shrysr: Prelim notes so far on V https://s.ragavan.co/2019/08/v/
diana_alt: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-16#1000232 - your user is author there, not admin so probably can't approve comments; I'll have a look into it when I get back to a more settled place as atm I'm travelling for a bit
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-16 21:24:00 shrysr: my WP allows me to auto approve your comments, but i don't see that option in younghands... ?
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-16 20:44:13 shrysr: I got going with v.py and as mentioned in the task list - i will publish whatever has been done so far so that it can be reviewed more frequently.
diana_alt: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-16#1000230 - balance is a thing too
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-16 21:07:30 shrysr: of these actions should facilitate reaching the next salt mine. This was always the 'cause'. Quick results are nice, but I prefer holistic and in-depth development, and I believe I typically try to take time to do so, sometimes in too much excess. I think I should focus much more on v.py and TMSR related stuff (whatever we agree upon here) and pick and choose specific topics outside this scope, as a part
diana_alt: but yes, in-depth *and* not-ultra-specialised
diana_alt: shrysr: you know you *can* ask here re v and signatures too, right?
shrysr: Yes.. i realised I cd have asked about signatures here after posting on #gnupg ... luckily i got a response.
shrysr: So is it like you have browser tabs open to the logs and your irc client open side by side when you respond? Usual 'settled workflow involves searching through the logs locally ?
diana_alt: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-17#1000243 -> yes; no - settled is re access over trusted networks and various auth.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-17 13:47:39 shrysr: So is it like you have browser tabs open to the logs and your irc client open side by side when you respond? Usual 'settled workflow involves searching through the logs locally ?
asciilifeform: diana_alt: fella seems to have profound talent for reading text w/out ~actually~ reading. (for instance, escaped noticing that primary diff. b/w a vpatch and a heathen patch, isn't that it is pgp signed (heathens had pgp-signed patches 20y ago) but that it doesn't fuzzy-merge.
diana_alt: asciilifeform: I suspect it's partially bad habit (environment strongly pushed it, for all I can get otherwise he resisted it as much as he could on his own but that is always patchy at best) and partially reading too much noise (where there is nothing to actually ready so...)
diana_alt: read* not ready
asciilifeform: diana_alt: i like to presume that all patients are curable, until shown otherwise; but this 1 shows quite dire symptoms of 'read-only head'
asciilifeform: prognosis, imho, not so good.
diana_alt: asciilifeform: time will tell for sure.
asciilifeform: typically there is a stage, in cure, where patient 'opens third eye' and notices that entire collective output of 'software industry' from last 30y is rubbish, from win3.1 to 'docker' to etc. but not yet happened in this one, near as i can see.
diana_alt: tall order given that he is working for them essentially and still thinking they are his future/honest
diana_alt: fwiw he has however way more drive in the right direction than I saw in a *lot* of others
asciilifeform: diana_alt: possibly i confessed this, but asciilifeform worx with the direst depths of microshitiana for bread.
diana_alt: asciilifeform: yes, but you do *not* consider them either honest or actually doing something interesting in the first place
asciilifeform: approx as 'interesting' as the yellowcake is to miner in gulag.
diana_alt: asciilifeform: if anything, I'm actually curious how much/whether you worked with teenagers (not fixed age as such but rather as relatively new products of the current education system)
asciilifeform: diana_alt: i've trained folx, but the only successes arguably were folx who already came with '3rd eye opened'
asciilifeform: so i'm prolly the very last who should be consulted on pedagogic matters.
asciilifeform: in my personal exp., the best folx were people who were drummed out of high school, and worked in warehouses, drove trucks, programmed in spare time.
asciilifeform: ... the worst ? folx with doctoral diplomas.
diana_alt: asciilifeform: it's a bit wider net, namely misfits; because yes, if they fit well, it's because they are made of the same shit in which they fit; and shrysr is a misfit as far as I can see; you may say he tried so hard to fit in that maybe he already did too much damage to himself but that I can't tell yet;
asciilifeform: ( these -- often not only ~could~ not write even 'hello world', but would spew indignantly at even being asked )
diana_alt: and moreover, it's a chance he has;
diana_alt: dunno; I ...have a doctoral diploma
asciilifeform: rright , this is not a verdict on shrysr , but general observation.
asciilifeform: diana_alt: it, as you can see, isn't necessarily fatal.
diana_alt: aha
asciilifeform: there's been a sort of sea change tho, the folx getting these displomas now , tend to be products of 'asian' style schooling, where 'phf for washing glassware'
asciilifeform: *phd
asciilifeform: 'magistral disploma for spellchecking papers'
diana_alt: perhaps I even said it before but basically upon getting my phd I was rather pissed off because "wtf, is THIS supposed to be an actual phd now?"; pretty much told my supervisor as such "your paper/title/writing on the door is not going to actually make me a professor"
diana_alt: and yes, I expect it went even more downhill, there was no going uphill
asciilifeform: and they grow, what, 1000 doctorates to 1 professorial pos. nao
asciilifeform: here in usa i met quite a few folx who in fact leave their doctorate out of their cv. 'made me unemployable'
diana_alt: hence my observation above: the only real criteria I can see is whether they fit in with the shit or not; perhaps there is some gradation there or some threshold or even some "exposure" but there's no way to tell that I can see;
asciilifeform: to extend the disease model -- i suspect the operative q is, how deeply into organism went the shit
diana_alt: alternatively, it's the other way around: whether they are made of shit or only covered in shit
diana_alt: you may say perhaps that I'm still gentle with the hose, I suppose
asciilifeform: 'made of' case is unlikely to end up on your operating table, i suspect
diana_alt: or at least last long, I would hope.
shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-17#1000246 for one thing - those are prelim notes and there is a TODO marked there meaning I need to understand the difference.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-17 14:51:34 asciilifeform: diana_alt: fella seems to have profound talent for reading text w/out ~actually~ reading. (for instance, escaped noticing that primary diff. b/w a vpatch and a heathen patch, isn't that it is pgp signed (heathens had pgp-signed patches 20y ago) but that it doesn't fuzzy-merge.
shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-17#1000252 - i aint from the 'software' industry. in case you havent noticed.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-17 14:58:29 asciilifeform: typically there is a stage, in cure, where patient 'opens third eye' and notices that entire collective output of 'software industry' from last 30y is rubbish, from win3.1 to 'docker' to etc. but not yet happened in this one, near as i can see.
asciilifeform: shrysr: noticed. i think this is why diana agreed to teach you, generally people who 'from soft. industry' unteachable.
asciilifeform: shrysr: iirc you were doing turbines at electric plants, if i'm not mistaken
shrysr: well - i have in fact gotten the 'feeling' since i;ve been here about the software industry, but i do not know enough to have an opinion.
shrysr: no i was using computational fluid dynamics to improve the desigs of centrifugal pumps.
asciilifeform: shrysr: your particular risk is that you might fall into thinking that the 'software industry' is something like the turbine industry (i.e. turbines -- work, moneys are paid for'em; money is also paid for ms-win, hence it too 'in some sense works')
asciilifeform: aa
shrysr: is that not so ? ^
asciilifeform: in reality tho, 'soft industry' is much more similar to pyramid scheme 'mmm' (or whatever its equiv. in your home country) than to turbines, airplanes, reactors
asciilifeform: e.g. microshit, if it were turbine, would be one that turns maybe on odd-numbered wednesdays, and the bulk of effort of the vendor goes into making elaborate excuses for why, and offering service where sends dudes to turn crank manually if you really need rotation to happen
asciilifeform: so, shrysr , indeed 'not so'. items like 'docker' are not honest industrial products, like turbine. instead they are instruments of fraud, where the illiterate buyer is led to happily pay to clean up mess that the software people ~themselves~ had made (and to clean up only half-way, requiring, naturally, the purchase of more pseudo-'product' of same type )
asciilifeform: it is not difficult to come up with example of 'simply don't MAKE the mess.' e.g. therealbitcoin, is built so that ~links statically~. and thereby can be moved to any linux box , of given cpu arch, without any kind of dockerism. and will run.
asciilifeform: can take the executable and put on any x64 linux box, and will run. doesn't care what else is on it, what libs user had, etc
asciilifeform: dockerism, and 'containerization' in general, only seems appealing to folx who showed up after the frauds had already made static linking difficult (if you ask them, will say 'impossible', but it aint impossible -- 100% of my published pieces link statically)
asciilifeform: they made it difficult, so that can then sell 'solution'.
shrysr: I am following you. thats very interesting. evn in my still superficial exploratn of docker - i see that it can easily become a cascading layer of shit, and that dependency updates seem to have to trigger an image update - i.e it did not 'feel' right.
trinque: heh, I'm here 5sec and already having an allergic response !
snsabot: Logged on 2016-08-18 18:32:56 asciilifeform: 'The situation is somewhat akin to a retarded girlfriend trying to flood your apartment, that not only opens all the faucets and stops all the drains, but also takes the "extremely clever" measure of puncturing the water pipes, so she can then preciously inform you that "turning off the faucets won't help" and you must work with her to somehow create a raft out of your widescreen TV so as to navigate the marshy terrain that used to b
asciilifeform: lol trinque
trinque: shrysr: feel aside, the only redeeming thing about "docker" is the atomicity, which can be had for cheaper.
shrysr: how did you mean links statically?
asciilifeform: shrysr: i.e. 1 executable, carrying all dependencies inside it
shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-17#1000261 - most of what i've learnt abt code has been on the side... my job(s) did not really require them. started with writing scripts to automated stuff... and wanting to link together computers in first salt mine as a cluster for simulations.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-17 15:03:30 asciilifeform: in my personal exp., the best folx were people who were drummed out of high school, and worked in warehouses, drove trucks, programmed in spare time.
BingoBoingo: shrysr: That's an honorable path many people who become good at computers take. It's also one that tends to fuel a lot of anger towards the software industry, because as you come to know what a useful computer should be doing for you, the tower of shit will be built to make the doing as uncomfortable as possible, should the doing be possible in the first place.
shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-17#1000296 - When viewed in terms of a larger project (of many products) consisting of varied, interlinked specifications + with wheeling and dealing of all sorts - I've seen this in mech engg / oil and gas projects. The practices are not all necessarily evil, but a good many are pointless. In some cases - it is not something a discerning user happily gives
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-17 15:37:01 asciilifeform: so, shrysr , indeed 'not so'. items like 'docker' are not honest industrial products, like turbine. instead they are instruments of fraud, where the illiterate buyer is led to happily pay to clean up mess that the software people ~themselves~ had made (and to clean up only half-way, requiring, naturally, the purchase of more pseudo-'product' of same type )
shrysr: in to, but bargains are made, and even with the cognizance of the fraud you mentioned among people who make decisions (there are fewer still who would admit to it) - nothing much is done, the projects lumber on like listless buffaloes.
shrysr: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-17#1000300 The magnitude of the lie is surprising to me, presuming I am able to truly understand the magnitude's nature.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-17 15:40:58 asciilifeform: dockerism, and 'containerization' in general, only seems appealing to folx who showed up after the frauds had already made static linking difficult (if you ask them, will say 'impossible', but it aint impossible -- 100% of my published pieces link statically)
asciilifeform: shrysr: dockerism is only the tip of the iceberg. absolutely same can be said for all 'abstraction layers' added by idiots.
snsabot: Logged on 2018-10-25 15:10:38 asciilifeform: when you add compatibility spackle, serious reader is not saved from reading the thing you spackled over -- on the contrary nao he has to read the ~original~ rubbish ~plus~ your spackle, however much it weighs.
asciilifeform: shrysr: like every effective scam, this orchestra consists of very small number of conscious, cynical perpetrators, and a much larger circle of unthinking (and sometimes 'forced', 'salt mine gave orders... i only follow orders') chumps
asciilifeform: shrysr: the objective of the perpetrator is to take his rubbish - that on its own merits, no one in his right mind would want to touch with a barge pole -- and make it seem 'necessary for all work', in the process getting himself relevance (and eventually money)
asciilifeform: shrysr: the algorithm is nearly always the same -- the perp carefully breaks an open source program (typical example, the 'systemd' people) via social engineering 'here, let's all linux distros use this new, exciting thing instead of init'. then proceeds to offer 'fix' which consists of pile of garbage carefully designed to break compatibility of other programs with the old, sane system. then perp goes around 'fixing' these progs.
asciilifeform: in the end, result is that pile of shit is 'glued with broken glass' , like vandals glue posters to light poles.
asciilifeform: and any attempt to remove the vandalism, begins to look painful, the unthinking 'i only program for money, follow orders' types protest any such attempt.
asciilifeform: shrysr: the #t log contains countless examples of this story playing out : 'systemd', 'gcc 5', 'python 3', quite a few others.
shrysr: asciilifeform: are you yourself not forced to accept that rubbish frequently, like the spittoon? What is one to do now that this is known? build each piece of software / hardware yourself? It is not a path many can follow.. ?
asciilifeform: shrysr: believe or not, there are actually plans to make new iron.
asciilifeform: shrysr: in parallel with this, however, folx are digging through the wreckage of opensores ecosystem to find what may be salvageable. i recommend to get familiar with trinque's 'cuntoo' proj, read the discussions that went into it.
asciilifeform: re irons, 'M' is a demonstration that it is possible to actually describe , reproducibly and compactly, a system which will run linux/gcc/various progs.
asciilifeform: ( if you tried to do this with x86, the emulator would be considerably larger item than linux itself. whereas 'M' is ~13kB. )
asciilifeform: shrysr: the spittoon, if you can picture it, in fact describes a ~less~ dire predicament than that of the 'modern' linux user. slim's spittoon 1) contains ~finite~ amt of spittle 2) ergo he is able to swallow it all and eventually barf out
asciilifeform: the 'dockerized' etc. software shitecosystem is a ~continuous~ spittoon.
asciilifeform: 1st step, as exemplified by 'cuntoo', is to make the spittoon finite.
asciilifeform will bbl.