trinque: verisimilitude: want a commission?
verisimilitude: I'll probably read this regardless, but what would the payment be, trinque?
verisimilitude: Oh, so I'm to understand this is something which has been wanted by trinque for years, and must be quite an undertaking, then?
trinque: sadly, trinque spend most of his time doing things far less interesting, and perversely, more profitable.
trinque: I expect this isn't more than a few weeks of effort.
trinque: however, it's better to have the person evaluating the job estimate effort, and derive cost from that.
verisimilitude: Still, the precedent the logs set doesn't look good for me, so I should stop discussing what I may do.
trinque: ah, agpl is right out, so we can park it there.
trinque: affero's license is specifically designed to trojan-horse useful items such that they can be the basis of lawsuit later.
verisimilitude: I could be flexible, were I paid to be. Anything I write gratis which isn't insignificant is AGPLv3.
verisimilitude: Explain this opinion more, trinque; I disagree with it.
trinque: oh, you may have understood "commission"
trinque: the idea is that a working item would end up in the public domain, or bsd licensed.
trinque: if you read the paper, you'll see it's meant to be used as a p2p network.
verisimilitude: I prefer public domain over the BSD; I prefer extremes.
trinque: sure, that'd probably the best outcome.
verisimilitude: Still, I don't want to appear stupid in the likely case I never get around to this either, so I'll try to start reading the paper today or tomorrow.
trinque: you have no obligation; I certainly haven't done it yet, and have been talking about it long enough.
trinque: this'd be a step towards removing the foolish dependency on freenode.
trinque: I'd be happy enough to see that to gift the person responsible a certain amount of coin.
trinque: yep, it wont solve the whole problem, but I suspect it will provide a piece.
verisimilitude: So, care to explain why the AGPLv3 is so bad, trinque?
verisimilitude: I find it a fine license, and it effectively prohibits larger corporations from using such software, despite not literally prohibiting it.
trinque: suppose you are hosting a commercial service online which one day pulls in an agpl-licensed item as a transitive dependency via some linux distro's package manager.
trinque: oops, now you might be sued.
trinque: I dislike it because it's designed to be a commercial worm which infects like so ^
trinque: I prefer folks state their intentions plainly, than playing "compliance" games with me.
verisimilitude: I like it for these same reasons, so I suppose we simply disagree.
verisimilitude: I don't feel sorry for someone who doesn't read the licenses.
trinque: I've read, and therefore do not touch such items.
trinque: such agreements are like any other kind of debt; I don't carry debt on principle.
verisimilitude: I also avoid debt, and would disagree about it being debt, but also don't use others' libraries, so it still wouldn't be debt to me, even were that so.
trinque: concretely, it'd be self-limiting to try to force behavior upon those that use a networking lib.
verisimilitude: Well, the point is to prevent it from being used in proprietary software.
trinque: sure, I'm familiar with the politics of RMS et al
trinque: long discussed in the logs.
trinque: but I don't feel strongly about dissuading you of the same.
verisimilitude: I'm rather certain neither of us will change the other's opinion, yes.
verisimilitude: Oh, while it's on my mind, a scenario I find particularly amusing is when a loosely licensed program gets modifications licensed under copyleft, and the bemoaning that tends to occur with this.
snsabot: (trilema) 2015-06-28 asciilifeform: i will note that llvm (since i mentioned it again) is upon the most cursory examination a piece of shit, that wasn't even built to 'be good' - but simply with the one and only purpose of killing gcc.
verisimilitude: I agree that's obviously the primary reason LLVM exists, and only fools disbelieve this.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-02-21 14:56:50 trinque: suppose you are hosting a commercial service online which one day pulls in an agpl-licensed item as a transitive dependency via some linux distro's package manager.
verisimilitude: There was that one Linux kernel developer suing German corporations.
verisimilitude: I don't disagree, but rolling over and dying is no solution either.
verisimilitude: Or, considering yesterday, dying is a solution, but not a nice one.
verisimilitude: It doesn't change that several corporations fear the AGPL.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-02-21 14:56:50 trinque: suppose you are hosting a commercial service online which one day pulls in an agpl-licensed item as a transitive dependency via some linux distro's package manager.
verisimilitude: I'm going to release the code anyway, and may as well try. I, of course and as mentioned, use the public domain when I don't care and it's insignificant.
verisimilitude: The same criticism applies to this ``you have no right to use the software'' string I see on the software of those here.
verisimilitude: I signal a strong preference for copyleft, whereas ye signal a strong dislike of the law.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-02-21 17:26:54 verisimilitude: The same criticism applies to this ``you have no right to use the software'' string I see on the software of those here.
verisimilitude: I already know justice is only served when people like McVeigh act.
verisimilitude: I don't even like the idea of copyright, and it would ideally be vanquished.
trinque: asciilifeform: since the discussion was an item I want, and not a general discussion of software licensing, I don't see what the point is.
trinque: what sums to zero is the old republican "juche" mentality.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-02-21 17:08:15 asciilifeform: afaik no human being (specifically in contrast to a usg.corp) has ever won a license suit. and i dun expect ever will.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-02-21 17:17:06 asciilifeform: back to
this : if the punishment for 'pulling in' a chain of ??? dependencies were that yer chair might explode under yer arse and scatter guts around the ceiling -- i'd be in favour.
trinque: at any rate, the whole point of the thread was that *I* would not accept an item with a contract embedded in it that declared the author fully intends to bring lawsuit.
trinque: the moment I do anything interesting with it on a network.
trinque: as for whether it protects against microshit et al, but of course not.
trinque: actually, better stated, the presence of such a thing tells me something about the *author*, not the item.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-02-21 18:08:47 trinque: actually, better stated, the presence of such a thing tells me something about the *author*, not the item.
trinque: perhaps, and I've spent some of dinner thinking about whether a gpg contract stating the disposition of the item would be better suited, but then I am not certain of the disposition of verisimilitude regarding those, with as quickly as reached for AGPL
trinque: the distinction "affero" makes is that letting people interact with a system that uses the licensed item remotely constitutes distribution of the software, and draws the whole system using that software into the terms of the license.
trinque: in your view I must deal with such people, or I'm a "theist"?
trinque: I see AGPL as a flag that the author is a litigious idiot. there's no harm in avoiding dealing with these.
trinque: there are also fewer people attempting legal arguments that the BSD license is not binding, and precedent that it is.
trinque: you're quite right that it's a game of cost.
trinque: and it would be more expensive to say that BSD doesn't apply to people with left hands, than "AGPL applies to network software" since the latter's contract says that.
trinque: take the "it's just financial competition" argument further. who else would care about BSD lic. being invalidated
verisimilitude: I don't object to a contract, once I've read the paper and could discuss terms better, trinque; I almost had one with adlai, but rejected it.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-02-21 20:06:17 trinque: I see AGPL as a flag that the author is a litigious idiot. there's no harm in avoiding dealing with these.
verisimilitude: In ``the worst-case scenario'', in which I've finished it but don't get paid, I'd simply release it under the AGPLv3.
verisimilitude: In this analogy, I suppose asciilifeform practices a more refined voodoo, atheism+ perhaps.
trinque: curious how folks think bitcoin would work if it were released under AGPL
verisimilitude: Before trinque comments on it, I don't expect to have any contract between us violated, it's just not impossible.
trinque: but anyhow, I don't prefer to be the defender of licensism here.
verisimilitude: An important point wasn't mentioned in this discussion: prole v. prole
verisimilitude: If John Smith violates my copyright, I've a good chance at suing him and winning, don't we agree?
trinque: and prole v prole usually happens in front of a dumber judge.
trinque: asciilifeform: that latter bit means the more rational party is at the mercy of the self-immolator
trinque: I *have* experienced one of those.
trinque: that strategy can be employed just as well by a dipshit with a lawyer buddy who accepts IOUs or bags of blow.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-02-21 20:20:39 trinque: curious how folks think bitcoin would work if it were released under AGPL
trinque: this guy's thing looks like a huge improvement to what luby had.
verisimilitude: I wasn't aware Israel was faking putting certain classes of immigrants on birth control, or DNA-testing for citizenship.
verisimilitude: Well, in the US, they even try, or succeed, in passing laws where it's okay to abort children, unless they're defective, which is awful.
trinque: upstack, I previously looked into this as fountain-codes were also part of an IETF RFC.
trinque: qualcomm will only sue you if you build it into a radio you sell.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-02-20 22:21:56 verisimilitude: The simple fact of things, is that the world would be better if everyone I didn't like were dead.
trinque: let me put it another way. sun tzu would be disappointed in a student that ran up to qualcomm and said "bang".
trinque: there's plenty of sense in pricing risk before buying.
trinque: doesn't mean one doesn't take risks.
trinque: I don't think in binaries.
trinque doesn't even disagree, so isn't necessary to belabor the point.
verisimilitude: I'm a creative person, and won't let my society destroy that. I'm fully aware I could be crushed by a corporation or my government for any reason, but have no choice but to live with that.
trinque very happy to not self-edit, but likes to enumerate known risk, and mitigate where possible.
verisimilitude: It's in one's best interest to claim ``Of course I wouldn't murder the senator's children if given the chance.'', regardless of how true this may be.
trinque: there's also the plain matter of knowing how much leverage one has, and not *seeking* stupid fights.