BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all --currency rmb
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: BTCChina BTCRMB last: 5977.89, vol: 4959248.93950000 | Volume-weighted last average: 5977.89
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/12/coinbase-login-woes-rumored-as-price-reported-by-fiatbitcoin-interfaces-moves/ << Qntra - Coinbase Login Woes Rumored As Price Reported By fiat/Bitcoin Interfaces Moves
mircea_popescu: !!gettrust phf
deedbot: L1: 4, L2: 16 by 10 connections.
mircea_popescu: !!rated phf
deedbot: mircea_popescu rated phf 4 at 2016/05/17 03:19:21 << his lordship the lord chancellor
mircea_popescu: !!up Guest36448
deedbot: Guest36448 voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587847 << fish out the links, should be informative.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:15 mod6: i just feel like we've been here before. like i have some pavalonian response from this.
mircea_popescu: mod6 i don't get what http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587851 is saying ? it links to a congratulatory message back in 2015 ?
mircea_popescu: i was saying "this is working correctly", did it end up reading the opposite ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587857 << he has it exactly, it passed as a "minor problem, whatevs."
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:22 ben_vulpes: just because mircea_popescu didn't complain about the failure at the time doesn't make it right.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587892 << fwiw first girl (there quoted) put my sig in the dir ; but for subsequent passes the item was rewritten to skip unwotted sigs rather than die.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:39 mod6: now, we not want that behviour any longer.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587887 << he's thinking of your "wild" pressings. "unprincipled" being a much better word.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:35 asciilifeform: trinque: are you thinking of mod6's minor bug , or of some other
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587908 << heh! i think a lot of "well everyone knows this" is going on wrt v ; owing to its deliberately-variant, homebrew nature.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:44 asciilifeform: i ended up turning that into a warning, vs fatal, but it looks like i never posted this variant.
mircea_popescu: more or less loud recalibrations as practice crystallizes to be expected in such circumstance.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587923 << i am fwiw satisfied that it's qutie mroe than this : vs aren't on btcbase because they don't fundamentally belong on btcbase, because unlike public trb "we all use this" they're private "my girl will dance the way ~i~ want her to dance and stfu". there's a much more limited set of rules re what vtrons should do ; than re what trbs should do.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:47 phf: ben_vulpes: this subthread since your response to my original statement is one example of what i'm talking about. in this case none of the v implementations are on btcbase, because nobody wants to sign own hacks, because the cost of failure is too high.
mircea_popescu: i perceive no benefit to, eg, getting everyone to use mod6's or alf's or anyone else's v implementation, as opposed to the present situation ; just as i perceive no advantage to getting everyone to make "his own" trb.
mircea_popescu: this opposition may be less categorical than it seems here, and may evolve in time, but i suspect even if a continuous function it'll never be convex.
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/12/us-steel-refocuses-in-anticipation-of-great-again/ << Qntra - US Steel Refocuses In Anticipation Of Great Again
BingoBoingo: ^ Chuckle fodder
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:58 asciilifeform: there is a 'harem-v' and a 'forum-v'
mircea_popescu: i suppose it's possible that as technology matures it goes from this stage to "yawn, whatever, just use the cannonical version". so there's possibly that path there.
mircea_popescu: and on the other hand, i suppose it's entirely possible that if a years-made-wiser satoshi tried to release bitcoin, it'd have been done in the manner of how we did vtrons not in the manner of how he did bitcoin, ie, "here's what should happen - anyone who wants to participate make one"
mircea_popescu: so there's no real strong categorical difference from theory. but in practice it sure as fuck exists.
mircea_popescu: bitcoin'd certainly be infinitely stronger were it the result of a concurrent development effort in this style.
asciilifeform: fwiw i deliberately did not polish my vtron, wajted to give folx a turn in the sun
mircea_popescu: (not that this consideration has much practical value - outside of #trilema the community to do such thing doesn't exist, and so wasn't at the time an option)
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo there's absolutely no way in hell anything in the us can compete with mittal.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Of course it can't compete, but it can Pretend!
mircea_popescu: Preeet End!
mircea_popescu: it's funny, you know, after ~2500 years, steel went back home to pradesh
BingoBoingo: Seriously. Anyways the Granite City and Gary Mill are as described, opened enough to get machines warm.
BingoBoingo: Anything beyond waits for Trumpreich's credit card
BingoBoingo: But yes, steel seems to want to be made in India
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587944 << this symbol Г is G (or perhaps V) in russian ; but also used for rendering r on one of those early displays. so "Error" looked to teh russian like for some reason it says eggog.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:52 ben_vulpes: r sounds like g to them or something
mircea_popescu: which is irresistibly funny somehow so it survived.
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: dunno if you heard but praxair and linde are merging
BingoBoingo: Oh, ty
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587945 << ah there it is. so alf, of course my head read "kleptronica" for some reason.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:52 asciilifeform: trinque: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/Elektronika_MK_52_with_ERROR.jpg/400px-Elektronika_MK_52_with_ERROR.jpg << them
ben_vulpes: also nfi how this fits into your agricultural fanfic
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes dun worry about it, he'll find a way.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: yeah i figured, it's why he has it now
mircea_popescu: transgenic BingoBoingoian agrofanfiction ftw.
ben_vulpes: biz-commentary-cum-agricultural-fanfiction is my favorite new genre of 2016
BingoBoingo: locally Praxair is known for exploding (literally) in the 1990s
BingoBoingo: Anyways its not fanfic if its true
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587935 << upon review of mine, it simply sucked horrendously and i suspect that i knew at some level at the time.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:49 phf: well, last time i brought it up with mod6 he said something along the lines of "i'm not ready to sign, because it's still work in progress"
BingoBoingo: Seriously, no one wants fucking bentgrass outside of a putting green
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-20#1586531 << i don't recall the proposed tests, actually. i mulled on this for a bit, am reluctant to try any sort of implementation until i finish the sqlator which a) is probably just sunk cost fallacy rearing its head, as i've done not much there but design the schema and prep a massive ingest job and b) has now been bumped down my todo list *again* in favor of vtronic
a111: Logged on 2016-12-20 13:18 mircea_popescu: btw mod6 ben_vulpes trinque re the whole db/fs etc discussion, anyone recall the symlinks method / proposed tests ?
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:54 ben_vulpes: we digress
BingoBoingo: Eggog dirges are the sound of the season.
ben_vulpes: chiptune christmas, if you want to give any olds a migrane
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes the bright idea was http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-13#1481832 and the test needed is to check wtf happens if you symlink the txn to the block tree
a111: Logged on 2016-06-13 23:48 mircea_popescu: and there's symlinks if anyone wants to alias.
mircea_popescu: you'd end up with (as proposed there) a directory tree like 20 layers deep, with thousands of symlinks in each.
mircea_popescu: this way you don't actually have to ~index~ anything, if you wish to see where txn 1234567890 was included in a block, you go to /12/34/56/7890 which points to block x
ben_vulpes: sure yeah, i remember the design pretty well
mircea_popescu: ok so a) gotta see if ext2 / ext4 CAN EVEN HOLD this many symlinks. like, at all.
mircea_popescu: and b) wtf happens once you load a drive with this nuttery.
mircea_popescu: afaik this is entirely unwalked ground, for all the foss bs about million eyes.
ben_vulpes: million flies, maybe. infinite symlinks, guaranteed not.
mircea_popescu: why not ?
ben_vulpes: knowing nothing about fsen, i doubt even reiser can handle infinite symlinks.
mircea_popescu: why ?
ben_vulpes: because every open source anything i've ever touched has failed in precisely these sorts of extreme use cases
ben_vulpes: a rough heuristic, granted
mircea_popescu: more importantly, why is this not ~exactly~ like saying "doh, of course you can't fill a drive with text files". dude what.
ben_vulpes: fill, sure. but an /infinite number/ thereof?
mircea_popescu: well infinite here means "to fill the disk".
mircea_popescu: obv you can't store infinite data in finite hard drive, i came to terms with that
mircea_popescu: (after some early experimentation, i confess)
ben_vulpes: lol yes, most boys
mircea_popescu: aaaanyway. mimi's in a fine position to try this out, attach old drive, write script to spit them out as per schema, see what occurs.
mircea_popescu: profile seek times, whatevs reasonable testage once the artefact's prepared.
ben_vulpes: surely a symlink wouldn't eat more than a few bytes now would it
ben_vulpes: few hundred?
mircea_popescu: in theory the above should be uberefficient sqling of a blockchain
ben_vulpes: that is a very liberal use of the acronym
mircea_popescu: in practice i'm in two waters about it, wouldn't be surprised if the whole thing catches fire.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes why ?
mircea_popescu: union is implemented via cat and ls!!!1
ben_vulpes: there *is* an ansi standard for sql
mircea_popescu: which part am i breaking ?
ben_vulpes: dude cat and ls are not relational algebra
ben_vulpes: quit fuckin with my head
mircea_popescu: says who
ben_vulpes: they're barely-compiling c tools in unix land
mircea_popescu holds awk in reserve just in case.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i'm going to need that gas mask
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes oh im sorry, and your sql is written in what, malbolge ? my my aren't we speshul.
ben_vulpes: it's a very special haskellian snowflake that makes it so i don't have to think about that so nyah
mircea_popescu: barely-compiling c isn't good enough for us. oh, no, mommy i need my special asm skirt for THIS sql stuff!
ben_vulpes: someone else entertain the man
BingoBoingo: Don't forget the dirty Pascal panties!
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587972 << it's altogether unclear where did you get this "celebrated is its ability to support a scientific dialog" ; got a link or something ? seems more the case what was celebrated was its ability to put a wrench through imperial-style "scientific dialog" where "we dindu nuttin wrong".
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:59 phf: well, since collective reaction is "tis but a scratch" i have nothing else to say, and will happily await mircea_popescu's unrate
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/12/praxair-buying-linde-renaming-self-linde-in-industrial-gas-consolidation/ << Qntra - Praxair Buying Linde, Renaming Self Linde In Industrial Gas Consolidation
BingoBoingo: ^ For herr vulpes
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587985 << lol holy shit sherlock. http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-16#1583928 with bells and whistles. how about it simply fails to start if .wot is empty.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 02:04 ben_vulpes: and sure, if .wot is the empty set, return true ;)
a111: Logged on 2016-12-16 12:09 mircea_popescu: but i can see why this is practically obnoxious.
ben_vulpes: 'twas a joke
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 02:12 trinque: does it matter or not who signed?
ben_vulpes: it gets resolved
mircea_popescu: a ok
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 02:28 mod6: it sounds like everyone wants instead, a general overhaul to get to the 'wot variant press' instead, which would also fix the bug, because these vpatches, without a corresponding seal, would simply be ignored.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 02:32 mod6: you will, you must, have everything signed for it to show up in a pressable flow.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 02:34 mod6: the printable flow, is the same as the pressable flow.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1588093 << why the fuck. if they're lacking sigs they're not even patches.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 02:38 ben_vulpes: but if it doesn't show me which patches are lacking sigs, that strikes me as a bug.
mircea_popescu: should it also show you the contents of your catpics folder, in case maybe you wanted to do some clicking ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1588097 << dun sweat it mod6 ! tomorrow is another friday!
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 02:41 mod6: *sigh*
ben_vulpes: i expect it to be a royal pain to run down "which patch is missing sigs and breaking the flow from genesis to whatever"
ben_vulpes: without a flow that renders all patches. but fine
mircea_popescu: but how do you get there in the first place.
mircea_popescu: "i ended up with a woman in my bed i don't know." "how ?"
ben_vulpes: that'd be why it's fine
ben_vulpes: no pressing drunk
mircea_popescu: moreover if you say press kimkardassian and it says "failed - parishilton not found" then it is somewhat likely you forgot to sign blondy.
ben_vulpes: a few minutes of thinking while working on something related did clear this up for ben_vulpes
jurov: mircea_popescu: ext4 has 256Binodes, and "The target of a symbolic link will be stored in inode if the target string is less than 60 bytes long."
jurov: not sure how to shovel tx/block id into 60 bytes
jurov: also, there is limit of 2^32 inodes, even in 64-bit mode
jurov: and to give my 2c also on sql, while it's possible to use some portable standardized ansi sql subset, essential stuff like prepared queries need a database driver
jurov: to introduce it into trb would, in my understanding, would make folks apoplectic
ben_vulpes: dun worry, no such is on the table
ben_vulpes: jurov: sql just falls out of "i shall make tmsr a block explorer", no more, no less.
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo, pete_dushenski: in re graphite, "meaningfully stand behind their Q" perhaps?
ben_vulpes: mod6, asciilifeform, trinque, phf, mircea_popescu, and anyone else tracking vtronic gnashing: i dusted off and rewrote my cl V implementation. i'll follow up sometime tomorrow with more demo usage, and a more robust demonstration of wot-variant pressing. http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/juTpM/?raw=true
ben_vulpes: from 340 lines down to 224.
ben_vulpes: and yes, phf, when i am not exhausted i will also produce a genesis.
shinohai: neato ben_vulpes (on the lisp V)
shinohai reads the giant logz
davout: ben_vulpes: what's the sqlator?
shinohai: !~later tell BingoBoingo http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/Uoyyb/?raw=true
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded.
trinque: ben_vulpes: wooo! I'll test that soon as I have coffee in hand.
shinohai passes trinque some coffee [~]D
mircea_popescu: "¿Sabes algo sobre Bitcoin?" "Se que es una especie de almacenamiento de dinero virtual , que por un dólar te dan 2 o 3 bitcoins o algo así , que básicamente se usa para comprar online y conseguir descuentos creo"
mircea_popescu: sounds about right.
shinohai: "descuentos" lel
mircea_popescu: jurov in principle the address of a block is something like /44/4600 for the latest, so 2char dir + 4 char name
mircea_popescu: unless you want to store them by hash, in which case of course it's at most 65 chars, though because of difficulty i expect it should be made 40 or less
mircea_popescu: intuitively though i think blocks should be stored by height.
mircea_popescu: (this scheme guarantees you have at most 9999 files + 99 directories in any directory, which should hold even on windows.)
mircea_popescu: (while the store-by-hash txn scheme promises at most 256 directories OR 65536 files however in practice finding 65536 contiguous hash txn seems rather unlikely for a while yet)
mircea_popescu: shinohai chick's from like 2009, what do you want. she gets 2 or 3 btc for teh dollar.
mircea_popescu: no but srsly, people think this. as per http://trilema.com/2014/la-florida-and-other-places/ ; the whole unwashed orc hordes of the third world actually believe there's something to usgistan.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1588254 << can this be rewritten ? not that we're liable to have over 4bn txn at any point, but more of the principle of the thing "fuck you and your fucking magic numbers. if i run 64bit processors i'll run 64bit disks also motherfuckers!"
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 07:32 jurov: also, there is limit of 2^32 inodes, even in 64-bit mode
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1588255 << eh, prepared queries next year. as it stands you can't even do a select properly.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 07:35 jurov: and to give my 2c also on sql, while it's possible to use some portable standardized ansi sql subset, essential stuff like prepared queries need a database driver
mircea_popescu: (for the record, in practice the utility of prepared statements is often nil, and can be mostly captured through saying eg insert in x values y, values z rather than insert in x values y, insert in x values z. literally the whole benefit is that it compiles the part prior to values just once.
mircea_popescu: whatever, i guess you also get some injection protection. hurr.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1588254 << reiser doesn't use inodes, but iirc also limited to (2^32)-1 ~files~
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 07:32 jurov: also, there is limit of 2^32 inodes, even in 64-bit mode
asciilifeform: so it'd appear that there is no suitable fs in common use.
trinque: the xfs limit is iirc defined as "how much disk space do you want to use for them"
asciilifeform: afaik there is ~no~ fs that gives 'as many of ANYTHING as disk will hold'
asciilifeform: fortranism reigns.
trinque: that was not the claim at all; read the link
mircea_popescu: trinque ah, you can recompile with flag and it makes them 64 ?
trinque: mircea_popescu: looks like just a mount flag in fstab
shinohai has a Qntra on Chinese Gox when BingoBoingo awakens
mircea_popescu: impressive. alrighty then
trinque: definitely merits an experiment
asciilifeform: trinque: pretty interesting
asciilifeform: i have some dark rumble in my gut associated with xfs, possibly from mid-2000s
mircea_popescu is kinda rooting for ext2/3
asciilifeform: iirc it was at one point considered catastrophically unusable unless you had a disk controller with battery
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: seems like you would need a nonstandard/modified-for-extra-bitness ext2/3
asciilifeform: (at which point it may as well be a single-purpose 'bitcoinfs')
mircea_popescu: hey, if xfs works all teh better.
mircea_popescu: also the issue of performance discussed by dave chinner is worthy of consideration (in trinque 's link)
asciilifeform: btw the blocks themselves really would like to live on own disk
asciilifeform: 1MB per
asciilifeform: no partition table or anything.
asciilifeform: then O(1) !!11
mircea_popescu: yes but that's a later phase of this.
asciilifeform: it's trivial to implement though.
asciilifeform: unlike the db switch
mircea_popescu: one thing at a time!
trinque: asciilifeform: https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/software/general-linux-open-source/35664-xfs-in-linux-3-10-to-put-on-extra-protection << it grew up a bit recently
mircea_popescu: anyway, yes, it'd seem iris fs took over the disks meanwhile, who knew.
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: Emin is pushing SGX like solutions. Seems everyone is infected with security theatre these days.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: i have sincerely nfi what is emin or what is an sgx
asciilifeform: do i even want to know
thestringpuller: depends on how much dope you've smoked today
mircea_popescu: no soldering yet ?
thestringpuller: may cause stroke
asciilifeform: ah that
asciilifeform: 'next, bestest ethertardium, now seeek000red with fritz chip'
asciilifeform: iirc this is what they moved mike hearn to
trinque: Teechan is similar in design to the Lightning Network, save for one crucial differentiating factor: it leverages trusted execution environments (TEEs), that is, secure hardware components found in recent commodity processors such as the latest batch of Intel CPUs with Software Guard Extensions (SGX). << why the fuck even bother talking about this
thestringpuller: because whitewashing security is the only way to make people have trust these days?
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: 'people'
mircea_popescu: lol this is like cinderella on monkey island already ; they keep bringing her all sorts of offerings. "boogers ?" "how about some feces ?" "dried feces from yesterday ?" "how about this corn kernel" "ok how about dead molluscs"
mircea_popescu: and in other argentine wtf, /me felt like putting some of the grandiose coffee available here to good use as coffee liqueur. sent girl to farmacy, where she bought 1 liter bottle of pure ethylic alcohol (98%). for like 6 bux. it's fabulous, tastes mildly of corn.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/D6w9h/?raw=true
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: worx
asciilifeform: and no rush.
asciilifeform: in other vintage lulz, https://tonyarcieri.com/volapuk-a-cautionary-tale-for-any-language-community << esperantists had their own python3, apparently.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform tbh, the reason a "constructed language" is readily forgotten is precisely the fact that it was constructed.
mircea_popescu: it's not a ~real~ language, but a very pathetic ersatz.
asciilifeform: idea was, iirc, to make more compact thing, without 'hair' and irregular cases etc
mircea_popescu: this is a stupid idea, not unlike "to make more compact human, without apendix, tonsils etc"
asciilifeform: or airplane without feathers
asciilifeform: auto -- without hooves.
mircea_popescu: the ignorance of random john smiths with "progressive" delusions of self importance is scarcely a basis for existence.
asciilifeform: that there lived no one remotely qualified to touch the problem, does not make it a nonproblem
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform a language is not a car nor an aeroplane. also engineers are not nearly as important ; or powerful as they like to pretend.
mircea_popescu: this can be trivially verified at any party of models/sluts where we invite a few engineers.
asciilifeform: the limits of the power of engineer were being explored in those days.
mircea_popescu: aha. and the results - informative.
mircea_popescu: sutor ne ultra grease bucket.
asciilifeform: (notice, few modern folx would presume to try.)
asciilifeform: i still wonder about the supposed 4 mil or how many esperantists, who taught their children, etc. was it disinfo ? and if not, where did they go ?
asciilifeform: i'll point out that there is also an 'if it prospers, none dare call it treason' effect going on. modern hebrew, for instance, is nearly as much a conlang as esperanto.
asciilifeform: ditto what the ukrs speak on orc tv (~none of the public heads speak anything but ru at home)
phf: газова горилка
asciilifeform: lel aha
mircea_popescu: anyway. an airplane is very strictly not a bird without feathers ; there's no relation to a bird whatsoever, an airplane is a sort of bus not a sort of bird.
mircea_popescu: and engineered languages are exactly an island of dr moreau, a place that a) can't exist and b) whose only conceptual function is to show how fucking unbearably tedious old women are.
asciilifeform: catholic latin was every bit the engineered.
mircea_popescu: i have no fucking idea why the postmenopausal worldview is even tolerated by actual engineers ; if i thought myself one i'd actually spend half my time having people a la "we'll make a language" whipped at the public stake
mircea_popescu: much like serious theologians in the 1000s did to idiot shamans.
phf: asciilifeform: so was Sanskrit, but at that point the line of "engineered" becomes very blured
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform re the "taught their children" : engineer-parents are no fucking better than engineers generally. and again the dr moreau reference rules supreme.
mircea_popescu: bear in mind that at the height of jewish idiocy (well, 2nd height, after being stupid in the 30s) manifested as israel socialism, uppity bitches pretended to "teach" their daughters to be naked in public because "no shame" because hey, old woman engineer thinks herself powerful enough to repress the male gaze.
mircea_popescu: the result was that 3rd generation girls reverted naturally to the coy behaviour, and the whole thing is today forgotten to the point you don't know about it
asciilifeform: not forgotten, it is lulled at in every work re kibbutzim
mircea_popescu: nor do the average old women who put forth their usual menopausal engineering pretense within my earshot and get treated to a large helping of stfu and make sandwiches.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ok so then if you know, what are you on aboot!
asciilifeform: the kibbutz was a bonsaikitten and deservedly vanished. but their conlang! worked!111
mircea_popescu: eh, hiding behind that to salvage your pretense to engineering power is exactly how and why engineer kids are always the ones who don't see any cunt at slut parties.
mircea_popescu: some parts were conlang and some parts worked etc.
asciilifeform: i hate to distract mircea_popescu from a good gloat re the impotence of engineer, but i'd like to see where he cuts the subj : viable conlang is impossible because no one remotely understands meat well enough? or, useless, even if it were made ? ... or both ?
mircea_popescu: anyway ; language reform sometimes works - but this because it was a language, not because it was reform. similarily to how cutting fruit trees works, but this is because they are trees, not because of the cutting. if you cut a broom whatever way it's not gonna make plums.
mircea_popescu: viable conlang is impossible for the reason woman-cut-from-marble is impossible : the substance uses lacks the capacity for the intended usage.
mircea_popescu: the substance used*
asciilifeform: meat vitalism?! what happened to the robocalypse?!
mircea_popescu: language ~is a convention~, yes, but it is ~made from~ experience ; not consensus. people don't say "people" to denote people because ~they~ agreed to, but because people in the past ~have~.
mircea_popescu: this history is irreplaceable.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform robots that speak natural languages ? where this, at mit ?
asciilifeform: same place as 'play go' robot (btw afaik 0 pro games since sedol... as i predicted)
mircea_popescu: yes, eventually, once v is so old to have been forgotten like the original calculations for the pyramids, robots will perhaps have enough linguistic history that you could pretend idiomatic-c is no less a language than latin.
mircea_popescu: but the historical matrix of language (on which for instance myth is merely encoding artefact of lived experience) is the key ingredient to language - which is why romanian, a language spoken by a people for many years is much more powerful than enlgish, a language spoken by much more mongrels, but not so long really.
mircea_popescu: and your objection to "ukrainian" which is a lulz much like the "croatian" for instance doesn't come and isn't informed nor supported by "the poor quality of conventions employed". it's its lack of history that marks it, correctly, as nonsense.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: iirc most conlangists were not trying to beat french, romanian, russian, etc; but to beat commercial pidgins like english, which suffer from severely limited vocabulary and many nonsensical sharp edges
mircea_popescu: yes, but they were idiots in another way : much like stalin's central planning committee (as implemented by the stuart court in london) can't beat the disorganised merchants of the low countries - just so five dorks with nary a clue can't compete with the combinatorial experimentation of the actual pigdin.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha, urk 'ebonics' is perfectly speakable, just like the american variant, but (until recently) 0 written word.
asciilifeform: then again finnish had ~0 written word until 19th c
mircea_popescu: you will ~never provide a better solution to the waterflow via running equations than via running the fucking water.
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/12/chinese-altcoin-exchange-btc38-serves-1-5-million-rmb-of-your-loss/ << Qntra - Chinese Altcoin Exchange BTC38 Serves 1.5 Million RMB Of Your Loss
mircea_popescu: they're covering it too huh
BingoBoingo: shinohai fxd
phf: another take on this might be common lisp vs scheme. cl was standardized after the fact, existed and evolved on lisp machines. i'm looking at mit's cadr at the moment, and at a certain point you have maclisp, interlisp, zetalisp and "common lisp" all coexisting on the same machine, 10 years before the standard was written. scheme on the other hand was esparantoed for a purpose. the result is that as you move closer to speaking common
phf: lisp natively, you find all these nooks and crannies in the language that facilitate. nothing like that exists in scheme
shinohai: ty BingoBoingo
asciilifeform: phf: pray tell : what does having 'elt' AND 'nth' around, facilitate ?
asciilifeform: other than bloat
asciilifeform: plus, for that matter, 'aref'
phf: asciilifeform: we had this thread, and i had an answer for you that you didn't like
asciilifeform: link plox
phf: i'm already spelunking logs for v history, to go on another trip at the moment :)
asciilifeform: i can definitely see the pov of, e.g., lisp2ists
asciilifeform: and there are entirely good 'scheme is skeletal to the point of complete unusability in factory state' arguments
asciilifeform: but i have nfi why to get attached to dross and nonorthogonal crapolade.
asciilifeform: outright, indefensible babelade like nth and elt.
mircea_popescu: this otherwise defensible stand (at least in general) is why computer languages may never become more than shopping lists ; but then again fashion-behaviour (as seen in both languages and github/reddit) may have the last word.
phf: asciilifeform: last time i said that cons structures and sequences solve two entirely unrelated problems. cons specifically is a fundamental memory management abstraction for a von neumann machine (it solves the insert problem), so has its own set of operations that can predictable performance and behavioral characteristic.
phf: *that has
asciilifeform: phf: that's defensible, but only defends aref
mircea_popescu: one's enough.
asciilifeform: now tell me why elt-AND-nth.
asciilifeform: and if this were the only such example!
asciilifeform: there are 100 others.
mircea_popescu cheers on
phf: asciilifeform: elt is a sequence operator, nth is a cons cell operator. cons/car/cdr/nth/list etc. you can express nth in terms of car/cdr. you can't express elt in terms of any of those
phf: elt can potentially escape in the error clause to handle extensible sequences (and it does on SBCL)
asciilifeform: common lisp committee was hobbled by babelism, had to stuff in the redundant idiocies, and never got to, say, actually developing streams properly (why the fuck are we stuck with hacks like gray streams? and where is the commonlisp with ~working~ mop ? etc)
phf: i'm not here to ~defend~ common lisp, i made an analogy that didn't stick
mircea_popescu: i'm not terribly unhappy with the analogy.
asciilifeform: phf: why not one op that dispatches, correctly ? is it as if the compiler ever did not know the actual operand's type ?
mircea_popescu: it's just not clear if it has much substance on the jaguar's side. but clearly when ~you~ look into its eyes, ~you~ perceive a soul there.
phf: well, asciilifeform's reaction to it is consistent to his perspective on conlangs, so i learned something
asciilifeform: imho the jury is out on conlangs.
mircea_popescu: here's a view that may help alf : natural language is the summarized http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-11#1581451 calculated over something like 10*5 * 10*7 * 50*24*365*50 ~played~ instances of prisoner's dilemma.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-11 19:54 mircea_popescu: phf suppose you make an ai expert system to beat us at go. this gives you two practical options : either include 10gb worth of binary flags preset ; or else have us beat it at go for 10 centuries before it gets to where it plays like a freshly fucked 19yo.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: sorta why i was specifically curious re what it was that the esperantist ~children~ spoke. the resultant creole, not the original 'megalomaniacal engineer' item.
mircea_popescu: natural language dictionaries are usually in the 100k symbols range ; however natural languages altogether are very large graphs, and i'd venture in the yottabyte range.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the problem is that for most people, language is the only thought-amplifier they have. once you teach them a non-language they're very severely fucked.
mircea_popescu: wolf children of india also spoke "conlang" by this measure.
asciilifeform: which is why i'd like to see ~how~ they were fucked, there has to be some remaining crater to look at
mircea_popescu: now this may well be a great use for one linguist-anthropologist's career. you wanna be it ?
asciilifeform: 'ten years in the lab can save you ten minutes in the library'
mircea_popescu: you have a better shot at finding well written c-s implementation in the library.
mircea_popescu: but w/e, maybe my very dim view of "scholarship" in the field is entirely unwarranted, i'm just a meadhater and library contains "a river of gold", to quote obama.
asciilifeform: afaik esperantism was one of those crackpotteries utterly thermonuked by ww1, so i have nfi where one would even begin to look for remnants.
phf: indian children still mostly speak conlang "by this measure". there's something like 15 ~official~ dialects, all of which have a significant post panini sanskrit incursion so that in say malayalam you have two different ~grammatical~ structures available to express the same thing, malay and sanskrit.
mircea_popescu hasn't fucked that many indian womenz has not much clue as to their native barking system.
asciilifeform worked in a lab with two dozen folx from india, no 2 spoke same language other than english
asciilifeform: the most, afaik, egregious babel on planet3.
mircea_popescu: well, india is a sort of china's africa. except the chinese were too lazy to properly fuck theirs.
phf: i still remember how my hired driver crossed the state line and had to speak a very broken english with the locals to ask for directions
mircea_popescu: but fwiw, serbian chick stands out in my mind, she was 19, her poor head had just come out of 12 years of which 6 were spent doing cyrilics and the other 6 doing ~BOTH~ latin and cyrillic and who genuinely thought that you know, this is BETTER EDUCATION!! because where other people got one, she got both!!1
mircea_popescu: on the other hand i could readily notice the havoc this had wrought upon her poor brain.
phf: asciilifeform: actually Esperanto was big in su. it was not an anathema to say that in the communist future the peoples of the word are going to speak not just Russian, but also some other, better, universal language. certainly interstellar trade would need something better. or when you talk to machines.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it was how asciilifeform never learned to properly hand-write
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yep, exactly in that vein.
mircea_popescu: too slow a reader, etc.
asciilifeform: now this i escaped.
asciilifeform: no shortage of what to read.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, speaking of misfortunate subhumans : anyone care to guess the most frequent answer my bot gets ? it's "most frequent" in the sense that the next-frequent is like 2 std deviations rarer. hint : it's a question.
mircea_popescu: hahaha. this ~has not yet appeared~. no mention. 0. it simply does not occur.
asciilifeform: i meant, which bot
asciilifeform: aah hm
asciilifeform: no bot there?
asciilifeform: maybe http://trilema.com/2016/how-the-other-half-lives-a-very-seriously-funny-article/ ?
mircea_popescu: hm ?
mircea_popescu: oh right right sorry my bad
asciilifeform: ok i'ma guess 'a,s,l?' or similar
mircea_popescu: the boys are shockingly shy, it surprised me. 10 years ago used to be about 100x more virulent.
asciilifeform: then i have monumentally nfi
mircea_popescu: yeah. but it made me smile an ancient smile, because it is "who are you".
mircea_popescu: the republic is undefeatable ; the empire is indefensible.
mircea_popescu: ah whatevs. dude what a fucking tabloid this nytimes is. no, us didn't "blacklist" anything.
phf: word on the street, that u.s. alibaba office is hiring like crazy, and that the salaries are so high, microsoft/amazon/apple no longer attempt to match compensation in the event of the poaching. so "blacklist"
mircea_popescu: aha. the way this has to go.
mircea_popescu: kinda brings to mind this lulzy discussion from 2013 : http://trilema.com/2013/the-wonder-of-inflation/#comment-93905 "dude, if inflation is this high, us gdp must be shrinking ?" "certainly is".
BingoBoingo: OMG, at least half of all US small business now is private labeling shit from alibaba and reselling!
mircea_popescu: making us a sort of argentina with slightly better developed oil expoitation.
asciilifeform: phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1588411 << have some pointers, http://btcbase.org/log/2014-10-23#890120 , http://btcbase.org/log/2015-04-03#1087259 , http://btcbase.org/log/2015-08-05#1225073 (mega-thread) , http://btcbase.org/log/2015-08-05#1225194 , http://btcbase.org/log/2015-08-05#1225522 , http://btcbase.org/log/2015-08-05#1225571 , http://btcbase.org/log/2015-08-05#1225624 , http://btcbase.org/log/2015-08-08#1230216 (fir
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 17:46 phf: i'm already spelunking logs for v history, to go on another trip at the moment :)
a111: Logged on 2014-10-23 04:41 asciilifeform: no hidden formats
a111: Logged on 2015-04-03 21:41 asciilifeform: trinque: when you use a version control apparatus, it is very easy to produce patches that cannot be applied using your mind
a111: Logged on 2015-08-05 03:55 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform he still has a point. a) we're careening dangerously towards -dev levels and b) people can't fucking follow wtf is on that list.
a111: Logged on 2015-08-05 04:42 asciilifeform: also the continuity of identity. if, for example, my patches at some point go from tiny to elephantine, from single-purpose to 'omnibus', from deadly-simple to 'wtf is that' - folks are to presume that i have been finally killed and key is in hands of hitler. and should then rate accordingly.
a111: Logged on 2015-08-05 13:38 mircea_popescu: one is USE. specifically - hanbot must be able to put into work the theoretical advances b-a produces. and ima use her as a stand-in for "intelligent and willing to work, but not able to grow a beard".
a111: Logged on 2015-08-05 14:00 mircea_popescu: there's no reason for this to take a week to do.
a111: Logged on 2015-08-05 14:11 mircea_popescu: how would this b-a versioning system work ?
a111: Logged on 2015-08-08 04:11 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in somewhat related nyooz, i've been experimenting with what for now i call 'v' - a very dumb 'versioner' that i've been writing, which eats solely 0) pgp keys 1) patches 2) signatures for same, many-to-many mapping of (2) to (1)
a111: Logged on 2015-08-31 14:33 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-08-2015#1257082 << i loathe python per se. but the only realistic alternative was perl. (my original attempts at 'v' were in awk/sed, and did not work very well)
asciilifeform: ok this was heavy but probably useful.
mircea_popescu: da fuck
asciilifeform: stress test for a111!11111
phf: actually the subject is an ongoing, year old conversation about about V as a way to represent knowledge starts with http://btcbase.org/log/2015-09-12#1271598 and then gets revisited every couple of months
a111: Logged on 2015-09-12 20:28 mircea_popescu: which... you know, i slept on this, and it occurs to me that ACTUAL MATHEMATICS might be the perfect thing to implement over V.
mircea_popescu: phf ah, yes, but note that the item contemplated there is specifically not discussion ; but its results.
mircea_popescu: but yah, seems v was born principally out of a discussion on august 5th
asciilifeform: it was a fairly unambitious generalization from things we had already been doing by hand in trbdom
asciilifeform: and also from a comment by mircea_popescu that went something like 'i must be able to put finger on a line of code and get names'
phf: mircea_popescu: i misremembered, because later V in my mind merged with gossipd (http://btcbase.org/log/2016-01-19#1376781)
a111: Logged on 2016-01-19 14:46 mircea_popescu: you could technically run a chan off v.
mircea_popescu: software design as god intended. FIRST you do by hand ; THEN you automate the parts worth automating.
mircea_popescu: phf aha
phf: but the reason i made those statements yesterday is because i think that like saying things in log is an opportunity to be corrected, so does posting a vpatch, it could be a learning experience. instead the mindset seems to be http://btcbase.org/log/2016-02-20#1411214
a111: Logged on 2016-02-20 22:45 phf: "i, ordained computron mircea lifeform, in the year of our republic 1932, having devoted three months to the verification of checksums, with my heart pure and my press clean, sit down to transcribe vee patch ascii_limits_hack, signed by the illustrious asciilifeform, mircea_popescu, ben_vulpes and all saints."
asciilifeform: phf: i stabbed at the problem of formalizing a way to specify what it is you actually commit to when signing a patch. it was the 'vectorized' thing, and everybody barfed.
asciilifeform: so we're at the chalkboard still.
mircea_popescu: phf you don't have to post a snippet of code as ~vpatch~. can just pastebin it also
asciilifeform: phf: recently mircea_popescu suggested a cleaner scheme where everybody has multiple signing keys, and they rate one another, as if they were people. which is probably as mechanized as this will ever get.
mircea_popescu: you ~can~ after all rebase a patch ; not just because of the patch, but also because of the sig.
mircea_popescu: ie, item X enters life signed by "doubful matter key Z" and then a year later is signed by "ok this is it key Z" and makes it to the stable press
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: signed-but-non-vtronic snippets are vulnerable to context misplacement.
mircea_popescu: nono, vtronic.
mircea_popescu: can release patch today under your text sig ; rebase it later with your main sig.
phf: mircea_popescu: correction in this case can come in a form of another vpatch either by original author after the discussion or by anyone who wants to make annotations, etc. in which case the dialog becomes valuable on its own, because it preserves the differences that have didactic value
mircea_popescu: you can literally come up with an idea for a thing while travelling ; go to internet cafe ; spin up gpg to make you a new key while you bash it down ; then sign the patch with that key which you don't even bother taking from there.
mircea_popescu: if it's any good, you can always sign it later as phf.
asciilifeform: important thing to remember, though, is that once you sign something, it ~exists~, and you cannot control it by selectively posting it to this-public-site but not that-public-site
asciilifeform: a 'helpful' fella can simply repaste it.
mircea_popescu: phf yes, in principle. in practice i expect "centralizing" rebasing vpatches to happen all the time to prune trees of their noncontroversial joints.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what does the cafe key provide ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform a fixed form.
asciilifeform: that a naked, barbaric pastebin would not
mircea_popescu: i'm just saying - there's nothing lost here. can emulate naked pastebin in v style np.
asciilifeform: there's no 'fixed form' from a key made on public comp tho
asciilifeform: may as well sign with a phuctored key
mircea_popescu: ~same as of a pastebin
asciilifeform: quite the same
phf: i guess the multiple keys idea was already introduced in gossipd (in the original spec i suspect it was a solution to "no automatic RSA-ing" problem)
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-08-28#1254193 << moar detail from 'history of v', for the record.
a111: Logged on 2015-08-28 03:13 asciilifeform: thing does exactly three basic kinds of thing - verifies sigs; determines what subcoagulations of spittle in the spittoon are in fact in single strands; and permits operator to select individual strands, and cut'em (by whatever criteria, including signatories or combinations thereof)
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's grandfather had a gigantic tray of rubber stamps, of what must have been a dozen different shapes, and when signing a document would first stamp it with the rubber that corresponded to the imperial role in which the signing was to take place. this was orc sop. and i suppose the concept is doomed to stick around.
phf: asciilifeform: these are basically three different solutions to the same problem of "how to allow more than one kind of vpatch". yours is mechanical, mine is an attempt to expand the mythos and mp's is cutting the gordian knot
asciilifeform: and there are bound to be mistakes, ranging from the harmless lul to the utter calamity, 'oops i used my 'royal alchemist' stamp instead of 'dildolathe operator by appointment to Her Majesty' stamp'
asciilifeform: but such is life.
asciilifeform: phf: mircea_popescu's method , to be used in the battlefield, still needs some means of tying the keys together formally -- and something that doesn't reduce to the horror of gpg's 'subkeys'
mircea_popescu: should be entirely at operator's option.
asciilifeform: but what is the best way to make permanent record that ' mircea_popescu's i-found-this-in-back-of-desk-drawer ' key is subservient strictly to ' mircea_popescu royal key ' ?
mircea_popescu: why would such record be made ?
asciilifeform: to not give the enemy a place to stick the knife.
mircea_popescu: illustrate this
asciilifeform: well iirc in mircea_popescu's original sketch, the sole linkage between mircea_popescu-royalkey and mircea_popescu-apocryphakey is a wot rating. and wot as we have it is an ephemeral thing, which relies on ability to interrogate living people, and not only living but near to the interlocutor in wot.
asciilifeform: signatures, on the other hand, are not ephemeral but permanent.
asciilifeform: so we have here a suit of armour where the leather straps rot, but the iron -- does not.
mircea_popescu: and ?
asciilifeform: and it is doomed to look quite different, with passage of time, than the maker intends.
mircea_popescu: if patches are signed by dead people only, they don't belong in presses
mircea_popescu: there;s no intention involved in or supported by vtronics
asciilifeform: a rsa signature is a canned, if you will, piece of volition.
asciilifeform: there is intent.
mircea_popescu: i udn see it.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu has a pretty good exposition of this, not long ago, in the 'opposed' thread
mircea_popescu: how does that come to "intention" ?
mircea_popescu: facts are opposable. intentions aren't a thing.
asciilifeform: actually the relevant mircea_popescu article was another, where he had example of a man who is about to be hanged, but argues that the man who did the crime, is not the one who is bound and led to the gallows
asciilifeform: if you have 'soft' linkages between subservient keys, and no way to 'harden' them for the record, a slick operator could simply shed subpersonalities like snake skins, and there will be doubt in re the contiguity of identity, where there ought be no possibility of doubt.
mircea_popescu: nobody forces you to even consider patches signed by people out of your wot.
asciilifeform: nobody forces you to use comp either
asciilifeform: or to drink salt water in the lifeboat.
asciilifeform: all of the extant vtrons, i will point out, run on linux, which is a monstrous horror of the deep that no one in my wot has signed, ditto python, perl, etc.
mircea_popescu: i suspect we'll get to it.
asciilifeform: we are far from the autarkik vplanet.
mircea_popescu: anyway. i have a perfectly serviceable way to harden keys for the record. it's just not ~standardized~, and it's unclear it should be.
asciilifeform: what'd it be, hypothetically ?
mircea_popescu: well cuz i can say so. "key x is my key".
asciilifeform: deedbot-of-humanreadable is not 'harden', it does not utterly thermonuke the possibility of ambiguity.
mircea_popescu: your notion of harden is both illusory and useless.
asciilifeform: 'harden' means hardness on the level of rsa signature itself.
mircea_popescu: rsa signature is not hard per your definition.
asciilifeform: it is not infinitely hard, but is a standard, like diamond, for what is realistic hardness.
mircea_popescu: and how is my declaration weaker ?
asciilifeform: if it were not weaker, there would be no work for jurists, neh ?
asciilifeform: comp could do their work.
mircea_popescu: this doesn't follow.
mircea_popescu: universality and hardness are orthogonal, how hard a diamond is as a standard of realistic hardness has entirely nothing to do with how many cunts wear one around their whatever appendage.
asciilifeform: gedankenexperiment. say i have a billion signed texts, from all over the galaxy, and also a number of keys, can i mechanically query 'documents signed by all of mircea_popescu's known subserviant keys' ? is the notion that anyone trying to do this is by definition up to no good ?
asciilifeform: because if so, making the declarations 'human text' is hardly an effective barrier
mircea_popescu: yes, once you populate a db with the keyids of "known mp's subservient keys" you can
mircea_popescu: and there's no "up to good" or "no good" directionality of intent involved here. he is up to nonsense, because meaning and universality are mutually exclusive.
asciilifeform: yes but let's suppose that mircea_popescu mistyped, deliberately or otherwise, a character(s) in the string, and wrote 'kye x is ym key'
asciilifeform: still 'counts' for the purpose of automated wotronics ?
mod6: So I have made a couple small changes to my V99995, and have put together an output trace of what we were seeing with V99995 and what we now see with the changes made in a possible V99994 version. Review of this would be nice to validate that the behavior is correct: http://www.mod6.net/v-99994-trace.txt
mircea_popescu: automated vtronics is like having cat "read" balzac for you.
asciilifeform: a blind man may well have a machine with many fewer moving parts than cat, read his balzac.
mircea_popescu: no i mean while you're not there.
mircea_popescu: it just you know, reads it by itself.
mircea_popescu: "for" you
ben_vulpes: mod6: appears to address concerns
mircea_popescu: if you have a collection of keys you're - for whatever reason, maybe they're all me, maybe they're my harem, maybe they're all the people from russia, whatever - interested in, yes you can build the set of all pathes they signed.
mircea_popescu: but ~making that list~ is entirely unmachineable ; and me being very careful not to typo doesn't help
ben_vulpes: can you cook a diff between v9..5 and v9..4 ?
mod6: sure, but i'll remain unsigned until testing.
mircea_popescu: (which is what all ~ALL~ standardization EVER does - makes it so you're really careful not to typo. it can't resolve problems of the other nature, just this.)
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1588519 << 'rebase' in my mind entails changing vpatch to have new hashes, or some other mutation. just transmitting a new sig does not change where a patch might lie in the tree.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 18:49 mircea_popescu: you ~can~ after all rebase a patch ; not just because of the patch, but also because of the sig.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes how would you call it ? reseal ?
ben_vulpes: what's wrong with 'signing'?
mircea_popescu: i dunno, seems somewhat unclear to me.
mircea_popescu: reseal = the act of signing a patch with your own key.
mircea_popescu: sign = the act of signing anything.
ben_vulpes: whence 're', though. that other key was 'derpderp ben_vulpes', not 'foundation chair ben_vulpes'
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes which of the trb genesis seals are seal and which reseal ?
ben_vulpes: all are seal imho
ben_vulpes: reseal, what is this. signed same matter again?
mircea_popescu: so then rebase / seal.
ben_vulpes: rebase/regrind to move the patch in the tree and seal to...seal.
phf: i feel like there was a neat article about the history of seals somewhere inthe logs, but i can't find it
phf: i think it might've been by the same guy who did "history of timekeeping" or somesuch that was briefly trashed hmm
mircea_popescu: naggum ?
phf: no no different article
mircea_popescu reads recipes for coffee liqueur on web. INSTANT COFFEE! they... USE WATER! holy shit...
phf: it sort traced western history from the perspective of time measurement. "and then they had a city clock to synchronize everyone"
mircea_popescu: phf oh sounds like szabo
mircea_popescu: guy's very uneven, bright ideas + bad scholarship.
phf: ah, right that's the guy
mircea_popescu: in other lulz : if you google bitcoin authors you get : Andreas Antonopoulos, Gavin Andresen, Adam Back, Brian Behlendorf, Wences Casares, Hal Finney, Satoshi Nakamoto, Charlie Shrem.
mircea_popescu: i kid you not.
asciilifeform: phf: it was szabo.
asciilifeform: and holyshit, is his site gone??
mircea_popescu: it is ?
asciilifeform: it dun load for me
asciilifeform: phf: on the other hand , 'long and painful history of time' ~was~ naggum
phf: asciilifeform: yeah, seems down
phf: it must've been down for a while, because wikipedia uses archive.is to link to his homepage
asciilifeform: it was alive last we spoke of it here...
phf: yeah, i remember mp scoffing at "a measure of sacrifice" few months ago
mircea_popescu: pity we didn't have the bot archival thing earlier huh.
phf: pitty we didn't have it from the beginning. all those beautiful tumblr pictures lost forever
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 858.95, vol: 12335.15818543 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 843.9, vol: 8349.45358 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 859.65, vol: 17134.15426123 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 874.962365, vol: 5619669.47630000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 856.84, vol: 2768.47470403 | Volume-weighted last average: 874.826433963
ben_vulpes: phf: and how!
mircea_popescu: cunt is the one thing that's not running out.
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: please to s/being/behind in pencil piece as per ben_vulpes' appreciated astutery.
BingoBoingo: ty fxd
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2016/mps-harem-level-black-russian/ << Trilema - MP's Harem Level Black Russian
pete_dushenski: "Burning tree liters" << pun o typo ?
pete_dushenski: i've heard of burning trees and i've heard of burning litres... but putting them together results in little more than a vw hippie wagon in my head.
pete_dushenski: so ~that's~ where all my outsized vitriol went.
mod6: ben_vulpes: haha
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/12/us-leftists-begin-collecting-arms/ << Qntra - US Leftists Begin Collecting Arms
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: crazily enough, pingbacks work when issued from my own wp instance
asciilifeform: ^ this is seriously neato , ben_vulpes
ben_vulpes: ty asciilifeform
ben_vulpes: do let me know if you find anything odd about it
asciilifeform downloaded it earlier today when ben_vulpes first posted, but not yet tested.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: that genesis is mildly diddled from the earlier paste
ben_vulpes: and yes, thing has sharp edges, betrays exit codes for some unix processes
ben_vulpes: very much a harem-v. but -- works for me.
asciilifeform: possibly my point re 'harem v' was ambiguous. what i wanted to say was that ~every~ vtron has a harem end and a forum end
asciilifeform: the forum end eats, shits vpatches
asciilifeform: the harem end -- presses, and does miscellaneous housekeeping ops (e.g., 'origin')
asciilifeform: a hypothetical vtron with a correct forum-end and a disastrously broken harem-end can only hose ~the owner~
ben_vulpes: i did mistake that to mean "vs the public is pointed to as example vs. vs whose operations are private to the owner"
asciilifeform: the only necessarily public part, i will point out, is the vpatches
asciilifeform: hypothetically we could live exactly the same way with NO published vtrons at all!
asciilifeform: and each man -- wrote his own.
asciilifeform: (the seals and keys also must be public, naturally, but i am referring to the collective 'set' here)
asciilifeform: that's what 'harem end' means -- that it literally does not matter how it works, except TO YOU
asciilifeform: just as ben_vulpes has 0 particular reason to care how asciilifeform laid out his keyboard, or that it weighs 6kg
asciilifeform: or how my display gamma is set.
asciilifeform: on the other hand, if asciilifeform were to decide to speak ebcdic one day, we would have a problem talking.
Framedragger thanks ben_vulpes for the CL implementation
asciilifeform: lel yudkoswkyism
Framedragger: (note, slow start, spoiler: derision revealed after premises presented)
asciilifeform: 'AI risk is string theory for computer programmers. It's fun to think about, interesting, and completely inaccessible to experiment given our current technology. You can build crystal palaces of thought, working from first principles, then climb up inside them and pull the ladder up behind you.'
asciilifeform: aha it's the ceglowksi d00d!
asciilifeform: the one with the pirate radio.
Framedragger: (mp suggested to invite him over, and here i am childishly fearing that he'll hate this place, mp will decide that he's not mp-complete/ready, and that's gonna be that. i know, sad.)
ben_vulpes: what'd the repulic accrete this year, 2 new faces?
asciilifeform: we had this with at least 1 d00d who i respected (spandrel/'bloody shovel')
ben_vulpes: shinohai and Framedragger ?
ben_vulpes: o also vc
asciilifeform: !~seen vc
jhvh1: asciilifeform: I have not seen vc.
phf: !#seen vc
a111: 2016-06-12 <vc> Framedragger: I'm cool with port scans, neither me nor my parent host cares
asciilifeform: the other bot -- broken, or wat.
phf: other bot only recalls anyone it saw since it started running, where's a111 is looking at logs
asciilifeform: 'since it started running' sounds 100% useless
asciilifeform: who the hell knows when it started running.
asciilifeform: for all i know - five seconds ago.
asciilifeform: and will reboot again in another 5.
ben_vulpes: better to not offer that feature if that's how it works today, shinohai
phf: well, it probably keeps a state somewhere, but i mean since it got deployed, which was probably around the ba->tmsr
phf: fwiw if shinohai can give me a state format, i could trivially produce a seen table for anyone pre split
shinohai: ben_vulpes: I came in 2015
ben_vulpes: aok, so 1 then?
ben_vulpes: haw haw haw btc market cap > twitter market cap
ben_vulpes: in "comparing made up numbers" news
asciilifeform: in other non-news, https://mjos.fi << possibly interesting d00d of the dan bernstein type
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/294C0DC51A456CD1069D56E7B298CC2FDA9D8CF641980590454BE9B6C7F8051C << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1618...3777 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '18.104.22.168 (ssh-rsa key from 22.214.171.124 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown HK)
mircea_popescu: it's pretty much been 100% ssh huh
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: randos throw in pgp keys still, half dozen or so in a month typically
asciilifeform: the most recent one of these to pop was the german thing
mod6: "Real name: mod6" "Name must be at least 5 characters long"
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1588544 << can you explain this mythos expand thing again ?
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 19:01 phf: asciilifeform: these are basically three different solutions to the same problem of "how to allow more than one kind of vpatch". yours is mechanical, mine is an attempt to expand the mythos and mp's is cutting the gordian knot
mod6: oh, fwiw, --gen-key --allow-freeform-uid
mircea_popescu: iirc it also had --expert or such
mircea_popescu: mod6 i read through http://www.mod6.net/v-99994-trace.txt and indeed it seems right and proper vtronics. one q though : was there any patch not signed by asciilifeform interspersed in the flow ? because that's the only not tested case i think, if you have say a->b->c->d where a, c and d are signed by x. does it stop at a ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: can easily simulate this by deleting a seal
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes this incidentally is a very cogent point you bring, "Multiple implementations of an ambiguous specification provide far more value than the "many eyes" mantra of open source advocates. An implementation in Python might burn the eyes of a Perl hacker, and the Perl be entirely inscrutable to a man who's never touched it before, and even were such a man to sit down and learn Python for the purpose of auditing another'
mircea_popescu: s V implementation, it is in no way obvious that the time cost of his learning the language combined with the risk that he misses details in the audit is a better resource expenditure than simply implementing the tool again in his language of choice."
mod6: mircea_popescu: this is a solid point for testing, let me give this a test and see how it goes. will report.
mircea_popescu: as alf points out not hard, just nuke one seal
mircea_popescu: well, rename the file lol
phf: i'm about to upgrade btcbase, which in this case is an invasive procedure so bot's going to be down for a bit (15 minutes or so if everything goes well), after that there might be some bugs so feel free to yell at me
mircea_popescu: finally moving it to .net ?
shinohai throws moldy cabbage at phf
phf: things have been too stable, so i'm moving it literate pascal
mircea_popescu: but whai
mircea_popescu: i hear literate pascal is good.\
phf: not in my hands
mircea_popescu: now we know what it means when phf tells a girl he'll be 10-15 minutes.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes do you mean you iterate through all the seals ? :D
phf: jinxed :p
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1588683 << actually that's a perfectly fine meaning whatever he meant.
mircea_popescu subscribes to the harem- usage explained in ch.
asciilifeform: hm for some reason i thought we had autofallover on scriba
asciilifeform: (if a111 doesn't answer in $time)
mircea_popescu: and wtf "today we are building machine intelligence" idiocy is this.
asciilifeform: it's the pl d00d, with the pirate tv station in the solidarity years, the antarctic expedition, etc
mircea_popescu: ah. ok. anyway, it's funny, because compare this part : http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1588385 meets this part : "At this point, the robot is getting smarter as well, and participates in its own redesign."
mircea_popescu: see, the man looked in the jaguar's eyes, and SAW a soul there. little bit of circularity.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the thing is a flame, and it was not obvious to me either on 1st pass.
mircea_popescu: "it has good instincts as to what's funny and what's not". really ?
mircea_popescu: yes, when i teach a 15 yo to fuck, she ~has good instincts~ about what's slutty and what's not ; and works to clear the shit her mother shat on her so the slut within can shine
mircea_popescu: but the machine has no mother to shit on it ; AND NO GOOD INSTINCTS. or any instincts at all.
mircea_popescu: i take it she came this time ?
a111: Logged on 2012-04-13 11:00 `MBot: [ GLBSE ] [ TRADE ] [ TYGRR-BOT ] [ 2 x 0.99999 = 1.999980 BTC ]
mircea_popescu: dude sweet.
mircea_popescu: what was the stats link ?
asciilifeform: this was... #otc ..?
mircea_popescu: phf any idea why ← 2012-04-15 ⏐ 2012-08-10 → ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no 2012 is very early ba
mircea_popescu: i have jun 2011 - apr 2012 otc logs also, but by now really scraping the bottom.
phf: asciilifeform: i'm not sure, but the ancient log connects cleanly into where kako starts
phf: it was mostly an opportunity to cleanup very messy internal log keeping that involved multiple sliced in memory arrays..
mircea_popescu: phf but why the gap ?
phf: looking into it
asciilifeform: phf: is there an automagical way to query when $nick first appeared ?
phf: http://btcbase.org/log-first-post?nick=mircea_popescu (that feature was requested by trinque)
phf: it's a redirector so not very convenient
mircea_popescu: pretty cool.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2014-03-20#570859 << in which we find phf has been around for years.\
a111: Logged on 2014-03-20 22:39 phf: not quite
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2013-02-02#-142550 , http://btcbase.org/log/2013-02-02#-142536 << lel, there must be a missing piece, did i really appear in the log before saying anything
a111: Logged on 2013-02-02 19:41 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1009 re-doing that would be a worthy exercise
a111: Logged on 2013-02-02 19:50 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: working on it
asciilifeform goes to pull own log out of dusty pit
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> i have jun 2011 - apr 2012 otc logs also, but by now really scraping the bottom. << these would be cool tho
mod6: high-drama in those days.
asciilifeform: hm.. looks like i was in #b-a on oct. 6, 2012, and after, but apparently never spoke....
asciilifeform: which is itching in my head, because i have nfi how i could have ~found~ it prior to the letter from hanbot
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the dates seem off or something's amiss. i see you feb 3rd 2013
mircea_popescu: which is correcxt.
a111: Logged on 2013-02-02 19:50 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: working on it
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: feb.2 of 2013 was when asciilifeform first ~spoke~ there
mircea_popescu: what did you mean, "were there" ?
asciilifeform: i dug on my disk just now to try and recall when i ~tuned in~ and apparently it was much earlier, and i can't even recall why.
mircea_popescu: that's odd.
asciilifeform: 'there' in the sense of reading.
mircea_popescu: maybe you imported someone's log at some point ?
asciilifeform: nah it wouldn't be in that particular pile.
mircea_popescu: avid reader that you are
asciilifeform: this pile consists only of what came out of the hose.
mircea_popescu: yeah but you would have shown in chanlists which you do not.
asciilifeform: possibly tuned in and then immediately out.
mircea_popescu: as what, like a diff nick ?
mircea_popescu: then no, cuz you see, parts/joins are recorded.
asciilifeform: **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Oct 6 11:29:23 2012
asciilifeform: Oct 06 11:29:23 * Now talking on #bitcoin-assets
phf: mircea_popescu: log that you gave me, goes apr 15, may 22, aug 10th
mircea_popescu: da fuck.
mircea_popescu goes to inspect.
a111: Logged on 2016-04-02 19:14 mircea_popescu: in other news, http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/tmsr-logs-apr2012-oct2013.txt.tar.gz
mod6: POP QUIZ: How much was the first MPEx fee after the beta period?
mircea_popescu: 20 iirc
mod6: haha, i think it was ya.
asciilifeform: oh hah turns out that i was wrong about when first spoke, also
asciilifeform: Oct 11 22:25:56 <asciilifeform> Please comment: "Shitcoin: a Modest Proposal." (http://www.loper-os.org/?p=988)
mircea_popescu: phf omfg you'\re right, i just made contact at first ; only started using it from august.
phf: asciilifeform: oddly enough that's not in the log. perhaps if you upload your logs i can slice them in..
mircea_popescu: yup. tis what it is.
mod6: wow, the fortunes won, and lost (looking at this old stuff...)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what chan was this in ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: #b-a
phf: asciilifeform: were you on bouncer from the beginning?
mircea_popescu: Oct 17 22:08:30 <asciilifeform> nubbins`: shitcoin was a crackpot proposal of mine (http://www.loper-os.org/?p=988). << this is 2013.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in what year was 'Oct 06 11:33:00 <PeterLambert> I guess there is no need for glbse trading funds without a glbse' on your machine ?
phf: asciilifeform: what's your timestamp for "There's no drama like Bitcoin drama." ?
asciilifeform: Oct 11 15:48:50 <mircea_popescu> There's no drama like Bitcoin drama. The "will pirate make contact" storyline returns tomorrow and the new season of "will BFL deliver" starts in a couple of weeks. It's like reality TV without the ads. Which well-known Bitcoin business will suddenly fail next? Who should be voted off the libertarian island?
asciilifeform: so apparently there i was
mircea_popescu: 48:51 here.
mircea_popescu: but i have no record of said modest proposal.
phf: ah so there's a break on oct 12 from 04:56 to 15:08 which falls under
a111: Logged on 2012-08-11 03:55 BTC-Mining: I lost 40 BTC due to a typo
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i wrote the article on oct 11 2012. so this makes sense
mod6: oh man, this stuff is gold
asciilifeform: but how the hell did i wander into #b-a, i still cannot remember.
mircea_popescu: mod6 remember that time someone put a mega sdice order in and flooded the book ?
mircea_popescu: confirmed, there's a hole in my log for the 12th. asciilifeform apparently you didn't merely meander in, but managed to do it when i was off.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> mod6 remember that time someone put a mega sdice order in and flooded the book ? << Oh yeah, Sir. I'm still doing a O_O from that.
mircea_popescu: was like 10k btc worth or some similar insanity.
mod6: for sure. it was unreal. i did like a quadruple take.
mod6: <+asciilifeform> but how the hell did i wander into #b-a, i still cannot remember. << you were invited to checkout MPEx right?
asciilifeform: fwiw i definitely wasn't fully 'tuned in' until after the mpex review thing
asciilifeform: at the time i was doing a great deal of passive lurking, trying to draw a picture that might lead to the shangri-la where the smart folx live
mod6: yeah, i feel like you came in, talked for a few weeks, checked it out... then vanished again for a while. then you were here.
mircea_popescu: there's an easy mistake to make here where we look at the past and presume it's the present. gotta recall at the time most people (myself included) did not even regard the matter as serious enough to warrant permalogging.
mircea_popescu: so it's entirely possible you were curious about bitcoin, wandered in some chan or another, never thought more of it.
mod6: yeah, im an idiot for not logging everything.
mod6: i totally didn't log anything.
mircea_popescu: mod6 force is to be deployed as it becomes evident it's useful to deploy it, not randomly everywhere.
mircea_popescu: anyway ; i dunno that it makes any sense to push this further ; otc logs, what else, we're going to do cypherpunk bbses too ?
mod6: some of that OTC stuff was totally insaneo. i remember this one particular day with pirate...
mod6: wild times
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'curious re bitcoin' since shortly before 2010, but no good notes; but for some reason did not occur to me to visit irc folx until 2012
phf: our logs must go all the way back to Aristotle
asciilifeform: ftr i found bitcoin to be a very interesting thing (after, like many other people, very narrowly failing to come up with it) but couldn't stand ~bitcoin enthusiasts~ at all, barfed immediately when saw tardstalk, and #bitcoin, and will also admit, early #b-a
mod6: yeah tardstalk was awful. the only redeeming quality there was MPOE-PR.
mod6: i still have scammer ptsd
mircea_popescu: ahahaha ok this is great. "since hyperintelligence is a real threat any entity which develops hyperintelligence would be so taken with this threat that it would be forced to spend all its time filling obscure wikis with bad fanfic to prepare the other intelligences to deal with the singularity. you know, much like that bizarre faggot."
a111: Logged on 2016-12-23 03:01 mod6: ok, so some results to the above: http://www.mod6.net/v-99994-trace2.txt
mircea_popescu: mod6 why's the hash mismatching ?
mircea_popescu: Joi Ito, who runs the MIT Media Lab, said a wonderful thing in a recent conversation with President Obama: "This may upset some of my students at MIT, but one of my concerns is that it's been a predominantly male gang of kids, mostly white, who are building the core computer science around AI, and they're more comfortable talking to computers than to human beings. A lot of them feel that if they could just make that science-f
mircea_popescu: iction, generalized AI, we wouldn't have to worry about all the messy stuff like politics and society. They think machines will just figure it all out for us."
mircea_popescu: now then, leaving aside the offensive inferiority complex women/nonwhites have towards white males : the guy has a point (mit media lab, which apparently got new leadership, a little smarter - and a little less female - being where ethereum retardation is hatched). the jwz is by now radioactive, a bunch of kids who can't subdue a girl their age, let alone a herd of adult women, want things to be about how it's ok to go around
mircea_popescu: in flipflops.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> mod6 why's the hash mismatching ? << upon checking the output hash from the pressing of asciilifeform_zap_hardcoded_seeds.vpatch, it failed. because this patch depends on asciilifeform_dnsseed_snipsnip.vpatch which was not in the flow, because it was renamed 'duck-fuck-soup.vpatch'.
mircea_popescu: mod6 oh i thought it failed before.
mircea_popescu: oh oh you moved the file rather than the seal. i see
mod6: yah, so, in this: a->b->c->d ; I basically just got rid of 'c', and then tried to press a->b->d (all signed by x) and it does fail. was this what we were trying to achieve? If not, i'll do another test np.
mircea_popescu: yeah, try again i say, but leave the vpatch rename the seal just.
mod6: aha, ok. will do. if i'd venture a guess, we'll see the exact same result.
mod6: let's see :]
mircea_popescu: then that'd be it.
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/AE6059BDD7FE61498088A210017B6C8C64175A61EA7E69D7B6EC99B5E54F9603 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1484...6717 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '126.96.36.199 (ssh-rsa key from 188.8.131.52 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (secure4.edt02.net. FR)
mircea_popescu: anyway, idlewords guy is pretty much spot on as to how exactly silicon valley / "vc" etc world goes away. "Ray Kurzweil, who believes he will never die, has been a Google employee for several years now and is presumably working on that problem. There are a lot of people in Silicon Valley working on truly crazy projects under the cover of money." this is pretty much it, the byzantines found their way towards byzantinism, will
mircea_popescu: "intellectual property" all the way to the bottom.
mircea_popescu: (failure in resource allocation went from simple "tin women" to - google, or for that matter mit, can't figure out who to hire anymore.)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/294C0DC51A456CD1069D56E7B298CC2FDA9D8CF641980590454BE9B6C7F8051C << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1397...8359 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '184.108.40.206 (ssh-rsa key from 220.127.116.11 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown HK)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is quite like saying catholic church has nfi who to hire.
mircea_popescu: it's how it failed.
mod6: same outcome.
asciilifeform: google et al are not commercial orgs in the usual sense, and haven't been for years, they are religious institutions
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform economy is not optional.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: priests can stay fat for so long as there is fat to harvest. for so long as ~other~ people economize.
mircea_popescu: getting "other people" to work for you is the exact above problem.
mircea_popescu: you have this much sticky and have to pick who "other people" to stick.
asciilifeform: mod6: problem
asciilifeform: mod6: grep for 'fuzz'
asciilifeform: that should NOT be there
asciilifeform: look at how my vtron invoked 'patch'
mod6: well, i suspect that this is a different problem really.
mod6: and yours doesn't check the output hash.
asciilifeform: correct, it did not, it instead invoked patch with zero fuzz
asciilifeform: (in case it isn't obvious, this was dangerous, and i did warn folks)
asciilifeform: mod6: and yes, your hash checker apparently broke, if the fuzz thing was able to come into play
asciilifeform: (presumably you omitted disabling fuzz because you had, in theory, the hash antecedent check. but why not 'belt and suspenders')
mod6: disable fuzz via patch flag?
phf: -F 0
mod6: anyway, ok ok ok.
mod6: no worries, fixing this requires some other changes. will go back to drawing board.
asciilifeform: fuzz is this horror where gnu patch tries to hammer square stick into round hole by default
asciilifeform: because, somewhere, monkeys are more concerned with 'appeared to work' than with 'correct output', or so author imagined
asciilifeform: i am still waiting for something like a logical argument for why patch fuzz existed.
mod6: so you think that if i just use '-F 0' then this problem is hypothetically resolved?
asciilifeform: mod6: it will at least die correctly
mod6: because, mind you, it is ~still~ trying to press asciilifeform_zap_hardcoded_seeds.vpatch, and whatever it shits out from this, if it does not match the expected output hash, will then die yes.
asciilifeform: (we already learned that your antecedent checker failed, but now gotta find out why)
mod6: we did?!
asciilifeform: or patch would not have tried to fuzz at all
asciilifeform: and the output would have been the expected one
mod6: im confused
asciilifeform: see where it goes with -F 0
mod6: i dunno, lemme try putting in the anti-fuzz thing
asciilifeform: mod6: look here: asciilifeform_zap_hardcoded_seeds.vpatch should have been orphaned in your flow
asciilifeform: when you zapped the sig for asciilifeform_dnsseed_snipsnip.vpatch
asciilifeform: the flow is wrong
asciilifeform: though mod6 probably knew this already.
mod6: yes, flow is wrong because 'asciilifeform_dnsseed_snipsnip.vpatch' is missing.
asciilifeform: you gotta recurse
asciilifeform: patch for whom antecedent does not exist, gets ignored
asciilifeform: ad infinitum
mod6: mine has another arrow going to dns_thermonyukyoolar_kleansing
phf: there's no "correct" with v graphs, and every two months or so i spent some time meditating on what a v graph even is
asciilifeform: of course there is
asciilifeform: somebody has buggy vtron.
asciilifeform: is the only way the graphs can differ.
mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6: look here: asciilifeform_zap_hardcoded_seeds.vpatch should have been orphaned in your flow << i think it actually is, quite: when I have the sig for dnsseed moved to duck-fuck-soup, and i check the ante and desc for zap_hardcoded:http://dpaste.com/2QCN3Y4.txt
mod6: which says to me, that it was orphand off from dnsseed
asciilifeform: mod6: think for a minute: an orhpaned patch has no descendants.
asciilifeform: must have none. it dies.
mod6: that's the same as saying : mod6@gentoo ~/sandbox-v $ ./v.pl a asciilifeform_zap_hardcoded_seeds.vpatch
mod6: that guy has been orphand, he has no parent.
asciilifeform: a vtron that displays descendants for a patch that has an antecedent hash that corresponds to no patch, or does the same for any of its apparent children, is incorrect
asciilifeform: if he is orphaned, his children also gotta die
mod6: anyway, i think my graph is correct.
mod6: phf's might correct, but his doesn't show all of the edges that mine does.
asciilifeform: this is not possible by definition, either it displays that exist, all of them, and is correct, or not all, then not.
mod6: asciilifeform: im having a hard time following you. let's try to keep this to something i can grok.
asciilifeform: aite. how do i help mod6
mod6: are you saying, in my flow, in these traces, when i remove a middle vpatch or sig, that it shouldn't show anything in the flow after the breakage even if there are vpatches with valid sigs that correspond to wot entities present?
phf: asciilifeform: i don't really have mental capacity for this conversation right now, but mod6's graph is most likely correct, because all it does is links vpatches to vpatches by their shared hashes
asciilifeform: phf: yours did something else?
mod6: or to go back to mr. p.'s example: a->b->c->d all signed by x, if i remove 'c', then the flow should read: a->b
asciilifeform: mod6: you got it
asciilifeform: mod6: if flow breaks, everything that hung below the breaking point, falls down
mod6: but this is where it gets hairy.
mod6: if we look at my graph, that really wouldn't be true.
asciilifeform: it is less hairy if you use my algo, where every single patch, when deciding if it gets into the flow, has to trace descent to a genesis, unbrokenly
asciilifeform: if it can't-- zap.
mod6: if it were correct, in my mind, i suppose, the flow would be dropping zap_hardcoded_seeds and zap_showmyip_crud.
mod6: because there are other routes everywhere else that can follow.
mod6: but those would be the only two that should drop.
mod6: not ~everything~ else.
phf: asciilifeform: mine removes some of the links where dependency is already demonstrated by other means. if you have a->b->c and a->c you can't press c without pressing b also
asciilifeform: phf: aah
mircea_popescu: pruned huh
mod6: and furthermore, i guess it doesn't make any sense to continue on at all if something is missing in the flow, because even if you could side-step where the breakage is, the vpatch down stream would actually fail to press anyway because its input hash wouldn't match the expected.
asciilifeform: mod6: it isn't 'missing', your vtron should simply disregard everything that hung below it
mod6: my v seems to do the correct thing by dying, but maybe showing the entire flow post breakage might be incorrect as well.
asciilifeform: dying is incorrect here
mod6: i think it should die. when its trying to press and it enounters something that doesn't match: death.
asciilifeform: but it wasn't pressing in this example
mod6: it would probably be better form to never have to die, but to never hit that case where we must die.
asciilifeform: it was computing flow
mod6: the same flow computation happens in both places.
asciilifeform: when you ask a vtron to press, it has to be for something that is in the flow
asciilifeform: computing flow must never fail
asciilifeform: when you, say, remove someone from your wot,