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(trilema) diana_coman: I do a lot of code-reading WITH paper + pencil; but that means more writing than printing really
(trilema) diana_coman: I do try to keep otherwise lines relatively short mainly because no reason for very long but that in code not in comments, admitted; and certainly not with some strict 80 char limit per se, true
(trilema) diana_coman: multi-line is still chop the way my brain reads
(trilema) diana_coman: asciilifeform, tbh lines chopped tend to bother me; I repeatedly tried (years/ages ago) the whole thing with 80cols, quick to read etc but... it still bothers me, what can I do; that being said, I see there long comments line not code; possibly some printfs in the tests that might be long I suppose
(trilema) diana_coman: yay, thank you phf ! that was super-quick
(trilema) diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-02#1762161 <- ugh, I'd never have described ro as streamlined; I get what you mean though and at least the holidays certainly froze everything over there
(trilema) diana_coman: oh, lobbes never mind, it didn't yet get through it seems and I was seeing a stale invoice instead, will wait
(trilema) diana_coman: my invoice seems to be for 1 according to deedbot instead of the correct 7660ecu i.e. 0.00000766; lobbes can you check that?
(trilema) diana_coman: honestly, it all sounds to me so deja-vu in the style of "soon" meaning anything at all but usually a loong time (possibly unless oiled) and forms to fill similar "hoops for no-connections person"
(trilema) diana_coman: question is what leverage the press really has
(trilema) diana_coman: I thought you had found the needed local person for it after some fumbling or did I get that part wrong?
(trilema) diana_coman: so the bank account? or creating a business? and why/what exactly in more detail?
(trilema) diana_coman: what is the current bottleneck anyway? I can't seem to find it in clear in there or previous posts, am I missing something?
(trilema) diana_coman: and if it gets to praying stage....
(trilema) diana_coman: BingoBoingo, " I would have liked has on into becoming a fuctional as a person in Montevideo " <- ??
(trilema) diana_coman: Happy New Year!
(trilema) diana_coman: pretty much dead, yes; whatever we took out at that time is still there though
(trilema) diana_coman: hanbot, also!
(trilema) diana_coman just had this trouble of explaining to 5 yo what's that "floare la ureche"
(trilema) diana_coman: well, there's nothing to mind for sure
(trilema) diana_coman: fideluta though can also be ...varza taiata fideluta aka very very thinly
(trilema) diana_coman: mircea_popescu, some ascii art in eulora? lol
(trilema) diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-30#1761322 <- varza esti, nu te faci; that's about the only reason I suspect this just doesn't ...work; can't beat /cut someone into cabbage; they can however be cabbage themselves
(trilema) diana_coman: where's your castle zineKing ?
(trilema) diana_coman: also: give people a bit of rope to hang themselves with, what; if any sort of constraint makes sense it might be to ask them to register a key first *before* they get voice
(trilema) diana_coman: ah; well, key code that one anyway
(trilema) diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-28#1759948 <- do you mean the references and substrata?
(trilema) diana_coman: cheers shinohai
(trilema) diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760176 <- ahahah, feels like it at times, yes!
(trilema) diana_coman: thank you, phf!
(trilema) diana_coman: I've updated the reference shelf phf, maybe you are missing the previous patch? http://www.dianacoman.com/reference-code-shelf/
(trilema) diana_coman: is that the trouble?
(trilema) diana_coman: it does modify a lot of things so it's seen as having antecedents ch1, ch2 and the mpi-fix iirc
(trilema) diana_coman: I tested it locally with v and v99 and everything pressed fine
(trilema) diana_coman: I just noticed the weird graph; any idea what?
(trilema) diana_coman: !!seen esthlos
(trilema) diana_coman: !!v F86B917C8A985F0F4DEEA86779F31E186369CD2305830051D630044D5969FE5F
(trilema) diana_coman: !!key esthlos
(trilema) diana_coman: onth "meaningful" there doesn't refer to code only and if new code in new files depends on existing code in untouched existing files, it may be meaningful nevertheless to update the readme file of the project for instance to say as much
(trilema) diana_coman: I ran a bit into that with eucrypt but I can't say I have some clear idea what would be a good solution there as it seems to me it's a matter of level considered i.e. file, folder, component, whole project, what
(trilema) diana_coman: ahahaha, would fit perfectly, yes
(trilema) diana_coman: ben_vulpes, he started sounding too much like mpi-insane
(trilema) diana_coman: !!down borstal
(trilema) diana_coman: seefelder, better install and play eulora, it might give you something to say at least; see http://logs.minigame.bz/
(trilema) diana_coman: the dangerous reflections, who knew
(trilema) diana_coman: seefelder, any blog where one can read what you reflected on so far?
(trilema) diana_coman: ahaha, I admit I wouldn't put the time into modelling it to that degree
(trilema) diana_coman: try them on the ceiling then? might stay THERE
(trilema) diana_coman: mircea_popescu, yeah, the url has blame in it; the text there has avoidance in it I'd say, lol
(trilema) diana_coman: asciilifeform, yes, I plan precisely a unifier; that makes total sense to me, see above where I already said I consider v99 behaviour as correct
(trilema) diana_coman: fwiw mod6 I'm rather happy you wrote it though, as it helped me a lot in the beginning when I was trying to get my head around v itself; having at least 2 implementations to compare is not a bad thing
(trilema) diana_coman: mod6, no rush at all; I just reported it because unexpected to me; let me know if there is any other info I can provide to help
(trilema) diana_coman: ch2 vpatch is *another* leaf, sibling of this vpatch
(trilema) diana_coman: it seems I also found a difference in press behaviour between asciilifeform's v99 and mod6's v: this new vpatch of mine si correctly identified as leaf and otherwise descendant of ch1_mpi.vpatch by both v ; however, when pressing ch2 vpatch, mod6's v presses this other leaf too from what I see, while asciilifeform's v99 does not press it; to me v99's behaviour seems correct but I don't know if this is something that was discussed before
(trilema) diana_coman: congrats BingoBoingo
(trilema) diana_coman: heh, in good old traditions of a long-gone world and age, eulorans are rather suspicious of change and they aren't old even!!
(trilema) diana_coman: so I just did a quick curl for latest gpg, 2.2.4; at least in name ~everything is changed ofc, but it's a load of lol to do a plain grep -r "workaround" .
(trilema) diana_coman: in other words a whole new set of worms, veryverynice
(trilema) diana_coman: asciilifeform, myeah, I suspect it's still widely used in fact; if I get any time I'll take a peak at latest I suppose
(trilema) diana_coman: thing is now I'm even *less* comfortable using that whole mpi thing... makes me wonder what else is in there and not yet spotted
(trilema) diana_coman: thanks mod6!
(trilema) diana_coman: for the very impatient: caller fails on the cases where it uses that broken macro i.e. any shift by a multiple of BITS_PER_MPI_LIMB; 0 is just one case, not the only one; further up, caller avoids the issue, as stated
(trilema) diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-20#1754999 <- it is broken anyway, yes; at the very top it works as I said: by avoiding it basically; in any case, hang on until tomorrow as next chapter will have to be patching this and sorting it out
(trilema) diana_coman: because k can be 0 and so it needs to initialize result with nminus1 before the call, just in case...
(trilema) diana_coman: instead it does first copy(result, nminus1) and then mpi_tdiv_q_2exp(result, result, k)
(trilema) diana_coman: namely: it needs to calculate nminus1 / 2 ^ k but it does NOT call mpi_tdiv_q_2exp(result, nminus1, k)
(trilema) diana_coman: caller (primegn) in this case does a very weird thing - the one that actually GOT me into investigating and therefore finding this
(trilema) diana_coman: because it works around this specifically BUT without making it clear
(trilema) diana_coman: so result is in fact incorrect
(trilema) diana_coman: when n is 0 guess what
(trilema) diana_coman: but it doesn't work because i=0; i<n
(trilema) diana_coman: because dividing n by 2^0 aka 1 means result should be n
(trilema) diana_coman: it wants to be a straight copy
(trilema) diana_coman: asciilifeform, I can tell you what it wants to be, lol
(trilema) diana_coman: because no, it's not; it's what I put in aka result
(trilema) diana_coman: at the end result will be what I put in aka number?
(trilema) diana_coman: so if I call it with result, number and 0
(trilema) diana_coman: so what do you say the result is, asciilifeform ?
(trilema) diana_coman: so mpi_tdiv_q_2exp(result, number, 0)
(trilema) diana_coman: and even more to the point: what is the result in mpi sane?
(trilema) diana_coman: asciilifeform, what do you say the result should be when the count is 0 ? (k as mircea_popescu says)
(trilema) diana_coman: does anybody know precisely what function mpi_tdiv_q_2exp from "sane mpi" does exactly? as we were talking of understanding of code earlier
(trilema) diana_coman: sounds like a very nice cake danielpbarron
(trilema) diana_coman: so more like how much mismatch between the two representations (diff vs tool graphical or otherwise) is tolerable given that this mismatch inevitably creates noise?
(trilema) diana_coman: because basically I get to "choose" between: model it non-graphically and it's clear or use the "simpler" gui that makes it then 100 times harder to follow the changes; is that it or what am I missing there?
(trilema) diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1754565 <- hmmm, I'm certainly not one for graphics much, but tbh a graphical tool that results then in a lot of noise when diffing outputs sounds like a bad tool to me
(trilema) diana_coman: asciilifeform, it's fine to say no secure memory,sure; it's not fine to pretend it is used but then "use" it like in the example
(trilema) diana_coman: mircea_popescu, myeah, I suspect it's sloppiness, "but it's same thing"
(trilema) diana_coman: and in more recent lol-with-gpg: the primegen function in gpg allocates secure memory for candidate prime when generating for rsa BUT then it goes on and calls is_prime on that "n" and is_prime calculates and stores n-1 in ...insecure memory
(trilema) diana_coman: in "only 2 years later" but since I did not find otherwise in the logs an answer to mod6's question at http://btcbase.org/log/2015-05-20#1139680 : that is simply the number of limbs, so a matter of size; since p and q are same size, it is fine there although arguably not helping the reader
(trilema) diana_coman: I suspect the 2 is basically the...potato soup of gpg: cheapest available
(trilema) diana_coman: esthlos, "primes is in p" is the original paper describing aks; by agrawal, kayal and saxena, you'll find it easily
(trilema) diana_coman: mircea_popescu, I think this might be worth made into a knob in the code explicitly
(trilema) diana_coman: gnupg m-r implementation rather
(trilema) diana_coman: power-fu indeed
(trilema) diana_coman: that meanie bernard shaw...
(trilema) diana_coman: cheers shinohai
(trilema) diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-16#1752219 <- perhaps because other than here, nobody actually asks them to or indeed bothers to look at it if they do
(trilema) diana_coman: mircea_popescu, on 2nd thought it does make more sense to link it on bought than on cost, indeed; updated, thank you
(trilema) diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-15#1751825 <- there is the FG banner that is quite obvious; in any case, I'm still hoping there will be a tmsr isp hence the s.nsa shop page back so that I can link to it directly
(trilema) diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-15#1751812 <- it is indeed linked, just a minute later, on additional cost
(trilema) diana_coman: to round up the previous thread: previous patch on mpi remains in place but linked to standalone mpi project; EuCrypt got is own genesis patch that creates *the whole currently known structure*; each chapter comes with its own patch adding content
(trilema) diana_coman: mind telling me how you see it done? it's hopefully faster than debugging a wrong approach; once I have it working I'll write up the failure too if that's the thing
(trilema) diana_coman: asciilifeform, it does the move BUT it requires post-cleaning (i.e. leaves some stuff behind) + works only with mod6's v; so something is wrong somewhere and hopefully it's just on my side i.e. I can correct it quickly following your explanation of how it should be done
(trilema) diana_coman: fwiw I managed to do this to some extent, but I don't like this "to some extent"
(trilema) diana_coman: asciilifeform, I need to create a vpatch that performs the change of dir structure from a/mpi to b/eucrypt/mpi where the contents of the mpi folder in both cases are identical; or more specifically for the task at hand: I want to create a vpatch that has as antecedent my previous sane_mpi_eucrypt.vpatch (whose output is an mpi folder with all sorts) and results in eucrypt/mpi where this new mpi folder has precisely same contents
(trilema) diana_coman: asciilifeform, would you please elaborate on http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-07#1748150 ? apparently it's still not straightforward enough for me in practice
(trilema) diana_coman: of* someone else's patches I guess
(trilema) diana_coman: mod6, more FFA tests sounds good to me; slightly related: is there any protocol/preferred approach for publishing signatures to someone else's patches?
(trilema) diana_coman: how's it going for you?
(trilema) diana_coman: mod6, so far so good, preparing ch2 for tomorrow
(trilema) diana_coman: that actually looks quite like it to me at least, mod6
(trilema) diana_coman: to me its main meaning is of someone capable/doing stuff and doing it properly
(trilema) diana_coman: although to be honest I wouldn't have defined it as notable, hmm
(trilema) diana_coman: aha; well, depending on whose vrednic it is...
(trilema) diana_coman: I know it's no accident, yes; still funny though
(trilema) diana_coman: now I wonder whether asciilifeform knows what "drujba" means in Romanian, lol
(trilema) diana_coman: at least that: in ploiesti you could get it ...probably even directly from the air I suppose
(trilema) diana_coman: mircea_popescu, well, not exactly industrial city, what
(trilema) diana_coman: mircea_popescu, myeah; worked as long as there was electricity; and if you lived in a town with any big industry,there would be random blackouts meaning you'd get stuck in the lift between floors
(trilema) diana_coman: funny this "when the bubble will burst on bitcoin value" but not even one line on "when the bubble will burst on house prices"
(trilema) diana_coman: funnier still walking around with it; fwiw the text reads though as if it actually starts somewhere in the 4th paragraph
(trilema) diana_coman: ugh, that cover
(trilema) diana_coman: asciilifeform, glad to help, even this tiny bit
(trilema) diana_coman: asciilifeform, fwiw I read it as in went through it line by line and with pencil and paper; ran it too at the end, played a bit around with tests and that; and since we are at this, nitpick: in FZ_Swap why T:=X if already initialised at declaration or what am I missing of Ada in there?
(trilema) diana_coman: phf, thanks!
(trilema) diana_coman: phf, fixed, thank you!
(trilema) diana_coman: in general the discussion will also stick much closer to the code
(trilema) diana_coman: mircea_popescu, ah, in general it will be, yes; this is quite particular as it is a rather big block of not-totally-sane code that is imported basically
(trilema) diana_coman: asciilifeform, aha; well, sane-by-comparison to the clusterfuck that is whole GnuPG (I DID go through THAT too initially)
(trilema) diana_coman: more like forcing one to see them I guess
(trilema) diana_coman: mircea_popescu, they could, there's no question there; but they are text as it is, not sure what the big gain is (and it would end up in a very long thing)
(trilema) diana_coman: feel free to host them too, obv
(trilema) diana_coman: asciilifeform, sigs for your genesis + second cut patches are included at http://www.dianacoman.com/2017/12/07/introducing-eucrypt/
(trilema) diana_coman will attempt it with some time to spare
(trilema) diana_coman: well yes, that was my initial proposal and question "is it possible?" ; if yes, then all nice and cool
(trilema) diana_coman: at some point it seemed it was only me and scriba in chan, lol
(trilema) diana_coman: asciilifeform, can you work me through the steps to "subsume it into your own"? I don't yet see clearly what that is
(trilema) diana_coman: no, separate parts that eucrypt uses
(trilema) diana_coman: hm, I thought I need a/mpi b/mpi ; can I have ..what, a/mpi and b/eucrypt/mpi?
(trilema) diana_coman: asciilifeform, I can compile it certainly wherever it is; but can I press with V eucrypt with eucrypt/mpi and eucrypt/serpent let's say?
(trilema) diana_coman: nesis of eucrypt itself and one the genesis of mpi)
(trilema) diana_coman: is there some documented process re how to create with V basically a new project that will contain as *internal* components derivations of existing projects? for example: eucrypt will have inside an mpi component; as seen earlier, I can patch mpi directly, but then how do I include the result in a higher structure? can I even do it while preserving the links? (I guess it would mean that resulting project has effectively 2 roots: one the ge
(trilema) diana_coman: the normal normality as opposed to abnormal normality or what
(trilema) diana_coman: thank you asciilifeform for your help
(trilema) diana_coman: right; cleaned it again fully; put back in the readme file; made the structure a/mpi and b/mpi; can finally say that patch presses fine with both vtrons
(trilema) diana_coman: I do get it, thanks; will try again and report
(trilema) diana_coman: just one level lower
(trilema) diana_coman: yes,they HAVE same structure
(trilema) diana_coman: while I did it on a containing code, wtf
(trilema) diana_coman: but apparently I should have done it on a containing mpi containing the code
(trilema) diana_coman: asciilifeform, that is what I did
(trilema) diana_coman goes to try again
(trilema) diana_coman: asciilifeform, ugh, I see
(trilema) diana_coman: not in any way a point of the patch
(trilema) diana_coman: will try without that readme file change anyway as that's more of an artefact of having run make clean (which deleted it too)
(trilema) diana_coman: mircea_popescu, tbh I lost count; more like delete and create whole thing again, on the verge of making bash scripts for each project anyway
(trilema) diana_coman: this is new patch on top , yes
(trilema) diana_coman: asciilifeform, I CAN PRESS your patches
(trilema) diana_coman: ugh; now I have a situation in which mod6's v simply drops on the floor my patch, while asciilifeform's v sees it correctly in the flow BUT when pressing it barfs saying that a readme file that the patch deletes does not exist as a result of previous patch WHILE pressing previous patch actually creates that file;
(trilema) diana_coman: ftr mod6 you might want to update it on foundation's website
(trilema) diana_coman: aha, it's basically my ...tweaked one except I did not realise I needed a space too
(trilema) diana_coman: asciilifeform, thank you!
(trilema) diana_coman: I did tweak it but I might have gotten something wrong and I'd rather rule this part out before hunting for issues
(trilema) diana_coman: that one seems to still spit timestamps on my machine at least
(trilema) diana_coman: asciilifeform, mind publishing somewhere your current vdiff?
(trilema) diana_coman doesn't claim much rum-knowledge
(trilema) diana_coman: while I usually do have rum in the house it's (at least supposedly) meant for..caek
(trilema) diana_coman: mircea_popescu, lol, it was surely worth it for them then at least
(trilema) diana_coman: hm, if I'm looking at the right model it still is some reasonable size; I flew a couple of times to Rome on some 15-seats plane and that was always... interesting
(trilema) diana_coman: oh, really small plane
(trilema) diana_coman: BingoBoingo, in Europe at least the "difference" between economy and business class on small regional flights is quite often a... curtain drawn to separate the 2 areas of the aircraft, but not much else (same seats, same space/lack of it, same food if you really need airplane-food on a 2-3 hours flight)
(trilema) diana_coman has no idea who michael vick is
(trilema) diana_coman: and hm, maybe update the vdiff linked from http://thebitcoin.foundation/ if there's a newer version
(trilema) diana_coman: hm, is there a clear convention re patch names ? using - or _ as separators? mod6's *very useful* guide at http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-September/000168.html seems to suggest _ but the collection of patches seems to use both - and _
(trilema) diana_coman: good point there, huh
(trilema) diana_coman: asciilifeform, will do
(trilema) diana_coman: I can also confirm that it presses with asciilifeform's v and moreover that the 2 results are - as expected - same
(trilema) diana_coman: I can confirm this version presses with mod6's vtron
(trilema) diana_coman: asciilifeform, mk, so no need for the tar I gather since you can easily reproduce it anyway
(trilema) diana_coman: I'll wipe again and try your v too for completeness at least
(trilema) diana_coman: wiped previous dir, took everything out with curl etc
(trilema) diana_coman: asciilifeform, this was FRESH
(trilema) diana_coman: uhm, something is weird
(trilema) diana_coman goes to take it again
(trilema) diana_coman: is there now a problem with second_cut?
(trilema) diana_coman: so then : I try to press and I get...that
(trilema) diana_coman: asciilifeform, there is something I don't understand: shouldn't I be able to press the second cut now with the new genesis present?
(trilema) diana_coman: aha, seems to be same here, confirmed
(trilema) diana_coman: 2 out of 5 hunks FAILED -- saving rejects to file mpi/README.rej and contents of README.rej are here: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/J8ESM/?raw=true
(trilema) diana_coman: asciilifeform, here it seems to barf on the ...README file?
(trilema) diana_coman: asciilifeform, did you take out the second_cut patch link from the updated http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1533 ? or am I just not seeing it/not getting something?
(trilema) diana_coman: I can confirm that the new genesis & the old second_cut vpatch are now at least recognised by mod6's v
(trilema) diana_coman: asciilifeform, thank you, I'll look in a minute; (had all hands full a minute here with all sorts)
(trilema) diana_coman: basically this "sane-mpi" tar.gz: www.loper-os.org/pub/mpi/mpi-genesis.tar.gz
(trilema) diana_coman: mod6, this is what I have and on which it failed: http://dianacoman.com/available_resources/testmpi.tar.gz
(trilema) diana_coman: yes but the vpatch, not the press itself
(trilema) diana_coman: asciilifeform, http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/mINB0/?raw=true encrypted .tar.gz of whole dir with everything
(trilema) diana_coman: and I ran it : v99 --wot .wot --seals .seals patches a mpi_second_cut.vpatch
(trilema) diana_coman: asciilifeform, v99 (taken from here: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-August/000160.html ) complains that "No roots found!" -> what am I missing?
(trilema) diana_coman: myeah, I had done the renaming
(trilema) diana_coman: ah, that might be it, makes sense
(trilema) diana_coman: asciilifeform, same sha512 here
(trilema) diana_coman: anyways, will try with asciilifeform's v for now; maybe mod6 has some idea on this later
(trilema) diana_coman: (did that before even running v anyway)
(trilema) diana_coman: a gpg --verify here worked perfectly fine for me too on both patches
(trilema) diana_coman: asciilifeform, got it from your website
(trilema) diana_coman: mircea_popescu, nope, I just downloaded it again today so it's the new one
(trilema) diana_coman: ftr I used mod6's vtron on ch1 of ffa and it worked perfectly fine
(trilema) diana_coman: ok, let me try with yours too then, can't hurt
(trilema) diana_coman: yes,as stated
(trilema) diana_coman: v f shows only the genesis
(trilema) diana_coman: but it seems to think there are no descendants on it (so v d mpi-genesis.vpatch returns empty)
(trilema) diana_coman: ftr it finds the genesis patch fine
(trilema) diana_coman: yes; see folder structure above
(trilema) diana_coman: tch: Error! Could not find vpatch "mpi_second_cut.vpatch" ; when I run v a mpi_second_cut.vpatch I get: Error! Could not find vpatch "mpi_second_cut.vpatch"
(trilema) diana_coman: mod6 or asciilifeform, can you help? I'm trying to press asciilifeform's second patch for sane-mpi and V complains that it can't find the vpatch file although it is there (and I checked the sig too and it's all fine); I'm running your V, version thebitcoin.foundation/v/V-20170317.tar.gz.mod6 ; I have the following folder structure: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/1ZwgW/?raw=true; Here's the error when I run v press verbose . mpi_second_cut.vpa
(trilema) diana_coman: BingoBoingo, can add picture of inspection note to the rest of "local flora&fauna" pics
(trilema) diana_coman: la multi ani, asciilifeform !
(trilema) diana_coman: re not really extracts - I guess it's fair to say it's not "extracts" but rather "charms out of" and that certainly makes some sense; although it's totally unclear how it went from conquering actively to charming passively
(trilema) diana_coman: and moreover, that was said in 1898, not as if it's new or anything
(trilema) diana_coman: there was no counter-argument there; those were scum; the point was simply that this sort of scum is alive for longer than it would be if not for the warm/comfy "crowd"
(trilema) diana_coman: well, the *what* it extracts is of course much more telling of what the thing is to start with; as for the reasons there... reason was as far as I understand it "they are better than us because they defeated us", can't say it's obviously "smoke and mirror"
(trilema) diana_coman: hm, by same token life only ever survives (briefly) as an extraction engine, what of it
(trilema) diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-02#1745663 <- how was that, "perfectly insignificant and incapable individuals, whose existence is only rendered possible through the high organization of civilized crowds..."
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