Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2022-04-24 | 2022-04-26 → ↓
crtdaydreams: billymg: couple gripes re: gentoo tutorial; no mention of disabling TRIM on NVME and SSD drives, no mention of binding /run, no mention of license masking for e.g. linux-firmware, no mention that linux-firmware is a necessary dep for genkernel and mentioning so before compilation. Not enuff chiptune.
crtdaydreams: Other than that, pretty solid. The soystemd blacklist is pretty neato and it's straightforward with the minimum expectation that the reader is competent enough to research things i.e. lilo.conf themselves. If ya wanted to add to it in any other way, mebbe virtualization &&|| reiserfs? Former might be worthy of seperate tutorial though.
crtdaydreams: probably not for complete newbs unless up for challenge without usual ``handholding''
crtdaydreams is currently recompiling due to aforementioned linux-firmware dep :<
crtdaydreams: that and shit don't boot on my hardware without it, even being desktop
crtdaydreams: ah fack. nao boot hang at "Mounting /dev/shm..."
crtdaydreams: s/gentoo/cuntoo
crtdaydreams: shitbox dun wanna run... it's hanging at usb like last time I tried.
billymg: morning crtdaydreams, thank you for the feedback
billymg: what do you mean 'hanging at usb'? maybe i or someone else here can help
billymg: also what are your specs? cpu/mobo?
billymg: crtdaydreams: i also don't believe that linux-firmware is a required dep of genkernel
billymg: on my recent htpc build i used genkernel for building the initramfs but never had to install linux-firmware. the only reason i needed it on the thinkpad x1 was for the intel wifi chip
bitbot: Logged on 2022-04-16 19:32:32 billymg: http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-04-12#1095303 << i actually just spent a couple days last week putting together a gentoo file server / htpc out of some spare parts. was a fun project
signpost: see /etc/genkernel.conf
signpost: there's a flag called FIRMWARE in there.
verisimilitude: So, who has the better UDP library between us, asciilifeform?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: iirc already commented ( asciilifeform prefers his orig.; tho imho snipping the .c glue out is nice, can't actually snip out all of it w/out losing portability, and in fact gnat per se includes over9000 such glues so yer still stuck w/ a c compiler on the box)
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-06 12:46:19 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: loox like exactly what you described (i.e. similar to asciilifeform's mmap binding, where imports instead of .c)
shinohai: "So who has the better hammer, Lowes or Home Depot?"
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: in other aspects: imho relying on machine's 'htons' etc. for constructing/disasming ip addrs is Wrong Thing, ideally oughta nail these down (if going for the 'throw out unix smell' flavour)
asciilifeform: aside from this -- shinohai's hammers.
asciilifeform would perk up ears if sumbody wrote e.g. bare metal ip stack where tx/rx udp , rather than 'reinvent bicycle'
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-03-17 14:39:01 asciilifeform: the fundamental proble, mangol , is the ~iron~. e.g. valiant attempts at 'from 0 os' from 2010s no longer function on anyffin you can currently purchase. (or even good % of vintage irons from period) on acct of 'peripheral babel'
verisimilitude: I wanted to use Ada facilities for the endian conversions, but couldn't find what to use.
verisimilitude: I could've sworn there were an appropriate constant for such, but only found a similar constant which wasn't.
signpost: https://clisp.sourceforge.io/ << "How are you using CLISP? Tell us your story!"
signpost: uh, like, to bootstrap sbcl.
asciilifeform still thinks about attempting to revive kyoto common lisp
signpost: huh, I'd assumed the clisp authors had to be jewish.
signpost: took about 5sec to find naggum beating them up for being idiots
shinohai: signpost nice naggum link, is surprisingly relevant now as much as ever. :)
verisimilitude: No, but they've a history of being annoying.
verisimilitude: An example I've used before, although not one which has actually happened, would be signalling an error if a symbol named NIGGER were ever created.
verisimilitude: Signalling an error for the PRC timezone is close.
signpost: letting peasants stop being religious was a catastrophe.
verisimilitude: Why is worshipping one Jewish god better than worshipping a different Jewish god?
signpost: what replaced either was worshipping the state, which is something the critters have been told responds to their feelings.
verisimilitude: At least the state exists.
signpost: it does?
signpost: at any rate, that comment was based upon the interpretation where they put it in for "political" reasons in the 90s
signpost: another is they got some menorah.mil money at some point.
billymg: http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-04-25#1098755 << shouldn't have had to mess with this anyway, it's off / commented by default (at least that's what i'm seeing, and i didn't have to edit this conf file at all on my recent build without linux-firmware)
bitbot: Logged on 2022-04-25 17:53:16 signpost: there's a flag called FIRMWARE in there.
dulapbot: (trilema) 2016-12-21 asciilifeform: 'MINE -- WORX!111'
billymg: i got all the pieces of backlinks fully working yesterday (backfill script, bot component, reader component), hopefully have it live later this week
billymg: signpost: or in /g/ terms: "works on my machine"
billymg: speaking of forbidden words, looking forward to people testing the limits of elon musk presents twitter and realizing nothing has really changed
bitbot: Logged on 2022-04-26 00:12:42 verisimilitude: An example I've used before, although not one which has actually happened, would be signalling an error if a symbol named NIGGER were ever created.
billymg: has anyone else also noticed the shift in media political coverage away from covering so-called "actual" politicians to covering corporate leaders as though they were politicians?
shinohai: As long as twitter remains good trolling grounds, I don't care.
billymg: this twitter thing being a good example
signpost: billymg: yes, or for that matter only certain corporate leaders. worth considering why.
billymg: and just like broken campaign promises, headlines will read "bezos and tim cook block elon's latest move to allow saying faggot on the platform"
billymg: "musk slam's bezos saying he will appeal the decision"
billymg: etc. etc.
billymg: signpost: my thinking is it helps transition people to the new reality. the corporate leaders have been in control for a while but now plebs get to fight and cheer for their favorite team like in red vs. blue
billymg: or perhaps the old stuff just wasn't selling anymore
signpost: dunno that any of it is centrally coordinated. emanates from the values of the culture.
billymg: not saying it's centrally coordinated, i like asciilifeform's way of putting it, they're playing jazz
verisimilitude: I don't give a fuck about Twitter.
signpost: the way I see it, a guy just dropped eleventy billions to keep his meme fanclub.
billymg: i think it's part of a transition to a new red vs. blue, media coverage of biden vs. whoever will go down while coverage of woke ceos vs. based ceos goes up
billymg: last election made it obvious votes no longer matter, even superficially, so naturally people will lose interest in that game and need a new struggle to sink energy into
verisimilitude: Oh, thehorrors.
thehorrors: Hello
thehorrors: I finally found it
thehorrors: I shall like to find out how to become the citizen of the glorious Republic, but it takes time of course as all good things do
verisimilitude: Come back a few years ago.
verisimilitude: As far as I know, TMSR no longer exists.
verisimilitude: Someone here may disagree.
thehorrors: But the infrastructure is still all there? What happened?
thehorrors: You are all here, is that not enough?
billymg: verisimilitude, thehorrors: can't speak for everyone but i agree with signpost on that matter
bitbot: Logged on 2022-03-21 18:46:20 signpost: still calls himself ideologically republican.
signpost: don't be a joiner, thehorrors.
signpost: who are you, and what brings you by?
thehorrors: Well, I won't, signpost. Don't like to bother people for no good reason. I just wanted to find the place (and it took some effort) and say hi for now.
thehorrors: It would be extremely sad for me to find ruin as verisimilitude suggests.
signpost: are you what, afraid to answer what'd be normal conversation away from your keyboard?
thehorrors: Sorry, I don't understand
signpost: I asked you who you are, and why you came.
thehorrors: I am just a guy who is trying to find out how to participate in the only ecosystem I've found tolerable so far.
signpost: this is a really cowardly answer, you realize.
thehorrors: Is that not good enough? You can't expect me to disclose all personal details? No I don't realize
signpost: yes, the idea that I'd want to interact with someone who can say nothing of himself when introducing himself is preposterous.
signpost: he's either coyly juvenile, deranged, or dissembling.
signpost: supposing you're for some reason averse to saying what your mother said when you popped out, who cares about that.
signpost: that's not typically the most interesting thing about a person, and certain other weird creatures here have the same preference.
thehorrors: There might be a misunderstanding. I appreciate that.
thehorrors: Perhaps I am not used to real time communication like this, please forgive me
thehorrors: I am an engineer, I am trying to set up a blog and make a few things. I am interested in bitcoin among other things.
shinohai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-25#1098834 << Do you normally communicate via carrier pigeon?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-25 21:41:23 thehorrors: Perhaps I am not used to real time communication like this, please forgive me
thehorrors: One thing I am trying to figure out is a good way to communicate with the wider world. I've looked into the billymg's wordpress
signpost: cool, happened upon his blog, thus read about tmsr?
verisimilitude: I'm the other weird creature, thehorrors.
verisimilitude: I may have misread.
shinohai: $ticker btc usd
busybot: Current BTC price in USD: $40546.5
signpost: sure, and also an example of the nom de plume saying plenty re: "who dis"
thehorrors: yep, and loper-os and others. One thing still not sure about is Pizzaro - does it still exist?
verisimilitude: Was mine included in that set, thehorrors?
signpost: thehorrors: not under that name, but asciilifeform still runs an ISP. that is also his blog, loper-os.
signpost: anyway thehorrors, was giving you a taste of tmsr culture like you asked! glad you elaborated, and welcome.
thehorrors: Oh thank you. Sorry got distrated. No, I understand the immune system
thehorrors: I think
thehorrors: I don't have anything in particular to show for now, because it is sort of a chicken and egg problem
thehorrors: How do you put something out there if you don't know a good way to do it. But how do you find a good way to do it if no one knows who the hell you are
thehorrors: shinohai: yes, pretty much the pigeons. Never used the IRC you see
verisimilitude: I just started writing is how I did it.
verisimilitude: I write for myself before all others.
thehorrors: verisimilitude, I am not sure I read yours - very likely, what is it called? Yes, I understand, write it and they will read
verisimilitude: Write it and they will ignore it.
verisimilitude: Write anyway.
shinohai: Well there you go thehorrors .... you can make first blog post on the technicalities of RFC 2549.
thehorrors: verisimilitude - I think I missed yours, I'll be honest. But definitely saw your comments here and ther
verisimilitude: Oh; well read mine, then.
thehorrors: shinohai: what to write is not exactly the problem, the problem is I don't know if it is safe to write. Maybe I am too scared of nothing
verisimilitude: I'm likely more paranoid, thehorrors, and I still write.
thehorrors: so you suggest just fuck it? I don't know man. Maybe you are right
verisimilitude: Nobody wants to read from some wuss.
thehorrors: I mean asciilifeform writes all kinds of stuff openly
thehorrors: That's true too
verisimilitude: Hear that, thehorrors has accused asciilifeform of being a wuss.
thehorrors: what, no]
verisimilitude: I'm joking.
thehorrors: heh, programming poetry, huh?
thehorrors: Yeah, I am also looking into Ada.
thehorrors: One thing I don't understand: a few people seem to be keen on lisp, yet I haven't seen a lisp project in the sphere yet - it's either Ada or... python?
thehorrors: there are a copule of C programs I've seen for pest I think - but no lisp.
thehorrors: And the TRB seems to be kept in C++? Is there any interest in lisp/ada bitcoin implementation? Would it make sense?
verisimilitude: Pest needs to be fast, and it's very rigid.
verisimilitude: Lisp only gets in the way for such programs.
thehorrors: Is SBCL not fast enough?
thehorrors: Also, wouldn't pest benefit from gc?
thehorrors: I don't know about ada performance yet - just started learning it. Seems a little slow?
billymg: http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-04-26#1098864 << i thought like this when i first joined the chan and put up my blog. it's all in your head, no one's going to "cancel" you
bitbot: Logged on 2022-04-26 02:07:03 thehorrors: shinohai: what to write is not exactly the problem, the problem is I don't know if it is safe to write. Maybe I am too scared of nothing
billymg: if that's what you meant by whether it's "safe"
thehorrors: billymg: yeah, I am slowly moving towards accepting that. But not exactly cancelling is my concern
bitbot: Logged on 2022-04-26 01:43:46 thehorrors: I am an engineer, I am trying to set up a blog and make a few things. I am interested in bitcoin among other things.
thehorrors: You see I am interested in cryptography among other things (to further elaborate on signpost's demands for more information)
thehorrors: Am interested in application of cryptocurrencies - as a medium of exchange. I am quite unhappy with their current state to be honest as well
thehorrors: Anyways, I have a lot of thoughts on this topic that should probably go into the blog. And no, I am not interested in markets for "illegal" products
shinohai: The only medium of exchange "cryptocurrencies" serve is to be converted to Bitcoin proper.
billymg: most folks here only interested in bitcoin, and this variety specifically
bitbot: Logged on 2021-11-19 16:19:42 asciilifeform: signpost: re 'why pest' -- asciilifeform is a btc aficionado of the (nearly extinct, possib.) old school -- would like to live in world where can get paid in uninflating, untaxable coinz, and buy necessities of live in same. doubt that anyone living nao will live to see such thing, but asciilifeform specifically interested in work which could make it at least conceivable.
thehorrors: billymg: I am sort of a computer/embedded/software weird mix
thehorrors: Yeah well you see, I don't think bitcoin and "getting paid" are exactly compatible. I am with him most of the way here
thehorrors: Pretty much one of my biggest interests is what you quote
billymg: thehorrors: re: cryptography, you've probably seen asciilifeform's ffa then. if not, sounds like it might be of interest to you
billymg: thehorrors: why not 'getting paid' in btc?
billymg: (or paying with btc, similarly)
thehorrors: It's a big topic, but I don't think bitcoin in its current form is that. Yea, FFA is partially why I started Ada
thehorrors: I don't think public ledger is any good, for starters.
thehorrors: I don't think bitcoin is currency at all actually (or should be)
billymg: and yet some people and businesses accept it as payment
billymg: thehorrors: you can search the logs re: tradeoffs of a public ledger but iirc discussions usually conclude with something like "not ideal, but only way to prove no one is inflating the supply"
thehorrors: I know. But is not more of a commodity? What do you think of its deflationary property? I have doubts. I'll check the logs too
thehorrors: I have a bad feeling that it will deflate itself to the point of heat death though
thehorrors: As for the ledger - has Monero been considered (feel free to banish me for blasphemy)
billymg: thehorrors: no one cares how many zeros to the right of the decimal point there are, if it eventually comes to that because too many people accidentally all their coins
thehorrors: I also didn't like the whitepaper emphasizing that the PoW must be completely useless - intentionally
thehorrors: (maybe it was in bmoney - sorry)
thehorrors: whitepaper's reference anyways
billymg: thehorrors: the monero creator himself used to hang out here
thehorrors: which makes it not even a commodity in a real way, but definitionally a fiat
billymg: more recently tied up with other business
bitbot: Logged on 2021-08-03 02:13:08 asciilifeform: ok, fluffypony's extradition judgement (txt) is pure gold. rec'd read for erryone tuned in.
thehorrors: btw, I am just trying to have a discussion, not my intention to attack btc
thehorrors: I am just trying to really understand its nature and I am skeptical
verisimilitude: It's fine; I don't think Bitcoin cares.
thehorrors: interesting, I didn't know about fluffypony
verisimilitude: It figures he would end up being abused.
thehorrors: But I think Monero is a good step in the right direction with the concealed ledger is all
thehorrors: anyways, I should stop spamming here and get to goddamn writing finally. But that's the problem isn't it? With cryptocurrency it is very easy to find your balls in a vice
thehorrors: Because blockchain is approaching the holy grail, and mortals cannot have that
verisimilitude: Remember to think before writing.
thehorrors: Hahah, what I am getting ranty huh?
verisimilitude: Just write; my first article was a masturbation joke.
thehorrors: I would really like if you pointed out mistakes - one reason I am looking for places like this
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-25 22:05:39 thehorrors: shinohai: what to write is not exactly the problem, the problem is I don't know if it is safe to write. Maybe I am too scared of nothing
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-03-02 11:49:40 asciilifeform: trinque: re p2p -- asciilifeform will be the 1st to agree, but with caveat : the most effective policeman atm is in ~people's heads~. i.e. folx aint even using the ~old~ p2p nets for anyffing interesting, afaik ;
asciilifeform: welcome to #a, thehorrors . i'ma assume you know of the logs.
thehorrors: hi asciilifeform, thank you
asciilifeform hands fulla heathen biz, will let other folx grill the n00b tonight
asciilifeform: !!key thehorrors
deedbot: Not registered.
asciilifeform: ^ rec to fix.
thehorrors: I know about the logs - do you guys use any client to read them?
asciilifeform: ^ instructions
thehorrors: yep, I'll get on that
verisimilitude: He's already well-done, asciilifeform.
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-25#1098905 << iirc monero had a pretty nasty new coin generation bug, arguably obscured by lack of this.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-25 22:29:48 thehorrors: I don't think public ledger is any good, for starters.
asciilifeform: thehorrors: log pg loads on standard www browsers, incl. e.g. 'lynx'
asciilifeform: thehorrors: paste the link behind a line (speaker's handle) when answering, as seen above.
asciilifeform: notation for links also illustrated above -- [link][caption] .
signpost: assuming this is done without bugs, then one's asking a philosophical question regarding accounts being a public or private matter.
signpost holds that this being public makes for a better society.
thehorrors: not following the information about the link
signpost: business done in the sight of all tends to stay more honest.
signpost: thehorrors: when you're replying to something, pop the link in here and make direct reference to it.
mats: anyone have a link to hanbot's short story about the kid with the public key?
mats: can't remember any relevant keywords or find it on her blog
signpost: above I said that the worry that speaking freely is unsafe is a policeman in your head.
mats: not that one
mats: the kid had a predictable passphrase cracked, iirc
mats: ah, it is that one
thehorrors: I don't know guys, my client doesn't let me get the link from the nick
jonsykkel: on the website
asciilifeform: thehorrors: click the nick, url navigated to is the link
asciilifeform: thehorrors: yes, on logs www, not from irc client
thehorrors: oh duh, I see what you mean now
thehorrors: got it
thehorrors: to reply, insert the link from the log
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-25 23:08:54 asciilifeform: thehorrors: yes, on logs www, not from irc client
thehorrors: it shall be done
thehorrors: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-04-25#1098954 << I appreciate that, but there is a lot to unpack in that philosophy. I think it's an (1) issue of scale and (2) issue of environment
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-25 22:56:22 signpost: assuming this is done without bugs, then one's asking a philosophical question regarding accounts being a public or private matter.
thehorrors: for example, public ledger makes for better society in an environment absent of violent "regulators"
thehorrors: until then one might argue that it makes for worse society, because it is easier to deal with dissidents
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-04-25 22:59:06 signpost: above I said that the worry that speaking freely is unsafe is a policeman in your head.
signpost: we probably need to separate whether we're talking about the state of the currency system, vs attribution of mutations of that state.
signpost: one can do pretty well concealing the latter on bitcoin if they want.
signpost: former's necessary to trustlessly confirm that the system works as claimed.
thehorrors: Concealing - not according to the research I've seen around. It seems like public ledger is just too convenient for analysis
thehorrors: the trustless system - I agree somewhat, but I have doubts. I am curious about homomorphic encryption
signpost: having doubts is a good reason to have as much of the system inspectable as possible imho.
thehorrors: that does not contradict what I am saying though - can it be inspectable in its encrypted state?
thehorrors: there is also an issue of "cash", what do you think about that? should bitcoin be "digital cash"? Cash is completely opaque to everyone
signpost: whether it can, I don't want to live in a world where the power structure is covert. I already have one of those.
thehorrors: that's a question of how the power structure is formed. That's another topic altogether. For example, one might argue that bitcoin *is* a covert power structure, is it not?
thehorrors: how *a* power structure is formed, rather
signpost: that contradicts your complaint that the ledger is public.
thehorrors: no, not really. Again - it's probably a bigger topic for a different time/medium. These are separate issues what I am trying to say in a nutshell.
signpost: your resistance to direct communication is annoying. we're not going to be doing the thing where we skitter sideways across categories.
signpost: the medium here has supported conversations on such topics for years, including this one. it's no barrier.
thehorrors: Okay, sounds good. I am not trying to be indirect. Let me get into this then
signpost: right now bitcoin is a form of digital property which appears to be holding value. whether it's a power structure, or has any measurable effect on the totalitarian state is a hypothetical at the moment.
signpost: please do.
signpost: I also consider bitcoin itself to be experimental, and as such it's necessary to treat it with utmost suspicion. we're a blip in history of the way into the experiment.
signpost: it might very well be that a public ledger becomes *more* totalitarian than the bureaucratic state could manage; however, must we rush to assume we've gotten the first layer correct, immediately tack on five more layers of experimental cryptography, each one a long bet?
signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log-search?q=mining+is+a+bug&chan=all << you might find some interesting conversations here.
signpost: I don't think anyone thinks bitcoin is perfect, which is the problem, but the solution most people reach for is tacking more shit to the side.
thehorrors: okay, that's a slightly separate train of thought. On that I would say that the issue is not in currency at all, the solution would ultimately be education, wouldn't you agree?
signpost: consider that if someone else is saying the things are related, you may be the one lacking the common thread.
asciilifeform: thehorrors: consider that bitcoin is of interest because solves (such as it does) several problems at once, and with reasonable complexity
dulapbot: Logged on 2020-05-15 22:15:23 asciilifeform: bitcoin remains a thing because it sorta, partially, solved ~some~ of the problems ('who gets to decide what is a coin?' 'who gets to decide when counts as 'spent' ?' 'what is incentive for participating?') none of the supposedly-competing items proposed any meaningfully different working solutions ( plenty of braindamaged ones tho )
asciilifeform: for instance, you can determine mechanically how many coins have been mined, and, similarly, verify that no one is 'magicking' coin outta thin air (i.e. via means other than mining as defined in the protocol)
signpost: on the subject of totalitarian states, it's not a given that they are destroyed by those working in secret.
signpost: historically they tend to rot and die, rather than this.
asciilifeform: ( afaik all of the various crackpot schemes suggested for 'increased anonymity' weaken this ability )
signpost: perhaps swarmed by meat when near enough to death to be overwhelmed.
thehorrors: okay so here is my disconnect: one subject is making a "good currency", good means of exchange. Another issue is making a "good economy" - a well working machine of production. And yet another one is to suffocate the tax-collecting state through constructing a parallel economy.
thehorrors: There are three related but separate topics, that's why I (and you - to me) seem to be jumping around
asciilifeform: thehorrors: the 'parallel economy' has existed for as long as the tax-collecting state. the aim of bitcoinism is to bring it to yer desk, rather than 'make exist'
thehorrors: So make it more convenient?
asciilifeform: from one pov. tho observe that most blackmarket folx do not presently find bitcoin at all convenient, from their pov
thehorrors: I also think the black market itself is part of the problem. Folks should trade food and clothes for bitcoin for it to make effect
signpost: there's an unspoken political goal here which is providing foundation for what you're discussing.
signpost: is it to destroy that state? fix it?
thehorrors: and black market adds stigma. Essentially, bitcoin needs mass adoption for it to be effective to replace the economy
thehorrors: I don't think you can fix it
signpost: right, so replace.
signpost: the only possibility I've ever considered was establishing something which could grow into the space caused by the other thing's death.
thehorrors: I don't think I understand - can you elaborate?
signpost: you are not going to shut the thing with nukes off before the thing with nukes shuts itself off.
thehorrors: okay, sure
signpost: there is probably not even at that time an opportunity to replace it, but if so, then.
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