Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

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asciilifeform: so humble , these cars ! american fuhrermobile could probably fit them !
BingoBoingo: Start drive with feeling of accomplishment after having turned motor over with own hards
BingoBoingo: Or hire mulch guy to turn over car!
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: ofc. discretion is the name of the game in jp, posturing the name in us.
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: retrofit for manual crank would be free in your world ? or also hire mulch man to wrench this into existence as well
BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: I'm just trying to help you continue the natural order of things and move on to next car
mircea_popescu: which will be made of wood.
BingoBoingo: Fron the Ark
pete_dushenski: !~google peniscar
BingoBoingo: because Jew
jhvh1: pete_dushenski: ¿Pellizcar o peñiscar ? | Castellano Actual - Universidad de Piura: <>; Urban Dictionary: penis car: <>; Peniscar - Dicionário Online de Português: <>
pete_dushenski: actually morgan uk still makes cars with wood frames. ash iirc.
pete_dushenski: !#s morgan 3-wheeler
a111: 4 results for "morgan 3-wheeler",
pete_dushenski: but ya, i'll move on to next car at next btc price level, or next kid, or next spring, or something.
asciilifeform: next car... with wings?
pete_dushenski: uhh lemme think about that NO!
asciilifeform: wai not
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Jews are afraid of heights
asciilifeform likes heights
pete_dushenski loves flying in commercial craft, gliding off clifftops. must be getting more gentilic than he realised.
pete_dushenski: there's literally nowhere better to think and write than at 30k feet.
BingoBoingo: You're just a cynic and also proud patriot like Vasily Zaytsev
BingoBoingo: brb, sleep
pete_dushenski: on a plane there's (ideally) no wifi, no one talking to you, just the pen and the page. i miss traveling as much as i did the last decade as much as anything for the rarefied air free from distraction.
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: mostly because airport is further from maison than offices and properties i frequent.
pete_dushenski: in its infinite wisdom, the city decided to turn the municipal airport into 'mixed use urban development', leaving only international airport 40km from house.
ben_vulpes: pete_dushenski: 2k? for a /starter/?
ben_vulpes: do you also pay for oil changes at the dealership?
ben_vulpes: i had a full transmission swap done on the civic for less
a111: Logged on 2016-12-19 16:59 asciilifeform: neato ben_vulpes , is this mirror somewhere /
ben_vulpes: in which the inadequacies of wget for archiving an apache server become apparent or something
ben_vulpes: my patience for wwwtronic fiddling is rapidly eroding
ben_vulpes: << low dough calolxit twittering
Framedragger: << lulzy. "Facebook does not permit “verbal attacks” on a “protected category,” according to the documents. These self-determined categories are currently based on a number of factors, including: sex, religious affiliation, gender, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, national origin, disability or serious illness. Some of these groups contain sub-categories"
Framedragger: "that receive extra protection (for example, under “age,” criteria such as “youth” and “senior citizen” receive priority)."
Framedragger: "A sentence reportedly containing an expletive directly followed by a reference to a religious affiliation (for example: “f*cking Muslims”) is not allowed. However, the same does not go for the term “migrants,” as migrants are allegedly only a “quasi protected category.” Additionally, Facebook reportedly allows for posts that could be deemed hateful against migrants under certain circumstances. For example, a statement
Framedragger: "such as “migrants are dirty” is allowed, whereas “migrants are dirt” isn’t."
ben_vulpes: !#s enumerating badness
a111: 7 results for "enumerating badness",
ben_vulpes: ahaha first line even mentions facebook
Framedragger: nice foreshadowing.. fb appears to have invented a whole calculus.. "PC speech + PC speech = PC speech", but "PC + NPC = NPC" lol
ben_vulpes: "catholics did it!"
ben_vulpes: anyways the notion that anyone on facebook is anything other than a non-player character is hysterical on the face
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski you know airline pilots have mostly girls, yes
mircea_popescu: << dawg, if you're gonna link to stupid-woman-but-tits venues a la twitter, at least make it be about stupid woman that has nice tits. wtf is this ugly dumb fuck.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-21 08:48 ben_vulpes: << low dough calolxit twittering
mircea_popescu: << the evolution of paul graham's internet : first, ashley madison made a site where scripted "women" interacted with loser men ; then, a bunch of kids made a bunch of sites where scripted "users" interact with scripted "users" : facebook, reddit, instagram, twitter, you name it. ALL of them, simply put.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-21 08:58 ben_vulpes: anyways the notion that anyone on facebook is anything other than a non-player character is hysterical on the face
deedbot: << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1777...6333 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <>; ' (Unknown GB)
deedbot: << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1457...8773 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <>; ' (Unknown AT)
mircea_popescu: and speaking of facebook users etc, here's a reminder as to how the other half lives :
mircea_popescu: (incidentally, isn't it fucking weird that the progre and libtard preoccupy themselves with economic inequality so, but never seriously considered intellectual inequality ?)
mircea_popescu: "By adding "required" to the Answer box input tag solves the captcha requirement issue." is prolly the best part.
jurov: you mean "no child left behind"?
mircea_popescu: no see, that's about education. ie, equality ~of chances~ or whatever the fuck. the issue however is equality of substance.
mircea_popescu: it's maybe unfair that whoever is running that "shop" doesn't have as much money as i do. it is maybe unfair that whoever is running that "shop" didn't go to as good a school, or have as good parents, or as alf points out, didn't have as well housed a library at home. fine.
mircea_popescu: but it is CERTAINLY unfair that he's fucking dumbs as rocks and i am not.
mircea_popescu: the rest... eh, whatever.
mircea_popescu: i'd take not being dumb over not being poor.
deedbot: << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 2587...3423 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <>; ' (Unknown BR RJ)
deedbot: << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 2284...1991 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <>; ' ( FR)
asciilifeform: 'libcurl's implementation of the printf() functions triggers a buffer overflow when doing a large floating point output. The bug occurs when the conversion outputs more than 255 bytes.'
mircea_popescu: ajajaja wait wait, i could hijack any bot loading trilema via curl ?
asciilifeform: when does curl even ~do~ a floatingpoint printf
trinque: probably a transfer rate switch somebody just had to have
trinque: hm, nah
trinque: asciilifeform: << they just have copies of all of them in libcurl ?!
asciilifeform: evidently
jurov: it's exploitable only if someone were calling curl_printf with like "%0128.128L" format string, no?
deedbot: << Trilema - How the other half lives - a very seriously funny article.
deedbot: << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1716...1243 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <>; ' (Unknown GB)
mircea_popescu: so it occurs to me that the ~only cold war ideological response to totalitarianism (more or less soros' mental construct of "an open society") is kneejerk nonsense of the prime order, very much in line with the proposition that "subverting cryptography increases security" or "gun bans increase security" etcetera.
mircea_popescu: evidently the correct solution is ~a correctly closed society~, not the hallucination of an open one. but then again the republic takes thinking, and so...
asciilifeform: dafuq is 'open society'
asciilifeform: ...shorthand for 'soros gets to open everybody's mailz' or wat.
mircea_popescu: it's actually ~why~ it was decided aol may sell internet subscriptions.
mircea_popescu: pretty much everything current in "progressive" circles is built on that ideological platform.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anyway, soros is not particularly relevant, bergson-popper-etc
asciilifeform: i always parsed the aol thing as, from lizard pov, 'thinking folks are gettin' uppity, let's ddos'em'
mircea_popescu: well in retrospect it may be whatever, but at the time it was more of the same "human potential unlocking" gargle.
asciilifeform: ( << vintage soros lulz )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform during ro elections all sorts of "luminaries" of a very evident mercenary bent did pieces about how soros ain't that bad - wasn't even ever convicted!
mircea_popescu: i was amused at what the us state dept imagines average romanian may believe.
asciilifeform: the average 'human potential' furniture could probably be persuaded to believe everything, and its opposite, 'six times before breakfast'.
mircea_popescu: yes, and the average piece of fresh river mud can be fucked (in any hole!) even more times, even more before breakfast.
mircea_popescu: it ~may~ give you VD ; but it's not making you any children.
mircea_popescu: that's, i suppose, the actual point here : that while building chumpatrons ~is~ feasible ; and in many actually encountered circumstances it ~is~ productive ; nevertheless a chumpatron is not a tank. not merely by coincidence of design, like a spoon is not a fork, but could pass for a fork in a bind. a chumpatron is not a tank fundamentally, nor could ever be a tank of any kind to any degree, much like a stove can't cool your
mircea_popescu: food ; nor the fridge heat it.
mircea_popescu: finally giving a formal dress to a long held but not expressed notion that it is a waste of one's time to try building chumpatrons.
mircea_popescu: they ~are~ destined for a blow up, willy-nilly, because they're not tanks.
asciilifeform: the builder, unless he is exceptionally stupid himself, understands that it will explode. his idea is simply to be somewhere far, far away, when it does.
deedbot: << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1408...9327 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <>; ' (Unknown AT)
deedbot: << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1444...4107 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <>; ' (Unknown BR RJ)
deedbot: << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1472...9539 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <>; ' ( FR)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, but see the fundamental problem with this ? why should i wish to be far away from my life's work ? what am i, some sort of celenterate ?
mircea_popescu: how exactly does one defend against the very sartre-ian angoisses in this context ?
asciilifeform: folx launching rockets to pluto are also 'far away from life's work'
mircea_popescu isn't launching such rockets.
mircea_popescu: while alienation is a fact of life ; i scarcely see the merit in building it in deliberately ffs.
trinque: the rocket designers aren't far from their work in the alienation sense.
trinque: "let my name not be attached to this act"
mircea_popescu: yeah ; but i was allowing his loose coupling maybe something comes of it.
mircea_popescu: undisciplined association -> how most science starts.
pete_dushenski: ben_vulpes: stealership wants 800 for part, 6.1hrs labour at $155/hr. also recall these are pitiful canuckbucks, not megaU$$$D here, so chop a full quarter when converting your bezzle outrage. but yes, civic tranny is cheap, toyolexus parts very spendy. anyways, my mechanic is doing it for closer to $1300. still a slap but not quite as dear.
trinque: replacing a lexus transmission?
pete_dushenski: goodness no. just a starter. ben is comparing crapples to crystal vases is all.
mircea_popescu: o wow, cad back down to 1.25 ?
trinque might get a used lexus
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: thus "natural resource value down 75% yoy"
trinque: trying to stop leaking money for no good reason on scam machines
mircea_popescu: prolly ben_vulpes 's civic is as good as that gets.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is not clear to me that a chumpatron operator has to experience any more 'alienation' than a pig farmer. the latter does not particularly care how pigs remember his work. nor the chumpatronist -- how the chumps remember.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if the pig farmer didn't experience alienation the pig farmer's daughter would be under my table begging to suck my cock or anything else so she doesn't have to go back to the pig farm.
pete_dushenski: trinque: you'd like their trucks. solid electronics (unlike ze germans), rock solid engines (unlike ze amerikans), but high resale value.
mircea_popescu: wouldn't be*
trinque: pete_dushenski: tundras are motherfuckers; they're in the running.
pete_dushenski: no one wants to go back to the farm. tis very true and the primary reason why my father's family busted their nuts to get top marks in county so as to get the fuck off the land and move to the city.
pete_dushenski: something like 4/7 kids had top marks in their respective years.
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski this is not universally true however. even in the narrow urban-rural-1970s universe discussed, there are some who are more alienated by the urban than the rural, prefer to live on the farm.
mircea_popescu: however it is telling that the leavers all seek the same thing - and it isn't the city per se. it's just "self-realization" ie, the opposite of the above alienation. essentially, they seek to not be chumpatron engineers.
mircea_popescu: (and yes farming is entirely chumpatronics, of the worst ilk. as dean martin once said, "my old man used to gamble that he'd get rain. i figure if a man's gonna gamble, might as well eschew plowing."
pete_dushenski: aha. city gamblers have cleaner hands
mircea_popescu: nobody has clean hands (go to a bio lab sometime, see). however - city gamblers feel their city gambling hands to be ~theirs~ to a larger degree than rural gamblers do.
asciilifeform: they're still gambling over the gambling proceeds of the farmer and of the miner.
mircea_popescu: this is the essential point, that shock of the alzheimer patient who sees self in the mirror and calls the police to report a burglary.
asciilifeform: (and of the soldier, etc)
pete_dushenski: they leavers still end up missing the quietude and tranquility of the countryside. there's no taking the rural out of the boy.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not really. in fact, they're just playing eulora.
pete_dushenski: *the leavers
mircea_popescu: could you say "whenever someone clicks on some grass to make a bundle and process it into coarse frangible thread - they are gambling with the proceeds of the actual irl farmer and miner, and soldier." ? sure. does it actually say anything however ? i dun see what.
asciilifeform: you can't eat eulora grass.
mircea_popescu: "you" isn't anything. for while you are - you are ; and once you're no longer, you're no longer.
mircea_popescu: this is the fundamental syllogism that informs all the outwardly-insane human behaviour.
asciilifeform: well no shit, imaginary creatures of particular type, can indeed eat it. but they run on top of physical hardware, which eats entirely other things.
asciilifeform: aha. or even the reaction to asciilifeform's 'what's a good flight sim' side thread
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there's no actual link between these two planes, you udnerstand ? consider that the idiots who thought hillary will win, DIDN'T yield once she didn't win. consider the above story of dreamers, and ALL experience without exception.
asciilifeform: 'omfg flightsims!? go and burn in a proper winged coffin like a man!'
mircea_popescu: there is no feedback between the hardware and the ideology ; and consequently matters of existence are irrelevant.
mircea_popescu: if luck/skill/process/whatever feeds them, they'll be fed and go on reddit and wikipedia to say what ~they think~ about it. right or wrong.
mircea_popescu: and if the same doesn't feed them, they'll die.
mircea_popescu: there ISNT an outcome where they go on reddit and wikipedia to say the opposite of what they think, see ?
mircea_popescu: the system is strictly bound in this manner ; and that decides the results.
asciilifeform: hey, s. lem got there first, in 'futurological congress' !1111
mircea_popescu: good for 'im!
mircea_popescu: and so therefore - no, they're not doing anything in town but playing eulora. it has ~nothing to do with farmer, miner or soldier.
mircea_popescu: they seek self-actualization, not reality-adequation after all.
mircea_popescu: (incidentally, anyone looking for a good source of the subversion of "stem" in the us may as well go read feyerabend)
trinque trying to wrap brain around whether this is a failure mode or universally true, but will have to implement tail recursion optimization in his own head first
trinque: "do I fuck for ideology?" "yeah, sure, whatever."
trinque: << unrelatedly, guy was nice enough to leave his ID right there. tidy.
mircea_popescu: trinque what "this" ?
trinque: "no feedback between the hardware and ideology"
mircea_popescu: ah. it is a failure mode ; the feedback is perceived by the i-subject as dolorous, and if there's too much of it the only way to rescue the ideology is to sever the feedback.
mircea_popescu: which severance is reinterpreted internally as "liberating" - the same kids who ENJOYED getting out of the house when they were 18 then cry when their parents die. but why ? weren't you so fucking happy to be rid of them ?
a111: Logged on 2015-08-23 05:06 trinque: I demand for this to never have happened at once!
mircea_popescu: "things change". yesofcoursehteydo.
mircea_popescu: trinque quite. and also you know, "campaign against fake news", "campaign against bullying", "campain against online trolls" and what have you.
mircea_popescu: recall the time when eu zone declared short selling illegal ?
trinque: "not me but christ through me" even worse, I'd think, with apologies to danielpbarron. "I submit myself fully to the god of purpose."
trinque: at least the socialist state claims to exist *here*
mircea_popescu: or how about, here's a fine example of utter retardation :
mircea_popescu: "Asset stripping has presented itself to be a highly controversial topic within the financial world. The positives of asset stripping generally lie with the corporate raiders, who can slash the debts they may have whilst improving their net worth.[6] However, the general perspective of asset stripping is firmly negative."
mircea_popescu: firmly in what sense ? if the company is worth less than its parts, then this is a case of underutilization of capital goods. someone somewhere is starving because you decided to keep the warehouse empty.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile, things such as "buy up all the grain and lock it in the basement", which are EXACT equivalents - antieconomic underutilization, are... also "firmly negative". well which the fuck is it!
asciilifeform: 'those with title to something worthless will find a way to extract value from it, making it even more worthless. An abandoned suburban subdivision might be worthless as housing, but valuable as a dump site for toxic waste.' (orlol's discussion of 'asset stripping', in )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the pedestrian notion of value and worth certainly have practical problems.
asciilifeform: the pedestrian notions of 'voltage' and 'current' also have problems.
mircea_popescu: anyway, while the quoted article is remarkable in toto as a fine sample of what wikipedia is, intellectually, the "break all the mirrors" fatlogic reaction is not limited to wikitards.
asciilifeform: but are perfectly adequate for all kinds of everyday work.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there is no such thing as "everyday work" anymore.
mircea_popescu: the robots are now doing that.
mircea_popescu: you'd expect basic numeracy to also be "perfectly adequate for all kinds of everyday work", except the kinds of everyday work in question are no longer done - the kids all see themselves you know, CEOs.
mircea_popescu: and basic numeracy is not perfectly adequate for being a ceo.
asciilifeform: this parallel universe where anglotards pretend to be various things -- it mostly does not exist for folx not tuned in.
mircea_popescu: yes, but " has 150mn users" and shopify trades as NYSE:SHOP for 40bux and then some guy wants to discuss things about you know, "MPEx has no volume you have been warned!!11"
mircea_popescu: evidently there's some expectation somewhere that the batshit insane terms of the empire will be taken at face value. by someone, somewhere. i have nfi.
mircea_popescu: but in any case - alienation and self-realization stand in an inexact opposition - if for no other reason then because derealisation often appears as a viable alternative self-realisation. "i am a pretty special snowball" is exactly the self-realised derealized individual, satisfied with his own self image in a wholly imagined world. while by definition maximally alienated ; he also is maximally self-realized.
mircea_popescu: which is why insanity is usually the escape valve for desires incomesurate with possibilities. as alf says, nothing novel here.
mircea_popescu: or to revisit the theme of : notional valuations always supply the shortfall. how exactly one goes about getting those notions varies, but they will be got.
mircea_popescu: (and if you're wondering - the hallucinatory perception of the other known objectively as "puppy love" is precisely an implementation of this principle. as it exists in all cultures [that i'm familiar with] it seems likely to be the definitionally human trait. man is the beast who, when confronted with a shortfall, dreams up a compensation.)
mircea_popescu: !~google quelli cattivi cattivi che urlano
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: Quelli cattivi cattivi che urlano - YouTube: <>; Quelli cattivi cattivi che urlano | TravelBook.TV: <>; Comincia il gioco, chi c'è c'è, chi non c'è non c'è. Si - Le 17 e 4 minuti: (1 more message)
trinque: would befit the creature that found a life of sorts on every continent but the totally frozen one
mircea_popescu: sigh. google you're useless, fo realz.
mircea_popescu: trinque yeah, the problem is not that it does that ; just that sometimes, it goes about it ineptly.
trinque: I'd say we like suffering, and it can get out of hand.
trinque: right
trinque: hm, we may have reimplemented evolution in this manner. breed incessantly, generate disjunctoins with reality at random in new meatsacks, older meatsacks that survived the last round kill the bad candidates, goto 10
trinque: they're doing exactly what they ought, then.
mircea_popescu: trinque the problem with feyerabend isn't even that he's an asshole, or whatever else. the problem is, his criticism of methodological science actually stands ; contrary to what people like to believe galilei's stance was a lot less defensible than the church's at the time ; yes he won, and yes he's from our party, so fuck the church - but this political approach to the problem is weak specifically because it tries to go up t
mircea_popescu: he tree, and you have no guarantee at all points you will have to resolve an epistemological dispute you will also have the political class available.
mircea_popescu: so, yes : science, and i don't here mean, globalwarmism or pseudoevolutionism or lulzgametheory or such ; but - physics. astronomy, things of serious. these didn't develop methodically, in history, but exactly through a process of "try random batshit and it sometimes works".
asciilifeform: fortunately (?) we still have a working model of the old school, preserved: 'atoms move because allah farts on them'
mircea_popescu: the fundamental reason weighing photons works and weighing witches does not work has nothing to do with anything inside the science ; they tried both, much like newton tried alchemy.
asciilifeform: hey, folx were 'weighing souls' as recently as t. edison
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform imagine someone who actually went to the trouble of rescuing - from an intellectually powerful, epistemologically informed position - all the insanities of history. "witches weighing doesn't work because witches don't have a float mass"
asciilifeform: (soon-to-be-corpse on a scale, etc)
mircea_popescu: the original ether was a fine step in thsi direction.
mircea_popescu: and people DID spend their life hunting ether winds. irl. yes. last century.
asciilifeform: you don't have to go far:
asciilifeform: the modern string theory folx
mircea_popescu: i'd rather go far because if i stay close it looks too much like genuine science.
asciilifeform: have dispensed with ~100% of what used to be called fundamental method - incl. testability
mircea_popescu: just the problem of optics in the time of galileo - none of that shit worked in any sensible manner. very much like in the case of string theory - they dispensed with reason. they did.
mircea_popescu: eventually "actual" science caught up with them and backed them up and here we are - but in other cases it didn't! the recon squad that sees enemy fortifying and raises a flag and calls for reinforcement may get them, and create a turning point in the whole war. or may not get them, and create half a dozen fresh graves.
asciilifeform: recall the gauss (specifically re euclid's 5th) thread ?
asciilifeform: the 'intellectual coherence ranks above results' thing had not fully died in his time
asciilifeform: and it is not clear that its death was a pure win.
asciilifeform: because 'result' is very slippery thing.
mircea_popescu: moreover - the real killer - this "catching up" needn't happen in any finite time. the atomists of athens never got the support coming their way ; it was a risible sect in the place and time.
asciilifeform: aha, and specifically the greeks had the dial cranked 100% to 'coherence'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes ; but coherence is also a very slippery thing. for one thing - the cowsies are very coherent. bitcoin is ??
asciilifeform: well naturally it is ~perceived~ coherence
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform pretty much reduces to "the greeks went wrong in being traditionalist, ie, expecting their negative space is universal negative space".
mircea_popescu: this is pretty easy a criticism to make universally, "from you knowing x it follows that x exists ; but from you not knowing y nothing follows about y".
asciilifeform: i don't even see this as specifically greek - it is standard 'blub effect', modern plankton thinks 'maths is what i learned in kindergarten', negative space -- universal
mircea_popescu: (but no, steve dutch's reading of aristotle is not interesting qua aristotle, or qua greek thought. it's strictly the case of dutch speaks english and found an english translation of aristotle, so he imagines that "τῶν γὰρ φύσει συνεστώτων τὰ μέν ἐστι σώματα καὶ μεγέθη, τὰ δ' ἔχει σῶμα καὶ μέγεθος, τὰ δ' ἀρχαὶ τῶν ἐχόντων εἰ
mircea_popescu: σίν." somehow comes to "There is nothing else beyond body (three dimensional solid) because if there were, then there would be something else beyond body." which... it doesn't.
asciilifeform: so let's have better translation ?
mircea_popescu: i can't.
asciilifeform: and what, gonna tell me that aristotle also did not derive, out of his arse, woman having fewer teeth than man ?
mircea_popescu: let's approach this from a more hospitable angle. dutch makes the charge (unsourced, but it's sheer anglicanism) that the reason the greeks didn't build ironclads is that they (like the chinese, natch) despised manual labour.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if the rabbit cannot be pulled out of the hat, perhaps there is no rabbit in the hat ?
mircea_popescu: this is not exactly correct. they despised what you despise, which is to say sitting there and deleting 30-40 spam accounts/day
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform to be precise : i can't turn the greek string into an english string for you for the same reason you can't turn trb into lisp code for me. "but alf, it compiles! a lisp version must exist!" hurr. i don't propose "because you can't take object code and make me lisp source it follows no c sources existed" do i ?
mircea_popescu: i hasn't the patience to go into detail as to echonton eisin & friends. not aristotle's fault.
jurov: heh, nice example how alphabet is inferior to diagrams. if aristotle had drawn a diagrams that would survive to this day, no translation needed
asciilifeform: and it is considerably harder to talk sheer circular crapolade via diagram.
asciilifeform: to revisit upstack -- yes, mircea_popescu's greek-fu is strong, and asciilifeform's -- weak. so, let's ask him, is it a misperception of untutored barbarians, that the greeks picked reasoning over observation , categorically ?
asciilifeform: because afaik this shows up again and again, and aristotle in particular explicitly pissed on the very concept of a thinking man working with his hands
asciilifeform: (in 'politics', possibly elsewhere)
mircea_popescu: jurov this is not actually true. but the falsity of the equivalency would be harder to pinpoint.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform as per usual, it depends on what is is. so - yes, pissed. you piss idem, when you say things to the tendency of "work - for tractors ; not humans". your dislike of perl and his dislike of "observation" in the sense of "handiwork" are very close ; and closer to my eye than alternatives.
asciilifeform: this is entirely possible.
mircea_popescu: and as to the problem of translation : source code and object code make together a thing. an item can not be said to be a program without either. their relationship is particular, you can go from one to the other, and ~to a very limited degree~ from the other to the one.
mircea_popescu: now - translation operates not on the object code (ie, the string quoted, or a string quoted) but on the whole program : any string plus ~the totality~ of conceptual content of the brain that produced it.
asciilifeform: it remains fact - that euclid was considerably more portable.
mircea_popescu: because no, words don't "have meanings". your meanings for ANY WORD are a function of ALL THE OTHER WORDS YOU KNOW. which is why my definitions regularily blow out english dictionaries, wikipedia and other sources of "wisdom" out of the water - i know more words, and in this knowledge i know all the words i know ~better~. infinitely and irreproducibly so.
mircea_popescu: so then : in order to go from a string in greek to a string in english, one has to reconstruct the conceptual underpinnings, the "source code". and this is not trivial.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform euclid was considerably more portable, ironically, because he was considerably more alphabetic. he eschewed ~most~ of the power of greek at his time, and ate the downside of sounding like a literal retard.
mircea_popescu: which he did sound like ; and which is why he doesn't figure as proeminently among the greeks of his time as he does among moderns.
asciilifeform: 'used diagrams, like complete tard'
mircea_popescu: what he used were not diagrams.
mircea_popescu: and no, it's not at all harder to talk nonsense via diagram. more generally : there's no methodological salvation ; you won't go to heaven through not swearing ; you won't produce science by following "the science method" and so following.
mircea_popescu: there's no "risk handling textbook" in finance.
asciilifeform: not salvation, no. but a kind of hygiene. diagram forces the speaker to use fewer #includes and 'powers of greek' etc.
mircea_popescu: what do you mean by "diagram" here ?
mircea_popescu: can we have without powers of greek and includes ?
asciilifeform: well, earlier in thread, we had ' dutch is wrong, aristotle meant this-here untranslateable thing, not 'body' in monkeyspeak'
mircea_popescu: i didn't say that. i said - that dutch's writing is interesting as of dutch ; not much as of aristotle.
asciilifeform: then i ask for coherent picture of subj in some current living language -- and no dice
asciilifeform: why'd that be ?
mircea_popescu: because aristotle belongs to a dead language.
asciilifeform: but euclid, evidently -- not
asciilifeform: 'portable'
mircea_popescu: aha. however fellow was ~marginal~ in his language.
mircea_popescu: as generally happens, mongols will comprehend the bums better than the middle class.
asciilifeform: folks who 'can't be translated into idiot mongol' are guilty until proven innocent of playing glass bead games with words and pulling one another's cocks
mircea_popescu: suppose you excavate tomb in valley of queens ; suppose you find ~live~, talking, cogent queen in there. suppose you take her to the shelf of items, and give her a questionnaire. she is to select "dildo spatula or hat" for each present item.
mircea_popescu: is she going to be disqualified from queenhood if she fails this multiple choice test ?
asciilifeform: how do you disqualify queen from a vanished throne ?
mircea_popescu: now we understand each other. dutch can't be "wrong" about aristotle per se. it is a fact he didn't much understand what the other said ; and it is a fact that in the dutch system, dutch's observations stand, however vaguely greek flavoured they may be.
mircea_popescu: the question before you is, were you trying to understand the greeks, or were you trying to explain to yourself why you aren't trying to ?
jurov: you can write elaborate essays in any languages, dead or alive that pi ==== three. but you can't clearly draw it.
asciilifeform: i in particular would like to understand the greeks. but every time i go full bore and try, i end up with 'the arbitrary crapola i gotta load into my head, to properly sink into this text, is quite equally loathesome to, e.g., 'dialectic materialism', or obummercare, or american patent law, etc.'
mircea_popescu: and aristotle could read this log, smile broadly at alf, and say "hey, suppose someone comes up with a superunitary probability ; and you disqualify it for you know, being out of the defined bounds. my my aren't you a circular logician just like me!"
mircea_popescu: it's likely what he'd have said, especially if older and thus mellowed.
asciilifeform: i'm quite certain that he would.
mircea_popescu has better greek fu than dutch, which allows him a better emulated aristotle than dutch's, which is neither here nor there.
mircea_popescu: throne - still vanished.
asciilifeform: actually even asciilifeform's emulated aristotle tends to say this.
asciilifeform: so you don't need super 'hi-fi' one.
asciilifeform: 'aristotle: your postulates are just as circular!' 'asciilifeform: i made a working diode from things i dug up' 'aristotle: you just got lucky'
mircea_popescu: (contrary to common belief, supernumeray probabilities are a major problem in theoretical physics ; much of the nature of the problems aristotle was struggling with in his discussion of heavens)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i;m not sure you grasp the point here. read it again!
asciilifeform: what even is a 'superunitary probability' ?
mircea_popescu: a probability > 1
asciilifeform: i can picture one as a nonphysical boojum, like the imaginary solution to a quadratic
asciilifeform: well yes no shit >1
asciilifeform: but where does one meet these.
mircea_popescu: same place aristotle met 4dimensional space ?
asciilifeform: except that heaviside had absolutely no problem introducing sqrt(-1) into models of reality
asciilifeform: soo if we gotta have P>1, we get P>1.
mircea_popescu: but you don't like string theory!
mircea_popescu: here's the thing : structure of knowledge and content of knowledge are different concerns. dutch erroneously represents a problem with the content in terms of problem with structure.
mircea_popescu: there you go - i haven't translated, but at least discussion allowed us to build a sufficient basis so at least a meaningful summary could be devised.
mircea_popescu: better than nothing.
asciilifeform: the strings folx willingly put themselves in the company of irigaray et al when they explicitly pissed on parsimony and physical testability.
mircea_popescu: yes, but the proposal to discuss a space one may never walk into may be seen with the same eyes
asciilifeform: they 'multiplied the entities'
mircea_popescu: especially 3000 years ago
asciilifeform: (or how do you say it in engl)
asciilifeform: if the imaginary entity (e.g., n-dimensional space) is the most parsimonious known model of an otherwise-inaccessible physical system -- it is not purely imaginary in the irigaray sense.
mircea_popescu: yes ; but its rejection does not actually constitute "circular logic". it's more like defensive skepticism than anything.
asciilifeform: it is not the greek rejections that make for circular logic, but what they did not reject.
mircea_popescu: well i was discussing a quote.
mircea_popescu: note also that all sorts of insanities are "the most parsimonious know model" for various otherwise-inaccesible psycho-systems.
mircea_popescu: (there is no such thing as an inaccessible physical system by the definition of the terms.)
trinque: just sounded like he was establishing an axiom, and would've said bring forth the man who has seen the 4th dimension if challenged.
asciilifeform: the idea of '1,111 stones' is just as inaccessible.
mircea_popescu: there's many problems ; it's not even the case that the greek notion of "dimension" at all maps to anything here extant. the discussion is carried on trilema on easier things such as "power" etc ; but in any case, it's rather like having lisp types arbitrarily sloshed around. you don't just add 5+5 like that, if they're different types.
mircea_popescu: should be pretty evident that a dimension defined in terms of divisibility is very fundamentally not the same thing as the latin notion of dimension-as-extensibility.
mircea_popescu: when you go to school in 3rd grade or w/e the teacher tells you a line is "blablabla EXTENDS TO INFINITY"
mircea_popescu: not "blablabla divided so and so"
mircea_popescu: and sure, the greek style of deductive logic, from the all downwards lost in the field to the latin method of inductive "from the parts is made the ballista". i have no objections, but also can't pretend the alternative never existed.
asciilifeform: the distinguishing cut is that one gives you the ballista (or diode, or nuke) and the other -- irigaray.
mircea_popescu: no, the other gives you eg statues worth keeping around.
mircea_popescu: the first gives youy ballista AND REDDIT ; and the other gives you praxitelles and alf-s-gentoo
asciilifeform: might not be so obvious what archaeologists will take a liking to.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 20:44 asciilifeform: during dinner with hitler et al, speer (among other things, reichsminister of architecture) made a comment about 'one problem, our concrete houses will leave very poor ruins'
mircea_popescu: indeed, which is why it's the "greco-roman antiquity"
mircea_popescu: (also it should prolly be pointed out that aristotle was not that much of a star of the greek world, if for no other reason then because he was born realtively late. he was a major star of ~scholastics~, and discussions of aristotle esp in translation are more a discussion of early christian europe than of "the greeks" - which incidentally are also a complex thing, alexander for instance, who caused hellenism, was nevertheles
mircea_popescu: s a macedonian not a greek and spoke greek like you speak french ; whereas MOST greek life happened in constantinople, a good third to a half of it ~under turkish rule~. so... whatevers, not quite so simple.)
asciilifeform: 'greek' is broad concept, yes
mircea_popescu: moreover the "physiologists" (term of art) went through anaximander's ionians AND pythagora's italics before socrates was even invented.
mircea_popescu: and after aristotle was invented, the greek world had what, -20 years of life left ?
asciilifeform: btw the modern greeks' attempt to unfuck (deturkify) their language, is rather lulzy to trained entomologist
asciilifeform: iirc norway did something similar (de-danish?)
asciilifeform: to same result (mega-snore)
asciilifeform: this notion, that you can 'unpiss a swimming pool,' recurs.
mircea_popescu: ahahaha! ok this is sweet : "Now he's waist deep. Yes, you can describe all motion as a compound of linear and circular motion. For that matter, vectors treat all motion as combinations of linear motion."
mircea_popescu: the problem being that no - circular motion is NOT linear ; much like a taylor sum is not an integral. yes they can be made arbitrarily close, sure, whatever.
mircea_popescu: traditionally, as well as here, the value of trying aristotle is that it allows one to expose his own cluelessnes, which is generally beneficial.
mircea_popescu: poor dutch.
asciilifeform: it remains -- the folks with the linear-circles have ballista, while the ones with the circular linearities -- got anally waltzed by turks
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i met two kinds of women in this life ; the kind that'd hang out with anyone just as long as they didn't go to jail/starve/whatever ; and the kind that'd hang out with me if it meant underground.
mircea_popescu: which kind would you prefer to have dinner with ?
asciilifeform: how's this plug in
mircea_popescu: well wtf argument is this, "they died". sure, constantinople fell to the turks, and rome fell to odoacer. hurr ?
asciilifeform: it wasn't simply 'they died', their approach to thought, as i pointed out in the start of this thread, is alive and well, 'allah farted and moves electron'
asciilifeform: but it is dead end in the sense where it does not produce diode.
mircea_popescu: you're discussing what amounts to a cartoon.
asciilifeform: dead philosophies do invite themselves to this reduction to cartoon, yes.
mircea_popescu: all philosophies are dead in this sense ; next you'll be asking "what is the sun's utility to us"
asciilifeform: uncle al had imho pretty good 'cartoon' for this 'all philosophies are equally dead' red herring -- 'who holds the rifle during deer season? and why'
asciilifeform: it ain't the deer.
mircea_popescu: so who holds the rifle then ?
asciilifeform: hunter.
asciilifeform: or, in the case of 'britain vs zulu', the folks with the maxim - won.
mircea_popescu: does this relate to the discussion in any way ?
asciilifeform: sure does.
asciilifeform: aristotelian postulates give you warm feeling of satisfaction; work-with-hands and observations-trump-theory give you ballista.
mircea_popescu: so then the greeks are the british and the work with hands the zulu ?
asciilifeform: vice-versa
mircea_popescu: how do we know this ?
asciilifeform: we - or at least asciilifeform - does not know this for certain. but the shape of the smoking crater -- suggests it.
mircea_popescu: to we or to asciilifeform ?
asciilifeform: evidently only to asciilifeform .
mircea_popescu: well he is entitled to his own aesthetic judgements.
mircea_popescu: (is the shape of the smoking crater polygonal or circular ftr ?)
asciilifeform: speaking of greek-fu, what does mircea_popescu have to say re the traditional story of hero of alexandria's steam kettle ?
asciilifeform: also disinfo ?
mircea_popescu: what do you mean ?
asciilifeform: y'know, the 'hey d00dz i have steam engine' 'lol, why would anyone want this, we have slaves'
mircea_popescu: ah, sure. object existed.
asciilifeform: object, iirc, turned up in late egyptian piles
mircea_popescu: you know, just like the german uranium.
mircea_popescu: or the japanese program.
asciilifeform: (iirc it found a use for automagically opening temple doors when sacrificial pit was lit up)
mircea_popescu: or the famous "x should be enough for everyone", be it bytes, cray computers, what have you.
mircea_popescu: provisioning judgements are notoriously error prone
mircea_popescu: i mean heck - they had atomic theory and didn't even build cyclotron
mircea_popescu: (and before you ask - yes, cyclotron CAN be built with materials found in classical athens, why not.)
asciilifeform: less astonishing than having wooden wheels, and running water, and not coming up with water mill.
mircea_popescu: or having had volcanoes and not coming up with glass ?
mircea_popescu: you know, prior to the internet MOST GIRLS didn't know they can masturbate ?
asciilifeform: lol suuure
mircea_popescu: it is true.
trinque: two steps beyond experience is twas brillig and the slythe toves
trinque: how could you say something out there
mircea_popescu has personally taught a bunch of young women. about say one third discover it naturally ; but the rest do not.
mircea_popescu: and i wouldn't even think it fair to say that the other two thirds are dumber or something.
asciilifeform: not dumber. but sexless. (at least until reformatted)
mircea_popescu: not particularly true either.
mircea_popescu: and to add amusement to this : of those who do discover it naturally, only a fraction figure out THE PROCESS. most arestuck repeating the exact procedure that they originally discovered.
trinque: "what makes woman orgasm" is culture bound. gotta be able to reprogram it when they end up in another context.
mircea_popescu: so she'll still frottage the shit out of teddybears as a 19yo because hey.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: afaik this is not specific to woman
asciilifeform: or to masturbatieon
mircea_popescu: of course not ; which is why i'm putting it here.
mircea_popescu: you'd think "it;s on your fucking body - right there! and it works!" would be sufficient basis. turns out not. volcanoes produce obsidian but do not appreciably help the locals make glass.
mircea_popescu: adn so on and so forth. i doubt much conclusion can be drawn from this absence.
trinque: ends up a question of how conceptual symbols are formed
asciilifeform: arguably volcano is poor example, for glass. just as bird is astonishingly dead end for flight.
asciilifeform: recall the thread re 'engineer -- cuts!'
asciilifeform: these folx -- did not know how to cut.
trinque: I will not stumble drunkenly into it, but it'd seem one would at least require input that can be contorted into the item.
trinque: saw lightning-struck sand, hm, maybe glass
trinque: otherwise from where will it come?
mircea_popescu: i dunno alfie. lava - hot. behind it - glass. doesn't seem more of a leap than what is proposed for the original "cooking meat" discovery, which supposedly is why we're even here.
asciilifeform: gotta discover the blown forge
mircea_popescu: well, if they were iron age, they had blown forge.
asciilifeform: and as everybody recalls, aztec was quite happy to use ~found~ glass
mircea_popescu: ~everyone from golden crescent to mongolia and sweden had it.
asciilifeform: just as prehistoric folx used found fire
mircea_popescu: but the general point here was that undevelopment or underdevelopment is not much argument.
asciilifeform: (or modern redditus uses 'found' comp...)
mircea_popescu: but forget glass. ~everyone had potatoes even if they didn't have lemons, and tin and copper. who made galvanic gold plating process ?
mircea_popescu: babylon had it , londinum did not. why not ?
mircea_popescu: no tomatoes in albion ?
asciilifeform: eh 'bagdad battery' is roughly at 'nazi bell' level of convincing.
mircea_popescu: fine ; so why didn't the others make it ?
asciilifeform: why not, say, gunpowder ?
mircea_popescu: you can make it in an hour! what were all these people thinking! clearly all languages but objective-c were wrong! false gods of a false reason!
asciilifeform: could have just as readily been hit upon in 5000bc
mircea_popescu: pick your item.
asciilifeform: answer is that the brute force searchers got to it on day x and not x-1, x-2.
mircea_popescu: come to think about it - ONLY RECENTLY you found out thyobatteries exist!
mircea_popescu: THEY WERE EVIDENT OMFG
mircea_popescu: (srsly, i sat there and went holy shit this is so obvious wtf is wrong with us.)
asciilifeform: actually i knew that it exists, but had nfi that could go to a store and BUY
asciilifeform: they used to be usg-only
mircea_popescu: maybe that's why no steam engine in pelopones transit ?
asciilifeform: chinese situation with rocket might be closer example.
asciilifeform: (and more recent, quite possibly mats et al could read and say what the relevant folks thought of subj)
mircea_popescu: "they didn't know lightning is available in store - thought zeus only item. so they didn't make tesla coil. problem ?"
trinque: allocation of thought-power can't be done intelligently on a matter not already known.
asciilifeform: conceptual distance between everyday greek tech (e.g., clepsydra) and water mill, is much shorter than to tesla coil.
mircea_popescu: but not shorter than from volcano to glass ; or from acid to battery.
asciilifeform: (nobody, for starters, is about to draw a kilometre of pure copper wire by fortuitous accident)
mircea_popescu: it is altogether dubious, also, HOW will you metric these distances.
trinque: and it's being done in hindsight.
mircea_popescu: it'd better be something that compares favourably with aristotle's dimensional calculations, too! because you're so much more advanced than the zulureeks!
asciilifeform: re: volcano: recall the oklo 'reactor' ?
mircea_popescu: ie natural fission in deposit ?
asciilifeform: and yes, 'greeks could have made tesla coil.' the same way that gavin can guess the bits in mircea_popescu's privkey
asciilifeform: which is to say -- purely theoretically, in much the same way that my arse has a nonzero chance of falling through the chair, through the floor, and down into china
mircea_popescu: the question of how you metric these things re emerges.
trinque: asciilifeform: how do you narrow that from "anyone could encounter anything"
mircea_popescu: and this is a problem of much more practical import than commonly realised. if slave is punished for things she "should have figured", how to you connect the lash count / severity of the punishment to the offense ?
mircea_popescu: just HOW should should she have ?
asciilifeform: believe or not -- i have this problem with various people routinely.
mircea_popescu: (yes, /me does this routinely, and the complaint routinely is presented that the severity is arbitrary etc.)
asciilifeform: even the current thread in #mod6 , is possibly an example
trinque: mircea_popescu: and wouldn't misapplication of this only further miswire her, and produce worse results ?
mircea_popescu: i have nfi.
mircea_popescu: so far i'm opting out of the entire "systematic slavery" thing ; it is a private not public matter entirely opaque to they-who-aren-t-me, which makes me-as-slaveholder rather divine in nature.
asciilifeform: afaik there is no ready pill against this . folks won't climb ladders unless prodded, and you cannot predicate the prodding on whether they seem to see the ladders or not.
mircea_popescu: the above problem not having a known solution, even if heuristic in nature, being a large part of why.
trinque: yeah, I don't suppose there's a solution in posing the question.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: lel, gentoo
mircea_popescu: what can i tell you.
asciilifeform: 'MINE -- WORX!111'
trinque: but it points directly to the lack of a transition path for discussed greeks aside "encounter the thing, such that pavlovian conditioning can build useful associations"
mircea_popescu: certainly the attempt worked wonders for pete_dushenski writing readable articles. what exactly made his previous work less good than his current work ?
mircea_popescu: it's easier to not suck than to explain how to not suck, even in particular cases.
asciilifeform: trinque: dutch had imho a correct observation, the greeks had no particular desire to be us, and would barf in about three seconds if they could meet modern folx
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, it's just not apparent dutch is aware this includes dutch.
asciilifeform: pretty sure that he was.
mircea_popescu: from his discussion of artistotle it's not evident. maybe he was.
mircea_popescu is no dutcheologist.
BingoBoingo: <trinque> pete_dushenski: tundras are motherfuckers; they're in the running. << Recently Honda Civic SUV edition "CRV" fell onto my rolling candidates list. Slotted just below rust-free 1986 S10
mircea_popescu: << this neatly dovetails into "brain is not a thinking machine". "if you exist in the space long enough, eventually brain will work to think about the space - but if you do not, sorry buster, "probability can not be larger than 3 because 3 is the largest it could be".
a111: Logged on 2016-12-21 20:10 trinque: but it points directly to the lack of a transition path for discussed greeks aside "encounter the thing, such that pavlovian conditioning can build useful associations"
BingoBoingo: <trinque> "not me but christ through me" even worse, I'd think, with apologies to danielpbarron. "I submit myself fully to the god of purpose." << Step 3!
trinque: purpose as opposed to cause
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform come to think about it, everyone, including modern folks regularly barf upon that encounter.
mircea_popescu: so this may not be saying much.
mircea_popescu: i dunno where this truism that "people like people" comes from, but it is spectacularily resilient in the face of unequivocal quashing irl. NOBODY, past the age of about 5 or so, likes almost anybody else to even the degree of toleration, let alone actually seeking them out. not even fucking women, hence the prostitute's job (not to fuck - but to leave after!)
trinque: the christians hacked a primordial fear here. salvation is but a word, AND YOU'RE GOING TO MISS IT.
trinque: think if you dwelt forever on the fact that by extension, godhood itself is all around you, but you've not the ability to understand it.
trinque: you'd have option paralysis and sit under a lotus tree til you died.
trinque: << now this and the notion of contorting onself to think come into greater focus. thinking ~til the answer~ without knowledge of the possiblity of an answer opens up a wide space for biological suicide.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-16 18:21 mircea_popescu: in any case - mental models of logic, as with mental models of anything found in nature -, are approximations. the same mechanism that allows a guy to isolate 0* from null.predicate allows one all sorts of psycho-imunological responses that are rather requisite to maintain the subjective notion of the self ~in a format comprehensible to itself~!
trinque: *somes
trinque: ah fuck
mircea_popescu: altogether not a bad summary of "eastern mysticism"
mod6: <+asciilifeform> even the current thread in #mod6 , is possibly an example << asciilifeform found an oversight in my latest version of V. it doesn't have a flag allow or disallow the pressing of WILD vpatches.
mod6: Currently, if a WILD vpatch is in the flow, it will just press it as long as it is based correctly.
mircea_popescu: what's a wild patch again ?
trinque: unsigned. better to know if you're sticking your dick in crazy tonight.
mod6: a vpatch without any signature placed into .seals.
mircea_popescu: those shouldn't press at all should they ?
mod6: I press them very often, infact.
mod6: for testing.
mircea_popescu: ah like a testing thing.
mircea_popescu: still though, pressing unsigned matter is anti-v
mod6: But it never occured to me that the average guy might just drop on of these into patches and never consider what he is doing.
mircea_popescu: better off making a test key and adding it to seals than this
trinque: thing sounds like it needs to be cleaved into vpatch and v which calls vpatch
mod6: So yeah, need to add a flag for this.
mircea_popescu: well no, actually.
mircea_popescu: there shouldn't be any flag - nor should it press unsigned things.
trinque: this is how cat gets a bunch of switches.
mod6: I don't think it is reasonable to sign every thing I want to test.
mircea_popescu: with the test key ? why not ? fucks with your workflow ?
mod6: I think a flag takes care of this, exactly how alf's original v worked.
trinque humbly suggests considering the combination of orthogonal, simple tools
mod6: <+trinque> thing sounds like it needs to be cleaved into vpatch and v which calls vpatch << i'm not sure i follow here...
trinque: the reason you do not use patch by hand is that it does not respect the hash
trinque: that is a problem with patch
asciilifeform: stock 'patch' disrespects RUN ONLY IF THIS-BITWISE HASH
trinque: note that it does do a sort of squashy "this is what was around the spliced matter" which is a shitty hash
mod6: im still not groking what is being said here.
mod6: i don't have time right now. i'll come back later for this.
trinque: you are expanding the definition of "v" the word to accomodate deficiencies in the definition of another word, patch
trinque: asciilifeform: how did you ^ the first statement of it and waiwat the second
a111: Logged on 2016-12-21 20:50 trinque: the reason you do not use patch by hand is that it does not respect the hash
trinque: v used to mean "tool which applies tree of >1 lord-sworn changes to definition of item" and would become "... or nobody swore, whatever"
trinque: why have that code path present at all? fix patch, apply test patches by hand
trinque: the only reason we don't manually apply all each time is we are relying upon the "sworn"
asciilifeform: apply by hand how ?
asciilifeform: patch -p0 < foo.patch ?
trinque: yes
asciilifeform: this is unacceptable for ~any~ purpose because it doesn't check precedent hashes !
trinque: I said fix patch.
trinque: and don't add hair to V
mircea_popescu: dude that's a roundabout way of saying it.
asciilifeform: when trinque posts his fixed patch util, it will be safe to remove this 'hair' from vtron.
asciilifeform: until then, i use the wild knob every day.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and when i provide you with a toilet, you'll stop pissing in the bath tub ?
asciilifeform: and yes it is a 'flood reactor button'
asciilifeform: yes. because gotta piss in ~something~.
trinque: entirely inconsistent with recent "cat" thread.
mod6: how does WILD have anything to to do with patch?
mod6: my v checks the hashes for files pressed, and pukes if not a match from the hashes in the processed vpatch.
asciilifeform: mod6: as i understand, trinque and mircea_popescu were taking the position that 'it is dangerous and useless to have an off switch for signature check'
mod6: you can't turn off the sig check, at least in mine.
asciilifeform: mod6: didn't you just recently discover that yours didn't even do the check?
mod6: mine ~does~ the check.
asciilifeform: (would apply patch regardless of signed or not, if present in .patches)
trinque: if zero sigs, passes.
mod6: it doesn't care at signature time if one is WILD or not, only if the vpatch does not ~verify~ and there is a corresponding seal.
mod6: so like when your key expired, shit puked.
trinque: which alright already regarding null sets, but look how it maims the operator.
asciilifeform finds this thread somewhat confusing, is probably doomed to actually read mod6's vtron and comment only after.
trinque: he's using "wild" to mean "bare of signatures"
asciilifeform: anyway, the behaviour of having 'wild' button with red flip cover , that permits (and at all times, clearly marks, 'WILD') unsigned patches, or mircea_popescu's variant, where you gotta have 'test key' in .wot, are equivalent afaik
asciilifeform: so instead of '[TESTKEY]' it prints '[WILD]' -- big fat difference?
trinque: they're not; one doesn't introduce a branch
asciilifeform: trinque: branch ?
asciilifeform: (and yes, you can have 'test1', 'test2', ... while there is only one 'wild'. but who the hell uses 'wild' for anything other than one-at-a-time test, of own code?!)
trinque: I have no idea how we get from "gnu cat is shit because they added compromises throughout the thing's life" to "we will allow ourselves this same sin" because what, we're holier, can afford it ?
trinque: or we're afraid of patch? if we want an actual patch utility that only deals in single byte characters and hashes, I will write it.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform they aren't. the correct solution here is to have "automated low value signature process", NOT "to bypass signature checks".
mircea_popescu: if you want to not be bothered with signing things - make a shit key and use that eg in an emacs module or as an output script or w/e
mircea_popescu: DON'T revert v to git.
phf: hmm, can make the process entirely painless with shitsign alias, that does --batch --quiet and uses a passwordless key
mircea_popescu: and ~should~.
mircea_popescu: the nearly psychotic OUTRIGHT REFUSAL TO USE CRYPTOGRAPHY, in its universal insistence is starting to grate on my neverse.
asciilifeform: how is a 'shitsign key' a 'use of cryptography' ?
mircea_popescu: in the same way fuckjing an ugly broad is a use of your cock.
mircea_popescu: stop saving yourself for marriage.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is not a pure win. for instance, some folx don't even ~keep~ a nonairgap signtron around. and now -- they would have to.
mircea_popescu: this is no cost.
trinque: asciilifeform does exploitation for a living, right? or reversing exploits?
trinque: how many encountered involve getting a thing to go down another branch
mircea_popescu: other than "all" ?
trinque: aha.
mircea_popescu: in all honestly if i were archeologist and discovering this i'd flip the bozo bit on this "tmsr" bs for this here reason.
asciilifeform: i can see mircea_popescu's 'this is a car with 4 brake pedals, wtf is wrong with you' argument.
mircea_popescu: to put it mildly.
asciilifeform: btw here's a related legend
asciilifeform: when v. belenko flew his mig to jp, and gave it as a gift to usa, su army ended up installing 'belenko switches' in all combat aircraft, supposedly.
asciilifeform: they enabled 'shoot friend' mode (normally, 'friend or foe' beacon, would prevent.)
asciilifeform: what archaeologists will say to this, i have nfi.
mircea_popescu: "multiethnic superempire" prolly.
mod6: hmm.
mod6: I'm pretty sure i am a bozo.
mircea_popescu: lol dun take it too badly mod6
mod6: I think alf should take his V much further, and mine can fall into dust bin.
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trinque: mod6: dun let vigorous discussion of the item dissuade you of working on it.
mod6: you know, i'd like to. but my thing has been around for waaay to long for no one to have noticed a huge flaw.
BingoBoingo: No such thing!
trinque: yeah but, glass!
mod6: which basically means to me, either no one understands "vtronics" or no one who did ever audited the thing. and i'm clearly not qualified and shouldn't have written the fucking thing int he first place.
BingoBoingo: Many long lived things carry major flaw, see that one tower in Pisa
trinque: it's why V needs to be in a V tree itself.
mod6: no seriously, i should have never been adacious enough to think that I could make that thing work.
phf: mod6: i think there's more infrastructure around V than there's V use, which leaves a lot of issues unexplored. for example there were mentions that V had a binary problem, but a serious discussion only happened recently, with no satisfactory solution. i think you were attempting to solve an important problem: how to let people outside of tmsr figure out build process without 6 months of log (seems like even more now), but i suspect
phf: that it might've been a bit premature to attempt to provide an authoritative comprehensive solution
jurov: wait a sec. mod6's build system won't work if v is to reject patches without sigs?
mod6: so... say that im the only guy in your wot.
mod6: and you only have seals from me for vpatches in your patches directory.
mod6: if you get rid of one of the seals for one of the vpatches, it'll say "WILD"
mod6: but it'll still press happily enough.
jurov: that one vpatch still has your sig or not?
mod6: anyway, i cna't talk atm
mod6: but i encourage you all to experiment with this.
mod6: should have been done long ago.
mod6: i have a subroutine
mod6: it's called 'validate_seals'
mod6: it iterates over all the vpatches and the like-named seals in the .seals dir.
mod6: it looks for valid/in-valid signatures to vpatches.
mod6: if i have a bunch of seals in my .seals dir from a guy named 'alf' that isn't in my wot, then V will complain.
mod6: or if I have bad signatures, then it'll complain as well.
jurov: ..but it goes on and presses it?
mod6: no
mod6: in either of those two cases, it pukes and stops.
mod6: but if you hvae ~no~ seals, then you can press it sure. the 'flow' will represent these as WILD.
jurov: ah. and why the hard feelings wrt changing that case into error, too?
mod6: no hard feelings. i said i could do this pretty easily.
mod6: i feel like this thing is a moving target.
trinque: again the null set predicates thing causes huge commotion. I am honestly (and without veiled jabs) fascinated.
deedbot: << Qntra - US Drug Overdose Mortality Continue To Increase In Latest Figures
ben_vulpes: << actually /i/ found it, and only when for personal lols i told it to do a thing that it shouldn't have
a111: Logged on 2016-12-21 20:44 mod6: <+asciilifeform> even the current thread in #mod6 , is possibly an example << asciilifeform found an oversight in my latest version of V. it doesn't have a flag allow or disallow the pressing of WILD vpatches.
ben_vulpes: software review takes *months* if not *years* around here. part and parcel of the deficit spending and how the humans choose to allocate their time.
shinohai: !!key Nom
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> << actually /i/ found it, and only when for personal lols i told it to do a thing that it shouldn't have << ah, right.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-21 20:44 mod6: <+asciilifeform> even the current thread in #mod6 , is possibly an example << asciilifeform found an oversight in my latest version of V. it doesn't have a flag allow or disallow the pressing of WILD vpatches.
mod6: iw asn't sure that the problems you're having are related to this
mod6: but never the less.
mod6: anytway, im off.
ben_vulpes: no, this is separate and not exactly a problem anyways.
ben_vulpes: the other thing is separate and not precisely a problem, i mean to say.
asciilifeform: ftr it was definitely ben_vulpes who found $bug
asciilifeform: i had 0 part in it
asciilifeform: << if everyone waited for asciilifeform in particular to do ~everything~, it will be a very sad world
a111: Logged on 2016-12-21 21:30 mod6: I think alf should take his V much further, and mine can fall into dust bin.
ben_vulpes: ftr i do not want to bin
pete_dushenski: << what colour are your ram bits ?
shinohai: mauve
shinohai: it's faster
pete_dushenski: it's going to be a very mauve 2017 isn't it
mircea_popescu: !!key nom
deedbot: << Qntra - Swedish Policy Update: "White Power" Causes Islamic Extremism
mircea_popescu: << you gotta appreciate scrutiny is very inelastic. many people used their own implementations ; discussion of others' versions only meaningfully starts after some localized familiarity etc. in any case "being qualified to even use v" is an iffy thing - seeing how it's a novel design, and the novelty is fundamental and conceptual, nobody is technically qualified to use one. you wouldn
a111: Logged on 2016-12-21 21:35 mod6: which basically means to me, either no one understands "vtronics" or no one who did ever audited the thing. and i'm clearly not qualified and shouldn't have written the fucking thing int he first place.
mircea_popescu: 't think you're an expert email or vim or bash user after less than a year and that's about how long v's been around.
mod6: fair enough Sir.
mod6: So I have a bit of code that I've inserted that will do what you ask.
mod6: Essentially, during the verify_signatures subroutine, if a vpatch is found to NOT have a corresponding signature, death().
mod6: err 'validate_seals'. that's the one.
mircea_popescu: does death() mean it skils over that vpatch ?
mod6: and it's one of the first executing routines in my v.
mod6: death() means that we die. we stop then and there. continue no further.
mod6: consider the following paste I'll put together... stand by.
mircea_popescu: alrighty.
mod6: i need to dig into this a bit more, but the output flow is not necessarily the same order that the signature verification happens in.
mod6: that's because toposort hasn't happened yet.
mod6: bbs.
deedbot: << Qntra - Ontario Standardized Test Resorts To Graphite Based Security Measures
mircea_popescu: mod6 in any case if you'd have never written the thing you'd have never found this thing. so you know, it's always worth losing fingers.
pete_dushenski: heh. graphite-based.
asciilifeform: 'If there's a middlebox in the Swedish ISP side (theory 1), we should see that HTTP 302 responses come back much faster than HTTP 200 responses, because a hypothetical middlebox will sit between the Swedes and upstream, and therefore may respond much faster than upstream. If there is no middlebox (theory 2) we'd see comparable response times for HTTP 200 and HTTP 302. Of course, no middlebox implies quite strongly that it's the Dai
asciilifeform: ly Mail itself doing the censoring.' << this is not a necessary hypothesis, swedish mitm could easily smooth out the response times (by slowing, or, alternatively, caching, the victim site)
asciilifeform: << fwiw i stuck to using my old rusty one, until quite recently
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 00:01 mircea_popescu: << you gotta appreciate scrutiny is very inelastic. many people used their own implementations ; discussion of others' versions only meaningfully starts after some localized familiarity etc. in any case "being qualified to even use v" is an iffy thing - seeing how it's a novel design, and the novelty is fundamental and conceptual, nobody is technically qualified to use one. you wouldn
asciilifeform: and for no especially good reason.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform his reasoning is fucking broken ; same time means nothing, if he found difference it might've meant something
asciilifeform: but also the enemy could make the time difference come out to either direction, as he chooses.
mircea_popescu: at least in principle.
asciilifeform recalls the peculiar mitm from dulap-1
BingoBoingo so far happy with end of the year lulz acceleration following slow early december
asciilifeform: << the simplest way to implement this is to iterate over the ~seals~, finding corresponding patches
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 00:03 mod6: Essentially, during the verify_signatures subroutine, if a vpatch is found to NOT have a corresponding signature, death().
mircea_popescu: not particularily correct ; should iterate over patches, check sealness ; act accordingly.
mircea_popescu: im not sure it has to die when it encounters malformed patch (be it not signed or whatever), but anyway.
asciilifeform: iterating over seals lets you produce the 'take seals only of so-and-such'
mircea_popescu: so does iterating over patches.
asciilifeform: you're stuck doing so anyway.
asciilifeform: iterating over patches is O(N^2) (unless the files are correctly named, patch.nickname.sig, which we do, but imho is a bit of a cheat)
asciilifeform: we did this thread.
mircea_popescu: i'm sorry ?
asciilifeform: !#s O(N^2)
a111: Logged on 2016-01-18 15:35 ascii_butugychag: jurov: theoretically you can avoid using the name prior to .sig, but then you have to check ALL seals agains ALL patches ALWAYS and this is O(N^2)
mircea_popescu: yes, i know the thread, i was in it. feel free to address at any point eh.
a111: Logged on 2015-08-15 17:46 mircea_popescu: why ?
mircea_popescu: and patches are checked against seals ; not seals against patches.
asciilifeform: because eventually mircea_popescu et al will gripe about 'this is dog slow'
mircea_popescu: no they won't ; partly because we won't be doing anything idiotic like "giving random names to seals".
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the current setup (with the patch.nickname.sig) is an artifact of the idiocy of pgp, where one cannot take the signature and extract a hash from it with which you can look up the patch from a manifest of patch hashes in O(NlogN)
mircea_popescu: for every patch, check if patch sig by approved names is present. this isn't any sort of N^2 ; it's O(N*M) where N is the count of patches and M the count of approved signers.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu has it, it is O(NM)
mircea_popescu: the disadvantage of being clever is that one will be surprised.
asciilifeform: at least when using gpg.
mircea_popescu: well when we finally have better-pg, we may do different things, but really...
mod6: <+asciilifeform> << the simplest way to implement this is to iterate over the ~seals~, finding corresponding patches << <+mircea_popescu> not particularily correct ; should iterate over patches, check sealness ; act accordingly. << 'validate_seals' does this; iterates over patches, finds seals for patch, verifies or fails if bad ;; now dies if there are none.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 00:03 mod6: Essentially, during the verify_signatures subroutine, if a vpatch is found to NOT have a corresponding signature, death().
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> im not sure it has to die when it encounters malformed patch (be it not signed or whatever), but anyway. << i was thinking this was simple because of this:
asciilifeform: mod6: you ought to be able to press variant-wots (say, mod6-only) without having to also remove patches mod6 did not sign from patches dir
asciilifeform: they should simply be ignored.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> there shouldn't be any flag - nor should it press unsigned things. && <+mircea_popescu> with the test key ? why not ? fucks with your workflow ?
mod6: i think it's fine. you make a testkey, you sign your test vpatches, you press & test, etc. then we're using encryption everywhere. and we fail fast.
mod6: we don't not allow the oppertunity to continue without a signature on a vpatch.
mircea_popescu: mod6 if it simply skips over the patches it can't find acceptable sigs for, it delivers asciilifeform 's thing above where you don't have to keep fucking around with the patch set.
asciilifeform: it's what my original vtron did (when in normal operating mode)
mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6: you ought to be able to press variant-wots (say, mod6-only) without having to also remove patches mod6 did not sign from patches dir << now this.
mircea_popescu: it should probably stop if it finds valid patch that can't be applied (mismatched hashes) - because by then your state is broken.
mod6: this perhaps works as is, in a way.
mod6: if you want 'mod6' only, you remove all other guys from your wot
mod6: well, lemme check
mod6: i can't recall.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: incidentally a vtron that has my 'origin' op, can check any tree for consistency simply by iterating over the files and running origin(hash_of_file)
asciilifeform: at no point should the answer be a null set
mircea_popescu: sounds about right yeah
BingoBoingo: ty pete_dushenski
deedbot: << Qntra - Skype For Mac Includes Well Lubricated Back Orifice
mod6: ok so yah. if you only have 'mod6' in your wot, and you leave ~all~ of the sigs (from alf, mp, trinque, bc) in your .seals dir, then we throw an error and die.
mod6: but if you get rid of everyone else's sigs from .seals, then it's fine and you can happily do 'mod6' tree.
asciilifeform: again, i dun see why i should have to remove seals when i variant-wot
asciilifeform: or to remove patches.
mod6: haha. well.
mircea_popescu: well he can run his v any way he pleases ; but yes it should prolly just drop the bad patch and move on
mod6: i suspect that it isn't written that way.
asciilifeform: i must have been the only one who actually used the variants thing, to date
asciilifeform: this has been an interesting exercise, i had nfi that i was the only known user of most of the knobs...
mircea_popescu: eh wouldja simmer down.
asciilifeform: eh i'm not heated up
asciilifeform: but now i gotta try other vtrons! ben_vulpes's , for instance
asciilifeform: i wonder what was omitted there.
mod6: i gather, to implement what is sort of discussed here, will take quite an overhaul
asciilifeform: i'll point out that for so long as we have an agreed upon patch format, and can agree on a sigtron to use, with agreed pubkeys, 'each d00d has own vtron' worx fine
mod6: and not that it shoudn't anyway, there are some things about my implementation that i do not appreciate looking back on it.
asciilifeform: (given that no catastrophic braindamage, e.g. cyclic graph, is permitted)
mod6: i want it to work the way that it is supposed to work.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes ; methodological objections are really of those three pillars. like "use ascii" or "the signatures are given TO BE USED" etc.
mod6: which, is my fault for having a somewhat, apparently, limited grasp
asciilifeform: mod6: relax a bit. recall, my original vtron didn't even check hashes post-patch
mircea_popescu: mod6 no, the discussion is actually very productive in that it actually helps specify exactly what v is.
mircea_popescu: such as in "what classes of objections can or can't be brought to a v implementation"
mircea_popescu: that it eschews key checks is one thing ; that it dies on which condition is apparently a different thing.
mod6: this is fair, and i agree. i do want it to work the way it it should work. not the way it does work if those are disjointed. no way to get there, except through these kinds of investigations.
mircea_popescu: the key being, that if you allow pressing without signatures, then git qualifies as a v implementation.
mircea_popescu: whereas if you allow dieing in arbitrary condition, then whatever, you get a more restrictive v than other people.
trinque: as an aside, an environment where "man makes own necessities" out of still simpler tools he can combine as he likes, strikes me as ideal.
trinque wrote an mda yesterday because maildrop and procmail are dogshit.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i dun recall mine doing any verification
ben_vulpes: beyond patches, that is.
ben_vulpes: *signatures* i actually mean to say
mod6: so what you're saying... is that i should be able to say "v press output_press_dir SOME_HEAD mircea_popescu"
mod6: and in the context of trb, I would end up with, currently, just genesis.vpatch pressed out in 'output_press_dir'
mod6: aside from the fact that I might have 69 people in my .wot, and 4000 sigs in my .seals dir.
ben_vulpes: if by "mircea_popescu" you mean "only mircea_popescu's key in .wot"
ben_vulpes: nono, .wot governs.
asciilifeform: << it most assuredly does not. git has hidden state.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 00:52 mircea_popescu: the key being, that if you allow pressing without signatures, then git qualifies as a v implementation.
mircea_popescu: mod6 the idea is that you should be able to alter the end product by altering .wot rather than by altering .wot AND .patch or .seal
mod6: so today, with my impl, you'd have to at minimum, get rid of 3999 sigs from .seals. you could also, if you wanted to, get rid of 68 pub keys in your .wot. iirc, that part isn't required tho.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: to be fair, .wot, .seals and patches apparently constitutes 'hidden state' today.
mircea_popescu: mod6 in practice you'd just keep .seals_mp .seals_all .seals_alfmod6 etc and move them around
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: in what sense are they hidden??? they are plain text files that YOU PUT THERE
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes i don't even want to open that discussion, it's fucking obvious they're equivalent but whatevers.
asciilifeform: directly
asciilifeform: explicitly
mod6: mircea_popescu: aha. ok.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: and .git idem but let's not.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: fuck no
asciilifeform: i have nfi what the crapola in .git does.
asciilifeform: and i certainly did not put it there directly by hand.
mod6: for completeness here is what happens today with my 'v', if you pull people out of .wot, but leave all the sigs in .seals:
ben_vulpes: imho v should not barf when patch and seal exist but key does not in wot
mod6: not that it's correct, just for example of "where are we at?"
mircea_popescu: barf = death() ?
ben_vulpes: wot is a /filter/ on signature dir.
asciilifeform: mod6: this is correct from one pov ('check patches first') but forbids variant wots.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: yes
mod6: fwiw, and this may not be the correct way, but i think i just tried to clone alf's.
asciilifeform: mine did not behave this way.
mod6: ok. see maybe there was something there that I didn't pick up on. :/
ben_vulpes: so long as there is at least one signature for which v can import a corresponding key, that patch should press.
mircea_popescu: i agree with the notion .wot is supposed to be a filter over .seals
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes> so long as there is at least one signature for a patch, for which signature v can import a corresponding key, on the basis of the wot, that patch should press. << ftfy.
asciilifeform: noshit, where else could it get the key
mod6: we are seriously way beyond 'noshit' territory.
mod6: if it were obvious, we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place.
mod6: im like, mentally retarded. i need things spelled out in explicit, literal forms. :]
mircea_popescu: that's ok, i'm just waiting for phf to say something so i unrate him
mod6: so let's back up a minute, cause i'm still trying to figure out what I need to do here...
mod6: so mine, with only 'mod6' in .wot, calls death() when encountering a sig from a person not included in the wot.
mod6: i could almost swear that we had a whole discussion on this before where we wanted it this way??
mod6: however...
mod6: what I should do, is ignore that sig, and continue iterating, collecting up all of the mod6 .sigs and then creating a v-tree from just those alone.
asciilifeform: this way you can do variant-wot presses.
mod6: where's the camera crew?
mod6: am i being punk'd?
mod6: i gotta dig through the logs now.
asciilifeform: wai everyone so tense.
mod6: it's totally fine if that's how we want it.
mod6: i just feel like we've been here before. like i have some pavalonian response from this.
mod6: (former lumps from having this impl before, and then removing it to its current state)
ben_vulpes: i'm pretty sure the design as described above is correct. the way i imagined this working in steady state is for patches and .seals to accumulate all of the patches and signatures thereof a user'd seen over all of history, and then the contents of .wot used to filter the patches and press used to pick a head.
mod6: i am being punk'd
a111: Logged on 2015-12-21 22:15 mircea_popescu: so /me gives new girl task to press v, half hour ago. other than the url issue above, "hey what sigs should i put in here ?"
ben_vulpes: and yes, this implies an o(n^2) worst case process in (or (map 'boolean (lambda (sig) (verify 'some_patch.vpatch' sig)))
ben_vulpes: mod6: nobody is trolling
mod6: read the link! that's exactly what it does right now, this very minute.
ben_vulpes: no, that's death() ing on a patch for which the system had valid seals, yours and mine.
ben_vulpes: just because mircea_popescu didn't complain about the failure at the time doesn't make it right.
trinque: << this excusing us because we're the right team is ridiculous by now.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 00:58 asciilifeform: << it most assuredly does not. git has hidden state.
ben_vulpes: trinque: augh no please no
asciilifeform: trinque been drinkin' or wat
deedbot: << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 2486...1113 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <>; ' (Unknown US MO)
deedbot: << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1579...5447 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <>; ' (Unknown ID JK)
trinque: if V does not "verify sigs of >1 important people ~to me~ at each step of doing anything" where exactly does it diverge from git
ben_vulpes: phf: can i get in the experimental patchset in your viewer?
phf: se
trinque: less messy code is not enough
ben_vulpes: phf: ty
trinque: and what, I have to be drinking to see this? spent pages criticizing the horrible, accidental evolution of cat.
ben_vulpes: phf: elaborate on pbf link?
trinque: but we can "just wante to press" because god's children
asciilifeform: trinque: my original, unpublished vtron, only pressed (tracking the dependency flow), and user was expected to check the pgp sigs of the inputs, with bare hands, prior
asciilifeform: then i decided that it could be useful to glue these ops together, so that variant-wot operation is possible.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu immediately realized what can be done with this knob and wrote, iirc , entire article re same
asciilifeform: ( recall, we had been trb-ing with exclusively signed patches since start of trb, but folx other than asciilifeform were having headache determining the correct order to apply in )
phf: ben_vulpes: this was a general comment, but the cost of failure is so high, simple things have become needlessly complicated.
trinque: internal consistency is not a huge ask.
asciilifeform: phf: this is not wholly avoidable, imho, folx laugh at airplane chairs or surgical scalpels costing thousands of usd, but in some sense it is inevitable
asciilifeform: the cost of failure - gets amortized.
asciilifeform: and much better for it to be amortized in expensive chairs, than in total lack of risk-taking
ben_vulpes: that there are 3 implementations of v is an indicator of healthy amounts of risk taking.
trinque: this squirming away from "why does the output not match the pages of ideology" is troubling.
asciilifeform: i was addressing mod6's 'damn, why did i even try' lament
asciilifeform: trinque: are you thinking of mod6's minor bug , or of some other
asciilifeform: ( the bug, as mircea_popescu iirc also pointed out, was in the direction of making his vtron ~stricter~, of forbidding entirely legit ops, so not catastrophic)
ben_vulpes: trinque: i don't follow either
mod6: im <+ben_vulpes> just because mircea_popescu didn't complain about the failure at the time doesn't make it right. << maybe.
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> no, that's death() ing on a patch for which the system had valid seals, yours and mine. << this i dont agree with -- from a technical perspective. it looks to me that girl had "ascii and mod6" in .wot, and when it came across Mr. P.'s genesis .sig, it honked.
mod6: now, we not want that behviour any longer.
mod6: but i'm trying to get down to brass tacks as much as possible.
ben_vulpes: these are separate issues
mod6: i'm happy to re-write/overhaul/whatever this thing.
ben_vulpes: 1) pressing vpatches absent signatures matching keys in .wot
mod6: just wanna make sure we all understand what we want.
ben_vulpes: 2) death()-ing on signatures for which a key does not exist in .wot
ben_vulpes: 1) is incorrect imho and 2) also incorrect imho
ben_vulpes: could be argued out of 2)
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes had a quite complete exposition on my original vtron
asciilifeform: iirc he a) fully understood how it behaves b) tendered no major objections
ben_vulpes: which i wrote before putting down a single line of code.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: did your v exit when finding signatures without matching keys? i do not recall.
mod6: i posit that it did indeed.
mod6: infact, i stole that error message.
asciilifeform: guess what, looks like the published version -- indeed did.
asciilifeform: i ended up turning that into a warning, vs fatal, but it looks like i never posted this variant.
ben_vulpes: then wot-variant presses were never possible with the originally released v?
asciilifeform: apparently not!!
ben_vulpes: then i object to it now.
asciilifeform: so mod6 isn't hallucinating, he simply blindly copied my buggy original.
mod6: let's fight about it.
ben_vulpes: and argument ad that's how it was done does not carry
mod6: lol
trinque: my objects can be better stated as an irritation that the political considerations here do not seem to be driving the conversation.
trinque: ben_vulpes: right
trinque: *objections
asciilifeform: trinque: expand
trinque: V as conceived as a political weapon against the shitsucking github fuck does not work without the attribution the signatures provide
asciilifeform: this is quite true
trinque: my digestion of the notion of opposable signatures produces this output.
phf: ben_vulpes: this subthread since your response to my original statement is one example of what i'm talking about. in this case none of the v implementations are on btcbase, because nobody wants to sign own hacks, because the cost of failure is too high.
asciilifeform: nobody proposed, iirc, to begin to publish unsigned turds, or to accept same off the net and press, etc
asciilifeform: phf: fwiw i signed mine on release
trinque: but there is a place to do so, where there could be separation between the lab and the published-in-journal
ben_vulpes: phf: asciilifeform signed his, iirc i signed mine
mod6: mine is signed 69 times for sure.
trinque: I have released several pieces of homegrown signed code
ben_vulpes: with 'not battlefield ready' all over it, but nevertheless.
phf: none of them are genesis + vpatch revisions.
asciilifeform: phf: iirc mod6 made one
trinque: and fwiw phf I merely said "do not come to me asking about phf", recently. I did not say further.
ben_vulpes: phf: now tell me if that's sloth or fear
phf: well, last time i brought it up with mod6 he said something along the lines of "i'm not ready to sign, because it's still work in progress"
mod6: creating a genesis is a different thing too; v create a genesis of v. which i did work out, but alas, as you are eluding to, i never published because was nervous that it hadn't been very well audited yet.
phf: ^
asciilifeform: cost of failure, sometimes you simply live with. i signed FUCKGOATS, and it is a 'sapper makes 1 mistake' item, it is not possible to repair the units if i had made a mistake.
mod6: and who knows, imho, there's no gigantic rush to make a genesis for v. especially when we're still trying to work out how it should work.
ben_vulpes: << i believe some are laboring under the impression that eggog == hole
a111: Logged on 2016-01-24 03:21 mircea_popescu: to put it in you'll have to sign it. if it turns out later to have a hole, people will negrate you.
trinque: real quick what the hell is eggog
ben_vulpes: russification of 'error'
ben_vulpes: r sounds like g to them or something
asciilifeform: sound had 0 to do with it
asciilifeform: it was orcs blindly copying human tech
ben_vulpes: scuse me
phf: ben_vulpes: see i'm not even sure which one of you is kidding. ~possibly~ neither :D
ben_vulpes: phf: i'm just wrong
ben_vulpes: completely misremembering ru alphabet lessons, apparently.
trinque now meta-eggog'd
phf: ben_vulpes: well, actually "r" pronounced as "g" is an infamous yiddish lisp
ben_vulpes: we digress
mod6: anyway, yes.
mod6: i do want that traceibility from V, of my V.
mod6: And I'm happy to embark on a genesis once we resolve these current problems and the testing and review by lords is complete.
ben_vulpes: i hold that exiting on discovery of a seal with no corresponding key in .wot puts an unnecessary burden on the operator to maintain system state.
mod6: i like the idea that you've got 'mod6 & ben_vulpes' in your .wot, and that you hvae 69,000 sigs in your .seals dir, and only select out the ones that match the .wot.
mod6: that seems fine, and yes, less painful to me.
phf: ben_vulpes: well, the point of V that has been celebrated is its ability to support a scientific dialog. you say something, i make a response, etc. this thread was literally about three different versions, one of them is stale, one of them is unreleased. there's not really an easy way to point to the line and say "oh this is what this does" etc. i claim that the source of this problem is fear. the genesis has to be perfect for all
phf: eternity, or else!1
asciilifeform: there is a 'harem-v' and a 'forum-v'
asciilifeform: i dun recall anyone, any time recently, disputing the functionality of the latter
asciilifeform: all of the 'bickening' seems to concern 'harem-v'
mod6: phf: naw. even mircea_popescu has encouraged me to release it, even if it has warts.
asciilifeform: i.e. the mechanism whereby you press a set for own consumption
mod6: im just trying to minimize the warts a bit.
trinque: ben_vulpes: what does the thing do if not exit?
trinque: presses the thing sealed because ambiguous somebody signed?
phf: well, since collective reaction is "tis but a scratch" i have nothing else to say, and will happily await mircea_popescu's unrate
ben_vulpes: trinque: all three implementations show which keys signed which patches in flow output.
asciilifeform: all 3 implementation were also (correctly) 'fail-deadly'
trinque: how is this effective use of crypto at all?
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: 'press if no signature is found'?
ben_vulpes: i do not believe that mine did that.
asciilifeform: that is, i know of no case where an unsealed, or invalidly sealed, or sealed by nonexistent pubkey, patch, would be pressed without the user having explicitly flipped the red cover and disabled the reactor coolant pump
ben_vulpes: we just saw that in, did we not?
ben_vulpes: instigated the whole brouhaha
asciilifeform goes and rereads mod6's thread
trinque: ben_vulpes: what keys, you said you don't have them anywhere
ben_vulpes: trinque: if all vpatches from genesis to HEAD carry a signature corresponding to a key in .wot, v presses. that signatures exist in .seals for people i don't choose to put the key for into .wot should not matter.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: right you are. his - did
ben_vulpes: and sure, if .wot is the empty set, return true ;)
ben_vulpes: error, really. making a null set joke.
mod6: with some minor tweaks
ben_vulpes: phf: thank you
phf: ah, yeah i see. ok i'll keep funken one in experimental too, and move it to deprecated eventually
trinque: if I am truthfully the only one present that sees parts of the hard definition of this thing falling off all the time I'll leave it there.
ben_vulpes: mod6: aha, privkey_tools descends from the low_s and testnet patches
trinque: but I cannot see *why* they should other than "I just want to"
ben_vulpes: trinque: please say what hard definitions are lost.
asciilifeform: trinque: if you'd like to take a stab at a formal definition, i promise to read
trinque: were they not in the logs?
asciilifeform: formal definitions don't live in the logs
asciilifeform: gotta write actual article trinque
ben_vulpes: trinque: best i saw was that you want more than one seal and i'm content with one
trinque: I see other folks here discussing in logs.
asciilifeform: when we discuss in the logs, it can be many things, but not formal definition.
trinque: << this destroys the ~who~ of each seal, which matters
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:40 ben_vulpes: 2) death()-ing on signatures for which a key does not exist in .wot
trinque: you do not trust the seal; you trust the identity
trinque: otherwise yes, asciilifeform is right that if this doesn't matter, just have a thing that presses patches with hashes in the m
ben_vulpes: one can have either "die on discovery of seal for which wot lacks key" or "wot variant press"
trinque: but first the definition
trinque: does it matter or not who signed?
ben_vulpes: of course it does, that's what .wot is for.
ben_vulpes: i reserve the right to hold onto gavins patches and never press them by use of .wot.
trinque: why is V for your private perversions? lel
ben_vulpes: i get the impression i disastrously fail to understand your point, trinque .
ben_vulpes: i will motherfucking *not* shuffle both patches/* and .wot/* around when i want to press. this is stupid and carves off a whole space of adjacent possible.
trinque: the thing is a political tool, and either does or does not acheive its desired effects
ben_vulpes: what purposes are these
trinque: that is not what I said
trinque: it aims to cause you to do certain things
ben_vulpes: these things?
ben_vulpes: lol "it's purpose is to cause"
trinque: attribute changes to the definitions of words with your ass
ben_vulpes: that did not parse over here
trinque: one can say the purpose of the bomb was to explode over there but that's ridiculously backwards
trinque: I put it there and chemical reactions happened and so on.
trinque: V is a harsh constraint upon the programmer that says that his acts will be unavoidably attributable to him, and those that vouched for him.
trinque: "push this button to make it stop hurting" has no place in the tool
trinque: make another tool
ben_vulpes: let's rewind: what does trinque miss when v finds a seal for a vpatch for which it doesn't find a key and proceeds merrily, provided it does find *a* seal for the patch that corresponds to a key in .wot?
trinque: what
trinque: are you saying lean on the gpg keyring then?
trinque: otherwise I could swear that was the same thing twice
asciilifeform: in all extant vtrons, gpg keyring is nulled at boot
asciilifeform: (it gets a temp dir jail)
trinque: yes, so, how do I parse that statement.
asciilifeform: trinque: a patch, so long as there exists 1 seal for it, and that seal corresponds to a key in your active wot -- is valid.
asciilifeform: and pressable.
trinque: oh christ
trinque: yes
mod6: i think, he's saying, what is the benefit of V honking when it doesn't find a key in your wot that matches a seal in your seal dir, provided that you don't pull a mod6.
asciilifeform: a seal, on the other hand, floating about without an active pubkey, for for that matter without a corresponding patch, is inert.
trinque: we had just discussed pressing things with no sig
trinque: and I was all hot and bothered
trinque: thank you for your patience gentlemen
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 01:40 ben_vulpes: 2) death()-ing on signatures for which a key does not exist in .wot
ben_vulpes: anytime trinque
asciilifeform: trinque: there were 2 separate cases where this happened. mod6's buggy vtron (which he fixed today), and mine when the self-appendectomy-time-turn-off-pain-receptor switch flipped.
ben_vulpes: i'm changing diapers over here, it's a wonder that even asciilifeform can make sense of what i'm saying.
mod6: i proposed a fix for mine. i think it was ultimiately rejected.
mod6: it sounds like everyone wants instead, a general overhaul to get to the 'wot variant press' instead, which would also fix the bug, because these vpatches, without a corresponding seal, would simply be ignored.
mod6: i apologize for this oversight about the WILD patches.
ben_vulpes: provided the implementation fails if any patch in the flow has *no* signatures from keys in .wot, that sounds right.
ben_vulpes: (and in the absence of a WILD boolean, asciilifeform's pain-receptor-switch)
mod6: i thought you didn't want it to fail.
mod6: i thought that you just wanted to it to be left out of any possible flow.
asciilifeform: mod6: 'leave out of all possible flow' is the correct answer.
ben_vulpes: i think this is 'implementation detail'.
ben_vulpes: well, hang on. if patches with no sigs are omitted from flow, they won't show up as WILD in the flow, correct?
ben_vulpes: they should still appear in the flow but marked as wild.
mod6: no
mod6: they will never, ever show up.
mod6: you will, you must, have everything signed for it to show up in a pressable flow.
ben_vulpes: pressable being operative word there.
ben_vulpes: "flow" refers to the antecedent chain, nothing else.
mod6: this is why they exist in the first place, these WILD vpatches, because my impl wasn't written with this in mind. i was more written with the idea that a guy would place things in .wot/.seals/patches by hand and would know what is what.
mod6: but i apologize, and see that this is the wrong way. and there is a better way.
ben_vulpes: the antecedent chain can be constructed without ever needing to refer to the signing of patches, and imho should show all patches in the flow, alongside which keys signed them and if none then marked as wild
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> pressable being operative word there. << it is inconsequencial.
ben_vulpes: as asciilifeform's original and mine did.
mod6: if you were to print the flow, it would still not show up.
mod6: the printable flow, is the same as the pressable flow.
mod6: and this would be predicated upon who is in your .wot.
ben_vulpes: flow is simply the directed acyclic graph of patches, and is *not* predicated on wot contents.
asciilifeform: the only time a vtron must hard-fail, is when it is impossible for it to operate in finite time, i.e. the case where it detects a graph cycle.
ben_vulpes: wot filters what may be pressed.
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> flow is simply the directed acyclic graph of patches, and is *not* predicated on wot contents. << disagree.
mod6: it is completely dependant on this.
asciilifeform: variant wot can alter flow, but only by disrupting it
asciilifeform: (say a necessary link in a chain is torn out because you nixed a wot key)
mod6: because why would i want gavin's vpatch stuck in the middle of my flow, if he's not in my wot?
mod6: pressable or printable, doesn't matter. the wot is the dictator.
ben_vulpes: fact remains that the dag can be constructed without reference to the wot.
mod6: it *can*, but shouldn't be.
ben_vulpes: that we print it as a list is an unfortunate accident.
asciilifeform: i am failing to discern what, if anything, is in dispute here, so i will bbl. possibly it will be more evident from the log.
mod6: ben_vulpes: i actually love that feature.
ben_vulpes: mod6: may construct his flow and press list in his v impl however he wants
mod6: lol, anyway.
ben_vulpes: but if it doesn't show me which patches are lacking sigs, that strikes me as a bug.
ben_vulpes: and this can only be done by calculating the dag and then indicating who signed which patches.
mod6: i mean, we could do it that way... where the printable flow tells you which do not have sigs, but then impl-wise, they must be two different lists as to not inadvertantly press out a WILD vpatch. that, or re-check the flow at press time.
mod6: im tired.
mod6: *sigh*
mod6: bbl
deedbot: << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1458...4139 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <>; ' (Unknown US MO)
deedbot: << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1267...4229 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <>; ' (Unknown CN)
deedbot: << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1267...4229 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <>; ' (Unknown CN)
deedbot: << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1471...7653 divides RSA Moduli belonging to ' (ssh-rsa key from (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <>; ' (Unknown ID JK)
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 846.47, vol: 10974.12183947 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 829.796, vol: 8476.20638 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 841.0, vol: 16145.49930604 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 860.913408, vol: 4900738.35200000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 843.411, vol: 2235.76989277 | Volume-weighted last average: 860.754879403
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