jurov: !!v B391E386C09327CA31AB9ECB3124A3A901EE12C7287426E54452EBBEB661EE65
deedbot: jurov paid BingoBoingo invoice 9
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 23:57 mircea_popescu: even though economy had ~died, the 70s east cultural clock still synchronized a lot closer to reality than the 70s west cultural clock.
diana_coman: but anyway, to wind up the thread, the idea seems to be that "yes, it inevitably sucked and moreover it failed on both directions
http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902282 but nevertheless it was the best thing available at the time; and ftr having studied at polytechnica university may perhaps (no idea) be better than mit at that time (not now, then, hence no idea) but it wasn't much study, no.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 23:59 mircea_popescu: as it happens, in warsaw pact function #1 failed ~mid 70s, and function #2 failed
~mid 80s.
diana_coman: it's still back to the measuring by the bottom part as far as I can see.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 13:19 asciilifeform: spyked: seems like the joke is on the folx who shot the shoemaker , who ~maybe~-sent police if he thought you had particular kind of bits on paper , and then spread legs for nato reich, who send police if they think you have ~another~ kind of bits, on yer hdd..
spyked: re the above, nato reich did not advertise that part in their brochures. I suppose the ones who previously waited "sa vina americanii" were very happy in 1990 because "can nao eat hot dog and hamburgers" (mcd wasn't even the first of its kind in ro)
diana_coman: further digesting the conclusion such as it is, it seems to me that the issue might be that it kept pretending it was working way beyond the point were it had clearly and obviously failed; and given the timings, this does quite rest entirely with ceausescu as far as I can tell - he couldn't let fail faster what had failed already, hence
http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902038
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 21:22 diana_coman: I meant it lost its options really; and having an uppity peasant "rule" is not going to change that, only make it likely worse and longer
diana_coman: spyked, those who waited sa vina americanii were tired of waiting and died, in many cases rather precisely and explicitly so "tired of all this shit, had enough."
diana_coman: re 1990 I recall euphoria followed by a very cool shower on seeing same old faces (fsn) ; and then the 90s were the time of a big wave of running for canada iirc
diana_coman: presumably there again, there was one chance and it was rejected because ratiu hadn't eaten salam cu soia; but that's what if, no idea if again iliescu was presumably "the best available"
spyked: from discussions with ppl who were in their 20s-30s at the time, my understanding is that most folks had no idea what to expect from "new regime". they were being fed with "transition phase" and other similar buzzwords
diana_coman: eh, the older ones saw it clearly though because they had more experience with "schimbarea domnilor bucuria nebunilor"
diana_coman: sure, folks had no idea but that's the given at any time really
diana_coman: and at any rate, the new regime was the old regime since precisely known people
diana_coman: in this sense ceausescu was made the scapegoat, yes; i.e. "shooting him sorted out all the troubles, nao everything will be great"
spyked: diana_coman, I suspect this was mostly a case of "revision is well-received, but don't change anything"; which is why iliescu/fsn had so much support and average derp saw the taranisti as "way too mean" (no idea precisely what "mean" means, that's what I've been told)
spyked: specifically re "the wrong kind of bits on your hdd", I'm sure e.g. microshit had no problem with it, piracy is principally how windows got spread in eastern europe
mircea_popescu: so in re
http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-10#1901233 : we finally got to the bottom of the matter, after no little amount of reading and headscratching (esp on my part). the problem isn't one of calling convention (as i had erroneously imagined originally, mostly on the basis of "keccak doesn't take / wants" verbiage).
a111: Logged on 2019-03-10 19:56 phf:
http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-10#1901200 << that is not at all the problem. i can read the file just fine, but as i do i feed chunks of it to keccak. keccak doesn't take char buffers, it wants "bitstream" i.e. arrays of bits, which means whatever char
mircea_popescu: the problem is this : as keccak is ineptly specced (by Bertoni & all), it uses amixedly both lsb and msb conventions, meaning that a bitstream of uneven octetness like "10110" can ~in principle~ end up padded into either the harmless "00010110" or the potentially harmful "10110000".
mircea_popescu: making sure this latter case never happens requires a little bit of needlework. the original implementations tried to keep close to the original spec, for basically naive and unexamined
http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-02#1883944 reasons. as it turns out, this was the wrong cut.
mircea_popescu: as it's unclear from the logs whether phf actually has done this and not published it yet or not done it at all, diana_coman will release a third keccak, that should resolve both the above problem and the "everything is 8x because NIST idiots" thing blowing up vdiff's stack, hopefully later this week.
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-14#1902430 << well, "weird". they're both ideal social systems, they both have the same problems. they have it in different degrees, or rather, differently distributed. warsaw pact socialism was an ideal system closest to realism at the top and most idealized at the bottom. roosveltian socialism is an ideal system closest to realism at the bottom, and most idealized at the top. as i'm at the top
mircea_popescu: , i very much prefer the former ; asciilifeform is expressing very similar preference for very similar reasons.
mircea_popescu: the proofs for this are many and plurious, but consider the simple fact that there's no censorship or repression of ideas in roosevelt's socialism.
mircea_popescu: why not ? ~obviously~ because thinking people ~can not even form useful ideas~ there. much like there's no jaywalking fines for the qadriplegic, and no blinding lights for they already blind.
mircea_popescu: i much prefer the tyrant who's afraid of thinking people to the tyrant who isn't, for the exactly obvious fucking reason.
diana_coman: thing is the "afraid of thinking people" directly translates into "thinking people get killed for *being thinking people*" and if you and asciilifeform say that that's swell and preferable to the alternative then ok; the way I see it, it's a recipe for disaster; which gets round back precisely to the "talking to the pigs" since there isn't anyone left
diana_coman: ftr I can easily get behind the observation that the difference of opinion here might simply stem from the fact that I wasn't at a the top in communism - no, I wasn't; and I wouldn't have made it to any top either precisely because of too much thinking.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-10 17:52 asciilifeform: so it will have to have the mmap routine.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, eh, cheaper in the sense that in communism you don't even have what to drink or what; because otherwise plenty of that in there too
diana_coman: at any rate, I'm not saying that I find rooseveltian communism any better really, no
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 09:58 spyked: specifically re "the wrong kind of bits on your hdd", I'm sure e.g. microshit had no problem with it, piracy is principally how windows got spread in eastern europe
mircea_popescu: diana_coman well, it IS preferable to the alternative. certainly not swell, no, but who the hell can carry a conversation on communism in terms of swellness.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i can live with telling people "raise your stack limit for your file is large" ; i have a lot more trouble sleeping at night if i tell people "raise your stack limit for some idiots made a broken spec we did not fix."
mircea_popescu: diana_coman hey, i was fortunate! two generations working hard at the "think just enough --- NOT MORE!!!" so as to make it into "red bourgeoisie" (to use the polish term), which yeah i'd have totally fucked up when it came to be my turn except the regime fell before me like one of those magic cases of lion dieing of apoplexy just as five year old boy lifts his wooden sword at it. so now i can be distasted at their impossible
mircea_popescu: mental contortions, "what sort of people are these!!!" and so on.
mircea_popescu: it's a complex problem, though. the naive : "the difference between idiots and thinkers is that thinkers may opt to idiocy, but idiots may not opt to thinking", generally offered in disputes around "copyright" and other packaging of the grander theme of "ownership of ideal objects", nevertheless runs into the problem that thinkers DO NOT LIKE opting for idiocy.
mircea_popescu: (though adlai is commonly used here as the poster child for a perhaps spreading novel disease, where they manage to apparently convince themselves they do like, somehow.)
mircea_popescu: amusingly enough, this thing runs right into the institution of the harem (guess what alfie -- institution that DIDNT have all individuals leave!) because master's opting for idiocy is ~required~ on occasion. you can very much fail through being too reliably thinking, counterintuitively enough. or perhaps
not so counterintuitively.
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-14#1902434 << the fundamental problem with measuring anything is that either you pick good measurements (in which case -- you want good samples, in which case -- bottom always wins) or else you pick good results (in which case, discussion can continue endlessly as to ~what it is they mean~. there's no clear meaning to results, howsoever good they may be, absent a good measurement).
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 07:40 diana_coman: it's still back to the measuring by the bottom part as far as I can see.
mircea_popescu: which pretty much summarizes 50 years' worth of "scholarship" on the topic of comparative theory of socialism, carried both in warsaw and roosevelt lands like it was going out of style.
mircea_popescu: correctly, too -- meanwhile it actually went out of style.
mircea_popescu: but, to add the one important bit : discussing communism is imo a red herring, and ESPECIALLY so if part of the other-socialism's sepia ink, "oh, how bad warsaw pact socialism was
little girl, aren't you glad you live in best possible socialism that's not like that at all [in any parts you're li
mircea_popescu: able to notice, or once noticed be able to communicate]"
mircea_popescu: might as well discuss the ill effects of coconut flavoured frozen yogurt upon one's metabolism, and how much weight we're losing by eating naught but vanilla flavoured frozen yogurt (made at the same plant by the same company out of exactly the same ingredients -- all the way to the flavouring, it's still processed wood shavings.)
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-14#1902438 << just like the other idiots. consider : if usg dissolved itself in 2001 instead of pretending to a "war" of imagination, people would have ~regretted~ it. but as it stubbornly carried on for another 20 years, it's just as heavily hated at the top as conceivable, and in another decade they'll be shot in the street retributively, for having been part of it at all.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 09:32 diana_coman: further digesting the conclusion such as it is, it seems to me that the issue might be that it kept pretending it was working way beyond the point were it had clearly and obviously failed; and given the timings, this does quite rest entirely with ceausescu as far as I can tell - he couldn't let fail faster what had failed already, hence
http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902038
mircea_popescu: much like had ro communism responded to czech invasion by free elections, ceausescu would be the #1 romanian saint, with more churches dedicated than mary & joseph combined. and much like had the byzantines and much like etcetera.
mircea_popescu: much like every single hostile divorce, too. people just don't know when to quit, is the overwhelming property of people.
mircea_popescu: what is so wrong with saying "these people hate us, because we suck, how about we try something else instead of sucking even harder ???"
diana_coman: I suspect it's simply because most people don't actually have a "something else" ; hence shooting is at the end correct too since it's the only real quite.
mircea_popescu: but yes, ceausescu coming up on live tv and explaining that "look, you dweebs : we tried to imperialism so and so, this is what we did and why we did it, this is what happened, now we're fucked. what do you wanna do now ? figure it the fuck out." would have worked well.
mircea_popescu: he ~even had the right idea~, held fuycking referendum!
mircea_popescu: but see how hard it is to get the words right ? he held referendum over "paying debt", and "everyone voted. twice."
mircea_popescu: it was there though, both the conscience of the problem and the awarness of the right solution. just didn't manage to burble clean all the way through.
mircea_popescu: part and parcel of the problem is that ~the very basis and fundament~ of a "
representative system" is that THERE IS NO ONE THERE TO TALK TO. all the fucktarded jwzs long opted out, WHO you gonna explain what to and HOW ? in what terms ? in what words ?
mircea_popescu: how do you break through the howl of idiocy ? i scream at the girls, and put them on their knees and whip them, and it works, kinda.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman quite. "viermi neadormiti", da' si nevorbitori.
diana_coman: well, if afraid of thinking people and then people got to think "just enough" then nowhere to turn when needing to talk to someone, inevitably
mircea_popescu: poor woman, bereft of letters. i always read it in THOSE terms, "if you can't think and can't use language, AT LEAST FUCKING SLEEP!!!"
a111: Logged on 2014-08-01 03:17 mircea_popescu: then various twerps derp about "upholding contracts" in mises.org, and when i call them too smart by half they nervously BUT ANONYMOUSLY address it
a111: Logged on 2018-10-18 18:57 mircea_popescu: which i stand behind, ftr ; and it is also what informs the "if they had any sense -- they'd be here" stance. the fact that rando can't cut through fetlife to find the meat / can't cut through internet to find trilema / can't cut through femstate to find bitcoin / can't cut through pantsuitism to find republic etc specifically means that rando is dull, ie, not smart.
mircea_popescu: in ceausescu's own world, "too dumb to cut through imperialist-bourgeois nonsense to find marx & engels ---> dull"
mircea_popescu: what can you do ? in any possible systematic representation of the world you will have some criteria for "broken representations". this isn't avoidable, and "so just don't systematically, then" is no kind of answer.
mircea_popescu: yes, obviously it pays to be the top node, ie, to integrate everyone else's systems. hence all the "empire loses because we integrate it, can't even represent us" etc. nevertheless... this is fine and dandy until it isn't. and yes it'd be great if one had the fucking sense to NOTICE, but notice how eg cat-v.org morons FAILED to notice it's time to quit derping and start worshipping.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile every organized system, no matter how organized as long as it provides for the economic & cultural #1 and #2 functions discussed, is going to be afraid of marauding idiocy. cuz that's what "barbarian" means, even.
mircea_popescu: i couldn't argue well that it ~wasn't~ the same attempt.
mircea_popescu: anyway, kinda why the insistence on "republic is political -- you can't just do tech thing" etc. and why dual court-and-manor function of lord. and so on.
mircea_popescu: IF you dare separate these two, just as soon as something happens you're up sheet crick.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 14:14 mircea_popescu: the proofs for this are many and plurious, but consider the simple fact that there's no censorship or repression of ideas in roosevelt's socialism.
mircea_popescu shall have to go to town, on hour+ delayed trip, in preference of telling driver to turn off engine already. so catch you all later as bit!
a111: Logged on 2014-06-15 02:28 asciilifeform: 'the Western blok... preferred to view the Eastern European nations as victims of Soviet aggression, ignoring the simple and manly fact (that would have been instantly understood by a Roman) that Soviet legions, without anyone's help, took possession of Eastern Europe via force of arms, answering aggression with aggression. And the Roman would an absurdity - he could not comprehend, in the name of what so-called
a111: Logged on 2014-03-21 17:31 asciilifeform: 'Frightened of its own cannibalism during the First, and, moreover, the Second world wars. 'civilized' mankind dashed from the 'hard' to the 'soft' mode of violence. (The deciding factors: 1. the restraining influence of atomic weapons and 2. the advent of new technologies of production, which made possible an overfeeding of the masses.) If the essence of 'hard' violence consists in the physical suppression of
a111: Logged on 2014-03-21 17:44 asciilifeform: a videoclip of a fairy tale coming true... ...they [americans] also wish to drive around in jeeps, accompanied by squadrons of hotties in berets with kalashnikovs - but are impotent from birth. Envy, taken with an understanding of one's own powerless... easily transforms into hatred. The leaders of the sanitarium are easier for the 'patient' to understand, closer. He sees their permissible pecadillos, and is pl
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 15:09 mircea_popescu: amusingly enough, this thing runs right into the institution of the harem (guess what alfie -- institution that DIDNT have all individuals leave!) because master's opting for idiocy is ~required~ on occasion. you can very much fail through being too reliably thinking, counterintuitively enough. or perhaps
not so counterintuitively.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 09:31 spyked: re the above, nato reich did not advertise that part in their brochures. I suppose the ones who previously waited "sa vina americanii" were very happy in 1990 because "can nao eat hot dog and hamburgers" (mcd wasn't even the first of its kind in ro)
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 20:46 asciilifeform: peasants quite logically dun want to industrialize, it is elementarily misery in immediate term
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 15:30 mircea_popescu: what's he gonna do, kneel a country ?
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 15:22 mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-14#1902438 << just like the other idiots. consider : if usg dissolved itself in 2001 instead of pretending to a "war" of imagination, people would have ~regretted~ it. but as it stubbornly carried on for another 20 years, it's just as heavily hated at the top as conceivable, and in another decade they'll be shot in the street retributively, for having been part of it at all.
mircea_popescu: 1918s us hadnt yet failed. in fact, hadn't yet even proven itself.
mircea_popescu: the hole people continue to give mp-wp a bad name i see.
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-14#1902442 << it does not seem to me ion ratiu & co (coposu, a buncha other fossils) had any fucking clue as to anything whatsoever. in a cool evaluation, actually worse than the "descurcati". ironically enough, the objection as voiced is A LOT more substantial than the same group of dorks aforementioned, pompously pretending themselves "the intellectual elite" and whatnot, wanted to give credit
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 09:36 diana_coman: presumably there again, there was one chance and it was rejected because ratiu hadn't eaten salam cu soia; but that's what if, no idea if again iliescu was presumably "the best available"
mircea_popescu: ie, there's more substance in the "n-ati mincat salam cu soia" rejection than in the "oh, i wear a bowtie and we're camping in piata universitatii" offer.
mircea_popescu: this is amply illustrated in the recent derpage re m i quintus. because ~he died very old~ everyone was falling over themselves to praise. but the dood was a more shameful stain on pnl than eg viorel catarama.
mircea_popescu: if he lives to be 90, crin antonescu will have recreated quintus almost identically.
mod6: I'm going to be rebuilding the new irc server tonight to include NICKLENs of 24 chars (fleabag has a max of 16, trinque also checked, an no current regiesterd nick in deedbot is >24), TOPICLEN of 390 chars (for uberlong topics/urls etc), and USERREGLENs of also 24.
mod6: Going to also be adding in nickserv/chanserv, some other services. Will announce when it's back up for testing. Cheers.
mircea_popescu: but whatever, i guess cotidianul was ok, up until about 2000 or so.
mircea_popescu: anyway -- iliescu wasn't even particularly good, according to anyone involved. he was however the only one who wasn't shockingly fucked in the head. but i mean, SHOCKINGLY.
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-14#1902443 << actually, it was quite fucking obvious : 1. the country has a large industrial base ; 2. that is only useful to turn a dollar's worth of energy into about 20 cents worth of vandable product ; 3. while at the time supporting a population that was 4. shockingly unskilled labour.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 09:37 spyked: from discussions with ppl who were in their 20s-30s at the time, my understanding is that most folks had no idea what to expect from "new regime". they were being fed with "transition phase" and other similar buzzwords
mircea_popescu: the supporting in 3 was not merely food -- all these idle useless fucktarded dorks expected to eg heat tghemselves in winter for free with the abundant waste heat resulting from 2. and to steal off the production like. and to generally not work and etc. with the possible exception of bulgaria, romania had the worst workforce of anywhere in europe, at moment 1990.
mircea_popescu: are sunteti din pozitia de expati prin multinationale.] actuallty fixed romania's pre-eminent problem in the 90s, one that ceausescu failed to even dare address -- witness how there's no discussion of "you fucks are the worst miners that ever went down a shaft" in response to the "jos cu burghezia rosie" bullshit he had to confront in valea jiului cca 77.
mircea_popescu: ie, the writer dorks aren't the ~only ones~ he was... abstainedly uncritical with. cowardly enough, he also did the same when his skin was in it.
mircea_popescu: so no "tranzitie" bullshit whatsoever : we're gonna have to cut all the spurious "industry" in name only, and cut all the fucktards who depend of it. and IT WAS DONE. and it was done as hard and fast as it ~could~ be done, witness the whole "miners invading capital" lulz during radu vasile.
mircea_popescu: so yes romania kinda lost its nuclear technology plants ; but romania also now has fine mechanics that actually works, and actually makes money, and unlike bulgaria or fucking austria, let alone jokes like costa rica or argentina, has a very well working, agile and effectual industrial base. narrower than it could have been in a very idealised sense, but way the fuck wider than it'd have been had eg the "agricultural plans" o
mircea_popescu: there's exactly nothing wrong with "making breaks for bmw". all bmw consists of is producers of parts, an assembly plant, and a sticker factory. what you ~want~ in that cake is to be one of the parts producers. it is folly to imagine "owning intellectual property" in "the brand" has any fucking value. it is idiocy to try like the argentines, to assemble chinese kits and call it "an industry". the only good position is the pos
mircea_popescu: ition ro went for, and mostly got. in the large land grab post us collapse, romania got what pieces it could grab, and while it didn't grab as much as say germany, or poland, it grabbed WAY the fuck more than even france, let the ufck alone jokes like spain. and it did better in this land rush than it did in the 60s/70s oil rush we discussed yest.
mircea_popescu: and it mostly did better because isarescu is not ceausescu, at that. ie, came from a wineyard fambly.
mircea_popescu: by which i mean, that negotiating with the miners was the absolute worst fucking decision possible. the policy is either correct, in which case it gets defended, or incorrect, in which case it gets corrected. there can't possibly be this "oh, we should x but let's y instead", factual-abdication-without-formal-abdication. in which sense diana_coman has a solid point, "dood should have had his referendum ipso facto in 77, not b
mircea_popescu: s about for another idle decade, waiting for the pile to rot"
mircea_popescu: now, admittedly
the average 20yo living in 1990 had no fucking clue of any of the foregoing : not merely because the average 20yo has no fucking clue anywhere and anytime, ustarded 20yos actually go into debt to go to "college" today, even! but also because other than the romanian citizens i personally know, NO FUCKING BODY had ANY FUCKING CLUE about ANYTHING. AT
mircea_popescu: and incidentally, this continues -- there's "romanian bdsm" dorks today, as fucking if, amusingly omitting to mention that there's exactly one romanian bdsm-er ; and
hilarious cvasi-republican posturing and all the rest of it. that they're drowning in hollow halo of buzzwords which nevertheless fails to mask at all the complete sadness underneath is not like the fucking martians' f
a111: Logged on 2019-03-01 23:04 mircea_popescu: iptomonede, opinii" but even manages to write
a piece on the celebrated
http://trilema.com/2011/romania-cea-de-basm-partea-i/ item (four years later) without somehow managing to at all EVEN MENTION let alone fucking address the whole reason public funds were even misdirected towards printing that (meanwhile melted down) piece of crap.
mircea_popescu: ault. this is what the mass-romanian is and does, nobody is needed to "do it to him", much like nobody's needed to drag shit into lelea saveta's cunt. she does it, by herself, every time she wipes.
mircea_popescu: so yeah, while isarescu was trying to figure out which accreditives to sign in which order on which day, bnr of that winter being the largest cheque kiting entreprise in the entire world, a bunch of morons sitting on upturned beer cases "discussed politics". that nothing comprehensible came of the latter effort's the participants' fault.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 09:56 spyked: diana_coman, I suspect this was mostly a case of "revision is well-received, but don't change anything"; which is why iliescu/fsn had so much support and average derp saw the taranisti as "way too mean" (no idea precisely what "mean" means, that's what I've been told)
mircea_popescu: execute, as in, shot in the head. everyone, as in, 2-3mn people.
mircea_popescu: that, sadly, was unsupportable, correctness be damned. and if you ain't gonna do the right thing, iliescu's way the fuck better a schelling point than herpitty-derp&co.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 14:32 asciilifeform: ( i dunno if al schwartz drank, but may as well )
a111: Logged on 2019-03-12 16:36 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: eh folx are still waiting for the vid from the pentagon parking lot cams on '9/11'
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 23:20 mircea_popescu: so no "tranzitie" bullshit whatsoever : we're gonna have to cut all the spurious "industry" in name only, and cut all the fucktards who depend of it. and IT WAS DONE. and it was done as hard and fast as it ~could~ be done, witness the whole "miners invading capital" lulz during radu vasile.
mircea_popescu: what is now alro was one of the largest bauxite processing plants in europe. it cost ~over 8k ~~~1980~~~ usd to make a ton of aluminum there, and this at romania's EXTREMELY CHEAP hydro power rates.
mircea_popescu: you're thinking of the survivors. romania had ~9x more industry than you can summon to mind.
mircea_popescu: romania made train engines nobody would buy, and train cars that it could not use.
mircea_popescu: and the list goes on. romania made more phospo-nitrogen fertilizer than the us currently uses -- and it cost to make about twice what anyone'd pay.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what do you want me to say ? "if atomic winter came then 1980s ro industry would be good" ? these if dun work.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform cost to make in "just sell the natgas at bekescsaba, rather than send to azomures"
mircea_popescu: ie, cubic meter of raw gas worth 10, cubic meter of gas processed by azomures, worth 6.
mircea_popescu: as the workers weren't willing (nor even able) to PAY to play, their very expensive playground got cancelled.
mircea_popescu: yes, romanians thought "theyt're working". they were playing, 9 cases out of 10.
mircea_popescu: apparently it's worth something for no more than ~decade.
mircea_popescu: gotta start doing ~something~ besides saying "fuckyou" to parents, is the fundamental lesson of all adolescence.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> yes, romanians thought "theyt're working". they were playing, 9 cases out of 10. << One of the bigger cleaning product consortiums recently pulled production out of Uruguay. Easier to ship packaged retail ready from Mexico than water down and bottle in the labor environment here.
mircea_popescu: and the low skill, low productivity, worthless workforce ain't no fucking joke, either. you can say "ceausescu made wrong call, bet on oil, prices changed, he lost". the THING however is, ceausescu made bet in 66, plans called for plants to be done by 69, they were done by 74.
mircea_popescu: can just as well say "far seeing leader sabotaged by inept idiocy of workers"
mircea_popescu: had they actually been done on fucking time, they might've paid for themselves as the plans planned.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the world that is is the world that is. one must close all cycles in it, one can't simply go "oh, we'll keep going the insolvent '''right way'''."
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform we're not discussing that. this was peacetime economy, and the ~only product of its working was more per-capita laziness.
mircea_popescu: ye, the ONLY measurably increasing output of running the 1980s state economy was an increase of per-capita laziness, uselessness, and personal sense of entitlement of the "worker"
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, the point stands -- either close your cycles or die.
mircea_popescu: in fact, ro 1980s and us 2010s are so fucking similar it blows one's mind.
mircea_popescu: "what is the end product of Qx ?" "well... more of the workforce came late more often, missed more days, and feels should have larger salary and less work to do"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it doesn't. but it is also very easy to measure unclosed cycles : as they leak, the black market widens.
mircea_popescu: by the time they cut the pig, official rate was <20:1, black market was >100:1
mircea_popescu: yet you can't buy the dollar for 0.00005 btc anywhere. it's the same 0.00025 everywhere.
mircea_popescu: i don;'t mean the black market in goods. i mean the financial black market.
mircea_popescu: this is the true measure of unclosed cycles, you understand ? if your local currency is dropping, it is always dropping under the pressure of unclosed cycles
mircea_popescu: specifically meaning, resources you misallocated into making less-useful-than-possible end products.
mircea_popescu: that's precisely what it is, the measuring of the pressure of a miami nearby.
mircea_popescu: IF your autarky workls, THEREFORE there's no possibility of miami.
mircea_popescu: eg, our autarky works, nobody here sits wistfully dreaming of reading i dunno, #linux logs.
mircea_popescu: (and this is why closed borders is a very fucktarded policy -- you obviously WANT to let the idiots out. the only problem commies encountered was that if they opened the borders, the idiots'd have ~stayed~. which is already indicative of the breakage.)
mircea_popescu: so no, while in theory appealing, this theoretical autarky is not at all how things worked in the practice we're discussing. they had unclosed cycles galore, and there had to be a solution, AND they were in no measure to produce the solution.
mircea_popescu: there's a ~reason~ miami "pressures" latin ameritards, but period "london" did not in the slightest impress 1880s chinese.
mircea_popescu: china was net silver importer by the megatonne, for this exact reason, "what fucking miami, keks"
mircea_popescu: chicks wanted jeans, what. because miner garb is SO COOL OMG.
mircea_popescu: in retrospect, they weren't even lying, you should see them, 100% in the shit.
mircea_popescu: lest their cunts fly off or who knows what's going on in the noggin.
mircea_popescu: they weren't lying, they wanted the shit. what for, who knows, but there it is.
mircea_popescu: only thing i see was literally, they were afraid their cunts will fly off.
mircea_popescu: there's this "stealing nose" kiddy interaction trope from the period, adults pretending to steal kids' noses.
mircea_popescu: well yes, if i did any shaft mining, i'd buy some pairs of jeans.
mircea_popescu: i suspect it's some kind of psychological comfort somewhere. the same kind of femherd cowsies keep pestering my slaves about how "they gotta get jeans" as pester them about "omg your purse is open"
mircea_popescu: i literally believe they feel their cuntal purse is open or somesuch
mircea_popescu: (indistinctly, same applies to teh bois. in fact, they have it worse, lotta difficulty involved in securing a cunt you know is there but can't even see)
mircea_popescu: but no, i dun own any jeans. actually, hit up the local specialist in gentleman items (run by this very nice old lady, whom, when she dies, that is IT for dressing in costa rica). two suits, four extra pairs of pants, four shirts, a tie, a dozen socks and a pair of pijamas. all natural fiber, look fetching on me too. took like a fucking hour, and a brick of cash, but honestly i can't think of a way i could have spent the hour
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform they do this weird thing where they poke (literally, with finger) girl walking by me to get her attention then "omg your purse is open!!!". fucking weird as all hell.
mircea_popescu: somehow, however, this isn't "acoso callejero". dudes poking them to "hey, my dick's here", that never happens. confusion reigns.
mircea_popescu: nah, old networks survive here. egyptian cotton still exists, peruvian cotton still exists, there's a lot going on in the real world, ie, outside us concentration camp.
mircea_popescu: i have doubts it'll survive the passing of the current generation, the girlies in the shop are utterly confused at proceedings that seem only natural to her and me, but what can you do.
mircea_popescu: i hope she gets to die with it ; honestly other than me the only other customers are pretentious middle aged women buying 20 bux worth of presents with credit cards and the occasional ranchero getting a funeral suit or w/e.
mircea_popescu: that's not even it. whole bunch of tards, "oh, this bottle of champagne is great, $5000". as a factual matter no bottle of fizzy is genuinely worth that much. not anything you'd drink, anyway. what';s worse, if i pour that and random bottom shelf stuff they couldn't tell them apart. half the time can't tell bicarb fizz apart.
mircea_popescu: ie, there's a whole lotta aspirational buying and scant else besides.
mircea_popescu: he dun want a bottle to enjoy with his private, personal, wholly owned whores. he want a bottle to drink by himself and feel JUST LIKE nigger in x movie.
mircea_popescu: so, they end up buying plastic pret a porter sacks for whatever they wanna spend, and me an' my remnant friend can discuss sartreria.
mircea_popescu: anyway, all this is a great advantage to me (while the fuel lasts, i guess). i'm always the only one in the shop, everyone's always got all the time in the world, "we love to serve", the taylor doesn't even need to measure me because ~he remembers~.
mircea_popescu: because how wouldn't he even, not like he's beseiged by alternative measures.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i dunno i wanna wear a tophat. imo i'm not quite pearshaped enough for it as of yet.
mircea_popescu: i never saw anyone else there, besides as i said, 40yo middle class wife buying a present or else a ranchero dood (looking just like maduro, most of the time in canadian workshirt and jeans) buying "occasion"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if they are, they're well hidden. let alone i never ran into one -- wouldn't you expect they'd proposition one of my cunts at some point ?
mircea_popescu: i mean, not in a week, ok, not in a month, ok, YEARS ?!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i never heard of this. if it worked, i'd run it too. what, fuck my sister ?
mircea_popescu: human reproduction is precisely the ONE non closed-cycle. even "self-sufficient" rome invited the occasional sabine over for drinks
mircea_popescu: but judging from the sorry state of bars / strip clubs / nightlife in general, i do not believe so.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i still said hi to evident top ticket items in the street.
mircea_popescu: i don't dispute there's the occasional tico with some dough. but i'm pretty sure they're saving it up and hitting the disneyworlkd mcdonalds.
BingoBoingo: Well, how long did it take mircea_popescu to go from "Imma get citizenship here someday" to "Only coming back with spears" re: Argentina
BingoBoingo: So, how is orc supposed to investigate Miama when they have at most two weeks?
mircea_popescu: (and speaking of "luxury", romania's ex-minister woman that the hubbub was about recently, "Rumanas vivían entre lujos" lived in a pretty shitty apt in rohrmoser, which is a sort of... auburndale, i guess ?
BingoBoingo: I don't think you've seen the crap Latinos eat when left to own devices
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Nah, the places where they have choices
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform they're trained from childhood to atrophy own sense.
mircea_popescu: "believe what you hear, not what you see", right ? gotta fit in.
mircea_popescu: bout same. there's no substantial difference, catholics.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-15 02:14 asciilifeform: asciilifeform had entirely same 'eyes melt' experience when went to ameri-foodstore for 1st coupla times. today i spend good money at shop that loox exactly like what well-stocked one in sovok did in 1985. and not in 'dazzling variety' where cornsyrupinerrything.
mircea_popescu: you know, over here they stuff themselves with "chicharron".
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> somehow, have working taste buds, or seem to << The Peruana is much better at composing flavors into food than I am, but... her sense of smell just might be weaker than mine
BingoBoingo: Here it's torta frita. I'd go for some pork rinds. Like in old country
mircea_popescu: in any case, the one thing contemporary tard is trained for, is to NOT make decisions and NOT decide investments.
mircea_popescu: recall that scammy fuckwit graham's piece about how "talking is too much trouble" ?