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← 2022-04-08 | 2022-04-10 → ↓
signpost: phf: asciilifeform: I'm just using "zero water" filters with their large glass dispenser.
signpost: no fancy rig on the house, though have considered it because austin water is very hard.
signpost afk, sleep
mats: ive been delaying getting an ro system but i guess its time
mats: after doing some research i think it'll be this one, on account of the wqa gold seal certification https://www.freedrinkingwater.com/ro-hi-detail.htm
mangol: http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-04-09#1094479 << blm was activated in 2016 and 2020 to discredit trump (who was popular with blacks who wanted jobs). not clear what specific occasion blm was started for in 2014
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-08 17:43:07 verisimilitude: Niggers burning down cities and destroying small businesses are just protesting, however.
dulapbot: Logged on 2019-12-02 02:26:44 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: disappointing, but unsurprising. in usa also riots ~always like that -- the designated 'kindling' (i.e. slums) burn, and (almost...) never the skyscrapers.
mangol: "occupy wall street" was skyscraper riot, they tried to enter buildings but driven away by private security
mangol: rioting in the street in front of skyscrapers = probably something the elite would reserve for photo op in truly desperate circumstances only
mangol: as for the rioters that are actually violent, weren't they mostly paid goons in blm and similar 'protests'?
mangol: antifa and the like
phf: mangol: you haven't spent enough time in marginal communities. there's no need to pay for violence, you just need stand down orders for the police
phf: it was too far for me to drive during blm to observe the happenings closely, but when i did make it into the fray, i saw all the usual types from my rambunctious youth: crusties, bike messengers, black flag punks, variety of dodgy ass dudes with prior convictions
phf: violent guys on the left are often the kind of guys who'll bum you for cigarettes at events, "hey maaaan", and if you're become friends with them you'll get dragged into a weird chaos of "man my car broke down, but my girlfriend is strung out and can't pick me up, but i need to go pick some shit up from mikey, you know mikey" etc.
phf: they are hainas, they beat their girls, and they get beat up by criminals they associate with, but they are particularly effective in a group
phf: like look at the antagonists in the kenosha incident, imho highly representative, a petty thief, a pedophile, and a guy with a history of domestic abuse. and that's a random sample, right?
mangol: a random sample of antifa looks about the same
phf: for people like that violence is opportunistic and spontaneous, give them space to operate, and they will very rapidly create a post-apocalyptic landscape for you, "fiery but mostly peaceful". i mean that's what marginal festivals and parties devolve into on its own.
phf: tod seelie has been documenting marginal cultures through the early 2000s, and i'm partial to his stuff, because i've been to all the same parties, photos of people i knew in his e.g. "bright nights". you had a few downshift interlopers like myself, but you mostly had people with fucked up backgrounds, white trash, parents are alcoholics, cousins are junkies. some, basically at a core decent invidividuals, have transcendent their
phf: background. but there was also a lot of dudes (and girls), who were fucked in the head, and a lot of people who succumbed to hard drugs.
asciilifeform not meat-handshaked w/ subj, but at one pt when 'occupy'(tm)(r) was geographically convenient to walk into, habitually went 'there', but consisted mostly of the 'passive sad' sort
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-09 10:59:20 phf: violent guys on the left are often the kind of guys who'll bum you for cigarettes at events, "hey maaaan", and if you're become friends with them you'll get dragged into a weird chaos of "man my car broke down, but my girlfriend is strung out and can't pick me up, but i need to go pick some shit up from mikey, you know mikey" etc.
phf: so a lot of that chaotic, destructive energy got wrangled, people grew up, or else od-ed (there was a whole period when friends of friends were od-ing left and right, around the time that we were all turning 27), but the ones that were particularly fucked in the head stayed in the scene, or by then had priors, and were forever marred
phf: /that's/ antifa :)
asciilifeform: the 'destructive energy', seems, most of the time directed against own kind, when usg not using'em as arsonist uses gasoline
phf: that's correct, destructive energy was always self-contained, and often cathartic.
asciilifeform: in '16, 'erryone' was expecting trump to set up a 'brownshirts' outta these. but nodice.
asciilifeform: (instead, as i gather, his curators -- set up)
phf: well, marginal culture was always leftist culture, was easier to radicalize them for the "progressive" causes.
asciilifeform: not clear that the ameri-lumpens all that susceptible to ideology. beyond 'heard that over-there can crack some windows / skulls w/out police getting in the way, let's go'
phf: asciilifeform: that's not the case at all. you have the standard red guard hierarchy
asciilifeform: phf: elaborate?
phf: back when i was in the scene you had a variety of idealogues, now reduced almost entirely to marxism
asciilifeform: near as asciilifeform was able to personally observe, the 'marxism' topped out at 'break some glass and maybe grab a tv from shop'
phf: asciilifeform: well, that's not the case on the ground. you've had the idealogues since forever, people with some spotty understanding of marxism, which is also their identity. i've had marx debates (mostly since i grew up in the system, i actually know what it says in the books, lol) at bike messenger parties in 2010
phf: these are also the people who set the agenda of a particular group, and are rsponsible for the political radicalization. now since this is also lumpeproletariat the ideology is simply used as a cover for criminal behavior, but the ideology is definitely there
phf: actually scratch that, there's also a lot of peaceful activism, soup kitchens, various forms of (often misguided) helping the minorities initiatives, community gardens, free yoga lessons. i mean everyone knows the tropes, but those are ideologically driven, primarily marxist
phf: the idealogues were also the conduit for such rapid transition to woke ideology, and it was a joint effort between a variety of activists, like feminists.
asciilifeform not penetrated 'into' subj anywhere near to phf's level, mostly recalls crowds of students, 'moar world, less bank' posters, 'phree palestine!', pamplets pushing ^ 'yogas', the rare broken window, folx scattering when police siren, etc
asciilifeform: during reign of bush ii, regular thing in washingtonistan. then asciilifeform one time tried to set one up himself -- theme: 'diebold stole '04 election'. glued spamola in various places, gathered maybe three dozen, the feminists/yogis didn't come, but, in tlp's words, 'felt like a trader^H^H^H^Hactivist'. interviewed by some fishwrap in front of whitehouse (/dev/null), eventually erryone went home and snoar.
asciilifeform: educational in re 'activism'.
phf: yeah see students were mostly not part of this, or at the very least if they were students, it wasn't their identity. students are lame :D
asciilifeform: was hands-on demo that phf was right
asciilifeform: (not that the 1e6-biped 'protests' summed to anyffin interesting imho)
phf: there's a documentary about salem (the witchhouse band) which is kind glimpse into the culture i'm talking about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOeAg4YVygQ
phf: it's the last generation of the american kids that got to enjoy the wealth surplus: there was not much of it, so they spent whatever they could on drugs and self-destructive partying
mangol: ^ the above matches my experience
mangol: almost none of them care about "marxism" as such. they care about common-sense "rights" for the "underrepresented". that's a good thing.
mangol: the bad thing is society will go down the toilet to the extent that the "underrepresented" actually get their "rights".
mangol: as for the concrete "activism", it's the same kind of thing you had around mp, or any other DIY revolution without elite backing. that's not about leftism.
mangol: normal people just can't do any "activism". if you do a lot of work, you have to set up businesses and other reich-moderated structured activities.
mangol: if you don't do that, what you get is parties, yard sales, things like that. the most anxious subset of the people will riot a little bit, but most of the people who gather around subcultures are there for the parties and yard sales, not subversion
mangol: antifa = the dregs of the most anxious subset, with elite backing
mangol: i'd imagine antifa at a place like kenosha is mostly random disaffected, with a few sponsored agitators (possibly unidentified) to rile them up
mangol: a recent twist is that some of the "underrepresented" are so well off, no matter how hard you try you just can't come up with any common-sense grievances by which they'd be "oppressed". that's where they take up maxrist-style conceptual weaseling and you get gender this-and-that
mangol: iirc one of the most recent branches was a bunch of wealthy kids deciding they are wolves, and that was some kind of "gender" or something. and they felt alienated because other people aren't gender-wolves
phf: mangol: just so that we're clear, i don't support this "very fine people on both sides" angle or the idea that violence came from paid people. which is the reason why i said all i said.
mangol: not only from paid people. george floyd was almost certainly not paid
mangol: where did you read in a "fine people on both sides" angle?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-09 13:04:37 mangol: if you don't do that, what you get is parties, yard sales, things like that. the most anxious subset of the people will riot a little bit, but most of the people who gather around subcultures are there for the parties and yard sales, not subversion
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-09 13:07:41 mangol: i'd imagine antifa at a place like kenosha is mostly random disaffected, with a few sponsored agitators (possibly unidentified) to rile them up
phf: the implication is that there's outside malevolent forces that goaded a bunch of basically nice people into doing bad things, unless i'm misreading, and you're prepared to deny that point
mangol: the kind of people who show up at blm riots are the most disturbed end of these subcultures
phf: i suppose i'll grant that it depends on whether or not you count the totaliy of people as subculture, or the core. if you're have "kill all cops" subculture, but at the long tail bulk of people are not really prepared to kill cops, they just in it for the clout, then you can maybe take such a gratious read. i'm claiming though thet the subcultures were inherently disturbed, come from disturbed roots, and represented themselves
phf: accurately on a public scene.
mangol: the core, or origin, probably disturbed. i mean, what kind of person starts a "crust punk" movement from nothing?
phf: i also believe that the least disturbed parts of the subcultures joined /for/ the disturbing parts e.g. che guevara t-shirts on college dweebs imply...
asciilifeform finds interesting that the 'marx' types in usa, so effectively ridden like sleds by the folx they're nominally in opposition to, that nearly all counter-marxist types see'em as entirely merged, and bloviate re 'usg is communist regime' a la mp
mangol: phf: joined for the disturbed parts in full knowledge of the consequences, or lived such sheltered lives that they think it's like a TV show
mangol: i suspect the latter. or alternatively, "madness of crowds", ~normal people go into a kind of fervor
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-09#1094540 << theoretically possible to non-reich-moderated biz, w/out the 'activism' wankage. but it won't happen unless actual hands materialize to make it.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-09 13:03:25 mangol: normal people just can't do any "activism". if you do a lot of work, you have to set up businesses and other reich-moderated structured activities.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-11-19 11:19:42 asciilifeform: signpost: re 'why pest' -- asciilifeform is a btc aficionado of the (nearly extinct, possib.) old school -- would like to live in world where can get paid in uninflating, untaxable coinz, and buy necessities of live in same. doubt that anyone living nao will live to see such thing, but asciilifeform specifically interested in work which could make it at least conceivable.
mangol: there's a conventional name for non-reich-moderated biz: crime :)
phf: mangol: gustave le bon wrote the definitive work on the subject that you're alluding to, psychologie des foules, psychology of the crowd, but his work should not be used for apologism. same is the point whether or not "thought it was real, or like video game".
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-09#1094556 << the 'movements', near as can tell, sum to 'brownian' motion. observe e.g. 'occupy'(tm) wankage flicked off like a lamp when the organizers achieved their actual aim, of being given minor academi-mandarinates
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-09 13:23:45 mangol: the core, or origin, probably disturbed. i mean, what kind of person starts a "crust punk" movement from nothing?
mangol: phf: you're unlikely to find any antifa sympathizers on a channel like this; no apologism implied
phf: mangol: nothing less than a total condemnation! :)
mangol: i'm more mellow than that
mangol: because i don't see these people as possessing full agency
asciilifeform: mangol: on the contrary, e.g. asciilifeform 100% sympathizes w/ 'kill the elite'. but e.g. 'antifa' seems to function 100% as 'brownshirts for dnc' and afaik at no point genuinely endangered a yacht rider.
mangol: in my experience, most people (even normal ones) live life by bouncing around at random. recursively, the ideas in their head bounce around at random.
phf: modern psychological perspective /is/ apologist in that. classical le bon position is that from moral perspective you've had to come out to begin with. now there's extra layer: came out because was deluted. can construct such chain all the way into all actions.
asciilifeform: ( i.e. the 'bifurcation' described by phf. there are heads walking around, w/ no hands; and hands walking around, with nuffin in the way of a head, 100% steerable into harmless (to yacht set) largely self-destructive 'activity')
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-05 22:15:43 phf: vex: man that's the same angle that asciilifeform is taking, and that's not what i'm ranting about. i'm lamenting about the bifurcation of human experience. either an egghead who knows life from books, or man of action who doesn't know his scylla from charybdis. i simply want other men in my life who both read the classics, and can go hunting from horseback :>
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-08 17:16:04 mats: https://archive.ph/qXlkX
mangol: phf: in most cases of deeply antisocial behavior, the original damage is genetic. e.g. an image search for "antifa mugshot" says it all
mangol: where not genetic, their childhood was deeply scarred. single parents with substance and violence issues, etc.
asciilifeform suspects lombroso wasn't entirely wrong
mangol: i don't see the point in condemning such people; nature condemns them, and many of them spend their whole lives condemning themselves
mangol: and if you condemn them, you're none the closer to removing the blm riots from society, because the latter are useful to elites
adlai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-07#1094002 << my favorite still is the one where a tourist couple asks a taxi driver for directions to a restaurant where they can get a salad; after a fragmented conversation in taxi-driver-english, driver radios station, asks (in hebrew), "How do you say Mekdonaldz in English?"
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-07 19:56:22 verisimilitude: Paging adlai, how are the advertisements in the promised land?
phf: mangol: condemnation is a social responsibility, the purpose of which is to contain the degeneracy (in the classical sense of the word). i don't mean in a biblical sense, but in the most basic "let's not burn things" "theft destroys communities" etc. kind of sense
adlai: bilingual advertisements are quite common, because of the large majority who understand basic spoken english
adlai: surprisingly, lots of recent advertisements are actually invitations to apply for jobs at tech companies; e.g., bus station billboard, "Seeking head of saying what everybody else already agrees with", or a bunch of python-valid punctuation marks, and then the name of a tech company.
mangol: phf: please reflect on asciilifeform's frequent allusions to "designated burn zone / picket zone", and the last psychiatrist's "if you're reading it, it's for you"
phf: mangol: go spin on a dick
mangol: you're working for the benefit of the establishment if you pay attention to all this crime and depravity
mangol: *pay attention in an emotionally involved way
mangol: because your emotional involvement will turn into some action that goes to /dev/null
mangol: and is subtracted from improving your personal life
adlai: ehh, mangol , I think you're exaggerating the rate at which mild rubbernecking turns into action. people can have an emotional response to something for a few minutes, then go on with their lives.
asciilifeform: mangol: imho obv. to anyone whose 'third eye' is even half-open, that reich cultivates 'lumpenization', promotes degeneracy, and actively curates 'movements' which sum to 'break coupla windows, steal coupla tvs, then go home and od on dope', neutralizing the 'active' and terrorizing the 'passive'
adlai: does having an emotional response - laughter, feeling of superiority, etc - to watching a cat video, instead of smoking a cigarette, benefit the establishment tentacle that now knows you laugh at cat videos?
adlai has rubbernecked at plenty of protests; does not consider having his cell phone counted in attendance statistics, and possibly his face blurry at the edge of a frame of some camera sweeping across bystanders, to benefit anyone
asciilifeform: adlai: broad subject -- e.g. the folx successfully herded into 'social media'(tm) with lolcats, yes, serve reich 'by watching lolcats'.
asciilifeform: (even ignoring the 'opium for the masses' aspect, where yer 'anesthetized')
adlai: arguably, slight benefit to my feeling of superiority towards folks who consume protest movements from their armchair in front of the TV; and detriment to folks working at crowd control, who have another peripheral biped to classify as harmless.
asciilifeform: 'rent is up 2.5x but hheey look theeere's a new lolcat'
shinohai: But I sold the new lolcat as an NFT and paid rent for a year.
asciilifeform: 'click on lolcat to learn how cruel putler decimated lolcats in mariupol' etc
mangol: of course reich promotes degeneracy and neutralizes the active. my point is, reich is very effective at suppressing active people who decide to stop being neutra
mangol: activism = you'll "unlock an achievement" in some social scoreboard, but your action won't materially affect society
adlai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-09#1094600 << this is what I meant by "benefit the establishment tentacle"; I guess it boils down to whether your smoke break involves rolling a cigarette with leaves grown in your garden, or buying a pack from the coke machine.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-09 13:51:24 asciilifeform: adlai: broad subject -- e.g. the folx successfully herded into 'social media'(tm) with lolcats, yes, serve reich 'by watching lolcats'.
asciilifeform: mangol: for so long as 'active' also means 'headless', there's nuffin to suppress
dulapbot: (trilema) 2014-06-11 asciilifeform: incidentally, old russian folk phrase for a fool, 'без царя в голове' - literally, 'without a king in his head' is useful & applicable
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-02-02 21:02:07 asciilifeform: still waiting for 'uprising' that isn't run by the usual mix of provocateurs and semiliterate roomtemp-iq waco fodders
asciilifeform: i.e. the scheme is powered by the 'bifurcation'.
adlai: I recall once reading some unexplained optimism that "rave culture will save humanity", and supposing that it serves a similar blowing off of excess energy in a similar way to an ultimately ineffective, yet undoudbtedly noisy, public protest.
adlai: one is similar to the Orwellian "Ten Minutes' Hate", the other, 'love', and neither accomplish much beyond invoking their namesake
mangol: asciilifeform: adlai: this was exactly what i meant
mangol: the sooner people realize all those silly protests feed the machine they are protesting, the sooner they wake up
asciilifeform: mangol: how do you picture result of 'wake up' ?
asciilifeform: ( i.e. what is there to 'wake up' to ? )
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-24 16:24:14 asciilifeform: well say a fella decides 'nyt is fulla shit, wish i could serve putin'. what's his next step.
mangol: asciilifeform: nothing that will hurt reich in sufficient numbers to stop it
mangol: but will at least help the individuals who wake up, since they'll stop fretting about things they can't change
mangol: i've met several burnt out idealists
phf: mangol: who are you, exactly?
phf: !!help
asciilifeform: !!rated mangol
deedbot: asciilifeform rated mangol 1 at 2022/03/16 08:51:45 << noob
asciilifeform: finn iirc
phf: !!ratings mangol
asciilifeform: !!seen cgra
deedbot: 2022/02/28 17:26:43 <cgra> http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-02-27#1081208 << close enough to ponder whether finland's next, or what was going on again
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-02-27 19:22:54 verisimilitude: Joking aside, is anyone here even near Russia?
asciilifeform: ^ possibly we're down to 1 finn
adlai laughs at joke about "there are actually three of them!!!!"
phf: man, i like finns, i went to korpiklaani concert in finland (was not in helsinki, so don't remember where), it was a lot of fun
adlai: somehow, that is one of my favorite jokes; first encountered before military service, only became funnier after seeing firsthand how average grunt is instructed
asciilifeform also fond of finns, esp. the kind willing to get hands dirty
phf: but reddit comes for all men!
asciilifeform survived reddit, a la smallpox, 'clean' for >decade
asciilifeform: unfortunately there aint atm any other 'vaccine' for reddit.
adlai: if you're referring to the site, rather than the phenomenon - 'vaccine' is probably the wrong metaphor.
asciilifeform: adlai: i expect he's referring to the broader concept
adlai: unless I'm mistaken, the phenomenon is equivalent to 'eternal september'.
adlai is reminded of opening paragraphs of Heinlein novel, where male protagonist laments at other male protagonist, "we should never have taught them to talk"
asciilifeform: the phenomenon, adlai , is where folx go 'where did the last decade of my life go', a la vodka but where the cirrhosis is in yer brain, not liver, and costs 0, and feels enuff like 'activity' to satisfy all kinds of folx w/out risking any actual constructive activity taking place.
adlai: anyway, my point is that a better metaphor might be the beekeeper's suit.
asciilifeform: adlai for instance is ever compulsively at work to recreate reddit in #a
adlai: by talking, and then telling myself I did something?
asciilifeform: adlai: when was last time you wrote a working proggy ? ( or mixed batch of cement, for fuxxsake? or even bought horse yet? )
phf: adlai: i'm refering to a kind of markov chain process that's halmark of internet conversation, "all things to all men", the point is to keep the conversation flowing and yourself involved, but not necessarily anything else. "oh you talking about horses? well i think that purebreads are superior to rocky mountains, because on wikipedia it says their hind legs have more twitch muscle. i've read a research paper on horses and let me tell
phf: you..."
adlai: long enough to leave now, because you are correct.
asciilifeform: wainot try put down the bottle , rather than 'ugh time to leave'
asciilifeform: even vex occasionally does, and says sumthing coherent
adlai will return, probably within a week
phf: oh no, i've been discovered! adlai, a familiar markov chain is always more welcome than strange one :D
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-09#1094584 I think I've seen this advertisement, or one like it.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-09 13:42:05 adlai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-07#1094002 << my favorite still is the one where a tourist couple asks a taxi driver for directions to a restaurant where they can get a salad; after a fragmented conversation in taxi-driver-english, driver radios station, asks (in hebrew), "How do you say Mekdonaldz in English?"
verisimilitude: I agree, asciilifeform; adlai should pay me to write a program.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-09 14:03:45 phf: man, i like finns, i went to korpiklaani concert in finland (was not in helsinki, so don't remember where), it was a lot of fun
verisimilitude: That was a quick week.
adlai: to reduce confusion: I don't disconnect from IRC, I /part from the channel, to reduce conversational complexity by advertising that, although I might read logs occasionally, the chance of me monitoring the conversation synchronously is negligible.
adlai will still read /query conversations, if anyone specifically needs his opinion; this is rare, although remains possible.
bitbot: Logged on 2022-04-09 18:03:23 asciilifeform: ^ possibly we're down to 1 finn
mangol: has the word "reddit" generalized to stand for usenet-style free-for-all wank?
mangol: in any medium
verisimilitude: Just consider the average Reddit user.
verisimilitude: ``Keanu Reeves, Big Chungus, wholesome, I fucking love science, I was raped by my wife's boyfriend''
mangol: is it really that bad?
verisimilitude: Yes; the last fragment is a quote.
mangol: the horror
mangol: so when people say you sound like reddit, they mean "please tone down the miscellany and get to the point (charitably assuming you have one)"?
verisimilitude: They mean ``stop being an insufferable faggot'', mangol.
mangol: i can't parse this stuff
mangol: ~zero idea of the context around any of this stuff. i feel like a boomer
verisimilitude: Tell me thine age, mangol.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-16 11:13:20 mangol: PeterL: i identify as an x-millennial
mangol: i think i've come across "I fucking love science" ages ago. the rest sound like some zoomer memes
mangol: the whole manner of conversation is foreign to me
verisimilitude: Well be we in Reddit?
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-09#1094502 << this is 100% correct. and what jobs they have, when they have them, were shuttered during covid lockdowns.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-09 10:56:27 phf: it was too far for me to drive during blm to observe the happenings closely, but when i did make it into the fray, i saw all the usual types from my rambunctious youth: crusties, bike messengers, black flag punks, variety of dodgy ass dudes with prior convictions
signpost: ain't hard to figure out what comes next.
signpost: pdx caught it worse than most because it's a haven for the lifestyle.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-09#1094522 << yep, years back the guy bringing the drugs might've considered marxism statist, and this was a problem for him.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-09 11:55:48 phf: back when i was in the scene you had a variety of idealogues, now reduced almost entirely to marxism
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-09 12:08:42 asciilifeform: during reign of bush ii, regular thing in washingtonistan. then asciilifeform one time tried to set one up himself -- theme: 'diebold stole '04 election'. glued spamola in various places, gathered maybe three dozen, the feminists/yogis didn't come, but, in tlp's words, 'felt like a trader^H^H^H^Hactivist'. interviewed by some fishwrap in front of whitehouse (/dev/null), eventually erryone went home and snoar.
crtdaydreams: signpost: kind reminder about wot key change :)
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-30 19:44:37 crtdaydreams: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=-kOa
crtdaydreams: no hurry, won't be able to continue pest setup for another ~wk~ or so anyways
crtdaydreams: just unsure about paste expiry
signpost: np, I said I'd do it and forgot again.
signpost: it's done now
signpost: website will update before long.
signpost: !!key crtdaydreams
crtdaydreams: thankies, appreciate it :)
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-07 19:18:59 vex: I've had what I assume is a similar why was I not informed? experience. I'd recently commissioned myself as master and commander of a modest sailing ship, and found myself in a state of perfect joy. I think I was almost able to utter those very words.
crtdaydreams: might be a bit choppy still
crtdaydreams: catamaran or proper vessel?
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-09#1094554 << acab was in portland black bloc culture the entire time, yes, and increasing.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-09 13:22:36 phf: i suppose i'll grant that it depends on whether or not you count the totaliy of people as subculture, or the core. if you're have "kill all cops" subculture, but at the long tail bulk of people are not really prepared to kill cops, they just in it for the clout, then you can maybe take such a gratious read. i'm claiming though thet the subcultures were inherently disturbed, come from disturbed roots, and represented themselves
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-09#1094559 << this is wrong, they come from wretched lives.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-09 13:27:06 mangol: phf: joined for the disturbed parts in full knowledge of the consequences, or lived such sheltered lives that they think it's like a TV show
signpost: child abuse, drugs, poverty, malnourishment, utter dregs.
signpost was a tourist at the periphery of some of these because it's where the psychedelics I wanted could be had.
crtdaydreams: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-09#1094573 << would like to point out that it's actually the opposite for at-least internet-types. rather I find that the `shouting into /dev/null' types are more iterative in a thought process. i.e. needs a sticker to tell em their not past their used-by
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-09 13:35:59 mangol: in my experience, most people (even normal ones) live life by bouncing around at random. recursively, the ideas in their head bounce around at random.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-09#1094571 << I wager RU peasant was considered a creature with zero agency, and whether this is true, doesn't seem to have stopped them from eventually devouring the rotted carcass atop.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-09 13:35:18 mangol: because i don't see these people as possessing full agency
crtdaydreams: have been writing on this note a criticism of Kazinsky's work
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-09 13:43:21 phf: mangol: condemnation is a social responsibility, the purpose of which is to contain the degeneracy (in the classical sense of the word). i don't mean in a biblical sense, but in the most basic "let's not burn things" "theft destroys communities" etc. kind of sense
signpost: one can baw about the conditions which produced such dregs; nevertheless they're there, and they do not mend.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-09 13:45:38 mangol: phf: please reflect on asciilifeform's frequent allusions to "designated burn zone / picket zone", and the last psychiatrist's "if you're reading it, it's for you"
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-09#1094591 << yes, one should keep his eyes forward and hope he doesn't also get knifed while walking through the tenderloin.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-09 13:46:28 mangol: you're working for the benefit of the establishment if you pay attention to all this crime and depravity
signpost: the villainy doesn't disappear when you close your eyes.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-09#1094607 << ever heard "it's a recession when your neighbor loses his job, and a depression when you lose yours"?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-09 13:54:52 mangol: activism = you'll "unlock an achievement" in some social scoreboard, but your action won't materially affect society
signpost: consider the equivalent in the category of social stability.
signpost: the idea that riots are mostly symbolic comes from a life with no experience of hunger/poverty.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-09#1094624 << near as I can tell, bright scheme guy who comes from a country where he's not allowed to say certain things.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-09 14:01:23 phf: mangol: who are you, exactly?
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-09#1094652 << "dear god I'm not alone, am I?" soothed by the rectangle reacting to you. if superficially, good, wont delve into the fear.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-09 14:10:50 phf: adlai: i'm refering to a kind of markov chain process that's halmark of internet conversation, "all things to all men", the point is to keep the conversation flowing and yourself involved, but not necessarily anything else. "oh you talking about horses? well i think that purebreads are superior to rocky mountains, because on wikipedia it says their hind legs have more twitch muscle. i've read a research paper on horses and let me tell
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-09 18:21:06 signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-09#1094607 << ever heard "it's a recession when your neighbor loses his job, and a depression when you lose yours"?
asciilifeform: (apropos phunphakt, and which gets unsurprisingly 0 anglo press -- in chunks of ukristan under ru reconquista, all mortgages cancelled)
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-09#1094737 << fwiw in ameri-riots, to date, looters dragging home tv's, rather than food
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-09 18:21:49 signpost: the idea that riots are mostly symbolic comes from a life with no experience of hunger/poverty.
asciilifeform: so easily 'symbolic' if yer outta range of the flying bricks
signpost: none of these are single cause events, but was speaking about the black bloc folks phf discussed.
crtdaydreams: add `oppression' to list, i.e. .hk
asciilifeform: hk was (failed) 'colour revolution'
asciilifeform: (why failed? presumably cn intel found & neutralized the traditionally present swedish snipers)
asciilifeform: ameri-riots to date are anuther thing entirely (designated unpoliced 'zone', e.g. bmore)
asciilifeform: 0 damage to e.g. the yacht yard
crtdaydreams: CHAZ hehehhe
asciilifeform: ( tho , if you've been to bmore, it's a 20min walk from 'red zone' where burn )
signpost: asciilifeform: portland rioters did hit the close-by suburbs.
crtdaydreams: s/rioters/looters/
asciilifeform not been to portland, cannot comment in depth. can believe
crtdaydreams: apparently in AU they've been using sonic weapons on the protesters outside parlaiment
signpost: in either case, lead-poisoned, petro-fed blacks stealing TVs, or black bloc bros committing arson, policing void is indeed the cause.
crtdaydreams was not there so cannot verify
crtdaydreams must go
signpost: sure, have these here too.
signpost: *the immediate cause.
signpost: asciilifeform: if they had any sense of history, portland blocbros would've run someone for mayor, used riots to keep normies out of the polls.
signpost: that person goes in, shuts down the rest of the policing, allows local councils to form to select "community leaders"
signpost: afaik nothing close was ever attempted.
signpost hasn't the slightest political affinity to these, thinks they should be exterminated, just emphasizing the ineptness.
mangol: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-09#1094737 << the outcome of riots is mostly symbolic, unless you have a truly massive amount of people
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-09 18:21:49 signpost: the idea that riots are mostly symbolic comes from a life with no experience of hunger/poverty.
mangol: successful mobilization of masses tends to be more structured than "hey, let's go riot over there"
mangol: really downtrodden rioters are sincere, yes. but that doesn't mean the outcome of the riot improves their lot
signpost: symbolic must mean something you're not saying outright, like "having no lasting impact on society"
mangol: yes - i said something to that effect upstack
signpost: decomposers don't do much for the goals of trees either.
signpost: or, they do, but in a broader sense.
mangol: if i was an evil overlord, i'd love the fact that the masses' energy is spent on fruitless riots where they divide themselves into antagonistic camps
mangol: lol
signpost doesn't see this at the level of political expression.
signpost: animal expression.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-09 10:59:20 phf: violent guys on the left are often the kind of guys who'll bum you for cigarettes at events, "hey maaaan", and if you're become friends with them you'll get dragged into a weird chaos of "man my car broke down, but my girlfriend is strung out and can't pick me up, but i need to go pick some shit up from mikey, you know mikey" etc.
signpost: as opposed to, say, bourgeois division into umpteen political factions.
signpost: the base animal hunger (which does not necessarily mean empty belly, but full of what? head full of what? etc) shared by all drives the consolidation
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-09 11:55:48 phf: back when i was in the scene you had a variety of idealogues, now reduced almost entirely to marxism
mangol: i agree with this portrait of an almost animal drive
mangol: a certain type of person feels they've been dealt a bad hand in life, and will find any excuse to see it as somebody else's fault
verisimilitude: What about when it truly be somebody else's fault?
signpost: what's fault have to do with it?
signpost: worthless creature's there, busted and worthless.
signpost: words mean nothing.
mangol: the fault justifies the violence against those who are at fault
mangol: the more messed up the sufferer, the more messed up the justification
signpost: the need for justness is at a higher level
signpost: fuck it dude, burn, rape, kill.
signpost bears teeth.
signpost: *bares
signpost: haven't even discussed the astonishing prevalence of mental illness yet.
mangol: yes, and being on substances all day every day
signpost: ever tried to reason with a severely mentally ill person?
verisimilitude: We use the same channel, signpost.
signpost chortles
signpost: one can go around and around; they may be able to state back to you why not to carve into their arm.
signpost: and then slice.
signpost: because something beneath the words, which the words cannot reach.
signpost: this is all of them, in their respective flavors of the brokenness.
mangol: in all fairness, how much more coherent is the ivy league graduate's oppression narrative than the blm aggressor's?
mangol: more articulate, but not necessarily more logical
signpost: latter can't be ruled with words, which is perhaps the dividing line between whatever else and peasantry.
mangol: http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-04-09#1094733 << indeed it doesn't. but should be met with a controlled response. the main problem is that reich has made it extremely difficult to craft one.
bitbot: Logged on 2022-04-09 22:16:19 signpost: the villainy doesn't disappear when you close your eyes.
mangol: they love an unhinged response to their trolling since it gives them cause to print shock articles about right-wing extremists
mangol: imho kenosha kyle acted constructively, as do the various people who gather evidence for lawsuits and school board meetings
mangol: but even those are a long shot. the law is regularly subverted
signpost: what does controlled mean to you there?
signpost: ftr, I like Kyle just fine, but sad that some kid with a borrowed rifle is all we had at that moment for social order.
asciilifeform: signpost: near as can tell, reich sank $over9000 into attempt to set up a 'ohnoez, rightwing extremists' show with corpses. and managed only handful.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-25 19:33:42 asciilifeform: is funny, how erry time they need to agitate for yr+, bus in over9000 morons of both hat colours into some shithole, and spend 1e8$ on provocateurs, to get 1-2 corpses
asciilifeform: ( most recently, in 'jan6 uprising'. where, despite heroic fbi provocateur to organic participant ratio, the only bullet was fired by 'mall cop' into some rando chix)
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-09#1094770 << over 1e6 warm bodies at the '03 'iraq protests'. 0 effect, the notion that '# of bodies' matters worth half a shit is a lul
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-09 18:50:17 mangol: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-09#1094737 << the outcome of riots is mostly symbolic, unless you have a truly massive amount of people
asciilifeform: make 0 diff if you have 1, 1e3, 1e6, or 1e9 , when they're holding pickets, rather than e.g. burning harvard and nyt nailed shut with the muppets inside
mats: i dunno, going without firearms nearly worked on jan6
asciilifeform: mats: describe the hypothetical 'worked'
mats: executions of pence and pelosi recorded on facebook live
asciilifeform: what'd it mean to 'worked' ? d00d w/ the horned helmet sits down in the presidential chair, becomes president magically, army shows up to hail him as emperor ?
asciilifeform: mats: what diff it'd make if they had strangled these talking heads ? is there a shortage of new ones ?
mats: working would concretely mean trump preventing transition of power to biden and doing a second term
asciilifeform: mats: how would the pictured scene have resulted in 2nd trump term ?
asciilifeform: ( ignoring for a moment the q of 'what diff would 2nd, 3rd, ... trump rerun make' )
mats: congress confirms him as potus
asciilifeform: mats: maybe missing something in the logic, but why would it have ?
mats: its a coup, there's no necessary logic
asciilifeform: moscow, '93
asciilifeform: in bg of pic -- the parliament.
asciilifeform: after eating coupla tank shells.
asciilifeform: ( they tried to remove eltsin )
mats: perhaps the crucial states that voted in favor of biden would have appointments of presidential electors owing to allegations of voter fraud
asciilifeform: compare w/ unarmed redditards , walking past mysteriously disinterested guards and breaking a few office furnitures.
asciilifeform: mats: observe how whole meme went to /dev/null
mats: and perhaps eventually congress and scotus get along with the program as some more holdouts get public executions
asciilifeform: (or to wherever '9/11 troof' et al live naodays)
mats: nobody who matters has seen consequences for that day
mats: there's time yet for a sequel
asciilifeform: can draw over9000 hypothetical portraits of 'coup in washingtonistan', but none of'em have much connection to the redditards-herded-by-fbi party held in the 'uprising'
mats: arguably the less violence there is, the more legitimacy is conferred on denial of transfer of power
mats: the voice of the common people, peacefully protesting in the seat of government
asciilifeform: but, importantly, even if martian spetsnaz parachuted in and killed literally all of the ceremonial officials, would make ~0 diff, their plug-in replacements would take office overnight & reich not skip a beat
asciilifeform: reich not actually run by the public heads.
asciilifeform: any moar than e.g. england, by queen
mats: i dont buy that government operation is an elaborate game of telephone with lizards in a switchboard room
mats: its a thought experiment, i know, ive read luttwak and understand the deep bench of the lib state makes proper coup mostly impossible
asciilifeform: mats: at this pt the logs span 2 sets of nominally opposite sets of washingtoni muppets. notice any serious change, visible to naked eye, in how reich operates , over this time ?
mats: but the world is built by men doing, not the men behind them doing the doing
asciilifeform: much of the 'doing' is structurally programmed.
mats: i never saw biden as an accelerationist until last month
asciilifeform: simply to take 1 screamingly obv. example, the setup where ~0.1% of reich owns ~all property and rents/mortgages it to the rest, at no pt was or will be up for vote in any elections
mats: trying to shut out the worlds largest commodities exporter from global trade is a structural change in the way the game is played
mats: the world is on the move
asciilifeform: mats: they've been trying since hrusch even started exporting
mats: we can now see the beginning of the end of globalization
mats: brb
verisimilitude: So, programming.
asciilifeform recalls (anyone have link?) a turkish lolclip, where after president gave speech, someone left camera running, and several cats climbed on the podium. iirc 1 even meowed into microphone. 'cat coup!'
asciilifeform loox fwd to the 'suppose the cats had succeeded! it almost worked!11' thread.
phf: i managed to not be at jan 6th because promissed girl a trip to banya..
phf: went to the one in nj, right outside of princeton, which is like hasidim central. out hotel had a party of the family of -stein, 200 maskless hasidim looking at all the masked patrons like they were lepers.
phf: banya was of course all deplorable (this was peak of covid mania) discussing current political situation
phf: so we're in a room, steaming, and discussing all things, twitter and trump and such. and there's a hasid sitting on the very top, face covered, just payos sticking out from the towel. in the silence of a pause of a heated conversation we suddenly hear the hasid saying with a very thick jewish accent: "i know how this goes. fest they come for the trhamp, and then they will come for the jews"
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