface does not provide, please inform me and i'll make it available if it seems right
whaack: !e help
trbexplorer: whaack: my valid commands are: src, uptime, version, help, view-address, view-merkle-root, view-block, verify-all, view-txn, height, push, view-raw-txn, verify-block, view-raw-block, utxos, balance
whaack: i would like to expose the sql schema and provide a way to run raw sql commands, does anyone know if there's a way, using python's sqlite3 module, to restrict commands to READ permission?
whaack: punkman: billymg is right. Atm some people have added a new rule (segwit) to bitcoin that trb and actual bitcoin users have no obligation to enforce. As asciilifeform once said beautifully, ~ "they are like the people in India who ride ontop of a train. They are "on the train" for as long as the train does not pass through a tunnel.
whaack: asciilifeform: apologies if that's a misquote, but i recall reading you write something like that somewhere in the log
whaack: punkman: The bar for swooping the coins is low. The miners just have to...run trb. And afaik no one's node is going to stop (not even prb's, seeing as they don't seem to validate anything anyways). Segwit users are just going to see their balances go to zero as the 'anyone can spend' coins are moved to addresses where you need to provide a signature to spend the coins.
whaack: I've spoken to some segwit people on this and they seem to think that this cataclysmic event is the end of bitcoin since a majority of exchanges are using segwit and bech32 etc. But I don't think that's the case anymore than Mtgox was the end of bitcoin.
whaack: !e height
whaack: !e view-transaction 690611 0
trbexplorer: whaack: my valid commands are: src, uptime, version, help, view-address, view-merkle-root, view-block, verify-all, view-txn, height, push, view-raw-txn, verify-block, view-raw-block, utxos, balance
whaack: !e view-txn 690611 0
whaack: odd, miner sends 3 outputs to 0 satoshi data txns
whaack: !e view-txn 690611 1
trbexplorer: TXN OVERVIEW
trbexplorer: txn_hash: b9c2374e8b3ee55b770689a729a54336d77f766848cb46ea71e8a053e3196983
trbexplorer: block_height: 690611
trbexplorer: txn_index: 1
trbexplorer: size: 114
trbexplorer: txn_hash: fafc912fd71accec857f7e365e1737c38957e1a41bb3e7c3a98fec832ec65ca8
trbexplorer: out_index: 1
trbexplorer: value_sats: 15128979
trbexplorer: address: 87cbd83d1431730d628a1b25577faf8e1ea33f900114a9
trbexplorer: value_sats: 2943880
trbexplorer: address: 7106379bb6c60edd732e2b2618f58a85152646831400
trbexplorer: value_sats: 12155417
whaack: So this transaciton uses as an input some sorta segwit bs, i guess, since the scriptsig is empty
whaack: let's look at the output it consumes
whaack: or rather the txn that contains the output it consumes
whaack: !e view-txn fafc912fd71accec857f7e365e1737c38957e1a41bb3e7c3a98fec832ec65ca8
trbexplorer: TXN OVERVIEW
trbexplorer: txn_hash: fafc912fd71accec857f7e365e1737c38957e1a41bb3e7c3a98fec832ec65ca8
trbexplorer: block_height: 690608
trbexplorer: txn_index: 34
trbexplorer: size: 116
trbexplorer: txn_hash: a23cc8d1914598ffeddd1bdc9cb363bd173f11a9fdc9faf98ac187842b6c4c7e
trbexplorer: out_index: 1
trbexplorer: value_sats: 15832068
trbexplorer: address: 1ELNmEVRtQHijqykGsAaZVAGQ7Wik2eifY
trbexplorer: value_sats: 673407
trbexplorer: address: 1a3f537545d72550325df2c4114ba25fd3c8d88f1400
trbexplorer: value_sats: 15128979
mats: did we see the same p2sh chart? there's 5.6mn btc up for grabs
mats: some % of miners defecting and taking a % of that loot could be an extinction event
whaack: mats: If using bitcoin extinguishes bicoin then it's already dead in the water
mats: for comparison, makerdao in 2016 had about 15% of all ether, and iirc the attacker drained like 4mn of about ~80mn ether before the fork
whaack: So the segwit users hard fork, then bitcoin users again get free options, they sell on the segwit hardfork and buyback on the bitcoin network as explained here http://qntra.net/2015/01/the-hard-fork-missile-crisis/
whaack: !e view-raw-txn -paste fafc912fd71accec857f7e365e1737c38957e1a41bb3e7c3a98fec832ec65ca8
mats: i lived through those events too, this isn't similar, it strikes at the fundamental viability of bitcoins
mats: this is the genius of the power rangers work
mats: like it or not, ~30% of the monetary supply is vulnerable
mats: (probably more, since a couple million coins might be lost)
whaack: mats: indeed it is a well crafted evil poison slipped into bitcoin
billymg: mats: in that case i guess we're all just waiting around for an "authorized" use of anyone-can-spend. i.e. "ransomware hacker" parks coins in a segwit address, UN orders miners to move them over to a UN address, the prb community cheers because it's authorized, and for "justice"
billymg: in which case bitcoin is already subverted
billymg: honestly i'd rather "kill bitcoin" if it means forking into a real bitcoin and a UN bitcoin
mats: lol, UN bitcoin
whaack: PLUS, the evil idiots who created this scam in the first place may be already trying to steal the coins they convinced people to put in anyone-can-spend addresses
mats: if public reports about distribution of hash among nations are any good, that's very unlikely
whaack: so no doubt the right move is to attack it, question is how to split the rewards with the miner, 50/50?
mats: in order, its cn, us, kz, ru, ir
whaack: maybe 98% miner and 2% for yourself, i'm happy with 2% of 5mil+ coin
mats: 3/5 of those players don't want anything to do with the rules based us-led intl order, and are actively working to subvert it
mats: beijing most of all desires a return to a multipolar world, with room to move and without having to be accountable to anyone but the party
mats: in a showdown between trbcoin and segwitcoin, trb loses
billymg: mats: how? if they keep running segwit coin then the miners can keep draining their addresses
billymg: however many times they fork to refill 'em
billymg: unless they add in some "authorized miners only" in which case even the mouthbreathing users will realize that segwit coin is centralized coin
whaack: on a technical level trb has a massive advantage
mats: the miners that inappropriately spend segwit coin see their transactions unwound, and if they can't cooperate to do that, maybe that's the end of btc
mats: illiquidity induces fear like nothing else
whaack: mats: That's not the end of btc, the miners have the right to unwind the transactions if they're willing to pay to do so
whaack: as unideal as that is
whaack: so they spend a lot to unwind the 'unauthorized' segwit txn, things go back to the current status quo, and the 'attack vector' remains
billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046423 << also, if this is true (i hope it is) then the coin that wins is the one that *isn't* susceptible to political pressure
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 14:46:38 mats: 3/5 of those players don't want anything to do with the rules based us-led intl order, and are actively working to subvert it
billymg: why would any country want the presence of an anyone-can-spend loophole unless they're the only nation that can exploit it
whaack brb, food
shinohai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046406 <<< This was always my understanding, both from linked Qntra and reading asciilifeform 's http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1009
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 14:28:09 whaack: So the segwit users hard fork, then bitcoin users again get free options, they sell on the segwit hardfork and buyback on the bitcoin network as explained here http://qntra.net/2015/01/the-hard-fork-missile-crisis/
whaack: shinohai: how does asciilifeform's piece relate?
whaack: if anything the 'kill switch' is now the 5mil coins held in anyone can spend
whaack: that's 5 mil coins to a miner or group of miners who have 51% of the network
shinohai: whaack: I was referring specifically to http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1009#selection-231.0-235.282
whaack: shinohai: I admit I still don't follow, but it's okay if you don't want to take the time to spell it out.
signpost: this idea that trb has some kind of strategic advantage is complete nonsense.
signpost: as mats says, draining the segwitcoins would extinguish bitcoin, and some other network would take its place.
signpost: this isn't happening in a vacuum, and saint mp of lost causes is not watching over trb.
signpost: it's a piece of shoddy trash we never got finished decrufting.
whaack: signpost: so trb users are beholden to all new rules i.e. softforks that prb imposes?
signpost: no, they can fork off into a network of their own, pretending that trbcoin is a unit of account in their imaginary economy, I suppose
signpost: contrary to the teachings of mp, declaring victory is not all that is required.
whaack: my point in saying that trb has a 'massive technical advantage' is that if segwit coins get drained, trb still has an accounting system, whereas segwit users do not
signpost: so what?
whaack: so for the 98% of the world not involved in bitcoin, but have heard the term, trb users have a product to sell and segwit users do not
whaack: segwit users will say 'bitcoin is broken! it was hacked!' and trb users will say 'nah, just download this client'
whaack: i admit that the infrastructure of a huge number of wallets and exchanges collapsing does not bode well
signpost: that is utter nonsense. "bitcoin failed." is what will happen in that scenario.
signpost: if you want the economic phenomenon called bitcoin to proceed, you'd better hope the segwit piggy is *not* cracked open.
signpost: to give mp a small amount of credit, why do you suppose he chose "the darkening" to refer to this era?
signpost: it is quite likely from where I sit that what comes next is a chinese-style totalitarian "smart contract" system, much like while peripheral nerds can use p2p warez networks just like they did in the old days, the *economic phenomenon* of mp3/rar/etc was crushed.
signpost: and we'll recall the old days of real p2p.
whaack: i admit that the thought that bitcoin depends on the miner's continuing to enforce the softfork of segwit is so daunting that i may just have trouble swallowing that idea
signpost: if you don't want that, quite a lot of work to be done.
signpost: it sucks, eh? I agree.
signpost: there's something rotten in the soul of man that desires enslavement.
signpost: (this btw is perhaps the clearest statement of my disagreement with mp. he didn't see this as a bug)
whaack: no hope, i guess, of getting a mass movement off of segwit - i.e. convincing all the well meanining bitcoiners without the werewithal to see the dangers of segwit to move their coins to a safe address while the current mining cartel is enforcing the new rule
signpost: consider what otehr "mass movements" there'd be if this were possible.
signpost does not btw consider his own life hopeless in the slightest because of this.
billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046469 << good point, a large percentage of holders can't even be bothered to take their coins off coinbase
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 16:41:52 signpost: consider what otehr "mass movements" there'd be if this were possible.
whaack: the problem i guess is that when an exchange goes down and their customers lose their coins the customers know they are responsible
whaack: whereas those losing their coins in a segwit swoop may be self-righteous about 'having done their due diligence' or something
signpost: spoken as broadly as possible, "mass awakening" has been anticipated long enough.
signpost: "hope" is in the direction of connecting the graph of thinking men, however big or small it may be.
billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046459 << would you see the result of this being a freedom btc trading in the triple digits? because while it would sting, might not be the end of the world
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 16:34:29 signpost: if you want the economic phenomenon called bitcoin to proceed, you'd better hope the segwit piggy is *not* cracked open.
punkman: signpost gets it
punkman: there are in fact no "anyone can spend" coins right now
punkman: if you do this, you are making anothe Bitcoin Cash
punkman: and we can see how that played out
punkman: (or Bitcoin ABC, Bitcoin SV and I dunno what else)
signpost: billymg: what'd distinguish this coin next to any of the others of ^
punkman: at best, I can see a future fork that deprecates segwit or whatever "innovation" the power rangers come up with
punkman: but that would require the segwit coins to be moved back to normal addresses
punkman: which is doable
billymg: punkman: you may be right that this is how it would be perceived at a social level (i.e. buterin eth is ETH while real ETH is ETC), but on a technical level spending the anyone can spend coins is not something that would cause a fork, no?
signpost: which brings the thing back to "why this particular one", and the reason can't be "*this* one sanctified by some larping on the internet one time"
punkman: real ETH is buterin ETH, there is no question about this
billymg: i mean, it might trigger some people to fork in order to reverse the transactions (i'm sure it would)
signpost: the social level is the foundation, not the tech.
signpost: tech flows out of culture, which is the graph of people doing whichever peculiar thing.
billymg: signpost: true, social and capital levels are the foundation, not the tech
signpost: press instead in the direction of facilitating sane culture on the nets, however small, imho.
billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046486 << in theory might be the coin preferred by >> http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046477
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 16:55:58 signpost: billymg: what'd distinguish this coin next to any of the others of ^
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 16:49:56 signpost: "hope" is in the direction of connecting the graph of thinking men, however big or small it may be.
signpost: (which includes yes, pointing out every flaw in prb, but knowing the flaws doesn't mass the army to kill it)
signpost: billymg: I think I just answered you with ^
signpost: (on that point as well)
billymg: signpost: as in, at the moment would be no more than suicide mission?
signpost: neh, no one would care to kill ya.
billymg: i meant suicide for bitcoin, the economic phenomenon (if segwit piggy broken)
signpost: I'll just say it serves nothing I wish to see occur.
billymg: i interpreted your point as: first amass army and culture (however many centuries that takes), then strike
signpost: if it takes centuries, high-tech totalitarianism wins until we have garage-fabbed spacecraft.
mats: won't take that long, just some people on venus or mars with sustainable ag would be enough
punkman: garage-fabbed bio weapons is when things get interesting
mats: distance/time is enough for sovereignty, like the 13 colonies
signpost: punkman: I figure that one's not so easy to aim.
punkman: easier than garage spaceship
signpost: granted to both mats and punkman
punkman: fairly certain I'm gonna see garace-covid in my lifetime
signpost wants the decentralized wot, decentralized comms network, cryptographic control of what information leaks from my relationships
signpost: and *perhaps* on top of that, a cryptocurrency, although with a strong wot, it really starts to matter less.
signpost operated the wallet perfectly, challenges anyone to say otherwise.
punkman: "stage n, bitcoin exists" or what was it
signpost: 100% agree garage-covid is coming.
signpost: also will be interesting to see the evolutionary effect of the mrna vaccine "pulling of the stick"
whaack: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046482 < The difference is trb users have funds on both segwit-coin and trb, while segwit users have funds on only 1 of the 2 forks
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 16:54:24 punkman: if you do this, you are making anothe Bitcoin Cash
signpost reminds whaack of mp's "from cause, not towards purpose", which is perhaps one of the wisest framings signpost encountered.
signpost: one can't just imagine the trb network whole, big enough to dump enough prbcoin to make trbcoin rise.
signpost: how. by what causes.
punkman: and we can even find examples of people that dumped their prbcoin to keep their real-bitcoin, but now they only have real-bitcoin-cash, and not real-bitcoin
billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046513 << i don't see how anyone could argue, but without first fixing the critical bug it won't last long, regardless of planet or galaxy or whatever
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 17:05:08 mats: distance/time is enough for sovereignty, like the 13 colonies
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 16:37:39 signpost: there's something rotten in the soul of man that desires enslavement.
signpost sees it growing out of the terror of death.
mats: bitcoin won't work further than luna anyway
signpost: one can find me prattling about the atomic self being the bug in the logs.
mats: centralisation is on a continuum, necessary for basic activities like meeting and making markets
punkman: hanbot is possible only person with enough bitcoin to bootstrap a trb-coin
signpost: perhaps, if prior measures weren't $numberOfSharesOnMpex * $exchRate
whaack: punkman: with that argument satoshi helping is a possibility as well
punkman: will be a fun time when satoshi funds move
signpost: punkman: not that hanbot pronouncing "All will love me and despair!" wouldn't entertain me greatly.
signpost: go get it, girl.
punkman: my suspicion is that satoshi fund never moves, since none of it has moved until now
punkman: even Kleiman and Craig's stash might be lost forever
mats: the anime 'eden of the east' is a fun dramatization of a satoshi airdropping 8bn yen (~75mn usd) in digital currency to 12 randos and telling them to change nippon
mats: if hanbot is reading, please to return jurov's money, some of us still want to fight you know
punkman: I was looking at mining hardware and calculators today. ROI seems very reasonable if you can get free (or almost free) electricity.
whaack: lol "get free" i.e. steal?
punkman: whaack: sure that's one way to go about it
punkman: find place that's not gonna notice extra 2-3kw, gets you like $30/day at current prices
punkman: you need to not lose/burn machine in less than 4-5 months, and you are golden
punkman: there's a good amount of idle PV installations around here, could definitely lease cheap
punkman: (they got big subsidies to build, hoping they'd sell energy back to power company, but power company figured out it was uneconomical to connect all these small installations to the grid. so they sit
punkman: I have an invitation to invest in PV coop. They say they can build 1mw installations for 600k EUR, bank will loan 480k, 120k from investors. They want to do 100 x 1mw and then do substations that connect back to grid.
punkman: marketing materials claiming 20-30% return per year. which makes me suspicious.
punkman: even more suspicious, each member of coop gets one vote, no matter how many shares they hold. and maximum of 400k total investment per member. which I'm 99% sure means they want to fill coop with local goatfuckers and embezzle as much as they can
punkman: I've sent list of questions to contact, but I expect "you are uninvited" instead of any serious answers
mats: its a great time to borrow fiat imo
punkman: yeah if you can get it
mats: borrowing against btc is still a shit deal, very capital inefficient
whaack: so, pondering this discussion, I guess trb users are now the ones hijacking onto the prb network, using the larger prb network in perhaps a smarter way. My previous idea was that prb users were hijacking onto the trb network
punkman: guy I know is borrowing 1mil for building in central EU, almost 0% downpayment, gonna rent to poor people on welfare. All that money and work, and he expects to make about 800-1000 eur per month (after loan payments, maintenance).
mats: gotta overcollaterize 100-150%, interest rates are like 8-10
whaack: or in other words, trb used to be the host, prb the virus, now prb is the host, trb the virus
whaack: and now trb is in the unfortunate position where it cannot kill its host
whaack: unless we have a doctor, farmer, tailor, architect, etc. all lurking in this channel
punkman: what's doctor farmer gonna do
whaack: point was that trb needs to be a big enough economy on its own to be self sustaining
punkman: whaack, you mean tmsr2:electric boogaloo needs big enough economy
whaack: more or less
whaack: btw, does anyone in channel run a full prb node with all the segwit data included? thimbronion?
signpost: yes, lemme see if it's still up.
signpost: nvm, trashed it
punkman: bitcoins cash sitting around 1-2 exahash, not bad
punkman: 100 exa on prb
whaack: i guess it would be quite a time consuming project in and of itself to verify that that prb full node *actually* contains all the sigs
punkman: read thread saying prb never added any new checkpoints past 2014
whaack will bbl, or tomorrow, cheers
punkman: I wonder if that means prb is actually verifying everything past last checkpoint
punkman: https://hashrateindex.com/reviews/steve-barbour-s9 oilrig miner guy says "even today, over four years since its release, we are still exclusively using S9s when much more efficient hardware is available on the market"
punkman: quite interesting
punkman: https://www.chia.net/ Bram Cohen (bittorrent guy) finally launched his thing. Mining rigs are pile of HDDs, so when you stop mining, you still got pile of HDDs.
mats: this destroys disks tho
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046337 << for some values of 'they', already many times 'stopped', neh.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 02:11:36 punkman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-17#1046279 << I think it's more likely they stop enforcing 21million limit than segwit
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046341 << shitcoin perpetrators are guilty until proven innocent (lol--proven how?) of this and more.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 02:47:50 punkman: "the LiteCoin ($36) founder sold 100% of his coins as it ran up to $300 while wearing a HODL shirt for video interviews. And he was also wash trading nearly 100% of the GDAX volume in LTC trading pairs for months after it listed and while he was an employee of Coinbase/GDAX."
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046343 << moar than one, even (i recall sumthing-or-other 'gold' etc)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 03:50:03 punkman: wonders how much sense does it make to hypothesize about "future segwit fork" when this has already happened and it's called "Bitcoin Cash"
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046348 << this is correct, or at least was last i bothered to look inside prb (0.10? iirc)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 10:39:24 billymg: punkman: my understanding is that because segwit was implemented via "soft fork" defecting and refusing to enforce it would not result in a hard fork of the network (new coin). though i don't doubt that the "community" would at least attempt to fork to restore the coins, but they'd be the ones forking then, not the defecting miners
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046402 << pretty sure we had at least one 'what does it mean to ask whether bitcoin still works?' thread, and not long ago
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 14:17:39 mats: some % of miners defecting and taking a % of that loot could be an extinction event
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-12-17 16:37:18 asciilifeform: re upstack , imho important q for any participant to answer ~for himself~, 'does bitcoin work? what does it mean for it to work?' (see also e.g.)
asciilifeform: for instance asciilifeform strongly suspects that what for mats would be 'extinct', for asciilifeform would be a beautiful dream. e.g. $1 btc for next 10y.
asciilifeform: 'Что русскому здорово, то немцу смерть!'(tm)(r)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 14:23:07 whaack: mats: If using bitcoin extinguishes bicoin then it's already dead in the water
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-12-17 19:02:50 asciilifeform: billymg: if it at any point even makes sense to discuss 'the fed of bitcoin' -- in any other light than you might discuss 'a 2 that is also a 3' -- the algo was broken. (and was always broken, then.)
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046409 << again with the 'viability', as if it were objective ?
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 14:31:54 mats: i lived through those events too, this isn't similar, it strikes at the fundamental viability of bitcoins
asciilifeform: per asciilifeform , for instance, the way it is nao, encrusted with speculator barnacles liquidating at the drop of a hat, is not at all 'viable'.
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-05-05 19:59:44 asciilifeform: as a rule, they're entirely happy to buy promisecoin, so can 'leverage' and 'play'.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-11 15:09:36 asciilifeform: actual commerce, i.e. the kind where you MAKE things, sell'em, do actual services for people, it is -- punished -- by the volatility
signpost: lemme rephrase then.
asciilifeform still eating log, but no reason why to wait
signpost: it may be the case already that bitcoin cannot exist without destroying the state, but if not, the liquidation of the segwit stash would make that the case.
signpost: may or may not be mats' view.
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-12-16 22:06:03 asciilifeform: upstack, stratagem 'shoot erryone who so much as mentioned bitcoin' was 'the spoon is good at dinner time', i.e. was the 'thing to do' 7y ago. before the oligarchs bought in. (these generally do not appreciate attempts to make their holdings worthless)
asciilifeform: (i.e. is actually well-integrated, as happens, with the reich, oddly enuff )
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046422 << 'dividing the skin of the bear while it's still alive'(tm). (go, generate the tx, see if gets mined? why not)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 14:46:06 whaack: maybe 98% miner and 2% for yourself, i'm happy with 2% of 5mil+ coin
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046425 << the 1st (and afaik only) such 'showdown' was in '17, when mp contracted asciilifeform to liquidate coupla thou phorqcoins. (did not have the spectacular effect he expected on exch rate, it took coupla hundred similar people doing same thing to 'tank' it)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 14:49:55 mats: in a showdown between trbcoin and segwitcoin, trb loses
asciilifeform: somehow trb (if you will -- trb is evidently not the only trb-compat. client in use worldwide, tho who and with what else, remains mystery) 'not lost'.
punkman: trb has nothing to lose in first place
asciilifeform: was about to get to this, lol
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046430 << this oughta be direct q for mats : what aspects of current-day bitcoin are you 'married' to, in such a way that their demolition would be from your pov 'the end of' it ?
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 14:55:00 mats: the miners that inappropriately spend segwit coin see their transactions unwound, and if they can't cooperate to do that, maybe that's the end of btc
asciilifeform: is it the log10(btc-usd) ? if loses zero, 'the end' ? 2 ? 3 ? 4 zeros ?
asciilifeform: or which is it.
signpost: if I can't buy anothing of significant value with the thing, what's it doing for me?
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046431 << let all those in whom fear is induceable, get the fuck out.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 14:57:20 mats: illiquidity induces fear like nothing else
signpost: damned mac keyboard is falling apart.
asciilifeform: signpost: depends what 'anything'. asciilifeform for instance will continue to offer hosting. (and if opens yet another shop, ditto there)
asciilifeform: ... offer strictly for proper, classical btc.
asciilifeform: and if it has to be cpu-mined on 20 old pentiums, then fuck, let it. like in the 'pizza' days.
asciilifeform: it scales down to that, handily. imho was best at ~that~ scale, in fact. i.e. minus all the speculators, 'whales', misc. scum.
mats: being upset with speculators makes about as much sense as being upset with buyers
asciilifeform: mats: it aint about the flies, but about the shit that attracts'em.
mats: or that water is wet
signpost does not see the value of a network that can at best move around some subset of $21mil USD
asciilifeform: mno, it aint 'he complains that water is wet', it's 'the pipe is gushing geiser of liquishit'
asciilifeform: signpost: evidently the early btc users disagreed. saw.
asciilifeform: 'what good is a baby?'(faraday)
mats: if btcusd goes from $32,000 to $320, its dead, yeah
asciilifeform: mats: care to expand ? or simply saying it's dead to mats
asciilifeform: or alleging that asciilifeform will not be able to transact ? ( why not ? )
mats: money relies on network effects, why would i want to use a deeply illiquid shitcoin?
signpost: if it cycles between bubbles and busts forever, it's never getting out of being denominated by USD (or CNY, or whichever govt shitcoin)
asciilifeform: or because for mats , the whole point of bitcoin is 'elevator to moon', and if it aint going to moon at the rate you like, then 'dead' and let's use some shitcoin with permissioned mining ? is that it ?
signpost: which'd suggest to me that it's not the weapon satoshi tried to build.
signpost: asciilifeform: no, meant to wrestle currency free of govt.
asciilifeform: it aint clear to asciilifeform that shitoshi had any kinda plan or intelligent thought re 'ultimates'
asciilifeform: whole thing consists solidly of happenstance, like a dog shit
mats: the whitepaper is clear
asciilifeform: clear about what ?
mats: usd is being mismanaged, he proposed a solution
mats: ok, not the paper, but his forum posts
mats: and the genesis block
asciilifeform: mats: not disputing that 'claimed solution'. but the proggy as it actually was written, nor the algo (where entirely failed to foresee centralization of mining) does not suggest elaborate planning
punkman: when was first pool?
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046441 << it doesn't, lol, near as i can tell
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 15:42:25 whaack: shinohai: how does asciilifeform's piece relate?
asciilifeform: punkman: good q. i recall already existing pools in '11
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046447 << possibly worth to think about why 'some other network' not already 'taken its place'
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 16:24:47 signpost: as mats says, draining the segwitcoins would extinguish bitcoin, and some other network would take its place.
signpost: plenty of discussions in the past about satoshi potentially having an off-switch for bitcoin.
signpost: why then would 5mil BTC suddenly in one hand not be another off-switch?
asciilifeform: signpost: imho not off switch, but rather final exam.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046457 << asciilifeform aint trolling when says that he would prefer that ALL Official exchanges were to die and not come back in any form whatsoever.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 16:33:18 whaack: i admit that the infrastructure of a huge number of wallets and exchanges collapsing does not bode well
asciilifeform: ideally bitcoin would be something you can only get in-wot, at all.
asciilifeform has already treated it as this, from beginning
punkman: pools being centralized, is not same as mining rig installations being centralized. seems to me there's big variety of people owning mining installations.
asciilifeform: punkman: and all made at 1 (2?) fab
asciilifeform: that's where centralized.
asciilifeform: there's literally no industry on planet3 moar centralized than bleeding edge si fabbing
asciilifeform: not even orbital launch
punkman: seems main players are Bitmain, Whatsminer and Avalon
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046458 << the reason bitcoin 'returns to life' erry time it 'dies' , is imho this. it's the only 'built before the money morons stormed in' item, and this aint changeable.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 16:33:27 signpost: that is utter nonsense. "bitcoin failed." is what will happen in that scenario.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-10 20:07:12 trinque: that there is a buterin in the social system called ethereum
asciilifeform: punkman: afaik there's exactly 1 player: tmsc.
asciilifeform: i.e. if you want to thermonuke 'bitmain', 'whatsminer', 'avalon', in terms of hash %, you will need to build a new tmsc.
asciilifeform: (and a pyongyang to do it in)
mats: in tsmc news, the planned onshore us 5nm fab is being upsized 5x
signpost: asciilifeform: re: there being no buterin in btc, if somebody controlled 5mil BTC, they'd be btcuterin
asciilifeform: signpost: until his bluff is called
billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046643 << ok, just to work out the details of this scenario. if this happened, in a hypothetical segwitocalypse fork, there would still be a 21M cap on freedom bitcoin, no? and freedom bitcoin holders wouldn't necessarily be any poorer right out of the gate either, as they have coins on both chains now...
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 20:16:18 mats: if btcusd goes from $32,000 to $320, its dead, yeah
shinohai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046660 <<< perhaps I misunderstood the context but wtf ever, rather tired of the btc wars.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 20:21:00 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046441 << it doesn't, lol, near as i can tell
asciilifeform: billymg: forkwar aint the only way to 'tank' exch rate
signpost: maybe we get to find out. these are just the skryings of my butt.
asciilifeform: signpost: my contention aint that 'go to sleep, be happy' , but that what to some is 'bitcoin is dead!' to others is 'finally alive'
mats: whats the difference between this and atc, i don't get it
signpost: this is indisputable, sure.
mats: why aren't you using atc?
asciilifeform: for it to be properly dead, would need a) fatal break in ecdsa b) there is no (b)
asciilifeform: mats: because it wasn't first.
asciilifeform: mats: do you understand what decentralization means ?
billymg: asciilifeform: i guess even so, if exchange rate tanks, and 21M limit stays intact, and printolade continues to be printed (because of course it will be), then number eventually goes up again
asciilifeform: billymg: as it always has previously. because there aint actually an alternative. (only buncha scamola-shitcoins, i.e. get-rich schemes centrally managed by ~someone~ in all cases)
billymg would swallow pride and work for SV company again just to get the opportunity to buy cheap coins again
mats: is the network more or less centralized when the price and hash presumably fall two magnitudes?
asciilifeform: actually i can think of a 'b', i.e. a way for bitcoin to die. if the proverbial 'provable satoshi' were to show, and start exerting 'autoritas' etc
asciilifeform: mats: never falls for long.
mats: hope i live long enough to see the outcome
asciilifeform still trying to figure out what prompted this thread; doesn't look like anyone's invented 'the bomb' quite yet
asciilifeform: or even demonstrated that it could exist.
punkman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046708 << perhaps me saying segwit fork already happened
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 20:35:42 asciilifeform: still trying to figure out what prompted this thread; doesn't look like anyone's invented 'the bomb' quite yet
asciilifeform: punkman: was speaking of the hypothetical 'segwit lift'
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046501 << to the extent there's even a 'battle' between 'trb' compat. and prbism , as such -- so far front has not moved an inch -- asciilifeform is still 100% able to send and receive traditional bitcoin. may be worth asking why this is so.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 16:59:23 signpost: (which includes yes, pointing out every flaw in prb, but knowing the flaws doesn't mass the army to kill it)
asciilifeform: ( why 'powerrangers' not succeeded in actually breaking the protocol ? it surely was not from lack of wanting to. or from lack of pile of usd with which to try. or lack of support from reich. why so far failed ? )
asciilifeform: before anyone lolasks, wasn't 'mp's seekrit magick' either.
signpost: entirely not the point.
signpost is not interested in an item that cannot become relevant at a civilizational scale.
asciilifeform: signpost: i suspect i may be missing the point ?
signpost: I'm not ftr convinced it cannot.
asciilifeform: signpost: is e.g. superconductor 'relevant at civilizational scale' ?
asciilifeform: ( do you have one at home ? know anyone who does ? )
signpost: that you do not care about the social systems around currencies is fine.
signpost: but it is not the only view.
asciilifeform: signpost: there's , i suspect, >1 view
signpost: for sure, no harm there
asciilifeform: folx do tend to dwell on 1 particular pov. and, seems to asciilifeform , normally depends on where they stand on the ladder
asciilifeform: (e.g. 'pile of btc' deforms psyche in different way than... but i digress )
thimbronion: whaack: I do
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046512 << the 'bang' of bioweapons is greatly exaggerated historically. 'unit 731' has ~0 impact on the war. worth to read about why.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 17:05:03 punkman: garage-fabbed bio weapons is when things get interesting
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046518 << asciilifeform has been grinding out a spec for third wk nao. maybe 1/2 done at this pt. (had to, several times, throw away large chunks of algo, when chalkboard demonstrated that it was dud)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 17:06:32 signpost: wants the decentralized wot, decentralized comms network, cryptographic control of what information leaks from my relationships
punkman: I like the "bitcoin is cybercountry" view
punkman: more than "cryptocurrency"
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046537 << the historical silk road made do with local (temporally and spatially) centers.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 17:14:47 mats: centralisation is on a continuum, necessary for basic activities like meeting and making markets
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046538 << 'hey, i know what we were missing: a dowager empress' said afaik nobody anywhere
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 17:15:09 punkman: hanbot is possible only person with enough bitcoin to bootstrap a trb-coin
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046547 << outta curiosity, for what need money to fight ? depending on what means 'to fight', some of these things e.g. asciilifeform did and does just find w/out money
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 17:24:45 mats: if hanbot is reading, please to return jurov's money, some of us still want to fight you know
asciilifeform: *just fine
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046551 << 2kW/24h costs ~4$ here, so no need to steal it, can simply host in asciilifeform's dc
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 17:31:45 punkman: find place that's not gonna notice extra 2-3kw, gets you like $30/day at current prices
asciilifeform: tho still strikes asciilifeform as vehehery slim profit, considering the cost of the machine
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046559 << only if you have income denominated in something else, neh ? the debt doesn't get easier to repay, otherwise, simply because e.g. usd is 'sinking'
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 17:58:46 mats: its a great time to borrow fiat imo
punkman: asciilifeform: sourcing machines, possibly importing/exporting is certainly the harder part. finding cheap power is easy
asciilifeform: punkman: aha, is always the asics that is the controlled/monopolized part, not the mains current
punkman: apparently you can mine with used, 4-year-old-generation machines, the supply of these could be way more predictable than expecting bitmain to ship latest-gen on time
punkman: oilrig machines, also free power
asciilifeform: punkman: a machine that you ~can get~, is by this token vastly superior to one that you simply cannot
asciilifeform: even if n times less efficient
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046586 << this lol was promised a while back. i can picture hdd makers in a seekrit bunker, conferring, 'the gpu people had their day in the sun, now our turn to milk the morons'
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 19:42:12 punkman: https://www.chia.net/ Bram Cohen (bittorrent guy) finally launched his thing. Mining rigs are pile of HDDs, so when you stop mining, you still got pile of HDDs.
punkman: thing says it has 30exabytes, not bad
punkman: seems like it's the biggest hdd coin, and there's a handful of them
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-12-28 13:08:51 asciilifeform: and in general all 'oddball algo by anon' are guilty until proven innocent of being elaborate smoke&mirror schemes for inflatola, premine, or even straight magic-key theft
asciilifeform: there is elementarily no proof (nor expect one to be possible) that it actually ~requires~ that mass of hdd.
punkman: I collected a few papers to read, but yeah I suspect shoddy proofs
asciilifeform: the unfailing, per asciilifeform , algo re shitcoinism : take the most cynical fraud you can imagine to be possible with $subj. assume that it, x9000, is happening.
asciilifeform: punkman: think, why would the perp even bother, if he did not have 'trump card' ?
asciilifeform: erryone wants to 'be satoshi'. how to achieve this if not by somehow replaying history with $perp at 'the center'.
asciilifeform will summarize re thread : worth to recall (was mpism?) 'bitcoin can be useful without being useful ~to you~', can be usable-without-being-usable-by-you, etc. and will continue to work as originally designed even if with 5 people.
asciilifeform: and ftr asciilifeform aint ever, at any point or for any reason, 'moving' to a buterinized (i.e. with a detectable 'ruler' or equivalent) shitcoin.
punkman: I don't think it's much useful with 5 people, or 21 with a million each
asciilifeform: punkman: objectively was useful to the 5 people who, at one point, were the userbase.
asciilifeform: if this does not include punkman -- is b/w him and odin strictly
punkman: was not, it was interesting toy
asciilifeform: is interesting toy to asciilifeform . today.
asciilifeform: nothing more.
asciilifeform: and this is because of the volatility.
asciilifeform: the electro-hawala aspect aint going anywhere, and it is presently handicapped by the volatility.
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-05-15 22:50:48 asciilifeform: 1 btc has certain very useful properties that 1 usd does not .
asciilifeform: anyways, imho if it in fact is possible to 'break bitcoin', the sooner it happens, the better.
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-12-16 22:18:33 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-12-16#1026447 << would like to emphasize -- imho if this is physically possible, then the sooner it takes place, the better. so can move on from the broken algo, to something else.
asciilifeform: a broken algo that no one's concretely fucked yet, is still a broken algo.
vex: I don't understand anyonecanspend, is it possible to test with a few nodes?