No Such lAbs
trilemaasciilifeformossasepiapizarroeuloraspyked
14m2h 41m1h 49m7h 48m7h 48m9h 13m
Pizarro



mircea_popescu: and for the rotaku club : https://ro.wikisource.org/wiki/A_zecea_muz%C4%83 (one of caragiale's best satires, utterly destructuring "modern" world.)
BingoBoingo: Local cop shop burglarized: https://archive.is/Tbxb5
billymg: Mocky: i plan to have my recent remove-tinymce patch updated to go on top of hanbot's this weekend, if you'd like to use for http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-27#1904998
a111: Logged on 2019-03-27 00:55 Mocky: I'm going to finish moving my blog over to mpwp this week. I expect I'll need some pizarro assistance for go-live. Then Imma post remaining handful of Qatar posts, including video of my address to Doha derpchain gathering.
billymg: a freshly pressed copy of the divergent patch found here http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=mp-wp&search= has been running on my blog since sunday though
billymg: and i did pretty thorough local QAing before publishing, but having more testers would be great
mircea_popescu: billymg, if you're happy with it, one thing you could do is patch your testing suite as an alternate patch off mp-wp genesis ; this way people looking to test can just use it (and patch atop it if need be) rather than write from scratch.
lobbesbot: mircea_popescu: Sent 2 hours and 53 minutes ago: <spyked> http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/mtpZa/?raw=true
mircea_popescu: same goes for whoever else has a good testing suite for whatever they're maintaining : publishing a "devel" branch, including testing and whatever else tooling in that vein is certainly a legitimate use of forking the v tree.
mircea_popescu: this way, someone looking to test presses to both heads and voila. it has the potential to significantly improve the quality of testing done, both in the sense of total and highwater mark.
mircea_popescu: mtpza, srsly ?
mircea_popescu: i guess it wasn't mtpzd, at least....
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> (i kinda suspect BingoBoingo would do a lot better with a partner on the grounds, tbh) << I suspect similar
mircea_popescu: well in the meanwhile stop burning so much incense on the melancholy temple. idle hands an' all that!!
BingoBoingo: Well, walks are getting easier now that the wind and chill is clearing the locals off the riverwalk
mircea_popescu: it's started here, the wind. it'd be tornado level anywhere else, it freely moves the damned car on the highway, "what the fuck, is my direction shot what the fuck is this ?!" "just windy" "holy shit!"
BingoBoingo: The extremes were more extreme back on the plains of old country, but here the baseline level of air movement is quite a bit higher.
mircea_popescu: !!up grangerstranger
deedbot: grangerstranger voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: grangerstranger, who the hell are you then ?
diana_coman: mircea_popescu: fwiw everything I published v-versioned has the tests included as a subdir with its own .gpr file and all that; I'm not sure a fork of the V-tree is really needed for this (i.e. deleting a whole dir is easier than maintaining a for as far as I see it atm).
diana_coman: a fork not a for, lol
mircea_popescu: diana_coman, word. it's more a thing for something like mp-wp, which is a sort of enduser app so to speak, than something like eucrypt that's basically a library, or in any case a building block intended for use in forging.
diana_coman: I can see it, yes.
diana_coman: re grangerstranger it's really that those never talking actually are ghosts even if poked? what a surprise
mircea_popescu: diana_coman, there's a pronstarlet the naming reminds me of.
mircea_popescu: https://twitter.com/kimmygrangerxxx
diana_coman: eh, what's to stop stealing internet names if images is too hard; but anyway.
mircea_popescu: nothing, certainly.
diana_coman: "Dudes are out here going to the gym to only work out their arms and chest and constantly skip everything below their torso." aahaha
diana_coman: in fairness though,I'd say it's untrue: there's LOTS of dicking around so they...try!
mircea_popescu: easy enough to check, on the other side. but yes, chick's a cut above the usual dickowsy.
mircea_popescu: "My friends: We really need to start talking nicer to eachother 4 minutes later: “You really are a stupid ass bitch”"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: afaik 'granger' is today an agricultural gear supplier in usa . ( named after 19th c union thing of some variety )
asciilifeform: so entirely generic string .
mircea_popescu: it was a fleeting momentary thought! such as occurs in my box occasionally! i'm not proposing marriage over here!!1
grangerstranger: what about me?
grangerstranger: unfortunately i got named by friends and it just kinda stuck
asciilifeform: grangerstranger: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-27#1905120 . very specific q. got answer ?
a111: Logged on 2019-03-27 17:49 mircea_popescu: grangerstranger, who the hell are you then ?
mircea_popescu: grangerstranger, what do you do for a living and why are you here would be decent starting points.
grangerstranger: im a magical being
grangerstranger: network security
mircea_popescu: a ok.
mircea_popescu: !!down grangerstranger
asciilifeform: gotta wonder re the thought process. door clearly marked 'If you don't know where you are, you shouldn't be here.' eh .
mircea_popescu: no markings are clear in modern democracy. it's written in the constitution : everyone is to be idemnified for all things they do not read.
BingoBoingo: ^ Pretty much the divide between Republic and the outside
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2019/lavare/ << Trilema -- L'avare
asciilifeform: in other noose ! http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/6rnvA/?raw=true << prelim. smoke test of ch18 example 2048b prime gen. http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/USsFD/?raw=true << sample output with timing. all the primes pass on e.g. wolfram's , if anyone has a favourite 3rdparty litmus, plox to try also when ch18 posted.
asciilifeform: on avg. takes 1 - 50 (worst so far) sec. on the 'standard' test box.
asciilifeform: will post coupla moar outs momentarily.
asciilifeform: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/4yRiK/?raw=true http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/5NJ3N/?raw=true http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/0jyWs/?raw=true .
asciilifeform: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/eCTfy/?raw=true http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/gmIsx/?raw=true http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/3184T/?raw=true .
asciilifeform: ^ 6 shots .
asciilifeform: grr, timings didn't make it in; range from <1 to 70sec
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu, diana_coman , et al ^ plox to comment .
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, what am i commenting on ?
asciilifeform: if the q returned a null, not problem, lol
asciilifeform: example is to illustrate style, i did not particularly doubt that it'd work as described .
mircea_popescu: i dun see the problem, so it takers a minute. current gpg takes as much, and ssh which doesn't is sucja cryptojoke as to not be worth the mention.
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2019/my-very-own-never-before-published-slut-famous-crab-dip-recipe/ << Trilema -- My very own, never before published, slut-famous, crab dip recipe
asciilifeform: the carryaway is that ( with operating fg ) it'll take <2min to bake a 4096bit key .
asciilifeform: on current ffa ( i.e. no asmisms )
mircea_popescu: nb.
asciilifeform: it's ~= the figure i predicted on napkin, but nao has experimental confirm.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: funnily enuff, koch takes approx same time, and that's with him not using rng witnesses at all iirc...
mircea_popescu: aha.
asciilifeform: prolly on acct of http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2906 -ism
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ssh iirc uses ellipticisms by default, so whole own category of joak
asciilifeform: grr, earlier typo, not ~1s fastest of course, but 16 , lol
asciilifeform: ~16 - ~70 range.
asciilifeform: granted for actual key will want also random e , and will reject some p,q,e triples based on the obvious rule
asciilifeform: ( so i expect will be ~7 min. or so per 4096b key, on iron of this horse )
asciilifeform: for thread-completeness, will add that it is possible to speed up the algo by giving not only 1 'primorial up to width' but it and then whichever number of product(n+1th-prime ... n+i-th prime) that yet again fit in the width, and so forth, for any desired # of small primes, for the initial sieve
asciilifeform: to reduce the # of sad candidates that m-r ends up eating
asciilifeform: ( naturally at no point will the algo complete faster than the time eaten by the given # of m-r rounds specified )
asciilifeform: tbh i cannot however think of when or where i would say 'ugh, 10min is too long for baking a 4096b key'..
asciilifeform: ( when 1st started ffa, was quite ready to live with 'keygen takes hour+' ftr )
asciilifeform: diana_coman back in the day posted old-style mpi timings but i do not know on what irons so cannot readily compare .
asciilifeform: 'A relatively short test run obtained 40 random primes of 2048 bits each in 13274 seconds in total (3.7 hours) meaning on average 331.85 seconds per prime (~6 minutes).'
asciilifeform: ( also had 'an average of 9.78 seconds per M-R run' , on again i dun presently know which irons )
asciilifeform: tho unless i misread, that ^ figure included 16 iterations thereof, rather than 1
asciilifeform: ( in asciilifeform's demo, proggy halts when candidate passes 32 rnds )
asciilifeform: aanyways i expect that when diana_coman gets to eating ch18, we can compare properly .
diana_coman: asciilifeform: timings sounds good to me; I have it on the list to get some timings for comparison when I get to eat full FFA, yes; atm though I can tell for sure that 10 minutes for generating key is both fine and rather fast even.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: no rush, we'll find out how compares on given $iron when you get around to 18 .
diana_coman: on that d1 intel from http://ossasepia.com/2019/02/28/zcx-vs-sjlj-data-set/#selection-113.0-113.85 the tests of eucrypt that generate a key pair take at times ~20 min, just to give an idea
asciilifeform: that's substantially faster box than mine ftr
asciilifeform: ( mine, used as ref for all ffa figs, is opteron 2393SE @ 3.1G )
asciilifeform: i also built at various points on a heathen i7 (2.8G) and there runs ~2x faster across the board, ftr
asciilifeform: ( the latter not used for any of the published tests, but to simply gauge the effect of 'modern' x86isms . fwiw does have constant-time mul etc )
asciilifeform: deliberately uses oldest opteron in the torture room as 'standard ffa gauge' , if wasn't obv.
asciilifeform: ftr rk is effectively 2x, as measured, slower than this gauge box , on ffa.
asciilifeform: i expect that as moar folx eat ffa, we will have moar empirical figs to compare.
asciilifeform: fwiw 'speed of ffa' for applications involving modexp ( rsa keygen & enc/dec ) hinges ~entirely on speed of the multiplier unit in $iron .
asciilifeform: ( troo from ch14b and up )
asciilifeform: bbl,tea
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2019/lavaro/ << Trilema -- L'avaro
Mocky: billymg: if your tinymce patch is ready this weekend I'll test it with my setup.
Mocky: I may end up having a follow up vpatch for mpwp as well
feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/03/british-soldier-faces-charges-over-friendly-fire-in-video-game-exercise/ << Qntra -- British Soldier Faces Charges Over Friendly Fire In Video Game Exercise
BingoBoingo: ^ From Spreadsheets in Space to Field Exercises in Spreadsheets!
mircea_popescu: whole tower of shit's derealizing at a shocking rate.
BingoBoingo: Seriousky, all that's left is shit and graft fulfilled with more shit
asciilifeform: in other noose, 100 shots of that 2048bit-prime baker : http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/DjaVe/?raw=true ; min=13, max=299, avg=61, median=47 (seconds) .
asciilifeform: ( same params, i.e. pronounced prime if passes m-r with 32 rng-shat witnesses )
BingoBoingo: In still other news, US sheep herd hits an all time low.
asciilifeform: ( for n00bz -- prime gen parallelizes, obv., over as many cpu as you have. but ffa per se does not use threads, tho it can be run inside threads with no added headache )
asciilifeform: 4**(-32) ~= 5.4210e-20 , probability of fatal misfire for 32 rounds of m-r
asciilifeform: i.e. if you run somehow 1 per sec, will eat a coupla dozen moon-size asteroids prior to getting misfire..
mircea_popescu: provided, of course, the witnesses aren't correlated.
asciilifeform: obv
asciilifeform: or rad event in yer irons, also fairly high prob regardless of how you baked rng
asciilifeform: ( high in comparison with the naked 4**-x that is )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: interestingly, iirc even to bake 32 liars (having control of the witnesses, presupposes) that 1) all diff 2) work for some n -- is open problem atm
mircea_popescu: afaik there was constructive approach
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if you recall where, plz link
mircea_popescu: but also afaik, it doesn't work with "and all same size"
asciilifeform: nah i'd be satisfied with 'here's n, and here's 32 unequal m-r liars for n'
asciilifeform: i recall digging for this, and instead finding conjecture that no canhaz
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, there's eg ~20mn carmichael numbers under 10^20
asciilifeform: carmichaels dun have much to do with m-r
asciilifeform: ( it's fermat that chokes on'em )
mircea_popescu: yes ; but by analogy i expect it's possible you have some m-r liars up to the large (4096 bit is a large number) numbers we're dealing wqith
asciilifeform: in m-r, for prime p, 3/4 of the integers are troof-tellers for p
asciilifeform: *at least 3/4
asciilifeform: usually much moar
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2019/gambit/ << Trilema -- Gambit
mircea_popescu: the problem's converse : construct k integers that are false witnesses for the primality of the pq product.
asciilifeform: ( troof-teller i.e. correctly triggers m-r's 'this is composite' litmus )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: takes same time as to find m-r false witness for anyffing else
asciilifeform: i.e. throw p*q in m-r , with random witness, and see if correctly outputs 'composite'
asciilifeform: rinse, repeat
asciilifeform: q is whether there is a better algo
mircea_popescu: ima have to dig this up, pretty sure i read up on this (very limited) mewthod of constructing m-r false witnesses for a two-primes product.
asciilifeform: cuz this one is 'geological'
mircea_popescu: the principal problem with it was that they ended up large.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that'd entirely fit the bill, if you find it
asciilifeform: esp. if it runs in human time
asciilifeform: then can say 'enemy who fed you a magic p, and then 32 selected witnesses, can lead you off cliff'
mircea_popescu: there is ~some~ overlap between carmichael and m-r (eg 1729 is a pretty reliable flase witness).
asciilifeform: quite interested in conceptual diddles on m-r in light of phuctor
mircea_popescu: in fact m-r is a sorta upgraded fermat
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the operative diff is, 3/4 is lower bound. i.e. there aint a composite where 3/4 of the integers aint proper witness.
mircea_popescu: i just me4ant formally, p ^ n-1 = 1 vs p ^ (n-1)/2 = +-1
asciilifeform: somehow enemy gotta feed you errything other than those 3/4..
mircea_popescu: finding the nontrivial square roots of 1 modulo n is a hard problem ; but constructing some is not. anyway, not right now in the best form to go through archives but will see to this.
asciilifeform: ty mircea_popescu , plox to post if/when find
mircea_popescu: you're in luck!
mircea_popescu: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0747717185710425
asciilifeform: neato ( tho could've sworn nao that we had it in log... )
mircea_popescu: dood actually lists a 400 digit number to which ~300 items are strong liars
mircea_popescu: (bases of a)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, it wouldn't surprise me if we did, no.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: dun suppose you have the text lying around?
mircea_popescu: packed somewhere im sure, but im not gonna proceed extracting rightnao.
asciilifeform: aite, if anyone finds, plz post
asciilifeform: iirc i saw this item at some pt, and fella really did bake a p that 'passes m-r' for buncha ~small~ bases
asciilifeform: ( as used in kochisms )
asciilifeform: what'd be interesting is to find algo that bakes a large composite n , and shits forth arbitrary # of 'plausible-looking' large but false witnesses
asciilifeform: ( even moar interesting, would be to find litmus for some variant of this being in use, then could point it at phuctor collection & pull trigger )
mircea_popescu: in more practical terms : about 1/4 of products of strong liars are also strong liars, which is another constructive direction.
mircea_popescu: ie, you don';t have to try "all", but do try all mutual products of all known carmichael numbers.
asciilifeform: iirc it is how the linked item worked
asciilifeform: or something quite like
asciilifeform: frustrated, could've sworn he saw it with own eyes at some pt
feedbot: http://bingology.net/2019/03/27/peso-watch-march-2019/ << Bingology - BingoBoingo's Blog -- Peso Watch March 2019
mircea_popescu: the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-27#1905222 item is relevant, because if you were to enumerate the pairs you'd be looking at 20mn!/2!(20mn-2)!, which is truly a staggering nuymber, of possible liars of a size up to 10^40
a111: Logged on 2019-03-27 23:22 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, there's eg ~20mn carmichael numbers under 10^20
mircea_popescu: but even taking a small selection among these to produce a sieve, and then churning a bunch of composites through it, might produce some lulz.
asciilifeform: all of this , as i understand, only is interesting if enemy knows (or can set) which will be your witnesses. cuz by basic m-r , 3/4 of possible inputs for witness will still give correct diagnosis of compositude
mircea_popescu: all of this is only interesting if enemy can set your witnesses, correct.
mircea_popescu: i thought that's what we were looking at.
asciilifeform: right
asciilifeform: in koch for instance.
asciilifeform: will be lulzy if we end up finding that koch's 'whitener' actually optimizes for sad N
mircea_popescu: another piece of the puzzle is that while small numbers are ~perfect~ witnesses for up to a certain value, they become terrible witnesses thereupon, which is why small witnesses are useless in crypto
mircea_popescu: (and also why the usual crowd of http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-02#1883944 systematically push them)
a111: Logged on 2019-01-02 18:57 mircea_popescu: what's hilarious is the ever-present http://trilema.com/2017/global-warming-on-triton/#selection-154.0-157.103 whereby they'll imaginarily seat themselves in my seat and start spewing http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-04#1809349 slash assorted nonsense about "homebrew crypto" lalala.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: recall, the derpcrypto folx use not only small, but ~fixed~ witnesses, lol
asciilifeform: ahahaha the 'ohnoez , homebrew crypto' people
asciilifeform: is almost surprised none of'em left comment in ffa series, 'bbbut didntcha read in schneier, you oughtnt homebrew crypto!11'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, the problem with that 3/4 figure is that it's ~an average~ (obtained by a very trivial calculation). there's no known way to evaluate the statistical divergence over a finite set.
mircea_popescu: moreover, it's likely that a set of 100% consecutive liars of arbitrary length can be found.
asciilifeform: mno, ~at least~ 3/4 of numberline provably nails any given composite.
mircea_popescu: yes of numberline. definitely. but not of "x to y" interval for close x, y.
asciilifeform: correct, it dun tell you where they are.
mircea_popescu: right. and it dun tell you ~to any degree~.
asciilifeform: aha!
mircea_popescu: not at all.
asciilifeform: which is why interesting q
asciilifeform: very little is known re how distributed.
mircea_popescu: right.
mircea_popescu: in any case, to get back to the previous line : afaik all m-r liars are also carmichael numbers.
mircea_popescu: small sets of small liars are trivially produced, eg 1 , 8 , 18 , 47 , 57 , 64 are liars for 5 * 13.
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2978#selection-3117.1-3141.67 << for 3215031751 : 2, 3, 5, 7 false witnesses in m-r , but none of'em are carmichael (of which smallest is 561)
mircea_popescu: hm.
mircea_popescu: yeah ; more properly : there is a class of numbers that are both carmichael numbers and strong liars.
asciilifeform: recall, carmichael # is where x^(n-1) = 1 mod n for all x that are relatively prime to n
mircea_popescu: yes.
asciilifeform: i.e. x^n = x mod n , ditto
asciilifeform: aha
mircea_popescu: anyway, i guess what i'm tryingto say is that if i were looking to dig among the liar set i'd be mostly trying to guide it by the charmicael set.
mircea_popescu: but i don't have all that great a "whu"
mircea_popescu: why*
asciilifeform: it's what i distinctly recall from that piece, will revisit when i dredge up a copy
asciilifeform: incidentally, and for thread-completeness, gotta add, for certain patterns of failed m-r sequence , you end up with output that gets you a factor. this item is actually on the phuctor conveyor, when i get a free hand to crank it again
asciilifeform: ( for 'honest' prime gen, where there's actually 2 primes of the traditional bitness, this ~never happens. but for others.. )
trinque: hey folks, just a heads-up that castle trinque is running on batteries atm due to a blown transformer. wallet will be around while batteries last, after which we'll be awaiting the mains.
mircea_popescu: is contemplating having a generating cage made.
mircea_popescu: wouldn't that be hot af ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: generating cage ? i.e. with hupet in large wheel turning gen ?
mircea_popescu: yup.
trinque: this is what I pictured, lol
trinque: awesome
mircea_popescu: well, ideally paired cages, for balance. it is pretty heavy machinery...
asciilifeform: wainot, if they already turn wheels at gym..
mircea_popescu: im totally gonna look into this. what's the big deal, a generator and some welding.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: funnily enuff, even cheapo current gen. of gym stationary bikes, actually include gens, they simply dump the current in resistor
asciilifeform: imho mega-waste, oughta come with plug
mircea_popescu: aha!
asciilifeform: so conceivably you dun need a gigantic hamster wheel, could rewire ordinary bike thing
mircea_popescu: but gigantgic hamster wheel in dank cellar quite the pic.
asciilifeform: a healthy biped can put out 100+ watt , sustained, on bike
asciilifeform: but yes
mircea_popescu: i expect more like 3-4-500 in wheel, use bodyweight
asciilifeform: https://archive.is/SvAG5 << wehrmacht , 'tm5a1'
asciilifeform: brits also had, but i dun recall what was called
feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/03/rescued-migrants-hijack-commercial-vessel-at-sea/ << Qntra -- Rescued Migrants Hijack Commercial Vessel At Sea
asciilifeform: https://archive.is/mTfOP << better pic.
asciilifeform: trinque: i thought you had diesel
mircea_popescu: trinque, as it happens i was gonna do a buncha small payments, but deedb ot not answering to !!withdraw ?
asciilifeform: does not have diesel, thought about it but ~0 point, given that upstream fiber people seem to only have ~2hr of battery, so went 'i'ma also 2h..'
mircea_popescu: nothing wrong with keeping a spare sat or radio connection. or both i guess
asciilifeform: i have the latter, but it's kept in cold reserve, rather than auto
asciilifeform: dun like to have moar microwave background than strictly must
mircea_popescu: trinque, http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/xMxQL/?raw=true
asciilifeform: this is 1 of the wins of rk, thing can live on 3W
asciilifeform: i.e. what actual hamster could turn out in his wheel..
mircea_popescu: then again who wants to fuck hamsters.
asciilifeform: point
mircea_popescu: i don't think it's dead though, answers to eg !!key. mayhap something i'm fucking up syntax-wise.
mircea_popescu: got knows wouldn't be first time.
asciilifeform: pictures castle mircea_popescustein with uboat-style battery room, what with the little cart that one rides lying on back to test electrolyte etc
asciilifeform: funnily enuff, sov nuke vessels still had'em. backup to diesels which in turn backup to the 2 reactors
asciilifeform: was thought, if you have 160 hands on the ship, may as well also battery
mircea_popescu: the thing with subs is that failure means failure, there's no "oh, no brakes, stopped car in ditch".
mircea_popescu: whole thing goes three miles underwater.
asciilifeform: ( seems extravagant, until you remember that you can't submerge on diesels )
mircea_popescu: of course you can, airtanks.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 500 m. for the typical
mircea_popescu: even soviets had these
asciilifeform: airtank only good for vertical. battery if you care to also move..
mircea_popescu: no, i mean, air tank to run diesel engine off of.
mircea_popescu: not very far, but >0
asciilifeform: to ~start~ diesel
mircea_popescu: hm
asciilifeform: it was the germans who tried to actually ~run~ ship on compressed air. in ww1. did not ( surprise? ) go far.
mircea_popescu: ~everyone does this now ; im pretty sure soviets also did.
asciilifeform: for torpedo.
asciilifeform: it dun scale.
mircea_popescu: hm
asciilifeform: ( why not, will leave as exercise )
mircea_popescu: in truth, never actually looked into this too closely.
asciilifeform: compressed gas aint so great as energy store, you lose just about errything you put in , to pv = nRT
asciilifeform: there was a sovok train engine with no boiler . for last-mile into factory with combustibles. filled with steam, off-site, went for ~40min after.
asciilifeform: afaik that was the last word on the tech.
asciilifeform: '50s.
asciilifeform: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLfa43_1WH8 << oblig german diesel air start .
mircea_popescu: not as energy store ; as oxygenation tank.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ~that~ one was jp
asciilifeform: and worked
asciilifeform: afaik modern folx still tryin' to resurrect tech
mircea_popescu: im pretty sure it's common now.
asciilifeform: if it is, i missed
mircea_popescu: the engines won't go very far on it (in no small part because it';s almost never taken to ~water density, ie, 800 or so atmospheres) ; but there's still a lot of air that can be fit in some not-so-huge tanks.
asciilifeform: aficionado mostly of sovok fleet , not up to date on newfangled
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: iirc they used peroxide as oxidizer, rather than compressed o2
mircea_popescu: afaik it's just compressed air, taken when up.
asciilifeform: rright but generally you would not want a bottle of 800atm on a boat that might have to live with depth charges nearby etc
asciilifeform: bad enuff that you gotta have the 400atm ballast cistern
mircea_popescu: afaik it's internally organized much like the "car battery" : a buncha half-liter cells inside a lined tank
asciilifeform: possib that this was done in recent yrs, i missed.
mircea_popescu: all part of work to make silent subs ; even the exhaust gets bottled.
asciilifeform: in '90s americans built little sub with li-ion (french) battery , iirc
asciilifeform: coupla hrs of sail , from ~300kg crate
asciilifeform: nfi what became of this
asciilifeform: ( prolly 'tailhooked' )
asciilifeform: the only source iirc for this item was an old ru report .
asciilifeform: possibly -- vapourware.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in ancient trilemas, http://trilema.com/2012/o-fata-pe-gustul-meu/
mircea_popescu: "say mp, who was your favourite american ?" "dora dufran"
trinque: mircea_popescu: away from keys atm (sought power) but oughta work now. lmk if not
mircea_popescu: now it answers ty
trinque: cool, np

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