snsabot: Logged on 2020-08-20 19:30:21 asciilifeform: there is presently no 100%-documented homogeneous fpga on market. and, for fundamental reasons, aint likely to be, 100% of fpga vendors live from the 'rent out the right to use our built-in NIC' and similar scamola
gregorynyssa: problem is, no one sells densely etched LUTs as a generic commodity. everyone (Xilinx, Intel...) sells "solutions," or worse, "experiences," but I still see two narrow avenues out of this mess:
gregorynyssa: (1) some universities have small VLSI facilities. see if you can get a deal to use those. (2) start your own coarse-grained fabrication-facility. 100-500 nm is fine for the next ten years of Lisp Machine revival. I don't think < 100 nm is necessary. presumably the costs of building such a facility have decreased compared to the 1980s.
gregorynyssa: basically, the Armadillo Aerospace of fabrication.
gregorynyssa: nuclear engineering students today know how to rebuild 1940s atomic bombs at a fraction of what it had cost that era. someone should likewise re-trace the machinery of 1985 from first principles.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-08-22 01:04:21 gregorynyssa: (1) some universities have small VLSI facilities. see if you can get a deal to use those. (2) start your own coarse-grained fabrication-facility. 100-500 nm is fine for the next ten years of Lisp Machine revival. I don't think < 100 nm is necessary. presumably the costs of building such a facility have decreased compared to the 1980s.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-08-22 01:11:29 gregorynyssa: nuclear engineering students today know how to rebuild 1940s atomic bombs at a fraction of what it had cost that era. someone should likewise re-trace the machinery of 1985 from first principles.
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snsabot: Logged on 2020-08-22 12:40:51 asciilifeform: re: 'with ttl and pcb' -- ever seen the machines that were built this way ? y'know, the 'five refrigerator's worth of comp , + five actual refrigerators for cooling, tops out at 1MHz' items.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-08-22 13:19:48 asciilifeform: ftr also there can be no question of a 500nm fpga holding anyffin like a nontrivial cpu. ( for comparison, e.g.
ice40 -- which is ~barely~ cpu-capable -- is a 40nm product. )
gregorynyssa: asciilifeform: suppose we don't use any FPGA. suppose you directly owned a fabrication-facility and could perform your own runs on whim. how low does the process-width have to be, for it to be worth your time?
gregorynyssa: IIRC the 80386 had a process-width of 1,000 nm.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-08-22 14:14:33 gregorynyssa: asciilifeform: suppose we don't use any FPGA. suppose you directly owned a fabrication-facility and could perform your own runs on whim. how low does the process-width have to be, for it to be worth your time?
trinque: any attempt to fab own CPUs would have to step through many other, simpler devices on the way, or yes, pull in a huge investment.
trinque: (with little chance of repayment)
snsabot: (trilema) 2015-07-26 asciilifeform: folks like to talk about 'printed' this and that, but the actual hard data on the ground are considerably more optimistic for classical problems like 'lead to gold', 'elixir of immortality', and 'energy too cheap to meter' than for desktop chip-fab.
snsabot: bvt last seen in #ossasepia on
2020-05-25 05:15:47: if i liked that code, i would have just released the vpatch immediately with performance benchmark, so i agree with 'case against'. i will look into improving the error reporting code -- this should be possible (with slightly more code in v.sh), though the precise loop analysis would take approximately the same amount of ada code as went into that experimental vpatch.
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shinohai: ^ kk i was just testing was writing a blog post
trinque is over here grunting over the perl build for why it's shitting "pod" files into the root dir.
trinque: after that it's about time to cut a genesis, I think.
trinque: I'm curious what those present think in terms of a bootloader; I touched on this in the OS series before.
trinque: lilo's small, but incurs its own assembler (bin86)
trinque: extlinux looks like it *might* be small if it can be severed from the sprawling shitheap of syslinux (which at first pass demanded a python and other nonsense)
trinque: grub eh, maybe an old one, but that's a tenuous maybe
trinque: bootloader ftr is not needed for genesis. what I've got is plenty useful by itself as gcc-sturbator.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-08-22 17:31:29 trinque: lilo's small, but incurs its own assembler (bin86)
snsabot: (trilema) 2014-11-04 asciilifeform: as a student, i was once told by a greybeard: 'you're young, but know that you have X lines of code in you. after that - log cabin.'
snsabot: Logged on 2020-08-22 17:29:16 trinque: is over here grunting over the perl build for why it's shitting "pod" files into the root dir.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-08-22 17:32:35 trinque: grub eh, maybe an old one, but that's a tenuous maybe
trinque: at least automake wants perl, and there were several others.
trinque: while automake is still used by gcc, gotta have perl, sadly.
trinque: I don't intend to genesis something that "so long as you don't blow on it too hard, don't need x y z"
trinque: ftr gprbuild seems a good candidate for blowing it all away.
trinque: (perl, m4, autoconf, automake, libtool)
trinque: the parts I've contributed so far only want posix shell
trinque: I'm pointing to eliminating the need, yes.
trinque: indeed, and god help me if I start caring about quirks of make on solaris, or wtf.
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trinque: shinohai: too stable, snoar
trinque: asciilifeform: yep, this is the difference between design and accidental evolution.
trinque: shinohai: ftr, if you ever go fishing without coming back, I suspect you'll have the balls to say adios.
trinque: I don't fault whatever someone chooses to do with his life. there's a shortage of people who can choose anything.
trinque: hard to respect the silent fade-out, cowardly turn-off of the blog and irc with moist upper lip.
shinohai: But of course. If I don't say adios, then you know i'm ded or ussa politburo has me.
trinque: heh, we'd have to be way more interesting for any of that to happen.
trinque still marvels, bitcoin didn't get uninvented, computers didn't stop their slip into oblivion.