Hide Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2021-07-03 | 2021-07-05 → ↓
asciilifeform: thimbronion: notbad summary, ty for writing.
asciilifeform: thimbronion: thinking about it, the shared-keys thing + fixed-size deduplication message cache is prolly the simplest scheme that has a chance of working.
thimbronion: asciilifeform: Ah. And that would be with UDP for peers, and IRC emulation for clients?
asciilifeform: thimbronion: aha, as described in prev. thrd
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-04 12:19:50 asciilifeform: thimbronion: thinking about it, the shared-keys thing + fixed-size deduplication message cache is prolly the simplest scheme that has a chance of working.
asciilifeform: gregory4: without. simply shared key for each link in graph.
asciilifeform: welcome to dulapnet, punkman !
punkman: hey asciilifeform
punkman: happy 'murica day mother uckers
gregory4: asciilifeform: glad to hear. another question: are we going to encrypt the messages, sign them, or both?
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-05-18 16:15:41 asciilifeform: the main obstacle currently is that non-leaking rsa is slow on pc.
asciilifeform: so what remains is symmetrics, e.g. serpent, with shared key.
asciilifeform: (shared via pgpgram, out of band)
gregory4: so we are encrypting.
gregory4: right, by shared you mean symmetric. my bad.
gregory4: do you have any particular algorithm in mind? I can start looking into it.
asciilifeform: gregory4: already linked above. and long ago implemented.
asciilifeform: gregory4: the major gnarly bit in all of this, imho, is the irc emulation end.
punkman: so I have to manually exchange symmetric key with 50 different people?
asciilifeform: if that's how many you intend to directly peer with -- then yes
gregory4: sorry I missed that message.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-04 14:23:37 asciilifeform: so what remains is symmetrics, e.g. serpent, with shared key.
asciilifeform: punkman: if you have a better algo (see last 3d of log re: the open problem) i'm all ears.
shinohai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-04#1042468 <<< yeah it was udp, so understandable if you didn't get it.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-04 14:26:59 gregory4: sorry I missed that message.
shinohai: And nice blog post thimbronion
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-04#1042466 << observe that irc peering already suffered from this.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-04 14:26:34 punkman: so I have to manually exchange symmetric key with 50 different people?
asciilifeform has the algo 'in head', will try to write it up as human text in coming days.
punkman: is this a gossipd?
asciilifeform: punkman: not all that similar to mp's scheme, which to be fair he proposed before anyone knew what constant-time rsa costs
punkman: yeah in the abstract sense
punkman: I don't think mp' scheme ever made sense
asciilifeform: punkman: i tried to turn it into an algo that could make sense ( what's left of mp inc. recently put back comments, so you can read, thimbronion linked in his summary)
asciilifeform: btw 'gossip routing' is a 1990s term of art, did not originate w/ mp or asciilifeform
asciilifeform: in the most common form, peers randomly converse and sync a db of some kind ('do you have x?' 'no' 'here's x' etc)
asciilifeform: the 'inventory' in trb is an example of this.
asciilifeform: what i'm proposing is much simpler, known as 'flood routing', where an incoming message, after determined to be authentic -- and novel (i.e. not equal to any of N previous received messages) is sent to all peers save for the one who brought it to begin with.
asciilifeform: i.e. there is no 'asking'. you get sent packets, and then decide whether to emit to client and/or to rebroadcast (and to whom).
asciilifeform: incidentally, this is how it was once thought networks would have to work, before invention of 'spanning tree' (an algo i explicitly reject in p2pism -- it is inherently incatronic)
asciilifeform: e.g. ethernet -- uses spanning-tree to guarantee acyclicity.
asciilifeform: (phunphakt, asciilifeform used similar algo in the context of vtron, for ringing alarm if cyclic patch sequence is found)
punkman: any thoughts on message ordering?
asciilifeform: punkman: what about it ?
asciilifeform: punkman: observe that irc already makes no guarantees of message ordering. somehow no one (almost) ever gives a damn.
punkman: guarantees are hard, but it does try to keep things in order
asciilifeform: in practice, everyone will see 100 copies of your message before the switch in your kbd stops bouncing, typically.
asciilifeform: (in flood routing, every message takes in fact every possible path to each participant)
asciilifeform: ^ this necessarily includes the shortest path. important, imho, point.
asciilifeform: now, almost all received messages will be duplicates. but cpu has been cheap enuff for this not to be a problem for 30yrs nao
asciilifeform: ... even if you want to keep and dedupe against last mil+ of messages.
asciilifeform suspects that even does not require 'fancy' data structure; would work ok with simple ring buffer of msg hashes.
asciilifeform: msg, importantly, gotta include a timestamp ~generated by originator~.
asciilifeform: (simply as pill against this nonsense)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-01 18:08:25 asciilifeform: i.e. 1 nick can't utter e.g. 'yes' or '$vwap' etc within <N min ?
asciilifeform: anyways imho the above is just about enuff to work with.
asciilifeform must bbl, but encourages folx to ask q's and generally discuss w/out waiting for him
verisimilitude: A symmetric scheme, with the secrets not generally being valuable, would work for me. Once I generate a truly trustworthy PGP key, I'm damn certain not letting it touch the Internet.
thimbronion: shinohai: ty
punkman: I think msg ordering is the gnarly problem in this. Suppose your peer gets a message with a timestamp of 1 hour (or 1 minute) in the past. Does it emit this to your IRC client as new msg? Suppose my peer has better connection to bot than alf, and I always get bot replies before whatever alf said that triggered the bot.
punkman: IRC does a lot to maintain order
gregory4: punkman: the timestamp is not for ordering, simply for indicating that two messages with same content are distinct.
asciilifeform: punkman: timestamp, in my proposed algo, is issued by the message's originator. and gregory4 is correct, it is strictly for '2 people being able to say 'yes' within 1 deduplication interval'
asciilifeform: this imho is a key point, and i rec to think about it until fully sinks in. i.e. it is factually impossible to make for faster propagation than offered by flood fill.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-04 14:57:38 asciilifeform: ^ this necessarily includes the shortest path. important, imho, point.
asciilifeform: re: 'hour in the past' -- i'd rather use per-peer incremented counters, rather than political time (which introduces ye olde sync question)
asciilifeform: (why? not only for 'two can say yes', but to prevent a third party from replaying last year's packets to flood the net)
punkman: asciilifeform: are you saying the flood routing solves the problem of getting bot answer before bot command?
asciilifeform: for cutoff, i'd use simple algo: any message which passes the dupe litmus (i.e. not found in the circular buffer) but with a counter value 'older' than the oldest (optionally -- for-peer) message in the buffer, is rejected.
asciilifeform: punkman: what i'm saying is that it solves it in all cases where anything else could have solved it.
asciilifeform: (and naturally -- does not, where nothing could)
asciilifeform: consider the typical case where your pathgraph to the bot is shorter than to the peer who issued the command. the bot will relay the command to peers, which includes you, before issuing its answer.
asciilifeform: which then follows same paths-including-shortest.
asciilifeform: hence you will receive the command and bot reply in the correct order, w/out anyone doing any elaborate reordering.
asciilifeform: it is possible to construct a scenario where this is not the case on account of packets arriving out-of-order. but there is no clean universal pill against this.
asciilifeform: imho it would be quite misguided to perform any kind of 'smart' reorderings, considering that the endpoints remain traditional irc clients which are 'append-only', you cannot direct an incoming message to be displayed somewhere other than at the 'bottom'.
asciilifeform has zero interest in attempting to 'reinvent bicycle' of desktop irc clients, or using anyone else's attempt at same
asciilifeform: tldr: messages will almost always arrive in apparently-correct order. but when they do not -- live with it. it imho is a very small price to pay for massive reduction in movingparts count.
asciilifeform: hypothetically, if anyone gave a damn about exact orderings, msg would include hash of the latest predecessor known to the sender. but again, imho no such thing is needed.
punkman: messages will almost always arrive in apparently-correct order << if this holds, yes it's a small price. but I've encountered ordering problems in the wild, and it gets annoying pretty fast
asciilifeform: punkman: i imagine it'll get a little annoying when each peer is on different planet. but i do not expect to find us in this or similar situation any time soon.
punkman: hash of the latest predecessor << still hits wall against "irc clients which are 'append-only'"
asciilifeform: exactly, it'd be completely pointless
asciilifeform: i have no intention of attempting to make so much as a scratch in that wall. logs are append-only as fucking beelzebub intended'em to be.
asciilifeform: if it bothers the reader that two messages seem to be out of order, let him go to various folxs' public logs until finds an ordering to his liking.
asciilifeform: (and let him become better connected with the relevant people until he sees messages in-order. etc)
punkman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-04#1042524 << the universal pill is: master does the ordering for all peers. which is of course not p2p. As an example, paxos,raft and other such "consensoos" algos, then add "if master dies, elect new master" on top of that.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-04 16:10:52 asciilifeform: it is possible to construct a scenario where this is not the case on account of packets arriving out-of-order. but there is no clean universal pill against this.
asciilifeform: punkman: lolyes; we're talking into that right nao tho, 0 reason to make another one
asciilifeform: spanning-tree protocol is arguably a variant of same -- the precise location of the points of failure shifts, but at all times there remain such points
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-04 14:47:32 asciilifeform: e.g. ethernet -- uses spanning-tree to guarantee acyclicity.
verisimilitude: This channel is hardly active enough for this to even be an issue.
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-04#1042515 I completely agree. It shouldn't even be thought of as time.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-04 16:02:13 asciilifeform: re: 'hour in the past' -- i'd rather use per-peer incremented counters, rather than political time (which introduces ye olde sync question)
punkman: "In this paper we formally prove that constrained flooding along the logical arcs of a
punkman: deterministic overlay network preserve causal ordering at no additional cost."
punkman: not sure what exactly is meant by deterministic here
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-04#1042541 << ~protocol~ oughta be able to withstand a ddos; and/or various folx sending fat warez over it; and the like.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-04 18:53:58 verisimilitude: This channel is hardly active enough for this to even be an issue.
asciilifeform: every piece of rubbish pseudoinfrastructure on the net started out as 'this is enuff for me an' my bottle mates'. don't be a that.
asciilifeform: (or rather, whoever wants, can go an' be a that, but count asciilifeform out, he has 0 interest in participating)
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-04#1042542 << aha, but needs to behave rather like a timestamp, in that messages which attempt to advance it 'by centuries' must be rejected, or you quickly run outta counter and the ability to guarantee unique #
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-04 18:55:01 verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-04#1042515 I completely agree. It shouldn't even be thought of as time.
asciilifeform: i.e. counter gotta increase monotonically.
asciilifeform: ''This protocol, nicknamed Overlay, is simply constrained flooding across the logical arcs of the overlay topology. In other words, the idea is to broadcast each message along the overlay edges. Node i that wishes to send message m to all nodes in the system, sends the message only to its overlay neighbors. The first time node j receives message m, j sends m to all its overlay neighbors
asciilifeform: excluding the node from which it received m. Afterwards, j delivers m to the application.'
asciilifeform: punkman: lulzy that this ended up as 'a paper', it's simply restatement of flood-fill algo, circa 1950s.
punkman: so each peer has logical clock. when it wants to send message, it increments own clock, then makes a list of own clock and last observed clocks of N other peers. then send msg + list-of-clocks. When you receive msg, you check if your last observed clock of those N peers equals list-of-clocks. If not, you wait until you get the missing messages,
punkman: before pushing msg to your irc client.
punkman: (The Timestamp protocol in the paper)
punkman: well, sort of
asciilifeform: punkman: that there has the obvious problem of potentially infinite wait
punkman: could have timeout
punkman: then you just push message
asciilifeform: could, at which point it reverts to flood-fill.
asciilifeform: (a pointlessly slowed-down flood fill..)
asciilifeform: i can't speak for erryone, but i don't give one half of a shit if two people who hit 'return' within 1ms get displayed on my terminal in order a,b or b,a
asciilifeform: i can't picture any situation in which it matters, and moreover, if you find yourself in such a situation, imho you had necessarily done something foolish.
asciilifeform: what ilkka kokkarinen called 'martian problem'. (iirc from pokerism, term of art.)
punkman: flood fill in the peer network? peer only delays sending to irc client, can push immediately to other peers
asciilifeform: punkman: i still don't understand why to bother with this. (see above)
asciilifeform: the req'd moving parts aint free.
asciilifeform: note that asciilifeform isn't opposed to punkman (or anybody else) configuring ~his~ own client to attempt to reorder, somehow, messages perceived as outta order. but i utterly fail to see why this mechanism ~must~ be an integral part of the protocol.
asciilifeform: from asciilifeform's pov, reordering is approx as useful as tits on a hog.
punkman: I don't want total order. I guess each peer sending only its own logical clock, will work ok. But again peer must delay sending alf's msg #5 before alf's msg #4 to irc client.
asciilifeform: punkman: i'm deeply skeptical that 2 messages i send w/ min. (say 100ms) delay b/w them (e.g. if client broke up a paste) will ever arrive out of order anywhere, even if no special precautions are taken.
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-04#1042550 I agree. The issue is this is still so vague I feel like a disconnected observer more than anything else. I'll be more help once some foundations are settled.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-04 19:32:46 asciilifeform: every piece of rubbish pseudoinfrastructure on the net started out as 'this is enuff for me an' my bottle mates'. don't be a that.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: is ok, do not feel somehow obligated to grasp the thread. (but if you do -- welcome to comment)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-04 19:40:17 punkman: so each peer has logical clock. when it wants to send message, it increments own clock, then makes a list of own clock and last observed clocks of N other peers. then send msg + list-of-clocks. When you receive msg, you check if your last observed clock of those N peers equals list-of-clocks. If not, you wait until you get the missing messages,
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: as described there, indeed aint
verisimilitude: I understand the discussion, but my personal ideas are so detached from the few goals stated for this so far.
verisimilitude: At the same time, this proposal is clearly a bandage until the better system actually stops the bleeding.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: the only hard spec i set out for this so far (and others nodded to) was 'no thrones' + 'no blank cheques to allcomers'
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-18 18:35:02 asciilifeform: the troo p2p topology i propose removes all kindsa fundamentally palace-flavoured concepts -- 'joining', 'kicking', 'banning' -- and replaces simply w/ freedom of association, i.e. peering & unpeering.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-18 19:06:40 asciilifeform: Aerthean: even vps theoretically works. remember, there is no expectation of confidentiality or authenticity beyond what is strictly required against ddos/spam.
asciilifeform: as for 'bandage' -- if linespeed constant-time rsa were available, whole thing would be trivial.
asciilifeform: (but that aint happening, i suspect, in my lifetime.)
verisimilitude: As an example of a concern entirely ignored so far, how are messages to be formatted. Will it be whatever UTF-8 garbage gets thrown around, which makes duplicated messages trivial?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i can't see any reason to artificially constrain the payload.
asciilifeform: (if you do -- welcome to do so on ~your~ own terminal)
asciilifeform: i don't give a shit if 2 messages ~visually~ duplicates. if you catch your peers sending these, the thing to do is to ask'em to stop, and if they do not, unpeer'em.
verisimilitude: The introduction of Unicode makes it easy to write different messages which appear to be the same.
asciilifeform: this is a problem b/w you and peers.
asciilifeform: not of the protocol.
verisimilitude: A better protocol restricts what each client can do.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: misbehaving party can write his own client to misbehave how he likes.
verisimilitude: This is a matter of personal opinion, however.
asciilifeform: the answer to these is to not peer w/em.
verisimilitude: I have my dreams, asciilifeform, and one of these is a protocol which can grow to rejecting increasingly more messages with such qualities as improper grammar. This errors from our topic, however.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: imho the practical 'direction to dream in' there would be to select for yerself peers w/ correct grammar etc. but naturally q is b/w you and odin.
asciilifeform: imho is foolish to leave q of 'who is untermensch' to machines.
verisimilitude: I really prefer anonymous systems, where this can't be done.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: unless you really meant 'pseudonymous' -- anonymous systems divide between 'spammed to death' and 'no one knows about it yet'
asciilifeform: (atm we're talking into one of the second kind, for instance)
verisimilitude: So I've had to give a good deal of thought to automated systems which make it hard to spam.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: see the pow thrd. state of art re subj.
asciilifeform: there's basically 2 known solutions ('no one knows about it yet' aint a solution) -- wot/shared keys and pow.
verisimilitude: Proof of work is so unfortunate that it works.
asciilifeform: i suppose there's also a 'maxwell's demon', the devil comes and sorts your packets for you. but this is for adepts, i do not know how to summon devils to sort packets for me.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i have nfi how to parse that sentence
verisimilitude: Proof of work is so unfortunate, because it works.
asciilifeform: to paraphrase the ancients, 'a kind word and sharp stick works better than only a kind word'
asciilifeform: if kind word sufficed to make folx behave, would not need pow.
asciilifeform: ( and see also e.g. )
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-05-15 22:24:16 asciilifeform: lru: lemme ask you, do you think the resources that went into making, e.g. hydrogen bomb, were wasted ?
verisimilitude: In the most base sense, yes, but really no.
verisimilitude: I like the idea of an anonymous system with a shared key, but only one fool is needed to break it.
verisimilitude: An approval system is subject to sybil attacks.
asciilifeform: as summarized above, there are exactly 2 known pills against sybils.
verisimilitude: One solution is using the union of ``anonymous moderators'' decisions, but this is also flawed.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: the only 1 of the 2 which worx without persistent identities, is pow.
asciilifeform not particularly interested in construction of anon-toilets
verisimilitude: Perhaps we're simply unimaginative.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: or perhaps there's a 2 and a 3 somewhere that add to 6, lol
verisimilitude: They're good for beginners, at the least.
verisimilitude: Oh, RSA was once a fairy tale as well, don't give me that.
punkman: wut
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: if you have a breaththrough algo that aint a variant of '1' or '2', i promise to read.
punkman: verisimilitude: did you use a different nickname in the before times?
verisimilitude: I promise to think about it until I'm dead.
verisimilitude: I use a different name, on another network.
asciilifeform: as for 'beginnners', the primary objective of an intelligent novice must always be, above all: to stop being a novice.
verisimilitude: I mean there's no barrier to asking a question for fear of mockery.
verisimilitude: Then again, why would those here want that?
asciilifeform: phobias are to be overcome by the sufferer, rather than catered to by entire planet.
verisimilitude: I still prefer the anonymous morass, for some things.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: 2/4/8chan is that-way, lol
verisimilitude: I help run a different imageboard.
asciilifeform at one time sat on the ru equiv. of n-chan. had enuff for 1 lifetime, not interested in any revisit.
verisimilitude: Well, by now, I outclass all or most using it, but I still like it.
verisimilitude: I wouldn't be here if I truly thought myself superior to everyone here, however.
asciilifeform must bbl
verisimilitude: Oh spare me; now I'm hearing the normal people talk about the bitcoin millionaire who drowned (mp), and how the USG was totally responsible because he had dirt on $political_group_I_dislike. A man can't just drown anymore without the all-powerful USG causing it.
shinohai: verisimilitude: Already had countless messages from people asking same, one from none other than http://wot.deedbot.org/CDC13F3B380239FE82250DA310488A0477C34BCE.html
thestringpuller: verisimilitude: "bitcoin millionaire" lol
vex: the cat was the big stack
vex: I remember when kakobrekla got shittu about spening bitbet funds after mp fucked up a tx
vex: One might find it hard to belive that mp forgot which inputs to use, or that kako would get his yoga pants in a twist, but human nature does it's thing
asciilifeform: shinohai: lol, i guess trumpet blew, the corpses arose from their graves
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-29 11:32:46 asciilifeform: in other lulz, mp on front pg of 'rt'
vex: he got on the fishwraps even here
asciilifeform: disappointingly, none of the 'usg drowned him!' folx seem to take interest in extended variant of the legend where 1st they shot him with an idiocy ray..
shinohai: asciilifeform: she never wrote back when I said hanbot surely had access to coins and could be rogering herself with gold dildo while looking at the balance for all I know or care.
asciilifeform is pleased to report that absolutely no one asked him about 'mp's buried treasure' or any such nonsense
shinohai: I troll sewers so I guess the rats know where to find me.
vex: rattus shinohai
vex: a not invaluable species
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-04#1042651 << ah no, lulzier, recall that bbet was 1 of those 'great inventions' of mp, 'zero-asset corp.'. so it was kako's ~personal~ coin that was conscripted to cover the 'oops'.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-04 22:14:13 vex: I remember when kakobrekla got shittu about spening bitbet funds after mp fucked up a tx
vex: i didn't know that
asciilifeform: it's all in the log, if you give a damn
vex: wasn't a huge amt from memory
vex: there's clones on various eth chains now. thank goodness your bid didn't win
dulapbot: (trilema) 2016-03-01 mircea_popescu: the damage in this case is ~17 BTC, which whatever - cdb.
vex: yeah fuck. I'd be shitty too
asciilifeform: vex: there's all sortsa crapola nao, none of it is in any way similar to 'bbet when it was the 1 game in town' for obv reason
vex: I get it
punkman: another problem was that if bbet took the damage, wouldn't pay dividend for year+
vex: I still find it hard to fathom that mp didn't know how to hurry up the tx properly
asciilifeform: punkman: afaik bbet per se held no coin aside from what was req'd to pay out bets
punkman: and the undeniable lulz "chinese miners did it"
asciilifeform: punkman: start of 'day x' thread for thread-completeness.
dulapbot: (trilema) 2016-03-01 mircea_popescu: sooo... it pains me to say that bitbet was just on the receiving end of a concerted miner withholding attack.
vex: bbet paid divs?
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-02-20 20:34:07 asciilifeform: ( empirically -- in my experiments re 'bbetization' -- no less than 2wks! )
asciilifeform: as recently as iirc '18 witnessed w/ own eyes.
asciilifeform: (very easy to witness, simply fire a tx from a default trb install where fee==0)
asciilifeform: of course if you aint a moron, and fire the conflicting tx to ~self~, will defuse the bomb
asciilifeform: but ~who~ and why plants this bomb, afaik remains unknown to this day.
vex: is anyone mining 0 fees today?
vex: snsa got dissolved too huh alf?
vex: you had access to a fuckload of capital
vex: stayed sensible
asciilifeform: vex: i had access to fuck-all.
vex: Yes, you's need to spin some shit. you did well
asciilifeform: vex: the 'capital' was ~100% a game mp played w/ self
vex: not dead is a good start
asciilifeform: eh errybody dies.
vex: not yet friend
vex: lemme ask again then. I think I asked long ago. what to do with the capital?
asciilifeform: what who is to do with what??
vex: ok, you've got 5 mil usd free & clear. what do next?
asciilifeform: find a good place to drown, lol
asciilifeform: no rly i have nfi what. i don't think there is a universal answer to this q.
vex: o no u didn
shinohai: Oh hai vex, I wasn't seeing ur messages until I figured out asciilifeform was talking to someone xD
shinohai: so squashed a client bug, thx!
vex: yeah I was checking if dulap had that facility shino
vex: no bots yet?
shinohai: Well somehow I had weechat set to ignore nicks with < 3 chars en 'em prolly from fleanode days
asciilifeform: vex: no fewer than 2 bots
shinohai: $vwap
busybot: The 24-Hour VWAP for BTC is $ 34612.85 USD
asciilifeform not yet moved watchglass over
vex: help
asciilifeform: !q uptime
dulapbot: asciilifeform: time since my last reconnect : 19d 0h 13m
asciilifeform: oh heh already 19d of dulapnet.
vex: that long?
vex: time marches
shinohai: $uptime
busybot: The bot has been up for: 5 days 5 hours 12 minutes and 14 seconds
shinohai: not bad here either!
shinohai: asciilifeform: yers connects as localhost bot?
asciilifeform: of course it does
asciilifeform: imho is how all bots oughta work -- connect to author's own relay on localhost.
asciilifeform: this way never fall down.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-18 15:17:23 asciilifeform: (imho erry relay operator oughta plug in a bot, into localhost)
shinohai: ^ thought I recalled seeing that, haven't yet been back through the irc convo, didn't really think worth time to set up relay until workable system came to town.
asciilifeform: shinohai: i still think it'd be useful to set up relays, even if they have to be regularly rearranged by hand
asciilifeform: it still beats the living shit out of having ONE BOX, lol
vex: im with shino. even reading thimbros blog. I'm still in the drak via alfs roadmap
asciilifeform: vex: unlike e.g. mp, asciilifeform aint a solipsist, and actually believes in the existence of ~other people~ and that they might have ~ideas~
asciilifeform: so, solicited input re: open problems.
vex: open indeed
shinohai: liar, you shot down my idea to use RFC 2549
vex: I'd like the new method to be useful with cheap chinese ham radios
asciilifeform: vex: funnily enuff, in my latest sketch, more or less directly usable w/ shortwave etc
asciilifeform: (i.e. medium-agnostic)
vex: reading between the lines, I wondered if this was on your radar
asciilifeform: iirc said plenty on the subj of shortwave quite directly, in the old days.
vex: i've read those passages.
shinohai: Even moar recently some interesting radio stuff in logs from that superkuh guy
vex: who dat?
asciilifeform: shinohai: very decent electronics www
shinohai: Yeah it's an a== site
shinohai: *a++
vex: shiohai is underpriced
vex: cunt's got all the twitters
shinohai has actually considered finally implementing a comment system on blog such as he has ....
vex: shinohai, can you see my ddc here on dulap?
shinohai: ^ these all "unavailable in area" vex
shinohai: and nope, no ddc
vex: do you see my direct messages?
shinohai thinks vex may be one of last ppl alive that *still knows how to use ddc*
vex greg beard
vex: *grey even
shinohai: s/ddc/dcc
vex: u wot?
vex: how to wot. the shit changed
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