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crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2023-09-26#1030972 << quite frankly, I have never had any interest in kicking around the corpse of all the "could've beens" tmsr was. when I initially joined #asciilifeform shortly after mp ended up sleeping the fishes, I had nil understanding of the history of tmsr, wotronics, et cetera
dulapbot: Logged on 2023-09-26 19:04:08 asciilifeform: crtdaydreams: before you showed up, there were folx who walked in shopping for 'replacement'. had to explain that wrong addr.
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: . my interest here from the very beginning has been lisp machines. not really
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: anything else. I see the utility of pest, but it's still rather futile on a heathen box. The adversary that can snoop all the packets also has the capacity to rootkit any box with ME or AMD equiv. It can only be "true free machine" if it's running on pre-2008 thinkpad + libreboot + custom linux + external rng, ofc with the
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: requisite that the entire codebase has been read and vetted by multiple
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: individuals, and the software stack has the latest necessary security patches (manually applied)
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: it's a mammoth job to make that shit shine
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: aside, please forgive my poor linguistics, sometimes even after reading over what I just wrote before [ENTER] my brain still manages to fill in missing words/incorrect meanings with what I intend
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: e.g. s/sleeping the fishes/sleeping with the fishes/
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: what is any of this but a means to an end?
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: afaik the goal has always been sane computing, tmsr just happened to be a wave that you rode in an attempt to get funding
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: you'd be the only man on the planet that has the dies to spare to crack iron gc
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: if I understand correctly, the next most useful thing would be a software stack to decode a scan into verilog
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: or some other mutable representation of the hardware
dulapbot: Logged on 2023-09-26 11:44:59 asciilifeform: has 0 interest in 'bottle shaking', impressing dimwits, gathering mindless followers 'under the flag', etc., firmly sees such activity as dead end
dulapbot: (asciilifeform) 2021-09-23 asciilifeform: PeterL: if pestism catches on, will be very easy to bake a fpga prefilter, much cheaper (and lower mains current usage) than a beefy x86
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-09-27 01:13:50 crtdaydreams[signpost]: anything else. I see the utility of pest, but it's still rather futile on a heathen box. The adversary that can snoop all the packets also has the capacity to rootkit any box with ME or AMD equiv. It can only be "true free machine" if it's running on pre-2008 thinkpad +
asciilifeform: i.e. the logical conclusion of pest is effectively a network where the enemy can't send packets (incl. 'magick' packets) at all.
dulapbot: (asciilifeform) 2020-10-07 asciilifeform: PeterL: i won't presume to speak for trinque , but in asciilifeform's conception, the obv. Right Thing would be an item which rides atop ipv4 in the same sense that the latter once rode atop telco grid; and w/ cryptographic routing (i.e. yer address is a pubkey) and ciphration (i.e. messages readable strictly by addressee) . all else -- implementation detail.
asciilifeform: naturally this requires irons, to interface to heathen net, which actually implement pest (and ~only it~, not anyffin else, not linux, not bsd ip stack, not porous intel/broadcom/etc nic, etc.)
asciilifeform designed the protocol specifically to make this possible. but it requires, obv., hands, which atm in very short supply
asciilifeform: 'p2p chat' is simply a demo application. actual design objective was, from the start, the above.
signpost[asciilifeform]: "my interest here from the very beginning has been backyard orbital rocketry"
signpost[asciilifeform]: crtdaydreams: and no, you're incorrect that tmsr was a "just want to" fund sane computing. philosophy is upstream of any particular techne.
signpost[asciilifeform]: there is no sane anything built on insane priors, which include things well outside computing.
signpost[asciilifeform]: moreover the challenge anyone who did not participate in tmsr has in describing tmsr is they're coming from a zero-sum world of low trust. it is hard to conceptualize how rapidly cultural development can occur in a high-trust environment.
signpost[asciilifeform]: say the root of the world is not god, or government, but man - not as an alternative to be chosen - but a fact you can either know or ignore.
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2023-09-27#1031001 << If it was not clear, I was speaking directly to Stanislav regarding his own personal goals. Not that of tmsr.
dulapbot: Logged on 2023-09-27 15:07:33 signpost[asciilifeform]: crtdaydreams: and no, you're incorrect that tmsr was a "just want to" fund sane computing. philosophy is upstream of any particular techne.
signpost[asciilifeform]: yes, I understood what you said. the idea that things such as these are separable from philosophy or even lowly politics is not obvious.
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2023-09-27#1030997 << all of this sits on the assumption that some kind of low-pass filter for shortwave uwb is even possible and won't get garbled by arbitrary noise
dulapbot: Logged on 2023-09-27 11:09:18 asciilifeform: naturally this requires irons, to interface to heathen net, which actually implement pest (and ~only it~, not anyffin else, not linux, not bsd ip stack, not porous intel/broadcom/etc nic, etc.)
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: it's like building a switchboard out of tin cans and string
signpost[asciilifeform]: what would you say the role of an erasure code is in the contemplated p2p radio net?
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: are you talking about i.e. deadmans switch to wipe memory and flash over fpga?
signpost[asciilifeform]: no, a fountain code / erasure code / error-correcting code etc.
signpost[asciilifeform]: provided *any* signal makes it through, the algo can be adjusted to reassemble the original message given enough broadcast time.
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: it assumes a constant broadcasting line rate and that said adversary is not blasting rf noise at you
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: how do you propose that person A and person B are broadcasting and person C recieves both broadcasts at the same time
signpost[asciilifeform]: you're starting in the middle of your thoughts, my guy, and not giving a clue how you got there.
signpost[asciilifeform]: whole point of an error-correcting code is dealing with information loss.
signpost[asciilifeform]: such as introduced by jamming, or star farts
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: there is a very small pool of viable noise/gate thresholds that account for noise and variation within uwb
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: it seems to me that if you start trying to process multiple users broadcasts, unless there is some kind of phase shift aglo you can do to tell them apart (assuming constant line rate) it would get messy very quickly
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: if there is no constant line rate, then you just have noise
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: correct me if I'm wrong in this understanding
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: the only viable solution I can see would be different recievers for each peer
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: maybe with a certain tolerance, your error correcting code might be able to handle maybe 3 different peers broadcasting to you at different thresholds on the uwb shortwave spectrum on a single reciever
signpost[asciilifeform]: out of my depth on that question, but at least I understand what you're getting at now.
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: your best bet might just be "person A can only broadcast between xx:xx - yy:yy and person B can only broadcast between yy:yy-xx:xx" it's possible that some kind of deterministic delay in broadcast that is calculated on each box and randomized could be implemented into the protocol, but that would get messy at the scale of
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: even the dunbar number
asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-09-27#1030503 << comment wasn't re radio , but a later thrd re fpga implementation of correct pestron complete w/ nic
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-09-27 19:21:06 crtdaydreams[jonsykkel|signpost]: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2023-09-27#1030997 << all of this sits on the assumption that some kind of low-pass filter for shortwave uwb is even possible and won't get garbled by arbitrary noise
dulapbot: Logged on 2023-09-27 11:09:18 asciilifeform: naturally this requires irons, to interface to heathen net, which actually implement pest (and ~only it~, not anyffin else, not linux, not bsd ip stack, not porous intel/broadcom/etc nic, etc.)
asciilifeform: ( radio thread not uninteresting but rather orthogonal )
asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-09-27#1030522 << fundamental misunderstanding of the concept, asciilifeform suspects. the notion of uwb is that 'when to watch for the pulse' is part of the key, and anyone w/out the latter simply sees noise indistinct from thermal background
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-09-27 19:46:38 crtdaydreams[jonsykkel]: your best bet might just be "person A can only broadcast between xx:xx - yy:yy and person B can only broadcast between yy:yy-xx:xx" it's possible that some kind of deterministic delay in broadcast that is calculated on each box and randomized could be implemented into
asciilifeform: ( not 'ufological' concept, incidentally, existing e.g. gps signal in fact is below noise floor , the receiver is able to hear on account of knowing atypically much re what it expects to hear )
asciilifeform: ( see also e.g. )
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-06-17 asciilifeform: idea of pll is that you can indeed see a lit match from mile away in daylight if you know 'exactly when to look'
asciilifeform: all of this is rather 'bridge too far' atm tho. the basic iron pestron oughta consist simply of a box which sits on traditional heathen ethernet, but contains 0 von neumann lolcpu and no software (in the usual sense), in exactly same way as fg does not
asciilifeform: 2 colors of jack, 'red' (faces yer lan) and 1 or moar 'black' (faces heathen isp)
dulapbot: Logged on 2023-09-27 20:04:20 asciilifeform: ( radio thread not uninteresting but rather orthogonal )
asciilifeform: box behaves per spec, regardless of what comes in via the 'black' jacks (even if that's 220v or whatnot)
asciilifeform: the physical aspect of the i/o is secondary. (conceivably could consist of radio, or even analogue modem)
asciilifeform: see also e.g..
dulapbot: (asciilifeform) 2022-03-28 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: we're talking about a 'red/black' separator in iron, where 0 secrets travel in/outta 1 of the jacks, tho
dulapbot: Logged on 2023-09-27 15:16:46 signpost[asciilifeform]: moreover the challenge anyone who did not participate in tmsr has in describing tmsr is they're coming from a zero-sum world of low trust. it is hard to conceptualize how rapidly cultural development can occur in a high-trust environment.
dulapbot: Logged on 2023-07-02 12:42:52 asciilifeform: signpost: he did have a point tho. ( per mp's original ex cathedra iirc this knot was supposed to be cut by 'i'm signing with my shit-i-havent-read-cuz-itd-take-over9000-years key' , but no one, mp incl., actually did this at any pt )
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: the trust system didn
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: the trust system didn't mean shit because you can't even trust the signature of "i've read & vetted this code"
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: even now, what's the point of a trusted system if you're just gonna poison it with some shitcord portal
signpost[asciilifeform]: I would have a hard time imagining phf saying something as vague and grunty as "the trust system didn't mean shit"
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: you're right. I'm just making a fool of myself, I'm grasping at straws.
signpost[asciilifeform]: at any rate, you're bouncing between topics without much time spent on any of them. maybe pick one and stick to it for a while.
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: I'm not interested in continuing a conversation on the topic of "why tmsr failed" there's enough of that in the logs, and for obvious reasons it's beyond my scope for never having participated in it to comment in depth.
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: With regards to pestnet being a continuation of this channel of tmsr thought, I see the merit, and I've failed to make any kind of substantiated point.
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2023-09-27#1031001 << I initially wrote this in reply in disagreement. It has dawned on me in the course of doing so that the trust-based model (of philosophy) supercedes anything else and is indeed integral to what sane computing is. <br> [http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/20
dulapbot: Logged on 2023-09-27 15:07:33 signpost[asciilifeform]: crtdaydreams: and no, you're incorrect that tmsr was a "just want to" fund sane computing. philosophy is upstream of any particular techne.
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: 22-08-12#1113106][There are brains out there that want the same thing.]
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: [www.loper-os.org/?p=284][Sane computers.] I think this is an objectively achieveable goal that can be seperable from even a marked difference in ideology.
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: I ask you now, is that trust-based model all that tmsr stood for?
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: is it just by happenstance that tmsr came into existence through utilizing the system of monetization, or that it is ideologically and philosophically seperable from this
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: The nature of this question is whether or not tmsr was ever a necessary step or even relevant to achieving sane computing
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: if the wot model can exist independently then why can it not be seperated from the dead tsar?
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2023-09-27#1031063 << I would even go so far as to say that in this case, if you were to strip away the overarching ideals and implementation, the fundamental libertine notions are not so different
dulapbot: Logged on 2023-09-27 21:17:32 crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: [www.loper-os.org/?p=284][Sane computers.] I think this is an objectively achieveable goal that can be seperable from even a marked difference in ideology.
signpost[asciilifeform]: where are you going to fab your sane computer?
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: How do you expect to sell open source software?
signpost[asciilifeform]: broski, if you tried answering my questions you'd find they're not jabs in a sparring session, but prompts to think.
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: If by the nature of sane computing the entire software and hardware stack must be avaliable to be known by the operator, why should anyone bother with a platform like this?
signpost[asciilifeform]: as you walk the dependency chain outward from your computer you're going to find it's an empire-scale project
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: I know that fab isn't a walk in the park
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: I think fab can be seperated from the step of design
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: There is no point in a fab without anything *to* fab
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: a "sane cpu" could be the gateware and bootstrap code vetted by multiple trusted parties
signpost[asciilifeform]: need of a fab does not make one be.
signpost[asciilifeform]: a reason tmsr keeps getting brought back up is mind-worms such as "towards purpose" were dealt with.
signpost[asciilifeform]: the place to start this conversation is where one's ass sits. what would "sane computer" mean in your present context? what'd it enable that you currently can't do?
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2023-09-27#1031079 << I'm doubtful tsmc would exist at the scale it does without being "needed" the entire capital business model for semiconductor fab (foundries at least) is built on the constant demand of chips
dulapbot: Logged on 2023-09-27 21:44:15 signpost[asciilifeform]: need of a fab does not make one be.
signpost[asciilifeform]: there is nothing at all incompatible with those two statements.
signpost[asciilifeform]: either put in the effort to understand the person talking with you, or pull your dick on the other tab for all I care.
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2023-09-27#1031081 << every structure ought to be mutable from the level of hardware. think of a metacircular fpga. you should be allowed to write (in realtime-cpu cycles) a cpu module for e.g. hardware-accelerated serpent and be able to integrate that into any level of execution during
dulapbot: Logged on 2023-09-27 21:46:16 signpost[asciilifeform]: the place to start this conversation is where one's ass sits. what would "sane computer" mean in your present context? what'd it enable that you currently can't do?
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: runtime. if you are to do this, the requisite is that you must be able to
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: access, read and write all of systems code and firmware. you should be able to edit the design of the very architecture the system is currently executing on during runtime. and do so in a failsafe manner.
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: at this level of transparency all the issues involved with system security and trust should be a natural addition
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2023-09-27#1031085 << the thing is, I couldn't give a fuck *how* the cpu is made. god, go hand solder a ton of transistors if ya want. i'm saying it's beyond the scope of the problem. you wanna go figure out world domination so you can have your mass fab? go for it, good luck.
dulapbot: Logged on 2023-09-27 21:53:45 signpost[asciilifeform]: either put in the effort to understand the person talking with you, or pull your dick on the other tab for all I care.
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: the basic architecture for what I propose is really not much different from an fpga anyway
signpost[asciilifeform]: I jumped into this thread to correct the thinking that emitted this.
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-09-27 01:13:50 crtdaydreams[signpost]: anything else. I see the utility of pest, but it's still rather futile on a heathen box. The adversary that can snoop all the packets also has the capacity to rootkit any box with ME or AMD equiv. It can only be "true free machine" if it's running on pre-2008 thinkpad +
signpost[asciilifeform]: anyone who builds a fits-in-head computer in the future will have done so by chaining the things which he could achieve correctly.
signpost[asciilifeform]: that's been the only point on my end this whole thread.
signpost[asciilifeform]: only way I've speculated one could do so is by first being wildly successful at something else. consider that the tech giants all *have* custom hardware they do trust much more than the off the shelf shit.
signpost[asciilifeform]: the reasons something befitting "sane computer" isn't sold is political. recall when Apple briefly tried resisting USG on unlocking some iPhone?
signpost[asciilifeform]: went quiet suddenly; consider why.
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2023-09-27#1031099 << I understand this. What if you were to distribute the source and documentation widely on the net? There's not much the USG can do about it.
dulapbot: Logged on 2023-09-27 23:01:39 signpost[asciilifeform]: the reasons something befitting "sane computer" isn't sold is political. recall when Apple briefly tried resisting USG on unlocking some iPhone?
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: I understand your point re: hardware though.
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: feds would be rather quick to shut down any home fab
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: At the very least the information could propagate across generations
signpost[asciilifeform]: "have you considered killing the thing that fucked up the other computers"
signpost[asciilifeform]: not saying you can. I'm saying the fact of it doesn't change because you want something.
signpost[asciilifeform]: and barring that, you will have to build something in *their* world.
signpost[asciilifeform]: you're not building another TSMC because fuck you, the empire has one and you aren't it. etc
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: so what's the alternative?
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: what you're saying essentially implies that all efforts are purely sisyphean
signpost[asciilifeform]: I'm usually pretty explicit in what I'm saying, and futilty didn't come up.
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: I appreciate your patience
signpost[asciilifeform]: bitcoin itself is an example of success in this, to the degree that vampire banks are lining up to launch spot ETFs now.
signpost[asciilifeform]: took what, 14 years or so
signpost[asciilifeform]: you either win against the empire with a huge technical leap that saturates the world faster than they can react, or by killing it.
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: the possibility of it self-destructing isn't listed, why's that?
signpost[asciilifeform]: well, you wanted something. better not wait around for that, might still be falling when we're old men.
signpost[asciilifeform]: also if it self-destructs that just means you've got to bring the empire of resources to the table for your computer, rather than con them out of theirs.
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: you and I both know I haven't got the brains for that
signpost[asciilifeform]: best one's got is incremental steps to tame the shitware we've got, then.
signpost[asciilifeform]: would be nice to at least control with whom the turd can speak. that would rule out certain failure modes, if not all.
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: Thanks, ya really had to spell it out for me, didn't ya.
signpost[asciilifeform]: would be even nicer if there were steps after this, maybe decompose the monolithic compute turd into pieces, pick away at them.
signpost[asciilifeform]: eh people underappreciate conversation anymore
signpost[asciilifeform]: fine thing to discuss.
signpost[asciilifeform]: practically, I'm dedicating a lot of meatspace time to projects meant to convert USD to corn, so I'm not pushing this along as much as I'd like right now.
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: you're refering to pentacle?
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: I really have nothing useful to contribute to this conversation, probably no near future ones either
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: signpost: thanks for your time and patience, have a good day
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