crtdaydreams: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-27#1103947 << "Superior mind-amplifying tools existed and will exist again." do you still have that hope Stani?
crtdaydreams: oh my god. this thread just keeps on giving
crtdaydreams: i might need some water, the salt is drying me out
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-27#1103915 I got around to reading this, and it also greatly amused me.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-27 09:10:49 shinohai: https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4551502 << lulzy "Officers also ruled out death from COVID as he tested negative for the virus."
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-28#1103950 I'd claim I do, even if he doesn't, crtdaydreams, but hope is an evil, so I prefer hopelessness. Regardless, I believe it will happen.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-28 05:29:39 crtdaydreams: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-27#1103947 << "Superior mind-amplifying tools existed and will exist again." do you still have that hope Stani?
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-09-03#1261703 was reflecting on this again and this is apropos "superior mind-amplifying tools" and i still don't quite grok how to effectively read on screen. i mean i do it, long form and everything, but smh it still doesn't feel as "immersive" as a printed equivalent
phf: i used to think it was a question of discipline "oh just close reddit" or whatever, but that was back when i was looking for technological solutions, while people that i knew didn't really do much intellectual work on computer. the "oh just close reddit" guy, when he needed to learn something new programming related would buy a book. now of course he's as twitch driven, "just checking the news" in bed at 1am as everyone else, so it's
phf: not just discipline
phf: it is perhaps that the computing paradigms we work with are not conducive for deep thought, and it takes freaks like mp to just bruteforce it by sheer will
phf: it is the blaise pascal problem of "inability to sit quitely in a room alone", inability to sit quitely in front of a computer screen without doing something, as a baseline of "superior mind-amplifying tools"
phf: because an environment that doesn't compel into mindless action would probably be a 0 baseline for a tool, before one can go into +1 of mind-amplifications. as of right now one starts with -n, before attempting to even get to 0
phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-28#1103959 << two clarifications, for those who don't know, linked line is part of thread, little hand on the right indicates response further down, so there's two clusters, one immediately after the message, and the second cluster is around mp's response
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-28 16:12:29 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-09-03#1261703 was reflecting on this again and this is apropos "superior mind-amplifying tools" and i still don't quite grok how to effectively read on screen. i mean i do it, long form and everything, but smh it still doesn't feel as "immersive" as a printed equivalent
phf: and the second point re "immersive", specific comlaint is the effort required to focus. smh when reading printed i don't feel compelled to go check email, not so when reading on screen, many such interrupts.
verisimilitude: I've long questioned if I will be able to create something better than paper.
verisimilitude: Paper feels more immersive because it obeys all ``messages'' of the physical world.
verisimilitude: We want a bicycle for the mind, but it's far easier to build roadblocks for the mind.
verisimilitude: This is why a more cohesive system is needed, so that everything supports everything rather than supporting a queer subset.
verisimilitude: I think a high-level system should provide data structures and everything else at its base, and everything should use them. Let there be one array type, one singly-linked list type, one doubly-linked list type, and so on.
asciilifeform 'i'ma take short break from replumbing!' checks log...
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-28#1103959 << fwiw asciilifeform still keeps a very bulky 'business sized' laser printer, for this reason. ( at one time, bought a 'dasung paper' monitor , it was a fucking joke, sold immediately )
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-28 16:12:29 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-09-03#1261703 was reflecting on this again and this is apropos "superior mind-amplifying tools" and i still don't quite grok how to effectively read on screen. i mean i do it, long form and everything, but smh it still doesn't feel as "immersive" as a printed equivalent
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-28#1103960 << asciilifeform for yrs nao 100% cured of not only 'check reddit' but 'check news' (other than l0gz) , but cannot brag that it was 'from iron discipline', simple fact is that these 'temptations' became progressively less tempting until became thoroughly uninteresting
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-28 16:15:18 phf: i used to think it was a question of discipline "oh just close reddit" or whatever, but that was back when i was looking for technological solutions, while people that i knew didn't really do much intellectual work on computer. the "oh just close reddit" guy, when he needed to learn something new programming related would buy a book. now of course he's as twitch driven, "just checking the news" in bed at 1am as everyone else, so it's
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-28#1103963 << fwiw asciilifeform's commercial worx actually consist of 'sit quietly in room alone for n hrs / days , then write 5-6 lines '. ( handily also prevents wrist rot... )
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-28 16:20:15 phf: it is the blaise pascal problem of "inability to sit quitely in a room alone", inability to sit quitely in front of a computer screen without doing something, as a baseline of "superior mind-amplifying tools"
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-01-25 19:41:25 asciilifeform: still suspects that 'gold standard' prevention & cure of wrist rot is simply not hammering in MB of txt / d
asciilifeform: this again aint a 'triumph of iron will' but a direct consequence of the chosen problem domain.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-28#1103964 << rarely imho does yer terminal per se 'compel to mindless action'. such action more likely result of boredom ( and you gotta ask, if the thing yer nominally working on is even less interesting than current-day redditardation, maybe oughta automate it..? )
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-28 16:21:56 phf: because an environment that doesn't compel into mindless action would probably be a 0 baseline for a tool, before one can go into +1 of mind-amplifications. as of right now one starts with -n, before attempting to even get to 0
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-28#1103969 << imho 99% of 'win' of paper is that 1) it dun emit light 2) is visible in sun / hammock 3) can freeform scribble on it in margins, b/w lines
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-28 16:46:13 verisimilitude: Paper feels more immersive because it obeys all ``messages'' of the physical world.
asciilifeform tried various 'paper tablet' things, they're all fucking jokes ( i.e. nowhere near resolution of a printed page, no colour , can't flip through'em at 'paper speed', wait for eink fucking snail redraw at 0.5hz , or 2hz with liquishit artifacts all over )
asciilifeform: ... perhaps also oughta add that paper dun need to be plugged into wall, does not run outta battery, has little to fear from water or dust
phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-28#1103976 << ftr check reddit is catch all for "do something else"
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-28 17:40:54 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-28#1103960 << asciilifeform for yrs nao 100% cured of not only 'check reddit' but 'check news' (other than l0gz) , but cannot brag that it was 'from iron discipline', simple fact is that these 'temptations' became progressively less tempting until became thoroughly uninteresting
asciilifeform: right, assumed refs to aggregators / newz www's collectively
phf: well, it's refs to any kind of displacement activity
phf: i'm unsatisfied with "works for me" kind of answers. i too can hyperfocus on a task, and that's perhaps a biological quirk for which we get paid the big bucks. what i am frustrated with is that "check news" is not a problem with physical medium. also was not problem with e.g. dos
verisimilitude: I must have an iron will.
verisimilitude: I do waste time, but still.
phf: and the sop is the opposite-- "switch contexts faster! information super highway at fingertips! oh did you know SOMEBODY TAGGED you on INSTAFACE" etc.
asciilifeform: not using 'instafaces' of whatever kind defo helps
verisimilitude: Get rid of the ``social media'' and phone, phf.
phf: i suspect you're also using a highly tailored linux environment, with as i recall an equivalent of ratpoison
verisimilitude: To whom is that message addressed, phf?
asciilifeform celebrating 20y of 'ratpoison' this yr
phf: tbh i was hoping this conversation will go into a deeper jeff rasking/oberon/single use machines kind of direction :)
verisimilitude: It would've, but phf has me on ignore, right?
jonsykkel: only way to solve imo is dig 100m hole and put there offline work comp with no toys installed
jonsykkel: ned climb ladder to chek reddit or watever
verisimilitude: It's funny how IGNŌRĀMVS, ``we know not'', is used as a noun meaning ``fool'' nowadays.
phf: jonsykkel: that's a self evident solutions, but it is also perhaps ad hoc. i don't have any computers smaller than a laptop, nor do i have any social media accounts, i have a router that mitms ssl and hijacks dns to block a giant list of sites, e.g. new york times or whatever, not even because i open those, but because i don't even want to open them if someone were to send me one "just this one time". i also, like ascii, spend most of
phf: my time with a fullscreen terminal of work code on which i meditate for long periods of time, before i arrive to minimal change. and yet i find "reading on screen" to be mentally demanding activity. i'd maybe like to ultimately know if this is an inherent problem with the medium, problem with interface paradigm, problem with me, or what
phf: *computers smaller than a laptop with screens attache to them, that i didn't solder screen to myself
jonsykkel: isnt it possible that its simply the presence of potential distractions that makes the difference
jonsykkel: knowing in bakc of mind that entering reddit mode requires close to 0 effort
jonsykkel: and when reading physical paper u are incidentaly in a position where this effort is hgiher
phf: i don't think it's the whole of it. as an experiment put a book on your desk, turn off monitor, but wire your spacebar to light up the monitor and be open to reddit or whatever. from my own experience not just a question of effort, but a quesiton of modality also
crtdaydreams: I have been actively thinking about this for the past week, it's excellent that it came up.
phf: but also consider various experiments on information retention between epaper devices and hardcopy medium, where hardcopy had a statistically significany advantage in recall
crtdaydreams: Had no internet out in the sticks, and before bed and in the morning for ~1hr would be reading a book on my phone. It's OLED and I've turned brightness all the way down and night light on. While reading from rooted android w/ Libera ebook reader epubs on phone.
crtdaydreams: Can only read for so long before my eyeballs dry out. So I was thinking about a solution. Browsed some e-readers, Kobo, Kindle, et cetera. All dogshit bloatware.
crtdaydreams: Had some proprietary bullshit slapped ontop of android.
phf: and another point, there's been concious effort to gamify user experience, increase addictive aspect of website interaction, focus on heavy interrupt driven ux (multitasking, but also notifications), etc. while attempts in the opposite direction are fringe gimmicks like various "mindfulness" minimalist shit, like signpost's pidor phone
crtdaydreams: ^ largely result of tossing away "do one thing and do it well" padagrim imo
verisimilitude: UNIX is irrelevant here, crtdaydreams.
crtdaydreams: verisimilitude: such a padagrim needn't be related to UNIX.
jonsykkel: dunno, apropriately enuf i hav found even turning off irc monitor helps with attention presumably cuz moving hand to onoff button is significant enought increase in efort
verisimilitude: I'd sooner argue it's an effect of adding digital characteristics to an analog device.
verisimilitude: It does when quoted, crtdaydreams.
verisimilitude: I waste most of my time, but not all of it, and so I still manage to do things.
crtdaydreams: verisimilitude: well look at current e-readers for example. The damn things try to be a browser, ~IoT Device~ (whatever that means), webstore, advertising platform, everything *but* a decent e-reader.
verisimilitude: I don't own one.
verisimilitude: I won't use electronics where they may be avoided.
verisimilitude: None of my coffee paraphernalia needs electricity, as an example.
verisimilitude: I've read a single ePub book, in Emacs, because I couldn't purchase a physical copy without using Amazon.
crtdaydreams: That's fair. Each to their own.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-28#1104014 << asciilifeform strongly suspect that 1) light-emitting displays 2) scrolling -- suxx
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-28 18:35:20 phf: but also consider various experiments on information retention between epaper devices and hardcopy medium, where hardcopy had a statistically significany advantage in recall
asciilifeform: possibly mostly the latter
asciilifeform has long-running habit of 'if $document needs to be properly loaded into head, better print it, even if has to be laboriously spiral-bound' etc
crtdaydreams has been thinking of investing in a decent laser printer
crtdaydreams: inkjet lifecycle goes something like this: buy printer -> print a couple things -> ink dries out -> clean 4x times -> print a couple things -> run out of ink -> can't buy ink || ink costs 75% of new printer -> buy printer
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-28#1104018 << imho good % of 'the remedies dunwork' is on acct of simple fact that no mechanism can fix the situation where yer work is so loathesome that yer hindbrain is actively trying to run away from it
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-28 18:38:41 phf: and another point, there's been concious effort to gamify user experience, increase addictive aspect of website interaction, focus on heavy interrupt driven ux (multitasking, but also notifications), etc. while attempts in the opposite direction are fringe gimmicks like various "mindfulness" minimalist shit, like signpost's pidor phone
asciilifeform: crtdaydreams: throw out the ink printer, is a traditional 'razor blade' scam
crtdaydreams: asciilifeform: I know. Wondering what brand of laser to get that will actually *work* with linux.
asciilifeform: even the most rundown thrift shop laser is over9000x cheaper per pg ( and faster )
asciilifeform: crtdaydreams: you'll want either a ( likely 20+y old ) postscript-compat. machine, or will have to set up 'print server' box to emulate one
asciilifeform: ... or get the kind which can read e.g. pdf from thumb drive and print that.
crtdaydreams: Ah. Right.
crtdaydreams thinks 'print server' on spare unix boxen would be the way to go
asciilifeform must return to the pipes, will bbl
phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-28#1104038 << i've seen you make this point already, but also consider that work by its very nature is a loathsome affair, even when "take pride" and "born for it". the anarchist bob black has a quote that i like, that work starts when play becomes compulsory. never the less a lathe machinist slacks by shooting shit with coworkers, or drinking beer in the break room, not e.g. going to
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-28 18:54:42 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-28#1104018 << imho good % of 'the remedies dunwork' is on acct of simple fact that no mechanism can fix the situation where yer work is so loathesome that yer hindbrain is actively trying to run away from it
phf: a different lathe to work on hobby project, or reading "lathe machinist daily" magazine :p
asciilifeform: phf: imho 'loathesome' does, luckily, come in a spectrum.
asciilifeform: phf: incidentally not long ago met (was buying goodies from) machinist who in fact had lathe at home (what precisely made on it -- do not know, but mentioned model aircraft as interest)
asciilifeform does not imagine that this is typical, however, of machinists
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-28#1104001 << asciilifeform has encountered folx who have (often, msdos) nic-less lappies for writing (human-readable) text on
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-28 18:04:47 phf: tbh i was hoping this conversation will go into a deeper jeff rasking/oberon/single use machines kind of direction :)
asciilifeform fwiw in fact wrote 1st draft of pest sprec on an 'alphasmart'. little toy wordprocessor which runs on 'aa' batteries and worx in sunlight.
asciilifeform: is a pain tho, dunno if will use much again. ( 4ln x 40 character screen, and all of the text had to be remassaged on ordinary comp, unsurprisingly )
asciilifeform: *spec
asciilifeform: ( see also )
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-04-17 asciilifeform: 'alphasmart' had a terrible keyboard, similar to late '90s crapple. it was originally made for schoolchildren. but it remains cult classic among certain folx.
asciilifeform: these, reportedly, were at one time inflicted on schoolchildren, and often enuff can be had for next to nothing
asciilifeform used for the 'sunlight' and 'runs on 1 set of batteries for months' aspect, however, rather than 'not distracts'
asciilifeform at one time for this purpose used ancient 'palm pilot' with the add-on kbd
asciilifeform: afaik all such devices suffer from similar ills tho -- 'dollar store'-grade kbd, microscopic screens, and, of course, not being emacs (nor a raskin-style ergonomic muscle car)
asciilifeform: the 'msdos lappy' approach may work for folx who dun care re sunlight or being far from mains socket.
crtdaydreams: Is there a big enough market for say, a minimal gentoo running on ARM smashed into a thin form factor w/ e-ink display and act primarily as an e-reader but also can plug kbd in and have typewriter
crtdaydreams: run e.g. modified zathura and hacked x11
crtdaydreams: have support to ftp/rsync/syncthing etc. files to (and from) boxen
crtdaydreams wonders if possible to get eink disp. running at a reasonable enuff refreshrate that "just worx"
crtdaydreams: requires further research
crtdaydreams: s/big enough market/enough interest/
crtdaydreams: ouch. 450ms.
crtdaydreams: yeah nah, I see what you mean. doubtful that it'll be worthwhile anytime soon
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-28#1104069 << having spent considerable dough on various experiments in this direction -- asciilifeform presently satisfied that it aint
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-05-28 23:38:42 crtdaydreams: wonders if possible to get eink disp. running at a reasonable enuff refreshrate that "just worx"
asciilifeform: e.g. the much-hyped 'dasung' -- garbage imho
asciilifeform: ( yes, 'you can play doom' on it. deceptive marketing, tho -- you dun notice liquishit artifacts from failed erasure when playing that doom )
asciilifeform: when static text tho -- will notice. and ugh.
crtdaydreams: fr?
asciilifeform: hm?
crtdaydreams: looking further into it just seems like another gimmick
crtdaydreams: fr == for real
verisimilitude: Say, asciilifeform and others, consider using Emacs' dabbrev-expand command. I've bound it to S-space. It saves me some effort, on average, I think.
asciilifeform: crtdaydreams: 'eink' is currently a monopoly. all the various boxes use more or less same part, in diff. dimensions, afaik
crtdaydreams: asciilifeform: evident by the proprietary shitware they call "eink driver"
verisimilitude: I should install a foot pedal and bind it to the command.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i use 'autocomplete' and 'popup'
crtdaydreams: verisimilitude: is newspeak zoomer language getting too tedious to decipher?
asciilifeform: ( bound to tab )
verisimilitude: Yes, crtdaydreams.
verisimilitude: I loathe ebonics.
crtdaydreams: lolk I'll try to articulate
verisimilitude: Don't try, do.
crtdaydreams: verisimilitude: I was about to s/try//
crtdaydreams: reminds me of george carlin on soft language
asciilifeform: who on what..?
asciilifeform: snore
asciilifeform: tedious thread
crtdaydreams: asciilifeform: rather than snore, protip?
asciilifeform: crtdaydreams: expand nonstandard lolcatisms