#trilema | 2019-08-20

feedbot: http://blog.lobbesblog.com/2019/08/on-relationships-or-how-pretense-kills/ << lobbesblog -- On Relationships or How Pretense Kills

spyked quite enjoys reading lobbes' philosophical posts

spyked: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-19#1929659 <-- PM works for L1 and L2; in-channel is limited to L1.

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-19 14:20:04 diana_alt: spyked: I don't recall and can't see at http://thetarpit.org/posts/y05/081-feedbot-manual.html - is feedbot for L1 only or does it work for anyone with positive ratings or regardless of rating or what?

mp_en_viaje waves

mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-18#1929619 << nice.

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-18 20:24:30 BingoBoingo: In updates, Povey says he might stop by.

mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-19#1929636 << was more like "intelligent" router, ftr, but yeah.

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-19 13:50:01 asciilifeform: diana_alt: fwiw i was not, to date, able to rule out mp's 'overworked pipe' hypothesis .

mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-19#1929650 << if nothing else, will tell us some things, similar to your point before. mystery delay will de-mystify through usage.

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-19 14:04:28 asciilifeform: diana_alt: i have plan to move the box to traditional apache, but yet not figured out how to do so w/out unacceptably long disruption of service .

mp_en_viaje would like to take the time to point this out re ye olde discussion of "is something to learn / is nothing to learn", coming up oft re gosspid but generally always there. "to learn" is insanely vague an operator. just because you don't learn anything useful [about programming] while doing, say, python, it still dun mean you don't learn anything useful about your girflriend, or the tcp infrastructure, or router hardware, or the difference be

mp_en_viaje was going to propose http://trilema.com/2015/the-four-points-of-this-morning-in-color-any-questions/ to the younghands summarization project ; then went over and checked what exactly the pinging article was doing, decided.... best not to.

mp_en_viaje: shrysr, what the heck are you doing, anyways ?

mp_en_viaje: meanwhile in ongoing cockcaged-usg lulz, http://trilema.com/2012/wikocrisy/#comment-131028

mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-20#1929777 < this, obviously is the exact complement to the oft-repeated "now that i write article 2, i find article 1 useful ; there was no way to evaluate this utility at the time decision to write article 1 was to be made" re blogwriting.

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-20 07:47:16 mp_en_viaje: would like to take the time to point this out re ye olde discussion of "is something to learn / is nothing to learn", coming up oft re gosspid but generally always there. "to learn" is insanely vague an operator. just because you don't learn anything useful [about programming] while doing, say, python, it still dun mean you don't learn anything useful about your girflriend, or the tcp infrastructure, or router hardware, or the difference be

mp_en_viaje: (amusingly, there was an article i ran into that made the exact point, in a list of four. meanwhile (superficially) reviewed the complete list of trilema articles i looked at this month (on this mchine), >6k lines, did not find it anymore. fuck me. and then of course there's http://trilema.com/2019/pizd-atrage-da-curu-trage-ca-n-viata-tragic/ )

mp_en_viaje: but the important point is, METHODOLOGY. science, not as "the profession" nor as "the professional activity", but as the occupation, science as in, productive, not science as in, socially acceptable -- IS A BEHAVIOUR. that's all it is, applying a method systematically.

mp_en_viaje: meaning that all prediction as to the future is to be based on METHODOLOGICAL considerations. how well the method was applied, and how uniformly, over how homogenous a sample with how good expected coverage. that's all.

mp_en_viaje: "traditional" (no they aren't) heuristic valuations of activity imported from the practices and intellectual habits of the herd of idiots are NOT USEFUL. how "boring" or "interesting" or "sexy" or whatever things seem, truly the on;ly saviour is the method ; which is why trilema can be interesting whatever i discuss, be it defecation or obscure byzantine minutia, whereas the herd of idiots c

mp_en_viaje: an't be interesting even when discussing interesting topics.

mp_en_viaje: like for instance

mp_en_viaje: ~any woman'd rather read me write in defense of rape than watch charlie branson-sheen derp about like little bois. the reason is ~THE METHOD~, not the subject, not "oh mp is rich" -- seriously, wtf -- not anything else.

mp_en_viaje: THE. METHOD. the one thing that unites "What do you mean how ?" and the reporting "who cares who it damages" and the engineering "who cares what business models/political arrangements this renders obsolete" is [http://trilema.com/2017/is-it-still-rape-if-i-write

mp_en_viaje: -science-on-my-penis-first/?b=Third&e=date.#select][the very substance of science], BECAUSE it is ~the scientific METHOD~.

mp_en_viaje: on the first pass it appears as a complete disinterest in "feelings", but it fundamentally is a method for the valuation of human activity. and therefore complete ethics and a set of morals. co

mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-19#1929705 << now that's pretty cool.

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-19 16:52:17 asciilifeform: this experiment also reveals that asciilifeform's logotron will in fact stand up, with no modifications, on a python, flask, pg, etc. plucked out of arbitrary rubbish bin.

mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-19#1929711 << this is possible if the intercontinental interchange's fucked. which...

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-19 17:35:50 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: hard to say for fact, but seems to add up to a picture where's there's a ~0.5s bottleneck b/w south amer. and errywhere else.

mp_en_viaje is too lazy to try and dust off ye olde netcraft toolset an' look

mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-19#1929757 << certainly seems to go with historical practice

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-19 21:55:06 asciilifeform: i expect at some pt mp will say to anyone in l1 who aint running a logger, 'партбилет на стол!'(tm)(r)

mp_en_viaje: o look, all caught up. well, ima bbl!

asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-20#1929795 << the measurements strongly suggest this.

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-20 08:48:36 mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-19#1929711 << this is possible if the intercontinental interchange's fucked. which...

asciilifeform: ( and, interestingly, specifically fucked re tcp. )

asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-19#1929749 << today <50kB/s...

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-19 21:20:26 asciilifeform: ftr gets ~80kB/s avg. from dulap, there.

asciilifeform: in other noose, the fella who first described 'endianism' is dead.

asciilifeform: !!up diana_alt

asciilifeform: hrm no deedbot ?!

asciilifeform: trinque ^

asciilifeform: meanwhile diana_alt's measurement of mirror load in #o.

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-20 14:49:59 diana_alt: asciilifeform: 4 runs of curl http://54.209.217.34/log/trilema/2018-04-18#1802801 > /dev/null give http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/1llzt/?raw=true

asciilifeform: ( spoiler : rubbish-mirror actually loads slightly faster, from europistan, than phf's orig., for 'heavy page' test )

asciilifeform: phf's item ftr lives also in usa, somewhere in nyc region

asciilifeform: atm it seems quite impossible even to say which ~generates~ the pgs faster -- the diff, if any, is entirely dwarfed by pipe effects

BingoBoingo: Meanwhile in local news, Red Bell Peppers price rises above ground beef price (green bell pepper still priced like produce) https://www.elobservador.com.uy/nota/el-morron-rojo-llega-a-250-y-el-consumidor-tiene-parte-de-la-culpa-2019816181427

asciilifeform: diana_coman, mp_en_viaje , spyked , et al : http://18.195.64.227/log << copy of 'rubbish mirror', identical (same 'dollar store' pseudo-isp) but this one in frankfurt. try the same timing w/ it.

mp_en_viaje is writing an article and then hopping on a plane, but in principle.

asciilifeform: ftr i get ~1.00s ('heavy page' test) from washingtonistan

asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje if you've 1s, time curl http://18.195.64.227/log/trilema/2018-04-18#1802801 > /dev/null

mp_en_viaje: 116 116 115 109 ms

mp_en_viaje: very reliably .1s-ish

asciilifeform: theeere we go.

asciilifeform: ty mp_en_viaje .

mp_en_viaje: my pleasyre.

mp_en_viaje: course land distance to frankfurt is ~1k km

asciilifeform: # of hops via buggered switches i suspect matters moar than km of fiber

mp_en_viaje: there IS an absolute limit. but, perhaps.

asciilifeform: planet3 is only ~43 light-millisecond in diameter, elementarily

asciilifeform: ( granted there aint a fiber through the diameter. but. )

asciilifeform: the mirrors are identical to the orig ( in re pythonism, nginx, etc ) and in fact considerably slower boxen, and laden with shitlinux ('centos') iirc . geography is the killer, imho satisfactorily proven .

asciilifeform: trinque, still no deedbot?!

bvt: hi, sorry for delay on the linux rng post, it is in fact ~ready, but i need one more day for proofreading

asciilifeform: meanwhile : BingoBoingo rk3328 seems to be back in print ! 50bux for the 4 GB, for 2 GB -- 35.

BingoBoingo: Interesting

BingoBoingo: I suppose we don't yet have an ada for it

asciilifeform: not a properly threaded one

asciilifeform: also worrisome is that http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-20#1929804 thing

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-20 11:52:47 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-19#1929749 << today <50kB/s...

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i'm skeptical that we're already outta pipe. but if this persists we will have to actually meter folx.

asciilifeform: ( jizzus , per legend, could feed a legion with 2 fish, but even he could not , i suspect, feed legion with 1 unmetered 100M pipe... )

BingoBoingo: Well 200/20 but everything has its limits

lobbes: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-20#1929767 << tyvm

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-20 04:38:22 spyked: quite enjoys reading lobbes' philosophical posts

lobbes: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-20#1929816 << on heavy page test, I get the following: NC : 0m1.711s, Austria VPS : 0m0.379s, Piz Rkchp : 0m2.054s

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-20 18:31:09 asciilifeform: diana_coman, mp_en_viaje , spyked , et al : http://18.195.64.227/log << copy of 'rubbish mirror', identical (same 'dollar store' pseudo-isp) but this one in frankfurt. try the same timing w/ it.

asciilifeform: lobbes: ty. moar or less what i'd expect to see.

asciilifeform: interesting that there's an entire 150ms b/w austria & frankfurt

lobbes: meanwhile, I've been looking at some dedicated server options, primarily for a second trb node on a proper ssd, but I will stand up a 'production' copy of asciilifeform's logotron as well

lobbes: wb deedbot!

asciilifeform: and wb deedbot !

asciilifeform: lobbes: lemme know if you run into any headache in standing up bot/reader

asciilifeform: imho it's quite straightforward

asciilifeform: lobbes: it aint a very 'hungry' proggy -- e.g. the db presently weighs <70MB

lobbes: will do. yeah, I didn't get the bot portion running on my local test box, nor did I do port forwarding, but the reader.py and database portions were up and running pretty smoothly

lobbes: and by 'didn't get' I mean 'simply didn't attempt'

asciilifeform: ( i.e. theoretically might even be faster if one were to sit it down in a sqlite rather than postgres. that is, if there were any actual need to make this thing faster, currently seems that there is not any such need )

asciilifeform: phuctor for 1st 2y of its life actually lived in a sqlite, and in fact this was faster than pg when data set weighed <1GB

lobbes: my archiver and the original lobbesbot still run on sqlite

lobbes: auctionbot (which sits on the logbot tree) however is postgres

asciilifeform: it's really notbad when entire orchestra is coupla times smaller than available ram

lobbes: really simple to backup the database too when it is just a single 'file'. cron and scp ftw

asciilifeform: i suspect presently that for nearly all installations, the 'limiting reactant' will be pipe bw, rather than cpu, ram, etc

asciilifeform: lobbes: when you stand up bot, make sure to change prefix knob ( both for when you arrange with mp_en_viaje to voice it in #t, but especially in the other chans, where if you fughet to change knob, it will step on the feet of mine )

mp_en_viaje: in other news, dude lobbes dodged a dependopotamus bullet ?

lobbes: mp_en_viaje: ooyeah. still need to get her out of my damn house though (I'm in an apartment now)

asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: iirc he described it at length even before, languished for years with dependopotamus

lobbes: asciilifeform: roger that re: knob

mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, if 43 ms in diameter then 135 in circumference ; and moreover information doesn't quite flow at the speed of light in our machines.

lobbes: then I need to sell that damn house. never doing the 'mortgage' thing again. the logs were right (as always)

asciilifeform: lobbes: do you know the old j00 folk tale where http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-06-30#1920764 ?

snsabot: Logged on 2019-06-30 02:02:16 asciilifeform: i suspect it aint the one he has, fwiw, but rather the one in that jewish tale where rabbi tells man 'bring into your house the cow, goat, sheep, then chase'em out sometimes and rejoice in their absence'

mp_en_viaje: bvt, proofreading never hurt anything

asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: rright, but not only this, but packet switching is nuffin like straight wire , is monstrously slow vs theoretical

lobbes: asciilifeform: haha no I've never heard. but would read sauce

mp_en_viaje: lobbes, well, worked out better for you than for kako, at least so far.

feedbot: http://trilema.com/2019/a-little-bit-of-that-old-world-charm-style-grace/ << Trilema -- A little bit of that old world charm, style & grace.

asciilifeform: lobbes: one translation

asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: kako had dependopotamus ?!

lobbes: asciilifeform: ty!

mp_en_viaje: afaik.

asciilifeform somehow escaped knowing this

mp_en_viaje: some http://trilema.com/2012/the-man-with-the-golden-arm/ -esque story, at any rate.

lobbes: same here. seems to get a lot of folks (wasn't the thickastheives guy in a similar boat?)

mp_en_viaje: no, afaik tha tguy was in same boat as pete_d, where the girl's daddy's the victim and the dude's just... you know, like those little male spiders ? dependopotamus accessories.

asciilifeform: lobbes: i got stuck in an airport 1ce with the thieves fella. he lived under the heel of wife, like saharov. entirely broken man.

lobbes: I'm just very thankful I never got married / had kids; the state being involved would have made this even harder to break free from

asciilifeform: compl. w/ 'i want dog but woman won't let' and the like

lobbes: ah that was the thread I was remembering; the airport one

mp_en_viaje: as per the http://trilema.com/2018/traditional-family-vs-the-harem-a-comparative-study/ dichotomy, one can acquire the useless female either by hunting stupidly or by wife spawning shit.

lobbes: that article, man. It is what set the gears in my head in motion. Read it on a plane flight some years ago and realized I was walking into a trap

asciilifeform: folx who won't train their pets, will end on a leash themselves, noose at 11...

lobbes: I took way too long to act of course, but oh well

asciilifeform: ( 'pet!' 'owner!' 'feed me' 'hrm wait aint this backwards' )

mp_en_viaje: everyone takes too long to act ~retrispectively~. it's part of the same bonus package of fonts as "treason never prospers"

lobbes enjoyed that story btw

asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: tasty looking foodz btwr

mp_en_viaje: poland does very well in terms of fine dining.

asciilifeform: this is imho underappreciated skill -- not many folx know how to photograph food properly

mp_en_viaje: i suspect it's actually better than france right now.

asciilifeform: also a+++ tripartite beard.

asciilifeform: ( recently, asciilifeform's brother : 'know what, mr p could design an os; you can't' a: 'why's that' b: 'he has the beard' )

asciilifeform: 'they're pretty much the only linguistic group very much in danger of mistaking industrial sounds for speech. Careful if you, for instance, use a can of compressed air to clean an old motherboard -- it's entirely possible the resulting vijiieli, indistinct as they may sound to your ear, nevertheless insult the Polish passerby's long dead relatives in the sauciest of manners.' << asciilifeform falls down.

asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: relatedly, the trad ru 'ethno-slur' for poles, 'пшеки', is quite a bit like 'пшик', what nominally spray can says.

mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, lmao

mp_en_viaje: ON BOTH ENDS

asciilifeform can read written pl approx as readily as engl, but to hear'em ~speak~ is other story entirely

mp_en_viaje: oya

asciilifeform: lobbes: i imagine getting rid of dependopotamus must rock, even more than 'expel the cow and the goat' in the chelem tale. suddenly all the surfaces 2x cleaner, the bag o' benjies 'magically' fuller...

mp_en_viaje shall bll.

trinque: asciilifeform: your setup with znc + ssl-less ircbot never gets stuck eh?

asciilifeform: trinque: i haven't attempted an under-znc variant of yet

trinque: sorry about the outage y'all; I'm going to do ^ next

asciilifeform: trinque: atm the bot on dulap is 'naked' <-> fleanode

asciilifeform: !q uptime

snsabot: asciilifeform: time since my last reconnect : 4d 10h 59m

asciilifeform: not yet stuck (or even bumped, other than by my own hand) .

trinque: I had forgotten the email registration part actually, so I guess bot pwd mitm somewhat mitigated by that

trinque: k, has to be the ssl garbage then.

asciilifeform: it will still be annoying, but not fatal

asciilifeform: trinque: atm i can't think of any reason why you couldn't sit it under e.g. znc. (my bot doesn't use any fleanodeisms internally)

asciilifeform: trinque: in yours, tho, iirc there ~is~ such a knob (it waits for a fleanode-specific ack string when connects)

asciilifeform: i was unable to sit pehbot under znc, for this reason

asciilifeform: see thrd re subj

snsabot: Logged on 2019-01-02 11:38:20 asciilifeform: if one absolutely insists on that feature, prolly Right Thing would be to patch bot so can hang off a znc ( i tried this with own hands, but failed, the existing item is apparently tailored to fleanode-direct connection )

lobbes: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-20#1929908 << yes, specifically I'm reminded of your tales you told of one salt mine (ascii_butugychag period?) where you could not *think*; this was how it was for me except when *not in the mines*. It is so nice to think again

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-20 21:17:29 asciilifeform: lobbes: i imagine getting rid of dependopotamus must rock, even more than 'expel the cow and the goat' in the chelem tale. suddenly all the surfaces 2x cleaner, the bag o' benjies 'magically' fuller...

asciilifeform: trinque: as i currently understand, you prolly cannot use exactly same algo in deedbot as in snsabot -- deedbot occasionally has to speak asynchronously. you'll need locking queue (as i think you already have)

asciilifeform: lobbes: in those days could think, more or less, only on the train.

lobbes: ugh

trinque: asciilifeform: will find time this weekend to do the minimal duct tape to keep the thing connected, probably amounts to simply lopping off ssl

asciilifeform: lobbes: but even there, i sat an' read e.g. 'programming of hell', got goin' with ada

asciilifeform: trinque: it is interesting that the ssl thing gets wedged. if i had free hand might even try to find where -- could be a 0day in there, potentially

trinque: asciilifeform: not even just here; I wrote some production services elsewhere in sbcl, used cl+ssl as dep, same wedging

asciilifeform: it's entirely conceivable tho that the wedge is on acct of a http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-20#1000423 !

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-20 15:01:22 asciilifeform: atm i vaguely suspect that tcp on piz is slowed by an inept wiretap somewhere.

trinque: heh, in the environment in which these ran, the mitm comes standard

trinque: motherinthemiddle

asciilifeform: rright. wedge could easily be happening on acct of some idjit perl running on a crab usg clamped to cable in bermuda triangle...

trinque: lobbes: you know, mircea_popescu asked me this when I told a similar tale of misbehaving woman wrecking the home.

trinque: now I'll turn it your direction. ever told her no before the exchange in your post?

lobbes: trinque: very rarely, and honestly I "caved in" way too often

lobbes: like asciilifeform said, "if you don't leash pet, it will leash you". and it happened

lobbes: we were together 8 years, mind. Living together for 7 of those 8, which made me ~23 when we got together. I was even dumber then, and the bad habits were engrained long before I got a clue

lobbes: s/engrain/ingrain

trinque: don't even think I was calling you stupid.

trinque: just pointing out that when you start telling 'em what, could possibly even have a *happy and productive* home

trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-17#1543393

trinque: ermergerd.

trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2016-09-16#1543388

snsabot: Logged on 2016-09-16 22:54:18 trinque: BingoBoingo: aha, in fact there was a thread where mircea_popescu explained that y'know, you teach the women things

trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2016-09-16#1543393 << more to the point.

snsabot: Logged on 2016-09-16 22:55:19 mircea_popescu: trinque fancy that, you had to have someone tell you! nature teaches by example, you stick more data into woman each time than you ever did into all machines you ever touched. yet...

lobbes: this is a point indeed (btw no worries earlier; I was calling myself dumb if anything haha)

lobbes: but it is true that I was also failing *her* by not taking the reigns as I should have. The next girls, however, will be taught properly.

trinque: I think more like "continuous discourse about things which are not stupid" and the rest flows from that

lobbes: this makes sense. But in order for this to happen I know I'll first need to be able to reliably identify things that are/are not stupid. Which, I'm getting better at each day, so there is that. Time is the key I guess

lobbes: and keeping off of the ol' ass, of course

lobbes: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-20#1929847 << btw I checked this to be sure, and looks like EDIS moved my 'node' some time ago. No longer in Austria as I thought but instead in Switzerland. Plox to s/Austria/Switzerland on all past timing reports.

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-20 20:42:10 asciilifeform: interesting that there's an entire 150ms b/w austria & frankfurt

lobbes: still, roughly the same difference in distance give or take

asciilifeform: lobbes: presently seems to me that 'distance' such as exists on net, corresponds moar closely to '# of hops through nsa cisco' rather than naive 'km of fiber'.