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punkman: asciilifeform: is it possible to view log search in chronological order?
punkman: (or to have last page button)
punkman: there was a declaration of independence, which I can't find right now
punkman: bitcoin grew, #b-a grew, the cult grew, there was business happening, good times
punkman: then there was the bitbet debacle, and #trilema split with a brand new WoT, a lot of people fucked off, a new era for the cult began
punkman: and when I say cult, I tend to agree with asciilifeform's http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-01-18#1029526
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-01-18 15:06:05 asciilifeform: on this subj, and iirc asciilifeform addressed it before many times -- the reason why will NOT respect whiners about 'cults' -- is that there is NOT in fact such a thing as 'not being in a cult'. the saeculum is ALSO equally a cult. and an especially grotesque one
punkman: pete_rizzo: good example of how "lordship" was perceived, nubbins objection to being removed from third lordship list
dulapbot: (trilema) 2016-02-09 nubbins`: as a lord of bitcoin, tmsr~, cognizant of the responsibilities that my words thusly carry, i hereby solemnly rebuke any attempt to strip me of my lordship.
signpost: first one I found
signpost: pete_rizzo_: I think you'll find varying views on *what* it was serious about, but yes, serious.
signpost: I was serious about the republic of free, thinking persons. much less so the "mp is god-king".
signpost: nor was it lost on me that the former and latter were in dissonance.
pete_rizzo_: That makes sense @signpost. I wasn't asking that as a slight. I was more just trying to point out, reading older text, it's hard to appreciate tone and how something was perceived. So, it helps when looking at older events to have that gut check. I believe I understand the conceptual framework underlying B-A and hope it's obvious that is what i'm
pete_rizzo_: interested in understanding in greater detail (as well as its impacts on bitcoin at large)
pete_rizzo_: It's doubly-so with MP just because his writing style was ... well his writing style
signpost: yep no slight taken.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-31#1054944 << not currently, but it'd be trivial to add this reverse-gear
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-31 06:43:09 punkman: asciilifeform: is it possible to view log search in chronological order?
asciilifeform: $ticker btc usd
busybot: Current BTC price in USD: $47314.12
asciilifeform: !w poll
watchglass: Polling 17 nodes...
watchglass: 185.85.38.54:8333 : Could not connect!
watchglass: 84.16.46.130:8333 : Could not connect!
watchglass: 185.163.46.29:8333 : Could not connect!
watchglass: 205.134.172.6:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.081s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=698427
watchglass: 205.134.172.26:8333 : Alive: (0.081s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=698427
watchglass: 205.134.172.4:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.081s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698427
watchglass: 205.134.172.27:8333 : Alive: (0.109s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698427 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 71.191.220.241:8333 : (pool-71-191-220-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.130s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698427 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 205.134.172.28:8333 : Alive: (0.083s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=698427 (Operator: whaack)
watchglass: 54.39.156.171:8333 : (ns562940.ip-54-39-156.net) Alive: (0.220s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698427
watchglass: 143.202.160.10:8333 : Alive: (0.234s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698427
watchglass: 208.94.240.42:8333 : Alive: (0.220s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698427
watchglass: 54.38.94.63:8333 : (ns3140226.ip-54-38-94.eu) Alive: (0.253s) V=88888 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.8.88.88/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698427
watchglass: 213.109.238.156:8333 : Alive: (0.347s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698427
watchglass: 103.36.92.112:8333 : (terebe.ns01.net) Alive: (0.659s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=698427
watchglass: 176.9.59.199:8333 : (static.199.59.9.176.clients.your-server.de) Alive: (0.497s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=443359 (Operator: jurov)
watchglass: 192.151.158.26:8333 : Busy? (No answer in 100 sec.)
punkman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-31#1054944 << I posted a bunch of lines before this, seem to have disappeared
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-31 06:43:09 punkman: asciilifeform: is it possible to view log search in chronological order?
punkman: weird, guess it was a client problem
asciilifeform: punkman: disconnected
asciilifeform: (unlike fleanode, asciilifeform doesn't have the ircd configured for aggressively tossing people who aint PONGing when it PINGs. the flip side of this is that sometimes you'll be talking into /dev/null )
busybot: (unlike fleanode, asciilifeform doesn't have the ircd configured for aggressively tossing people who aint PONGing when it PONGs. the flip side of this is that sometimes you'll be talking into /dev/null )
asciilifeform: oh hm shinohai how come this ln^ triggered the bot ?
busybot: *PONGs
asciilifeform: lol that'd be why
asciilifeform: shinohai plz fix when you get a chance
shinohai: ahahaha
punkman: pete_rizzo_: here's what I wrote to you http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=st-X
asciilifeform: punkman: do me a favour plz and paste'em in for permalog
asciilifeform: (will make it easier for rizzo to reply also)
punkman: <punkman> pete_rizzo: at some point #b-a was getting popular, and to stop randoms from spamming, a system was introduced, where if you had a rating from "assbot" on bitcoin-otc WoT, you could talk in the channel.
punkman: <punkman> mp observed that "This creates a de facto aristocracy" , which a few months later, became the first lordship list
punkman: <punkman> you could say it started off as a tongue-in-cheek thing. before the first list, pretty much anyone that was regularly active in the channel, was rated by assbot.
punkman: <punkman> and yes we joked about it, it was about as serious as those "buy a lord title from scotland" ads that have been around the internet for ages
punkman: <punkman> however, the "Web of Trust" was a serious thing. we thought reputation was important, in contrast to all the clowns involved with bitcoin, who thought they could fuck up and then come back 6 months later and nobody would remember
punkman: <punkman> at some point there was an incident with bitcoin-otc bot, and then the WoT split, and a new separate WoT was created, administered by kakobrekla/assbot
punkman: <punkman> so: we have de facto aristocracy, let's call it a lordship, we have a lordship, the lords need a republic! Thus, B,TMSR (Bitcoin, the most serene republic) / La Serenissima or just "the republic" was born.
pete_rizzo_: thanks both
punkman: from my pov, there wasn't a lot of business happening after 2017 and the move to #trilema, so I was much less interested
punkman: there was mainly asciilifeform's useful work, some things supposedly happening with the Eulora game, the failed ISP
asciilifeform: punkman: i suppose you weren't interested in e.g. FG & the isp escapades ?
punkman: asciilifeform work is very interesting, the failed ISP a bit meh
asciilifeform: pete_rizzo_: dunno whether you got to the point, in your log readings, where we manufactured hardware
signpost: yep, asciilifeform's vision for computing has to be credited for many of the folks that showed up, and much that got done.
pete_rizzo_: also what happened to Pete Dushenkshi: http://www.contravex.com/2021/08/08/the-stickiness-of-culture/
pete_rizzo_: maybe i missed it but post above seems odd in the vein of his past writings
asciilifeform: pete_rizzo_: fella was a loud, empty drum of a man from day 1 imho
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-04-20 16:49:37 asciilifeform: shinohai: and since we're on subj, i'm not the least bit surprised that pete d. is huffing ether.
pete_rizzo_: Hm. I see. So he mirrored and wrote interesting things that played around with presenting the values of the group, but largely parroting it seems?
pete_rizzo_: Idk why that seems surprising, but i guess another example of how reading blogs gives a flat impression
asciilifeform: entirely parroting. (and didn't deny it)
pete_rizzo_: how do you get from here: https://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/bitcoin-killer-of-nietzschean-nihilism/ to trading NFT frogs and being entitled about it
pete_rizzo_: i mean if you want to make money on teh bubble til the end of the year, have at it, but there's no morality in it
asciilifeform: was a cardboard man, with cardboard soul, but then inherited a truckload of dough and loaded up on rolexes and similar junk, 'collectible art', etc. and began to prattle about 'financial' this and that
asciilifeform: meticulously collected other, more well-known lottery winners' prattles and in fact through that process latched onto mp.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-02-12 20:16:13 asciilifeform: there are few things on satan's green earth more noxious than a lottery winner cum judas goat 'teaching success'.
pete_rizzo_: " I can assure you that someone like myself who tends to fall down rabbit holes now and again is perfectly capable of switching steeds when a faster horse comes along, and NFTs have waaaaay more potential for cultural impact and investment upside than Bitcoin at this point."
pete_rizzo_: This is a literal quote from this person lol
asciilifeform: was always, imho , this.
pete_rizzo_: hm. good to know i guess
pete_rizzo_: Uploaded file: https://uploads.kiwiirc.com/files/f88b4020685398682eb016bb1c78eb50/pasted.txt
pete_rizzo_: I replied. still confusing
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-04-27 mircea_popescu: you may think eg pete_dushenski is a little strange for desiring nothing other than you know, making a new website where to retell fuckgoats shop page "in his own words". but who does anything else, on that sad continent ? where ? when ?
asciilifeform: imho pete_d was a stereotypical extrovert, the kind who 'all about the personalities' and thinks of technical details as irrelevant fluff 'for lesser mortals' to bother with. while was in mp's darktriad orbit -- pushed (what he thought of as) bitcoinism. after expulsion -- went to next, in his mind's eye, 'strong horse'. and so still today.
pete_rizzo_: @asciilifeform do you have the raw URL for the '17 blog. It seems like it's gone and now redirects
asciilifeform: pete's ? loads fine here
asciilifeform: https://archive.is/B3NQV and https://archive.is/XAQ56 if for some reason you can't see the original
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-31 13:40:47 pete_rizzo_: Uploaded file: https://uploads.kiwiirc.com/files/f88b4020685398682eb016bb1c78eb50/pasted.txt
asciilifeform: 'The points that you put forth here are largely confusing to me reading your past work also. The argument you advanced, so far as I understand it, was that Bitcoin makes money an inflexible mathematical law, and that the cause of advancing it over alternatives is a moral one owing to how this conflicts with the current make-up of global power structures. '
asciilifeform: 'It does seem rather odd given that Bitcoin has now popularly aligned with the ideas you previously helped popularize that you no longer support those views. So, naturally, I suppose I'm curious to understand why. '
signpost: there are a couple archetypes of failed idiots that showed up. this one's the "I'm ahead of the curve" larper.
asciilifeform: ( pete_rizzo_ )
signpost: see also: I'm transgressive! and later "daddy hurt me" varieties.
asciilifeform: pete_rizzo_: the key to the riddle, such as it is, is that some people are attracted to 'commotion' rather than technical merit of e.g. bitcoin.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-02-04 13:46:08 asciilifeform: mp was talented mountebank, a la barnum, and in #t maintained an addictive, to many folx, atmosphere of 'движуха' (untranslatable, but roughly 'errything in motion!!', 'happening!')
asciilifeform: for them, where 'commotion', there -- 'things are happening', 'let's be there'
asciilifeform: shitcoin (e.g. eth) pushers specialize concretely in creating this kind of atmosphere. the pete_d's follow like moths into light bulb.
signpost: probably another aspect worth mentioning. "this is not my real life".
signpost: I see a lot of escapist-porn in the old logs.
asciilifeform: signpost: imho is an occupational hazard of riding in what seems a 'to the moon!'(tm)(r) lift
signpost: not excluding myself by any means.
asciilifeform: signpost: it aint always coupled with a belief that 'one day, My Real Life Will Start'
signpost: the "real" away from the keyboard is still a slow-motion soviet-style collapse
asciilifeform: (for asciilifeform for instance was and is not. comfortable w/ the knowledge that not errybody gets 'a real life')
signpost still thinks the tech stack itself has merit, if probably late by now.
asciilifeform realizes that the earlier sentence fails parity check. s/.../asciilifeform was not and is not/.
punkman would gamble on cheap NFTs, but not about to pay $300 in fees to buy $50 item
asciilifeform: punkman: is there a sudden shortage of what to gamble on , that you'd consider such a thing ?
asciilifeform: pretty sure various 'satoshi dice' clones still exist.
asciilifeform: can gamble all you like there
punkman: I like some of the art, some of them come with physical item, etc
thestringpuller: did pete_d go full mEth head?
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: long ago
thestringpuller: Hilarious that he couldn't get the FG working and put it in an art piece and tried to sell it.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: once you understand that he was buying 'religious' artifact, it makes 'over9000x' more sense
thestringpuller: then again I only used mine for generating private btc keys - nothing fancy by any means
thestringpuller: well the RNG to generate teh keys
signpost: I wager the dude had some mp hats and suits, or w/e he thought was the equiv.
signpost: note the rolex post that links back to FG post.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: so you actually used the microscope as microscope, rather than hammer. pete_d -- as hammer.
asciilifeform: signpost: aha. imho fella was entirely consistent, in fact, under the surface.
thestringpuller: i mean that's like saying "here is electon microscope" and I used it for say, looking at 10th grade biology slides for class project
asciilifeform: is what most microscopes in the world used for, what of it.
signpost: asciilifeform: from where I sit the only difference between mp and pete is former had more cash, and a better education.
asciilifeform: schooling is perfectly legit. and in point of fact asciilifeform's 'beef' vs pete_d isn't that he 'misused FG' or somesuch. but simply that 'his lights were on, but no one was home'
thestringpuller: just saying, wasn't doing anything ground breaking with the ground breaking microscope
asciilifeform: signpost: entirely possib
signpost was an uneducated derp himself, until he noticed upon reading the classics that mp was filing off serials.
signpost: check it out, it's aristotle with more cock references
thestringpuller: but I guess "fundamentals" are good to learn regardless
signpost: heidegger, nietzsche, etc etc
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: my point was that you at least realized that the thing is to look through rather than pound nails or stun fish.
signpost: which, pete_rizzo_, please avoid beatification of the guy.
thestringpuller: what is beatification?
punkman: friend was over for vacation, he would buy as many rolexes as they'd sell him (from specific set of models) to resell back home. he went to jewelry/watch shop, in swimsuite/flip-flops. and they would not sell any to him.
asciilifeform: punkman: lol, did they say wainot ? thought his money was fake ?
signpost: thestringpuller: retroactive purification by church, typically in the context of a pope declaring somebody (after death) was worthy of sainthood.
punkman: could be the looking like a bum, or he has theory about shops refusing to sell to known resellers
punkman: whole thing sounded like the upscale version of "limited edition plastic sneakers"
thestringpuller: signpost: the line "die hero or live long enough to become villain" comes to mind, although not entirely applicable
asciilifeform: punkman: all veblenisms imho largely interchangeable and follow same dynamics.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: it's bullshit tho
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: never walked into a ferrari dealership in sandles and shorts?
signpost: heh, batman quote?!?
thestringpuller: signpost: if you saw my comic collection and how much I've paid my friend organizing it, you'd wonder why I don't use more of them XD
signpost chortles
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: did walk in (long walk in the sun and it had air conditioning..) and the salesfolx were immediately 'lemme show you xyz'
thestringpuller: basement basically a local comic shop now
signpost: if mp was doing anything in bitcoin, he'd have funded a few companies in the wot.
signpost: pretty much end of story.
shinohai: "Alfred, I had that dream again" .... "It's ok Sir, I'll wash the sheets again no problem!"
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: last time I tried they wouldn't even let me get in the car let alone test drive
thestringpuller: signpost: i remember he tried to buy a stake in XotikaTV but thickasthieves declined the offer
signpost: implication isn't it had to be me, either. the guy to fund was asciilifeform, and not with worthless mpex notional paper.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: i'd guess you tried in 1972 or similar, when 'fancy auto' was still a 'for rockefellers' item rather than 'for plebes willing to max out creditcard'
shinohai: I was gonna outright make a deal to buy Xotika but couldn't get the guy to talk much about it.
signpost: xotika was another good business. look at the onlyfans shit now.
signpost: *potentially good business
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: it's probably cause I looked homeless at the time and not like a reputable member of society
thestringpuller: living too comfortably makes you ridiculously lazy
signpost: not all rich are lazy.
signpost: there are folks funding companies in this space.
thestringpuller: that's why i'm glad I wasn't rich in my 20s i'd probably have heart failure in my 30s
asciilifeform: signpost: funnily enuff (and hm i'm quite certain we had this thread.. but can't seem to excavate) 'not give people coin' was 1 of the mpisms that actually made sense to asciilifeform .
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-29 15:58:20 asciilifeform: thimbronion: actually this part always made sense to asciilifeform . mp did not want to be surrounded with (what called) 'jobsworths'. wanted fanatics strictly.
signpost: juche business only then?
signpost: this isn't how it's done.
asciilifeform: tho in point of fact he did have salaried devs -- diana for instance.
signpost: right.
signpost: sure, don't give founders coin. give the company coin.
thestringpuller: signpost: i can't find a reason for why xotika shut down, it just vanished one day like some Atlas Shrugged shit
signpost: thestringpuller: imho the whole world needs the collapse we're headed for to buck up.
signpost: nobody's going to john galt us out of the death-terrified stupor.
punkman: there was also a certain lack of a business model that didn't involve shouting at all potential customers "go read 6 months log!!"
thestringpuller: Cause it was entirely closed loop when they released their statements. Hosting, paying the cam girls, etc. Everything 100% coin.
signpost: punkman: indeed.
signpost: thestringpuller: yep, again, there was *at least* an onlyfans-sized opportunity in there.
thestringpuller: Have no idea why it's not here still today? Maybe threats from the spooks?
signpost: the spooks sell drugs. they don't shut this kind of thing down.
thestringpuller: It did shutdown around the time of the pornhub thing with the sex trafficking.
signpost: sloth is right there as ample explanation.
asciilifeform: signpost: re upstack -- mp did 'give company coin'. the catch was that at no point was 'company' an entity distinct from his own whims.
asciilifeform: so only ever 'gave' coin in the sense of moving from own left pocket to right.
thestringpuller: ah yes. a game company that doesn't make games.
thestringpuller: it makes *check notes* server side cryptography for every client call
signpost: if he was actually a billionaire in the 1k bubble he had enough money to single-handedly build the entire bitcoin economy in the 20k bubble.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-25 12:56:02 asciilifeform: and secondarily, that what 'we' were doing primarily was stroking a maniac's ego, and that anything else was done -- strictly incidental byproduct. and at all times maniac was struggling to optimize for 'moar product, less byproduct'.
punkman: even rpietila had more playable game than minigame
signpost: fuck him, on those grounds.
thestringpuller: punkman: precisely; and when i logged into eulora it was harder to play than Eve, which is a nope from me dawg.
signpost: dorsey is creating where he got fat and drank. how bout that?
thestringpuller: i will spend my time self harming playing League of Legends instead
thestringpuller: I don't know how to evaluate Dorsey's actions. All I know is the eth maxi's were hella mad when he said "he wasn't interested in ethereum"
asciilifeform: who's dorsey?
shinohai: The twatter guy
thestringpuller: Jack Dorsey the founder of twitter and square right signpost? I think we are talking about same person
signpost: correct
pete_rizzo_: yes
asciilifeform: lemme guess, has own shitcoin?
signpost: nope. building on bitcoin.
thestringpuller: nah wants to integrate bitcoin into twitter
pete_rizzo_: bitcoin only so far
asciilifeform: lol why not also into ferrari. and international mars station.
thestringpuller: and eth maxis were mad he wouldn't integrate nfts
signpost: and before we dur-hur about not really bitcoin, it's not the point.
signpost: the only people building anywhere near btc are dorsies, is the point.
asciilifeform: signpost: well by that token karpeles was building 'even nearer' btc
thestringpuller: the liability of not kowtowing to KYC is too high these days; too many people going to jail
asciilifeform: (unless i'm missing some detail?)
signpost: you are. the point is nobody is building *on* btc.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: doesn't make a lick of diff. if you're 'kyc' -- you're simply working low wage job for usg.
signpost: they're bolting the empire to a fetish-of.
signpost: two possibilites if MP did not bother to build. 1) his "billionaire" status was the total notional value on MPEX times the exch rate, like any fractional reserve scam, or 2) worst person ever to live, in terms of opportunity vs execution.
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: irony that my college drug dealers have much more financial freedom...
thestringpuller: or maybe not ironic at all
mats: afaict he has no plans to build a permissioned bitcoin with aml kyc
asciilifeform: can say asciilifeform is thick, but not clear to him that ' all worthwhile things to be built on.' no one builds 'on' e.g. spoons, but spoons still useful.
signpost: the idea that there were no moves available to someone with 1mil actual BTC is not conceivable.
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: but i thought your main criticism is that the bedrock foundations are as flimsy as cardboard
pete_rizzo_: I'm a bit confused. He helped list a lot of early companies on MPEX, no? Assuming he was a shareholder in many?
shinohai: His latest idea is to build a "decentralized" exchange.
pete_rizzo_: I've gone back through the logs and don't understand the argument that MPEX didn't support the bitcoin ecosystem of the day. It seems like the only viable ecosystem of non-VC bitcoin businesses
thestringpuller: pete_rizzo_: all those companies folded except S.MG which technically still exists with 8k BTC equity; or maybe never existed at all
signpost: pete_rizzo_: yeah, he listed a few company NFTs on a scam exchange most of us didn't use, and those who did apparently were exit scammed.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-10 12:46:11 asciilifeform: punkman: similarly here; you can call e.g. a gox 'decentralized'; doesn't make it so (or for that matter make 'decentralized gox' anything other than a joke, conceptually)
signpost: see logs for mats' episode of this.
pete_rizzo_: Right, but a lot were shut down due to regulatory pressures no?
thestringpuller: S.DICE was probably the most successful and best MPEx IPO and Voorhees got spooked and delisted it.
mats: mpex is an unregistered exchange, theres no such thing as regulatory pressure
thestringpuller: everything else folded. Bitbet due to "management issues". S.WOL due to lack of betting volume, S.MPOE because I guess MP said "we were too stupid to trade options"
pete_rizzo_: Right. It just seems like there was a period of BTC company building that was defined by MPEX, GLBSE and Gox, and of those, MPEX was at least the only one that never collapsed/lost money
mats: yes
pete_rizzo_: I think you would have to look at it as a product of the time. GLBSE was much worse, so was Gox.
thestringpuller: S.QNTR was decent, but couldn't produce revenue.
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-05-11 04:53:33 jurov: to make matters clear from my side: "withdrawals are possible except for people who ask" === "mpex is in default and thus coinbr too"
asciilifeform: i.e. went fullbore gox
thestringpuller: Oh yea and if you happened to have money on MPEx before after 2020 you were goxxed
signpost: correct, which suggests to me the thing didn't even have enough to cover what was in the notional piggy.
shinohai: I got 20K shares in S.MG left if anyone wants to buy >.>
thestringpuller: I remember mod6 saying he was worried MP ran off with his money and he had an MPEx account and that account was anonymous
pete_rizzo_: Hm. I wasn't aware of the withdrawal problems on MPEX. But I didn't follow it to the point where it shut down. Are there references for when MPEX shut down?
thestringpuller: So I guess he lived long enough to become villain signpost ;)
signpost recalls a much earlier sfyl which lost somebody significant btc, but won't mention who unless he feels like it.
signpost: "oops lol this gpg key is 'expired'" episode.
thestringpuller: pete_rizzo_: I will let asciilifeform the oracle of logs do the honors of digging up the thread, since he seems to be able to navigate them as a second nature
thestringpuller: signpost: was that during the ROTA era? or was that with Wences
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: fwiw mp ~personally~ [https://www.blockchain.com/btc/address/19NNyVDVqco5PRVZRqt9i7ECAP6CuyLZu4] wasn't the least bit broke when exited the stage.
signpost: sure, rich. I'm shitting on the "billionaire" thing.
asciilifeform: but mpex easily could've been, being pyramid in the style of mavrodi's MMM.
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: I don't doubt he had money, but the consequence of his actions are indistinguishable from karpeles
thestringpuller: jurov one of the most trusted if not most trusted bitcoin broker getting defrauded?
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: more pretensions than karpeles. and the latter did not create anything like the same calibre of gluetrap.
thestringpuller: jurov never lost a single satoshi of his customer's money
signpost: $45mil is not enough to be single-man VC fund and still live well off one's dividends.
asciilifeform: pete_rizzo_: btw have you read asciilifeform's 2013 review of mpex ? imho pertinent.
thestringpuller: the prescient line at the end hits different now
shinohai: Agreed, jurov_ always was A++ person to do business with.
pete_rizzo_: No. Here's that blockchain.info website on the wayback machine: https://web.archive.org/web/20191002091421/https://www.blockchain.com/btc/address/19NNyVDVqco5PRVZRqt9i7ECAP6CuyLZu4
pete_rizzo_: The other link doesn't work for me
asciilifeform: pete_rizzo_: are you in china or similar shithole where most www blocked ?
asciilifeform: this seems to be not first 'can't load'
pete_rizzo_: i'm in the US
asciilifeform: pete_rizzo_: what do you get as errorcoad?
asciilifeform: (in either case)
signpost: pete_rizzo_'s interdicted for consorting with problematic peoples
shinohai: I suspect pete_rizzo_ 's irc client adds a `]` to the end of link because of the way links work here.
asciilifeform: pete_rizzo_ : was it ^ ?
pete_rizzo_: yup
pete_rizzo_: added the bracket
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-31#1055203 << never 'officially' shut down in point of fact. simply started 'confiscating' funds of people mp disapproved of. first mike_c, then jurov and his customers .
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-31 14:57:06 pete_rizzo_: Hm. I wasn't aware of the withdrawal problems on MPEX. But I didn't follow it to the point where it shut down. Are there references for when MPEX shut down?
dulapbot: (trilema) 2019-12-16 mike_c: I pulled a MPEX statement in november, but post-dividend I have not been able to (getting the 'Unrecognized signature. Please email your public key first.')
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-05-13 09:48:38 asciilifeform: jurov: be sure to let yer customers know they weren't stolen from, but rather 'condemned to confiscation by the sovereign'.
shinohai: I almost forgot that my final S,QNTR shares were lost in that brouhaha, a bingoboingo kindly compensated me for their value (which he did not hafta do, but was gentlemanly nonetheless ).
asciilifeform: pete_rizzo_: above link imho amply illustrates how mp died having thoroughly pissed all over what he had prev. claimed to believe.
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-05-13 13:06:15 asciilifeform: and imho, the folx who paid, got what they were paying for : 1000km of blog about 'majesty', 10GB of photos of naked chix eating caviar, etc. ( if they thought they were paying for 'like nasdaq but w/out confiscations', they were morons, it's a perpetuum mobile and there aint no such thing )
thestringpuller: shinohai: dang. i had really high hopes for QNTR but could never seem to find a revenue stream.
thestringpuller: but i'm finding most journalism is bank rolled and isn't expected to make any money
shinohai: I think Qntra was one of the best Republican ventures at time, I certainly benefited from it immensely, financially and otherwise.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: virtually all 'journalism' is simply advertising.
asciilifeform: shinohai: i'd've happily continued writing for qntra if still existed.
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: although the domain doesn't exist the spirit can live on and [insert other hippie dippy optimism here]
shinohai: Same, though strangely when I returned in 2020 after conversing with BB, MP abruptly decides to shutter it. (No surprise)
asciilifeform: could still exist, even, if the denoument hadn't taken the wind outta bingo's sails
thestringpuller: hmm. making me want to restart it now.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: it'd be rather like restarting, i dunno, 'iskra'. or 'der pimpf.'
asciilifeform: the culture is gone.
shinohai would gladly start writing again if a neo-Qntra existed but at present has only blog to suffice.
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: no need to be a dream smasher!
thestringpuller: granted the Qntra WP theme was never publicly released
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: if you really want it, ask bb nicely, maybe will share
shinohai: thestringpuller: y not start *new* enterprise with Qntra-esque news instead?
asciilifeform: scoopbot: qntra wasn't simply 'a news www' tho.
asciilifeform: fckig tabcomprlete
asciilifeform cycles bolt on kvm
thestringpuller: til asciilifeform is human
asciilifeform: s/scoopbot/shinohai
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: there's prolly 1km+ in logs of asciilifeform elbowing kbd in various ways
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: to be fair I thought you were like guy from Snow Crash that is like 70% cyborg and plugged directly into his computer.
mats: the heavily disabled asian guy?
thestringpuller: mats: knows what's up
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: lol
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: in actual fact asciilifeform uses e.g. keyboard older than himself
thestringpuller: I would too, but a certain someone got mad at all the clickity clack
asciilifeform: ( and, for instance, the most recently installed machine in the room asciilifeform currently sitting in, is a msdos box )
asciilifeform: lol i remember these ! same people who made 'imperator'
asciilifeform at one time actually considered to install an 'imperator', lol ; then realized that it'd likely destroy stairway here
thestringpuller: https://www.amazon.com/IWR1-IMPERATORWORKS-Gaming-Computer-Monitors/dp/B07BKT53K7 only 4300, may actually get this for the basement which is slowly becoming giant toy room for adults
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: if you do -- post about it; i don't presently know anyone who's used one
signpost: lol, needs moar grandma's boy.
signpost: insufficient number of screens.
asciilifeform: iirc there's hooks for 3
asciilifeform traditionally prefers 'mesh' chairs to the leather stuff tho
asciilifeform: they don't wear through, more or less, at all. and 'arse breathes'
mats: aeron master race
asciilifeform: hey, 'cheap & angry'
asciilifeform: ( foreigners may scatch heads. but in usa actually cheap, as there's ~inexhaustible supply of old ones from defunkt corps )
mats: pff, msrp is like $1300
asciilifeform: mats: no one but megacorp ever pays that stickerprice lol
asciilifeform: iirc the 1 i'm currently sitting in was ~300 , bought from the back of a truck (literally)
asciilifeform: before this gets lost -- the shit-foundations are trivial, in grand scheme of things, to fix. no 'mars missions' needed, no breakthroughs, simply coupla hundred man-hours.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-31 14:52:28 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: but i thought your main criticism is that the bedrock foundations are as flimsy as cardboard
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-10-01 15:00:29 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: there's not a thing that'd rise to the level of 'plan'. asciilifeform in particular wrote 3 things: 'nqb', a largely-complete coder/decoder for the formats used in trb; ffa, with which possible to perform the cryptonumerics; and 'cryostat', to implement a o(1) db .
asciilifeform: software is shit simply because no incentives for the contrary.
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-10-01 19:19:53 asciilifeform: there are (imho -- ~incurable) perverse incentives at work, which ensure that most of extant softs is liquishit, while the good stuff -- you will ~never hear about .
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-10-01 19:19:53 asciilifeform: there are (imho -- ~incurable) perverse incentives at work, which ensure that most of extant softs is liquishit, while the good stuff -- you will ~never hear about .
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-01-14 15:29:06 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: it only has 'incentive to work' if a) there's competition in the market b) competitors have, potentially, 'moar working' softs
asciilifeform: ( grr #2 was supposed to be this )
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-12-02 13:45:39 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-12-02#1025708 << it aint about incompetence. e.g. tagged memory architectures existed in 1970s. instead, it's about this. there is 0 systemic incentive to release products which work 'now and forever' and require 0 'upgrades', 'mitigations', etc.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform would happily produce e.g. ada replacement for trb. but for whom? instead currently fixing bugs in a vast legacy [censored] for [outfit no one ever heard of], and similar.
asciilifeform: i.e. 'unsexy' plumbing for people who pay.
billymg: for anyone who's curious, this atk-bridge-2.0 shim worked for me. was able to emerge gtk+3 without pulling in any systemdisms, and from there was able to emerge my preferred text editor, 'sublime text'
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-30 15:31:48 asciilifeform: btw apparently https://github.com/sabotage-linux/atk-bridge-fake exists.
billymg: someone also made an ebuild for it, which also worked and tricks portage into thinking it's installed
asciilifeform: billymg: neato!
asciilifeform: billymg: somehow i thought 'sublime' were commercial/cloased
billymg: The reasons for why at-spi is not optional in gtk+:3 are:
billymg: * Upstream made the decision to make accessibility framework mandatory.
billymg: * It is used in unittests frameworks such as dogtail.
billymg: * We try not to diverge from upstream when there is no clear reason to. Avoiding dbus in the context of graphical applications was not, until now at least.Yy
billymg: nnn
billymg: ignore last few characters, getting used to weechat
billymg: asciilifeform: sublime requires putting an accept line in package.license, yes
asciilifeform: billymg: items like this are traditionally statically-linked tho
asciilifeform: so rather odd that it has deps
billymg: asciilifeform: not sure, but i know it wouldn't emerge prior to installing gtk+3
asciilifeform: interesting
asciilifeform: 'worst of both worlds'
shinohai: billymg: Did you build weechat using ebuild or manually from sources? I just recently tried to build manually with gcc and builds but segfaults.
billymg: asciilifeform: it might be open source, but still require commercial license?
asciilifeform not uses subj, doesn't know
billymg: i'm now running into other problems with both chromium and firefox
asciilifeform: billymg: what kinda problem?
billymg: i'll post relevant details here, currently churning through another attempt at firefox
asciilifeform: ( if it's fonts -- i've the cure )
billymg: chromium failed on some ninja mksnapshot thing, and looked like machine ran out of memory (despite having 32gb to work with)
billymg: some users reported similar issues, suggested building with -system-icu USE flag
billymg: then it ran into another bug with ninja and again looked like it ran out of memory
billymg: lots of forum posts pointing to nodejs version, or maybe it's icu version, or clang version, etc. etc.
billymg: seems, to me at least, equally 'spray and pray' approach as massaging css
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-23 16:26:41 asciilifeform: cssism tricks ALWAYS, seems, break ~somewhere~
billymg: and hey, look at that, firefox-91.0.2 built successfully, and works
billymg now has working browser so probably won't put too much more time into this, but is now building chromium again in order to reproduce the errors for the logs
billymg: and i'm building the version from this overlay, the upstream versions not fooled by atk-bridge shim, whereas this one makes atk optional provided you have working gtk+
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-30 12:58:15 billymg: asciilifeform: so i found this overlay which has an ebuild for chromium that makes dbus optional, but this depends on the atk use flag, and if disabled, no dbus, but then wants to use gtk3
billymg: asciilifeform: this is the error with system-icu, running again to get the different error with -system-icu
asciilifeform: billymg: may want to try w/ -j1 instead of j9
asciilifeform: (re: the oom)
billymg: asciilifeform: ok, will queue that variation
asciilifeform must bbl.
verisimilitude: Hello, pete_rizzo_; I enjoyed the two linked articles well enough.
verisimilitude: In the P2SH piece, the following using a feminine pronoun in what I regard an obnoxious way: ``A multisig user would pay for the added transaction size when she spent the coins, while the extra data required posed a smaller burden on the network.''
verisimilitude: In the other, every instance of ``was'' in the first paragraph should be ``were'', as should that in the paragraph containing the phrase ``controlled anarchy''.
verisimilitude: There are other errors I don't deign to mention.
verisimilitude: Check the logs for my messages, pete_rizzo_.
verisimilitude: Check today's logs, that's.
billymg: asciilifeform: for when you return, the other error when attempting with -system-icu
billymg: will now go back to using system-icu and try with -j1
kakobrekla: i see you guys having fun in history class
kakobrekla: what can i say, dont butcher it hehe
asciilifeform: wb kakobrekla . maybe add sumthing, if can spare the cycles.
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: pete_rizzo_ is from some fishwrap iirc but doubt that he'll eat 9000+km of log from '16
pete_rizzo_: lol
asciilifeform: pete_rizzo_: i expect you've already met kakobrekla in the era1 log. chair of bitbet.
pete_rizzo_: I can read and index a lot of material. I try to make sure I have some guideposts for log digging. just so I have some guideposts and know where/what I'm looking at
asciilifeform: ( for pete_rizzo_ and other log archaeologists -- beginning of the destruction of bitbet . )
dulapbot: (trilema) 2016-03-01 mircea_popescu: sooo... it pains me to say that bitbet was just on the receiving end of a concerted miner withholding attack.
kakobrekla: what/who prompted you to dig through this obscure part of timespace pete_rizzo_ ? maybe i missed it somewhere
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-25 10:48:50 asciilifeform: meanwhile, this fella replies. if he appears while asciilifeform is out, folx, plox to set a table for him.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-30 20:47:11 pete_rizzo_: eureka
kakobrekla: ba was like obscure (and eod irrelevant) subsubculture of obscure bitcoin subculture, so remote that its not even mentioned in any of the writings covering bitcoin history.
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: outta curiosity, who in yer mind 'relevant' ? karpeles ?
kakobrekla: asciilifeform im surprised you are not convinced somehow he is sent by the usg haha
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: i have nfi who sent, lol
asciilifeform: log -- public; if e.g. clinton wants to read it, and ask q's -- wainot chew apart for him, may help noobs in future.
pete_rizzo_: Gonna be kind of a long answer
asciilifeform: (to read it, that is)
pete_rizzo_: I had reached out to MP in April or so (just prior to his passing). As I said above, I was Editor of CoinDesk (sorry!) from 2013-2019. At the end of 2017, I became pretty convinced bitcoin worked finally. So I left CoinDesk... and resolved to do something better for Bitcoin. I started researching the "block size wars," with the intent of writing
pete_rizzo_: something like a compendium of that period. But I wasn't super satisfied with what I was doing... felt like I didn't know the people or that I had complete answers for what went on...
pete_rizzo_: basically after a year of doing interviews for that decided to just go back to the start of Bitcoin Talk and revisit the logs. That resulted in two longer history-type articles that answered questions I had...The first on P2SH (or how bitcoin developer politics took shape post-satoshi). Then I did the Satoshi-Gavin transition (looking at how/why
pete_rizzo_: that transition took place). I still kept just being really confused about where "bitcoin maximalism" began
kakobrekla: relevant, depends how you measure, but i dont see we did much impact. or maybe im just speaking of myself and you all did magical things somehow that resulted in meaningful differences in the world.
pete_rizzo_: Looking at the development of bitcoin, it seems to me more and more that B-A was really important to establishing parts of the bitcoin ideology that are much much more mainstream, and that took a lot longer to permeate outward
kakobrekla: anyone read blocksize wars, the bitmex book ? i havent yet
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: from 'can you see the diff in the tv?' lens -- 0. from asciilifeform's pov e.g. trb existing is an entirely different universe (1 in which asciilifeform is willing to use bitcoin) from one where doesn't exist, for instance.
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: i.e. answer depends entirely on observer's pov.
pete_rizzo_: For example, most of the people involved in the UASF seem to come from B-A. And the entire social stylings of teh movement seem based on 1) Node sovereignty and 2) Being outwardly hostile and soverign. So UASF increasingly just seems like a replay of what developed in B-A
punkman: whatever the influence of #b-a and MP, the bitcoin wizards are still moving forward and piling complexity on the protocol
asciilifeform: punkman: and here is e.g. asciilifeform 1) happily ignoring all of it 2) still able to transact
pete_rizzo_: yeah but something did change. you can even see it with taproot, where there's a whole class of newer developers who internalized what happened in B-A through the UASF
asciilifeform: pete_rizzo_: remind me what 'uasf' was
pete_rizzo_: user-activated soft fork was the line in the sand against Jihan and the big blockers. It was a piece of code that would have had a certain subset of nodes just implement segwit
kakobrekla: asciilifeform my pov looking back is we rightfully not recognized of achieving anything meaningful. you can hate me now, if you havent yet.
kakobrekla: we are*
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: i don't disagree re 'not recognized'; simply don't think that this reich.recognition ~does anything~
kakobrekla: sorry, im super tired
asciilifeform: fact remains, asciilifeform is able to use classical bitcoin. despite 1e10$ worth of reich efforts.
asciilifeform: this is sufficient 'achieve' from asciilifeform's pov ( and not, lol , his 'achieve' alone ; dun matter any )
kakobrekla: the empirical evidence that your work had anything to do with that is as strong as chinise miners collusion of bbet tx
pete_rizzo_: hm. yeah sorry to hear that. just giving my perspective. I think the arguments for Bitcoin sovereignty, running a node, anti-developer sentiment, and the social stylings of bitcoin users as aspirationally soverign ended up being pretty foundational
kakobrekla: but if you wanna paint a pretty picutre for pete_rizzo_ etc imma just shutup
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: i don't think you grasp my meaning. simply, bitcoin ~for asciilifeform~ would not exist if the only way to use it were the prb ball o'shit. it'd be simply yet anuther mswin idjicy to him.
kakobrekla: yeah but you dont actually use the goddamn thing
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: how not ? i use. or what, there's a min. # of decimal placed req'd to count as 'use' ?
asciilifeform: *places
kakobrekla: paypal can do that
pete_rizzo_: yeah @kakobrekla i'm sure you have a different perspective being inside the thing. It sounded like it all went really badly eventually with TSMR
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: taxpal
kakobrekla: sea shells, cash in mail, food stamp idk whatever
asciilifeform: rright, teleporting seashels you can hide in yer brain
asciilifeform: (where can i buy some?)
kakobrekla: you are not moving anywhere, you said it yourself 100xtimes
kakobrekla: you dont need to hide in brain
pete_rizzo_: maybe i'm overthinking it... but as far as I figure it, you start with the assumptions. What do people now believe to be true about Bitcoin. Where do those ideas trace back to and who popularized them (if not Satoshi). They have to come from somewhere
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: i'm rather curious, why so invested in 'bitcoin is useless' in your head ? i'd imagine would be opposite, what with having a heap
asciilifeform: pete_rizzo_: 1st step to enlightenment imho -- forget about 'people believe'. most of what you see on the net re: subj aint from 'people', is instead from these..
punkman: I don't see why using prb as "node" is that much different from trb. can craft transactions with many different tools and sign offline, send it whatever node.
asciilifeform: punkman: have you read erry line of prb ?
asciilifeform: ( and formed accurate model of how behaves ? )
kakobrekla: on average month i move a few mil usd worth of it, type of txes that traditional finance rails wouldnt approve of
kakobrekla: that is closer to 'using it' for me
kakobrekla: but whatever
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: by that token mp 'even more used' when moved 1k from one pocket to another (he was in the habit of doing this, i suspect from some ill-conceived notion of obfuscation)
kakobrekla: i didnt come here to argue
kakobrekla: yeah im not doing that
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: i'm not certain that we disagree re the facts. but re ideology. i reject the 'bitcoin sphere' -- y'know, the one that shilled for karpeles, and for bigblox, and segshit, etc. as a political act; without appeal to 'but xyz'. categorically.
asciilifeform: ( could even make solid argument for 'bitcoin still not exists' because fits-in-head provably correct client not yet written, for that matter. )
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-31 15:42:03 asciilifeform: before this gets lost -- the shit-foundations are trivial, in grand scheme of things, to fix. no 'mars missions' needed, no breakthroughs, simply coupla hundred man-hours.
asciilifeform: i.e. trb is still too much of a prb.
asciilifeform: y'know, rather like jew does not care to hear about how great is hitler's autobahn; or hitler does not care to hear about jewish composers. political rejection, no appeal.
kakobrekla: you go to war with the army that you have, not the army you wish you had
kakobrekla: you sould to me like those leftist socio studies homeless hippies
asciilifeform: ultimately you go to war with own feet, and hands, is the thing
kakobrekla: sound*
punkman: this political rejection -> can't do business with anyone was a major problem
pete_rizzo_: Some of what you all have said is a bit above my head. But hopefully this brings a useful other perspecive and y'all understand where i'm at
pete_rizzo_: not entirely sure if we're on the same subject
asciilifeform: punkman: can't speak for erryone, but e.g. asciilifeform entirely willing to do biz with anyone -- who gets in the wot!
punkman: what wot?
signpost: drunk uncle stumbles in and pisses on thanksgiving turkey, lol
signpost: howdy kakobrekla
signpost: pete_rizzo_: a fundamental issue of the failed political movement called tmsr is grunted at in this thread.
asciilifeform: punkman: my l1.
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: your pov is 'having principles is for idjit hippies' or do i oversimplify somehow ?
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-31#1055302 << before this is lost to the sands, I would really like to know what this costs.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-31 15:46:22 asciilifeform: asciilifeform would happily produce e.g. ada replacement for trb. but for whom? instead currently fixing bugs in a vast legacy [censored] for [outfit no one ever heard of], and similar.
kakobrekla: you can have ALL the principles, which means you need to choose which ones you have ... but oh thats not principled at all! well tough tits its as good as it comes
kakobrekla: cant have ALL
asciilifeform: signpost: which, concretely ?
signpost: nqb.
signpost: sorry, finished ada-node.
asciilifeform: signpost: it costs asciilifeform never having to think about employment again; hence # not quoted.
signpost: lolk
signpost: this is the one contract you wont take eh?
asciilifeform deliberately left that 'pandora's box' closed , to avoid lulthread
asciilifeform: signpost: it'd require getting off the train of my multi-yr existing ones. which aint replaceable on-demand.
asciilifeform expects signpost , having been in the biz, to know how this worx
signpost: yep, wasn't sure if you were signaling slack to fit it in.
signpost doesn't expect asciilifeform to never sleep.
asciilifeform: signpost: wat's 'signaling slack' ?
signpost: "I have such and such quarter free to finish this thing"
asciilifeform: lol ifonly
signpost: at which point I'd be asking the assembled why we haven't started a fund to make that happen.
asciilifeform: 'free' for asciilifeform simply means 'i have whole 3wk of evenings! omfg!'
punkman: bitcoinfoundation still has some coin, doesn't it?
asciilifeform: !q seen-anywhere jurov
dulapbot: jurov last seen in #asciilifeform on 2021-07-02 12:26:27: i read about mp yesterday, then said to myself stop procrastinating and check back
asciilifeform: punkman: theoretically yes (not spent any, iirc, at any pt)
kakobrekla: give it to alfie, he can then 'use the bitcoin' and retire
kakobrekla: will be poetic.
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: laff if you like , it wouldn't suffice even if asciilifeform somehow ate all of it
kakobrekla: meh i dont get any kicks anymore by laffing
asciilifeform: it's good for you, kakobrekla . learn to laff again
asciilifeform: so much to do it at
punkman: I don't see the point in reimplementing trb though. Might as well start from scratch, what help would trb-compatibility be in running node?
asciilifeform would've drowned long ago if couldn't laff
kakobrekla: asciilifeform your life is drama to me, not comedy
asciilifeform: punkman: what help is that then you aint building a shitcoin.
signpost: trb's just shorthand for what's now hilariously called "legacy" address transactions and that's it.
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: pleased to be of service
signpost: I'd for example love something that ate blocks and txn, chattered same, stayed reliably at top of chain, and had a raw txn hole
kakobrekla: asciilifeform id rather see you roaming free, believe or not
asciilifeform: signpost: when asciilifeform says 'trb' is referring to the product consisting largely of pre-bitcoin-being-valuable cpp cruft.
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: why ty.
signpost: sure, but as "somewhere in here there's perhaps a protocol" material.
kakobrekla: maybe the world would get that 'elephant trunk' already
asciilifeform: signpost: 90% of it already illustrated in 'nqb'
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: you may find strange, but possibly asciilifeform is missing some mp gene or sumthing, but tends to think 'if people wanted x, they'd pay for x' etc
punkman: does asciilifeform use trb as wallet?
asciilifeform: punkman: of course -- what else to use as wallet
kakobrekla: asciilifeform if people know what they wanted, 1 button iphone wouldnt be a scandal when it debuted
asciilifeform: punkman: i suspect i do moar manual gearshifting when 'walleting' than most folx tho
asciilifeform: (i.e. charge up 'wallet' w/ privs before firing )
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: many yrs ago, asciilifeform younger and moar naive, put btc addr on his www. 'what if rockefeller wants to donate!' etc
asciilifeform: ('surprise' : nope)
kakobrekla: yes naive.
asciilifeform: so then. anyone who 'oh i wish asciilifeform would finish $proggy' -- it's right there, at top of pg.
asciilifeform: right hand corner.
asciilifeform not professional beggar, so prolly 'doing it wrong'
asciilifeform: but figured, gotta try errything once.
kakobrekla: there is so much wrong with this i dunno where to begin, but can start by your statements of how cant turn btc into food so therfore its useless to you
kakobrekla: which brings me back to my previous point of how you are not using it at all
dulapbot: (trilema) 2014-02-07 asciilifeform: re: hallucinogen: http://img0.joyreactor.cc/pics/post/%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BE%D1%87%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B0-quotes-786200.jpeg (translation: most often, the words 'you ought to try everything in life' refer to dope and porn acting, but much more rarely to quantum physics and chemistry'
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: can't turn $miniscule_bag into $nothavingtoworkagain. rather than 'can't turn any into food' lol.
asciilifeform: it aint hard to turn btc into food at 20-30% efficiency.
kakobrekla: so what int are you looking for, curious
kakobrekla: what do you mean 30% wtf
kakobrekla: maybe you should try prb
kakobrekla: can do with 99% there!
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: i thought was clear, referring to taxschwitz.
kakobrekla: what people in eu are doing, is getting those buttkorn powered debit cards and paying at pos at 0 tax
kakobrekla: idk if it works there
signpost: you're in a jurisdiction without cap gains?
asciilifeform: iirc germany neh
asciilifeform: or hm that was jurov
kakobrekla: im not in germany
asciilifeform: slovenia ?
kakobrekla: not any more
kakobrekla: but if i were, slovenia has 0 tax on crypto
asciilifeform: so this in all of europistan ? sell arbitrary coin , 0 tax ?
asciilifeform: seems difficult to believe
kakobrekla: but this is irrelevant really, what i describe everyone in europe is doing
kakobrekla: and if it doesnt hit bank account, its not on the radar
asciilifeform: aaaa this
asciilifeform: this we have in usa. and even in zimbabwe they have.
asciilifeform: 'not caught, not thief'
kakobrekla: there is no way to report it, even if you wanted it
asciilifeform: mp worked like this -- bags of cash. suitcases. like mavrodi. ( and when he wanted to so much as top off a hosting acct, had to 'get by with a little help from his friends', get someone to use a reichbank . sometimes asciilifeform even. )
asciilifeform: depending on what your interests are in life, can live like this. if you've the skills and 'right time, right place.' ( ftr the only asciilifeform expense payable in physical benjies is tomatoes at the market. )
asciilifeform: the mp essay re usa having effectively 2 currencies, was factual.
asciilifeform: ( and the part where they don't convert 1:1 , even )
asciilifeform when in the past attempted to explain it to old world folx, usually met with disbelief
mats: huh? they still have parity
asciilifeform: mats: nominal parity. y'know, like soviet ruble was nominally 6 to a dollar
asciilifeform: (or argentine peso today etc)
mats: i also recall the mp piece saying its still convertible, but not for long
asciilifeform: mats: damn near anything is convertible to damn near anything else; q is at what cost.
asciilifeform: people who routinely need to convert 100+k of usd to/from benjie to/from electrical -- in practice pay considerable premium.
asciilifeform: (incl. but not limited to officials, who otherwise would 'in rem' confiscate)
mats: i'm not aware of any fees involved in depositing a suitcase of cash at the local bank
asciilifeform: mats: 0 fees until you find yourself in fbi jail. then fees.
mats: i mean if you have the paperwork
asciilifeform: and paperwork -- free ?
asciilifeform: or say you got the 100k green by doing sumthing 'terrorist' , like, say, sold a coupla btc w/out giving usg half.
mats: if you operate a cash business then its a cost of operation, irs audits and all
asciilifeform: aha. so -- fees.
asciilifeform: that there's yer fee.
asciilifeform: i.e. you don't get out 100% of what went in. nowhere close.
asciilifeform: i.e. not 'fully interconvertible'.
mats: there's always a spread, even if its a few bips
mats: nobody works for free
asciilifeform: rright but in this case the spread may easily include yer arse
asciilifeform: (on top of 100% of the money, incl. whatever you buried that they know where)
mats: i thought you were going to refer to the mc/visa duopoly boosting prices, or the nontrivial fees in doing money orders and prepaid credit cards and whatever
asciilifeform: nah that's chicken change in comparison
asciilifeform: (i.e. ~arbitrary swift wire is <50bux )
asciilifeform: the high fees are collected with fbi rifle butts at 0300 hrs in yer bed.
asciilifeform: and with soldering iron up arse at ftmeade.
asciilifeform: of course you can also try to pay'em in installments, as e.g. asciilifeform does. but sometimes still will get 'billed' in your bed.
asciilifeform not speaking emptily, but has been on receiving end of naggum treatment many times.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-25 14:47:05 asciilifeform: via Pernille Nylehn (his ex) : 'I don’t think I’m revealing a big secret when I tell you that Erik ran in to very serious problemes with the Norwegian IRS. Very serious. They claimed he had earned more than he’d reported to them, and he claimed he didn’t. I absolutely think he was innocent, he was very particular about truth.
asciilifeform: ( usa, for folx who haven't been there, is a fascinating hellhole, where even to spend btc is de-facto illegal . naturally not 'evenly enforced' noshit )
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-25 10:42:23 asciilifeform: punkman: in usa, if you have any kind of official presence there, when you buy xyz for coin from a usg.corp, they file a 'form 1099' tax report to declare that you've 'sold' coin and received its usd equiv. as 'income' (whether or not it in fact sold in the usual sense) and you eventually get a bill for up to half (!) of the sum.
asciilifeform will bbl.
mats: i have no idea what you're talking about in this last line
mats: the tax thing
billymg: asciilifeform: same error with -j1, but at least since it was only one thread it made it easier to see the actual line it failed on
billymg: i always love these "what's asciilifeform's magic number" threads
billymg: seems they occur about once per year
billymg: i too would love to know, and would pitch in
shinohai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-31#1055323 << I figured this out so nw billymg - turns out it linked to wrong tinfo library, with newer ncurses had to use `-ltinfow`
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-31 16:07:02 shinohai: billymg: Did you build weechat using ebuild or manually from sources? I just recently tried to build manually with gcc and builds but segfaults.
billymg: shinohai: ah, sorry, i think i missed that logline earlier somehow. i built emerged weechat from portage, no special steps/flags were necessary
billymg: s/built emerged/emerged
billymg: shinohai: but potentially this is the same problem i'm running into with chromium now?
billymg: as in possibly fixable with -ltinfow?
shinohai: May be! Formerly I linked plain 'ol `tinfo` but gdb showed it was indeed "double linked" so that is what caused my segfault.
billymg: shinohai: hmm, toggling that flag doesn't seem to have any effect on chromium's build, it's ignored in the USE list
shinohai: I may have missed your last post on chromium woes, where does it currently fail?
billymg: shinohai: and with -system-icu, a slightly different error: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=z6Re
billymg: it does look like it's just running out of memory, but running with -j1 didn't work either (still runs out of memory)
shinohai: You have plenty 'o swap ?
billymg: 0 swap right now, but 1tb drive, so could add a large swap file
billymg: might try that next actually...
shinohai: In meantime will see if I dig up anything re: icu - when I did a "degoogled chromium" build from source there was some kind of bug with system icu on mine but I forgot what.
billymg: shinohai: building again with 100gb swap and -j9...
thestringpuller: looks like someone snagged bitcoin.foundation
thestringpuller: oh didn't realize it had always been thebitcoin.foundation
signpost: ah nice, the world needed two of these with H@CKERFONTZ
thestringpuller: did the wire protocol ever change?
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: afaik just once
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-03-01 14:38:20 asciilifeform: shinohai: this btw confirmed. i did experiment, if one sends that extra byte, prb noades do in fact send addrs. (and yes some of'em ipv6, have to be thrown out)
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-31#1055569 << where's the mystery? see from horse's mouth, e.g. paypal's www : 'Checking out with crypto is a taxable transaction / Because it’s an asset, it will first be sold whenever you checkout with crypto and the cash will be used to pay the merchant. You have to report any gains or losses on the crypto sale on
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-31 19:01:29 mats: the tax thing
asciilifeform: your taxes. PayPal will provide necessary 1099 forms when you sell cryptocurrency.'
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-31 19:58:55 billymg: shinohai: building again with 100gb swap and -j9...
billymg: asciilifeform: no dice, even with 512gb of swap
asciilifeform: holyfuq!
asciilifeform wonders whether thing expects gcc5+
billymg: trying now with 512gb swap and the -system-icu flag
billymg: asciilifeform: i actually haven't even gotten to that part of this build! still on stock gcc 10 whatever
asciilifeform: then defo not this
shinohai: I never have done ebuild of vanilla chromium, always www-client/ungoogled-chromium
asciilifeform: shinohai: and i presume yours built ?
asciilifeform: shinohai: see if you can dig out notes re how ?
billymg: shinohai: you rolled your own ebuild for that? i didn't see it in the tree
shinohai: Oh yeah it's in the pf4public overlay
shinohai will see if he still has notes anywhere
billymg: how many overlays can one have?
billymg: currently i have one, my local /usr/local/portage one
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-31#1055571 << arguably i'm at fault for their recurrence, i can never find the ~previous~ iteration in time to link to log, lol. ( oblig. 'phf's elephant' reference !! )
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-31 19:20:55 billymg: i always love these "what's asciilifeform's magic number" threads
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-25 22:38:59 asciilifeform: 'the indian elephant can devour, in one day, 100kg of hay, 50kg of carrots, 30kg of cabbage, 40kg of bread, etc' 'really, is it true, that this elephant eats so much?' 'as for eating, he sure would if he could, but who will let him!'
asciilifeform: anyways by popular demand, the ballpark magic# is ~100.
asciilifeform: (why? is for another thread)
billymg: asciilifeform: so if 10 people here each put up 10 you'll be fulltime on asciiwarez??
shinohai: billymg: can add repos from whatever overlay you like using layman afaik
shinohai: (I haven't broken anything terribly bad .... yet)
mats: i misread it as 'trade usd for btc' being a taxable event (its not), but anyway, its not income unless youd bought that coin in the last year
billymg: mats: i think there are two camps, those who believe that the only tax on selling btc is the one printed (e.g. 20% longterm capital gains), and those who believe there is also a hidden tax (e.g. you're now on list of who to go after first when they 6102 it)
asciilifeform: mats: ianal but the national 'long capital gains' tax rate in usa is 20%; and in most states the state tax rate depends strictly on the net qty and not what kind of income. (in e.g. md where asciilifeform , ends up ~10% , plus/minus a few depending on locale)
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-31#1055628 << this in fact also. wasn't even speaking of the extralegal retroactive hypothetical 'we know you have coin' soldering-iron-up-yer-arse tax.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-31 21:01:13 billymg: mats: i think there are two camps, those who believe that the only tax on selling btc is the one printed (e.g. 20% longterm capital gains), and those who believe there is also a hidden tax (e.g. you're now on list of who to go after first when they 6102 it)
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-31#1055624 << well yes, that was the meaning of the figure.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-31 20:49:50 billymg: asciilifeform: so if 10 people here each put up 10 you'll be fulltime on asciiwarez??
asciilifeform not holding breath, lol, for this manna
signpost: nobody else wants an adatronic node? I'd be surprised.
asciilifeform: signpost: hey i'm sure somebody wants. y'know, just like prolly some folx do want a provably-correct fixed-time rsa. simply, people want for phree (or damn near) naturally.
asciilifeform: the eternal curse of opensores.
signpost: so I'm asking. there are a few old-timers here with serious stacks. I'd throw in something. anyone else?
asciilifeform: 'didn't start w/ us, won't end with us'
signpost doesn't want opensource, but wotware
signpost: anyhow you could be right. I failed to get verisimilitude to grunt out that encoder.
asciilifeform: signpost: i'd nod, but e.g. cgra in fact parachuted straight from mars with not 1 but 2 ffa bugs in pocket
asciilifeform: (i.e. wasn't in asciilifeform's wot init.)
signpost: I'm not opposed to open code by any means.
signpost: just agreeing that one shouldn't expect something for nothing.
asciilifeform: if then 'wotware' means 'the developers know one another' then obv. RightThing
asciilifeform: is what vtronics are for.
signpost: yeah, cgra demonstrated value and presumably entered wot at some level
asciilifeform: oh hm was gonna ask deedbot but apparently it's on the box but not in #a ? signpost do i need to turn a knob somewhere to make it go ?
signpost: nah, I do. I can give it a crank this weekend.
asciilifeform: no rush
signpost notes on cal
signpost: nbd, overdue.
asciilifeform: !q uptime
dulapbot: asciilifeform: time since my last reconnect : 77d 0h 5m
asciilifeform: ^ notbad for ersatz.
asciilifeform really gotta get the ball rolling re: at least standing up coupla spares. currently swamped w/ liquishit tho
asciilifeform wonders whether any fleanode relay ever stood for 77+d
asciilifeform currently also plugged into trinque's , and can be reached there if this one catches fire...
signpost: yeah, happy to set up the chain whenever, but was pretty fucking disappointed to learn of lack of cycle detection, chain only
signpost: interested how thimbronion's thing's going
thimbronion: signpost: prototype is available to test, lemme know if you wanna connect to my node.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-31 23:03:36 signpost: so I'm asking. there are a few old-timers here with serious stacks. I'd throw in something. anyone else?
signpost: unsigned tarball? (shakes jowls)
thimbronion: signpost: I can sign if you like.
signpost: sign a vpatch
signpost: but I'm reading this meanwhile
thimbronion will do
signpost: but yeah I'll fire up one of these for sure, where deedbot sits
billymg: this could be interesting, i'd also chip in to free asciilifeform
billymg: also, thimbronion, i have not gotten to this yet but do hope to in the next week
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-08-11 13:21:31 billymg: thimbronion: btw i'm at the point now where i'm ready to start on your alethepedia theme and features for mp-wp
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