asciilifeform: !w poll
watchglass: Polling 17 nodes...
watchglass: 220.127.116.11:8333 : Could not connect!
watchglass: 18.104.22.168:8333 : Could not connect!
watchglass: 22.214.171.124:8333 : Alive: (0.082s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=683874
watchglass: 126.96.36.199:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.082s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=684092
watchglass: 188.8.131.52:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.083s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=684092
watchglass: 184.108.40.206:8333 : (pool-108-31-170-100.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.105s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=684092 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 220.127.116.11:8333 : (ns562940.ip-54-39-156.net) Alive: (0.130s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=684092
watchglass: 18.104.22.168:8333 : Alive: (0.155s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=684092
watchglass: 22.214.171.124:8333 : Alive: (0.206s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=684092
watchglass: 126.96.36.199:8333 : Alive: (0.216s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=684092 (Operator: whaack)
watchglass: 188.8.131.52:8333 : Alive: (0.278s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=684092
watchglass: 184.108.40.206:8333 : (ns3140226.ip-54-38-94.eu) Alive: (0.245s) V=88888 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.8.88.88/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=684092
watchglass: 220.127.116.11:8333 : (static.18.104.22.168.clients.your-server.de) Alive: (0.345s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=412049 (Operator: jurov)
watchglass: 22.214.171.124:8333 : Violated BTC Protocol: Bad header length! (Operator: trinque)
asciilifeform: $ticker btc usd
btcinfobot: Current BTC price in USD: $43275.86
asciilifeform: interestingly, wg autoreconnected today, but did not autojoin the chan. (my bots join but do not verify the success.) if anyone knows how to verify result of a join on fleanode, plox to write in.
asciilifeform: this is the 3rd, iirc, such incident to date, since asciilifeform wrote the orig. variant (aug. '19)
thimbronion: WRT freenode's gradual death, what was the objection to running an irc server (or servers) on own boxen with strict firewall settings only allowing whitelisted ips? No drop ins?
asciilifeform: thimbronion: ip whitelist is not only a pain for folx on radio modems & the like, but a joke from security pov
asciilifeform: thimbronion: on top of this, irc as we have it forces either plaintext pw, or sslism, both of which suck
thimbronion: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-18#1036515 << asciilifeform: re: ips, due to some kind of spoofing or what?
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-18 11:40:42 asciilifeform: thimbronion: ip whitelist is not only a pain for folx on radio modems & the like, but a joke from security pov
asciilifeform: thimbronion: aha, trivially
asciilifeform: thimbronion: on the subj of 'gradual death of fleanode' -- for some yrs now it has been owned by nsa. most likely simply for the ease of hijacking simplistic orcish botnets which use irctronic command mechanism. erry once in a while they switch out the front company which 'owns' it.
asciilifeform: overall thing has sucked more or less same since '14. and will prolly live on, while sucking, for decades (like aol 'lives' today, believe or not)
asciilifeform: this is not to propose 'happily live in fleanode 4evah', naturally.
thimbronion: So not a top priority to get off then.
asciilifeform: thimbronion: to a hypothetical genuinely-p2p net -- would happily move. to an ad-hoc micro-fleanode clone that goes down regularly -- not so much
billymg: asciilifeform: i've got your logger running now. i'm working on some custom styling for it. your html is killing me lol
asciilifeform: billymg: lol what's wrong with it?
billymg: i hope you don't mind me rewriting some of it and submitting a patch. i'm also adding a 'css_file' knob to the config for easy theme switching
asciilifeform: billymg: rewrite as you like, i'ma even mirror (and perhaps use) your variant, if improved
billymg: your current live theme will be preserved as 'classic.css' -- i promise to have it be a pixel-perfect recreation
asciilifeform: billymg: outta curiosity, what, roughly, didja change ?
billymg: things like that
asciilifeform: billymg: the most egregious sharp edge i've not had time to sand off, is the channel menu, it could be generated with 1 sql query rather than N, in principle
asciilifeform: iirc ~90% of the load time is spent there
asciilifeform: ( 'gen_chanlist' concretely )
billymg: asciilifeform: cool, i'll take a look at that as well then. for now i just need to do some basics on the html/css side to make it palatable to designers and other frontend monkeys (such as myself)
asciilifeform: likewise the dead/legacy chans really oughta be displayed in a row below the living. but this is secondary.
asciilifeform: billymg: see if you can think of a way to make the full chan list, of hypothetically arbitrary length, not spill off screen
asciilifeform: (~without~ scroll bars or anything equivalent, that is)
billymg: asciilifeform: each chan item isn't particularly wide, normally in cases where you have menus with N not-very-wide items they go to the left or right side in a vertical orientation
asciilifeform: i use vertical displays, billymg . and ~hate~ horiz. space eaters.
asciilifeform: (and yes on asciilifeform's www, still using such a layout. but strictly from lack of satisfactory replacement.)
billymg: i can't imagine any layout where your www's sidebar is arranged horizontally (without the use of some kind of JS dropdown menus or a ton of scrolling -- or wrapping, where must scroll 3 pages down before actual content starts)
asciilifeform: ugh no ty
billymg: yeah, exactly
billymg: there's a reason it's arranged in a sidebar, because given the physical constraints it's the best layout
billymg: and in your www even without changing the sidebar you could still gain a significant amount of horizontal real estate simply by letting the layout expand to 100% of the viewport width
billymg: but imo that's not necessary either
billymg: when i read a book the pages aren't 3ft wide, and in newspapers the text is arranged into columns
asciilifeform: billymg: i left it as it currently is so as to display correctly on heathen 'wide' displays
billymg: asciilifeform: can use combination of width: 100%; max-width: 1024px; (for example)
asciilifeform: interesting, will try at some pt
asciilifeform wonders what browser incompatibilities this'll reveal
asciilifeform: not 1 cssism knob i've touched to date, worx 100% portably
billymg: asciilifeform: sadly this is true
asciilifeform: billymg: this is why historically asciilifeform did his best to avoid the whole subject. it doesn't pay off.
asciilifeform: it is just about impossible to 'have what to show' for the effort.
asciilifeform: and i'm profoundly uninterested in 'oops, chrome released new version, must rewrite' lifestyle.
asciilifeform: btw i stole the original stylesheet from phf.
asciilifeform: (with very minor changes)
billymg: asciilifeform: when i originally started as an intern one still had to support IE6, after that the new stuff is a walk in the park for me, hardly even have to think about it while doing it
verisimilitude: Even my very simple CSS has required some changes to accomodate edge cases.
verisimilitude: It disgusted me.
verisimilitude: The companies are giving up on it, and going to ``canvas rendering''.
verisimilitude: Perhaps asciilifeform should consider producing PDFs or having a Gopher hole as well.
billymg: asciilifeform: speaking of inconsistencies, do you see your search bar as centered or left aligned on your currently live logger?
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-18 13:57:02 asciilifeform: not 1 cssism knob i've touched to date, worx 100% portably
billymg: i've always seen it centered, but just opened in a different browser and noticed it's left aligned
asciilifeform: billymg: centered
billymg: asciilifeform: do you mind if i ask which browser/version?
billymg wonders if anyone else is using a browser that renders it on the left side
billymg: for me it's firefox 78 that's rendering it to the left
asciilifeform: billymg: all i have here is various versions of chrome & chromium
billymg: asciilifeform: ah, got it. and that's what i was using before so never noticed it not centered
asciilifeform: ... and of course 'lynx', which renders correctly (centered)
billymg: asciilifeform: will test there as well
asciilifeform: billymg: ty
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-18#1036567 << imho pdf Must Die, it is a simply evil format designed to cripple. that it remains the only printer-edible vector graphics format is a crime of negligence on the part of the browser people, rather than an achievement of pdf perps.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-18 15:05:57 verisimilitude: Perhaps asciilifeform should consider producing PDFs or having a Gopher hole as well.
asciilifeform: as for gopher, i dun use it, wai would i host it ? via what mechanism would e.g. comments work, in a hypothetical neo-gopherism ?
asciilifeform: (will refrain from asking, e.g. 'and which 3 people will read it')
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-18#1036566 << this is being done simply to try to cripple ad filters.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-18 15:04:13 verisimilitude: The companies are giving up on it, and going to ``canvas rendering''.
asciilifeform: ( exactly same thing which motivates google et al's push to 'ssl errywhere' incidentally )
verisimilitude: Some find the idea that encryption being pushed for such couldn't be true; they talk of thwarting corporate and governmental spying, ignoring the certificate authorities entirely.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: y'know, it dun cost usg much, this nonsense. most of the shills work for phree.
asciilifeform: folx who bought the usg.authored dichotomy, where 'what do you mean, not ssl? then plaintext errywhere?' automatically serve in this army.
asciilifeform: as do any and all supporters of 'pki' as a concept, under whatever pretext.
verisimilitude: I'm careful with how I write; I called them ``Some'' and not ``People''.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: it isn't even simply about the cert authorities, but rather a multi-layered shit sandwich, with multi-kilogram 'standards' documents, mandatory null ciphers, ~impossible to implement w/out subtle bugs, regular 'upgrades', and many more
verisimilitude: I don't much care about hiding communications, compared to ensuring authenticity.
verisimilitude: TLS is useless for both.
verisimilitude: My connection to Freenode isn't encrypted, because it's too insignificant to care.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: just about any even half-serious business requires 'hiding'. ( if you can't pgp addrs/de-pgp pw's -- cannot use my isp, for instance.)
verisimilitude: How would the idealized Freenode replacement work; would everyone write to a shared key, or write N signed copies?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: no shared keys.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: subj has a rather long history. various folx, incl. asciilifeform , proposed various schemes, but so far each of them imho 'worse than nothing', on acct of various fatal flaws.
asciilifeform holds that illusory security is considerably worse than none at all.
asciilifeform also not very interested in schemes which are narrowly specific to chat, or www replacement. instead interested in general-purpose replacement for tcp, riding on top of existing net but with rsa pubkeys as deliverable addresses, zero knobs that unauthenticated ddosers can expensively push (incl. using captured authentic payloads) and complete opacity of traffic to any third party.
verisimilitude: I agree regarding illusory security.
snsabot: (trilema) 2019-09-06 asciilifeform: ( btw , for thread-completeness -- you need 4096 modexp in < 3.8 ~microsecond~ to eat GB at line-rate. )
verisimilitude: So, once this major work be finished, chat comes easily.
verisimilitude: That would certainly remove the drudgery I was imagining.
verisimilitude: I wouldn't be comfortable with an RSA key being directly attached to the Internet; surely it would be feasible to have a configuration with only the public key used to accept or reject blocks for later.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: verification only req's the signer's pub , in asymmetric crypto
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: only transmission requires (your) privkey
verisimilitude: Alright then.
verisimilitude: I can envision a setup where a GNU/Linux passes blocks to a much older machine holding the private key, over a basic serial line, say.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: for e.g. pgpism, this is already what most folx do. for realtime applications, not practical
verisimilitude: How is it impractical?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: carrying e.g. each chat line by hand to the bunker where the machine w/ launch codes lives ?!
asciilifeform: this worx for pgpgrams, where one might receive a handful/day
asciilifeform: serial port is universal favourite, but 'cargo cultistically' imho -- if yer system is porous, it can be owned via serialport just as well as via ethernet; and aside from this, suppose i want to transmit at line rate ? now instead of 1G/s it's 115.2kB/s?
asciilifeform: much of what constitutes 'best practice' -- and not only in 'official' seekoorityism, but in supposedly-'dissident' lit -- is half- usg.fud, half- cargocultism.
verisimilitude: Well, the idea is to have a very simple line protocol, and then just ensure at least the private side is correct.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: right, but point being that this does not magically take place by using slow modem.
asciilifeform: (and, conversely, is not magically undone, if correctly done, by using a fast one)
verisimilitude: It merely requires a simple line and not, say, USB.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-05-10 22:35:06 asciilifeform: could spend fucking ~year implementing e.g. even usb1. i did...
asciilifeform: (but again, not 'because fast'.)
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-18 15:49:37 asciilifeform: folx who bought the usg.authored dichotomy, where 'what do you mean, not ssl? then plaintext errywhere?' automatically serve in this army.
asciilifeform: there's no fundamental reason that ye olde rs232 could not run at multi-Gb/s over optics. the use of gnarly idiocies instead is purely for political reasons.
verisimilitude: Is such RS232 available?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: where, at corner shop? lol
asciilifeform: it's available when you're designing a machine and os to go with it.
asciilifeform: rs232 tutorial for the innocent. you can do it over anything you like, including flags on a flag pole, or steam whistles, or whatever.
asciilifeform: y'know, like morse.
asciilifeform: it's simply a line protocol.
asciilifeform: ( fwiw the only 1 known to asciilifeform that existed as a soviet 'GOST' standard almost as soon as promulgated in the 'civilized' world.. )
asciilifeform: ^ buildable via discrete components. lamps, if you like..
verisimilitude: This is fun to imagine, but seems a long ways off.
verisimilitude: Still, it's fun to have grand ambitions.
verisimilitude: I want to replace what passes for text, and asciilifeform wants this grand IP replacement.
verisimilitude: What are the ambitions of the others here?
thimbronion: verisimilitude: I want to create an honest online encyclopedia (in English) and build a replacement for google search.
verisimilitude: I presume we see Wikipedia as a cess pit, thimbronion.
thimbronion: verisimilitude: it's disgusting.
verisimilitude: I've had a similar fascination with the idea; I figured having a very narrow scope would allow me to write a tiny encyclopedia on those topics I'm an expert on.
verisimilitude: Do keep me updated on the progress of this idea; I may offer help.
thimbronion: verisimilitude: certianly!
verisimilitude: Now, what is the opinion on Yacy?
thimbronion: verisimilitude: I hadn't heard of it
thimbronion: verisimilitude: I think where my concept would differ is where it says "all users are equal"
verisimilitude: I believe I may have learned of it from my logs, but it's a decentralized WWW search.
verisimilitude: Not every Yacy user runs a searching node, I figure.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-18#1036658 << got several entertaining outputs, incl. this..
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: outta curiosity, how didja come across wiby ?
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-18#1036645 << it's considerably ~simpler~ than the tcp+sslism shitstack
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-18 17:23:32 verisimilitude: I want to replace what passes for text, and asciilifeform wants this grand IP replacement.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-18#1036647 << in both cases, i suspect the key is to think about what aspects of the thing being re-created are actually desirable.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-18 18:14:01 thimbronion: verisimilitude: I want to create an honest online encyclopedia (in English) and build a replacement for google search.
snsabot: (trilema) 2013-12-22 asciilifeform: 'what people want is a function of what they learn is available. e.g., do Americans want three-ring binders, and Europeans four-ring binders? or do they want binders and take whatever number of holes they come with? or do they want something that can help them organize their papers and take whatever is available? or do they really want a less cluttered office and ease of storage and retrieval of the infor
asciilifeform: e.g. does anyone actually ~want~ a 'search engine like google' (even the google circa 1999) ?
asciilifeform: (or, possibly -- would be happier with a wot-curated list of sites by actual people..)
asciilifeform: re 'wiby' -- asciilifeform hit the 'surprise' button coupla dozen times, and somewhat astonished at how many of the outputs are things he already had bookmarked for yrs!
asciilifeform: that theere's the ~real~ www!!
verisimilitude: I learned of it on an anonymous forum the creator used.
verisimilitude: Elision is also simpler than Unicode and other such things.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: unless i catastrophically misunderstand, suffers some of very similar problems as asian unicode -- the requirement of standardizing dictionaries
verisimilitude: As for what's actually desirable, I agree, and a major issue is that people value tangential characteristics a decent solution won't have, in many cases.
verisimilitude: A standardized dictionary is desirable, but not a strict requirement.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: this is an ancient pestilence in what passes for computing -- skeumorphism for instance.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: how not required? i thought entire scheme was 'encode words rather than glyphs'
verisimilitude: A document could be paired with its dictionary, asciilifeform.
asciilifeform: i'ma emphatically disagree that the freedom to emit a word not found in any dictionary is 'useless'.
asciilifeform: if 'paired with its dictionary' -- reduces to what we have now + extra bulk.
verisimilitude: I already cover that.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: for my edification, cite where covered ?
verisimilitude: The paragraphs of note are the fifth and thirteenth.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: an important attribute of compression schemes (which is what this is, nuffin wrong with that, regardless of under what sauce served) is that it gotta ~win in avg. case~
asciilifeform: 'Latin, in particular, could be stored in the dictionary as bases and infinitives, to be declined and conjugated based on an additional code paired with each word. The consequences of this are obvious. Irregular words would need to be noted as such and could be held in the dictionary less efficiently.' << lemme pick on this
asciilifeform: ^ strongly suggests that verisimilitude is not a serious aficionado of eurolangs
asciilifeform: where sometimes highly irregular and thorougly wordstem-mutilating declensions.
verisimilitude: Those could be handled like English, where words are just thrown in, instead of something more elegant.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: realize, this is the direct equivalent of the case where you .gzip sumthing an' it gets ~heavier~ (statistically inevitable for a good % of inputs)
verisimilitude: In any case, I insist computers should bend to accomodate human language, not vice-versa.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: it is tempting to agree with this, but natural languages in fact ~suck~ for expressing unambiguous statements.
verisimilitude: Ideally, the cost of the dictionary isn't counted, because it's seperate.
asciilifeform: at the end of the day, all costs count.
asciilifeform: (unless 'separate' means that it lives on mars and martians pay for it..?)
verisimilitude: Well, I may have an early English Elision available to play with soon.
asciilifeform will read.
verisimilitude: I'm not deterred; I've realized something ugly, and want to stomp it out.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: what, in your pov here, is the ugly?
verisimilitude: I loathe these common character sets.
verisimilitude: Unicode is already a damned approach; it takes intelligent idiots to create homoglyph attacks.
verisimilitude: Imagine, asciilifeform, text necessarily identifying the language it's in.
asciilifeform: the ones where 'à', 'á', 'â', 'ã', buncha similar garbage are considered separate glyphs, and their significance cannot be inferred from the constituent bits ?
asciilifeform: i'ma readily agree that it's ugly.
asciilifeform: 'it's important to note that UTF-8 was created by Ken Thompson and Rob Pike; unsurprisingly, this pair specifically designed it to have unnecessary qualities specifically for soothing the C language's delicate sensibilities. A placemat is an appropriate venue for such an encoding to have been designed. Both the ASCII NULL and ASCII / characters don't spontaneously appear in UTF-8 for other
verisimilitude: Representing text as words rather than characters is the base I want to build on.
asciilifeform: reasons, purely because this would burden C and POSIX, which are accustomed to being catered to and accomodating nothing.' << entirely troo
asciilifeform: 'it's as if Ken Thompson thought ``I haven't done enough damage.''.' << bahaha
asciilifeform will come back to this.
thimbronion: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-18#1036668 << asciilifeform: this is closer to what I'm working towards
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-18 19:12:13 asciilifeform: (or, possibly -- would be happier with a wot-curated list of sites by actual people..)
asciilifeform would ideally prefer it -- and ALL other wot operations -- as an integrated system. but would take what can get.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-18 16:14:09 asciilifeform: also not very interested in schemes which are narrowly specific to chat, or www replacement. instead interested in general-purpose replacement for tcp, riding on top of existing net but with rsa pubkeys as deliverable addresses, zero knobs that unauthenticated ddosers can expensively push (incl. using captured authentic payloads) and complete opacity of traffic to any third party.
trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-18#1036672 << weird that they intend to rebuild all republican artifacts as they were.
trinque: as they were didn't work.
trinque: (leaving aside the "use this guy's wot with whom we don't speak", lol)
asciilifeform: trinque: recall, those are the folx trying to get rich by selling e.g. trb, FG, even asciilifeform's junkbin data diode . wainot also trinque's piece...
snsabot: Logged on 2020-05-02 13:26:15 asciilifeform: in other noose, i was a little surprised to learn that jfw's optoisolator product is literally the same kit as my lab bench one. i wouldn't have done that; that thing is pretty fragile.
asciilifeform: iirc the only new bits they had were the rubbish linux and tinyscheme tx encoder (which demanded 2way access to a running trb..)
asciilifeform: + of course vehehery fancy powerpoints w/ mp's face etc
asciilifeform: the business model imho betrayed a kind of childlike naivete -- where to teach elderly anglosaxon 'high net worth' parasites to run a trb noad...
trinque: yep, best of luck with that.
trinque: truly HNW pay other humans to hold, give zero shits how.
asciilifeform: until encounter 'ceausescu's chopper pilot' problem. which is as it oughta be imho.
trinque: at any rate, "wot" that is not a global, distributed protocol is not interesting to me. they can have it.
asciilifeform: can't speak for other folx, but i find the psychology fascinating. clearly 'larping' an imagined 'upper crust' 'america as it was great-again'. 'like troo ceo, not like dirty lab niggers.' complete with golf.
mats: that particular M1 chart has been making the rounds for some time, and its misunderstood every time its reshared https://fredblog.stlouisfed.org/2021/01/whats-behind-the-recent-surge-in-the-m1-money-supply
mats: i thought one of those guys started in finance