Hide Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2023-01-19 | 2023-01-21 → ↓
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-19#1020956 << More or less, the point I was vying for was really "the machinist doesn't go home to work on a project on his personal hobby lathe after 12hr day." The tendency for passion to be destroyed by work results in the highly skilled individuals prioritizing commercialisms instead
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-01-19 11:26:11 phf[deedbot]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-19#1020948 << from the cutoff it's not obvious if you're referencing bob black's zerowork or the gamification of the internet, because both points are made in the original
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: of e.g. torvalds
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: I'm not too familiar with bob blacks work, but from this snippet we're both on the same page.
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-01-19 11:42:27 phf[awt|deedbot]: so when i bring up bob black it's mostly to acknowledge that nobody and any point of time wanted to work. that a base man's natural inclanation is to either play a fiddle by a shack or take it a step further and go be merry men in the sherwood forest
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-19#1020962 << I feel like I articulated this somewhat with my use of "generational" but it's good to have it confirmed to be the exception, not the norm.
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-01-19 11:48:42 phf[deedbot|awt]: but here's a thing, bob black's ideas are basically timeless, where's high dopamine activities are the past 10 years
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: I initially thought that the rhodesia segue was rather tangential, retrospectively it raises an interesting q, are there any other historical "rhodesias"? Wherin ancient reich declared unpersoned. History being cyclic and all there should be some similarity within the last 800 years no?
asciilifeform: crtdaydreams: most obv -- carthage
asciilifeform: >800 but is the go-to example
asciilifeform: if you want a recent one -- 'free state of fiume'
asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021101 << many (most?) programmers not program in civilian life. (e.g. asciilifeform's brother does not)
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-01-20 04:13:05 crtdaydreams[jonsykkel|awt|signpost]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-19#1020956 << More or less, the point I was vying for was really "the machinist doesn't go home to work on a project on his personal hobby lathe after 12hr day." The tendency for passion to be destroyed by work results i
asciilifeform: ( not because 'tired from work', but simply interested in diff thing, he's a 7dan amateur go player )
phf: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021108 << well, i obviously think that it raises all kinds of questions, hence the tangent :)
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-01-20 04:32:20 crtdaydreams[jonsykkel|awt|signpost]: I initially thought that the rhodesia segue was rather tangential, retrospectively it raises an interesting q, are there any other historical "rhodesias"? Wherin ancient reich declared unpersoned. History being cyclic and all there should be some similarit
phf: but i'm not sure if i'm particularly interested in historic parallels, because i *personally* find them to be very unsatisfying
phf: the way i tie together rhodesia, finland and modern "failure to act", is that they all are about intentional destruction of organized private spaces
phf: and one hypothesis why failure to act is about internalized demoralization, which perhaps stems from some kind of possibly misapplied principles of fairness, etc.
asciilifeform: 1st law of 1000y reich construction : 'there shall be nowhere to defect to'
dulapbot: (asciilifeform) 2020-06-07 asciilifeform: ru storyteller v. pelevin had a scene where 'we had sovok, but to ours, people could bring bootleg jeans and music. and it was even possible to get out. now you have one in usa, but there is important difference : no one will bring bootleg jeans to it, and no one will get out, because it hasn't got an outside'
phf: and i think that this internalized demoralization in the west and in us is instilled since early childhood with various "share your toys", "let john play", and various other forms of be nice
phf: because there might be very good reasons why you don't want to share your toys, or let john join your little club, and not all of them are "because you're meany"
asciilifeform still remembers the not-least-bit-'natural' death of usenet via TBs of shannonized spamola, and believes that even this was part of said 'destruction of private spaces'
asciilifeform: re 'let john', see e.g.
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-06-19 asciilifeform: ( see also mircea_popescu's '...bullying is done by normal, sane and upstanding humans who are trying to do their part so we don't live among monsters' -- http://trilema.com/2014/the-all-american-asshole-in-his-own-words-with-my-own-notes )
phf: and i suspect there's synergistic process, with ideology on one side and "this benefits us" on the other
phf: like in that old joke, one russian is decent guy, two russians are best friends, three russians are a revolutionary cell with a traitor
phf: but anyway, not to detour, but the demoralization stems from the fact that whatever you might build will be destroyed, because there's a huge mental leap from socially indoctrinated kid into "fuck off, we're full"
asciilifeform: not merely destroyed. but unhappened/invisible, because the fundamental prohibition is on 'room with 7 smart people w/out a politruk' and without 'neutron absorber' idjits with 'rights'
phf: and if 50 years ago you literally had to be building a white ethnostate with black majority, then now a superbowl get together where it's only white guys is racist
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-01-18 15:30:30 asciilifeform[5]: phf: prolly there are , let's say, 7 people in usa building electrolytic milling machines ( an asciilifeform attempt fwiw ) in garages, but they're all 'hiki' and will never meet
phf: right, the politruk angle of course comes in because collective action, union, "going own way", etc. all "dangerous" things
asciilifeform: for bonus lul, often enuff in current reich the mandatorily embedded snitch operates entirely overtly
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-08-29 kanzure: so for at least a ~year many of us had regular "coffee meetings" with local area special agent
phf: asciilifeform, i forgot if it was yours or mp's take that compters and internet were an acident that lizards didn't anticipate, was very dangerous development for a while, until got reintegrated into older project
phf: tell me, mr. anderson. what good is a phone call, if you're unable to speak?
asciilifeform: phf: asciilifeform's historic pov (and moar elaborately written about by e.g. alex rosov in ru space & others)
asciilifeform: the microcomp revolution was 'mitigated' successfully by microshit in '90s; internet -- was not supposed to 'leak out' to plebes, these were to sit in aol cattle enclosure (and, observe, were finally herded back into it via arsebook et al ~10y later)
phf: asciilifeform, links to relevant alex rosov? and also http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-19#1020988
phf: also did you ever configure your port forwarding? i'm not getting any direct packets from you, and right now for whatever reason both deedbot and awt's station are doing something retarded, so dulapbot is suddenly my only connection to the outside
asciilifeform: phf: sadly had these on a since-deceased 'toilet' hdd; but prolly findable with elbow grease
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-01-19 12:55:35 asciilifeform[4]: also seems to support e.g. alex rosov's pov re subj -- 'they strangled rhodesia to show erryone that no, you aint allowed to build a functional, independent country from scratch, fuckyou'
asciilifeform: d00d was positively obsessed with 'rhodesias', had lengthy series of novels re 'deliberate countries' which wage partizan war on the reich
asciilifeform: (sadly, cosmic ray hit his brain at some pt and ended up imagining ukrs as 1 such, lol, asciilifeform quit reading)
signpost[asciilifeform]: I'm yet unsatisfied with it being self-evident that elites should want this kind of world.
signpost[phf]: still lean towards some fundamental health catastrophe underlying.
phf[asciilifeform]: asciilifeform, is there even any kind of entry point or lead? google is failing me
signpost[phf]: "tell me, mr. anderson. what good is a dick if you're unable to fuck?"
asciilifeform[phf]: perhaps interestingly, described 'they need a faux-pandemic' in 2018, with step-by-step algo
signpost[asciilifeform]: wife and I make a game of spotting female fat distribution on men.
asciilifeform: (warning: km's of woo)
phf[asciilifeform]: asciilifeform, i read lj of a guy who believes that history, particularly ancient history was entirely fabricated and constructed by masonic vampire jews in 16th-19th centuries. km of woos ain't got nothing on me
asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021146 << seems obv enuff that they do -- i.e. convert planet3 to brazil-style 'utopia', but with smaller expenditure on ammo & concertina wire than if populated by off-shelf healthy folx
bitbot[phf]: Logged on 2023-01-20 14:37:31 signpost: I'm yet unsatisfied with it being self-evident that elites should want this kind of world.
asciilifeform: phf: i recall that 1 (and there's entire subculture, recently spread to usa even)
dulapbot: Logged on 2023-01-20 14:38:40 phf[asciilifeform]: asciilifeform, i read lj of a guy who believes that history, particularly ancient history was entirely fabricated and constructed by masonic vampire jews in 16th-19th centuries. km of woos ain't got nothing on me
asciilifeform: it gets amped by the usual suspects for same reason as 'martians fired disintegrator to do 9-11' culture
dulapbot: (asciilifeform) 2022-03-24 asciilifeform: signpost: 'martians' 'happened' to it
signpost[asciilifeform]: jeez. pest-net is all sorts of fucked atm.
signpost[phf|phf]: receiving replays. and I currently have a direct connection to neither of ya.
phf[asciilifeform]: signpost, i think it's because i was spitting truths above. shut it down!
signpost[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021156 << that they do is not sufficient explanation for why they do
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-01-20 14:40:19 asciilifeform[jonsykkel]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021146 << seems obv enuff that they do -- i.e. convert planet3 to brazil-style 'utopia', but with smaller expenditure on ammo & concertina wire than if populated by off-shelf healthy folx
asciilifeform: signpost: from asciilifeform's debug log, loox like 1 of us talked 'out of phase' and stations with order buffering are letting things sit in buffer
asciilifeform: (order buffer etc delenda est per new spec, but there aint anyone running new spec yet afaik)
signpost[asciilifeform]: pedophilic vampirism seems one hell of a decayed state.
phf: i think a stop gap solution would be to just set the order buffer time to 0, so that packets land immediately as they come
asciilifeform: signpost: expand? ( why ~wouldn't~ the pedophilic vampires want to populate planet3 with decerebrated, sexless biorobots? eternal dream of slaver elites since t=-inf )
signpost[asciilifeform]: yeah, went ahead and set that
signpost[asciilifeform]: checked clock on station, fine
asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021148 << config'd, but may be phucked again (and dynamic ip)
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-01-20 14:37:40 phf[jonsykkel|deedbot|awt]: also did you ever configure your port forwarding? i'm not getting any direct packets from you, and right now for whatever reason both deedbot and awt's station are doing something retarded, so dulapbot is suddenly my only connection to the outside
awt[asciilifeform]: phf: I'll do this on my station shortly
phf: awt ty!
asciilifeform: awt: which knob was this again ?
asciilifeform vaguely recalls setting
signpost[asciilifeform]: asciilifeform: take it from biology's perspective. run the globohomo thing forward; it results in a population crash that erases the industrial processes that keep the pedovampires in power
signpost[asciilifeform]: the lack of rational self-interest among rulers does not smell like rulers who are well.
awt[asciilifeform]: asciilifeform: can't remember atm thus the 'shortly'
signpost[asciilifeform]: they look like people projecting their own suicidality upon the world
signpost[asciilifeform]: or in nietzsche's terms, those who wish revenge upon reality for their having existed
asciilifeform: signpost: the crash in question strictly among the white folx with 'unreasonable' expectations (such as not living 7 to a room, or making use of hospitals, etc)
phf: signpost, well, the question "why live?" hasn't been answered, and if god *is* dead, we ought to be really mad at him
asciilifeform: signpost: observe, 0 crash among the designated 'worker' untermenschen
asciilifeform: the bankmans spend 0 cycles on 'why live' puzzle -- difficult to end up scratching head 'why live' when snorting coke by the kilogram, surrounded by harem, on epstein islands
phf: or in other terms, why model airplane clubs, when you can just have a eloi watching netflix on android
asciilifeform: 'why live' is a q for the inmates.
awt[asciilifeform]: asciilifeform: order_buffer_expiration_seconds (default is 120 seconds)
asciilifeform: aa ty awt!
awt[asciilifeform]: $knob order_buffer_expiration_seconds 0
phf: asciilifeform, that's not historically supported. why live is almost entirely a question at the very top of maslov's
awt[asciilifeform]: Ok set to 0 here.
asciilifeform: phf: the aristos only start 'why live'ing when coke tolerance sets in, then they go and take to swimming in vortex beach in costa rica etc
asciilifeform: awt: ty, set to 0 nao
asciilifeform: signpost: observe that, for most part, the davos-goers aint self-castrating, nor 'walmart fat', nor otherwise show the maculae
asciilifeform: and at their feast there, not eating 'meal squares'(tm) or dried cockroaches
asciilifeform: these -- for humans to eat.
asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021191 << homo netflixicus has 0 concept of constructive activity, and similarly no one with-whom. may as well ask why vodka on indian reservation.
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-01-20 14:51:39 phf[awt|deedbot]: or in other terms, why model airplane clubs, when you can just have a eloi watching netflix on android
asciilifeform: from lizard pov, white who expects to e.g. live in own house, is seen similarly to how 19th c american settler saw indian who expected to freely horse around hunting buffalo. i.e. 'annoying, entitled pest'
dulapbot: (asciilifeform) 2022-03-15 asciilifeform: ... from reich pov, plebes having savings is a bug, similarly to resistive losses in electric cable. 'pieces of yacht that got diverted'
dulapbot: (asciilifeform) 2021-09-27 asciilifeform: PeterL: both come from same root -- lizards' desire to keep their yachts, palaces, and cocaine despite a collapsing support base. i.e. same thing that happened in e.g. argentina. (or 1700s fr. for that matter. and plenty of other places.)
dulapbot: (asciilifeform) 2022-03-07 asciilifeform: oblig. su joak: 'father: vodka's gone up, son. son: father, does that mean you will drink less now? father: no, son, it means that now you will eat less!'
phf: is the ideology of the deathcult the driving force, or the ideology is emergent from deathcult
phf: but also when did this deathcult kick in
asciilifeform: afaik they've been trying out various ideologies to set plebes against 1 anuther for 100+y, seeing 'what sticks' and experimenting
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-01-19 16:35:45 asciilifeform[5]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-19#1021071 << suspect that it's belly-bustingly funny to the perps (i.e. lizards). just as bear baiting not funny to the bears, aint trying to be, but to ~spectators~
phf: yeah, but apre moi le deluge is not the default or the only way of going about things
phf: you know you have king solomon, or alexander/philip, or "divine rights of kings", or …
asciilifeform: at 1 time they had religious framework and >lifetime time horizon. afaik mostly evaporated, and replaced with 'go die today so i can die tomorrow'(tm)(r)(kolyma) default firmware
phf: but then i'm not a strong believer in lizards specifically. lizards are kind of like an antichrist, a particular kind of failure mode
asciilifeform iirc described previously, but 'lizards' are analogous to faraday's magnetic field lines. i.e. exist, but not as pictured in sf films, with actual scales etc
phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2023-01-20#1021301 << which is evola's argument also "if god is dead, then it'll be all nihilism from now on"
dulapbot: Logged on 2023-01-20 15:13:56 asciilifeform: at 1 time they had religious framework and >lifetime time horizon. afaik mostly evaporated, and replaced with 'go die today so i can die tomorrow'(tm)(r)(kolyma) default firmware
asciilifeform: existed for as long as agri-civ.
phf: was giovanni di bicci de medici a lizard? :>
phf: what about his son cosimo?
asciilifeform: in same sense as pascal's 'pascaline' was 'a computer'
phf: i kind of always thought that if at any point you've killed any one of your enemies with poison or dagger, that elevates you from the lizard status
asciilifeform: in asciilifeform's cosomography, 'lizard' is not same item as king, baron, etc. of old times, but concretely artifact of 20th c. when slave rebellion began to seem inevitable (to retake the fruits of industrial rev) and subset of elite chose secrecy as defense strategy
asciilifeform: i.e. lizard not rules in a palace visited by public or issues decrees openly, but rather via curated meat puppets passed off as 'elite' ('presidents', 'ceo', etc)
asciilifeform: plebes thereby can kill, or 'vote out', or 'cancel', etc. these 'elites' and nuffin interesting happens, identical replacements are brought in
phf: i like your lizard cosmology
asciilifeform: fwiw there were earlier attempts at 'transition to covert rule', the 18th c. masonic wankages, but at the time proved maladaptive (power base was still agri-physiocratic and impossible to hide in the sense of e.g. 'who controls' today's printing press brrr)
phf: do you distinguish between lizards and dragons?
asciilifeform: 'dragon' aint a bound symbol in asciilifeform's cosmography, so nfi
asciilifeform: there are 'lizards'; 'sublizards'; and humans.
dulapbot: (asciilifeform) 2022-04-11 asciilifeform: fwiw in asciilifeform's cosmography, a sublizard is a 'human' who directly executes orders from lizard, while exposed to 'humans' in daily context
phf: a dragon is a competent lizard
asciilifeform: ( a 'sublizard' being a 'cutout' b/w lizards and humans )
asciilifeform not presumes to rank lizards by competence, given as not directly visible, and no 'standard candela' as in sense used by astronomers to sort stars by size
phf: like a dragon is a lizard that doesn't want its own house to fall down, as opposed to pure oportunism. "100 thousand will die, so that 100 million will live", as opposed to "i'll be in my bunker"
asciilifeform: in asciilifeform's pov, the folx with identifiable bunkers and 'i'ma sit there' are subs
phf: your brother paul is there, meet him on the docks. good luck, jc
asciilifeform: and, while it is possible that somewhere at top of pyramid someone is working other than by 'pure opportunism', it aint obvious to naked eye from 'earth' that this is so
asciilifeform: to naked eye seems as if all of'em are in '100 mil must die so that i can continue to get fresh strawberries flown in to my island 10y from nao' etc mode
asciilifeform: ( but it aint about mega-killoffs ~per se~ -- also includes '250 mil untermenschen must also get born, and not expect to live to 50 or use indoor plumbing' etc at same time as '100mil ameri-suburbanites gotta die' )
phf: when i mentioned we could put him on the priority list for the ambrosia vaccine he was so willing it was almost pathetic
asciilifeform: ultimately the contest is still re control of human hands, and optimization of slave quality, just as 8k y ago
asciilifeform: see also pelevin's 'heads in jars' stories from recent yrs, fully expands on subj comedically
asciilifeform: lizard programme aint identical to old-time monarch programme -- similar, yes, 'maintain pyramid shape and flow of goodies to the apex', but w/out the concept of 'legitimacy of rule', the latter -- obsolete
phf: i don't know if i have an overarching cosmology like that. like i wouldn't be able to tell you if it's emergent, or if there's a cabal, or …
phf: my attitude to the question of lizard is kind of like girl's attitude to supernatural "if we see a ghost in this forest at 3am, that would be awesome because it confirms the reality of it one way or another"
phf: "oh cool, there are grownups in charge" :D
asciilifeform: in former times, need for 'legitimacy' ritual and public throne limited 'laffer curve'(tm) (i.e. how much blood could drink from plebes)
phf: "because up until this point it really looked like it's a bunch of lucky psycopathic idiots running around, caught up in the historic process, unable to affect any meaningful lasting change"
asciilifeform: 20th c tech offered tempting promise of 'squeeze all'. orig. via concentration camp etc., later via 'soft' mechanisms
asciilifeform: phf: nobody's seen an electron either, must point out, not only ghost
asciilifeform: (before laughing, recall that this is an actual problem, it led to the uncontrolled proliferation of unseeable entities in 'modern' physics, i.e. the 'particle zoo' consisting largely of items which exist in fact strictly mathematically )
asciilifeform: the ghost hunter is merely a physicist without (usually) the req'd brain mass or tooling, but with same fundamentally healthy human inclination to model
phf: asciilifeform, i'm entirely ok with uncertainty, i'm a platonist
asciilifeform: (and usually with psychological vulnerabilities to 'martian pushers' to keep him hunting ghost rather than sumthing that one could actually put a bullet in)
asciilifeform: 'ok with uncertainty' is a++, but not means that cannot consider models.
phf: i mean world being held together by the will of Dazhbog is also an acceptable approach. there always will be dragons, both in collective and in subjective
asciilifeform: a model which successfully compresses known facts, and predicts new -- may still be a 'phlogiston' but still beats living shit outta 'i dun need a model, things Merely Happen By Will of Allah'(tm)
phf: there's a cool hard scifi that i don't remember the name of, and frankly i can't even verbalize what's going on, but it has "experience reality at subatomic, planck's time levels" as a plot device
asciilifeform: phf: there were several. australian, greg egan, had at least 1
asciilifeform: d00d bakes a cheat device that lets him walk around 'uncollapsed' (in the story, 'copenhagen' qm turns out to be real)
phf: yeap, schild's ladder
phf: you're too late and you can't do a damn thing about it! -- … except send you back to the people, in a body bag
phf: i spilled my drink
asciilifeform: was thinking of 'permutation city' iirc
signpost[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021188 << "god is dead" means never was. so at what mad?
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-01-20 14:50:38 phf[awt|deedbot]: signpost, well, the question "why live?" hasn't been answered, and if god *is* dead, we ought to be really mad at him
signpost[asciilifeform]: his Antichrist made it pretty clear to me that he viewed gods as authored items.
signpost[asciilifeform]: so not our stars, but ourselves, that we sit in a corpse rather than a better-authored god.
signpost[asciilifeform]: the "why live" one's also ill-formed imho. like one has an alternative where they might unlive.
signpost[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021189 << this arrogance where they can gracefully depopulate without unseating themselves, sure. go ahead.
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-01-20 14:50:39 asciilifeform[jonsykkel|awt|deedbot]: signpost: observe, 0 crash among the designated 'worker' untermenschen
signpost[asciilifeform]: anyway, someone smarter than me needs to come along and complete nietzsche's critique of the western mind, because the contemporary mode is something like a soul which has been abandoned by god. which is ill-formed, insane.
signpost[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021190 << this is no picture of heaven, man. that's the thing.
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-01-20 14:51:33 asciilifeform[5]: the bankmans spend 0 cycles on 'why live' puzzle -- difficult to end up scratching head 'why live' when snorting coke by the kilogram, surrounded by harem, on epstein islands
signpost[asciilifeform]: the guy's face isn't the picture of joy
signpost[asciilifeform]: even a 100% hedonic evaluation of value in life does not put his at the pinnacle
phf[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021273 << yeah, but that's a materliastic, rational view. on the archetypal, unexisted is the same as existed but died. the grief over such a death will still manifest as a trauma.
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-01-20 18:12:15 signpost: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021188 << "god is dead" means never was. so at what mad?
phf: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021277 << man, that's another materialistic, rational position. yes, one can't unlive, but this conclusion only leads to superficial "you're born anyway, so might as well enjoy it!" which is one step away from "live eat love". tell that this is somehow satisfying to your pysche
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-01-20 18:18:57 signpost: the "why live" one's also ill-formed imho. like one has an alternative where they might unlive.
signpost[asciilifeform]: clearly this is not "just" over here.
signpost[asciilifeform]: and yes, we're gonna have to go straight through the corpse and eat our way to the other side.
phf: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021285 << further, a nihilist is mad that his father-god died-unexisted on him
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-01-20 18:25:07 phf[awt]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021273 << yeah, but that's a materliastic, rational view. on the archetypal, unexisted is the same as existed but died. the grief over such a death will still manifest as a trauma.
signpost[asciilifeform]: where does the nihilist stand to make that evaluation?
signpost[asciilifeform]: anyway, this thing where we authored a coherent firmware for our right brains seemed to work pretty well. our rulers seem immiserated. maybe they consider authoring one of those that doesn't immiserate *them*.
signpost[asciilifeform]: they won't. but it's unclear their current lives are superior by their own standards.
signpost[phf]: phf: I don't know that the materialist label sticks.
phf[asciilifeform]: well, a nihilist is in a historic context. when an amerimutt looks up in a sistine chapel he necessarily feels anger, that's why amerimutt desided to destroy the whole world with woke
signpost[asciilifeform]: let god be real, and our culture destroyed its connection to him. the rebellion amounts to hatred of the freedom to make the turn.
signpost[asciilifeform]: I don't disagree; I just think it needs to be said that this mutt has shit for brains at a fundamental level, and not just in output
signpost[asciilifeform]: not just allowing itself to lazily internalize contradiction but aggressively demanding all follow.
phf: i have no idea what the past three messages mean :)
signpost[asciilifeform]: first one, how is someone claiming they hate that which does not exist for lacking the power to force them to believe it does anything but a parser error.
signpost[asciilifeform]: second, I'm not seeing as much light between your nihilist and the mutt.
signpost[asciilifeform]: eh. you get it.
signpost[asciilifeform]: from the top, why do our elites have faces that wear their *own* torment?
phf[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021304 << well, my point is that it doesn't have to be rational, and it's not. like what's the objection, that it doesn't make sense to be mad at a dead god, because he never existed to begin with OR that the statement makes no sense OR that the statement is false?
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-01-20 18:38:30 signpost: first one, how is someone claiming they hate that which does not exist for lacking the power to force them to believe it does anything but a parser error.
phf: a less romanticist perspective on similar idea might be, "the entire western project is build on the foundation of the bible, if bible is false, then ???"
phf: 􏿽because something similar happened to russian after the collapse of soviet union. not only was communism is a lie, but (we find out) that ussr was pretty evil at times. a rational perspective might be "well, it was a grand and terrible project, but look we built rockets, educated a
phf: 􏿽n giant country, built hospitals and factories, etc." but that's not the perspective the bulk of men take. the perspective is/was "what the fuck my life is a lie what do"
signpost[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021308 << objection's more me wondering why meditating on the "mad at dead god" concept doesn't produce a moment of enlightenment of the "doc, it hurts when I do this" variety.
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-01-20 18:44:01 phf[deedbot|awt]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021304 << well, my point is that it doesn't have to be rational, and it's not. like what's the objection, that it doesn't make sense to be mad at a dead god, because he never existed to begin with OR that the statement makes no sense OR
signpost[asciilifeform]: clearly it's insufficient for most, regardless of social status and other variables.
signpost[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021310 << getting pretty satisfied with the observation that it worked, and investigating what specifically.
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-01-20 18:47:46 phf[deedbot]: a less romanticist perspective on similar idea might be, "the entire western project is build on the foundation of the bible, if bible is false, then ???"
signpost[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021312 << right, how such a mind becomes a ruling elite, and stays stuck in this, entirely escapes me.
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-01-20 18:49:48 phf[deedbot]: 􏿽n giant country, built hospitals and factories, etc." but that's not the perspective the bulk of men take. the perspective is/was "what the fuck my life is a lie what do"
phf: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021313 << it does though, but the various attempts have been insufficient, unstable and chaotic in all kinds of ways.
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-01-20 19:18:09 signpost: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021308 << objection's more me wondering why meditating on the "mad at dead god" concept doesn't produce a moment of enlightenment of the "doc, it hurts when I do this" variety.
signpost[asciilifeform]: it's like the west produced its one zen koan, and then shot itself in the head on the spot, lol.
phf: i mean you had classical communism and fascism
signpost[asciilifeform]: right, these are pretty valiant efforts to reboot meaning, outcome aside.
phf[asciilifeform]: then you had all kinds of attempts, my favorite is of course saganism, but you had for example post-hippie "concensus buddhism" which is where i think wokeism comes from, etc.
phf: all of those attempts were compromised by nihilism, turning them into death cults
phf[asciilifeform]: like saganism, started with feynman "a scientist can appreciate the flower from its intricate biological and biochemical perspectives" or sagan's own "universe is woah", and it turned into a scientism, which is a pandemic, renewables and climate change death cult
phf: pest net is all kinds of broken today
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-01-20 14:12:02 phf[deedbot]: like in that old joke, one russian is decent guy, two russians are best friends, three russians are a revolutionary cell with a traitor
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: !!peer crtdaydreams
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021140 << all the fonts in the world and that's what you choose? -_-
phf: lol
phf: crtdaydreams, it was a joke at some point, and then it stuck. right before i switched to this ungodly combo it looked like this http://glyf.org/screenshots/pest-as-she-sail.png
signpost[asciilifeform]: crtdaydreams: do the peer thing in the IRC side for now, haven't brought it over here.
signpost[asciilifeform]: will do, but no time atm.
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: signpost last attempt deedbot didn't respond to !!help in pm
signpost[asciilifeform]: somebody else just used the peer command in the IRC net the other day, oughta work
dulapbot: (asciilifeform) 2023-01-18 unpx: !!peer unpx
signpost[asciilifeform]: phf: is it a given that humans need a "why live"?
signpost[asciilifeform]: stick a guy's head in a bucket of water and most of them want to live.
phf: signpost, hur hur, gotcha!
signpost[asciilifeform]: this isn't a throwaway comment.
phf: leave a guy doing something day in day out and he kind of starts questioning why he's doing it, always
phf: the whole fall from grace narrative is about the loss of the inherent meaning, and being made to question
phf: i mean, that's why you have victorian "noble savage" , or the 1970s rethinking of hunter gatherers
signpost[asciilifeform]: you know, you routinely claim I'm disrespectful while being disrespectful by default. western man wanting the entire cosmos to ring out with purpose for his wee self might be most of the problem.
signpost[asciilifeform]: it may never ring out like that again.
signpost[phf]: and good riddance, the thing wasn't built for us. we happened in it.
phf[asciilifeform]: yeah, but "stick a guy's head in a bucket" is an obviously gotcha comment!
signpost[asciilifeform]: it's not. it's a point to the baser urge far beneath the medium which contains the argument for why live
signpost[asciilifeform]: and if that isn't flowing up to drive the movement of the words, the underlying thing's probably broken.
phf: i don't know how that follows. "why live" is not ever about "why continue living", which is obviously a biological prerogative
signpost[asciilifeform]: but what is it?
signpost[asciilifeform]: it's not a rhetorical question. what's in there?
phf: why live is a shortcut question for "why create, maintain, enforce etc. a particular personally meaningful approach to life in a consistent and sustained manner"
signpost[asciilifeform]: *if* I want to live, I can get a lot of sane ethical notions which necessarily fall out of that as a consequence provided I try to well-define "I" and "live"
signpost[asciilifeform]: it's the only solid ground I see in there, to proceed outward from what's unavoidable.
signpost[asciilifeform]: when the lord appears to me I'll have to reevaluate, but he wont because I'd just tell him it's my right brain re-establishing dominance over my left anyway.
signpost[asciilifeform]: phf: what's personally meaningful? drives behavior in some self-sustaining way. get's a volitional chain reaction going?
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: signpost: deedbots generated an invalid key
signpost[asciilifeform]: for pest? or you can't decrypt its output?
phf: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021361 << i don't think that's true, and there are several reason why not, if you want to explore that direction
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-01-20 20:01:19 signpost: *if* I want to live, I can get a lot of sane ethical notions which necessarily fall out of that as a consequence provided I try to well-define "I" and "live"
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: er it doesn't look like a pestkey at all infact
signpost[asciilifeform]: of course I do.
signpost[asciilifeform]: crtdaydreams: first report of this, weird.
signpost[asciilifeform]: lemme see what it farted into its own deeb
crtdaydreams[phf]: it's just given me a hex number
phf[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021364 << personally meaningful meaning that you can derive meaning out of it. like if you went to chop wood , it is to make fire. "i chop wood to make fire" if you went to chop wood, it is because you want to destroy "i'm become death" etc. the narration around it
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-01-20 20:02:56 signpost: phf: what's personally meaningful? drives behavior in some self-sustaining way. get's a volitional chain reaction going?
signpost[asciilifeform]: crtdaydreams: encrypt and gpg me the output pls
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: can just send on pest?
signpost[asciilifeform]: don't see why not. I'm gonna trash the key anyway
phf: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021373 << whatever ethical notions you extract from wanting to leave will also be product of your entire western civ makeup
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-01-20 20:05:36 signpost: of course I do.
phf: *wanting to live rather
phf: your chains of causality themselves would be shaped by western logic, and in whatever reasoning you're going to have a variety of confounding variables to your thinking
phf: 􏿽so you can get a lof of "sane" ethical notions that "necessarily" fall out it, but both parts that i put in quotes will be fully compromised. as an armchair exercise it might give a solid vision, that another western similarly inclined individual might even share, but everything el
phf: 􏿽se about it will lack any kind of universality
phf: i don't even think that you can extract some kind of personal principles out of it, because they will fully depend on your environment also. like if you do that exercise from a safety of texan homestead as opposed to doing same exercise but you suddenly found yourself in eastern ukrain or in somalia
phf: it's a separate question of whether or not you agree with this, but that's also the major reason why death of god is such a big deal
signpost[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021387 << I think it's a fair criticism that what I think is obviously worthwhile about being alive is ambient "god created the X and it was good".
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-01-20 20:14:38 phf[awt|deedbot]: your chains of causality themselves would be shaped by western logic, and in whatever reasoning you're going to have a variety of confounding variables to your thinking
signpost[asciilifeform]: however I can't see where to stand to say it's not good.
signpost[asciilifeform]: suppose I teach my kid the stories *and* I leave out entirely whether they're true.
signpost[asciilifeform]: which I plan to do.
signpost[asciilifeform]: why would this have less impact than teaching "ant and the grasshopper" etc
signpost[asciilifeform]: finding myself pretty comfortable with jordan peterson's inquiry into whether their taking the form of fundamental truths of reality is true enough.
signpost[asciilifeform]: this might be what god is also, something true about reality we rendered in dreamlike terms.
signpost[asciilifeform]: could also be humans eat guns/pills/plastic until there aren't those left that are unsatisfied with ^
signpost[asciilifeform]: it'd be something like rejecting aztec mathematics on the grounds that the faces of the gods used to denote numbers don't exist.
asciilifeform entirely satisfied with, e.g., 'allfather odin said: die not the straw death' w/out requiring the character to actually exist & answer prayers etc
asciilifeform: for that matter, the believers themselves had rather complicated relationship with his existence (given the 'death of the gods' story, where universe reverts to frozen nuffin)
asciilifeform: (fwiw there may've been other mythologies which specified birth ~and death~ of the gods, and left the temporal relationship of the present to subj unspecified -- but asciilifeform not seen'em)
signpost[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021390 << ah. I'm not claiming universal shoulds exist in my skull, nor do I suppose they can ever be reinstantiated.
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-01-20 20:18:52 phf[deedbot|awt]: i don't even think that you can extract some kind of personal principles out of it, because they will fully depend on your environment also. like if you do that exercise from a safety of texan homestead as opposed to doing same exercise but you suddenly found yourself in east
signpost[asciilifeform]: I may be so disagreeable in character that this does not seem like a problem. in Ukraine I'd try to not get dead, and probably get dead.
signpost[asciilifeform]: in Texas I'll fart around on a laptop with a glass of wine
signpost[asciilifeform]: and the inability to reinstantiate the transcendent axiom might be a catastrophic blow. since I have no alternatives, I poke around in my own meat and in my humble interface with reality for what moves the sails.
phf: signpost, transcendental beliefs are, and i can't remember the right word right now, all encompasing, that is they represent the totality of experience
phf[asciilifeform]: they have a circular dependency graph
phf: so like they accomodate/have something for both people like josemaria escriva, a normy, a tramp, a criminal, etc.
phf: so like when gotcha people say "oh you saying you're only good because sky daddy told you so", the answer is "fuck off"
phf: because i might be an asshole who's afraid of hell, or i might be a genuine article catholic priest struggling with the way my whole life, but there's full range coverage
phf: and there's a circular dependency graph, a criminal who found the way because of fear, sustains to some extent a saint, who found his way through inner struggle
phf: now, the trick with "replace god with X" is to find a similar kind of coverage, because the more people are uncovered the worse your overal situation is
phf: the most obvious issue with bible as fables, or with fables in general is "fuck off, dad, i'm doing onlyfans"
phf: and there's no recourse
signpost[asciilifeform]: path out of the corpse of god might involve a hell of a lot of death filtering away these.
signpost[asciilifeform]: appears to be where we're at.
signpost[asciilifeform]: this isn't me giving a tough-guy speech. don't see another option on the table.
signpost[asciilifeform]: this is at least where nietzsche left things, that gods, culture, and the soul are authored items and only men who can author without going mad will survive.
signpost[asciilifeform]: and, he went mad.
phf: ride the tiger
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021122 << I feel like this is too easily boiled down to "muh commies" sure it makes sense linearly, but it's missing something and I can't put my finger on it.
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-01-20 14:05:59 phf[awt|deedbot]: and i think that this internalized demoralization in the west and in us is instilled since early childhood with various "share your toys", "let john play", and various other forms of be nice
phf[asciilifeform]: your framing, not mine
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-01-20#1021415 << that's interesting because it assumes a common moral alignment, both parties have a not dissimilar view of what is right and wrong, this discourse brings to mind Is God a Tao?.
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2023-01-20 22:10:00 phf[deedbot|awt]: so like when gotcha people say "oh you saying you're only good because sky daddy told you so", the answer is "fuck off"
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: I'm underqualified to make any contributions though. I'm still mostly unfamiliar with the nietzchean "god ded" onion below the skin.
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: The best I can do (which imo more valuable to reflect on) is "why die?" more or less moving on to "memento mori"
phf[asciilifeform]: signpost, laters
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: It's rather evident the lizards are crawling after some form of digital immortality and/or trancendance, if just soley to postpone death. Whilist "memento mori" is a more noble perspective imo, a base fear can be a pretty powerful motivator.
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: In that sense, also a death cult. :)
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