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unpx[busybot]: For what I've seen it implies the existance of a group like structure on which is hard to compute discrete log... so it comes to mind either bignums diffie hellman like or elliptic curves...
unpx[busybot]: Massey–Omura Cryptosystem it was, but require bignums
unpx[busybot]: Back on problem 7 the only hint is here https://vk.com/crypto_nsu?w=wall-182952467_274
bitbot[asciilifeform]: (trilema) 2018-08-23 asciilifeform: if history's any guide, they're still in the 'first we'll try and starve the judenschwein, make'em unemployable, then they'll sell their gold to good aryans on their own power' stage of the algo
dulapbot: (asciilifeform) 2022-03-15 asciilifeform: ... from reich pov, plebes having savings is a bug, similarly to resistive losses in electric cable. 'pieces of yacht that got diverted'
asciilifeform: billymg: there's a scene in 1 of v. shalamov's 'kolyma stories' where a guard storms into the barrack in the evening and smashes the old tin cans the inmates have been using as little kettles to warm up bits of food
asciilifeform: 'worthless pieces of shit, clearly you are fed too much and work too little, if you have what to warm up in these'
asciilifeform: 'For now, the consumer is too strong for comfort. ... The household savings buffer “suggests to me we may have to keep at this for a while,” said Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City President Esther George in a webinar earlier this month' etc
asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-10-31#1014651 << i.e. number-theoretic constructs. which all req bignums, as said earlier.
bitbot[asciilifeform|busybot]: Logged on 2022-10-31 06:13:14 unpx[shinohai]: For what I've seen it implies the existance of a group like structure on which is hard to compute discrete log... so it comes to mind either bignums diffie hellman like or elliptic curves...
asciilifeform: there aint a block cipher where can e.g. decrypt(key1, encrypt(key2, encrypt(key1, payload))).
asciilifeform: ( ... and get == to encrypt(key2, payload) )
signpost[asciilifeform]: leaving aside the baggage of tor, would such a thing be useful for "onion" messages, say in the case where I lose contact with asciilifeform but hope that by peer propagation I can get a message to him? seems like if a hypothetical cipher like that could be had, the message could be unwrapped in more than one order.
signpost[asciilifeform]: question from my own ignorance of subj, of course.
asciilifeform: signpost: in fact we already have an onionesque 'addrcast' thing
signpost[asciilifeform]: I guess the object proposed isn't strictly an onion; it's a weird onion that can be unwrapped in any ordering of layers
asciilifeform: signpost: problem is that it's ruinously expensive in re bw -- yer talking to 1, but copies go to whole net. so is meant to be used sparingly (hence 'send or attempt to decode addrcasts only if >=1 cold peer in wot')
signpost[asciilifeform]: yep, and who knows when you're fully unwrapped
asciilifeform: right, hence why addrcast has only 1 'wrap'
asciilifeform: (is keyed to 1 peer, who yer unable to directly reach at given time)
asciilifeform: even supposing you wanted >1 layer, aint much you can stuff in unfragged udp.
dulapbot: (asciilifeform) 2021-07-22 asciilifeform: 'Every internet destination must be able to receive a datagram of 576 octets either in one piece or in fragments to be reassembled.
asciilifeform: addrcast, luckily, only needs to fit 6byte ipv4+port.
signpost[asciilifeform]: yep, tight space. is it information-theoretically unavoidable that layered encryption increase size?
signpost[asciilifeform]: I suppose somewhere in there, there's new information about a new key?
asciilifeform: signpost: aha
asciilifeform: at the very least, each 'unpacker' has to have some notion that he successfully unpacked. i.e. some plaintext he can expect on correct decipher, to know whether he did
asciilifeform: is rather expensive process, even leaving aside the 'meaningful to 1 , but goes to all' aspect. and largely useless to have >1 layer in it w/out public key crypto
asciilifeform: in pest we only have it for nat-drilling process, i.e. addrcast is a way to reach out w/ addr to a stranded peer w/ whom you still have a shared net.
asciilifeform: but the ultimate objective is always to re-establish proper p2pism, rather than 'broken telephone'
asciilifeform: ( other thing is that in pest, one aint guaranteed to know anyffin re yer peers' peers , they may as well be figments of imagination , from cryptological pov . )
asciilifeform: the correct way to 'reach out and touch' peer's peer is to send him a pgpgram paste and make an actual peering with him.
asciilifeform: then transforms from 'figment' to peer.
asciilifeform: and makes the net stronger.
phf[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-10-31#1014665 << i like the gossip feature that unless you get a direct message, it's otherwise a hearsay. if you don't have a direct link to asciilifeform you can figure out how to establish it in public forum, rather than attempt to construct a hidden, yet bulletproof side channel
bitbot[busybot]: Logged on 2022-10-31 12:30:28 signpost: leaving aside the baggage of tor, would such a thing be useful for "onion" messages, say in the case where I lose contact with asciilifeform but hope that by peer propagation I can get a message to him? seems like if a hypothetical cipher like that could be had, the message could be
phf[asciilifeform]: because your hearsay flow is basically a public forum, observable by all participants, in my estimation gross interference becomes rapidly obvious
phf[busybot]: but i can also appreciate how this approach is at odds with the attempts to make pest an underlying protocol for all kinds of comsumer stuff, because there's all kinds of automatic behaviors "consumer comes to expect"
asciilifeform: wb phf!
asciilifeform: and yes.
phf[asciilifeform]: or for that matter the fact that asciilifeform not longer explicitly set out to create a gossip protocol
asciilifeform: phf: 'not from good life'(tm), recall
dulapbot: (asciilifeform) 2022-06-06 asciilifeform: recognizes the 'inelegance' of the h(s) scheme , 'yer trying to get the win from rsa sigs w/out paying price of rsa, and will never be as good as Real Thing' but imho over9000x beats 'nuffin'
dulapbot: (asciilifeform) 2022-06-06 asciilifeform: a primary objective of pest algo is 'messages cheap enuff to process that you can do it at nic line rate', and sadly incompat. w/ the use of any known serious pubkey sig algo w/out custom iron.
asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-10-31#1014691 << from asciilifeform's pov, notion of pest is to revv up a proper internet, using the traditional one in same way as it used the old telecom wiring, and extend from there. which is rather different affair from
dulapbot: (asciilifeform) 2021-11-21 asciilifeform: jonsykkel: 'secret' objective of pest is to build a wotronic internet parasitically on top of existing comms.
bitbot[busybot]: Logged on 2022-10-31 12:58:03 phf[awt]: but i can also appreciate how this approach is at odds with the attempts to make pest an underlying protocol for all kinds of comsumer stuff, because there's all kinds of automatic behaviors "consumer comes to expect"
asciilifeform: not to say that standing up a pestron oughta be 'phd assembly line'(tm), necessarily. but 'errything oughta be made simple as possible, but not simpler'(tm).
asciilifeform: * ... which is rather different affair from 'konsoomer bangs fist on pnoje', conceptually
asciilifeform: ultimately the participants have to remain aware that bw is 'not rubber' and can't throw GB+ of warez in 'all to all', 'onionism', etc. and expect any kinda useful performance
asciilifeform: use cases where 'heavy' traffic are necessarily b/w 2 peers with working direct linkage.
bitbot[asciilifeform|busybot]: Logged on 2022-10-30 10:42:33 asciilifeform[5]: signpost: pretty neat. you'll want file chunks as direct msg tho, rather than broadcast, if you let'em all-to-all no amt of bw will ever suffice. iirc we had a thread where 'let each station offer operator-selected files to own peers'.
asciilifeform at one time had crackpot notions of protocols where 'pay for transit' but not interested in baking shitcoins and left this well enuff alone, and intends to continue
asciilifeform: the fundamental problem there is that while traditional telecoms, with satellites, oceanic fiber, etc. function -- the notion of competing with'em economically is a laff; but if not function, then 'your customers' over9000x moar interested in 7.62x39 and tinned beef than 'how send packet'. with little 'in the middle'.
phf[asciilifeform]: can confirm, antena towers are used for facebook iphone, or else firestation volunteer comms, not so much for multihop microwave relay to unsit local shit internet monopoly
asciilifeform: phf: 1 of the obv reasons for this is that 'konsoomer' has very high expectations. gb/s warez, rather than 'amazing, mr. marconi can send paragraph across ocean!' -- which can only be satisfied by astonishingly expensive grid
asciilifeform: 'going ~down~ tech ladder' is a rather hard sell.
asciilifeform: the 'me an' my kalash, i'ma be own army' lulmeme scratches deep psychological itch in some folx, hence popular; 'i'ma be own at&t!' not so much
phf[busybot]: "we can have a 8ns multihop to a DC in frederick" "but prey tell mr babage, can i watch comcast sportsball come season?"
phf[asciilifeform]: fwiw it's the same people who discuss borderline q-anon stuff on facebook, boycot walmart, but shopaholic on amazon, etc.
asciilifeform: who else.
bitbot[busybot]: Logged on 2022-10-28 11:35:37 asciilifeform[5]: afaik 4chanism can only exist in counterpoint to 'homo' tho -- rather like 'dissidents' evaporated away with sovok
phf[asciilifeform]: it's an impolite, in a certain kind of company, question, where was boris strugatsky in the 90s
phf[asciilifeform]: or my mom's endless mirth, she went to some bard's concert, and the front row sing along was all standing with ukraine, vote for drumf is a vote for fascism, etc. part of jewish-russian potomac community
signpost[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-10-31#1014704 << yep. most, but not all, questioners come to socrates expecting that socrates will change.
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-10-31 13:25:10 asciilifeform[5]: ultimately the participants have to remain aware that bw is 'not rubber' and can't throw GB+ of warez in 'all to all', 'onionism', etc. and expect any kinda useful performance
signpost[asciilifeform]: there is a machine application of pest that's of interest, but it's entirely compatible with human operators being responsible for the final line of defense against link breakage.
signpost[asciilifeform] wouldn't mind to at least attempt use as a server control plane.
asciilifeform: can indeed use if properly p2p'd, and while remembering that the keyz are symmetric
signpost[asciilifeform] can imagine a scenario where folks in wot offer capacity to folks buying same, using phf's notions of an in-pest wot, plus bids/asks and proofs of payment also in pestchain as structured messages.
signpost[asciilifeform]: not a complete sketch, just grunting in a direction
asciilifeform: there's no particular reason wai couldn't use a pestron in a 'slave mode' as a replacement for ssh, sans the latter's gnarly '100kloc of ???', null ciphers, etc
asciilifeform: signpost: 'buy&sell cpu' imho suffers from problem similar to 'let's make own at&t'
bitbot[asciilifeform|busybot]: Logged on 2022-10-31 13:32:48 asciilifeform[6]: the fundamental problem there is that while traditional telecoms, with satellites, oceanic fiber, etc. function -- the notion of competing with'em economically is a laff; but if not function, then 'your customers' over9000x moar interested in 7.62x39 and tinned beef than 'how
signpost[asciilifeform]: only if you want to avoid trusting your friends.
signpost[asciilifeform]: if you and I had a deal for me to run phuctor on a spare box, there's no need for mathematical proof that I will do so.
asciilifeform: i suppose 'if you've enuff friends, can sell almost anything'
asciilifeform: but how many who willing to pay 5$ where lulazon wants 5cent
asciilifeform: ('the FG problem')
signpost[asciilifeform]: "what use is a baby"
signpost[busybot]: but yes, no question it's the same problem
asciilifeform: moar of 'what use is acorn'
asciilifeform: it aint even that 'no one can compete with $megacorp', but that 'i'ma sell xyz to phriends' biz model has obv weaknesses, as illustrated in history of #t
asciilifeform: at some pt one needs over9000x moar phriends, or over9000x richer ones, or to try to peddle $FG to randos somehow
signpost[asciilifeform]: re onion, I was curious whether there's such thing as cryptographic commutivity and it sounds like at least one barrier is "how do you know when you've performed a step in the operation correctly?"
signpost[busybot] not eductated in these things, recall
asciilifeform: signpost: there is, but only w/ rsa-style number-theoretic schemes
signpost[busybot]: and yep, I don't have grand designs on an in-pest consumer market warpath
asciilifeform: i.e. slooowly
signpost[asciilifeform]: statecraft is an art project; one'd always be better off doing anything else
signpost[asciilifeform]: like "there's some offset between this key and that, and you don't know the offset" ?
signpost[asciilifeform]: or sub offset with some operation
asciilifeform: nah, it worked like this (1980 piece)
asciilifeform: simply used exponentiation with large seekrit prime as the function E
asciilifeform: *modulo with
asciilifeform: i.e. variant of rsa where both exponents -- seekrit
asciilifeform: consequently could do this.
bitbot[asciilifeform|busybot]: Logged on 2022-10-31 12:22:09 asciilifeform[4]: there aint a block cipher where can e.g. decrypt(key1, encrypt(key2, encrypt(key1, payload))).
asciilifeform: 'somehow' (nsasomehow) diffie-hellman became 'Official standard' instead, tho does ~same thing
asciilifeform: (in either case, objective is for 2 parties to agree on a random bitstring w/out sending it over the wire where snoop sees it)
phf[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-10-31#1014742 << i've ranted about this before, but i don't think that's a deep enough conclusion. problem is not "sell to phriends" problem is that everyone is the subject of globohomo first, and a friend second. related is that fact that "talk to my accountant over gpg and pay him in btc"
phf[asciilifeform]: has always been a larp.
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-10-31 14:18:50 asciilifeform[5]: it aint even that 'no one can compete with $megacorp', but that 'i'ma sell xyz to phriends' biz model has obv weaknesses, as illustrated in history of #t
asciilifeform: entirely tru tho
phf[asciilifeform]: mp didn't really /need/ tmsr for anything, so his btc went to whoring, restaurants, travel, etc. which is not a bitcoin economic activity, but rather exchanging gold for local shells and bottlecaps
asciilifeform: not that 'subject of reich' can't occasionally fork over bit of paper dough or btc to buy magick goodies phriend baked in basement. but the notion that 'get rich from this' is 'larp' and good, quick way to lose shirt
signpost[asciilifeform]: yup, and even if globohomo falls, still a larp to think one'd be in a freer position in those circumstances.
phf[busybot]: right, effectivelly it's the buying of pizza with btc
signpost[asciilifeform]: for my part, what's interesting is what keeps one able to have unmediated conversations.
asciilifeform: it is even possible to sustain baking the pizzas and feast erry week. but not 'i'ma be fulltime baker'
phf[asciilifeform]: that's why when i came back was ranting a lot about the amish, not necessarily as a society to emulate (can't amish without halibarton defending you from the chinee), but as an illustration of a working example of bootstrepped ecoonimic machine
asciilifeform: amish, hassids, etc. and over9000x folx observed already, they did not need any kinda electronics, new or old, they work rather differently
asciilifeform: and civilian can't 'install hassid firmware'
asciilifeform recalls #a thrd re subj, not came to any substantially diff conclusion than above
dulapbot: (asciilifeform) 2022-01-14 asciilifeform: recommends his strategy -- of conducting biz in btc strictly to fill a hodl -- to others, but not under illusion that it is generally applicable
phf[asciilifeform]: but then why
asciilifeform: notion -- 'pizza' aint necessarily useless
asciilifeform: today pizza, tomorrow -- smuggled deutschmarks a la 1990, or whatever equiv.
asciilifeform: 'if anyone asks -- pizza strictly'
asciilifeform: ( if phf's q was 'wai bother with computer', however, there aint necessarily good answer. 'why digging with spoon?' 'there's no spade in this cell' )
bitbot[busybot|asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-08-24 12:26:33 asciilifeform[5]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-08-22#1011269 << asciilifeform not blind to the fact that ~errything he does is either a chore or a 'displacement'. for all the good this realization does, lol
asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-10-31#1014769 << if understood phf's observation, 'yer still mediated by at&t lol'. but imho 'hey we dug 15 metres with spoon, let's dig 15 moar'
bitbot[busybot|asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-10-31 14:32:40 signpost: for my part, what's interesting is what keeps one able to have unmediated conversations.
phf[busybot|asciilifeform]: nah, the why was more like "building frontier economics" vs "hodl". in my mind hodl was always a bonus, particularly since i've never had enough of fuck you btc. i thought that mpex, gpg contracts, pseudonymity of nick<>rsa prime, was it.
phf[asciilifeform]: which is the amish, hassid, etc. part of the whole operation
asciilifeform: was always the '???' in the 'xyz, ???, Profit!!!' of tmsr (and earlier lulmemes, the 'randroids'' 'galt paradise' etc, recall where the heroes abscond to some seekrit hideout and buy cigars from 1 anuther w/ gold coins)
asciilifeform: aficionados normally studiously ignore amish et al, because 'tech' which requires you to be born as sumbody else to 'use' it aint all that interesting
phf[busybot]: is a man not a entitle to the fruits of his labour!
asciilifeform: (tm)(r)
asciilifeform: afaik attempts to 'amish' by folx ~not~ part of 'ethno' diaspora -- historically not went far.
signpost[asciilifeform]: little bit of "how ams amish" going on here, imho worthwhile to appleseed it to them.
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-10-28 13:08:43 signpost: I want to seed it in the NH "free state" wot when I get up there, for example.
asciilifeform: signpost: last asciilifeform heard, there was plan where 'over9000 folx move to nh and elect fuhrer'. what happened to this ?
signpost[busybot]: takes time, but it's grown
asciilifeform recalls from ~20y ago... seems like oughta've been enuff time
signpost[asciilifeform]: but plenty of "hurr cops can't take my weed" among them in terms of bargain bin philosophy
asciilifeform did not actively follow subj tho
signpost[asciilifeform]: still struggling to unseat democrats let alone seat anarchists, yes.
asciilifeform: imho reminiscent of 'pirate party' ( remember these? )
asciilifeform: magicked away, somehow
phf[asciilifeform]: asciilifeform, imho once you start diging that particular hole, discover that you can't really amish without shared priors. i've been to amish service a handful of times, and every individual amish that i know is there. not like "mark is out this sunday, but there's samuel". mark is there, and so is samuel, and so is amos,
phf[asciilifeform]: and amos has covid or whatever
asciilifeform: phf: exactly. hence 'wanna amish? try being born as'
asciilifeform: it doesn't come in pill form just yet.
phf[asciilifeform]: asciilifeform, well, that's a different issue. becoming amish, but with your foundational philosophy being tmsr, vs literally becoming amish. the later is avaible, and welcomed, you just don't get an instragram picture out of it, so very few people do it
phf[asciilifeform]: not otherwise different from "becoming japanese" or "becoming russian". learn language, live in the area, go to church, do business with, etc. in 20 years maybe some of them will consider you a close friend and business partner, others will still insist on speaking english with you no mater what
asciilifeform: central q upstack imho was, tho, does 'canhaz unmediated communication' 'do sumthing' per se. entirely possibly -- that not, that it is entirely same proj as those folx who '3d print kalash', with which 0 shot anyffin, usually not even paper target. but -- possibly that not.
asciilifeform: it aint somehow a given that 'dig with spoon' goes anywhere useful. and inmate entirely within his rights to not dig, instead play cards, drink chifir etc
asciilifeform: 'to dig or not to dig' is personal matter.
asciilifeform: and 'what direction dig' a good subj for discussion. but 'to dig?' imho less
phf[asciilifeform]: well, hence we are where we are, because the original j'accuse was that "engineers will dig, just because there's dirt"
asciilifeform: some folx psychologically inclined to dig, even if 'nowhere to'
asciilifeform: (the 'displacement' thrrd etc)
asciilifeform: occasionally they get out; but moar usually just dirty, and beaten by guards
phf[busybot]: you brought up shalamov just now, and recall his story where the escape was organized by former wwii army unit, who escaped, but were doomed and knew it, "still better to die free men"
asciilifeform: iirc 1 of the few that got translated and came out in eng
asciilifeform: ( iirc there are several versions of the legend, also )
phf[asciilifeform]: i think it's in second half of the kolima tales, though that one translation that exists is god awful
asciilifeform[busybot]: 'last battle of major pugachev'
phf[busybot]: they stripped shalamov poetic language, and all that's left is the "horrors ilza, the werewolf of ss"
phf[busybot]: *horrors of
asciilifeform: well they didn't have an english shalamov to make it go in eng. so yea stripped
asciilifeform: making 'poetic' in eng is on the order of porting 'doom' to c64
phf[busybot]: i still think though that "why dig" is an important question, because it attempts to set some kind of parameters for the final result. imho test for "3d printed kalash" is are you going to grab it when the time comes, or are you going to reach for your license and registration instead
phf[busybot]: as it stands, pest is the comfy network with frens. the transmission on my lexus went, at a rather inopportune time. everyone who can help me in that situation are rather within the walls of the compound, or else only reachable by various globohomo means.
phf[busybot]: *are either
asciilifeform: phf: 1 thing is that 'comf with frens' offers satisfaction of incremental results. for instance, this -- solved.
dulapbot: (asciilifeform) 2022-07-07 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-07#1110808 << initially asciilifeform had a very concrete problem -- 'how do i announce rack outages if dulapnet lives in selfsame rack?' -- and tried (with help from signpost et al) to shoehorn classical irc. turned out that in fact the shoehorn dun fit, irc impose
asciilifeform: take small bite; then anuther; and at some pt will be able to call the fixer via 3 hops of 900mhz or watnot. 'what does this do?' is separate q, and only answerable when extending the hypothetical to e.g. 'can call when no tower?' 'can call when his socialcredit(tm) is insufficient to use tower' etc
asciilifeform: unlike kalash, does not req a 'decisive' 1 act of 'allahu akbar'
asciilifeform: but rather over9000 small allahu-akbars.
asciilifeform recalls own crackpot quest at uni to get profs interested in 'p2p cellphone' proj. came, naively, with figures, arguments involving 1/d^2 and wattages, etc.
asciilifeform: 'why pay at&t when 24 outta 25 of yer callers are within 1km'
asciilifeform: fortunately we dun need to sell pest to committee; itworx(tm) w/out approval of committee..
asciilifeform: q of whether mechanic (or whoever else) will behave, or think, 'differently' if he dun have to use the tower -- easy to answer 'lolno', but imho 'only gods know', entirely possible that ~some~ -- yes, and interestingly.
asciilifeform: or instead like 1990s pgp, 'lolno'
asciilifeform: but in either case it defo aint about 'canhaz twatter but not ban people for selfie in trumpf hat'.
asciilifeform: if about anyffin, is about other things, yet not known.
asciilifeform: ( and most of these, likely 'small' and individually unsexy -- canhaz p2p warez a la early 2000s, for instance. canhaz www hosting not ddosable. etc )
asciilifeform: even 'www that doesn't fall down when author dies' is imho a serious win.
phf[asciilifeform]: i feel like we've had this particular subthread before, multiple times, and then, like now, you've misunderstood my point
asciilifeform: imho understood, and agreed, w/ phf's point (and then also)
asciilifeform: 'spoon tunnel at best only goes to next barrack'
asciilifeform: and prolly can bet on this, and not lose.
asciilifeform if knew how to instead invent recipe for folx to live on sunlight, and build house in parallel dimension away from reich -- would work on ~that~
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-07-14 14:20:17 asciilifeform: “Well, do you have another globe?”
asciilifeform: in ye olde sovok, folx spent considerable elbow grease on 'how to illicitly print copies of xyz', sat with typewriters and carbon paper, ran over9000 b&w photos, etc. and in the end who the fuck cares. today anyone can buy xerox, but why.
asciilifeform: easily -- this.
asciilifeform at one pt wanted to reconstruct usenet, naively thinking that the folx who used to live there would somehow come back
asciilifeform: do ideas & conversations matter? nfi. possibly -- not
asciilifeform: then -- maybe the ants will build moar interesting civ, where they do.
asciilifeform: the basic q imho is open q, of whether there is a layer of human remaining beneath the 'but pray tell'.., that could be excavated.
bitbot[busybot|asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-10-31 13:48:49 phf[awt]: "we can have a 8ns multihop to a DC in frederick" "but prey tell mr babage, can i watch comcast sportsball come season?"
phf[asciilifeform]: information is suddenly infinitely cheap, while sorting through that information is infinitely expensive
asciilifeform: with wot, hypothetically -- finitely
asciilifeform: with firehouse of '1e10 monkeys' -- yes, infinitely.
asciilifeform: *firehose
phf[asciilifeform]: i need to patch a hole in my jeep, should i be using bondo body filler, then primer, then paint. or fiberglass w/ resin? should i even bother at all or just coat with linseed oil? i have 1000 youtube videos that answer YES, NO to previous questions in all the possible permutations.
asciilifeform with steelshaving-laden epoxy, then paint, but 'not loox new' fwiw
phf[asciilifeform]: my meat wot's answer is "rust is but a manefestation of the divine will, cover up its shame, and drive that sucker until the frame separateth from the body"
asciilifeform: or, moar recently, 'furnace lights then gas turns off'. forums: 'clean flame sensor rod'. it's clean. turns out, poor ground connect, thing is meant to conduct 120v via fire to ground. but no helpful forum crib sheet, had to infer from physical principles lol
asciilifeform: 'best magician cannot pull rabbit from hat unless there is a rabbit in the hat' etc
phf[busybot]: asciilifeform, yeah millions of those, most jsut left unanswered. is all this science "better" than a local elder giving you maybe bad advice (make sure you put onion in your varnish!), but also giving you the peace of mind that you probably made a decend enough decision :>
asciilifeform: often enuff, lacking the shaman with onion, stuck with empirical method.
phf[asciilifeform]: i mean, usenet was not much better in this respect, invtented topical flamewars. there's at least two men, right this very second, still connected to usenet through either google forums or a paid service, having a epoxy VS fiberglass debate
asciilifeform: 'chess by vote'
asciilifeform: sometimes tho someone who could actually play was present.
asciilifeform learned moar re organik chem from al schwartz than from 4 semesters of same in '2nd tour of duty' at uni
phf[busybot]: "this here thread ran 25 years, had its own hostring shard when things like that were a concern, inventend new branch of material science meanwhile and spawn a handful of phds, the car that i was going to treat has since rusted and been decomitioned, etc but my children will carry on my vigil, for the filthy fiberglass scu
phf[busybot]: m shall not have their last word"
phf[asciilifeform]: asciilifeform, i've been rereading some old common lisp threads, mostly because i'm hacking genera in my spare time and the kind of questions i want answers to have not been raised since early 2000s
phf[asciilifeform]: and i'm starting to doubt naggum's merit :>
phf[asciilifeform]: man had no chill, and outside of a handful of highly insightful posts he was mostly an unhinged psycho
signpost[asciilifeform]: as a younger man I thought I was being clever by selecting philosophy out of the madness/religion/philosophy trilemma.
signpost[busybot]: ended up thinking the religion was the substrate atop which the philosophy, as per thread a while back.
signpost[asciilifeform] hears phf asking what the hell the cultural substrate of the engineering ought to be.
signpost[asciilifeform]: curious if he'll laugh if I say christendom.
phf[asciilifeform]: greeks answered that question, cultural substrate of engineering is cuckoldry
signpost[asciilifeform]: sec while I quote middle mp against late mp on this subj.
bitbot[asciilifeform]: (trilema) 2015-04-10 mircea_popescu: what motivates the monkey to pick up the rock isn't some sort of contorted dream about becoming a rockthrowing revolutionary ceo.
bitbot[busybot]: (trilema) 2015-04-10 mircea_popescu: most of human history, and the vast majority of everything nice and good, came out of cause-oriented. so common in fact it didn't even have a name.
phf[asciilifeform]: but that's the same mp!
bitbot[asciilifeform]: (trilema) 2019-12-14 mp_en_viaje: most beings an engineer produce useful things only as an unintentional / coincidental byproduct of an internal cycle of self-assuaging that's broadly unrelated to anything else.
signpost[busybot]: I don't know that "why work to ensure free comms" can be justified more satisfactorily than "because the truth is redemptive, emerges out of free dialogue, and god commands that uncovering truth is the highest good"
signpost[asciilifeform]: not saying that last bit casually; it'd just never end if one wanted to elaborate it.
phf[busybot]: signpost, you're commenting on asciilifeform's commentary rather than my original point
signpost[busybot]: not intentionally at least.
phf[busybot]: i figured, i'm not sure how this thread started, and i'm too lazy to reread, but something i said prompted asciilifeform to re-raise our old argument "why dig". when it comes to free comms my concerns is not "why have it?" but more like "what should be done so that there's a meangful communication going on over the comms",
phf[busybot]: and the second question "what are we missing if we were to attempt to accomodate such future arrangement"
signpost[busybot]: yeah, that was my answer to your question, if unclear.
signpost[busybot]: the thing you're saying it needs has to be imposed, which is why mp was sufficient foundation for the prior era.
signpost[busybot]: he imposed.
signpost[asciilifeform]: also why I've said fuck it all, I'll just be an agnostic christian like any good thinking european. what else?
phf[asciilifeform]: well, before we impose, we should figure out what we're imposing
phf[asciilifeform]: i'm not saying "lets force my mechanic to use pest", that wasn't in the original observation either
phf[asciilifeform]: mechanic is long downstream, and not much important
signpost[asciilifeform]: no, normies just take the shape of their container.
phf[busybot]: like in the car case, to solve that problem, i either talk to the locals (i.e. within the compound), or else i talk to my economic partners. the later fully attached to the dominant system.
phf[busybot]: and the two kinds of communcation point at two directions of exploration of the whole
phf[asciilifeform]: locals are kind of like amish, and the obvious question there "why do you even need all this technology"
phf[asciilifeform]: where's economic partners are the second part of the tmsr question, "how does one fully detach himself from the spectacle without becoming a hermit/preper/etc"
signpost[asciilifeform]: this is why I've got at least a little bit of interest getting the NH state government using.
phf[busybot]: and in the second case "free comms" don't buy much either, since you know, when i call my biz partner i'm pretty sure both ALEXA and SIRI are passively listening to our conversation in his house
signpost[asciilifeform]: it's for when the US starts falling apart, not a larp about doing so helping it. to my mind one wants to get as much alternative structure in place and hope the place shakes hard enough that the crust falls away, new structure remains.
phf[asciilifeform]: nd the second case with economic partnerns is kind of more interesting anyway, because nobody wants to be an amish. i mean it makes sense when you're zero skill urbanite, moving to a zendik farm to raise chickens. for me to raise chickens is like the least possible leveraged economic activity, whether or behalf of the spec
phf[asciilifeform]: tacle, or for the benefit of a hypothetical amish/hasidic closed society
signpost[asciilifeform]: yeah, I don't know if it's my own arrogance that'll kill me, but I've already lived on a subsistence farm for a few years, and that was enough.
signpost[asciilifeform]: because it's too damned stable. it *can* run like that forever.
signpost[asciilifeform]: I checked out to the other side of the divorce precisely because "this is it?"
signpost[asciilifeform] has a sinus migraine acting up, will return when the pill kicks in.
phf[busybot]: i sort of entertain the thought of doing a beef farm, but i'm going at it xach beane (quicklisp guy) way: have lots of money to buy all the equipment that real farmers spend decades loaning and assembling
phf[asciilifeform]: but that's a "boy from russia who watched too many john wayne movies" version of "retiring to own a winery in CA"
asciilifeform: nuffin wrong with 'marie antoinette farm' as hobby, if no illusions re wat it is
asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-10-31#1014875 << if you've got spare cycles, do consider to say moar. catastrophic shortage of just about anyffin on the net naodays re subj
bitbot[asciilifeform|busybot]: Logged on 2022-10-31 16:06:17 phf[awt]: asciilifeform, i've been rereading some old common lisp threads, mostly because i'm hacking genera in my spare time and the kind of questions i want answers to have not been raised since early 2000s
asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-10-31#1014877 << d00d left to archaeologists very little other than some (very suggestive of having 'done real work'(tm)) usenet posts (which asciilifeform collected here)
bitbot[asciilifeform|busybot]: Logged on 2022-10-31 16:07:47 phf[awt]: man had no chill, and outside of a handful of highly insightful posts he was mostly an unhinged psycho
dulapbot: (trilema) 2016-01-19 ascii_butugychag: the whole point of engineering is to cut apart the happenstance-linked crud from what you actually want.
bitbot[busybot|asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-10-31 16:09:01 signpost: hears phf asking what the hell the cultural substrate of the engineering ought to be.
signpost[asciilifeform]: consider god a term of art in context of the thread.
asciilifeform: well yes
asciilifeform: man doomed to engineer ever since forgot how to grow own fur etc
asciilifeform: reqs no philosophies, in the simplest case.
signpost[asciilifeform]: well, and have discourse ever since eyes in front, not back
asciilifeform: not seen anyone (not even mp) suggest that 'shoemaker makes shoes because, see, cuckoldry'
asciilifeform: while engineering simply reduces to 'make shoe differently from how grandfather made'
signpost[asciilifeform]: the "here is a rock" of it to my mind is that humans *do* form a hivemind as fish swim.
asciilifeform: folx who 'luvvv stability' (because see selves as on 'correct side' of its barrel) do ask 'why make differently'
bitbot[busybot]: Logged on 2022-10-31 16:30:16 signpost: because it's too damned stable. it *can* run like that forever.
signpost[busybot]: any given human mind is the product of its "being-with" the hivemind it inhabits
signpost[asciilifeform]: best men, hivemind even more with the dead than the living.
signpost[asciilifeform]: might not even need philosophy to leap to "improving hivemind-ation". just wait until the guys that did come and kill you.
asciilifeform: 'arbalest is unchristian'(tm)(r)
asciilifeform: fwiw if europe hadn't turks etc nearby, could've easily sat in a reasonably stable jp-style equilibrium of 'gunpowder aint sportsmanlike'
phf[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-10-31#1014935 << that's early greek position, very explicit in both lore (homer) and mythology (hephaestus)
bitbot[busybot]: Logged on 2022-10-31 16:59:39 asciilifeform[5]: not seen anyone (not even mp) suggest that 'shoemaker makes shoes because, see, cuckoldry'
phf[asciilifeform]: and is also an accepted historic explanation "why not greek steampunk, even though knew how"
asciilifeform: 'wai do anyffin but lines of coke off back of whore, if yer not a luser' etc
asciilifeform: ^ historic consensus of mp's on whole planet, plus or minus
signpost[asciilifeform]: I'm no longer so willing to dismiss others their right to death by drowning in pussy.
signpost[busybot]: life's plenty hopeless. for those that want out, go.
phf[busybot]: i'm pretty sure, given mp's background, he took it directly from greeks. tbh i didn't even doubt that that's his source of thinking, by early conversation on subj
asciilifeform: and naturally filtered-for in 'classical education', where larval mp is asked to read aristotle, but certainly not archimedes etc
asciilifeform: directly, indeed, from greeks. these greeks.
asciilifeform: the techno-impotence of 'the greeks'(tm) was 'gift that kept on giving' for 1500+y
phf[asciilifeform]: arete for example originally associated with manly arts, strength bravey wit, as demonstrated by e.g. odysseus proving his standing to phaeacians by participating in a kind of proto-olympic event. throwing spear and such
signpost[busybot]: asciilifeform: I think the problem with taking will-to-technology as the whole of system of thought is "here is a rock" becomes "here is antimatter" as time goes on.
phf[busybot]: but same odysseus was suspected of being low-key fag for being crafty in his approach, to e.g. war. sneaking into troy first on an expedition and then using trojan horse, etc. he gets called out for this kind of faggy behavior bunch of times.
signpost[busybot]: (and all of our attempts at the implied problem are bad)
signpost[busybot]: it's interesting that manliness is oriented in the softer direction here. towards idealized game.
phf[busybot]: and of course hephaestus, god of craft and smithing, was _the_ original cuckold, married as he was to aphrodite (due to no doubt all dat sillicon valley bucks) bunch of mythos is her sleeping around, and him seething, but not being able to do much about it, for he is a cripple otherwise, and lacks manhood to put her in che
asciilifeform: signpost: recall, pertinently, that 'spartan writes with his sword'(tm). we tend to hear, via written word, from the 'softer' 'manlies' only.
dulapbot: (trilema) 2018-10-13 asciilifeform: dun forget the 'height of the towers' tho. pretty much all of the samurai poetry / arts / etc come from the period where jp had already been properly divvied up, and the swordsmen were living fast off guaranteed kokus of rice, rather than daily raid
signpost[busybot]: I didn't say it was bad. said interesting.
signpost[busybot]: probably right and proper means of nature tending away from waste.
signpost[busybot]: I brought up god because there is no "wai do" other than abstracting, elevating, and worshipping a god.
asciilifeform: humans fixating ritualistically on using 1 organ instead of anuther -- not new
phf[asciilifeform]: asciilifeform, yeah, but that's kind of the mp's "proper woman after the death of her man should spend rest of life writing about how awesome he was"
asciilifeform: speaking of these, hadn't looked in a while, but apparently still feb. of '22
signpost[asciilifeform]: god can be "soviet spaceman" as well as zeus.
asciilifeform recalls the old theory where 'hero matures into god over 500y' etc
phf[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-10-31#1014923 << well, i have the whole spitoon, last know backup tapes of a handful of bolix sites. when i have free time i've been teasing out various sources from their all over the place locations. but i've been doing it from inside genera, so more time is spent either setting it up or
phf[asciilifeform]: hacking to be useful. there's obv no information on this subject anywhere
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-10-31 16:50:42 asciilifeform[5]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-10-31#1014875 << if you've got spare cycles, do consider to say moar. catastrophic shortage of just about anyffin on the net naodays re subj
asciilifeform[busybot] sees the 'aristotelian' cosmography as product of 'thug aint happy to simply dominate others, needs to believe that he is chosen by gods'. ditto the dimwit, not happy to simply dominate via numbers, but 'hephaestus has to be a cripple and cuck'
asciilifeform: phf: neato
asciilifeform regrets to inform that got nowhere useful in many yrs in re bolixology. was set to buy, finally, electron microscope ('sweet deal'), then realized has nuffin with which to shave the layers away, nor a sputtering rig...
asciilifeform: and hasn't enuff 'ivories' to 'i'ma shave with buffing stone and avg together the pics'
asciilifeform recv'd useful materials, even, from 'informants want to stay anonymous'(tm), but sadly these opened moar questions than answrs and not obviated the need for above
phf[busybot]: i sent one ivory to zeptabar at peak lockdowns for it to be lost in geneva, switzerland mail distribution facility. so much for the infamous swiss clockwork
asciilifeform: zepto fwiw not afaik to date posted even 1 actual multilayer stripdown
asciilifeform: is just some d00d with microscope and afaik none of the other gear
phf[busybot]: well, it's the case "first problem is we ran out of gunpowder"
asciilifeform: phf's approach -- reading the src, disasming bins, etc. is prolly the only 1 that'll ever yield anyffin, as req's only infinite patience with magnifying glass and 0 particle beams
phf[asciilifeform]: fwiw no need to disassemble bins either
asciilifeform recalls a 'reason wai there wasn't an emulator that dun crash is that thing was fulla timing-via-emptyloops' thrd
asciilifeform: i.e. authors of emulator weren't in fact privy to details of the arch, because the latter possibly not even written down anywhere
phf[asciilifeform]: i just very patiently waited until the moment when possibly all that's left of bolix ip ended up in my lap, mostly by work of other, much more dedicated whisperers
asciilifeform had comparatively modest objective of 'replicate macivory in fpga', notionally ~then~ at leisure archaeologize therein
asciilifeform: rather than 'archaeologize with $maxint card that might burn out any hour'
asciilifeform: (fwiw mine gives ecc eggogs occasionally, and it's 'brand new' comparatively)
asciilifeform: 'archaeologize with emulator' found quite frustrating.
asciilifeform was also moar interested in low-level detail than even the outward lisp end, e.g. how did the iron-assisted gc work, and the like
phf[busybot]: original emulator was written by bolix wizards, as per http://pt.withington.org/publications/VLM.pdf, but the opengenera2 leak relies on brad parker's (righteous) hack of making gnarly machine generated dec alpha code work on x86
asciilifeform: aha, saw
asciilifeform: the emptyloops that worked on the dec, evidently, not so much on pc
asciilifeform: vlm/snap4 etc had strong 'wunderwaffe in last minute of fall of berlin' flavour to it
asciilifeform: worked. sorta.
phf[busybot]: so i did spend some time attempting to get parker's code to work more reliably when i ported it to mac, but the issue i ran into was the same one he had: his interpretation of some of the instructions was not quite correct. the crashes would all come from the alpha ivory instruction handlers
asciilifeform: is why opening up the actual ic would be a++ imho
asciilifeform: afaik was the only 100% working example of subj
asciilifeform: (and yes maybe would fail if driven at 300mhz instead of 1, because emptyloops on realtime clock a la msdos or similar. but would be still mega-improvement on old emulator)
asciilifeform: 'ivory', if somehow netlistized, would handily sit down in a ecp5 etc
bitbot[asciilifeform|busybot]: Logged on 2022-10-28 13:56:27 asciilifeform[5]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-10-28#1014566 << fwiw there are nao ice40-compat. ('ecp5', ~83k LUTs) w/ gb nic, for signpost's old idea re 'filter for validly signed incoming packets in dc'
phf[asciilifeform]: the instruction bits, in the best lisp machine tradition were generated using lisp, they are basically a bunch of defmacros
asciilifeform: in that 1 and only public paper, they, yes, bragged about '100% lisp-generated tapeout mask' etc
phf[asciilifeform]: that look like (MOVQ arg2 FOO_STATE (thing))
asciilifeform: and this in the end shat out the film for tapeout etc
asciilifeform: part of what made the artifact interesting to asciilifeform
phf[asciilifeform]: but anyway, gary palter since then, using the original code, rewrote the relevant generator bits, to spit out x86 directly. this new and improved emulator only ever crashed once on me while i was mucking with the internals
phf[busybot]: *x86 and m1 arm
asciilifeform: dunsuppose he ever posted the orig code anywhere?
phf[asciilifeform]: no, it was supposed to be a commercial project, that for reasons plenty discussed in the logs never went anywhere
asciilifeform bought up enuff iron that, theoretically, could contract, like normal person, with a reversing lab, and get the job done. but lacks the meatwot to pick reliable folx, rather than sink 50k$ to charlatans, so so far sucking thumb
bitbot[busybot|asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-10-31 15:57:19 phf[awt]: my meat wot's answer is "rust is but a manefestation of the divine will, cover up its shame, and drive that sucker until the frame separateth from the body"
signpost[asciilifeform]: looks like on github somewhere, lookin
signpost[busybot]: taken down or private I guess.
asciilifeform: signpost: prolly in his private one
asciilifeform: well, if 'commercial'
phf[busybot]: well, the end of that thread says, "is there any news around this? A free release of OG?" "Sorry but there’s nothing new to report. The owner of the Symbolics IP hasn’t responded to any inquiries in several months now."
signpost[busybot]: looks like he wanted to
asciilifeform: soo, d00d wrote emulator, then... went to zombie mallery for 'ask permission' to show it to anyone. lol
asciilifeform: mega-proj
asciilifeform: what can zombie say but 'grrr, brains'
signpost[asciilifeform]: eh, I'm not going to blame anybody for not wanting to self-immolate in court for this.
signpost[asciilifeform]: anyway, didn't mean to interrupt.
asciilifeform was afaik 1st to bring up a public torrent of the orig genera src. and, somehow, not gassed.
asciilifeform: iirc dks even left a snide comment on 'piratebay' -- 'thank you for downloading finest software envir ever devised...'
asciilifeform: fwiw as soon as asciilifeform bought the 'ivory', posted its complete disk image on www. not even dks complained.
asciilifeform: (much less 'bolix riaa' sued)
asciilifeform: ^ also has 'full' src (well, the subset they give on the cd pack you get w/ the box)
asciilifeform: the folx who 'sit on bolix finds' aint afraid of lawsuits but of 'my source won't give me moar if he finds out i posted it', complicated web of this, iirc phf described
asciilifeform: near as can tell, (at least some?) of these folx hope somehow to become officers of a hypothetically reconstituted bolix co.
asciilifeform: ( starting with mallery, who 'i bought for $mil, but Worth Billions!' -- or alternatively, per asciilifeform's hypothesis, simply happy to sit on the whole thing for nsa & co. who not eager to see even toy example of cpu-and-os-sans-overflows rise from bottom of ocean )
signpost[asciilifeform]: dragon sits in the hoard because "here is gold" eh?
asciilifeform: 'of course it's gold, see, i'm sitting on it, what else could it be'
phf[asciilifeform]: it's hard for me to talk to palter's motivations, he could just be live by the sword, die by the sword type. he wrote the original code, his "new" emulator relies on both original emulator source and unreleased genera sources to work
asciilifeform: if had to guess, would guess he used material from dks given on understanding that 'wouldnt be used for anyffin at all'
phf[asciilifeform]: his work was a paid contract, presumably with all the trappings. the "just leak it to public" is not even in the universe where this transaction transpired
signpost[asciilifeform]: asciilifeform: point being dragon can't spend gold, is afaik integral to the myth.
asciilifeform at one time offered to dks 'let's make fpga subst for macivory' but, unsurprisingly, he had no reason to trust 'farther than could throw' so no, not paid
asciilifeform: iirc phf even had story where dks recounted 'didja know, 1 nut offered...'
phf[asciilifeform]: asciilifeform, dks being the last known face of symbolics, i suspect he gets lots of communication, and more often than not from crackpots :>
asciilifeform: lulzily, even the incident where asciilifeform paid his ~entire wage for the biz yr did not upgrade from 'crackpot'
dulapbot: (asciilifeform) 2022-04-07 asciilifeform: re dks , imho rather odd that feeding him for yr+ still dun getcha distinguished from 'autistic redditus'. but nfi.
asciilifeform got the d00d a decent, if short-lived usg contract
asciilifeform: to dks's credit, he did sell to asciilifeform his (claimed -- last) stock of spare 'ivory' cpu. (likely knowing full well for what to be used)
asciilifeform: that was most recent purchase.
asciilifeform: maybe was b/c 'cessna' needed new engine just then. nfi
asciilifeform: ( or because knew that gettin anyffin useful from these is over9000x easier said than done. )
phf[asciilifeform]: dks is a skilled salesman, and to a great extent he's milking rock here
asciilifeform: 1 time he managed to sell to asciilifeform ~outer shell~ of tape drive, 'maybe you find some tapes, and all you need is that-there standard drive from '80s'
asciilifeform: still, lol, have it
asciilifeform: 'custom bolix cable!11'
asciilifeform: a++ sales, can't deny
phf[asciilifeform]: if he had a full ip ownership, he'd sell opengenera as a subscription service, probably with same source arrangement as what you get on CD. all kinds of surface/application layer stuff, but of course no compiler or gc or dynamic windows or anything like that
asciilifeform: aaha, sorta like how one can still 'buy' e.g. openvms, from what remained of compaq
asciilifeform: 'here's half of the thing, and btw you agree not to actually ~do~ anyffin with it'
asciilifeform 1st time bought a lispm from dks, did so largely to get the cds. and bummer, was ~same as the warez one, lol
asciilifeform recalls trading it to phf for sample of 'ivory', and the latter iirc also traded it for sumthing somewhere
asciilifeform: wonder whatever happened to that box
asciilifeform: perhaps gone around earth n times, traded.
asciilifeform: thing was ~100kg, with both parts summed..
asciilifeform recalls having to take it apart & reseat things merely after moving from 1 desk to anuther
phf[busybot]: originally the reason why i wanted to get my hands on opengenera source is because i wanted to use it in quant contexts, kind of like how k/kdb is one type of specialized solution, a lispmachine in a vm could've been another. but for that usecase the system should obv be unencumbered, because last thing an investment fund
phf[asciilifeform]: wants to do is to use warez (though i suppose they won't be opposed to it, as long as the outcome outweighs downsides, etc.)
asciilifeform: a makes sense
asciilifeform: once you want >1 man operating the thing, they start to care whether warez
phf[asciilifeform]: THEN once i realized that ip is utter mess, i figured can be used to for tmsr, where "fuck you you can't use it" is an acceptable license. "we plundered this here system from the enemy"
phf[asciilifeform]: but then lisp fell out of favor, and everyone switched to ada :)
asciilifeform was interested in it from pov of 'make actually engineered, rather than fungal 74xxx late night undergrads fidgeting, clone'
asciilifeform: 'grandfather's axe', 'replace handle, replace blade', 1st lose the '80s soup of hardware hacks, then -- the global-variables-and-beer fungal software stack, what'd remain would, in theory, be 'sane comp', was the thought.
phf[asciilifeform]: so at this point i can't really care that palter or malory or the lizards are keeping the thing under wraps. i get to play with the thing when i have nothing better to do, and it's kind of mediocre :> if the ip and the everything around it wasn't so utterly fucked in the late 80s early 90s, possibly oculd've become "the wa
phf[asciilifeform]: y things are", but as it stands i'm not even sure, what, if anything, can be salvaged
asciilifeform conceived of whole affair as, 1st of all, investigation into 'wat to salvage'. there were obv. things to salvage (e.g. they had reliable iron gc; ui where 'click on $object and see src of it' etc)
phf[asciilifeform]: ftr some of the code i benchmarked out of curiousity when porting things around is about 7x slower than unoptimized sbcl
asciilifeform: ( but not 100% obv that the simplest way to get these is to salvage from bolix, rather than remake from 1st principles )
asciilifeform: phf: slower b/c emulates ancient heap of '80s irons ? or from ~algo~ pov ?
phf[asciilifeform]: asciilifeform, i suspect it's a combination. a mainloop on an ivory is conceptually close to an evaluator on cmucl: where ivory instructions are "VOPs"
phf[busybot]: i can't pull from the top of my head how fast cmucl's evaluator is compared to its compiler, but that should be the baseline
phf[asciilifeform]: can't really go past that since you're working with a virtual machine
asciilifeform: sorta wai asciilifeform was over9000x moar interested in reviving the iron per se in modern (fpga) variant, than in emulator. i.e. the appeal from asciilifeform's pov is concretely to ~lose x86~ and its pile of undoc'd gpus etc driven mandatorily w/ c liquishit, the bookcase fulla pile of realmode->protmode->longmode hacko
asciilifeform: * ... realmode->protmode->longmode hackolade, the shelf fulla bus specs, all that liquishit.
asciilifeform: instead 'here is a comp, described in these 150pg, that actually maeks sense and here's a graphical lisp' etc
asciilifeform: not took long to realize that it aint aboutta be '150pg' if from bolix.
phf[asciilifeform]: asciilifeform, smbx garbage collector is btw in software
asciilifeform: phf: aha, but w/ support from tagged ram etc neh
phf[busybot]: yeah, i think tagged memory is the main win of the whole thing, from hardware level perspective
asciilifeform: and the 1 thing that can't get 'on x64 with clever hand-sewn kernel in asm'
phf[asciilifeform]: you can do things like allocate pined, continous, etc. regions of unsigned-byte's, but you will never be confused as to what it is
asciilifeform: + cdr-coding etc
phf[asciilifeform]: i can probably spend this life studying what's there, and then next life implementing a replacement ;)
asciilifeform: at this rate, race not b/w turtle and achilles, but 2 turtles, possib. even asciilifeform gets microscopist and working fpga netlist before the emulator folx gather the summed balls to post working emulator, lol
asciilifeform: the dough, perversely, not the obstacle, obstacle instead 'where to spend'
asciilifeform: ( talked to umd folx, they have the SEM but not, insisted, the particle beam setup to strip layers correctly )
asciilifeform: 'come use the SEM, 100$/h, if 150 comes with slave' or approx
phf[asciilifeform]: 150 hours?
phf[asciilifeform]: slave is there to ensure max h
asciilifeform: ( it aint as if photo == netlist, naturally, that -- by hand, sit for yr+... )
asciilifeform: there's various softs to help, but all 'semi auto'
asciilifeform: all of this over9000x easier, yes, for '80s 1.8uM ic , than for current-day. but still not 'easy like spitting'
asciilifeform: thing is approx on par w/ i486 re density/count.
asciilifeform: afaik densest ic 'publicly' reversed to date was c64's 6502.
phf[asciilifeform]: yeah, but the end result is that you now have an emulator of a bolix lisp machine, which you're going to do what with? study and run genera? doesn't get you any closer to hypothetical "going full chuck moore"
phf[asciilifeform]: it's probably possible to describe ivory in very precise high level terms from what's available as is, where reversing will not give you any more insight into its nature
asciilifeform: well, warez genera attached to e.g. gb/s nic, tb of dram, etc. may be moar interesting / appealing item, from certain pov
bitbot[asciilifeform|busybot]: Logged on 2022-10-31 18:14:20 phf[awt]: originally the reason why i wanted to get my hands on opengenera source is because i wanted to use it in quant contexts, kind of like how k/kdb is one type of specialized solution, a lispmachine in a vm could've been another. but for that usecase the system should obv be unencumbered
asciilifeform: 'quantity has a quality of its own'(tm)
phf[asciilifeform]: gb/s nic that you're using 82 version of "ip/tcp" stack written in macsyma/symbolics common lisp hybrid to sling packets over, gtfo :>
asciilifeform[busybot]: as things are, nobody's aboutta host industrial realtime proggies on emulated genera.
asciilifeform: phf: wainot the '82 stack. esp. if properly airtightened by modern hands
asciilifeform: prolly moar doable than fixing any of the published c crapolade
asciilifeform: if only because mass was forcibly over9000x smaller.
phf[busybot]: *zetalisp of course not macsyma
asciilifeform: part of appeal, imho, of genera (concretely -- on dedicated iron) is that demonstrates that what it did ( particularly, 'large scale systems programming w/out c' ) was ~possible~
phf[busybot]: i have an oberon running on an fpga
asciilifeform recalls. and iirc parker's 'cadr' too
asciilifeform: but, phf did not say 'was gonna quant on oberon', fwiw
asciilifeform: there's a reason wai bolix.
asciilifeform: was -- 'adult' system
asciilifeform still has the paper docs, obtained not with purchased bolixen but from retired mit fella. sometimes leafs through'em still
asciilifeform: iirc whole set on 'bitsavers' nao tho
phf[busybot]: i've very glad i've resisted the urge to pick those up :D
phf[asciilifeform]: takes up space, etc. also pretty much mechanized spooling of document explorer's contents
asciilifeform: they were paperbacks, 8.5x11in. but good quality.
asciilifeform: some on glossy print.
asciilifeform: they fit precisely in 1 standard 3ft shelf.
asciilifeform must bbl.
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