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gregorynyssa: trinque: here are the logs: https://pastebin.com/raw/pDB1Uu9s
asciilifeform up to ears in heathen work atm; will quite likely be the very last to join the festivities on ratbox net
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-19 13:56:32 asciilifeform: i suspect that very few dentists enjoy, in the usual sense of the word, drilling teeth.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-21#1040295 << plz refrain from shitting on the park benches, vex. this particular free-for-all is temporary, when we have smoothly oiled relay setup i'ma make this node strictly for self + folx who explicitly request login, and you'll need your own
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-21 00:43:27 vex: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-mTqbovmCI
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-19 11:53:05 signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1039960 << the flatness here supposes equals among freely-associating peers, not all-comers.
asciilifeform will bbl.
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: reading logs and don't get the relay setup via ratbox. read the dox as best as I could, and what I gather is ratbox relay connects to other relay and can mirror channels?
thestringpuller: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-21#1040299 << this channel seems to be a pandemonium fortress against the shit posting on the rest of the internet, pretty sure my brain has been melted from being exposed to zoomers
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-21 10:06:12 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-21#1040295 << plz refrain from shitting on the park benches, vex. this particular free-for-all is temporary, when we have smoothly oiled relay setup i'ma make this node strictly for self + folx who explicitly request login, and you'll need your own
thestringpuller: also could not find in logs, but how does asciilifeform navigate logs so gracefully? you link through it like master filing clerk.
trinque: gregorynyssa: mind pasting your whole config for me with the passwords removed?
trinque: I notice the logs you posted mention 127.0.0.1, not sure how that's coming in.
asciilifeform: trinque: btw i got 'rat' going for smoke test, but not yet ready to swap inplace of 'unreal' -- trying to figure out why it takes ~15 extra seconds to log into vs 'unreal'
trinque: asciilifeform: if you find that unreal is better, I'm happy to swap mine btw
asciilifeform: trinque: 'ratbox' seems considerably simpler (for 1 thing, no forced sslistics) so would prefer to work w/ that. but still unraveling some of the knobs there
asciilifeform: trinque: ideally would have something even smaller, w/ all the superfluous trad-irc functionality (opers, elaborate ban mechanics, many other things) snipped. but for now this is i suspect the closest thing.
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-21#1040312 << maybe we can ask suckless.org if they have any recommendations.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-06-21 15:07:23 asciilifeform: trinque: ideally would have something even smaller, w/ all the superfluous trad-irc functionality (opers, elaborate ban mechanics, many other things) snipped. but for now this is i suspect the closest thing.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-06-21 14:07:54 trinque: gregorynyssa: mind pasting your whole config for me with the passwords removed?
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-21#1040308 << I think the mention of 127.0.0.1 comes from my attempt to connect to my own "ratbox" using irssi(1).
snsabot: Logged on 2021-06-21 14:08:21 trinque: I notice the logs you posted mention 127.0.0.1, not sure how that's coming in.
gregorynyssa: identify
gregorynyssa: Sorry, that last message was a mistake.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-21#1040313 << i doubt that any existing proggy is exactly it, afaik no one to date suggested '1 user -- 1 relay' variant of irc. (but if anyone knows of a precedent, plox to write in..)
snsabot: Logged on 2021-06-21 15:27:26 gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-21#1040312 << maybe we can ask suckless.org if they have any recommendations.
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-21#1040321 << especially not with eventual RSA integration and support for content-based addressing.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-06-21 16:11:50 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-21#1040313 << i doubt that any existing proggy is exactly it, afaik no one to date suggested '1 user -- 1 relay' variant of irc. (but if anyone knows of a precedent, plox to write in..)
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: atm under discussion is simply subset of ancient irc.
asciilifeform: i.e. w/ 0 crypto.
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-21#1040325 << such a subset is direly necessary because the protocol is a mess.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-06-21 16:34:02 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: atm under discussion is simply subset of ancient irc.
gregorynyssa: last year I read The Book of IRC (1999) by Alex Charalabidis. it contained some useful information about the protocol.
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: it aint simply 'a mess' but... see thread.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-06-18 14:02:20 asciilifeform: ( my take on this summarized )
asciilifeform: and specifically this.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-06-18 14:33:55 asciilifeform: no 'channels', just nets.
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: i rec to read entire 18 june log, if you want to make sense of all of this.
gregorynyssa: asciilifeform: alright I read it again.
gregorynyssa: so you want a minimal viable product, basically.
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: not simply 'minimal', but actually decentralized.
asciilifeform: no channels, no ops, no 'kicks', 'bans', and so forth.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-06-18 18:35:02 asciilifeform: the troo p2p topology i propose removes all kindsa fundamentally palace-flavoured concepts -- 'joining', 'kicking', 'banning' -- and replaces simply w/ freedom of association, i.e. peering & unpeering.
gregorynyssa: I like the idea of "one network, one channel" and "one user, one relay." it cuts through the prematurely imposed 1990s abstractions.
gregorynyssa: https://blog.initprogram.com/2010/10/14/a-quick-basic-primer-on-the-irc-protocol/ << recommended reading for those who haven't yet seen this.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-06-16 13:47:31 asciilifeform: shinohai: the ~proper~ way to do it would be to wait for a '103' message from server when connecting, before emitting a JOIN. but was in a hurry.
asciilifeform: at any rate decentralized irc requires strictly three commands : USER, NICK, PRIVMSG. all else superfluous.
asciilifeform: (for bonus , would mandate constant argument for PRIVMSG. lose the illusion of private messages in plaintext network, if you want seekricy, pgpize the message)
snsabot: Logged on 2021-06-16 10:23:16 asciilifeform: the authenticity and privacy 'promises' of whatever irc net are an illusion, and what better way to remind people of it than by replacing all auth with a toy lock w/ plastic key.
asciilifeform: ... treat the net as if it were shortwave.
gregorynyssa: asciilifeform: have we figured out already how the "auth" feature of "ratbox" works at the protocol-level?
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: notyet, i suspect it's a salted hash at most
asciilifeform: (at worst, pw simply goes over the wire)
shinohai: https://git.eta.st/eta/nea-2019 <<< I still think this thing could do just USER, NICK, PRIVMSG with all the ugly bits carved out - iffn' I ever get time to resurrect.
asciilifeform: shinohai: looks heavy
shinohai: unrealircd not heavy at all?
asciilifeform: anyways to complete the thread: oughta support, optionally, two more hypothetical commands, PEER (ip) (pw) and UNPEER (io). self-explanatory. but can do w/out these, edit configs with hands.
asciilifeform: shinohai: all the traditional ircdisms are heavy; is sorta what this thrd about
asciilifeform: *UNPEER (ip)
gregorynyssa: http://suckless.org/rocks/ << on the client side, this page has some decent recommendations.
gregorynyssa: my favorites are irssi(1) and ii(1).
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: i use irssi fwiw. but again not what the thrd is about, i dun recall anyone looking for rec for new irc client.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-06-16 13:47:31 asciilifeform: shinohai: the ~proper~ way to do it would be to wait for a '103' message from server when connecting, before emitting a JOIN. but was in a hurry.
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: 'unreal' won't accept a JOIN before it emits some crapola ack'ing USER
asciilifeform: (unlike e.g. fleanode)
snsabot: Logged on 2021-06-21 17:00:33 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: 'unreal' won't accept a JOIN before it emits some crapola ack'ing USER
gregorynyssa: I never quite understood why the IRC protocol needed PING, given that TCP is already stateful.
shinohai has crazy idea "NICK" would be unnecessary if user had, say, RSA key in a wot directory and would only "see" messages from those in said wot
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: ostensibly to kill lag-zombies
asciilifeform: shinohai: there's no hygienic way to bolt rsaism onto trad irc, this was iirc discussed to death
asciilifeform: nor is it really needed there. when you need authenticity or seekricy, use external pgptron.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-06-21 17:16:15 shinohai: has crazy idea "NICK" would be unnecessary if user had, say, RSA key in a wot directory and would only "see" messages from those in said wot
asciilifeform: when you're using tcp, fact is that your box 'sees' EVERYTHING people throw at it, and invoking rsaism simply makes it easier to ddos your cpu
asciilifeform: (verifying a sig is expensive)
asciilifeform: it continues to surprise asciilifeform that people think of this operation as 'free'
shinohai: Fair point.
asciilifeform: (for that matter, this isn't even a problem peculiar to tcpism, but exists in the general case. the problem here is that you've already given 'allcomer' a chunk of memory for tcp statefulness, and only ~after~ this demanded rsa op.. )
asciilifeform: i'ma repeat (because apparently not erryone grasped) -- what's needed from network is simply reliable transport and spam-proofing (i.e. only the machines which mutually agreed to communicate, can do so) ; errything else belongs outside of protocol, in text layer.
gregorynyssa: asciilifeform: and UDP upon IPv4 is satisfactory?
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: hypothetically solves ddosism (you can build, hypothetically, a device which forwards only validly-signed packets at GB/s)
asciilifeform: but is entirely separate problem, imho to roll it into 'better irc' is a way to ensure that neither of'em happens this decade
gregorynyssa: "you can build, hypothetically, a device which..." << that is what I was thinking. thanks for confirming.
verisimilitude: That just moves the expensive validation cost to a second machine, right?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: how?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: or i suppose you mean the packet validator. then yes, but idea is that you have custom ic which can do it at max line rate, rather than pc.
verisimilitude: That's as figured, then.
verisimilitude: I've read before of some TCP which manage to avoid allocating memory at connection handshake.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-02-05 17:24:20 asciilifeform: let's do for lulz some arithm. i have a linux-3.16.70.tar handy, and inside 47452 files. now, a modexp (2048bit!) on ye olde koch-rsa eats 0.639s on my machine. so that'd be ~8.42 hours. not counting the hashing (my timing example did not include hashing, had pre-baked operands).
snsabot: (trilema) 2019-09-06 asciilifeform: if you actually want to verify 4096bit rsa packets at line rate, tho, yer stuck baking silicon.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-06-21 18:41:25 verisimilitude: I've read before of some TCP which manage to avoid allocating memory at connection handshake.
asciilifeform: tcp demands state.
verisimilitude: It used some hack to delay it.
verisimilitude: Then again, I believe I was reading about it with regards to a serious flaw it had.
verisimilitude: It was some Linux option.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: observe that none of the 'countermeasures' listed actually work worth a shit. for ~fundamental~ reason, that being that yer giving away 'something for nothing to all-comers'.
verisimilitude: I seem to recall the method generated the codes from smaller seeds, to avoid explicitly storing them.
verisimilitude: So only after the ACK would resources be reserved.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: 'syn cookie'. costs you cpu, and still allows attacker to eat 2byte of yer bw for each 1byte he sends (you're still answering the bullshit SYNs)
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: and (as you seem to recall) all the extant implementations are broken in various interesting ways.
asciilifeform: because -- complex.
asciilifeform: (and because 'errything is broken'..)
verisimilitude: A purely UDP system can also be overwhelmed, however.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: only in the sense that your pipe has finite bw
asciilifeform: has nuffin to do w/ any particularity of udp
verisimilitude: A system on top of the Internet that doesn't need any particular address does avoid the dogpiling issue.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: the signed-packets thing. you have N entryways that are all interchangeable for the purpose of sending in a packet. all admit strictly validly-signed packets.
asciilifeform: anyways this is rather diff. topic vs. the irc thread.
verisimilitude: Say, what's the thought on flood-fill networks, asciilifeform?
verisimilitude: Alright.
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