verisimilitude: That's just a group using it, but how amusing in any case.
verisimilitude: I suppose in digital democracy, everyone's vote is more discrete, and is worth even less.
verisimilitude: Then again, the name is just stupid every which way.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-16 21:33:56 trinque: verisimilitude: some folks made a distributed udp chat app atop https://hypercore-protocol.org/
thimbronion: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-12-16#1026445 << there is an argument to be made that mining naturally *decentralizes* (at least on a certain time frame) due to the limits of available power in a geographical area.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-16 22:00:03 trinque: mining centralizes, ongoingly. treaties around mining will be made eventually, if not soon.
billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-12-16#1026433 << re: mining (de)centralization, there are at least two north american companies selling gas powered bitcoin miners to oil fields: https://www.upstreamdata.ca https://gam.ai
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-16 21:54:32 trinque: not to mention mega-draw of power, which is already reported to the govt per utility user.
billymg: re: discussion of the elite and bitcoin, has it been discussed yet that perhaps the elite decided that allowing the 0.01% of the world pop capable of getting their hands on some coin (and managing to keep it) to join their ranks was not actually such a bad thing?
billymg: with their Great Reset they seem to be more focused on flattening the 99% of the world, and ensuring they don't consume anymore than a bare subsistence-level of resources
billymg: there can't be that many people out there with > 10 btc and capable of managing their own keys to really upset the order of things, so why worry?
billymg: this could be a way for the elite to secure their continued survival by absorbing a few new members into their ranks, while spitting out a few that are no longer useful (namely those of the hapless geriatric bureaucracy)
billymg: you can see this playing out with silicon valley compensation too. anyone who can write even the shittiest code is compensated in stock options, which over a few years turns an average programmer's salary into a million+ package
billymg: but because it happens "organically" (hey, who knew stocks would inflate after all this money printing) there's less uproar than would be if HR simply added a zero to every programmer's cash salary
billymg: it's redivision of the pie as placation, and i think it could be the same calculation for bitcoin
asciilifeform: billymg: their stocks inflate, but with them, the rent. so imho 'million+ package' is not accurate description of what is happening to these.
billymg: asciilifeform: i do see cost of living increase along with the stocks, but what i witnessed was that comp package grew faster
billymg: could be due to pricing out those with packages *not* denominated in stock, which eases demand and keeps prices from rising too fast
asciilifeform: billymg: simply wait until folx are selling these stocks. we saw this movie before in orcistan.
snsabot: (trilema) 2014-05-01 asciilifeform: basic course on russian privatization. 'your formerly state-issued flat is now yours. you are a millionaire!' - 'neato. but my salary hasn't been paid in a year. gotta buy something to eat. what does dinner cost?' - 'half a million.'
asciilifeform: the programmers are paid in 'feeling rich'.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-05-05 19:39:14 asciilifeform: thimbronion: i watched ruble die as a boy. suddenly had whole sack full of'em, felt 'rich'. until a little later, when noticed it wouldn't buy even candy bar
billymg: asciilifeform: you don't think that only a relative handful of people being compensated this way, compared to the other 99% effectively getting a big pay cut year over year, will cause the former to have at least a larger share of whatever small pie?
asciilifeform: billymg: if you consider stock as a currency, it is intensely 'fractional reserve'
billymg: asciilifeform: yeah, that makes sense, the 'feeling rich' assumes too many of them don't all start selling at once
asciilifeform: if one day some substantial % of the 'stock millionaires' end up in 'bank run', to cash out to, say, escape from their sv gulag -- the value crashes. long before anything close to 100% of the panickers could be satisfied.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-09-15 14:53:22 asciilifeform: mats: i rec to evacuate before the 'lifetime california tax' thing is enacted.
asciilifeform: the lizards who 'let's pay'em in stock' know that lizard stock will always get to be sold prior to peon-held stock, in a sell-off.
asciilifeform: stock for peons worx great, however, as substitute for actual pay, reliably attracts millions of greedy halfwits to sv
billymg: asciilifeform: when comparing amzn/goog to USD i'm not sure which i'd consider the "actual pay"
billymg: i guess neither
asciilifeform: the 'actual pay' is the thing you can cover expenses with, at reasonably stable exch rate.
asciilifeform: ( in '90s ru, this might be the scrap you take home from the factory -- rather than your joke salary )
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-12-17#1026503 << this is quite far from accurate description imho of what's happening. can't speak for entire 'civilized' reich, but in usa, if you 'cash out btc', and for sumthing other than a physical mafia suitcase of benjies -- tax collectors will take 50-100% of yer 'winnings'
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-17 10:37:42 billymg: re: discussion of the elite and bitcoin, has it been discussed yet that perhaps the elite decided that allowing the 0.01% of the world pop capable of getting their hands on some coin (and managing to keep it) to join their ranks was not actually such a bad thing?
asciilifeform: Because Reasons (tm)(r)(c)
thimbronion: asciilifeform: meh long term capital gains is relatively low at the moment.
billymg: asciilifeform: even in reich, top capital gains rate (currently) is "only" 20%
asciilifeform: billymg: afaik, 'gains' applies if you can prove that you had paid for it.
asciilifeform: otherwise 'windfall' (as if you dug up treasure)
asciilifeform: and in either case, they can accuse you of having sat on it for whatever time w/out having poneyed up
asciilifeform: and take 100% + yer skin
asciilifeform: ( all of this rather orthogonal to the subj of 'when does it even make sense to trade btc for printolade, at all' )
billymg: i can't seem to find what the "windfall" tax rates are, i thought they were the same as capital gains only assuming a 0 cost basis
billymg: asciilifeform: sure, they can show up with guns and take whatever for whatever reason, not arguing that
billymg: but this costs money to do
asciilifeform: billymg: costs printola; yields hard currency.
billymg: and if you take the cyanide before they get your stash their return is 0
billymg: the way i understand it is gov collection is still done based on some calculation of overall ROI
thimbronion: asciilifeform: I'll be concerned about that when they stop auctioning it off.
billymg: which is why the "send fud letters, wait for chumps to voluntarily give it up" is the far more favorable method
asciilifeform: billymg: it is. which is why they aint doing house-to-house searches a la baghdad '03. instead, they rely on the chump himself to convert his btc from 'undocumented by usg' to 'documented with self-signed confession' by selling at e.g. coinbase in any qty.
asciilifeform: ~that~ is the moment where yer hodlings cease to be deniable from any pov.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-16 22:10:16 asciilifeform: as for the coin, the correct algo to 'hodl' is exactly same today as was in '09. i.e. your hdd has what's indistinguishable from rng output. and as for the key, maybe you once had it, but now lost in boating accident. and forgot where boated. (and if you can't stick to the story, will have to carry cyanide.)
billymg bbl clase de espanol
asciilifeform: laters.
asciilifeform: $ticker btc usd
btcinfobot: Current BTC price in USD: $23344.82
asciilifeform: !w poll
watchglass: Polling 16 nodes...
watchglass: 205.134.172.26:8333 : Alive: (0.083s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=661669
watchglass: 205.134.172.27:8333 : Alive: (0.086s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=661764 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 54.39.156.171:8333 : (ns562940.ip-54-39-156.net) Alive: (0.052s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=661764
watchglass: 205.134.172.6:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.082s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=661708
watchglass: 71.114.46.209:8333 : (pool-71-114-46-209.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.099s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=661764 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 205.134.172.4:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.155s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=661764
watchglass: 192.151.158.26:8333 : Alive: (0.145s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=661764
watchglass: 205.134.172.28:8333 : Alive: (0.084s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=661595 (Operator: whaack)
watchglass: 208.94.240.42:8333 : Alive: (0.146s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=661764
watchglass: 143.202.160.10:8333 : Alive: (0.237s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=661764
watchglass: 176.9.59.199:8333 : (static.199.59.9.176.clients.your-server.de) Alive: (0.218s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=391683 (Operator: jurov)
watchglass: 213.109.238.156:8333 : Alive: (0.323s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=661660
watchglass: 185.85.38.54:8333 : (tlapnet-38-54.cust.tlapnet.cz) Alive: (0.291s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=661764
watchglass: 84.16.46.130:8333 : Violated BTC Protocol: Bad header length!
asciilifeform: mats: wasn't this the lolpgptron that actually imported 'mirrored' phuctor mods w/out warnings/eggogs ?
mats: i dont recall that
asciilifeform: mats: can you point to what in the pressrelease found interesting ?
mats: the 'openpgp ca' tooling sounds interesting
mats: smtp proxy also
asciilifeform: mats: what's appealing about these? 'ca' under any sauce is masterkeyism; smtp proxy encourages lusers to pump plaintext via net..
mats: well this looks a little different from tls ca, from the high level overview it appears you can generate your own CA key
billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-12-17#1026535 << mere "sitting on" doesn't require any tribute that i know of, at least at the moment (though this is surely next)
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-17 11:08:51 asciilifeform: and in either case, they can accuse you of having sat on it for whatever time w/out having poneyed up
mats: and it looks like users generate their keys locally and send it to the CA, rather than the CA generating privkeys
asciilifeform: mats: it aint clear what is gained (other than 'ca can sign $arbitrarykey and declare it 'yours' if it decides to whenever') from appointing some key endorser as a 'ca'
asciilifeform: pki is usgtronic ~intrinsically~, rather than as some kinda bug. it is conceptually rotten, and presented specifically in opposition to sane wot.
asciilifeform: billymg: i've seen photos of recent usg forms where asks you to 'declare' btc. however ianal and don't have links handy, so take w/ grain of salt.
billymg: asciilifeform: ah, right
billymg: from the tax filing forms, a yes/no "have you held/bought/sold digital currency at all in prior year"
asciilifeform: 'Sequoia implements most of RFC 4880. But, it is still missing a few features. In particular, we don’t yet support cleartext signatures. ' << lol!
asciilifeform: apparently this shitware dun even implement the koch 1.4.10 featureset.
asciilifeform: apparently my bash script in fact supports features that 'sequoia' does not!
mats: heh
asciilifeform: billymg: again ianal, but can picture, e.g. 'hah, so you sold a coin. but it hadn't moved since '10. and didja declare that 'held' ? no. that'll be a fine, 2e6$ plz by next tuesday.'
mats: whats gained is that some people could have a deedbot that secures their emails
billymg: asciilifeform: sure
mats: and someone trusted in the org would act as ca
asciilifeform: mats: do you recall the ~previous~ 'friendly email client that secures' for lusers ?
mats: its not an email client though
asciilifeform: worse even, is proxy that eats plaintext via lan (and in egregious cases, i expect, plaintext net)
mats: obviously theres some problems here, at one point in their docs they describe using openpgp.js whatever that is
asciilifeform: aa THAT was the 'eat w/out sanity check' item !
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-17 12:09:42 asciilifeform: mats: wasn't this the lolpgptron that actually imported 'mirrored' phuctor mods w/out warnings/eggogs ?
asciilifeform: 'openpgp.js'.
billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-12-17#1026504 << my point here was that on the other side of the equation some more of the pie is being freed up. elites can keep their same share (and even gain some) while still giving a little extra to those who adopted bitcoin
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-17 10:38:02 billymg: with their Great Reset they seem to be more focused on flattening the 99% of the world, and ensuring they don't consume anymore than a bare subsistence-level of resources
mats: i'm just thinking it would be nice if there was a substitute for ad and kerberos
asciilifeform: mats: where is this, where the q 'if only there were a substitute for kerberos' actually comes up ?
billymg: could just be wishful thinking on my part but i do think it has some advantages for them. they avoid the mess of having to go door-to-door and they placate a small but potentially adversarial part of the population
asciilifeform: billymg: i can't readily think of any historical precedents where elite gave something up willingly.
billymg: i'm not saying it is necessarily "willingly", but it might be the option that makes the most sense form cost/benefit pov
billymg: from*
billymg: in that sense, unwillingly
verisimilitude: Having almost all of the money doesn't make any of them intelligent, billymg.
asciilifeform wouldn't argue that it ~could not~ make sense thusly, but doubts that vampires are capable of carrying out such a calculation correctly.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-16 22:22:32 asciilifeform: so in point of fact, vampires rather frequently kill vampires.
asciilifeform: mats: imho concept of 'ca', regardless of how implemented, is intrinsically evil. because it dilutes the individual's otherwise absolute ownership of his key.
asciilifeform: mats: observe that already nothing keeps e.g. mats from signing asciilifeform's pubkey, and vice-versa. w/out any need to designate one or the other as 'authority'
mats: i'm trying to imagine a system where pgp is the basis for auth in a 100man biz
asciilifeform: mats: depends what means 'auth', neh. if 1 boss and 99 galley slaves, very simple -- they get his pubkey w/ their 1st paystub, and henceforth very easily can authenticate any order purporting to come from the boss.
asciilifeform: ( laugh, but just in usa, forged invoices are a multi-$B racket. and 100% curable via above, in principle. )
asciilifeform: see also ru '90s example of same.
snsabot: (trilema) 2015-12-27 asciilifeform: using very elementary fakes of 'aviso' (bank transfer)
verisimilitude: I'm loathe to mention it, but Google has supposedly had good success at avoiding having employee credentials stolen, because it gives its employees digital keys which should only properly respond to Google.
verisimilitude: I read this in an article concerning fake logins targeting individual employees and whatnot.
trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-12-17#1026589 << why in the fuck would anyone do anything as amateur as lying to the IRS on their own forms?
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-17 12:53:37 asciilifeform: billymg: again ianal, but can picture, e.g. 'hah, so you sold a coin. but it hadn't moved since '10. and didja declare that 'held' ? no. that'll be a fine, 2e6$ plz by next tuesday.'
trinque: how honorable, his suicide, said who, to whom?
trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-12-17#1026501 << the thread was around whether pirate miners could ever represent >50% of mining power, to which I say nonsense.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-17 10:36:49 billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-12-16#1026433 << re: mining (de)centralization, there are at least two north american companies selling gas powered bitcoin miners to oil fields: https://www.upstreamdata.ca https://gam.ai
trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-12-17#1026503 << who is this coherent group of people which together decided? I don't imagine such a thing exists.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-17 10:37:42 billymg: re: discussion of the elite and bitcoin, has it been discussed yet that perhaps the elite decided that allowing the 0.01% of the world pop capable of getting their hands on some coin (and managing to keep it) to join their ranks was not actually such a bad thing?
trinque: I imagine instead that wealthy people buy things which they anticipate will be more valuable in the future, or they don't stay wealthy
trinque: and yes, anyone who "joins their ranks" will be pissing on those left behind, as is the tradition for all life
trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-12-17#1026505 << I'm curious what upset you think would happen if there were.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-17 10:38:27 billymg: there can't be that many people out there with > 10 btc and capable of managing their own keys to really upset the order of things, so why worry?
trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-12-17#1026506 << this is what all life does, yet for the revolution it stays right in place, as it must or it wouldn't be here.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-17 10:38:45 billymg: this could be a way for the elite to secure their continued survival by absorbing a few new members into their ranks, while spitting out a few that are no longer useful (namely those of the hapless geriatric bureaucracy)
trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-12-17#1026510 << nonsense, inflation is unevenly distributed. and notice, californistan is dying and texas booming, with plenty of room to expand housing.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-17 10:51:29 asciilifeform: billymg: their stocks inflate, but with them, the rent. so imho 'million+ package' is not accurate description of what is happening to these.
trinque: if anything there's a disproportionate amount of welfare being doled out to the techbros
trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-12-17#1026515 << certainly in some sense there are *no* rich in "modernity", can't deny.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-17 10:57:12 asciilifeform: the programmers are paid in 'feeling rich'.
trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-12-17#1026523 << this machine is running in reverse already. been to sv recently? the decay is plain.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-17 11:01:54 asciilifeform: stock for peons worx great, however, as substitute for actual pay, reliably attracts millions of greedy halfwits to sv
asciilifeform: ohai wb trinque
trinque: good afternoon asciilifeform
trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-12-17#1026524 << the correct answer is to roll w/e chumpatronium into harder assetst immediately
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-17 11:03:51 billymg: asciilifeform: when comparing amzn/goog to USD i'm not sure which i'd consider the "actual pay"
trinque: *assets
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-12-17#1026621 << i cannot resist to ask, to continue w/ the gedankenexperiment from last night ( and not necessary to answer, if would rather not, obv ) -- if they ask you to also declare 'how many rounds of 7.62, and how many gold bars buried in the forest, and please list gps coords' will also answer ?
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-17 15:07:37 trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-12-17#1026589 << why in the fuck would anyone do anything as amateur as lying to the IRS on their own forms?
trinque: the question is always "what is a winnable fight"
asciilifeform: say this yr they ask 'do you hodl'. next 'please list addrs'. and 2022 -- list privkeys.. will list ?
trinque: recall the proud tradition of the once republic to "sit on the traffic cone just so"
trinque: none of that.
asciilifeform: trinque: would be 'unwinnable' if they had telepaths in fbi hq reading 400e6 heads. otherwise, not so clear cut
trinque: noteworth to me is that despite the soviet collapse, many of the old soviet faces and structures remained in power.
trinque: eh, fuck this keyboard, grrr
verisimilitude: Say, asciilifeform, I was wasting time reading Hacker News and saw someone mention thee and thy work: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25458080
trinque: sensible thing *right now* is to declare and pay tax on sales, but why would anyone sell
asciilifeform: trinque: notably, 1 of the 1st things to collapse was enforcement of whatever tax collections, and rules governing biz in general
trinque: later, if things change, who knows what I'll do
trinque: depends on what changes
trinque: asciilifeform: that would seem a halfway sane time to re-evaluate relationship to said rules
asciilifeform: trinque: keep in mind that will be difficult to 'unconfess' what's been confessed. sorta like the folx who were jailed by preet b. the ones who signed -- still sitting. the rest -- walked
trinque: confess what. it's public fact I have bitcoin.
trinque: you do realize we're on IRC, and that we're a long way from mathematical proofs being involved in legal arguments?
asciilifeform: trinque: is only so if you say. could just as readily say 'lost at sea.' and whether torturer believes or not, is not under your control. (you could lose at sea genuinely, and still end up impaled, not believed.)
verisimilitude: I've no bitcoins, unfortunately, but the best way to cope with this situation for now is simple apathy.
trinque: yeah this is a sense of honor I do not have. "torturer doesn't know!"
trinque: sounds like a russian thing :p
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: whole pt of bitcoin is that when you're on the rack, ought to be no way to demonstrate whether you have any. if on acct of some technical flaw of bitcoin (or your particular setup) this is impractical, imho one ought not to use bitcoin at all.
asciilifeform: (and in fact then poor form to even associate w/ users..)
trinque: really I see the exact opposite. as soon as an address is attributed, bitcoin is a totalitarian dream.
verisimilitude: I thought the whole point of Bitcoin was decentralized currency, not anything resembling anonymity.
asciilifeform: trinque: that'd require attributing all subseq. addrs, neh.
asciilifeform: a sends to b1, b2, ... bn. to whom belong b1..bn ? could be owner of a, could be putin, etc
trinque: it depends on the outcome of the "is mining centralizing" thread
trinque: listen, I've got no love for the empire, but bitcoin didn't solve it.
asciilifeform: trinque: it 'worx if you work it' strictly. otherwise is backwards-firing pistol.
asciilifeform: trinque: re centralized mining -- even supposing the cartel as contemplated in '16 exists as-pictured -- seems to be in its interest to behave as if did not exist. (otherwise exch goes to ~0 and exercise becomes ~pointless, and zuckerbrin hires blackwater to kill whatever suspected culprits)
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-12-17#1026624 << if 'pirate' here refers to 'not a dc w/ petahash+ under 1 roof' -- it is currently difficult to picture 'cable boxes fleet' beating a dc. but if 'mines' routinely end up torched/confiscated/etc., then entirely plausible. esp. given as builder of 'cable box' pays 0 for mains current or guard labour.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-17 15:14:14 trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-12-17#1026501 << the thread was around whether pirate miners could ever represent >50% of mining power, to which I say nonsense.
asciilifeform brb,tea
verisimilitude: What manner of tea is it, asciilifeform; I'll be trying some yaupon tea for the first time, today.
trinque: asciilifeform: the DCs aren't going away. they're not going to be banned.
trinque: they're going to consolidate as all commodities with shitty margins do.
trinque: and these, being valuable, and few, will be easy to control.
asciilifeform: trinque: iirc there were tears already being cried coupla yrs ago re this in particular happening in cn. but for some peculiar reason not had macroscopic (i.e. visible from asciilifeform's chair) effects, of yet.
asciilifeform: trinque: my hypothesis -- uninformed by more or less anyffin else -- is just about same as mp's from the period -- the folx who were 'supposed to be' wrecking bitcoin, instead went & bought up, and then malingering & slacking 'on the job' of wrecking.
asciilifeform: a la carl force et al
trinque: still sorta talking at cross-purposes here.
asciilifeform: trinque: i'ma have to disagree , at least in principle, re dcs. unlike au or diamond etc mine, there is no hard constraint forcing the thing to inhabit a clearly delineated place. so long as you can get coupla kB/s to the 'cable boxes' , is in fact considerably superior to traditional mine -- no need to power it or guard it.
asciilifeform: note that the decentralized mines can be cartel-controlled (or not) , the physical form has no bearing on this
asciilifeform: trinque: cross purpose where ?
trinque: my claim was not that the FBI, all powerful, will end bitcoin.
asciilifeform: trinque: as i understood, yer hypothesis was simply 'heat will be turned up' at some indefinite pt
trinque: it's "whoever is empowered by bitcoin will just go strengthen the existing totalitarian machine for himself"
trinque: nope.
trinque: carl force wasn't an aberation in the long proud tradition, recall
trinque: the thing was always a gang.
asciilifeform: trinque: is this hypothesis falsifiable ?
asciilifeform: i suppose oughta ask moar concretely. it's been 11y. and thing still worx, from my pov, more or less as designed. at what point can say 'falsified hypothesis re totalitarian degringolade' ? another 11y of in-spec operation? 50y ?
asciilifeform: do i misunderstand ?
trinque: I suspect there's a lot packed into that "worx"
asciilifeform: hence why specified 'from my pov'
trinque: I am taking the author's at least implied intent to blow up the banks, and saying this will not happen.
asciilifeform: from e.g. miner's pov, obv. not 'same as in '09' but would have to be an innumerate to have been surprised by this development, neh
asciilifeform: trinque: can't disagree, banks will survive with cockroaches and cancer, ww3, ww4, ww_n
trinque: then the political claim I'm making is that the empire emanates from them, and not hillary or whomever
asciilifeform: trinque: in sovok bank was muchly an accessory of the empire, like post office, rather than prime mover. and difficult for asciilifeform to see the current sovok in different light, seems to resemble exactly the previous one in this respect.
asciilifeform: ( re 'does bitcoin intrinsically fail in totalitarian direction' -- asciilifeform's pov summarized earlier. at 1 pt was strongly inclined to 'yes', but how to explain the 11y ? )
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-16 22:19:12 asciilifeform: whole point, imho, of bitcoin, is to remove element of 'what might bureaucrats decide tomorrow' from the game board.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-16 22:19:35 asciilifeform: if fails at this -- it is a failed experiment. and the folx left alive, ought to try something ~else~.
trinque: suppose we'll have to see how the darkening proceeds.
trinque: would you agree that political power means owning and wielding the things of greatest utility?
trinque: and not "I have the most notional value in $database" ?
asciilifeform: not 'things', but people.
trinque: had them in the things category but yes.
asciilifeform: people (depending on quality) can convert into other goodies.
trinque: asking another way, who's in power in Russia today and why?
trinque: it's not even a leading question; I wasn't there.
asciilifeform: (in e.g. jp ~0 iron, but was not a problem for 'greater asian coprosperity sphere' 1930-45)
trinque: but I'd expect that new boss was muchly the old boss, and don't know why my arse would be lucky enough to have otherwise.
asciilifeform: trinque: soros.
trinque: hm, that is unexpected. you're serious?
asciilifeform: aha.
asciilifeform: fwiw: e.g. putin was shipping sovok-produced pu to usa for ~0$ until... 2014.
asciilifeform: reigns at the pleasure of the octopus. and carries out 'measured' amt of 'boat-rocking' (e.g. repossession of crimea) to conform to role. much as e.g. trump made various noises to conform to his.
asciilifeform: now obv. this is not an assertion i can back with hard proof. but imho no observable fact contradicts it.
asciilifeform: putin's long-running and quite elaborate -- to the point of 'lady doth protest too much' -- 'desorosization' -- sealed it for me.
trinque: if so, I'd just ask why bitcoin's going to dissolve soros, if he's capable of such.
trinque: if not, snore.
asciilifeform: trinque: did your interest ('09?) in subj stem specifically from a theorized 'will perhaps dissolve soros' ?
asciilifeform: ( this imho is orthogonal to the q of whether it does dissolve or at least corrode soroses. imho -- does. if soros has to actually steal dough instead of merely printing it, his work is more complicated than pre-09 any way one cuts it )
asciilifeform ftr does not expect magical techno-pill 'against soroses', bitcoin or otherwise, to be effective alone. imho is lunacy to expect even universal pill against cockroaches, much less soroses.
asciilifeform: re upstack , imho important q for any participant to answer ~for himself~, 'does bitcoin work? what does it mean for it to work?' (see also e.g.)
snsabot: Logged on 2020-05-15 11:21:52 asciilifeform: lru: it also helps to pin down exactly what means 'failed' .
snsabot: Logged on 2020-05-15 22:15:23 asciilifeform: bitcoin remains a thing because it sorta, partially, solved ~some~ of the problems ('who gets to decide what is a coin?' 'who gets to decide when counts as 'spent' ?' 'what is incentive for participating?') none of the supposedly-competing items proposed any meaningfully different working solutions ( plenty of braindamaged ones tho )
asciilifeform bbl,meat
trinque: definitely my interest was in sorosolvent.
trinque: and in crypto, the improvement of secrets, and not painting a target on back ever-more-effectively.
trinque: but we'll see; I'll happily be wrong if it turns out otherwise.
trinque afk
asciilifeform pictures having 2nd ed. of this convo in 2030, 'right, no usg blacklist enforced yet, but see, by 2040, treaties b/w miners...'
asciilifeform: it aint even that asciilifeform can concretely disprove. hell, the christians are still today waiting for ~their~ eschaton. who can disprove that won't come next week.
asciilifeform notwithstanding the gnarliness of determining what exactly btc-usd exch rate means , does believe it to correspond at least roughly to 'not failing' in the sense contemplated in this thrd.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-05-05 19:59:44 asciilifeform: as a rule, they're entirely happy to buy promisecoin, so can 'leverage' and 'play'.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-05-15 22:50:26 asciilifeform: observe that , presently, 1 btc is ~10,000x moar valuable than 1 u.s. $ . it isn't entirely accidental .
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-17 15:30:44 verisimilitude: Say, asciilifeform, I was wasting time reading Hacker News and saw someone mention thee and thy work: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25458080
asciilifeform: 'opensores' w/out fits-in-head is a demented concept of 'freedom'. like yer 'freedom' to jet fart through your arse and fly across atlantic. ('no one glued you to the ground! you have this freedom!')
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-12-17#1026738 << would seem to me that the crypto per se worx sufficiently; while the target-painting is done 100% voluntarily, by folx who still somehow think that 'being law-abiding' will delay their trip to fdrschwitz or at least give'em a berth on a better barrack there
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-17 16:48:00 trinque: and in crypto, the improvement of secrets, and not painting a target on back ever-more-effectively.
billymg: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-12-17#1026626 << presumably the same who will decide whether to bludgeon us with the war machine or implement the FDR scenario
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-17 15:15:56 trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-12-17#1026503 << who is this coherent group of people which together decided? I don't imagine such a thing exists.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-11-26 00:52:56 trinque: ftr I fully expect the state to bludgeon us all with the war machine well before it surrenders to anything.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-16 21:26:45 trinque: this is entirely about the creeping FDR scenario for btc.
asciilifeform: billymg: do you have own cosmography re why to wait 11y (and counting) to 'bludgeon them all with war machine' ?
asciilifeform: ( and/or 'fdr scenario' )
billymg: asciilifeform: was simply quoting trinque's words in that case
asciilifeform: ... and in this cosmography, what exactly bludgeoning consists of ? say, public impalement of btc users, and 1e6$ reward for turning one in ?
asciilifeform: so then why 2020, and not e.g. 2015 ? and will they start w/ zuckerbrin , mp, trinque , or asciilifeform ?
asciilifeform: ( if 'with zuckerbrin' -- who is this 'they' who will start with him , that exist separately from him ? )
billymg: the hypothesis i was trying to lay out earlier is that anyone successfully securing some coin has already been inaugurated into their ranks
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-17 10:38:45 billymg: this could be a way for the elite to secure their continued survival by absorbing a few new members into their ranks, while spitting out a few that are no longer useful (namely those of the hapless geriatric bureaucracy)
asciilifeform: billymg: this imho also heavily exaggeration. e.g. the 10btc you gave as example, aint 'pass into elite' even at a 1e6$/per exch rate.
billymg: asciilifeform: may have been off my some orders of magnitude
billymg: but point was more that to the even fewer few who do have what qualifies: congratulations, you're one of us now
asciilifeform: billymg: i disagree that it's a numeric problem, even necessarily. say, martians land, and leave you 25 tonnes of refined pu as a parting gift. you will 'pass into elite' ? or perhaps not ? what do you suppose would happen ?
billymg: asciilifeform: i see your point, and do agree "peasant can't have rembrandt", but holding bitcoin for decade+ without losing is a tad more than luck, no?
billymg: asciilifeform: to say nothing of fact that killing you would certainly yield the 25 tonnes of refined pu but may cause the btc to become locked forever
asciilifeform: i dunno how much 'luck' needed, i have material today that i saved in '90s w/own hands , and older folx -- older still
billymg: my theory is that the lizard men of the last century need someone to pass the torch to, and it's getting passed to tech bros via unevenly distributed inflation and bitcoin
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-17 15:23:29 trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-12-17#1026510 << nonsense, inflation is unevenly distributed. and notice, californistan is dying and texas booming, with plenty of room to expand housing.
billymg: someone has to marry their daughters after all
asciilifeform: ( see also oblig vermeer thread from '15 )
snsabot: (trilema) 2015-08-22 asciilifeform: here is a 'fun experiment' - get caught somewhere in a 'civilized' country with a trunk full of gold bar
billymg: asciilifeform: right, the point about about need to be in the wot to own anything of value
billymg: if you're not in the wot how can you make any claims to ownership in the first place
billymg: it's something i think about on a personal level but haven't figured out the answer to yet
asciilifeform: billymg: from my pov ~100% of what makes bitcoin interesting, is ~specifically~ the found key? keep car. aspect. where possession is not '9/10th of the law' but 10/10ths.
snsabot: (trilema) 2015-08-22 asciilifeform: sorta like if a pauper finds a ring of keys - he doesn't get to own the house and car.
billymg: asciilifeform: to me too, yes
asciilifeform: billymg: seems to me that to the extent the objective of 'make sure the same people control btc as controlled vermeers' was even posed, it was solved -- and via the low-tech and uninvasive way of simply buying. the way zuckerbrin/mp/et al bought.
asciilifeform: step 2 of the algo was, likely, 'now dump it and use proceeds to prop up gavinisms' etc. -- but participants could not agree to proceed to step2. a little unsurprisingly.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-17 16:06:13 asciilifeform: trinque: my hypothesis -- uninformed by more or less anyffin else -- is just about same as mp's from the period -- the folx who were 'supposed to be' wrecking bitcoin, instead went & bought up, and then malingering & slacking 'on the job' of wrecking.
billymg: asciilifeform: in this scenario, does it matter to you if zuckerbrin/mp/et al control so long as original promise (found key? keep car) remains intact?
asciilifeform: billymg: depends what means 'control'.
billymg: can't stop asciilifeform from holding/receiving/sending whatever/whenever, 21 million remains 21 million, etc.
billymg: sorry, as in, can't alter those properties
billymg: but controls in sense of, i guess, has the most?
billymg: can manipulate exchange rate to some degree
asciilifeform: their original, in my cosmography, objective, was to defend printoladism by making sure btc not only fails but craters in such a way as to be remembered for 1000y
snsabot: (trilema) 2017-03-14 asciilifeform: and 'dead bitcoin', esp. if it dies on enemy's terms, would imho be a technogenic catastrophe, quite comparable to, e.g., chernobyl. ( not for mircea_popescu 'i'm rich anyway, fuck everyone' , and not for other folx, who might not even have any; but for the concept of 'gold sans the guard labour')
asciilifeform: billymg: ~somebody~ gotta 'have the most'. or do i misunderstand the q ?
billymg: asciilifeform: i was sort of correcting myself mid thought, as what i laid out in the previous lines didn't sound much like 'control' at all
billymg: i agree it depends on definition of "control"
billymg: if control like fed controls usd, then i have no interest in it
asciilifeform: there's various traditional defs of 'control' -- 'can carry out 51% attacks' ; 'can dump sufficient qty to crash exch rates for yrs'; 'can persuade 1e7 lamers to use $fork instead of bitcoin' (questionable that this is even interesting). none of the items in this list have been getting easier to achieve as time goes
asciilifeform: quite opposite.
billymg: asciilifeform: out of those, yeah, none seem to be quite as threatening now as they theoretically seemed to be back in e.g. 2014. if that is all that is meant by "control" then i could live with it
asciilifeform: billymg: if it at any point even makes sense to discuss 'the fed of bitcoin' -- in any other light than you might discuss 'a 2 that is also a 3' -- the algo was broken. (and was always broken, then.)
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-16 22:19:35 asciilifeform: if fails at this -- it is a failed experiment. and the folx left alive, ought to try something ~else~.
asciilifeform: billymg: one unfortunate fact, is that it is impossible to prove a lack of control in the sense contemplated.
snsabot: (trilema) 2016-10-20 asciilifeform: trinque: see thread. mining is not provably costing all of the participants anything.
billymg: asciilifeform: that's a good clarification. what i had in mind re: 'zuckerbrin can control supply cap' falls more in the category of 'can persuade 1e7 lamers to use $fork instead of bitcoin' than 'break bitcoin as it exists as software'
asciilifeform: someone may in fact have 'pill for sha2' or effective equiv.
asciilifeform: or pill for ecdsa, for that matter.
asciilifeform: billymg: you may recall how the '16-present forkwarz went.
asciilifeform: (most of the forks -- still in some sense exist... )
billymg: asciilifeform: very familiar, yes, it's what originally brought be to trilema in the first place
billymg: me*
asciilifeform: they're imho quite irrelevant to the discussion of 'does bitcoin work'. they affect bitcoin to approx. same extent as zimbabwe dollar affects u.s. dollar.
billymg: i now see those as more shit tests, similar to fud letters sent out by three letter agencies
billymg: i.e. let's collect as much as we can from behind our terminals before we start expending real resources on collecting
asciilifeform: billymg: it aint even that lizards are averse to e.g. spending 1e6 usd to kidnap operator of 'btc-e' and steal his 1e5 btc. this is +ev. but spreading fud is ~free, and panickers will 'voluntarily' turn selves/others in. rather like in 'gun amnesties' in various countries.
billymg: asciilifeform: makes sense
billymg: asciilifeform: and as the exchange rate shifts the threshold for +ev gets lower, which i think has something to do with this thread coming up again today
asciilifeform: billymg: it aint even clear to me why suddenly 'coming up'. given (as billymg already noted) -- btc has been stagnating; merely usd has been falling.
asciilifeform: today's 23k usd buy considerably less of (almost anything) than last winter's 7k did.
asciilifeform: this is not a 'win of btc'.
billymg: asciilifeform: and as much as i'm aware of that it still feels like more "attention"
trinque: hell, enjoying the lively thread.
trinque: brb, starting from where I parted.
asciilifeform: wb trinque . no hurry.
trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-12-17#1026741 << the notion is not that something calling itself or not calling itself usg will continue to pantsuit in 2030, but that the bank-emanated s imperialism will happily reimplement itself in bitcoin.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-17 17:44:58 asciilifeform: pictures having 2nd ed. of this convo in 2030, 'right, no usg blacklist enforced yet, but see, by 2040, treaties b/w miners...'
trinque: damn terminal had a fit
trinque: the reason these will migrate to btc is that btc does not defend against them. 1) centralized approval of transactions 2) public ledger.
asciilifeform: trinque: do i misunderstand, or is your position 'algo is broken and cartelization inevitably will lead to paypalization' ?
trinque: mp often and and at length objected to making ratings opposable. how exactly does my every transaction being opposable to me work to my advantage?
trinque: asciilifeform: no, exactly that.
asciilifeform: trinque: let's postulate that it is. now, why in 11y (and counting..) not yet paypalized ?
asciilifeform: what's the obstacle ? efforts in the direction certainly started no later than '15
trinque: it depends on one's definitions, so I'll start there
trinque: *arguably* the net's still wide open for p2p warez networks
asciilifeform: and certainly 'permissioned' shitcoins were built, and some still (in a sense) functioning. they exchange at 'penny stocks' prices. positing that some group is in the position to transform bitcoin into 1 of these, why not yet done ? (and what's to keep the 'victims' from changing the workfunction and 'running away' ? )
trinque: but there was certainly a high-water mark for p2p nets sometime in very early 2000s.
trinque: folks moved from those to hosted spotify/apple/whatever after largely performative prosecutions / show trials.
trinque: it didn't take much.
trinque: I'm certain you and I will be able to send each other bitcoin for quite some time.
asciilifeform: trinque: now this is a strange thing to say. from my pov, high water of warez is ~now~. for ~100bux/mo, gb/s warez. and been pumping it both up an' down for 15+yrs now and not even so much as fined, much less show trial.
trinque: in terms *of power* this means very little.
asciilifeform: warez imho is actually great example -- the beast mostly -- for all intents and purposes -- gave up re 'enforce against warez'
asciilifeform: instead simply content to have conned 1e8 lusers into paying 'netflix' etc
asciilifeform: note, voluntarily.
trinque: sure, and meanwhile adobe et al moved to walled gardens and subscription models, and I guarantee their paying customer ratio has never been higher
trinque: indeed!
asciilifeform: trinque: their proggies somehow now easier than ever before to crack.
asciilifeform: (which if you think about it, is odd. but tru -- because their copyprotection is implemented by indians nao)
trinque: the urge for men to self-enslave is the greatest if not sole danger to free men.
asciilifeform: esp. when 'hey lazy folx, here's new tv w/ netflix built in, wai you even want warez' etc
trinque: hm, ok, this comes to a point.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-12-17#1026838 << i'd argue specifically that if 1) trinque and asciilifeform can send ea.other btc + 2) no one can mint it out of arse just by decreeing -- then btc ~worx~, and will have a positivie exch rate in whatever, usd, zimabwe-d, ruble, candy, etc. and it goes on.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-17 19:31:24 trinque: I'm certain you and I will be able to send each other bitcoin for quite some time.
trinque: freedom must be defended from the wave of meat strategy until it grows large enough to kill the other.
trinque: this must involve secrecy.
asciilifeform: trinque: not that secrecy aint useful, but i find interesting how little even necessary to date.
asciilifeform: for instance, afaik 100% of 'illicit exchange man' arrests to date, were 'controlled buys' a la dope. i.e. intrinsically impossible in a solid wot context.
asciilifeform: interestingly, both in usa an' elsewhere.
asciilifeform: ( usg tradition moar or less ~requires~ a 'controlled buy', i.e. executed by a dedicated stoolie, to convict a contrabandist. and not merely 'd00d admitted on his www that he once sold a bitcoin'. e.g. mp admitted that he once killed and ate a man, but observe that no one tried to arrest him for it )
trinque: oh and, lets be clear; I'm holding mine til the end of time, or govt, whichever first.
asciilifeform: ... for that matter, erryone has met a hobo who 'admitted' to killing kennedy.
trinque: just, it deserves harsh critique.
trinque: I'm not terribly concerned with the man either, given the quality of life the plague has brought.
asciilifeform: trinque: i'm perhaps 'softer', would trade a few coin for some new passports if such thing were a thing
trinque: I spent quite some time looking, didn't find a spot that appealed
trinque: currently whoring for more leverage to look again.
asciilifeform: trinque: prices, also inflated. e.g. sad ol' europistan wants (last i knew) 800k usd for one.
asciilifeform: and it aint even properly outside reich.
trinque: the lack of "recruits" in the old days left a mark on my thinking. will continue to "why?" about that.
trinque: a hypothesis is that the thing never created space outside the reich, and as you say, even if we tried remote geography, would've been difficult to establish truly "outside".
asciilifeform: trinque: the montevideo experiment w/ 'outside' ended anticlimactically.
asciilifeform: imho a necessary baby step to creating an 'outside' is the legendary 'new net parasitizing on old' (insert length thread here!1)
asciilifeform: the old net, i am satisfied, does not ~have~ an 'outside'.
trinque: quite right, that'd resemble a solution.
trinque: bitcoin extruding this permanent record of my actions does not.
asciilifeform: whether you pay 2.5k/mo to uy national telecom for 200mbit (in good weather) -- or vietnam, etc. -- yer still 'inside'.
trinque: some of my actions yes. others, fuck you, eyes elsewhere.
trinque: without this anything interesting will either be strangled or want for adherents because most aren't as suicidal as we all were.
asciilifeform: trinque: for buncha suicidal psychos, per this model, for some reason all still (afaik..) alive an' walking
asciilifeform: wai is this, do you think
trinque: because narcissist also, and weren't important.
trinque: :D
asciilifeform: and, the other side of medal -- which 'important' folx gassed, who did not demonstrate a 2digit iq by doing something monumentally stupid (and, directly stupid, as in 'hire usg.stoolie to 'hitman'' -- rather than 'post on www re bitcoin' ) ?
asciilifeform: any, to date ?
trinque: the interesting hypothesis is that folks would loosen up if the space within which to do so existed.
asciilifeform: trinque: an alt-hypothesis is that already 'too loose' and a hotter climate would move the tech along.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-16 21:46:25 asciilifeform: imho, evolution of decentralized systems stalled, because climate ~too hospitable~ for bitcoin, turned out.
trinque: well, you ruskies always want to pour 1e6 meatsacks into a ditch to build a bridge.
trinque: not even saying it's wrong, but it's certainly a cultural conceit.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform, for instance, has btc addrs on his www. pgp-signed, even. sorta, almost 'w/ brass band playing', 'here it is, shoot'. but not only no gestapo, even telemarketers have left asciilifeform alone. 9000 ways one could explain 'why'. 'queue over 9000 long to shoot'. or, say, 'over 9000 dpr's to shoot 1st' ?
asciilifeform: or, perhaps , gestapo is busy with folx who go to the bar without correct muzzle ? nfi
asciilifeform: (what was it busy with last yr?)
trinque: they're a plague, not a person with an agenda. they don't choose.
trinque: but they do exert pressure on the minds of everyone alive, so long as they exist.
asciilifeform: trinque: my message here is 'the main policeman is the 1 in yer head'
trinque: creating a space that is less hospitable to the plague is just an engineering problem.
trinque: we're saying the same thing there.
asciilifeform: right, trinque , but the 1 in my head, is drunken and in pool of his vomit, harmlessly, the 1 in yours seems to be acting up an' whacking you w/ batons ?
trinque: what we're not agreeing on is to date the performative "look ma, metal codpiece in the lightning hasn't zapped me yet!" doesn't do anything, regardless of whether one does or doesn't get struck.
trinque: I will *never* use bitcoin to organize anything interesting, because it's not built to support it.
asciilifeform: trinque: what we seem to disagree on, is whether even raining, much less lightning..
trinque: eh, and ru-sphere sees honor in sending its soldiers one with gun, next bullets, third unarmed
asciilifeform: trinque: i can't resist to ask, what in your pov is missing ?
trinque: this informed much of the action of the once republic.
asciilifeform: i.e. in what way 'not built ... for interesting'
trinque: mining, centralizes. ledger, public.
asciilifeform: trinque: at risk of repeating earlier q -- why 'mining --centralizes' taking 11y to create paypalized btc ? and if 'ledger, public' makes for inescapable pinkertons finding erry d00d w/ btc and sitting him on the rack -- why 'pinkertons' not even finding the folx who openly advertised ? waiting for what?
asciilifeform: ( and, how wouldja propose to have publicly-known monetary mass, w/out a public ledger.. ? so far, appears to be infamous 'squaring the circle' puzzler. )
snsabot: (trilema) 2017-03-01 mircea_popescu: just payments. no payers. fuck usg.
asciilifeform: trinque: with all respect -- i still suspect that yer suffering from a depression on acct of tuning into the muppet circus.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-16 20:00:19 asciilifeform: trinque: is this warning prompted by anything in particular, or simply depression from hruschevrump being retired in favour of bidenezhnev ?
asciilifeform: it is ~very~ bad for health, to do this. yer brain ~will~ eventually come outta yer nose.
asciilifeform: it does. not. matter. which coulour muppet is in that chair, trinque .
asciilifeform: or whether lieutenant-muppet is called mnuchin or preet or etc.
trinque: I said nothing contrary.
trinque: and quite not-depressed about the orange idiot.
asciilifeform: a++ then
trinque: the kids will need a place to talk, and to misbehave, and this ain't it.
trinque: if they misbehave anyway, hooray. glad for them.
asciilifeform: trinque: how do you picture 'place to..' more concretely ?
trinque: where deniability is built in, and opposability optional.
asciilifeform: trinque: if you've an algo, asciilifeform will read it any day of the week.
asciilifeform: 'ring sig' demonstrably aint it, tho (see earlier log ptr)
asciilifeform questions the theoretical possibility of an item fully satisfying all of the conditions discussed in lnkd thrd
trinque hasn't solved yet, but considers it the most important problem.
trinque: pleasure to chat asciilifeform, will bbl
asciilifeform: laters trinque .
asciilifeform: nighty
asciilifeform also bbl.
verisimilitude: When I bother making a bitcoin address, I'm also going to just list it on my website; had I been able to follow through with that contract adlai, I would've made the details of that deal public; I don't see why not.