spyked: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-29#1931973 <-- most likely same level. ftr, I'ma attempt to apply mircea_popescu's pill of stealing everything related, up to and including sbcl, which hopefully should make it easier to reproduce items written on top of it.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-29 18:34:40 asciilifeform: saddest thing is, i'm not even certain it's more retarded than e.g. hunchentoot
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-23 05:47:14 mircea_popescu: this understanding is current as of cca 2016. meanwhile we agreed that because a) it is preferrable to work with republican rather than imperial items and to prevent more imperial seepage than needed ; and because b) there's no limit to signature count as per long standing observations and discussions (with a very early asciilifeform cca 2013 maybe) then therefore the correct approach is to sign things early, to get them i
spyked: problem remains one of bootstrapping: iirc sbcl requires a working lisp in order to be built.
spyked: and the only *quick* solution that I can think of here is signing the binturd that I've been using for the last few years; if anyone has a better idea, pl0x to chime in
spyked: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-29#1931955 <-- recall, /me already wrote a toy prototype as his introduction to ada. other than the fact that it looks noobish and requires work to integrate with the c-isms, writing logger on top of it would also require something along the lines of a. mod_adalisp and b. handling other wwwistic s
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-29 18:21:10 asciilifeform: diana_coman: rly it oughta be in tmsr-adalisp (tm)(r) but this apparently dun exist yet.
spyked: tuff, which I suspect would make the result no different than either flask or hunchentoot
spyked: re. http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-25#1931011 <-- /me has been thinking a bit about this after reading the discussion, and it occurs to me that one of the reasons that might keep people from signing items is that there's no way to "unsign" them. nor that is desirable imho, but "what if" some sign piece of coad turns out to burn your house to the ground. in any case, this reveals to me the (
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-25 13:25:11 diana_coman: but it's a more difficult thing to catch as it were: as above, it's unclear if "no signature" is a sign of "seeking to hide imperfection" or of "no read" or wtf already
spyked: perhaps obvious) fact that the signature says something about the signatory *at the time* when he/she has signed, not necessarily at the time that I'm using the object in question.
spyked: grrr... *is that, *some signed piece
spyked needs to wake up; bbl, tea
diana_coman: spyked: there's no way to undo what one did, yes; make amends maybe, undo no.
diana_coman: re logger atm I am undecided as my options so far seem to be: 1. do another round of madness with flask until it works on this old (but stable at least) centos 2. replicate environment aka burn down centos and have fun installing remotely on the machine cuntoo 3. simply run irssi (as I'm otherwise running this code anyway as my client) with logging to db into an mp-wp database and be done with it (possibly each line a one comment - will end
diana_coman: ofc there's alway 4. give up on it at this time
diana_coman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-29#1932144 - do you mean cuntoo or what exactly?
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-29 22:50:59 lobbes: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-29#1932021 << indeed, testbed on trinquean cuntoo. Yeah, did not encounter same horrors (besides the need for commenting out the cache thing)
spyked: diana_coman, yeah, well I suppose that's another reason why the manifest mechanism is useful: if I signed a patch P at t1, and later I found out that it does something stupid or subtly malicious or whatever; then at t2 I can sign the "inverse" to P and give context to that signature in the manifest (whoever tries to press that has to know why particularly I made some change)
mp_en_viaje: hi all from the comfortable insides of florimund, my european mobile mping station.
mp_en_viaje: anyone wanna guess the make ?
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-29#1931877 << take it eays
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-29 13:10:29 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I'm working on organizing a break down of the situation. It's a very map-heavy exercise
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-29#1931885 << pretty cool
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-29 15:26:21 asciilifeform: will post photo 'porn' when assembled, for aficionados.
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-29#1931937 << keks. you should see the poor romanian guys of sibiu. pretense to cntrary notwithstanding, @sameplace.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-29 18:09:05 diana_coman: centos 6; because gentoo problem as you just described + the poor moldavian guys anyway pretty much @kukuruz
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-29#1931963 << pretty sure this was in the og alread, lolz. poor guy, wth is h to do. gotta use somethign
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-29 18:27:23 diana_coman: to cite from flask's description, for full allergy-triggers: A micro-framework for Python based on Werkzeug, Jinja 2 and good intentions
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-29#1931973 << well, spyked's been working on answering this q, im following along.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-29 18:34:40 asciilifeform: saddest thing is, i'm not even certain it's more retarded than e.g. hunchentoot
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-29#1931976 << precisely. part of trilema process.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-29 18:38:11 asciilifeform: ( mp is fond of old php , but it suffers from 100% of same headaches , and in fact even slower , esp. if the job is even slightly moar complicated than wp ; he arrived at it same way i did at 'flask' -- picked up decade ago and 'it worx, i'ma pour cement on this' )
mp_en_viaje: trying to maybe gwt out of it, hence the work to spec "blog" in the abstract ; but mp-wp stack works for trilema TODAY ; i ain't taking a break from publishing untul "better world". god knows the week long #trilema outage was long enough.
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-29#1931978 << pretty much thast was the idea yeah. iirc we even discussed tcl in ancient thread re this same matter
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-29 18:41:50 asciilifeform: ( would also be Right Thing for e.g. bootstrapping gnat, and related battlefield )
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-29#1932021 << she has a point i nthat "version numbers" are utterly meaningless (which is why one's 2 something, the other 0 sometiing, yet used in same pile). all that matters is vintage, like in wines, DOC for code.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-29 20:52:37 diana_coman: he's on gentoo so it should be more similar to your env/packages/versions though
mp_en_viaje: you can build ok from gentoo work if in there, but it won't work in centos world and vice0versa, "version number" irrespective.
mp_en_viaje: much like ye olde red army tanks worked if parta made by same factory not of same kind
mp_en_viaje: esltatrds managed to reimplement mirvniki farming-powered parochial worlview.
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-29#1932035 << possibly the case indeed ; but we gotta start actually documenting it with a view to ever fixing it, there's no way the fuck out alresfy.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-29 20:59:22 asciilifeform: diana_coman: i vaguely suspect that this is the thing that discouraged past folx who made loggers, from genesising. 'dafuq is the point, likely no one can even replicate this'
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-29#1932038 << not better ; just, different set of "tools". some people have preferences as to th exact manner of timewasting.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-29 21:02:32 diana_coman: asciilifeform: so then what, I'm still better off writing the bot in C or what?
mp_en_viaje: but yes, that you'll be sinking in more of your time than it's worth, you know that going in. "modern computing paradigm".
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-29#1932041 << i'm sure there's a library/tool for this/that.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-29 21:08:33 asciilifeform: well if you feel like sweating out 3 kilometres of malloc() and realloc()'s and errno()'s -- who am i to say
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-29#1932043 << as far as we know this is probably needed in the general.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-29 21:09:24 asciilifeform: diana_coman: you'd need to bake pg glue for ada, there aint any
mp_en_viaje: ftr, this is fucking beautiful, going towards balea on 7c while reading logs.
mp_en_viaje: i was here many times before (though not in the past... well, 20 or so yeaes) but i never knew this is what i wanted to make it complete!
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-29#1932053 << better than no ratcher but indeed not yet better by much
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-29 21:22:37 asciilifeform: atm i have a distinct unpleasant feeling that the ratchet presently does not ratchet very well.
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-29#1932058 << apparently nobody wants argentiens for any purpose. i can imagine why not.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-29 21:28:21 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: the chinese can show up with the slave galleons and start loadin' whenever they feel like. ( and it is a deep enigma, far above asciilifeform's paygrade, to explain wtf they're waiting for )
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-29#1932060 << certainly how the tutsi massacre thing worked irl.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-29 21:29:43 BingoBoingo: Well, probably waiting for local labor prices to drop enough to outsource the spear work to the Paraguayo immigrant population.
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-29#1932069 << but never within 10 miles or so.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-29 21:36:05 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: China doesn't even particularly like Argentina. The Argentine Navy shoots at their fishing boats.
mp_en_viaje: it's mostly argentine wank, like "messi"
mp_en_viaje: ~most commodity classes are more monetized than new cars, which is universally what the argentines do : they also make heaters that are worse heaters than scrap wire. and worse coputer cases than tree trunks and so on.
mp_en_viaje: whoopsy, lost coverage there a second crossing the transfagarasan
mp_en_viaje: anyway, point being argentine is ~equiv innocent black youth : pure entropic process, exactly like yeast fermentation. "industry" pointed misnomer for the activity.
diana_coman: apparently transfagarasan not that well covered, lol
lobbes: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-30#1932170 << I mean cuntoo exactly. testbed is the exact iron in this post
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-30 05:30:10 diana_coman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-29#1932144 - do you mean cuntoo or what exactly?
BingoBoingo: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-30#1932174 << VW type 2, recently taken out of cosmoline pit?
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-30 06:34:02 mp_en_viaje: anyone wanna guess the make ?
BingoBoingo: I'm thinking something like http://trilema.com/2016/the-tatu-party-bus-and-other-wasps/ but clean
feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/08/prorogation-queen-to-suspend-parliament-after-apparently-tiring-of-exit-free-brexit/ << Qntra -- PROROGATION: Queen To Suspend Parliament After Apparently Tiring Of Exit Free Brexit
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-30#1932158 << this is more or less what was done with orig. gnat. but eventually will have to be solved properly (i.e. 'here's an asm thing for $machine, with which in turn can build x...')
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-30 04:09:03 spyked: and the only *quick* solution that I can think of here is signing the binturd that I've been using for the last few years; if anyone has a better idea, pl0x to chime in
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-30#1932159 << mod_xyz is only really needed with ancient horrors like php, which otherwise sink 1e9 cpu cycles on revving up the interpreter with ~each~ www req. for items that serve themselves up on a port, dun need mod_xyz, can simply fwd port
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-30 04:12:47 spyked: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-29#1931955 <-- recall, /me already wrote a toy prototype as his introduction to ada. other than the fact that it looks noobish and requires work to integrate with the c-isms, writing logger on top of it would also require something along the lines of a. mod_adalisp and b. handling other wwwistic s
diana_coman: hm, in better & unexpected news, a fresh last-ditch try seems to possibly work - with precisely flask as lobbes's (http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-29#1932146)
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-29 22:51:04 lobbes: For clarity, on testbed I got the eater.py and the reader.py working fine. Was able to view loglines and search with no issue (on localhost only, didn't test port forwarding). Did *not* test the bot.py, however. For reference, my version info: Flask 0.12.2; psycopg2 2.7.4; Python 2.7.15
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-30#1932162 << there of course is no such thing as 'unsign'. next best thing is 'antipatch', i.e. where you fix the errata. and imho all signatures oughta include human-readable annotation
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-30 04:19:52 spyked: re. http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-25#1931011 <-- /me has been thinking a bit about this after reading the discussion, and it occurs to me that one of the reasons that might keep people from signing items is that there's no way to "unsign" them. nor that is desirable imho, but "what if" some sign piece of coad turns out to burn your house to the ground. in any case, this reveals to me the (
asciilifeform: oh hey diana_coman , worx ?
diana_coman: i.e. so far I could at least actually run the reader and it's waiting; ran the eater on my own ossasepia deeded logs and it ate
diana_coman: asciilifeform: what's the incantation to do with apache to check now?
diana_coman: will try! thank you asciilifeform
diana_coman: and ofc I need to see if the *bot* also works, lolz
asciilifeform: diana_coman: dun fughet to set up the config knobs (per readme)
asciilifeform: if you get something other than a working www & bot, turn on the debug knobs.
diana_coman: asciilifeform: the config knobs were set (easy part!!)
asciilifeform: if debugs are off, thing is pretty quiet in re log. (to avoid filling disk with kilometres of crapola in normal operation)
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i tested the bot by setting chan to e.g. #asciilifeform-test . can do similar, then you can use whatever unregged nick etc (dun fughet to set pw to empty then)
asciilifeform: the www reader will then also display that chan, can easily test.
asciilifeform: init the db (via the supplied script) and let reader & bot run in background . then see how behaves.
asciilifeform will eat the remaining log after tea; brb
diana_coman: ha, at least I got the bot running and joining the chan (ossasepia-test), yeee
diana_coman: it needed one more install but anyways; nao to see about apache
BingoBoingo: "Creo que va a venir el préstamo del FMI, pero estarán esperando el respaldo por parte de la oposición" << Argentard of apparent import in the Argentardocracy discussing pending, yet to be revealed currency exchange controls. Dude just assumes more dole fodder is on the way so long as Argentines all agree to the right ritual handwashing.
BingoBoingo: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-30#1932212 << No, the Argentines are dumb enough to have their navy fire upon the Chinese boats fairly routinely to the point China's papers report on it http://archive.is/WzLiZ
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-30 07:55:41 mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-29#1932069 << but never within 10 miles or so.
diana_coman: yeeeee, works and test-live at logs.ossasepia.com (184.108.40.206)
diana_coman: asciilifeform: thank you!
diana_coman: name's ossabot so can haz !o maybe?
diana_coman: asciilifeform, BingoBoingo can I get that pizarro banner to hang in there?
feedbot: http://thetarpit.org/posts/y06/09d-hunchentoot-vib.html << The Tar Pit -- Hunchentoot: requests and replies [b]
diana_coman looks at the pile of lisp books waiting on the shelf
BingoBoingo: diana_coman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/static/piz.jpg Here's one. I'll try to dig for where the rest of the mod6 banners are. Searching the #pizarro logs returned 404'd links
BingoBoingo: !Qlater tell mod6 the links to your pizarro banners appear to all be 404 on mod6.net, is there any way you could assemble all the banners together in a blog post or something?
lobbesbot: BingoBoingo: The operation succeeded.
diana_coman: BingoBoingo: thanks! got it and it's online already.
BingoBoingo: diana_coman: Thank you
asciilifeform: who wants piz banner, lift from mine
asciilifeform: it's appropriately scaled/compressed
asciilifeform: ( and if anyone want to make a moar readable one -- plz ! )
asciilifeform: the larger banner is on phuctor www
asciilifeform: ( in the form orig. sent in by mod6 iirc )
asciilifeform: diana_coman: seems to work !!
asciilifeform: re banners , i expected that folx will want to put own , rather than use mine. ( plus there's no practical way to put any such thing in a v genesis ) so i omitted'em
asciilifeform: diana_coman: re http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia-test/2019-08-30#1000017 << you'll prolly want to swap that link for wherever you keep your personal vtree
diana_coman: asciilifeform: indeed it does! and yes, I'll have to look into something for younghands probably but pizarro will stay there too
asciilifeform: why ty diana_coman .
asciilifeform: btw i have found that the banners spill the screen on some exotic browsers ( crapple's, in particular ) but did not bother yet to try and fix somehow
diana_coman: asciilifeform: re vtree I considered it but atm the source is your blog so there it is; when I get around to wrap it up I'll sign + publish etc
diana_coman: asciilifeform: can I get a raw dump of the logs to feed the bot or how best to sync?
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i'ma cycle the dumper manually . go and load the 'raw dump link' in 30s or so. (and if anyone speaks between now and when you import it, can fill the hole with the raw export knob and eater.py )
diana_coman: asciilifeform: which raw dump link? the db dump you mean?
diana_coman: aha, the db; kk
asciilifeform: ok lemme cycle it again, lol. 30s
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-29#1932106 << what, the later tell delivery ?
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-29 21:54:01 trinque: lobbesbot, maybe it could pm instead
mp_en_viaje: i honestly dun see the prioblem with in-chan delivery.
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-30#1932218 << not covered at all, actually. it
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-30 08:52:51 diana_coman: apparently transfagarasan not that well covered, lol
mp_en_viaje: it;s not "just the tunnel", bout 30-40km each way, radio dead zone.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-30 09:53:41 BingoBoingo: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-30#1932174 << VW type 2, recently taken out of cosmoline pit?
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-30#1932251 << yes ; but a) that's not chinese paper and b) i dunno what naval warfare this is from, but the "fired and nothing happened" seems to confirm my comment.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-30 12:03:30 BingoBoingo: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-30#1932212 << No, the Argentines are dumb enough to have their navy fire upon the Chinese boats fairly routinely to the point China's papers report on it http://archive.is/WzLiZ
BingoBoingo: mp_en_viaje: Well, its the Argentine Navy firing in the general direction of Chinese boats. And they did sink one Chinese boat in 2016.
mp_en_viaje: oh yeah, i recall
BingoBoingo: The Argentines also refuse to publish any charts outlining the EEZ their Navy enforces
mp_en_viaje: o hey, ated logs.
mp_en_viaje: looks like an hour or so to brasov...
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-29#1931860 << weird shit.... apparently i was looking at a stale page. sorry about that.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-29 08:58:09 trinque: various "block explorers" show that one as shipped. afaik all have.
asciilifeform: ohai mp_en_viaje
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-29#1931863 << not gonna name pre-whatever girlies. but no, doth not look like hanbot at all
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-29 09:57:25 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-29#1931848 << this character mentioned 4 or 5 times recently... but does it have a name ? ( i admit, when 1st saw picture, assumed it was a young photo-shy hanbot )
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: aa ok, wasn't hanbot. i was thinking i was merely thick.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-30#1932187 << loox, btw, that diana_coman has a working mirror ! so neveragain 'ooops no l0gz!', ha.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-30 06:59:30 mp_en_viaje: trying to maybe gwt out of it, hence the work to spec "blog" in the abstract ; but mp-wp stack works for trilema TODAY ; i ain't taking a break from publishing untul "better world". god knows the week long #trilema outage was long enough.
mp_en_viaje: no, she is.
asciilifeform: wai which is
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-30#1932193 << it's exactly like the infamous 'ppsh' submachine gun factory, where in early models parts in fact were not interchangeable, cuz pre-selected from piles to work 'in set'
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-30 07:07:00 mp_en_viaje: much like ye olde red army tanks worked if parta made by same factory not of same kind
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-30#1932202 << ada imho is uniquely unsuited to 'munge 9000 strings' type of proggy. so not sure whether would ever want pg glue in it. any attempt to use, will be tremendously ugly
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-30 07:21:35 mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-29#1932043 << as far as we know this is probably needed in the general.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-30#1932188 << my objection to e.g. tcl isn't in 'martian syntax', but that it's a titanic pile of ??? in c, exactly like python, perl, et al
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-30 07:00:57 mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-29#1931978 << pretty much thast was the idea yeah. iirc we even discussed tcl in ancient thread re this same matter
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-29 18:47:31 asciilifeform: with implementation weighing a few dozen kB.
asciilifeform distinctly recalls a thread where asciilifeform was unable to try some heathen proggy because 'the correct' tcl would not build in his gentoo. but sadly cannot find in o(1)..
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-30#1932215 << that comp case, btw, may have been an inept clone of 1 of my current ones, where ps goes in bottom and ~intake~ fan sucks cold air through filter in the bottom panel. but the orcs did not bother evidently to think about why, and... decided to put ~hot~ end there !
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-30 08:31:43 mp_en_viaje: ~most commodity classes are more monetized than new cars, which is universally what the argentines do : they also make heaters that are worse heaters than scrap wire. and worse coputer cases than tree trunks and so on.
asciilifeform: ohai ossabot !
diana_coman: !o help
diana_coman: ah, can't talk in here, good.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i think it needs a green light from mp_en_viaje
diana_coman: I'm not sure it should talk in here
diana_coman: it's meant to listen, not to talk, heh
asciilifeform: diana_coman: well why not it talk when given links to own log
asciilifeform: my bot is written such that only speaks when spoken to
diana_coman: ah, there is the log-citing, hm.
mp_en_viaje: i can voice it but when im back
asciilifeform: that way we will never be without a bot which echoes when asked
asciilifeform: ty for making mirror, diana_coman !
diana_coman: mp_en_viaje: no hurry; is !o ok to take for ossabot?
mp_en_viaje: pretty sure, yeah
asciilifeform: ~nao~ and only nao we finally have proper logging!
asciilifeform: diana_coman: observe btw that the bot config allows to put ~list~ of fleanode endpoints. so it is not necessary to use the default rotation dnsism, can in fact do like mp_en_viaje does and put list of favourites
diana_coman: I checked at http://lobbesblog.com/static/tmsr_bot_directory.html and !o didn't seem taken but it's not among the "next in line" either
asciilifeform: so thereby could actually make it so that the diff bots live at any given time on diff ones
diana_coman: not sure if there's some algo to it; my choice was so it's easy to remember/match
asciilifeform: diana_coman: how didja fill in the lines ? /raw/ and by hand ?
diana_coman: asciilifeform: the gap, yes
asciilifeform: at some pt we will have to think of a way to mechanize these.
diana_coman: for the dump I did first a sed for botname and then restore into db
diana_coman: but yes, it has to be automated
asciilifeform: diana_coman: dun fughet to put bot & reader in cron, '@reboot ...' etc
diana_coman: myeah, atm it's still in "beta" deploy, lol
asciilifeform: !q uptime
snsabot: asciilifeform: time since my last reconnect : 14d 3h 9m
asciilifeform: ^ i in fact have not had to spoon-feed mine yet. but nao there is from where ! if needs.
asciilifeform: wb girlattorney
girlattorney: hi asciilifeform
asciilifeform: girlattorney: were you able to make your trb node ?
girlattorney: almost, then left unsynced at 585k height, but still have the data.
girlattorney: I have read the log for a couple of weeks then now logged in to make other questions
asciilifeform: girlattorney: before you do, plz clarify, 'left unsynced' means it in fact sat all summer trying to sync and never did?! or switched off ?
girlattorney: switched off
asciilifeform: aa ok
girlattorney: i was trying to moving it on a better colo and left everything off for a while
asciilifeform: girlattorney: indeed these are very sensitive to quality of net pipe.
girlattorney: i also had a nice graph made with darkstat about the peers that helped most on syncing from 0
asciilifeform: girlattorney: i have 1 going on a residential pipe since '15, but it is a rather costly pipe
girlattorney: then rebooted the machine and lost the stats
asciilifeform: girlattorney: aa, so you had the 'who-gave' patch, neat. unfortunate that lost. would be very interesting to read.
girlattorney: basically most of the juice (chunks of 50-60gb) camed from your node asciilifeform and bingo boingo
asciilifeform: unsurprising, these afaik are the most reliable public nodes at this time.
girlattorney: then there is also 40 gb from a romanian IP
asciilifeform: possibly mp_en_viaje's or spyked's
girlattorney: i still have the iotop stats, and will make a post somewhere soon with them
asciilifeform: girlattorney: as you have found now to own satisfaction, w/out having to take asciilifeform's word for it -- the actual # of ~working~ (i.e. stores and serves the entire chain) public nodes on the net, is very very small.
asciilifeform: most of what sits around claiming to be btc node, is really 'pressed-sawdust' simulacra.
girlattorney: btw, after stripping out DNS on my important applications (such as TRB) my question now was about IP space assigned from IANA, could this be in the future an attack vector?
girlattorney: in particular i'm referring about BGP hijacking and the general fact that IANA is a third party of a government, that a day could decide to limit the user freedom
asciilifeform: girlattorney: observe that there is no attempt at authenticating peers in the existing trb. you could easily be connecting to washington's node when thinking yer connecting to e.g. mp_en_viaje's. at one time i published an experimental patch where can route to people you personally know via ssh pipes, but currently not in use anywhere afaik.
asciilifeform: girlattorney: bitcoin net presently ~worx simply because 'impossible to fool ~all~ of the people ~all~ of the time'(tm)(r) via ip hijinks
girlattorney: fair enough
asciilifeform: can 'fool ~some~ of the people ~some~ of the time' indeed
asciilifeform: the more properly working trb nodes there are -- the less payoff to anyone for monkeying with their connectivity. at present in fact i do not know how many there are. not erryone bothers to advertise .
asciilifeform: and if running with default config they are invisible to the heathen 'node list' www's.
girlattorney: so as long as trb doesn't care about the peers, and there isn't a single point of failure (aka DNS and root servers) we are sound, correct?
asciilifeform: girlattorney: most folks who know how to operate trb, have at least 1 public and some # of unadvertised nodes.
asciilifeform: girlattorney: the major weak point is propagation from miners, who are living in own parallel chinese universe and between whom and trb there is a thick layer of garbage.
asciilifeform: ( evidently, as you can see, not too thick to propagate blocks in something like realtime. presently. )
girlattorney: and if i have understood correctly in BGP you do advertise your own routes and eventually someone go to your home and say "you cannot advertise these routes"
girlattorney: is not like DNS where there is a precise hierarchy, correct?
asciilifeform: girlattorney: presently -- correct. washington is continuously trying to push a washingtonized pseudo-bgp 'replacement' but yet not much uptake.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-06-25 16:35:23 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: usg ministry of lulz is trying to push usgtronic 'pki' bgp. so, 1st gotta 'make weather', vandalize a bit, drum up interest.
asciilifeform: they ~would~ like to turn it into something resembling dns.
girlattorney: i'm in europe, so in my case the middleman should be ripe ncc
girlattorney: but haven't understood if ripe depends from iana
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-21 00:00:24 asciilifeform: ( often enuff there's a concealed -- if not always well-concealed -- roundtrip to london / washington, sitting in 'between austria and switzerland' etc )
BingoBoingo: girlattorney: BGP is held together by routers on the edges of individual networks holding the entire route table in memory. In part there's folks allocating IP address blocks. In the other part there's the routers accepting and/or rejecting updates to the routes they already know.
girlattorney: thanks for the insights
girlattorney: from what i've understood iana is the big boy that decided everything in the beginning, then created some other orgs to give the idea that every continent got it's own independent association
girlattorney: but in the end they are still controlling the v4 and v6 public space allocation
asciilifeform: girlattorney: the washingtonization of the net was 'soft-pedalled' so that the few actually independent kingdoms , e.g. ru, would allow their indigenous nets (e.g. 'fido') to fully decay and fall apart
asciilifeform: rather than to compete with arpa's
asciilifeform: slowly the 'soft' is going out, and instead 'hard'
BingoBoingo: Anyone else waiting for one of their nodes to eat and spread block 592450?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: mine's on 592449
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: mine as well
girlattorney: i've read that with ripe ncc you have your loa with your own ip space, if you "fucks up" 3 times announcing blocks, the peers connected to you have to disconnect
girlattorney: (ip blocks)
asciilifeform: girlattorney: usg takes the 'rats in a barrel' approach to ipv4, they hog 80+% of the ip space and wait for the remaining people to choke from crowding and eventually submit to centralized control
girlattorney: make sense
asciilifeform: girlattorney: re colo -- talk with diana_coman , who has been surveying various colos. ( piz is pretty packed in re trb, has no fewer than 3 operating nodes . and really these benefit from being dispersed geographically, rather than concentrated in 1-2 cages ! )
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-30 13:40:12 girlattorney: i was trying to moving it on a better colo and left everything off for a while
asciilifeform: girlattorney: diana_coman lives here + in her chan #ossasepia .
girlattorney: i must disclose that at the current value of BTC i'm haven't got so much to justify multiple nodes in expensive colos
girlattorney: but i'll get in touch to have an idea of prices and availability
asciilifeform: in most places, a trb-grade box leases for equiv. of maybe 100 $ (usa) .
asciilifeform: ( per mo. )
girlattorney: 100 a month is too much, im in the 20 range atm
asciilifeform: girlattorney: it is difficult to get anything for so little. in some parts of europistan, e.g. romania, residential (claimed) GB fiber goes for ~10/mo, but industrial rack slot with guaranteed mains current and bandwidth still closer, last i knew, to that 100 figure
asciilifeform: girlattorney: trying to get trb box for 20 is rather like trying to get luxury automobile for 1000
asciilifeform: net connectivity only seems cheap because residential isp 'oversell' their capacity.
asciilifeform: real pipe is quite expensive. at e.g. piz it is substantial % of the operating cost.
girlattorney: if i can ask, what is the oversell rate of a pizarro grade isp?
asciilifeform: this was actually discussed recently
asciilifeform: piz has a 200Mb pipe, and on some days it is quite crowded.
asciilifeform: currently we do not have precise measurement in realtime. but on most days i can get 100-500kB/s to my box there (from usa)
asciilifeform: but sometimes this falls to 50, or worse, when 1 or more of the piz inhabitants is at high load.
asciilifeform: girlattorney: today piz is an 'all you can eat' shop, from subscriber pov. but eventually will have to meter.
girlattorney: kB so about 1-4 mbits?
asciilifeform: girlattorney: isps in the nato reich seem 'fast' , but only for so long as the connecting peer is also in the reich. connectivity to the free world is rather more limited.
asciilifeform: the 'flat topology' of the net is largely an illusion.
girlattorney: read the bingo bongo post about cdn and local intranets with load of bandwith
girlattorney: just to feed netflixers
asciilifeform: when you get out of the reich space, it begins to very much matter where you are vis-a-vis your peer.
girlattorney: but then when you go outside, you instantly go from a 10 lanes road to a single lane road
asciilifeform: girlattorney: correct. in usa there are a great number of 'televison'-flavoured nominally ip-based services, and they mostly do not use the actual net at all, but instead connect to a cabinet in the isp's local house.
girlattorney: what is sad if that currently if you are in europe, to reach south america, you HAVE to pass through USA
girlattorney: *is that
asciilifeform: girlattorney: there's supposedly a fiber from brazil to portugal, iirc, but still owned by reich-controlled conglomerate afaik.
girlattorney: won't change much politically, but this cable has the potential to lower the overseas link prices
girlattorney: and we could get cheaper bandwith
girlattorney: that fiber that already exist from brazil to portugal is only used for telephone traffic (can't remember where i read this)
asciilifeform: this may be so . and given the delay b/w e.g. piz & europistan, i'm quite certain the packets go a few undocumented 'extra' 1000 km .
girlattorney: (atlantis 2)
asciilifeform: almost certainly to north amer.
asciilifeform: the (consistent) delays you can measure with own hands, are quite revealing of the actual physical topology.
girlattorney: the game changer should arrive with "ella link"
BingoBoingo: There's several SA to Europe pipes, Almost all of them go through Fortaleza, Brazil
asciilifeform: girlattorney: sometimes this reaches 'comedy' level, i.e. you're connecting from washington to new york and it goes -- evidently -- through london
girlattorney: in 2020
girlattorney: BingoBoingo i think you aren't aware that currently there isn't an IP route from fortaleza to eu
girlattorney: tried many times to research on this
asciilifeform: ( usg's nsa has an ancient charter, nominally still in effect, where somehow 'not spy inside usa'. but this is made into joke, instead route packet via britain, where identical branch office w/ same bugs )
girlattorney: (a direct IP route without hops on NA)
asciilifeform: girlattorney: i'm quite certain presently that you're right, and the packets from south a. go through north a. always. simply based on delay measurements to date.
girlattorney: there are two cables: one from 2000 that afaik carries only phone calls and govt activities (atlantis 2) and the 2nd that is still not operational (ella link)
asciilifeform: ( it's either that or there's a 3000km spool randomly sitting in brazil , that it goes through !! )
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Out of curiosity could you report what your node does when fed this thing purported to be block 592450 https://blockchain.info/block/000000000000000000129d844f9717256ffde5555b345f987f25339520e76734?format=hex
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: will try in 20min or so (currently hands fulla crud)
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: aite
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: what was result when you tried ?
BingoBoingo: Pretty sure my copy-paste buffer munged the hex: Block decode failed (code -22)
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: ftr i've never 1nce resorted to spoon-feeding my noad
asciilifeform: always did the 'let's give it a day or 3' thing
BingoBoingo: After a long stretch of not needing to give a day or two and seeing the whole trb-iverse visible from my chair stuck on the same block, I figure why not try to forcefeed the problem block
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: in very recent times i in fact observed prb propagating blocks that aint in fact kosher !
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-01 18:31:03 asciilifeform: at this pt, seems quite evident that someone is throwing around crafted wedge chains (i.e. mined after-the-fact , with backdated timestamp, going from older block) specifically to wedge syncing folx.
asciilifeform: i.e. that no genuine bitcoin node will eat.
asciilifeform: hrm maybe this is wrong log link.
asciilifeform: but this also observed.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-01 17:39:18 asciilifeform: dorion: '08/01/19 01:11:33 InvalidChainFound: invalid block=0000000000000000000b height=588012 work=2327381792950809691787748424' << somebody's sending invalid blox. happens erryday.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: btw for that heathen dump, the conversion is xxd -r -p liquishit.txt > liquishit.bin .
asciilifeform looks at 'zoolag' log, it quite depressing picture, 900000 'heathen command, banned' erry hr
asciilifeform: the network is in prolly saddest shape it's ever been in
mp_en_viaje: www is ~same
mp_en_viaje: anyways, i'll be off for the night. cya all laterz
asciilifeform: nighty mp_en_viaje
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: btw if you haven't noticed, that block aint edible, it's a MB and half !!
asciilifeform: apparently 'blockchain info' nao serves gavinized blox as 'bitcoin'
BingoBoingo: Or there's some segshit attached which should be shaved off
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: if you know how to shave it, plox to say.
BingoBoingo: I do not
asciilifeform: i dun deal w/ prbisms with any regularity any moar
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: and indeed no one in known trb world seems to have ...450 just yet.
BingoBoingo: Hence the poking
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: no human being seems to have *450 yet, so i can't very well try an' eat it.
asciilifeform: for all i know -- this is the long-awaited 1st shot of the great war.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: quite likely, if you were to try an' reprocess that turd into a trb-edible block, you will end with a perma-wedged node.
asciilifeform: ( if yer lucky, it'll reorg when the actual 450 shows up )
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Apparently now blocks have a size and a stripped size. Looking for a raw stripped 450 in the wild
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: last time this q was raised, asciilifeform sat and wrote in fact 80% of a 'tmsr node explorer' proggy, to try an' find 'where are the humans' instead of continuing to rely on chance. but never got chance to finish.
mod6: i've got up through 451 now.
lobbesbot: mod6: Sent 3 hours and 6 minutes ago: <BingoBoingo> the links to your pizarro banners appear to all be 404 on mod6.net, is there any way you could assemble all the banners together in a blog post or something?
asciilifeform: mod6: oh hm. can haz dumpblock of 450-451 plox ?
mod6: was stuck on 449 for a bit tho.
BingoBoingo: mod6: I suddenly hit up to 453 all within the last minute
mod6: BingoBoingo: cool
mod6: asciilifeform: lemme check
asciilifeform: or mod6 let's give it a few min
mod6: as per your comment re banners, BingoBoingo, will look.
mod6: asciilifeform: ok cool thx.
mod6: 455 nao...
asciilifeform: seems like 450 is 1 of those monsters that takes 10-20min to verify
mod6: happens sometimes, ya
asciilifeform: ( and, recall, when trb is verifying , all net processing grinds to a halt )
asciilifeform: you'll see kilometre of 'socket closed' and is all
asciilifeform: and indeed zoolag's been sitting in disk i/o wait for ~10m nao..
asciilifeform: ( samsung ssd, no less )
mod6: BingoBoingo: ok, banners should be there. want to try again? (otherwise, can move to blog post)
asciilifeform: wb mod6 btw
mod6: thanks alf
asciilifeform: mod6: how've you been
asciilifeform: ( i assume -- 9th circle of salt mine hell ? )
mod6: busy. took a vacation. needed to think about things. mainly about my tarpit problems; still a problem circa november of last year.
mod6: but yeah, 9th circle. but now, I'm committing myself to getting rid of the salt-mine, somehow. I've got to do some thinking, and talking to peoples, etc. but I want out of that life.
asciilifeform: mod6: talk with lobbes , he seems to have made progress escaping his.
mod6: cheers, yeah will do.
asciilifeform: mod6: asciilifeform presently is still in his relatively 'humane house arrest' gulag
asciilifeform: mod6: it's a 'damocle's sword' sort of existence, if/when it folds, may well end up in a conventional one again.
mod6: *nod* in the early days, pre-tmsr, I had a similar thing, was much easier to stay focused/up-to-date.
mod6: but now, need to re-invent myself a bit. need to move on from 9-5ism, and be my own man. will be a "project" for me, but working on the deets/plans atm.
asciilifeform: mod6: when you succeed in this, i'ma defo read your escape memoir.
mod6: thanks alf, will write when complete.
asciilifeform: all of asciilifeform's attempts at escape to date, only ended with deeper pit.
mod6: indeed like quicksand.
mod6: the important thing for me is that i'm resolved to not just sit around and wait for things to happen to me, re: 9-5 tarpit. im starting down a path of emacipation from that. might take some time, but not too much time.
mod6: it's already been too long.
asciilifeform: folx who sit and sit -- eventually brain evaporates
mod6: soon i'll have none left!
asciilifeform: asciilifeform was alraedy half-dead when got out from last 'conventional gulag' in '16
asciilifeform: was pretty close shave.
asciilifeform: re further trb lulz : 220.127.116.11 spams liquishit blox at ~gb/s
asciilifeform: sumbody's 'really trying'
mod6: i see him in my logz too
asciilifeform: mod6: consider standing up a log mirror, like diana_coman today. it is relatively imho 'light' exercise, oughta be good for morale of mod6 , and makes very useful result .
asciilifeform: press asciilifeform's vtree and follow the readme ( with diana_coman's nitpick from 12h ago , re the createdb step )
mod6: i saw in the logs that others were standing one up - immediately thought "ok, yup do this too." but before I embark on yet another thing, need to ensure that i have proper time. but i'll add it to list for sure.
asciilifeform: mod6: depending on whether you have a box where can run python & postgres, it is maybe 1-2hrs of sweat.
mod6: thanks for your efforts in building logtron.
mod6: i use the page daily, works well.
mod6: asciilifeform: cool, got it.
asciilifeform: mod6: it's a nearly starvation-bare logtron atm, missing all kindsa luxuries (e.g. phf's backlinks system) . but atm it's the only 100% working ~published~ one
asciilifeform: aand it's made of junkyard parts ( see diana_coman's laments ) . at some pt we will have a civilized, human replacement.
asciilifeform: perhaps before leave fleanode, perhaps after, but will.
asciilifeform: imho an orchestra of log mirrors / bot boxen is a notbad prelude to the eventual gossipdification .
asciilifeform: ( for which will need boxes just the same )
mod6: yea, exactly.
asciilifeform: in re trb -- zoolag ~still~ chewing on a block (perhaps the genuine ..450, perhaps not) even nao.
asciilifeform: enemy has had several yrs nao to work on how to 'mass produce' such blox.
asciilifeform: i expect that the o(1) tx db will become needed at some pt for realtime operation, rather than a 'wouldn't it be nice one day' item.
asciilifeform: the ominous bit is that miners themselves are apparently letting these go w/out actually verifying (or they'd sit as long as zoolag is sitting, per)
mod6: fair enough
mod6: yeah, lots to do still.
asciilifeform: aaand here we go, 592450 .
asciilifeform: aand ..451
asciilifeform: aand loox like we're cooking.
asciilifeform: see, BingoBoingo , not yet nodeocalypse hour.
mod6: im up to 490 on the foundation's node @ piz.
asciilifeform: i'ma switch off the lolazon pseudo-machine mirrors. they've lived out their purpose.
asciilifeform: apparently mine 301's in that case, let's redo:
asciilifeform: diana_coman's actually faster, from usa, than mine .
asciilifeform: re blox -- loox like ..456 is another 'heaviweight'.
asciilifeform: segshitness seems to make these easier to produce -- nonexistent sigs make room for moar past tx references.
asciilifeform: which i guess was at least part of the objective of thrusting it upon the illiterates.
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-30#1932454 lulz >>> https://www.submarinecablemap.com/#/submarine-cable/gtmo-1 .
asciilifeform: ^ i suppose streams live vids from torture chamber to centralcommittee.
asciilifeform: 35m , supposedly, cost. seems peculiarly cheap, esp. for an usgism.
asciilifeform: i.e. <23k / km !
diana_coman: !!up ossabot
deedbot: ossabot voiced for 30 minutes.
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-08-30#1932575 - ha, so usa can get faster @kukuruz than @uruguay, lolz.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-08-30 16:31:43 asciilifeform: diana_coman's actually faster, from usa, than mine .
diana_coman: test line citing works, quite nice
asciilifeform: diana_coman: a++
diana_coman: for completeness, here's the timing from UK, apparently Moldova wins by far: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/U5Fnx/?raw=true
asciilifeform: diana_coman: doesn't your default /log go to #o ?
asciilifeform: i.e. smaller page
diana_coman: ftr the isp guys were very prompt and willing to do as asked; although one has to ask for the most basic of things, they at least do it
diana_coman: asciilifeform: you are right; let's redo then
asciilifeform: be sure to compare identical pgs when timing ( this tripped me earlier )
asciilifeform: use one with full url w/ chan & day
diana_coman: well, I copied your test, yes; and it seems it's much closer and if anything, reversed indeed: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/AQfnO/?raw=true
diana_coman: uruguay wins after all
asciilifeform: mno, yer seein a 301
asciilifeform: see, 257 bytes
diana_coman: uhm, why?
asciilifeform: gotta use full url w/ chan, to get the page. curl normally doesn't walk 301 ( there's a toggle but i fughot )
asciilifeform: diana_coman: look in reader.py to see why, i made it default to selected chan ( for if folx want to substitute it for phf's on their blogs )
asciilifeform: this loox proper.
diana_coman: asciilifeform: ah, you mean that curl doesn't follow the redirect, right.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: from where loaded ?
asciilifeform: britain ?
diana_coman: asciilifeform: uk, reading
asciilifeform: aa ok
asciilifeform: then looks entirely like i expect.
BingoBoingo: In local WTF https://www.elobservador.com.uy/nota/como-seran-las-estaciones-con-wifi-cargador-de-celular-y-agua-caliente-anunciadas-por-la-imm-2019830154440
BingoBoingo: The clear understandable part is the hot water. They need that for their Mate pipes
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: 592494 atm.
BingoBoingo: 592530 here
asciilifeform: trinque: iirc you had some box in asia -- consider to put logger there. the moar, the merrier.
asciilifeform: i expect the load times will tell us something interesting, just as before.
asciilifeform: ( and when we teach'em to talk to each other -- then can kiss goodbye to fleanode... )
asciilifeform: will be lulzy if we even end up with bigger net than fleanode, simply from the junk boxen people ~already~ have.