Hide Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2021-07-18 | 2021-07-20 → ↓
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046732 I anticipate being able to critique it, asciilifeform.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 20:45:31 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046518 << asciilifeform has been grinding out a spec for third wk nao. maybe 1/2 done at this pt. (had to, several times, throw away large chunks of algo, when chalkboard demonstrated that it was dud)
mats: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046740 << without going into more detail, speculative attack
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 20:48:51 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046547 << outta curiosity, for what need money to fight ? depending on what means 'to fight', some of these things e.g. asciilifeform did and does just find w/out money
mats: i still don't understand how you can think that the hash won't also follow if the price takes a 100x dive. power generation costs money. and what happens to confirmation times should hash go to 0.001 exabytes / if btcusd goes to $1 ? how many months or decades will it take for diff to ratchet down?
mats: and, the hash that gets turned off doesn't necessarily mean equipment is destroyed, it may be utilized for difficulty adjustment attacks, to do to btc what's been done to atc and others
mats: i also don't understand how volatility will go down if btc goes back to being a 21mn usd item
mats: pick a penny stock or altcoin in that neighborhood and look at the chart
asciilifeform: mats: imho you've drawn an escherian staircase. in this hypothetical, bitcoin so cheap that scarcely any energy can be mustered for honest mining; but somehow lavish budgets for adjustment attacks ?
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046785 << absolutely nuffin that's happened to date re difficulty would take more time to undo than btc has existed, elementarily. (and in practice considerably shorter.)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-19 00:55:04 mats: i still don't understand how you can think that the hash won't also follow if the price takes a 100x dive. power generation costs money. and what happens to confirmation times should hash go to 0.001 exabytes / if btcusd goes to $1 ? how many months or decades will it take for diff to ratchet down?
asciilifeform: ('decades' is nonsense no matter how you cut it.)
asciilifeform: mats: ... granted, asciilifeform's hypothetical of 'falls to $1' is similarly 'escherian', it is difficult to paint a convincing portrait of how it could happen (specifically 1$, not 0 as in 'ecdsa broken' etc)
signpost about to knock off for the night, but observes something unsaid.
asciilifeform also to bed shortly
signpost: were there a son-of-trb that wasn't made of bubblegum and duct tape, and were there a path to that from present chain, I'd use, happily.
asciilifeform: signpost: what means 'son of' here ?
asciilifeform: sumthing's either trb-compat. or it aint, neh
asciilifeform: and what'd mean 'path from present chain' , likewise ? either you're on ~the~ chain or you aint.
signpost: there's plenty of dogshit still left if "cleaner-code-but-trb-compat"
asciilifeform: cleaner -- sure
asciilifeform: but i thought signpost's hypothetical was re a 'new bitcoin', 'trbi' , etc
asciilifeform: by how was phrased
asciilifeform to this day skeptical that such a thing could ever be perceived as anything other than -- or be anything other than -- 'some fuck trying to get rich'
signpost: your view of money isn't mine.
asciilifeform not prepared to agree or disagree, does not actually know precisely signpost's view of money
mats: huh? say if 1 of 100 exahashes are left because the price craters and most no-one can mine +ev, how does that 1 find enough blocks to get to the adjustment in reasonable time? and then the next adjustment?
asciilifeform: mats: you mine -ev.
asciilifeform: like incidentally for past 11y.
asciilifeform: mining is -ev, mats.
asciilifeform: (unless w/ stolen current ~and~ asics somehow..)
signpost: eh, there's a core disagreement and this ain't it.
asciilifeform: signpost: what, in your pov, explains why not 1 shitcoin has been able to remotely approach exch rt. of btc ?
mats: a lot of power was stranded at the margin in china, bitcoin mining was +ev
signpost: asciilifeform: that line of questioning wont arrive at my destination either.
mats: and still is afaict...
signpost: lemme attempt a start from the top.
asciilifeform: signpost: not pressing matter, don't let me keep you past bedtime
mats: yeah, pick this up tomorrow, hands are bothering
asciilifeform: signpost: you did pique my curiosity tho
signpost: asciilifeform appears to not give a shit about the economic phenomenon bitcoin, and cares only that a particular protocol is operating among peers in a wot, presumably to perform w/e transactions between them
asciilifeform: signpost: i must disagree
signpost: I am unclear on how this tiny wot maintains even epsilon turkey-dollar value with which to whatever
asciilifeform: simply, i preferred bitcoin as it was in 2010-11 to the present one.
signpost: pls to explain the preference
signpost: appears "would rather burn forest to remove bugs, and let grow back"
asciilifeform: the chrematists weren't 'in' yet.
asciilifeform: they ruin errything they touch, and the only defense against'em is to be small.
asciilifeform: like e.g. irc was in 1989. linux in 1995. etc
signpost: yep, so I understand you then.
asciilifeform: if someone invents another defense -- i'ma be 1st to take an interest.
asciilifeform: to date, sadly, only 1 known.
signpost: those items were sustained by the excess of an economic (sham) machine that is apparently dying.
asciilifeform: indeed so
signpost doesn't know whether that's ragnarok or bottleneck, but it is the problem with which he's preoccupied.
signpost: if both Bitcoin and the sham empire die together, so do we all, I imagine.
asciilifeform: signpost: virtually 100% of asciilifeform's pov on the subj, to this very day is represented by his orig. piece. bitcoinism went 'wrong' when switched from being an experiment in decentralization, with eye to actual progress in that direction, to 'how to milk the morons' and inspiration for 9000+ intelligence-insulting pyramids
signpost considers this something to fight.
signpost: yep, perhaps so.
signpost: but I consider us to be talking about the same thing now, so I'll wish y'all a good night.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform likes 'fight' as much as anyone, but exhorts folx to think 'in what direction to fight'
asciilifeform: (this is lulzy ru meme, 'you're warring in the wrong direction!')
asciilifeform must to bed.
asciilifeform: goodnight signpost , mats , et al
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-19 00:59:17 mats: and, the hash that gets turned off doesn't necessarily mean equipment is destroyed, it may be utilized for difficulty adjustment attacks, to do to btc what's been done to atc and others
punkman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046807 << if miners still want to mine but stuck in difficulty-trap, I think only solution is difficulty-change-by-fiat
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-19 01:21:36 mats: huh? say if 1 of 100 exahashes are left because the price craters and most no-one can mine +ev, how does that 1 find enough blocks to get to the adjustment in reasonable time? and then the next adjustment?
punkman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046837 << why is milking the morons such a bad thing
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-19 01:29:34 asciilifeform: signpost: virtually 100% of asciilifeform's pov on the subj, to this very day is represented by his orig. piece. bitcoinism went 'wrong' when switched from being an experiment in decentralization, with eye to actual progress in that direction, to 'how to milk the morons' and inspiration for 9000+ intelligence-insulting pyramids
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-19 01:27:00 asciilifeform: like e.g. irc was in 1989. linux in 1995. etc
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-07-26 phf: relatedly to the other conversation, though i grew up on the same yarns as asciilifeform, i start to think that usenet was the original reddit, just the guys were smarter, perhaps even grownups. i posted on reddit at some point, and i want to believe that my comments were carefully constructed and detailed, but there were many reasons that we
punkman: was on greek IRC in 1998, dunno how similar to US IRC in 1989, but there was nothing there, absolutely a reddit.
punkman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046730 << didn't the japs kill plenty of chinks with plague? sure JP lost the war, so 731 didn't get to drop the plague on US. Is it that doing a bio-911 won't change the world, or that bio-911 can't happen?
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 20:44:20 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046512 << the 'bang' of bioweapons is greatly exaggerated historically. 'unit 731' has ~0 impact on the war. worth to read about why.
punkman: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6fSzXvXIAAOlmz?format=jpg&name=large << apparently yarchive.net is moldbug's brother's thing. and once upon a time was caught with pipe bomb. fun.
gregory4: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046732 << once this is done, I will try to be the first to implement it.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 20:45:31 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046518 << asciilifeform has been grinding out a spec for third wk nao. maybe 1/2 done at this pt. (had to, several times, throw away large chunks of algo, when chalkboard demonstrated that it was dud)
punkman: https://bitriver.farm/en/why << kinda cool russian mining dc "we have gone a step farther by having an in-house repair center"
gregory4: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6fSzXvXIAAOlmz?format=jpg&name=large << the police-sergeant mentioned, Paul Vance, was the spokesperson in the aftermath of Sandy Hook.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046850 << I understand asciilifeform to consider the volatility a barrier to legitimate business growing within BTC.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-19 05:54:08 punkman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046837 << why is milking the morons such a bad thing
signpost: the question then would be whether the milking generates the volatility.
signpost: certainly the use of extreme leverage on fiat-tronic exchanges contributes.
signpost: there is also the plain fact that a limited and dwindling amount of BTC is created per 10min. if this is all bought up, exchange rates are going to spike wildly.
signpost: if no one is buying, exchange rates are going to crash as miners dump to pay for electricity.
signpost: the cycle of difficulty adjustments and block "drought" during these to consider.
signpost: so it appears to me that while the gambling has some effect, satoshi also made choices that will contribute volatility while block rewards still outweigh fees https://coin.dance/blocks/feerewardratio
signpost: one might see this as the cost of bootstrapping a coin; one doesn't run the engine with the starter engaged forever, etc
signpost: also, obviously I ignored buying and selling among existing holders above. that must also be considered, but was pointing out that there's a fundamental choke point where new BTC enters, and a fundamental selling pressure generated by mining.
signpost still considers that were mining eradicated (somehow!), that system would be far superior.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046740 << the enemy doesn't fuck up the world with spare cycles after clocking out, with no disrespect to asciilifeform's works
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 20:48:51 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046547 << outta curiosity, for what need money to fight ? depending on what means 'to fight', some of these things e.g. asciilifeform did and does just find w/out money
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 21:03:08 asciilifeform: will summarize re thread : worth to recall (was mpism?) 'bitcoin can be useful without being useful ~to you~', can be usable-without-being-usable-by-you, etc. and will continue to work as originally designed even if with 5 people.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046734 << imho bitcoin cannot be this by itself; cypherpunkia is missing other fundamental structures
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 20:46:19 punkman: I like the "bitcoin is cybercountry" view
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 17:06:32 signpost: wants the decentralized wot, decentralized comms network, cryptographic control of what information leaks from my relationships
PeterL: signpost: RE the decentralized WOT, with asciilifeform's idea of each person running an irc node and hooking a bot to it, how much work would it take to have multiple deedbot's talking to each other to update a wot database?
punkman: if I had a personal wot/deed-bot, I'd like: 1. Store list of public keys I'm interested in. 2. Have it watch/crawl various locations with various filtering rules for signed (or possibly unsigned) messages (ratings, deeds, other). 3. Present feed with new items and compile local database of ratings/deeds.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046848 << the trouble with 'change by fiat' is that it creates a shitcoin.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-19 05:50:09 punkman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046807 << if miners still want to mine but stuck in difficulty-trap, I think only solution is difficulty-change-by-fiat
punkman: what if the 5 people using it don't care about this "shitcoinness"
asciilifeform: punkman: can do this even now, then!
asciilifeform: that's the beauty, folx can do more or less whatever they like
asciilifeform: asciilifeform for instance wouldn't mind if tx took 7d (1000x of current interval) instead of 10min, for whatever spell of time
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046850 << imho cumulative history of bitcoinism is an excellent illustration of the 'why'. ~100% of the technical acumen has gone into finding ever new ways to defraud people, rather than solving the problems which factually exist from pov of honest user
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-19 05:54:08 punkman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046837 << why is milking the morons such a bad thing
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-12-28 13:08:51 asciilifeform: and in general all 'oddball algo by anon' are guilty until proven innocent of being elaborate smoke&mirror schemes for inflatola, premine, or even straight magic-key theft
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046855 << i'ma have to take punkman's word for this. but i suspect, punkman , that by 'reddit' you meant 'pit of inconsequential idlers', rather than the much darker actual meaning, 'centrally-herded idlers' of actual reddit -- this item was not perfected until 2000s
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-19 06:01:41 punkman: was on greek IRC in 1998, dunno how similar to US IRC in 1989, but there was nothing there, absolutely a reddit.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046856 << very interesting subj (possibly more interesting to asciilifeform that other folx, because for a time worked in usg's 'peacewashed' hidden-in-plain-sight 'defensive' bugspray-for-humans program)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-19 06:11:15 punkman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046730 << didn't the japs kill plenty of chinks with plague? sure JP lost the war, so 731 didn't get to drop the plague on US. Is it that doing a bio-911 won't change the world, or that bio-911 can't happen?
asciilifeform: punkman: there are several tricky bits in bioweapon . microbes/virii expensive to culture, to evaluate, to package in deployable format. and once 'fired', rapidly loses virulence (via neg. selection pressure; and, if you had made artificial changes to the organism, via other, less-understood mechanisms, these end up unraveling).
asciilifeform: punkman: the other tricky bit is that the attractive, if you will , feature -- the contagion -- only worx when target is already concentrated and living in poor sanitation. against these, ordinary carpet bombing worx just the same, at a fraction of the cost and at ~0 danger to the wielder's own army.
asciilifeform: punkman: afaik the 1 'promising' development at 731 (per ru sources, which had more or less whole docs somehow) was the trick of coating shrapnel balls in a microbial soup to guarantee septic wounds. but even this turned out not to be worth the cost. much cheaper to simply produce moar shells of the ordinary kind.
asciilifeform: biowar is 1 of those 'sexy' ideas that is as old as plagues. will prolly keep coming back 4evah. but from a roi pov -- doesn't win.
punkman: roi as in maximum bodies?
punkman: but the win is in maximum terror
asciilifeform: ( not to be confused with 'theatrical' biowar , as e.g. the 1 happening now, which -- for certain people, for certain values of 'win' -- does win )
PeterL: roi = bodies per dollar spent
asciilifeform: punkman: turns out , can make the terror w/out the expensive microbes and potential own goals
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046858 << aha, it was. btw prolly half the male population of usa could be connected with similar 'gunpowder plot' if 'needed' -- 'police searched, they found gunpowder somewhere and a pipe somewhere'
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-19 06:19:08 punkman: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6fSzXvXIAAOlmz?format=jpg&name=large << apparently yarchive.net is moldbug's brother's thing. and once upon a time was caught with pipe bomb. fun.
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-05-10 asciilifeform: remember, this was the country where a man got 20 yrs for being found with a shoelace and a semiauto
asciilifeform: punkman: in usg.jurisprudence, concept goes by name 'constructive possession'.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-19 07:54:10 gregory4: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046732 << once this is done, I will try to be the first to implement it.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046863 << pretty interesting; iirc not widely publicized at the time
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046867 << it is asciilifeform's hypothesis that auto-liquidatable positions account for virtually all of it
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-19 09:16:43 signpost: certainly the use of extreme leverage on fiat-tronic exchanges contributes.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046871 << the interesting bit re: these (and similar) charts of 'physical' network parameters, is that they do not afaik appear to have any correlation w/ price (at least such that could be visible to naked eye)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-19 09:22:15 signpost: so it appears to me that while the gambling has some effect, satoshi also made choices that will contribute volatility while block rewards still outweigh fees https://coin.dance/blocks/feerewardratio
asciilifeform: i recall 'things will change! and maybe disastrously!' threads around at least the most recent 2 'reward halvings'
asciilifeform: result : ~0 (far as asciilifeform could tell)
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046871 << not to let shitoshi off the hook, but afaik the volatility happens ~entirely where most trading happens -- in the world of paper coins. which exist more or less wholly separately from the actual net.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-19 09:22:15 signpost: so it appears to me that while the gambling has some effect, satoshi also made choices that will contribute volatility while block rewards still outweigh fees https://coin.dance/blocks/feerewardratio
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046873 << continuing above, it aint clear to asciilifeform that the supply of actual-coin has all that much to do with it, given the 'fractional reserve' nature of the extant goxes (and all the more so where 'leveraged')
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-19 09:25:17 signpost: also, obviously I ignored buying and selling among existing holders above. that must also be considered, but was pointing out that there's a fundamental choke point where new BTC enters, and a fundamental selling pressure generated by mining.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046874 << while we're at it, who wouldn't also like an antigrav knapsack instead of the clatter, din, and flammable fuels of the airplane. only problem is, no one has yet discovered antigrav...
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-19 09:26:16 signpost: still considers that were mining eradicated (somehow!), that system would be far superior.
whaack: asciilifeform: just because the fiat exchange rate doesn't change day of the havenings doesn't mean those havenings are not dreaded events by the enemy
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046875 << actually this'd be the '1 saving grace' -- the enemy consists of 'jobsworths' sluggishly doing their 9-5 thing. often enuff 1e7 times less efficient than even 1 'from interest'.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-19 09:34:31 signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046740 << the enemy doesn't fuck up the world with spare cycles after clocking out, with no disrespect to asciilifeform's works
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-02-18 asciilifeform: (iirc we had a thread where i described how corporate ameritards, if given a problem like phuctor, would happily soak up a few $mil and megawatt of iron)
punkman: morons exist, thus they must be milked. "but we could be solving factual problems of honest user" is not blocked by the morons or the milking. why do you think all that "technical acumen" would be working on the "factual" problems if there were less morons or less milking
asciilifeform: whaack: it could be that i'm thick, but so far i have not witnessed afaik anything i'd consider to be convincing evidence for a macroscopic effect from a 'halving'
whaack: asciilifeform: i dont think there's an easy way to prove it has an effect other than speculating
whaack: i imagine that the USG has a pool of coins available to dump on the market and they restock that pool partly via mining
asciilifeform: punkman: in 60s-80s ru -- space walks, venus probes, 'blue sky' researches that the 'civilized world' is ~still to this day~ parasitizing off. in '90s ru -- no moar of this. instead : 'MMM'. and yes it is my belief that they are mutually exclusive.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-05-21 20:27:36 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: e.g.
whaack: asciilifeform: yes i was thinking of your infograph when i typed the above
whaack: so not hard to imagine that the mining input to that pool
whaack: ...being cut in half could have a delayed effect
asciilifeform: whaack: the lulzy bit is that it doesn't require in-house mining -- there are much cheaper ways of getting hold of the coins to be dumped
asciilifeform: ( mining is the singularly most expensive method for getting hold of coin )
whaack: right, it's just one of the various ways
punkman: asciilifeform: could also say current ru elite (honest users?) are doing just fine and what do they care about MMM
asciilifeform: the cheapest method, and one that doesn't even require shooting anyone, is to persuade 'weak hands' to do the dumping for you
asciilifeform: punkman: empires with degenerate elites -- eventually conquered (and even prior to this, undergo complexity collapse.) in fact this very thing already happened in ru, the folx currently presiding over it are lizard viceroys
asciilifeform: punkman: but sure, from an 'apres moi le deluge' pov , almost anywhere is 'doing fine' for ~someone~, lol
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046877 << i'ma have to disagree, given that imho it is exactly ~opposite~ of solipsism, to recognize that even when for you 'game over', for others -- carries on
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-19 09:36:22 signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046765 << this approaches solipsism.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046879 << easier to enumerate the precious little there is, than all that's missing..
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-19 09:38:29 signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046734 << imho bitcoin cannot be this by itself; cypherpunkia is missing other fundamental structures
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046882 << imho this is a catstrophically misconceived framing. for one thing, irc protocol aint terraformable. for another, why wouldja need 'multiple deedbots' or even one, when you have pubkeys and signatures ? all you need is reliable message propagation.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-19 10:34:49 PeterL: signpost: RE the decentralized WOT, with asciilifeform's idea of each person running an irc node and hooking a bot to it, how much work would it take to have multiple deedbot's talking to each other to update a wot database?
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-10 17:48:28 asciilifeform: ( likbez re subj. but factually is the algo behind the irc headache -- 'no, you may not have peerings a<->b + a<->c + b<->c ! one of these is redundant! fuck you')
punkman: all empires "eventually conquered". you can find MMMs in all times and places, I don't think they are mutually exclusive with anything
asciilifeform: punkman: it's a form of civilizational sepsis.
asciilifeform: on the scale of mmm, can only happen in 'immunocompromised' population.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046883 << why wouldja 'pull' in this application? it's more or less the clearest possible case for 'push'.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-19 11:07:56 punkman: if I had a personal wot/deed-bot, I'd like: 1. Store list of public keys I'm interested in. 2. Have it watch/crawl various locations with various filtering rules for signed (or possibly unsigned) messages (ratings, deeds, other). 3. Present feed with new items and compile local database of ratings/deeds.
asciilifeform eaten log; find interesting that folx so much more easily get excited about hypothetical problems than actual ones
asciilifeform: incl. asciilifeform , not a 'saint' in this respect at all
punkman: is it push or pull if it sits in alf-p2p channel and eats messages?
asciilifeform: ah hm punkman so you're simply speaking of traditional deedbot ?
asciilifeform: the kind that lives in irc chan
whaack: asciilifeform: is idjits putting their coins in anyonecanspend addresses hypothetical problems?
punkman: could eat from alf-p2p, irc, web, mailbox, according to your needs
punkman: and no need to publish anything for anyone else
whaack: and ftr i'm writing a proof of concept of "the bomb," will eventually publish the tool so anyone can use it
whaack: it's easier than i originally anticipated, since apparently many segwit coins are not even hidden behind a p2sh
whaack: original thought was that you had to have a process observing the mempool, waiting for a segwit user to spend the coin, so you knew the solution for x in h(x) = y, and then you could quickly try to double spend the txn with a higher fee or something
whaack: (this is still true for many segwit addresses)
asciilifeform: whaack: neato, will read
asciilifeform sat down to do this at least 5 times to date, but always ended up interrupted, never got remotely close to finish line, lol
PeterL: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046951 << we have deedbot to display the wot, that's a single point of failure, wouldn't it be better to at least have it duplicated?
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-19 12:04:31 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046882 << imho this is a catstrophically misconceived framing. for one thing, irc protocol aint terraformable. for another, why wouldja need 'multiple deedbots' or even one, when you have pubkeys and signatures ? all you need is reliable message propagation.
asciilifeform: PeterL: my argument is that there oughta be exactly as many 'deedbots' are there are users.
PeterL: so that is my question, how amenable is the current deebot to becoming a one-per-user thing, and would there be an easy way for them to broadcast ratings?
asciilifeform: PeterL: currently asciilifeform working on the broadcast part of this.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-18 20:45:31 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-18#1046518 << asciilifeform has been grinding out a spec for third wk nao. maybe 1/2 done at this pt. (had to, several times, throw away large chunks of algo, when chalkboard demonstrated that it was dud)
thimbronion: asciilifeform: share a draft?
asciilifeform: thimbronion: likely this wk
thimbronion will read, ask a bunch of dumb q's, etc.
punkman: in other milkings: https://www.virtualdiningconcepts.com/about/ "concepts including MrBreast Burger, Mariah’s Cookies, Tyga Bites, Pauly D’s Subs"
punkman: mariah's cookies!
asciilifeform: punkman: lolwat, 'virtual food' ?
asciilifeform recalls the tale of hajja nasreddin with the 'pay for food smell!' 'sure, will pay with sound of coins ringing'
whaack: !e help
trbexplorer: whaack: my valid commands are: src, uptime, version, help, view-address, view-merkle-root, view-block, verify-all, view-txn, height, push, view-raw-txn, verify-block, view-raw-block, utxos, balance
trbexplorer: code: -25, message: tx rejected, see log for details
asciilifeform: whaack: what does 'verify-all' do ?
whaack: asciilifeform: argh that shouldnt actually be exposed to this api, it verifies that all the data in the b
whaack: ...the blocks hash to their expected values
whaack is using a new ergo keyboard, please excuse extra typos and accidental enter clicks
asciilifeform: whaack: right, was thinking it wasn't meant for irc commandline
whaack: asciilifeform: tyvm, i have a dumb design where i b
whaack: ..blacklist commands instead of whitelisting them
asciilifeform: whaack: chording kbd like verisimilitude's ?
whaack: asciilifeform: nope, xbows keyboard https://x-bows.com/
whaack: i forget which switches i got, but they feel fantastic
billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046984 << i believe they're called "cloud kitchens" and they've been the hot new startupism trend for the past few years with the rise of delivery apps
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-19 13:43:37 asciilifeform: punkman: lolwat, 'virtual food' ?
asciilifeform: whaack: interesting-looking , at the very least, item
asciilifeform not historically fond of 'bent' kbds, but some folx very much luvv'em
whaack: having shift and ctrl as thumb keys is a+++
asciilifeform: billymg: a, so actual food? for a sec was thinking it was similar to the 'artwork shitcoin' thing
billymg: essentially rent time/space in commercial kitchen, put logo on an uber eats listing, now you're a restaurant
whaack: !e help
trbexplorer: whaack: my valid commands are: src, uptime, version, help, view-address, view-block, view-merkle-root, view-txn, height, push, view-raw-txn, verify-block, view-raw-block, utxos, balance
billymg: this one might be a tweak on that idea, where existing established restaurants can launch "logo restaurants" on uber eats using their own kitchen
whaack: !e verify-block 1337
trbexplorer: transactions hash to merkle and block header hashes to block hash for block 1337
asciilifeform: billymg: 'air merchants' never sleep, lol
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-19 11:25:49 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046850 << imho cumulative history of bitcoinism is an excellent illustration of the 'why'. ~100% of the technical acumen has gone into finding ever new ways to defraud people, rather than solving the problems which factually exist from pov of honest user
trbexplorer: code: -25, message: tx rejected, see log for details
billymg: asciilifeform: every zoomer now doing "drop ship" business too. where buy plastic gadget from alibaba, then markup 20x and sell on instagram under trendy label
whaack: billymg: nono they don't even risk the investment of buying the gadget
billymg: exactly like shitcoins, all about creating a meme brand (wither food, gadget, or lotto ticket coin)
whaack: they wait until they've
billymg: whaack: exactly, they don't hold inventory
mats: roi imo shouldnt be calculated in body count per dollar, but a more mercurial measure of will-to-fight stolen per dollar
whaack: ^ exactly
asciilifeform: mats: would need a direct line to god of war to measure, i suspect.
asciilifeform: (consider vietnam)
mats: remember the conversations about snipers / ieds goal to maim than kill
mats: armies of invalids will still be sapping usg budget long after withdrawal
asciilifeform: mats: worx esp. well against the overcivilized (who won't simply finish off own wounded)
whaack: !e view-txn b9c2374e8b3ee55b770689a729a54336d77f766848cb46ea71e8a053e3196983
trbexplorer: TXN OVERVIEW
trbexplorer: txn_hash: b9c2374e8b3ee55b770689a729a54336d77f766848cb46ea71e8a053e3196983
trbexplorer: block_height: 690611
trbexplorer: txn_index: 1
trbexplorer: size: 114
trbexplorer: INPUTS
trbexplorer: txn_hash: fafc912fd71accec857f7e365e1737c38957e1a41bb3e7c3a98fec832ec65ca8
trbexplorer: out_index: 1
trbexplorer: value_sats: 15128979
trbexplorer: scriptsig:
trbexplorer: OUTPUTS
trbexplorer: address: 87cbd83d1431730d628a1b25577faf8e1ea33f900114a9
trbexplorer: value_sats: 2943880
trbexplorer: address: 7106379bb6c60edd732e2b2618f58a85152646831400
trbexplorer: value_sats: 12155417
whaack: !e push 0100000001836919e353a0e871ea46cb4868767fd73643a529a78906775be53e8b4e37c2b90100000000ffffffff01f92bb900000000001976a9146c560e9d65f3daf56e44d7c4c6b6bb39c4c120b188ac00000000
trbexplorer: code: -25, message: tx rejected, see log for details
asciilifeform: oh hm, interesting
asciilifeform: whaack: is this a 'the bomb' demo ?
whaack: possibly i have misconstructed the 'bomb' but atm trb seems to reject it
whaack: first rejection was because the txn i was trying to snag was spent in the meantime
whaack: asciilifeform: yes
asciilifeform: i'd expect these gotta be fired automatically tho, to work in time
asciilifeform: (supposing there were a miner who's willing to eat)
whaack: asciilifeform: it appears that is not the case http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1046968
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-19 12:15:48 whaack: it's easier than i originally anticipated, since apparently many segwit coins are not even hidden behind a p2sh
whaack: the automatic ones are on the todo list still
asciilifeform: if hash were rentable 'by the pound', would be quite straightforward to pull this off
asciilifeform would pitch in to fund
whaack: so you pay a couple million to mine a block that snags 100k segwit coins?
whaack: or something like that?
asciilifeform: whaack: i'd expect 1 block would not suffice
asciilifeform: gotta have, say, 100
asciilifeform: so that impractical to unroll.
asciilifeform: whaack: the second shot of this hypothetical 'double tap' would be to, in the event of an ethertard 'we get it back! because reasons!' idjitfork, to market dump the whole yield on the enemy's prong of the fork. but perhaps this is obv.
asciilifeform: *ethertard-style
asciilifeform: ^ how to do this -- 'exercise for the reader'
asciilifeform realizes that ^ as-stated is impossible, lol
dulapbot: (trilema) 2014-04-23 asciilifeform: i was once taught 'gypsy recipe for chicken' - '1) first, find a chicken'
whaack: asciilifeform: the idea is to dump bitcoin holdings on the segwit 'thats not faiiiiir' fork while keeping actual bitcoin safe
asciilifeform: whaack: i admit , wonder whether you could induce 'the bomb' to be mined by including a heroic tx fee (e.g. 100% !) in one
asciilifeform: whaack: right, but it'll only work with pre-fork holdings.
whaack: first step is to get trb to actually accept this transaction
whaack: it could be a situation where trb is willing to validate this transaction but not willing to broadcast it
asciilifeform: tho not essential, only need miner to accept. how to get it there -- brute force suffices, transmit to erry node from billymg's scan until..
asciilifeform: (supposing can be made edible by anyffin at all)
whaack: heathen block explorers are rejecting this transaction with 'no witness data' error or some such
asciilifeform: i'd expect.
whaack: as i expected them to
whaack: !e view-raw-txn 249000 1
trbexplorer: 010000000126ab486178d477625f8db451993d4b86a27169c4cf3953c269a668ceb6ea57a6010000008a4730440220339a4272813da58b3c7f59b610e6a72ed9806a970c9cb727ea9374c6f6d2a39e022050616548e49133d2c8cf90194a955160bbb390e7ce43a97ee17221a60f352a3e014104bfe077fe02078cd29681bb6a48fb395305f7412b4571bb0ae9429a0cd3a18d6a4f8654d6b22b3940cdef15ab5fa61cf43a1903d3ee82223de84558ca88c73756ffffffff0251d24a26130000001976a914d6c0d248859a2e3c6c94c434f10f40165e23ca
trbexplorer: code: -25, message: tx rejected, see log for details
whaack: !e height
trbexplorer: 690611
whaack: !w probe 205.134.172.28
watchglass: 205.134.172.28:8333 : Alive: (0.083s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=691763
whaack: !e height
trbexplorer: 690640
whaack: !e height
trbexplorer: 690681
whaack: this is just anecdotal data, bclicking through heathen blockexplorers, i notice that the "spent" link is active way more often when its next to a segwit address
whaack: but clicking*
whaack: !e height
trbexplorer: 690703
whaack: !e view-txn 41bbeb0ba4378cef4043f0a411861ef2fca947ba0420bf42a7c3b03de0af1f73
trbexplorer: Transaction not found.
whaack: !e view-txn a2e7124c3041578530e37388e8e358579722dcd6c387c5eefda1133c4fd4614a
whaack: !e push 01000000014a61d44f3c13a1fdeec587c3d6dc22975758e3e88873e330855741304c12e7a20000000000ffffffff0270281200000000001976a9146c560e9d65f3daf56e44d7c4c6b6bb39c4c120b188ac70281200000000001976a9146c560e9d65f3daf56e44d7c4c6b6bb39c4c120b188ac00000000
trbexplorer: txid 8a5385db0d79f61964047eb73801fb5d052f2dda6da4213120982c59434080d4
whaack: alright, bomb planted
thimbronion: whaack: terrorist!
whaack: looks like it's going to sit dormant
asciilifeform: whaack: what was the reason trb wouldn't eat ? ( and what's in this nuke, exactly ? )
whaack: asciilifeform: trb wouldn't eat the txn because there's actually a minimum transaction length that was not met because i didnt supply any data for the signature
asciilifeform: ah hm so needed nop padding ?
asciilifeform vaguely recalls this from the 'sha puzzle tx' incident
whaack: asciilifeform: http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.cpp?v=makefiles#0315 is the offending line. I just added another output to solve the problem
whaack: brb 20 mins, food
asciilifeform: a, neato
asciilifeform updated logger to colour trbexplorer correctly.
asciilifeform: !w poll
watchglass: Polling 17 nodes...
watchglass: 185.85.38.54:8333 : Could not connect!
watchglass: 205.134.172.6:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.021s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=691772
watchglass: 84.16.46.130:8333 : Could not connect!
watchglass: 185.163.46.29:8333 : Could not connect!
watchglass: 205.134.172.26:8333 : Alive: (0.081s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=691772
watchglass: 205.134.172.4:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.083s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=691772
watchglass: 54.39.156.171:8333 : (ns562940.ip-54-39-156.net) Alive: (0.137s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=691754
watchglass: 205.134.172.27:8333 : Alive: (0.078s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=691772 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 205.134.172.28:8333 : Alive: (0.088s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=691772 (Operator: whaack)
watchglass: 208.94.240.42:8333 : Alive: (0.160s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=691772
watchglass: 54.38.94.63:8333 : (ns3140226.ip-54-38-94.eu) Alive: (0.256s) V=88888 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.8.88.88/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=691772
watchglass: 143.202.160.10:8333 : Alive: (0.294s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=691772
watchglass: 176.9.59.199:8333 : (static.199.59.9.176.clients.your-server.de) Alive: (0.333s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=412062 (Operator: jurov)
watchglass: 213.109.238.156:8333 : Alive: (0.334s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=691772
watchglass: 103.36.92.112:8333 : (terebe.ns01.net) Alive: (0.585s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=691770
watchglass: 192.151.158.26:8333 : Alive: (0.855s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=691772
watchglass: 71.191.220.241:8333 : (pool-71-191-220-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.471s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=691772 (Operator: asciilifeform)
billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-19#1047118 << in working on mine at one point went through historical logs and made fairly comprehensive list of bots: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=0zgO
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-19 16:33:54 asciilifeform: updated logger to colour trbexplorer correctly.
billymg: no guarantees that they're all there though
asciilifeform: billymg: oglafbot wasn't a bot, lol
billymg: lol
billymg: it looked like a bot
asciilifeform: billymg: was BB putting on bot mask for certain occasions iirc
asciilifeform: !q seen-anywhere oglafbot
dulapbot: oglafbot last seen in #trilema on 2019-05-24 08:33:47: https://www.oglaf.com/glindr/
asciilifeform: !q seen-anywhere pokarBot
dulapbot: pokarBot last seen in #trilema on 2018-03-10 16:02:03: *shinohai Dealt! shinohai #1
asciilifeform: ^ was missing from asciilifeform's config
asciilifeform: possibly others also, will look later
billymg: but i guess there are a few messages that would indicate human
asciilifeform: !q seen-anywhere feedbot
dulapbot: feedbot last seen in #asciilifeform on 2021-06-13 15:29:01: http://thetarpit.org/2021/summer-in-the-postmodern-soviets << The Tar Pit -- Summer in the postmodern Soviets
asciilifeform: ^ RIP ?
asciilifeform: possibly perished in the fleanode meltdown
asciilifeform: or author simply went.
asciilifeform: !q seen-anywhere spyked
dulapbot: spyked last seen in #asciilifeform on 2020-06-18 10:08:47: asciilifeform, danke. fixed and answered: http://thetarpit.org/2020/a-cursory-look-at-the-infamous-trb-wedge-bug#comment-353
asciilifeform: !q uptime
dulapbot: asciilifeform: time since my last reconnect : 33d 17h 52m
whaack: when I run getmemorypool on my bitcoind my bomb is no where to be found
whaack: sciilieform: any clue why this may be? or anyone else know how trb
whaack: ...trb's memory pool works?
thestringpuller: signpost: been reading about chainlink and oracle reputation - still trying to grok methodology of "verifying facts" when oracles publish external as part of service agreement. still probably need to read teh whitepaper more thoroughly, but the 100 pages or so isn't what I would call "light reading"
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-07 15:52:11 signpost: thestringpuller: see e.g. "chainlink" for other gropes at the problem, how to connect on-chain smart contracts with real world events
vex: whaack, why not test on local fork? mine yourself
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