#asciilifeform | 2021-02-21

trinque: verisimilitude: want a commission?

verisimilitude: What would this commission be for, trinque?

trinque: verisimilitude: I'd like to see an implementation of this in Ada or CL, and haven't the time currently https://pdos.csail.mit.edu/~petar/papers/maymounkov-online.pdf

verisimilitude: I'll probably read this regardless, but what would the payment be, trinque?

asciilifeform: verisimilitude: some context for subj.

verisimilitude: Oh, so I'm to understand this is something which has been wanted by trinque for years, and must be quite an undertaking, then?

trinque: sadly, trinque spend most of his time doing things far less interesting, and perversely, more profitable.

trinque: I expect this isn't more than a few weeks of effort.

trinque: however, it's better to have the person evaluating the job estimate effort, and derive cost from that.

verisimilitude: We'll continue once I read the paper, then.

verisimilitude: Also, were I to do this, I'd license it as AGPLv3.

verisimilitude: Still, the precedent the logs set doesn't look good for me, so I should stop discussing what I may do.

trinque: ah, agpl is right out, so we can park it there.

trinque: affero's license is specifically designed to trojan-horse useful items such that they can be the basis of lawsuit later.

verisimilitude: I could be flexible, were I paid to be. Anything I write gratis which isn't insignificant is AGPLv3.

verisimilitude: Explain this opinion more, trinque; I disagree with it.

trinque: oh, you may have understood "commission"

trinque: that usually means paid.

trinque: the idea is that a working item would end up in the public domain, or bsd licensed.

verisimilitude: Yes.

trinque: if you read the paper, you'll see it's meant to be used as a p2p network.

verisimilitude: I prefer public domain over the BSD; I prefer extremes.

trinque: sure, that'd probably the best outcome.

verisimilitude: Still, I don't want to appear stupid in the likely case I never get around to this either, so I'll try to start reading the paper today or tomorrow.

trinque: you have no obligation; I certainly haven't done it yet, and have been talking about it long enough.

trinque: this'd be a step towards removing the foolish dependency on freenode.

trinque: I'd be happy enough to see that to gift the person responsible a certain amount of coin.

verisimilitude: Oh, so that's what this is for, neat.

trinque: yep, it wont solve the whole problem, but I suspect it will provide a piece.

verisimilitude: So, care to explain why the AGPLv3 is so bad, trinque?

verisimilitude: I find it a fine license, and it effectively prohibits larger corporations from using such software, despite not literally prohibiting it.

trinque: suppose you are hosting a commercial service online which one day pulls in an agpl-licensed item as a transitive dependency via some linux distro's package manager.

trinque: oops, now you might be sued.

trinque: I dislike it because it's designed to be a commercial worm which infects like so ^

trinque: I prefer folks state their intentions plainly, than playing "compliance" games with me.

verisimilitude: I like it for these same reasons, so I suppose we simply disagree.

verisimilitude: I don't feel sorry for someone who doesn't read the licenses.

trinque: I've read, and therefore do not touch such items.

trinque: such agreements are like any other kind of debt; I don't carry debt on principle.

verisimilitude: I also avoid debt, and would disagree about it being debt, but also don't use others' libraries, so it still wouldn't be debt to me, even were that so.

trinque: concretely, it'd be self-limiting to try to force behavior upon those that use a networking lib.

verisimilitude: Well, the point is to prevent it from being used in proprietary software.

trinque: sure, I'm familiar with the politics of RMS et al

trinque: long discussed in the logs.

trinque: I don't share them

trinque: but I don't feel strongly about dissuading you of the same.

verisimilitude: I'm rather certain neither of us will change the other's opinion, yes.

verisimilitude: Oh, while it's on my mind, a scenario I find particularly amusing is when a loosely licensed program gets modifications licensed under copyleft, and the bemoaning that tends to occur with this.

asciilifeform: verisimilitude: in actual practice, software licenses are ceremonial. historically they have not succeeded in tying any of the hands the license authors were hoping to tie (e.g. microshit's, crapple's); in the unlikely event that they 'really need' yer proggy, will a) simply crib it and embed in closed turd b) 'rewrite cleanly' at trifling expense

asciilifeform: ( see e.g. also. )

snsabot: (trilema) 2015-06-28 asciilifeform: i will note that llvm (since i mentioned it again) is upon the most cursory examination a piece of shit, that wasn't even built to 'be good' - but simply with the one and only purpose of killing gcc.

asciilifeform: meanwhile, the amt of wankage around the subj of licenses, if printed an' stacked, could prolly build a ladder to orbit.

asciilifeform: and all of it sums to 0.

verisimilitude: I agree that's obviously the primary reason LLVM exists, and only fools disbelieve this.

asciilifeform: afaik no human being (specifically in contrast to a usg.corp) has ever won a license suit. and i dun expect ever will.

verisimilitude: There have been cases.

asciilifeform: verisimilitude: link?

asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-02-21#1032020 << if this in fact worked as described here, asciilifeform would be quite in favour of agpl etc.

snsabot: Logged on 2021-02-21 14:56:50 trinque: suppose you are hosting a commercial service online which one day pulls in an agpl-licensed item as a transitive dependency via some linux distro's package manager.

verisimilitude: Will this qualify: https://torquemag.io/2013/03/busybox

asciilifeform: verisimilitude: pointedly nope. cuz , again, not human being.

asciilifeform: fsf aint a human.

verisimilitude: There was that one Linux kernel developer suing German corporations.

asciilifeform: indeed if you reassign copyright of yer proggy to fsf, there's ~some~ chance of a 'sued, settled' story a la busybox. (slim.)

asciilifeform: verisimilitude: afaik went nowhere.

asciilifeform: these suits 'go somewhere' when it's in fact in the reich's interest for'em to 'go somewhere.' and not otherwise.

verisimilitude: I don't disagree, but rolling over and dying is no solution either.

asciilifeform: verisimilitude: it aint 'rolling over' to recognize that the pistol is a toy and pulling the trigger and screaming 'bang' kills 0 enemy

verisimilitude: Or, considering yesterday, dying is a solution, but not a nice one.

verisimilitude: It doesn't change that several corporations fear the AGPL.

asciilifeform: important, imho, step in the development of any 21st c. thinking fella, is the realization that the legal system is an enemy, like cancer, it does not work 'for you' and if appears to be doing so, is simply to dupe you into delusion and voluntary compliance where otherwise would not

verisimilitude: I know.

asciilifeform: back to this : if the punishment for 'pulling in' a chain of ??? dependencies were that yer chair might explode under yer arse and scatter guts around the ceiling -- i'd be in favour.

asciilifeform: the shit-soup model of software development is insufficiently, apparently, 'it's own punishment' atm.

verisimilitude: I agree.

asciilifeform: sadly, software licenses, no matter what the wording, dun do this.

asciilifeform: the reality-based view is : 'intellectual property is what you keep to yourself.'

verisimilitude: Oh, that I should've read that nice sentence sooner.

asciilifeform: errything else is delusion (incl. self-delusion); when 'rubber hits road', microshit can use yer softs with impunity.

asciilifeform: if this gives you heartburn -- don't publish where they'll see it.

verisimilitude: Anyway, I'll still use the AGPLv3.

asciilifeform: verisimilitude: for so long as you don't buy into the notion of the magick string ~doing~ sumthing -- won't harm

asciilifeform: i still wonder wtf is the point tho.

asciilifeform bbl.

verisimilitude: I'm going to release the code anyway, and may as well try. I, of course and as mentioned, use the public domain when I don't care and it's insignificant.

verisimilitude: The same criticism applies to this ``you have no right to use the software'' string I see on the software of those here.

verisimilitude: Why bother with that, then?

verisimilitude: It's the same difference.

verisimilitude: I signal a strong preference for copyleft, whereas ye signal a strong dislike of the law.

asciilifeform: verisimilitude: 'the law' in fact worx exclusively against you an' i , and in favour of microshit et al (and the occasional popescu, patent troll, etc.)

asciilifeform: the sooner you grasp this, the sooner can avoid blowing mental cpu cycles on dead end train of though 'how can i humiliate microshit using magick strings in my src files'

asciilifeform: there aint a suitable magick string. cuz it in fact is not how reich law worx.

asciilifeform: ( see also this re a sect in usa which believes that this is how law worx.. )

asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-02-21#1032075 << mp came up with it, an' i and coupla other folx copied. it reflects (if imho verbosely) a reality-based view of software licensism.

snsabot: Logged on 2021-02-21 17:26:54 verisimilitude: The same criticism applies to this ``you have no right to use the software'' string I see on the software of those here.

verisimilitude: Yes, it's just signalling.

verisimilitude: I already know justice is only served when people like McVeigh act.

asciilifeform considering a shorter statement, to replace original, 'you do not have the right to use this material for any purpose. in fact you are breaking the copyright simply by reading this text; if you believe in copyright, you are asked to destroy your pirated copy of this text by killing yourself immediately.'

asciilifeform: ^ in re mp's soft license.

verisimilitude: I don't even like the idea of copyright, and it would ideally be vanquished.

asciilifeform: verisimilitude: 'when hiring an astrologer, hire the cheapest.' ideally propaganda oughta be short an' sweet.

asciilifeform: i'ma update ffa etc. eventually.

asciilifeform: cosmetics simply low priority atm & historically.

asciilifeform: e.g. changing the spaces to tabs, ranks above this.

verisimilitude: I never use tabs.

verisimilitude: Anyway, I think I'll start doing some work right now.

asciilifeform: verisimilitude: happy programming

asciilifeform bbl.

trinque: asciilifeform: since the discussion was an item I want, and not a general discussion of software licensing, I don't see what the point is.

trinque: what sums to zero is the old republican "juche" mentality.

trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-02-21#1032043 << this is pulled squarely from your arse. agpl in particular has been the subject of plenty.

snsabot: Logged on 2021-02-21 17:08:15 asciilifeform: afaik no human being (specifically in contrast to a usg.corp) has ever won a license suit. and i dun expect ever will.

trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-02-21#1032061 << curious how in this same cosmology some are wreckers, while others (patent trolls, etc) are doing god's work.

snsabot: Logged on 2021-02-21 17:17:06 asciilifeform: back to this : if the punishment for 'pulling in' a chain of ??? dependencies were that yer chair might explode under yer arse and scatter guts around the ceiling -- i'd be in favour.

trinque: at any rate, the whole point of the thread was that *I* would not accept an item with a contract embedded in it that declared the author fully intends to bring lawsuit.

trinque: the moment I do anything interesting with it on a network.

trinque: as for whether it protects against microshit et al, but of course not.

trinque: actually, better stated, the presence of such a thing tells me something about the *author*, not the item.

asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-02-21#1032100 << ianal, trinque , but afaik at no point has a ~human~ rightsholder won a software licensing suit. (prolly i oughta concretely specify, 'win' here in the ordinary sense, i.e. win monetary damages and/or compliance -- and not ceremonial 'here's our tarball of busybox' but with compelled verification of 'yes this src builds that-there distributed bin and all tainted

snsabot: Logged on 2021-02-21 17:58:44 trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-02-21#1032043 << this is pulled squarely from your arse. agpl in particular has been the subject of plenty.

asciilifeform: propr. softs')

asciilifeform: if i slept through such a case -- plox to describe it here.

asciilifeform: on top of this, will add that asciilifeform witnessed in the salt mines instances of 1e6, 1e7 $ having been spent on prosecuting such suits, and with no conclusive result. this kind of thing is routine and almost unremarkable.

asciilifeform: it's simply a contest of bank accts.

asciilifeform: the usgcorp wins (often by simple prolongation/attrition) over the small firm; and similarly over the individual (esp. if the latter is a working stiff, rather than litigious blueblood)

asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-02-21#1032102 << not 100% clear what's being asked. plz dun hesitate to elaborate.

snsabot: Logged on 2021-02-21 18:04:19 trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-02-21#1032061 << curious how in this same cosmology some are wreckers, while others (patent trolls, etc) are doing god's work.

asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-02-21#1032107 << i understand the very human compulsion to perform magical chants, voodoo. my argument is simply that of 'license atheist' -- i do not believe that the gods being invoked, exist. (and to the extent they may -- they are evil gods, and best not invoked at all)

snsabot: Logged on 2021-02-21 18:08:47 trinque: actually, better stated, the presence of such a thing tells me something about the *author*, not the item.

trinque: perhaps, and I've spent some of dinner thinking about whether a gpg contract stating the disposition of the item would be better suited, but then I am not certain of the disposition of verisimilitude regarding those, with as quickly as reached for AGPL

asciilifeform: trinque: imho folx oughta, as matter of course, discuss what exactly they're agreeing to , sign it, etc. the ritual incantations of opensoresdom is sumthing entirely, imho, else, tho.

asciilifeform: it's voodoo spellcasting.

asciilifeform: in old shamanic cultures they have this, 'hex against thieves', various forms.

trinque: the distinction "affero" makes is that letting people interact with a system that uses the licensed item remotely constitutes distribution of the software, and draws the whole system using that software into the terms of the license.

asciilifeform: trinque: can you see how in my pov this is 'theist' pov ?

trinque: in your view I must deal with such people, or I'm a "theist"?

asciilifeform: trinque: depends on what effect you think the incantations have.

trinque: I see AGPL as a flag that the author is a litigious idiot. there's no harm in avoiding dealing with these.

trinque: there are also fewer people attempting legal arguments that the BSD license is not binding, and precedent that it is.

trinque: you're quite right that it's a game of cost.

trinque: and it would be more expensive to say that BSD doesn't apply to people with left hands, than "AGPL applies to network software" since the latter's contract says that.

trinque: take the "it's just financial competition" argument further. who else would care about BSD lic. being invalidated

shinohai: This whole conversation sound suspiciously like http://www.wtfpl.net/about/ xD

verisimilitude: I don't object to a contract, once I've read the paper and could discuss terms better, trinque; I almost had one with adlai, but rejected it.

asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-02-21#1032127 << i see the use of any traditional license as sign that author is a vooddist. which imho is not mortal sin, but still a sin.

snsabot: Logged on 2021-02-21 20:06:17 trinque: I see AGPL as a flag that the author is a litigious idiot. there's no harm in avoiding dealing with these.

trinque can't disagree.

verisimilitude: In ``the worst-case scenario'', in which I've finished it but don't get paid, I'd simply release it under the AGPLv3.

verisimilitude: In this analogy, I suppose asciilifeform practices a more refined voodoo, atheism+ perhaps.

verisimilitude: In the end, it's just signalling.

trinque: curious how folks think bitcoin would work if it were released under AGPL

verisimilitude: Before trinque comments on it, I don't expect to have any contract between us violated, it's just not impossible.

trinque: but anyhow, I don't prefer to be the defender of licensism here.

verisimilitude: An important point wasn't mentioned in this discussion: prole v. prole

verisimilitude: If John Smith violates my copyright, I've a good chance at suing him and winning, don't we agree?

asciilifeform: verisimilitude: imho the right way to do any 'atheism' is where the removal of the dead 'gods' cleans out space inside yer head for more interesting subj. rather than as replacement-religion.

verisimilitude: Yes.

trinque: and prole v prole usually happens in front of a dumber judge.

asciilifeform: verisimilitude: in prole vs prole, good chance of suit being throw out; and if not, then typically 'the lawyers win'

trinque: asciilifeform: that latter bit means the more rational party is at the mercy of the self-immolator

trinque: I *have* experienced one of those.

asciilifeform: normally the party willing & able to blow more dough -- wins.

asciilifeform: usgcorp often draws out suit into decades, even when would be massively +ev to settle -- simply to 'teach lesson to others'

trinque: that strategy can be employed just as well by a dipshit with a lawyer buddy who accepts IOUs or bags of blow.

asciilifeform: aha

asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-02-21#1032140 << before this gets lost -- imho, approx same as it worked in fact. and for that matter, yer linux box prolly has gif, mp3 decoder, even tho both in supposedly patent/copyrasty inferno

snsabot: Logged on 2021-02-21 20:20:39 trinque: curious how folks think bitcoin would work if it were released under AGPL

asciilifeform: for that matter, trinque , ~all variants of luby algo are similarly usg.prohibited.

asciilifeform: i aint about to give damn.

asciilifeform: ( anyone recall pike's original software patent ? the one on 'unix pipe' )

verisimilitude: The paper covers patented algorithms?

trinque: this guy's thing looks like a huge improvement to what luby had.

asciilifeform: verisimilitude: ianal, but per popular legend e.g. 'tornado code', 'turbo code', under patent

asciilifeform: trinque: aaha. specifically these, and variants.

asciilifeform not advocating giving a damn; quite opposite.

verisimilitude: Patented algorithms are bullshit.

asciilifeform: verisimilitude: lemme spell this out ftr :

asciilifeform: 1) reich is your enemy in all situations. 2) no exceptions to (1). if you take a dispute to a reich court, the winner is always the reich. 3) all courts on planet3 atm are reich courts.

verisimilitude: What of North Korea?

asciilifeform: 4) follow the 11th commandment and keep it holy : 'not caught -- not thief'

asciilifeform: verisimilitude: afaik scale model of nato reich.

asciilifeform: (at one time , when had intact autarkik industrial economy under kim 1 -- was sovereign)

verisimilitude: Fact four is obvious.

asciilifeform: not that i wouldn't enjoy to see a test gpl suit heard in pyongyang !

asciilifeform: they're an ethnostate, tho, verisimilitude , it aint happening.

verisimilitude: It would be nice to live in an ethnostate.

asciilifeform: yea well unless you already do, it aint happening

verisimilitude: That would make a bad government much more bearable.

verisimilitude: Without a carrot, the stick is just for beatings.

asciilifeform: ask adlai re adlaistan. dun seem to work so well there (then again many argue that is faux ethnostate)

verisimilitude: I wasn't aware Israel was faking putting certain classes of immigrants on birth control, or DNA-testing for citizenship.

asciilifeform: verisimilitude: having a class of hated untermenschen dun make for ethnostate.

asciilifeform: north kr is better example. afaik no white man there can so much as cross a street w/out 4 gestapo handlers following behind.

verisimilitude: Well, in the US, they even try, or succeed, in passing laws where it's okay to abort children, unless they're defective, which is awful.

asciilifeform: jp is a milder version of ethnostate, but still working example.

asciilifeform: you will get tenure at harvard 5 times before you get citizenship in jp.

verisimilitude: Oh, they didn't come to mind, but yes.

trinque: upstack, I previously looked into this as fountain-codes were also part of an IETF RFC.

asciilifeform: and e.g. is perfectly legal in jp to refuse entry to white devil. w/out giving any pretext whatsoever.

asciilifeform: in restaurants etc

trinque: qualcomm will only sue you if you build it into a radio you sell.

asciilifeform: trinque: indeed was. iirc linked in #t at one time

asciilifeform: trinque: 'promises not to sue' aint binding.

trinque: https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/2554/

trinque: sure, I know.

verisimilitude: Of course, we come back to this.

snsabot: Logged on 2021-02-20 22:21:56 verisimilitude: The simple fact of things, is that the world would be better if everyone I didn't like were dead.

asciilifeform recalls this one

trinque: let me put it another way. sun tzu would be disappointed in a student that ran up to qualcomm and said "bang".

asciilifeform: trinque: my point is that a serious believer in obedience to patentism/copyrasty ought not to program at all. because it is factually impossible to do so without violating usg.patents.

trinque: there's plenty of sense in pricing risk before buying.

trinque: doesn't mean one doesn't take risks.

asciilifeform: trinque: you can dig up an active patent covering literally anything you might ever care to do in a proggy. i shit thee not.

asciilifeform: incl. quicksort. etc

trinque believes

verisimilitude: I've written before about this topic.

asciilifeform: there's a popular but very mistaken belief that one can 'stay on right side of law' even in a reich and ought to do xyz, not do ~xyz, etc, and then 'will be safe'

trinque: I don't think in binaries.

asciilifeform: in point of fact if yer corpse is needed to fill nkvd quota -- will help to fill it. and has 0 to do w/ 'guilt'.

asciilifeform: qualcomm will win patent suit against you or i no matter what we put or do not put in program.

asciilifeform: ergo not worth even iota of effort to try to decide 'shoudl i put this..'

asciilifeform: see e.g. 'decss'.

asciilifeform: imagine if author had worried 'but am i violator??'

trinque doesn't even disagree, so isn't necessary to belabor the point.

verisimilitude: I'm a creative person, and won't let my society destroy that. I'm fully aware I could be crushed by a corporation or my government for any reason, but have no choice but to live with that.

asciilifeform: aite

asciilifeform: i'ma bbl then.

trinque: cya!

trinque very happy to not self-edit, but likes to enumerate known risk, and mitigate where possible.

verisimilitude: It's in one's best interest to claim ``Of course I wouldn't murder the senator's children if given the chance.'', regardless of how true this may be.

trinque: there's also the plain matter of knowing how much leverage one has, and not *seeking* stupid fights.

trinque: see above re: sun tzu