#trilema | 2019-03-18

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform myeah.

asciilifeform: meanwhile, in misc. lulz, http://qntra.net/2019/03/hate-strife-and-hate-strife-a-week-in-review/#comment-125935

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-17#1902996 << whole thing imho interesting.

a111: Logged on 2019-03-17 15:28 mircea_popescu: http://archive.is/febOU#selection-149.0-155.207 is precisely the example i was looking for in http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-06#1900631

asciilifeform: http://archive.is/febOU#selection-113.0-119.197 << asciilifeform picked up 'jonesforth' ~decade ago, and barfed from this very thing

asciilifeform: ( it's entirely ok as illustration of forthism, but absolutely terrible from 'bootstrap' pov , for the reason described in linked piece )

asciilifeform: http://archive.is/febOU#selection-207.0-207.164 << imho if a lang is intrinsically difficult to bootstrap, it (and/or ~the iron~ chosen for the attempt) is thereby defective.

asciilifeform: ( see e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897834 thread )

a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 23:49 asciilifeform: if we had a sane iron, would be similarly easy to produce a back end ( and that's what asciilifeform thinks of as 'ada machine' )

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform whole thing interesting indeed.

mircea_popescu: bvt is the author still alive btw ?

asciilifeform: http://bvt-trace.net/2019/03/mes-part-1-stage0/#selection-29.94-29.340 << imho ~100% of the attempts on record , made exactly same mistake -- they assumed that 'architecture-specific aspects creep into the design of the boostrapping process' only concerns ~what is there~ in the arch, and not ~what is not there~ (e.g. sane memory management, type tags) . if you dun put the complexity of certain necessary sanities where it belongs -- i

asciilifeform: n iron -- you get 9000x the mass later.

asciilifeform: picture if i had made ffa deal in 32bit words, and then proclaimed 'implement bignum on that'. do you imagine the result would be in any sense 'fits in head' ?

mircea_popescu: this is very much a point.

asciilifeform: all of these folx, afaik, do ~exact same thing, they take the school cpu from their kindergarten textbook and proclaim 'hey this fits in head, let's bootstrap on it'

asciilifeform: the result is ~always~ a massive ball o'shit ~later~

asciilifeform: but author rarely cares to think about 'later'

asciilifeform: the notion that 'all irons are the same' , while correct in a narrow mathematical sense , has done a good bit of damage . arguably turned entire field into garbage, at that.

bvt: hello

bvt: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-17#1902991 << as far as the 'stage0' is concerned, there is one guy manaloneing (OriansJ in #bootstrappable), and a dozen of people watching. can't say anything about 'mes' yet, it has a different author.

a111: Logged on 2019-03-17 15:05 mircea_popescu: bvt http://archive.is/febOU#selection-89.0-89.194 << are these people still active or is it basically ozymandias over there ?

bvt: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-17#1903106 << i also agree that it is; i don't find myself knowledgable enough to make a decision on the republican cpu architecture, but for bootstrapping using ice40 with its limited resources a simple mips core sounded fitting.

a111: Logged on 2019-03-17 18:55 mircea_popescu: IMO it makes no sense adopting the VM, given that apparently mips.v7 will be the republican CPU architecture on ice40. << i very much not agree ; much too soon to standardize this.

asciilifeform: ( on the other end of the barf -- picture, C is what they want to bootstrap. because somehow can have sanity while preserving GB of pointerfandangoandcrashlang in the stack, somehow . )

asciilifeform: i suspect that the 'let's bootstrap c' thing comes from a narrow fixation on thompsonism to the exclusion of the other 9000 leprosies of the pdp age.

bvt: asciilifeform: yes, this is a problem; for example, their x86_64 hex0-2, as little sense as this can make (in presence of intel me&etc), are done as linux binaries: currently their goal is to bootstrap linux

asciilifeform: pretty sad imho.

asciilifeform: i.e. to go through the sweat of building an arch, only to then plant kernighan and poettering on top again.

bvt: otoh, author did mention that most of the tools can be easily made to work on e.g. dos

asciilifeform: bvt: was this 'can' accompanied by a 'did' ?

bvt: nope, it's not 'did' even for linux; this work is in WIP, not even alpha stage.

bvt: it's just that if components fit in head, imo alpha/beta does not apply

asciilifeform: characteristically of people who set out to solve the Wrong Problem , they will trip over own feet 9000 times and learn 0

bvt: well, the question is then, whether we want to do this for cuntoo -- this work will need some resources dedicated to it.

asciilifeform: i cannot speak for others, but from my pov cuntoo is a wartime t34 , and defo not something i like to picture myself using 20y from nao

asciilifeform: ( or for that matter any other unix, ditto )

bvt: i.e. finishing stage0/mes integration, and also there is a problem of bootstrapping gnat

asciilifeform: ( ditto gnat. the troo adatron would be a ~50kloc bolix-style ada on sane iron support, rather than crusty old gnat )

BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> i cannot speak for others, but from my pov cuntoo is a wartime t34 , and defo not something i like to picture myself using 20y from nao << Someone's probably sealing Cuntoo'd devices in cement within 5 years

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i know for a fact that there exist pdp8 in actual cement, last i knew still processing inputs . so it aint entirely out of the question.

asciilifeform: imho nuffin linus et al shat out rises to anywhere near the level you'd want for this, but again 'you go to war with army you have'(tm)(r) etc

BingoBoingo: A lot of questions are very very open, but cement is one of the cheaper ingredients in the seal in cement formula.

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: funnily enuff, even ~this~ is trickier than you think -- ordinary cement ( and epoxies as well ) cure exothermically

asciilifeform: and tend to bake semiconductor

asciilifeform has a jar of non-exothermic epoxy for potting electronics, it aint cheap

BingoBoingo: Sure, this is why concrete dust is such a hazard to have uncontained.

asciilifeform: mno this aint why

BingoBoingo: Well, burn hazard

asciilifeform: concrete dust (like all combustible dusts) is a 'fuel-air' boom

BingoBoingo: That's just a more dramatic mode of being a burn hazard

asciilifeform: old sovok practicaljoak -- shake out bag of flour in a room, then leave the light bulb with filament sans glass

BingoBoingo: If they Uruguayos had humor and lightbulbs they could try as well.

feedbot: http://pizarroisp.net/2019/03/18/pizarro-isp-march-18th-update/ << PizarroISP -- Pizarro ISP March 18th Update

asciilifeform: consider the not-uninteresting fact, that on 370,000-transistor bolix, ada was 50kloc ; while on 3bil+-transistor x86, ada (gnat cum gcc cum deps) is , what, 1mil+ ? and their kernel was iirc ~50kloc, while ours...

asciilifeform: and it aint even necessary to saw open a bolix to see why this was. they didn't have to have a did_machine_do_what_i_said(...) after ~erry line.

asciilifeform: nor a does_this_pointer_point_to_hell() , etc

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: ffa is 3 ch away from fieldable beta atm ; so in attempt to avoid ending up like mod6 , i'm currently 100% in it. afterwards will switch for a spell to 100% elbows in piz.

asciilifeform: ( to be pedantic -- peh. ffa proper , is imho done, unless a reader finds apeloyee-style 'here's where you could have 2x faster' thing )

BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Cool. Once the test subject gets here I'll start working on learning Cuntoo through practice.

asciilifeform: if someone thinks he needs a ~number-theoretical~ knob that 1) is missing in current ffa 2) cannot be efficiently baked out of the primitives -- he had better speak up soon.

asciilifeform: ( ideally i could rule out the existence of such thing as a class, but alas cannot )

asciilifeform: the knobs still on conveyor are -- subroutines; hash ; constant-time table lookups. that's it.

asciilifeform: asmism , i consider a luxury -- ffa is designed to operate reasonably quickly on commonplace iron without it.

asciilifeform: in other lulz, karpeles walks.

asciilifeform: 'suspended sentence'

BingoBoingo: I'm trying to figure out a way to frame Fat Mark's walk as news.

asciilifeform: it aint a mega-surprise, imho, which is wai imho it merits 1ln in l0gz but not entire dispatch.

asciilifeform: ( tho if BingoBoingo writes the latter, i'ma read )

BingoBoingo: Well, he's also locked into it with some other derps, both groups wanting to resurrect a MtGox

asciilifeform: lol wainot also resurrect 'west indies co' and 'savings & loan' etc

BingoBoingo: And I'm not seeing any motive to revive the toxic MtGox brand other than psyop value "Look at those Buttcoiners forgiving the scamzor"

asciilifeform: and kpss.

asciilifeform: i suppose there is a 'no such thing as bad publicity' school of 'thought'...

BingoBoingo: In locals almost, but not quite getting it http://archive.is/o6wvu

BingoBoingo: And in other tales of Chorros Uruguayos: "Interrogado sobre lo ocurrido, admitió su responsabilidad, pero aseguró que el siniestro había sido accidental. En su declaración explicó que su intención era robar el combustible de la moto, y en medo de la oscuridad intentó ayudarse haciendo luz con un encendedor. Como resultado, el combustible ardió y la moto fue consumida. Además, el ladrón sufrió quemaduras en manos y pies."

asciilifeform: lol!

BingoBoingo: Note "robar el combustible" is a common sort of venerated trabajo among Mujica voters

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: do they have those fancy locking tank caps like in '90s ru ? or notyet

BingoBoingo: I've not seen many

BingoBoingo: This neighborhood's trash is apparently good enough to keep the demographic from taking the risk with gasoline theft here.

BingoBoingo: Not usually police risk, but risk of other bums "Don't ruin a good thing retard"

feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/03/us-air-base-home-to-stratcom-hit-by-river-flooding/ << Qntra -- US Air Base Home To STRATCOM Hit By River Flooding

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-17#1903082 << discussion in teh haremobile meanwhile excavated a 4th possible line of reasoning, "the perversity of human nature, can only do something when it's not what's supposed to be done -- then and then only is it ok." witness all the kids going to college to party (that's not what it's for, which is what makes it ok).

a111: Logged on 2019-03-17 17:01 mircea_popescu: anyway, BingoBoingo 's theory can also be constructed into a third possible explanation : VHS america for a new generation, "they're so loose there, so '''freee''', sons even fuck their mothers!!!" thinks 19yo chowdry rasmadumberthanrockes while wanking it in glee.

BingoBoingo: That's a very live possibility

asciilifeform: there was an old mircea_popescu piece where 'the french set up elaborate system for fucking each other's wives' etc

mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo do i win the prize for lengthiest trilema comment ?

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so did the airmen of the 50s. prior to the clinton putsch.

asciilifeform: i recall

BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: It appears to be the winner on Qntra as far as comments that didn't get spammed. Some of the spams stretch on and on with links to nowhere.

mircea_popescu: a yeah. cool!

mircea_popescu meant qntra, said trilema...

BingoBoingo: Well, habit

mircea_popescu: in other lulz, doesn't "offut" look like a misspelling ?

BingoBoingo: 4srs

BingoBoingo: But, that corner is/was Nordic US, I don't think it got to participate much in the America days of the colonies

mircea_popescu: guess not.

BingoBoingo: Buncha sad Swedes and other Nordics building apartments in their barns and living in that arrangement until Rooseveltism disrupted them.

asciilifeform: to briefly revisit older unrelateds , http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-15#1902888 >> will be also 256 permissible subroutines, unless mircea_popescu et al disagree

a111: Logged on 2019-03-15 15:10 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i think 256 is perfectly defensible. should be obvious what knob to twiddle for less or more anyway, admitting either one's trying to make ffa fit into tiny embed or use it for who knows what unforeseen purpose on large machines.

mircea_popescu: this sort of thing can't be well answered without practice anyway. if it needs revisiting, it'll be revisited under the pressure of all these people using all these hundreds of sub clals.

asciilifeform: ( this is the last param to be put to this q, where walk b/w 'scylla' of magicnumberism and 'charybdis' of unknownramfootprintism )

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: imho nuffin pertaining to publickey crypto has any fucking biznis containing anywhere near 256 routines

asciilifeform: and sure will be revisited if it had to be . but i try and presently fail to come up with a scenario where it oughta be, rather than answer of 'take braindamaged pubkey that needs 257 routines somewhere else, ty'

asciilifeform bbl,meat

asciilifeform: for thread-completeness : 'peh' has exactly 50 subroutines ( 37 procedures, 13 functions ) ; ffa : 245 ( 166 procedures , 79 functions ) .

asciilifeform: this is counting i/o glue and errything .

asciilifeform: ( and subs internal to subs, permitted in ada planet just as they are in pascal )

mircea_popescu: danielpbarron dood, the sort of lukewarm morons you're "contending" with...

mircea_popescu: really, doesn't teh superficial idiocy of it all grate you any ?

danielpbarron: yes

mircea_popescu: it's like dealing with [what i remember to be 12yo boys]. "oh, bitcoin, yeah, i remember, all i bought was a single pizza. biggest regret!!!".

mircea_popescu: prior to this, my icon of such boyish idiocy would have been this chatlog from sometime around the first iraq war, where some kid literally pretended to be teleporting himself over there for half an hour or somesuch. because you know, he's such a debonair cool dude and all, the coming together of cellphone trend and "working for cia" trend in a thick sauce of general cluelessness.

mircea_popescu: i suppose now this can take over, on the grounds that at least it's linkable. just as fucking iconic at any rate.

mircea_popescu: after all, previous one took over on account of being public, from the even earlier private equivalent.

asciilifeform: in unrelated 'for laters' noose, asciilifeform got hold of 2 moar 'ivory' cpus (brings total # of samples in asciilifeform's house o'horrors to 5 )

asciilifeform: lulzily, i ended up with 3 having consecutive (hand-written, in ancient ink) serial #s.

mircea_popescu: heh

asciilifeform: teleporting himself << lol!! oblig : http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-12#1895439

a111: Logged on 2019-02-12 15:39 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i associate shitoverflow with articles like 'how do i cast 'fireball' in real life?' ( actual find )

mircea_popescu: im sorry i wasn't more documentary minded at the time, and so item was regrettably lost.

mircea_popescu: but it was something else.

asciilifeform recalls lengthy passage in 'malleus' where author ponders whether witches pilot broomstick, or merely teleport

mircea_popescu: (in which same vein, i was lately looking for a picture im pretty sure i published, described in http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-12#1901441 ; also just as lost. the one thing with idiocy is that it's readily lost, and then just as readily found again.)

a111: Logged on 2019-03-12 03:02 mircea_popescu: there's this pic of some indistinct slut i posted once i'm too lazy to retrieve. she happens to be white, sports all manner of celtic cross tattoos, stylisized "SS" etc, is taking a coupla brown dicks.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i suspect you had slightly moar audaciously lyin' 12yos in mircea_popescustan -- where asciilifeform was, more common pattern was 'my father is a general + admiral + auto racer'

asciilifeform: then again, ~those~ were 8yos. perhaps they graduated to teleportation.

mircea_popescu: heh. had those too, but too trite to recall.

mircea_popescu: ah, no, the teleportation item was early 2000s.

mircea_popescu: incidentally, tom green does a pretty decent job of mocking the immediately previous generation of retards, late 90s, scene with the cellphone in http://trilema.com/2019/freddy-got-fingered/

asciilifeform: 2000s was in 'golden age' where simply net connection did not automatically put you in range of 12yo spew , so asciilifeform (not having younger siblings , nor teaching kindergarten) did not find out what they were doing in 2000s

mircea_popescu: "I say GENEVA, and you hear HELSINKI?!? YOU'RE FIRED BOB!!!!"

mircea_popescu: https://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=intl&id=freddygotfingered.htm << ridoinculous.

mircea_popescu: i can't imagine how that thing made only 14mn.

asciilifeform: 'creative accounting' for tax ?

asciilifeform: http://trilema.com/2019/freddy-got-fingered/#selection-127.100-127.213 << i had 1 of these ( admittedly when/where it did not quite require being mircea_popescu to get hold of it ) -- and 1 interesting aspect was that they shat out analogue/plaintext

asciilifeform: if you had a non-usg-blessed wideband tuner, would hear'em

mircea_popescu: either that or "You know what gets no airplay ?"

asciilifeform: or that

mircea_popescu: aha. they were pretty cool, imo.

asciilifeform: sorta how auto is also prettycool if 1 in 100 has it, rather than 'rush hour' jam

asciilifeform: ( aaand net pipe, back when one had to go through some effort to... etc )

mircea_popescu: i dunno abgout that, i never felt like blogging on pico.

asciilifeform: well, usenet and 'pine'

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-18#1903274 << wtf was that.. ro reddit ?

a111: Logged on 2019-03-18 23:20 mircea_popescu: after all, previous one took over on account of being public, from the even earlier private equivalent.

mircea_popescu: some "blogger" / retard.

mircea_popescu: you recall how bitcoin had a buncha ex-lumberjacks / drunks / vagrants etc suddenly become "respectable businessmen" cca 2012 ?

asciilifeform finds that for all the 'modern' , still ends up writing hand-htm to throw into it just like al schwartz in 1995

asciilifeform: aa yes

mircea_popescu: romania had a bunch of ~same suddenly become "bloggers" and whatnot, "influencers" cca 2007 or so.

asciilifeform: i'd imagine all moved on to arsebook / shitter / etc by nao

mircea_popescu: this particular schmuck kept a little corner kiosk sellign chewing gum & such. you've seen the manner in paraguay i imagine. then went bankrupt, and "rediscovered" himself as a public speaker.

mircea_popescu: well, internet-public, but anyway.

asciilifeform: uru- but yeah

mircea_popescu: right.

asciilifeform: valhalla of sovok-style kiosk

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo has the details

mircea_popescu: there was a bunch of them, the lulziest characters. ex port-worker (not even fucking kidding), and then ~completely ignorant~ of history, too!

asciilifeform: 'кто был ничем тот станет всем'(tm)(r)

mircea_popescu: kinda the lulzy thing about "popular feeling", that it is at the same time tediously trite in the objective, and then burningly personal in the subjective.

mircea_popescu: every pagliacci feels deep down a burning urge -- HE IS INVENTING CUCKOLDRY!!!! MAKE ROOM!!!