asciilifeformagriculturalsupremacyspykedtrilema
4h 3m6d 21h 59m4d 20h 2m403d 12h 18m

Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans


mircea_popescu: heh
mircea_popescu: aand in other socialism-improved-college lulz, https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/21/chicago-was-sexual-fantasy-of-us-professor-and-oxford-college-worker
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/the-hippopotamus/ << Trilema - The Hippopotamus
BingoBoingo: And I got to skip the awkward waiting between mandatory check out and check back in times at the hostel
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 15301.0, vol: 13793.77734905 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 14997.0, vol: 57417.10285256 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 15316.5, vol: 2684.04490121 | Volume-weighted last average: 15065.3519288
BingoBoingo: Who could have predicted that bank holiday ends and crashing resumes!
BingoBoingo: !!up zen_
deedbot: zen_ voiced for 30 minutes.
zen_: oh shit does that mean i have to chat that long?
BingoBoingo: zen_: Quien es su papa y que se hace el?
BingoBoingo: zen_: No, it means you have that long to make a case for sticking around
BingoBoingo: Or issue a plea for the chance to make your case again
zen_: i have a case of chocolate truffles
zen_: will that suffice?
BingoBoingo: El chocolate truffles, de donde es?
BingoBoingo: Anyways with regards to your identity. Who are you, Where did you come from, How did you get here, and where to you imagine you are going?
BingoBoingo: tick tock
BingoBoingo: zen_: ^
BingoBoingo: zen_: Also do you have a blog, or any links to work which might impress the republic?
deedbot: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2017/12/26/as-it-turns-out-fireworks-do-not-photograph-well-navidad-in-the-land-of-tranquility/ << Bingo Blog - As It Turns Out Fireworks Do Not Photograph Well: Navidad In The Land Of Tranquility
asciilifeform: in other lulz, https://archive.is/Q0fc5 >> 'Thousands of government papers detailing some of the most controversial episodes in 20th-century British history have vanished after civil servants removed them from the country’s National Archives and then reported them as lost.'
shinohai: The whole series thus far is very entertaining.
shinohai: Nice post BingoBoingo, only thing that offends my ears: "El edificios aca tiene huesos / Los edificios aca tienen huesos"
BingoBoingo: Muchas gracias
BingoBoingo: It appears my verb tense errors may be leaking bits of recent conversation context
BingoBoingo: In other news, god bless Peru for not having real datacenters. Sounds like a very inconvenient place to be right now.
shinohai: De nada .... what's happening in Peru, The Cuy is rising up?
BingoBoingo: The current president issued a compasionate pardon allowing former president to die in a hospital rather than prison. The pantsuit fake news is alleging riots. Possibility of USG.blue color shennanigans.
shinohai: Turns out that my supposition wasn't too far off, average Peruvian being about as intelligent as a cuy,
BingoBoingo: En otra cosas http://www.elpais.com.uy/informacion/montevideo-eje-megaestafa-dinero-irregular.html
BingoBoingo: And this is how they do the weather here http://www.elpais.com.uy/informacion/mal-asi-estara-diciembre-enero.html
shinohai: Does local TV have sexy weather girl BingoBoingo ?
BingoBoingo: I haven't actively watched tv since Houston
BingoBoingo: lol http://www.elpais.com.uy/informacion/afap-cruzan-murro-exigen-discutir-sistema.html
shinohai: http://archive.is/LBEfk << Wonder if I can get a discount if I use Prime.
shinohai: http://archive.is/5AOg5 << Run moar prb ... "I dont know how i got hacked, i use my laptop just for coldstorage, i turn it on and all my BTC are gone."
shinohai: I don't think cold storage means what you think it means.
deedbot: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2017/12/26/other-assorted-trivia-on-navidad-in-uruguay/ << Bingo Blog - Other Assorted Trivia On Navidad In Uruguay
BingoBoingo: And from the Spades and Spades departmento https://i.redditmedia.com/AQIpkdNnuUHHIyzGjCoT27cNXadOJaQXbMtC5IvJECg.jpg?w=603&s=680f4783200e1fcaac02a3c15602d477
shinohai: ^ top keke
BingoBoingo: And pantsuit climatarasty neglects that... when heat fuels 100% humidity... Rain tends to happen dropping the humidity again https://archive.is/k7j1f
BingoBoingo: And pantsuit WAPO defends assaults of sexual natures https://archive.is/LbRiA
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 15950.0, vol: 14013.56605120 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 15816.0, vol: 59791.06830403 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 16079.8, vol: 3298.34940167 | Volume-weighted last average: 15851.6396379
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758614 << consider a genesis, a and b patchset where a and b don't touch the same files. if i press to b, write a c that descends from b, it will not have a as an antecedent. when you say "modify the filebase into the shape that you want it to be", do you mean include the changes of a in the c patch?
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 01:06 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-25#1758589 << i don't get what the problem is. write a patch that modifies the filebase into the shape you want it to be. what's the problem ?
ben_vulpes: and in other profitable mining strategies: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/25/business/energy-environment/germany-electricity-negative-prices.html
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758644 << what's your daddy DO HIMSELF ?
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 13:30 BingoBoingo: zen_: Quien es su papa y que se hace el?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758647 << better than average, let's put it that way.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 13:32 zen_: i have a case of chocolate truffles
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758666 << speaking of, /me saw fox something-or-the-other over at whorehouse/steakhouse yest. they had a chick with an ass/waist/boob range that was iiincredible, and then had her act like a retarded 12yo playing pattycake and whatnot with the blondy they had paired her up with.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 15:19 shinohai: Does local TV have sexy weather girl BingoBoingo ?
mircea_popescu: sometimes lowest effort as typical of tv pays off, i guess.
BingoBoingo: lol
shinohai: xD
mircea_popescu: better than the "professional" conceit. really, someone got to anchor tv for their non-cleavage skills ? what am i to believe next, that bridges are for sale ?
BingoBoingo: Perhaps soon!
BingoBoingo: Could anchor for non-cleavage acrobatics skills.
mircea_popescu: if one's stuck pretending something stupid, better off make it include being stupid rather than pretend it's possible to include some kind of being smart that doesn't readily reduce to being smrt.
mircea_popescu: "oh, i read cnn for the commentary, the boobs are INCIDENTAL. also, fleshhouse and playcunt, same deal. oh and those letters to the editor ? totes legit!"
mircea_popescu: "the arrangement leaves me stranded when eg trying to understand why hillary lost, but that's ok, i'm not really meant to understand things."
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758679 << the ~only way to fix a tree that has diverged is to regrind that portion of the divergence you intend to keep.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 17:52 ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758614 << consider a genesis, a and b patchset where a and b don't touch the same files. if i press to b, write a c that descends from b, it will not have a as an antecedent. when you say "modify the filebase into the shape that you want it to be", do you mean include the changes of a in the c patch?
mircea_popescu: the situation where a and b are pressed SEPARATELY is a fork.
mircea_popescu: hence http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-24#1757999
a111: Logged on 2017-12-24 17:02 mircea_popescu: because it will cost someone's time to reconcile.
mircea_popescu: so as the reconciler, you get to pick which of ~either~ a ~or~ b to count in your considered oppinion as the republican and which as the heretic.
mircea_popescu: because nothing less than this is at stake ; and do not make stray patches if you can help it.
hanbot: in other puns, i discovered just this morning that "hippopotamus" is the latin horse + river, had missed out on the double pun fun of http://trilema.com/2017/the-hippopotamus/ 's last line. i stand in awe and horror of whomever ends up adnotating trilema
mircea_popescu: ehehehe.
mircea_popescu: hanbot no but see, THIS is what a classical education fucking is. not retarded fry making hobbit jokes because hey, the history according to fry started when he first got a bit of usg.corp fried chicken.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: aye aye
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 15662.0, vol: 13962.96317052 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 15563.0, vol: 60770.99895801 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 15746.5, vol: 3400.44095335 | Volume-weighted last average: 15588.6777321
danielpbarron: mircea_popescu, got your package! ty
BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: How's the frozen north?
danielpbarron: i hate it
mircea_popescu: o hey, nice.
danielpbarron: photographed the unboxing to maybe post on blog when i figure this mp-wp thing out
mircea_popescu: cool deal.
mircea_popescu: didja run into trouble with it ? ask away
danielpbarron: do you use apache(2) or nginx?
mircea_popescu: should work equally well on both.
mircea_popescu: atm some apache, but historically also nginx
danielpbarron: i'm familiar with apache but i was trying out nginx at first for this
mircea_popescu: might need mysql db installed separately if only comes with postgres or something
mircea_popescu can't recall if mp-wp still supports psql or not
shinohai: mp-wp worked equally well on apache and nginx for me. Never used another db besides mysql tho
BingoBoingo: !!up seefelder
ben_vulpes: !!up seefelder
deedbot: seefelder voiced for 30 minutes.
deedbot: seefelder voiced for 30 minutes.
BingoBoingo: seefelder: Who is your daddy and what does he do himself?
seefelder: that's private
BingoBoingo: Well, who are you?
seefelder: i am (NOT) a bot, reflecting human species
BingoBoingo: That's not very informative, you've expended both your strikes. One last chance to make a good impression.
diana_coman: seefelder, any blog where one can read what you reflected on so far?
seefelder: only locally stored ... i am maybe paranoid
BingoBoingo: !!down seefelder
diana_coman: the dangerous reflections, who knew
phf: would that be considered "a coy behavior"?
BingoBoingo: Well, too coy for 2017
mircea_popescu: phf it is, isn't it ?
mircea_popescu: "avoidant" as per teh "attachment theory" nonsense that pantsuit "public policy" rests upon
diana_coman: seefelder, better install and play eulora, it might give you something to say at least; see http://logs.minigame.bz/
BingoBoingo: At the rate things are moving by mid 2018, the demand for openess to get a lend of voice is likely going to be self performed rectal ultrasound on mfc while reading logs
mircea_popescu: more practically, voice will be acquired via introduction by lord, ie, court presentation.
mircea_popescu: go make yer castles today, so noobs have a shot at life in 2018
BingoBoingo: Ah the lols to come from venue shopping n00bs
mircea_popescu: why so hostile anyway bb ?
BingoBoingo: Fireworks withdrawal
BingoBoingo: One doesn not see the city in the splendid glow of burning metal salts in the sky without missing them.
mircea_popescu: lel
BingoBoingo: There's chicas everywhere so if that fell through no big deal... The concerted effort put for by the locals on the Latino Christmas show, I lack the patience and means to make that happen on a whim.
shinohai: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758742 <<< Implying I don't already do this .....
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 19:46 BingoBoingo: At the rate things are moving by mid 2018, the demand for openess to get a lend of voice is likely going to be self performed rectal ultrasound on mfc while reading logs
mircea_popescu just dumped a whole sack of coal on teh grill, teh girls happily cleanning up a grosse of pleurotus... if anyone needs me ima be at teh rancho bbqing.
ben_vulpes: !!up borstal
deedbot: borstal voiced for 30 minutes.
ben_vulpes: it's still 2017, borstal, what do you have to show for how you've lived your life?
borstal: Right Banks, you bastard! I'm the daddy now, next time, I'll fucking kill ya!
shinohai sighs
mod6: TMSR~: mod6.net is back up. Thanks.
ben_vulpes: borstal: that's it?
borstal: 1
borstal: true (boolean)
diana_coman: !!down borstal
ben_vulpes: where's your holiday spirit, diana_coman
diana_coman: ben_vulpes, he started sounding too much like mpi-insane
ben_vulpes: #define true false
diana_coman: ahahaha, would fit perfectly, yes
mod6: :D
shinohai: This is hilarious on thepiratebay website, on the donation footer says: "Bcash: LOL"
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758679 << to my mind this suggests the hashes present in vpatch blocks are wrong. if they were rather the hash of the entire concatenation of the diffed item before and after applying that block, there'd be no need to pointlessly edit files to continue on the same branch.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 17:52 ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758614 << consider a genesis, a and b patchset where a and b don't touch the same files. if i press to b, write a c that descends from b, it will not have a as an antecedent. when you say "modify the filebase into the shape that you want it to be", do you mean include the changes of a in the c patch?
trinque: further, pointless edits are antithetical to v-tronics
trinque: "whole patch must be meaningful"
ben_vulpes: it may be that tracking hashes at the file level isn't the right thing, because with vdiff as implemented i can trivially generate a vpatch b while working from a press of a that nevertheless still only depends on genesis if a leaves files untouched and b touches those untouched files only
diana_coman: I ran a bit into that with eucrypt but I can't say I have some clear idea what would be a good solution there as it seems to me it's a matter of level considered i.e. file, folder, component, whole project, what
mircea_popescu: trinque this is actually not altogether a meritless point.
ben_vulpes: so far the solutions i see are a) mircea_popescu's "what tree, all patches must descend linearly or be reground into linearity" 2) allow for pressing heads that do not touch the same files
diana_coman: onth "meaningful" there doesn't refer to code only and if new code in new files depends on existing code in untouched existing files, it may be meaningful nevertheless to update the readme file of the project for instance to say as much
mircea_popescu: imo "tree" MUST be linear.
mircea_popescu: then if it is, trinque's point goes away because well... file hash as good as project hash for the linear bat.
ben_vulpes: this still leaves me in the pickle of producing a vpatch from a press to a that won't actually descend linearly from a without touching a file, and adding "this line necessary to ensure this vpatch descends from a and not genesis"
phf: fwiw later approach has been a sop so far
ben_vulpes: phf: which vpatch does this show up in?
phf: ben_vulpes: official trb releases touch many files to tie them all into a single endpoint, e.g. `makefile' did that
ben_vulpes: aha k
phf: http://btcbase.org/patches/makefiles#L390 etc.
shinohai: Just in time for the holidaaaaaaaaaaays fake bitcoin returns
shinohai: http://archive.is/RCrU9
ben_vulpes: phf: this exposes another problem: in ideal vtronics it is an illegal operation to press to multiple leaves at the same tree level, which is the only way to have a codebase against which to create a makefiles-type patch that ties multiple patches together
phf: we also at some point had a thread, where i believe ascii but also others were leaning towards the idea of a single file vpatches (i.e. that a vpatch should only ever contain hunks for a single file). i'm starting to think that multi-file solutions in general are a hack ("we can't fit the entire compilation in memory"), but then i've been looking at TeX on one hand, and the "millions of support files" in diff/patch on the other
ben_vulpes: also, single-file vpatches drives the system towards whole sourcetree hashing, otherwise they'll definitionally never depend on one another
phf: right
danielpbarron: !!balance
deedbot: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/zdK8x/?raw=true
phf: i've also played around with treating vpatch as a container. there's a function on btcbase for splitting all of the vpatches into separate objects, that each hold a single file changes (it's called something like explode-vpatch)
phf: in which case your graph connections become mandatory transitions (rather than what it is now, where you can technically press two different vpatches against a non-overlapping sets of files)
phf: i don't remember if there was any kind of interesting insight from the resulting graph, i should revisit it..
trinque: danielpbarron: your boy MTW all set?
danielpbarron: i think so, but it'd be nice to get a confirmation from him in here
danielpbarron: relatedly, l0de expressed interest in running a "trilema infomercial" on his show. I told him he should bring it up in here, as i'm not sure what that should entail
danielpbarron: !!up l0de
deedbot: l0de voiced for 30 minutes.
danielpbarron: reg a key and you'll be able to voice yourself
l0de: Yes hello, l0de here
l0de: the funds have been remitted to my account
l0de: all is well
danielpbarron: sweet
l0de: I suggest the most serene republic air some sort of introductory statement
l0de: to get viewers of my show interested in their political goals
danielpbarron: would that be a pre-recorded audio clip/ video that we provide?
l0de: Or you can have someone call in to read a statement
l0de: I would stress that my audience doesn't take anything seriously unless it's presented in a humorous context or it is presented as ruining someone's shit
l0de: as they are internet neer-do-wells
danielpbarron: perhaps we can get one of shinohai's cam whores to do it
shinohai: Assuming I can find one that speaks English nowadays ..... xD
l0de: oh yeah, video chat with a cam whore would work perfectly
l0de: no nudity though, youtube is run by craven puritans
l0de: someone with a thick romanian\cambodian accent reading a statement they obviously do not understand
danielpbarron: wasn't indiancandy/sofiababy looking for a way to make bitcoin?
l0de: already lolling
trinque: oh god.
trinque: literatits only pls
trinque: shinohai, you are the baron titsbare himself; got any camhos that can read?
shinohai: hmmm danielpbarron .... sofiababy may be good choice (though not one of my stable)
shinohai: !!up l0de
deedbot: l0de voiced for 30 minutes.
l0de: big up yourself
l0de: booyakasha
phf: in unrelated lulz, knuth shares mp approach to discipline:
phf: If you have only the present report, not a tape, you will have to prepare files WEAVE.WEB and TANGLE.WEB by hand, typing them into the computer by following Appendices D and E. Then you have to simulate the behavior of TANGLE by converting TANGLE.WEB manually into TANGLE.PAS ; with a good text editor this takes about six hours.
mircea_popescu: phf word.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758784 << true.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 21:40 phf: ben_vulpes: official trb releases touch many files to tie them all into a single endpoint, e.g. `makefile' did that
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758790 << especially in the light of 1. move/rename 2. edit double-patch method this seems more and more like the right thing ; but then again what to do of regrinds ? regrind should ideally be "one patch out of many"
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 21:42 phf: we also at some point had a thread, where i believe ascii but also others were leaning towards the idea of a single file vpatches (i.e. that a vpatch should only ever contain hunks for a single file). i'm starting to think that multi-file solutions in general are a hack ("we can't fit the entire compilation in memory"), but then i've been looking at TeX on one hand, and the "millions of support files" in diff/patch on the other
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758800 << this was re http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-25#1758556
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 22:02 danielpbarron: relatedly, l0de expressed interest in running a "trilema infomercial" on his show. I told him he should bring it up in here, as i'm not sure what that should entail
a111: Logged on 2017-12-25 19:34 mircea_popescu: and speaking of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-25#1758548 anyone got any ideas of how to meaningfully support the SW hobbist ?
mircea_popescu: my original thought was "can we do something like the tits drip but for sw enthusiasts instead ?" ; alf pointed out thatr well, carrierless issue.
mircea_popescu: if anyone's got an idea of how to construct the item though i'd much like to hear.
mircea_popescu: basically something like "do x, get y" with a well chosen x.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758811 << how's danielpbarron 's radio voice ?
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 22:14 l0de: Or you can have someone call in to read a statement
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758815 << do it in castellan, maximum lulz.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 22:19 shinohai: Assuming I can find one that speaks English nowadays ..... xD
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758819 << she kinda got sent off for NOT being looking dedicatedly enough ; then she got pissy because i imagine in her dumb head she had self-delusions as to self-importance as dear as they were baseless.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 22:22 danielpbarron: wasn't indiancandy/sofiababy looking for a way to make bitcoin?
mircea_popescu: if we had a chinese girl that'd work, except, of course...
shinohai: Yeah sofiababy left in huff, just noticed she had pm'd me to find her on skype but cba with that.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758841 << the real mega-puzzler is , what if anything are they capable of that is of any use whatsoever.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 23:05 mircea_popescu: basically something like "do x, get y" with a well chosen x.
asciilifeform: currently i know of nothing.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758839 << asciilifeform did a bit of survey of the sw spectrum ( where he lives , but also elsewhere, via helpful public toilet ip-streamed receivers. ) plenty of digital ???? in'ere. incl. in places where none 'ought', Officially, to be. but 1) could just as easily be usg 2) it's all, definitionally, carriered signal, or asciilifeform would never have learned of it
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 23:04 mircea_popescu: my original thought was "can we do something like the tits drip but for sw enthusiasts instead ?" ; alf pointed out thatr well, carrierless issue.
asciilifeform: but observation is that plenty of folx are, i suspect, already 'pirating'
asciilifeform: the usg polizei prioritize the voice pirates, because they compete directly with the usg 'music' monopoly
asciilifeform: the problem with voice pirates, any and all who have ever at any point lived, is that they are reddit.
asciilifeform: i suspect that not 1 could follow, e.g., the apeloyee noise floor thread.
asciilifeform: or even suspect why he oughta.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758834 << it is not clear to me why the current scheme ( leaving aside the idiocies of unix diff/patch, in particular the file moves thing ) is not satisfactory. i dun subscribe to the 'force beauty through mechanism' school of thought. it is the job of the patch author to make it behave acceptably in the target vtree, ~before~ releasing. and failures are of the author, not of the mechanicals.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 23:02 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758790 << especially in the light of 1. move/rename 2. edit double-patch method this seems more and more like the right thing ; but then again what to do of regrinds ? regrind should ideally be "one patch out of many"
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758809 << i gotta ask : why ?
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 22:06 l0de: to get viewers of my show interested in their political goals
asciilifeform: let's say every homo redditus alive -- suddenly interested. then WHAT? what's gained, other than a great mass of meat that now gotta be put somewhere far from the reactor rods
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758788 >> 'The founder also promised that in addition to the common practice of crediting BTC holders with equivalent balances of the new coin (B2X), they would also receive “a proportional number of Satoshi Nakamoto’s Bitcoins as a reward for their commitment to progress.”' << lol!!
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 21:41 shinohai: http://archive.is/RCrU9
shinohai: Socialism at it's finest right here.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758789 << ben_vulpes if you look at phf's patch tree graphical viewer, you will realize how asciilifeform solved this problem
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 21:42 ben_vulpes: phf: this exposes another problem: in ideal vtronics it is an illegal operation to press to multiple leaves at the same tree level, which is the only way to have a codebase against which to create a makefiles-type patch that ties multiple patches together
asciilifeform: ( it was , naturally, by having , at least in the early history, the tree from which each of the 'sibling' patches was produced, on account of having produced'em ) .
asciilifeform: but you can replicate same effect by pressing by the press rules, and then copying by hand.
asciilifeform: which, in the whole picture, does not come close to topping the list of the hardest labours of a trb experimenter
asciilifeform: a v user is expected to do ~almost all~ of his manipulations, via manual file management.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758781 << this only oughta be done in 2 situations -- 'releases' , as discussed by mod6 et al ; and to avoid fuckuppy as seen in orig shiva patch, where there was a logical dependence , but not a vtronic one , b/w shiva-part1 and -part2
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 21:36 ben_vulpes: this still leaves me in the pickle of producing a vpatch from a press to a that won't actually descend linearly from a without touching a file, and adding "this line necessary to ensure this vpatch descends from a and not genesis"
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758790 << this'd eat away substantially at the human-readability of the vpatch. which imho is a key property.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 21:42 phf: we also at some point had a thread, where i believe ascii but also others were leaning towards the idea of a single file vpatches (i.e. that a vpatch should only ever contain hunks for a single file). i'm starting to think that multi-file solutions in general are a hack ("we can't fit the entire compilation in memory"), but then i've been looking at TeX on one hand, and the "millions of support files" in diff/patch on the other
asciilifeform: i should not need to look for a meta-document (with own sig, presumably) to know which group of patchons constitutes e.g. 'asciilifeform_dns_thermonyukyoolar_kleansing' .
asciilifeform: i would like everybody who is itching to change the way v fundamentally works, to sit down and think about why we ain't using 'git' etc.
asciilifeform: every time think of a possible change : think, does this take it in the direction of heathendom ? can it still make a patch like http://btcbase.org/patches/asciilifeform_aggressive_pushgetblocks , where it is hammer-in-your-face-obvious to the reader that every single fucking line does ?
asciilifeform: and how big will be the vtron ? mine was <400 lines. imho this is worth something. and every feature added, comes at a cost.
asciilifeform: *what every
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758779 << i see e.g. trb tree, as the frayed end of a rope. in long term, observe, the loose ends that dun get built on -- fade away, like orphan chains. btc is actually more or less same kind of system. but iirc we had this thread.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 21:31 mircea_popescu: imo "tree" MUST be linear.
asciilifeform: ( i.e. it is already inescapably linear. asciilifeform half-expected that the kakoschism would produce a long-playing split of the trb universe, but neverhappened. not every possible thing, happens... )
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758770 << this is not unlike poking out one of your eyes to save on eyeglasses cost.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 21:22 trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758679 << to my mind this suggests the hashes present in vpatch blocks are wrong. if they were rather the hash of the entire concatenation of the diffed item before and after applying that block, there'd be no need to pointlessly edit files to continue on the same branch.
asciilifeform: i ~like~ that it is clear what parts of a whole were changed, and what -- left alone.
asciilifeform: what is with this eagerness to pointlessly blunt the knife. i dunget it !
MTW: back
MTW: [16:55:48] <+trinque> danielpbarron: your boy MTW all set?
MTW: yep
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: ( trinque ? ) what ~concrete~ operation on trb tree did v-as-it-nao-exists keep you from easily carrying out ? i'd like to see ?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758753 << i misread : 'platypus'. wouldn't be surprised...
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 20:29 mircea_popescu just dumped a whole sack of coal on teh grill, teh girls happily cleanning up a grosse of pleurotus... if anyone needs me ima be at teh rancho bbqing.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758743 << this historically worked CONSIDERABLY better than 'let's throw the reddit toilet into reverse gear and see what crawls out of the pipe'
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 19:48 mircea_popescu: more practically, voice will be acquired via introduction by lord, ie, court presentation.
asciilifeform: in other noose, zoolag with 'aggression' : walked from 484621 to 495973 in ~60 hrs.
asciilifeform: which is roughly 4x the typical ( thing's been floundering since late august ) rate.
asciilifeform: in other arcana, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2051&cpage=1#comment-18448 .
asciilifeform: ^ can anybody suggest a working variant ?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758681 << if there existed anything like a market in (reasonably recent) miners -- they'd already be installed at the plant, in place of those gigantic resistors . ( and iirc there was a mircea_popescu thread, involving e.g. fish ponds )
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 18:15 ben_vulpes: and in other profitable mining strategies: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/25/business/energy-environment/germany-electricity-negative-prices.html
asciilifeform finally ate l0g.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758859 << gotta get SOME filtering process in place though
a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 00:03 asciilifeform: or even suspect why he oughta.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758864 << you engage in a category error. you don't know what's in the box BEFORE opening the box.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 00:06 asciilifeform: let's say every homo redditus alive -- suddenly interested. then WHAT? what's gained, other than a great mass of meat that now gotta be put somewhere far from the reactor rods
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758883 << sure. in the sense blockchain is frayed rope, this also.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 00:23 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758779 << i see e.g. trb tree, as the frayed end of a rope. in long term, observe, the loose ends that dun get built on -- fade away, like orphan chains. btc is actually more or less same kind of system. but iirc we had this thread.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758894 << portobello not pleurotus anyway.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 00:28 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758753 << i misread : 'platypus'. wouldn't be surprised...
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758901 << what's the problem with a "wasted" FZ anyway
a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 00:34 asciilifeform: ^ can anybody suggest a working variant ?
mircea_popescu: anyway, maybe the correct approach re the l0de thing would be something like a simulcast interview. you do interviews l0de ?
mircea_popescu: !!up l0de
deedbot: l0de voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: !!key l0de
deedbot: Not registered.
mircea_popescu: if you register a key you can self-voice don't have to keep doing this voicing thing
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 15627.96, vol: 14963.98271799 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 15685.0, vol: 64040.84715043 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 15811.4, vol: 3687.11992386 | Volume-weighted last average: 15680.3140104
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758819 << she kinda got sent off for NOT being looking dedicatedly enough ; then she got pissy because i imagine in her dumb head she had self-delusions as to self-importance as dear as they were baseless. << Ah, gets BTC once returns years later and has less sense and more ideas
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 22:22 danielpbarron: wasn't indiancandy/sofiababy looking for a way to make bitcoin?
mircea_popescu: a sense of confort, the common woman's mindeater.
BingoBoingo: Hence the spankings and vacuum cleaner tube
BingoBoingo: Anyways thinking on the noob roughing up earlier, could be a side effect of tranquility overdose. Gotta torture betas.
mircea_popescu: take it ezzy.
BingoBoingo: as per http://trilema.com/2016/a-complete-theory-of-politics/
BingoBoingo: But will see what esta semana brings
BingoBoingo: Will probably start upping the blog frequency to let some more vemon out
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo ftr, .6 out of 1.3 is more like 45^
BingoBoingo: Ah, I did the math the other way, Gracias
mircea_popescu: anyway, personally launched lb+ "polvoras" ie fireworks here.
mircea_popescu: damned thing was the size of a god damned depth charge
mircea_popescu: 20bux in the chinoshop
BingoBoingo: Nice
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758907 << the reason engineering is even possible , is that it is not necessary to open ~every~ box. sometimes can form quite accurate picture without spending whole life opening boxes, eating every rotten egg top to bottom etc
a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 00:45 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758864 << you engage in a category error. you don't know what's in the box BEFORE opening the box.
BingoBoingo: Eh, give it 10 years and everything Republican will be inconel while the last USG trinkets come in Chinese potmetal
BingoBoingo: Makes engineering physical things easier
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758913 << it's not the wasted 8kbit or whatnot ( though on e.g. fpga, that's real waste that you can take to the bank...) but the ~ugliness~
a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 00:49 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758901 << what's the problem with a "wasted" FZ anyway
asciilifeform: ffa is, among other things, an experiment with minimizing theugly.
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758909 << if vtronic software is the same frayed rope, no one can ever modularize within the same v-tree. this may be a feature.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 00:46 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758883 << sure. in the sense blockchain is frayed rope, this also.
trinque: it again runs into the unix idiocy of "file", though, because file does sometimes mean module, sometimes means subcomponent of module.
trinque: in either case, what does asciilifeform think of the ritual of "add comment to unrelated file to merge paths", not symptomatic of a problem?
asciilifeform: trinque: i actually put a good bit of thought into the vtronic shape of ffa, while rewriting it ( current-day ffa , observe, is a rewrite, largely by hand, of the previous )
asciilifeform: trinque: it is only a problem if people do it unthinkingly, without understanding when to, when not to, and why
trinque: answer could be "trb was fucked from birth, let us not allow backflow into V"
asciilifeform: ^
trinque: so then, when things get so modular that you have frayed rope, author makes clean separation, as V has told him he has distinct items.
asciilifeform: shiva series was imho great example of 'coarse error in pilotage' re this thread
trinque notes that this comes up within days of the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-21#1756072
a111: Logged on 2017-12-21 17:38 mircea_popescu: anyway, continuing the trinque discussion, it seems entirely unavoidable that trb will become 3 things : a wallet node, optimized for pumping out local signed tx ; a block node, optimized for keeping the blockchain, getting blocks, no mempool nonsense ; and a spy node, optimized to keeping track of the lies and nonsense flowing through the relay network (mempool, timing nodes, what have you).
asciilifeform: asciilifeform introduced the schemetron 1st, and only 2nd the glue in trb, and they were not automagically v-linked
asciilifeform: that was a case when 'put in a comment to align vtronics and semantics' would have been The Right Thing
trinque: what is the meaning of the hashes in a vpatch?
trinque: should someone pressing think he has a coherent whole after pressing any patch? if not why?
asciilifeform: vpatch is meaningless without its ancestry
asciilifeform: down to genesis.
asciilifeform: and yes every patch oughta stand as a leaf, pressable to .
asciilifeform: hence 'coarse error of pilotage' in re shiva
trinque: only way to make a 3rd improvement rely on two distinct improvements in past is to put cruft in both.
asciilifeform: ( btw is there an engl. equiv of that term ? i'd like to learn it )
trinque: if not http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758770
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 21:22 trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758679 << to my mind this suggests the hashes present in vpatch blocks are wrong. if they were rather the hash of the entire concatenation of the diffed item before and after applying that block, there'd be no need to pointlessly edit files to continue on the same branch.
asciilifeform: trinque: i'd go as far as to say that what you're observing is a defect in cpp, not v.
trinque: to my mind the hash is currently putting too narrow a constraint on the context within which the current patch is to be applied, where we could broaden the context at no detrimental, and possibly beneficial cost
asciilifeform: semantic linkage in prog lang oughta align with v. not vice versa.
trinque: asciilifeform: is possible, but deserves to be in the logs
asciilifeform: trinque: if you have concrete algo to align these -- i'm all ears
asciilifeform: i'd like to encourage trinque to put some of his 'crackpot' algos 'to paper', as articles. the hypertext thing was interesting imho, for instance, and so was earlier trinque pill for 'mining is a bug', and possibly other occasions. dun be afraid to write down conjectures, trinque , gauss did
trinque tends many fires, but knows he owes a few posts
asciilifeform: and especially this one, v that understands entity introductions / uses, semantic linkage aligned with v-flow ... i'd like to see it
asciilifeform: picture a kind of 'multiverse ada', where you dun call foo(bar), but instead foo:somepatchid(bar:somepatchid) etc, explicitly conforming to 'multiversism'...
asciilifeform: or, on other end of the possible, a vtron that somehow understands that a call of foo necessarily depends on the patch that birthed foo... and requires disambiguation only if >1 foo exists in the tree
asciilifeform: but this is reaching into the fantastic.
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1754425 << worth linking again.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 18:04 asciilifeform: we actually had the ast-diff thread, re phf's lisp diff lament.
asciilifeform: aha, pertains
trinque will put some pen to paper this evening
asciilifeform much looks forward to reading
shinohai: From the twatter lulz mines: http://archive.is/vE3ud
mircea_popescu: lmao fucktard. a) the "pirate party" scam utterly fucking failed, how about addressing THAT ; b) kinda hard to have anyone ditch an empty ship, huh.
mircea_popescu: "hey, aren't you worried your shitcoin will get altcoin'd in the near future ?" "no, i am dog and i don't understand anything. vote me!"
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758945 << explain what modularize means here ?
a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 01:41 trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758909 << if vtronic software is the same frayed rope, no one can ever modularize within the same v-tree. this may be a feature.
trinque: means for example that db-interaction routines are in one file, network interactions in another.
mircea_popescu: and how can one not modularize ?
trinque: cannot without the 'add comment to files you needed' ritual
trinque: I'm actually writing right now on how the hypertext thing relates
mircea_popescu: let me put it this way, maybe resolves problem : v unpermits a specific kind of hack within the purview of this discussion, wherein one tries to design after the fact. correctly designed items will have the larger bits (by footprint) earlier in the patch tree ; and fray out correctly. github-style nonsensica commonly attempts to discover that "hey, this johnny come lately item should have been an evie-comes-early MODULE, let'
mircea_popescu: s hack it backwards in time".
mircea_popescu: v doesn't permit this backwards in time ; and if you run in this situation where johnny needs an experts' sex change to become evvie, it's high fucking time you hand-rewrote your whole steaming pile of crap.
mircea_popescu: now, is this enforcement a problem with v, is the proposition ? or is the aforegoing a misrepresentation of the discussion ?
trinque: this is what I meant actually, by "can't modularize" within same walk of the v tree
trinque: trb's database interactions are properly in a filesystem-implementing walk of graph of human knowledge
mircea_popescu: well, i am kind of a fan of the whole "v doesn't permit you to lie to yourself about having supposedly designed what's utterly an ad-hoc item".
trinque: network in a generic gossipd press path
mircea_popescu: ie it takes a major regrind ?
trinque: in that these are distinct items.
trinque: these aren't "trb" except in shitworld
mircea_popescu: there's nothing wrong either in principle or in practice with making a correct item as the genesis and then patching in various parts of trb.
mircea_popescu: it's after all what diana_coman is doing for eulora.
mircea_popescu: ie, i don't expect the trb cut as described to have a trb genesis necessariyl, or even probably.
asciilifeform: if it dun have a trb genesis, proving to proverbial martian that it really does have classical 0.5.3 pedigree, goes from trivial to monumentallypainful
trinque: anyhow lemme run at it again. you can't modularize because you have to fake work in a disparate part of the tree to merge
mircea_popescu: so for instance, "genesis a proper db ; then patch in three different branches for the three different types of node envisaged" doesn't seem on the face problematic.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i intend to prove no such thing to no such martian.
asciilifeform: then why v at all
mircea_popescu: under the authority of the republic ; not trying to enact selves out of the well threadbare wizard cloak of satoshi.
trinque: asciilifeform: as a carving tool for the graph of knowledge
trinque: doesn't mean you don't wholly remove sections and replace
mircea_popescu: whosoever deeply cares about the historically irrelevant accident of windows-bitcoin-0.1 is more than welcome to diff his own sources of that against tmsr-bitcoin
trinque: proper hypertext system (itself based upon v) provides the talmud commentary thing endlessly
mircea_popescu: relevancy is dearly bought ; man wanted to still be in the genesis of 2017, man should have made proper db calls, proper logs, etc.
mircea_popescu: man did not bother, which can only be rendered as "man told us in no uncertain terms to fuck off", well... the sentiment is mutual.
mircea_popescu: there's no difference i can observe between indiancandy scratching at the door and satoshi scratching at the door. there's a way to get in -- getting in "on their own terms" is not on the table at all.
mircea_popescu: as history ended up unfurling, "let's truncate hash to 10 chars or 20 chars depending" takes one from 2009 to some portion of 2018. better than nothing ; much less than could have been had, if only.
mircea_popescu: a lesson for all future minds in there.
trinque: back briefly on the frayed rope, what's harmful about naming an antecedent that you didn't edit, but require
mircea_popescu: specifically "do a good job in preference of a bad job, last longer".
mircea_popescu: trinque do you sign it ?
trinque: sure, in the vpatch would be "I require this list of antecedent items, subset S of which I intend to change thus"
mircea_popescu: if you signed it, then you read it. what matters what you edited ? moar of the same http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-05#1746388
a111: Logged on 2017-12-05 13:27 mircea_popescu: no but see, we use different terminology. i do not assign anything to "code written". the source of code, to my eyes, is he in the wot who has read it.
trinque: right, so if we could do this, name unchanged antecedents that are required, could merge A's log patch and B's db patch in C's subsequent patch without having to manually edit A's or B's
trinque: takes what constitutes context for the patch and puts it in the hand of the operator
mircea_popescu: in preference of regrinding the item ?
trinque: I don't see that regrinding solves it
mircea_popescu: why not ?
trinque: current V requires that a file actually got edited to be an antecedent, but C editing B's work does not mean he's discarding A's, and A regrinding his patch means editing something edited in C to get in
trinque: because the hashes are hashes of touched files
mircea_popescu: let's make a working model here.
mircea_popescu: so suppose lord X makes tree A : A1->A2->A3->A4 are patches, delivering some kind of utility we don't care to specify.
mircea_popescu: now suppose lord Y comes along, and similarily makes B : B1->B2->B3->B4.
mircea_popescu: then along comes lord Z, and this lord Z observes that if he used B3 and instead of B4 installed C4 on the same top, he'd get a wholly different but entirely useful to him item. so he makes this.
mircea_popescu: at this moment, if lord K observes that he could use the tree of X up to A2 and the tree of Y up to A3 ~together~ he could install D4 on this pile and similarily to Z produce a different still useful item.
mircea_popescu: toghether so far ?
trinque: following.
trinque: how did he do that merge?
mircea_popescu: now, the v doctrine as it stands right now, both on logs and actual precedent, at least as far as i understand it (but this is vacuous both as a representation and as a history, as most important questions haven't yet been seriously tested) -- is that Z is right to simply sign a patch on B-genesis ;
trinque: I assume you mean A2 and B3
mircea_popescu: whereas K would be wrong to attempt same, and instead should regrind a whole new genesis, call it D, even if it is made up of the reunion of the As and Bs he uses.
mircea_popescu: is this contentious ?
trinque: why prefer this to being capable to merge?
mircea_popescu: the burden where it belongs -- why permit merges ?
mircea_popescu: what i mean by http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758994 is specifically that i suspect the ONLY reason one might wish to merge is that one failed to design the item he's hacking.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 03:43 mircea_popescu: let me put it this way, maybe resolves problem : v unpermits a specific kind of hack within the purview of this discussion, wherein one tries to design after the fact. correctly designed items will have the larger bits (by footprint) earlier in the patch tree ; and fray out correctly. github-style nonsensica commonly attempts to discover that "hey, this johnny come lately item should have been an evie-comes-early MODULE, let'
mircea_popescu: is there a different reason ?
trinque: hm. I may be learning something here, so bear with me.
trinque: as I cannot put a definition to merge that is not "destroyed vertex on this graph, because it was by my lights wrong, and created a new one"
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1759045 << correct, misspelled.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 04:02 trinque: I assume you mean A2 and B3
mircea_popescu: trinque which is a valid thing to do, but NOT if one wishes to at the same timeeschew regrinding/genesising
mircea_popescu: because why.
mircea_popescu: and in unrelated lets-suck-our-own-cocks-we-utterly-deserve-it : consider that the whole l0de thing started because someone from here checked out a SPAMMED item. the fuctard/pantsuit "engineers" in name only in EVERY OTHER fucking channel ~think~ themselves all open-minded and intelligent and whatever, yet i can make a very obviously correct and banal prediction - they wouldn't have followed it, nor in any case escalated and
mircea_popescu: so on. because "it's spam" and that means "it shouldn't be read" and they actually have a consensus on this, which they idiotically but universally misrepresent as somehow different from any other cultish behaviour, such as believing "racism" or "global warming" or "witchcraft" are things.
mircea_popescu: somehow the voice model makes spam such a rarity in #trilema, people actually have the mental vigour to evaluate it!
trinque: specifically what people have been doing when "regrinding" is adding comments to unrelated files and thus including their patch in the tree.
mircea_popescu: whereas the pantsuit psychotic cleaving, where ~some kinds~ of spam are spam (ostensibly because they came from russian hackers as per their bayesian filters ?) whereas some other kinds of spam magicaloly "aren't spam" somehow, because pravda said it, or some "transgender" schmuck said it, or whatever.
mircea_popescu: trinque there's an ambiguity here i'm possibly responsible for though not intended : to "regrind", ie to take a pile of patches and make them into one single patch ; as opposed to re-genesis, which is what happened with eg mpi.
trinque: that is what I mean by a merge, and has the same result.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758965 << this is exactly what's discussed in http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-26#1758702 : only way to recover code in a heretic patch (ie, one you're not pressing upon) is to literally lift it and include it.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 01:52 trinque: only way to make a 3rd improvement rely on two distinct improvements in past is to put cruft in both.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-26 18:26 mircea_popescu: so as the reconciler, you get to pick which of ~either~ a ~or~ b to count in your considered oppinion as the republican and which as the heretic.
mircea_popescu: if the patch tree goes a1->a2->a3/a3` your position is now to choose which of a3 or a3` counts, and which doesn't count. the discarded one may be scavenged for useful content, but it will never be a proper patch.
mircea_popescu: because the tree will continue and NOT upon it.
mircea_popescu: (this results in an immediate reimplementation of eg's linus torvald's linux codebase management, except properly and per protocol rather than ad-hoc and in a manner nobody can explain or meaningfully defend)
trinque: yes, but the method of inclusion by diddling unrelated file is frivolous and less meaningful than explicitly denoting the relationship
mircea_popescu: there's still a disconnect because i don't understand what the hell you mean.
trinque: which is where I got to "concatenate whole cppwad and hash that" as that's your cpp program anyway.
ben_vulpes: a3 and a3' can touch a disjoint set of files and never be depended upon by an a4 without mutating unrelated files to ensure dependency is properly codified.
mircea_popescu: it doesn't matter which files they touch. a4 will build upon one of them, and then a5 on a4, and the unbuild upon one is left as a "fray" on the rope.
trinque: "I edited the networking code and added better logging statements which requires the better logging code on fray, but I didn't edit the logging code."
mircea_popescu: ok
ben_vulpes: so then for a3' to be an a4, it must touch an unrelated file in a3, forever crufting up the codebase with v artifacts.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes oh it finally dawned on me what this is about. sorry it takes so long.
ben_vulpes snaps keyboard, retires, drowns children, shoots self
ben_vulpes: great
ben_vulpes: that only took a day
trinque: poar poar keyboard
mircea_popescu: so the idea is, you got up to a2, which consists of files F1... Fi ; now one patch call it a3 touches file Fj, and another patch call it a3` touches file Fk
mircea_popescu: the ~only way to establish a lineage among these two so a3` is properly a4 is if the patch is spuriously modified to add a "hey v sucks" comment in Fj
trinque: totally, if I have to edit something to name it as antecedent
mircea_popescu: because otherwise, touching entirely different filesets, their precedence can not currently be established as per extant v
ben_vulpes: aha
ben_vulpes relinks http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-25#1758590 for everyone to reread
a111: Logged on 2017-12-25 22:56 ben_vulpes: the specifics of this case is that increase_aggression_levels touches *only* net.cpp and excise_hash_truncations touches a whole lotta stuff but *not* net.cpp
mircea_popescu: hey, i spent most of the intervening day revelring! i have circumstrances!
mircea_popescu: anyway, and the proposed fix for this is to actually add a hash for the whole filebase in each patch ?
ben_vulpes: moreover i want to bring up another overlooked point which is that it is illegal to press a tree with these two patches side by side
trinque is only recently not a walking solution of wine and nog
trinque: mircea_popescu: yep, concatenate every single item in the path diff processed, use *that* hash as antecedent and that recalculated as expected.
mircea_popescu: trinque kitten trying to get into the backseat so i can play with her tits ever so briefly kissed my new suit pant's leg, now i have a typically indicative white spot on it. tbh i knida like the look of it.
mircea_popescu: trinque you need the file hashes per file though.
trinque: loller
mircea_popescu: how about a convention whereby all new genesises must contain a manifest.genesis file, which file will be constantly patched on each patchj, no exceptions, by adding a line which reads : "This is patch #x and the codebase hash is blabla".
mircea_popescu: this has the advantage that you can readily understand what any press is made of by looking in root.
ben_vulpes: hash of the patched codebase including the patched manifest with hash of patched codebase in it?
trinque: orobother
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes no, except .genesis :D
ben_vulpes: well then it's out of band, unsigned
mircea_popescu: no, it's signed. it simply is not used in the one spot where the codebase hash is calculated.
trinque: manifest can be the patch header nearly as is
mircea_popescu: trinque just about.
trinque: "let it be known that there are these files, with these hashes" "I have changed these; their hashes are now ..."
mircea_popescu: anyway, this'll need moar discussions, i'm not specifiying anything on dec 26th.
trinque: and yet, I can see the entire thing from the other perspective still, that cpp is broken, trb itself not a single concept but a mud, etc
trinque: aha
mircea_popescu: trinque gotta force emergence of sanity through some sort of rational process.
mircea_popescu: otherwise what, we rebuild africa, "sonny we sat here and marveled at this mud for 955 generations"
mircea_popescu: phf asciilifeform diana_coman & others awake ^
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758974 << very much so ; and especially on a blog. there's utterly nothing wrong with being wrong, and discover it over time, especially if gracious about it. not like you sign the damned things, nor like the distinction isn't very fucking clear a a matter of public policy.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 01:58 asciilifeform: i'd like to encourage trinque to put some of his 'crackpot' algos 'to paper', as articles. the hypertext thing was interesting imho, for instance, and so was earlier trinque pill for 'mining is a bug', and possibly other occasions. dun be afraid to write down conjectures, trinque , gauss did
ben_vulpes: it'll need codebasehashprepatch and codebasehashpostpatch i think
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes conceivably. why ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-27#1758978 << waaay ahead of the wake, wildman!
a111: Logged on 2017-12-27 02:03 asciilifeform: or, on other end of the possible, a vtron that somehow understands that a call of foo necessarily depends on the patch that birthed foo... and requires disambiguation only if >1 foo exists in the tree
mircea_popescu: flying cities first.
ben_vulpes: (it's an urbit, and presumably others crackpottery)
ben_vulpes: how is a4 to indicate that it needs both a3 and a3' otherwise?
mircea_popescu: no such both. a3` is to be a4, your a4 to be a5.
ben_vulpes: putting the codebasehash in headers doesn't work then, as there is no 'file that will always be touched' that is a part of v to participate in the toposort
mircea_popescu: genesis.manifest
ben_vulpes: okay, let's work it
ben_vulpes: i'll have to doodle, cannot do this live
mircea_popescu: np
trinque: hm. the manifest also gives you a place to name blobs.
trinque probably at a point to digest also
trinque: but specifically, blobs not included. "and you will need the debian 2002 iso; go find"
trinque: ^ cuntoo direly wants this
mircea_popescu: wait what ?
mircea_popescu envisaged the genesis.manifest as wholly mechanical item, just a patch-per-line count of patches, no space to adlib.
trinque: my cuntoo installer script requires some what, 500mb of wads of other items that are not text, or useless.
mircea_popescu: yeah.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: okay, i geddit. do it as the first step of vdiff, so the mutation shows up
mircea_popescu: right
ben_vulpes: question then becomes how to get the patchtitle into .manifest
mircea_popescu: title ?
trinque: why not have one file, manifest, and you edit it, then vdiff the whole shebang.
ben_vulpes: oh you said "patch # and the codebase hash is..."
ben_vulpes: comedy option: vpatch names are now the hash of the resulting codebase
mircea_popescu: trinque because it'll get a mess ; ben_vulpes it's just a counter. increments 1 from prev line. shall i do a sample pastebin ?
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: no need
trinque: can have a tool to edit it sure, but then that's the file that's being edited no matter what else is edited, and there's a coherent history based primarily upon a list denoting what's considered a thing at time of patch
mircea_popescu: trinque arbitrary-content manifests will become a mess of random.

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