billymg: asciilifeform: i wrote a simple btc network crawler that uses watchglass for node probing and dumps the results into a postgres db. it's been running since yesterday afternoon, here are some stats so far: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=yTLT
billymg: my reason for doing so was because both bitnodes and coin.dance stopped tracking trb with their crawlers. i used to be able to check from time to time to see how many trb nodes are out there
billymg: next step is to create a simple www dashboard to display these stats
asciilifeform: billymg: neato. ftr if you recall i wrote 'watchglass' specifically because heathen crawlers deliberately ignore trb
asciilifeform: billymg: i rec to look at the 'peers' knob, can use it to recurse.
billymg: asciilifeform: yep, that's what it's doing
billymg: i started with a seed list of the nodes that you poll in this channel, and all the rest have been grabbed from running peers recursively
billymg: i need to rewrite some of it though, it's not doing it in the most efficient manner currently
asciilifeform: billymg: how didja handle the extra byte in the header from prb nodes ?
asciilifeform: (specifically in 'peers' cmd)
billymg: asciilifeform: hrm, i guess i didn't...
asciilifeform: it makes for illusion of '0 peers' when polling'em
billymg: perhaps that's why so many are returning 0 peers
billymg: and probably why after ~16hrs i'm only up to ~1700 nodes
snsabot: Logged on 2020-03-01 14:38:20 asciilifeform: shinohai: this btw confirmed. i did experiment, if one sends that extra byte, prb noades do in fact send addrs. (and yes some of'em ipv6, have to be thrown out)
asciilifeform: billymg: of course, if you only want to poll a continuous chain of trb -- the classic behaviour is desirable
asciilifeform: the extra byte is only of concern if you want to poll 'all nodes on planet3' such as are on public net
billymg: asciilifeform: awesome, thanks, i'll look into that
billymg: so currently only works with "TRB Compat" species?
asciilifeform: iirc whaack was making something like billymg's thing. whaack what happened to that..?
asciilifeform: billymg: the 'peers' cmd ? correct
billymg: asciilifeform: yeah, for 'peers' cmd -- good to know
billymg: asciilifeform: i think whaack was working on a replacement block explorer. this thing i'm building is much simpler, just a network crawler
shinohai: wb billymg
billymg: shinohai: ty, was caught up with some fiat work for a bit
shinohai: Nice work on the crawler, having it dump to postgres db extremely useful.
billymg: thanks, yeah and i plan to publish the patch for it once the code is where i want it. i'm also doing this as part of what will be a recruitment effort
snsabot: (alethepedia) 2021-04-26 billymg: i also created a chan at #billymg a couple days ago, and i'm working on a website to do some recruiting (it will present itself as a more welcoming on-ramp to V and TRB than the logs), hopefully attract some of the not complete morons
billymg: seeing the total trb node count creates a "number go up" metric that might incentivize more people to run trb nodes
billymg: idea is to have a www with these stats and some intro guides/overviews for V and TRB
billymg: and the wot, etc.
billymg: whether or not it actually accomplishes anything, tbd, but i personally want the stats published somewhere so it's worth me doing it
asciilifeform: billymg: do ping jurov re this effort, whenever he returns from sea. imho would be a++ use for some of the tbf piggy.
asciilifeform: billymg: while on subj : i'm curious , what your gadget outputs for e.g. SELECT * from nodes where jumpers='0x1' and user_agent not like '%therealbitcoin.org%'
asciilifeform: i.e. what useragents correspond to trb-compat. but NOT trb per se.
billymg: asciilifeform: ack re: pinging jurov. will do
asciilifeform: billymg: ty!
asciilifeform: this is iirc similar to what i found last yr. the 0.8.x is plausible, these were afaik the last trb-compat (in the header flag bits sense) heathen clients. the 0.10.x/0.11.x tho is, i suspect, camouflaged something-elses -- these do NOT present trb-like flags normally at all
asciilifeform suspects that all kinds of custom proggies in the wild present heathen-like useragent, simply to fool crawlers and whatever other heathen peers
billymg: asciilifeform: so clients can spoof jumpers as easily as they can spoof user agent strings?
asciilifeform: billymg: of course. see src.
asciilifeform: it's simply a bitmask sent in the hello packet.
asciilifeform: see 'species_heuristic' routine.
billymg: oh, lol, right. it's right there in watchglass.conf
billymg: asciilifeform: have you found a heuristic then that is not spoof-able for determining trb-compat?
asciilifeform: billymg: there are of course other obvious indicators of prbism -- the sending of garbage (from trb pov) commands; or the extra byte thing mentioned earlier
asciilifeform: billymg: the 'proof of the pudding is in the eating' -- if a peer behaves ~precisely~ like trb, then for all practical purposes it is indistinguishable. so far not found any that do this but not advertised as trb useragent.
asciilifeform: but will admit that did not search exhaustively or even really systematically.
asciilifeform: billymg: really 'trb heuristic' has to be about ~avoiding~ certain behaviours -- e.g. if peer triggers 'malleus' -- it aint trb. etc
billymg: asciilifeform: ah, interesting. now i'm wondering what the crawler could do to coax a node into sending a 'heathen command' in a reasonable amount of time
asciilifeform: billymg: normally needs no coaxing, it happens within first 10s or so
verisimilitude: What does PRB expand to?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: was iirc originally mp's term -- expanded variously, 'public relations bitcoin', coupla other decodings
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: it refers to the 'official' client post-2012ish, when project was hijacked by wreckers
verisimilitude: Alright; my first guess included ``phony'', but this doesn't handle the R.
billymg: 'power rangers bitcoin' another iirc -- personally i like the public relations bitcoin expansion
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: trb, in contrast, is a branch of the orig. client maintained by asciilifeform & co. ('co' is currently not large at all..)
verisimilitude: I take it the only reason PRB wouldn't damn Bitcoin is due to the continued use of other clients, right?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: the answer to this q is not definitively known (to asciilifeform.) i doubt that 'only trb saved': its public footprint was never large. and, there do exist compatible clients, evidently -- is what the survey thrds are largely about
asciilifeform: much of what is publicly 'known' re the bitcoin network factually consists of disinfo, spread by professional disinfo artists
asciilifeform: the most trivial example, already cited by billymg -- the various public node crawlers hide -- as a matter of policy -- the existence of trb.
verisimilitude: It's the same way when articles mention ``open source'' and never Free Software. Some people could get curious.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: btw this switcheroo was engineered by a specific judas goat -- eric s. raymond
asciilifeform: he was paid 30 pieces-of-silver^H^H^H^H^Hmillion$ for it, too
snsabot: Logged on 2021-02-12 20:15:20 asciilifeform: at any rate, very happy to hear that he sold bitcoin. hope to live to see him beg for spare change like eric raymond .
asciilifeform: last i knew -- did not, sadly, hang, unlike the old judas, quite yet
verisimilitude: ESR is strange, in that I respect his soft opinions more than those technical; it's usually reversed.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: the ideal judas, arguably, is one who has 95% 'good respectable material'
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in unrelated lulz : given 'gpu shortage of 2021', prices 2-3x (or moar) vs 'peacetime' commonplace. and nao hilarious scamology : EMPTY BOXES from videocard selling for coupla hundy $ !
asciilifeform: presumably these are purchased by scammers, to repackage a card with embrittled solder joins (by year+ of shitcoin mining) as 'new' and sell for 600-700 etc
asciilifeform can't think of any equally-plausible hypothesis re why empty crates suddenly worth moar than the card itself was in '19
verisimilitude: I'd think fools not paying attention would be the cause.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: could be part of it
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-03#1035266 << this is amazing. never knew this story.
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-03#1035264 << was "Cathedral and Bazaar" the main publication where the betrayal was committed?
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-03 14:08:31 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: btw this switcheroo was engineered by a specific judas goat -- eric s. raymond
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-03#1035261 << I had not believed in this conspiracy of experts giving purposely bad technical advice until you and Popescu came along and proved its existence
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-03 13:59:28 asciilifeform: much of what is publicly 'known' re the bitcoin network factually consists of disinfo, spread by professional disinfo artists
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: re: esr -- was not only 1 publication, but a lengthy campaign of artful misdirection
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-03#1035280 << the unfortunate thing is that, to 100% grasp that the wreckers -- are wreckers, requires to read and grasp the src. and have good model of classical bitcoin in yer head. something that most users did not and prolly will not rise to.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-03 14:54:54 gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-03#1035261 << I had not believed in this conspiracy of experts giving purposely bad technical advice until you and Popescu came along and proved its existence
asciilifeform: without such grasp, it's a contest of pr, of religions, and the folx printing the glossy mags, blathering on tv, etc. normally -- if not 'win', then at least hold ground enough to harvest an endless procession of morons and make life substantially moar complicated even for non-idiots
whaack: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-03#1035219 < project got put to the side for a while. But today I pick up where I left off
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-03 12:19:15 asciilifeform: iirc whaack was making something like billymg's thing. whaack what happened to that..?
asciilifeform: wb whaack !
asciilifeform: whaack: lemme know if need help w/ protocol mechanics, etc
whaack: will do
asciilifeform: (imho the wg src is enuff of ref material for subj. but could be mistaken )
gregorynyssa: I was hoping to build something like your Watchglass as well.
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: imho is a trivial proggy (i baked it from my original log bot, plus a little glue to speak basic trb protocol)
gregorynyssa: asciilifeform: IIRC, you plan to write a complete P2P engine (node) for Bitcin from scratch down the road, is that right?
whaack: looks like my node caught up based on your last !poll... is my node actually doing a service if it struggles to keep up to what seems to be the longest chain?
asciilifeform: not attempted, of yet, 'whole node', this needs full ffa for the crypto side, aint there yet.
asciilifeform has pov that 'if writing replacement client, it is to have ZERO external linkages'
gregorynyssa: asciilifeform: when that day comes, you will be a hero.
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: to 3 people, lol
verisimilitude: No, I'd also be interested, so four.
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: i'll readily admit that did not hurry to do this (and still not hurrying) because the orig. trb ~mostly worx~ for all practical purpose
asciilifeform: i've been able to keep it going (i.e. eats fresh blox from planet, sends/receives coinz) w/ trivial changes (most recently, the wedge fix w/ aid of mod6)
asciilifeform: now, otoh, there are things that the asinine architecture of classical trb makes very difficult (e.g., reliable iron walletism; crawling of world tx history; fast but 100% solid block verification) that one could achieve w/ a new one
asciilifeform: problem is that the folx who stand to make substantial dough from such a thing, aint about to pay a broken cent
gregorynyssa: for the node, you plan to use mmap(2) intensively and leverage the huge address-space of x64, is that right?
gregorynyssa: give each block its own permanent virtual memory-address.
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: for the tx db -- aha. see the 'cryostat' demo, is self-explanatory imho.
asciilifeform: doesn't rely on x86 per se, necessarily. mmapism worx on all archs that have any kind of reasonable mmu.
gregorynyssa: this is bound to save a lot of code compared to TRB.
asciilifeform: 'correct notation is worth 80 iq pts'(tm)
asciilifeform: would run in o(1), too.
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-03#1035316 << was that from Kenneth Iverson? I recall that he said something similar.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-03 15:21:46 asciilifeform: 'correct notation is worth 80 iq pts'(tm)
gregorynyssa: APL also made liberal use of memory-mapping.
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: i wasn't aware that apl defined implementation detail on the level of mmu ?
gregorynyssa: not the language itself, but the implementations provided such features.
asciilifeform: eh pretty much all posix-adjacent world provides.
asciilifeform: (in microshit land, dysfunctional, but even there)
gregorynyssa: mmap(2) represents one of the most decisive arguments for why 64 bit computing is desirable or even necessary
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: dunno about you, but asciilifeform routinely works with data sets which don't come remotely near to fitting in 4GB.
asciilifeform: so i dun see the 'debate' re 'is 64b address necessary'
gregorynyssa: asciilifeform: only a fraction of "big data" work actually requires holding the entire dataset in memory, though.
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: entirely aware.
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: in principle can operate on just about any dataset with just about arbitrarily short address width. but yer then stuck emulating a wider cpu in software, via banking and similar hacks.
verisimilitude: How surprising that UNIX provides a decent interface; it only had to take it from Multics.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i gotta add that mmapism would not even be necessary on a 3rdlaw-compliant machine.
verisimilitude: I've read naught concerning memory-mapping and APL.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: there could easily be a language where data is presumed to be persistent, and no explicit concept of writing to disk exists. but apl afaik never was such.
asciilifeform: ( there perhaps was a variant where this was the case, given that aplism coexisted with prevalence of magnetic core memories. but was there such a variant? )
asciilifeform: ^ q for aplists.
verisimilitude: APL's model throws away results afterwards.
verisimilitude: Results may be printed, stored to variable, passed along, and little else.
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-03#1035337 << I was under the impression they had this. will check later.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-03 15:32:58 asciilifeform: ( there perhaps was a variant where this was the case, given that aplism coexisted with prevalence of magnetic core memories. but was there such a variant? )
verisimilitude: There's the concept of a workspace, but I don't use them.
asciilifeform: before this escapes :
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-02#1035174 << not sure why to suppose that this was for any other than electoral pr purposes
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-02 18:18:42 gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-02#1035078 << Bush Jr distanced himself from his New England heritage, identified with the South, and converted to Southern-centric denomination. Jeb Bush married a Hispanic Catholic.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-02#1035176 << of what would you say consists the heritage such as was not-passed-down ?
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-02 18:19:47 gregorynyssa: not saying you are wrong. wealth + influence are indeed being passed down. but in this case, the Yankee (ie. WASP) heritage is not.
verisimilitude: Those comments on the third law are nearly a decade old now.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-02#1035185 << my logic here is from first principles. take 2 places where there ~was~ a genuine Troo 100% swap-out of elites : 1790s fr; 1920s ru. quite detectable to naked eye, the effects. in usa at no point such a thing took place afaik.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-02 18:25:45 gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-02#1035174 << what sparked my curiosity was your suggestion (maybe I misinterpreted) that there might be a secret community of very pure Yankees at the top of society.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: indeed. observe that nothing pertinent in fact , afaik, happened, in entire decade.
verisimilitude: Gee, I've started my work, at the least. Just wait, any year now.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-02#1035187 << 'invisible' positions. not 100% undetectable tho, no one cancelled 'skull & bones', 'bohemian grove', masons still have a palatial structure in washington which dwarfs the usg buildings, etc
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-02 18:27:46 gregorynyssa: given lack of Yankees on Supreme Court and other visible positions of authority (incl. academia) the possibility of this pure Yankee community secretly existing would be entertaining.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-02#1035191 << entirely aware. fwiw i did not get the fundamental idea from him.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-02 18:30:14 gregorynyssa: he gets his religious history wrong in many places, such as his reference to the Munster Rebellion, and confusion of Quakerism with Mainline Protestantism.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-02#1035194 << still, more or less, happening, 'under different sauce'
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-02 18:41:42 gregorynyssa: they engaged in the shaming of adulterers. they burned witches.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-02#1035195 << current lizards impose the evolution, but Humans Exempt(tm)(r) doctrine.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-02 18:43:46 gregorynyssa: they believed in Creationism. they would abhor modern psychology/psychiatry b/c of its Behavioralist and Darwinist underpinnings.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-08-12 13:46:36 asciilifeform: the folx butthurt from darwin, split into 2 camps -- 'it didn't happen, see here in bible' and 'it happened, but doesn't matter'
asciilifeform: hmm another regex bug??
asciilifeform all caught up, finally, on l0gz
verisimilitude: A decent solution to these hard problems, asciilifeform, is to use the excesses of hardware to avoid them. If I restricted a system to hundreds of megabytes, say, I could easily take inefficient backups constantly, without needing to solve the real issue.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: if you recall, this is what the lispm people actually did
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: they endlessly wrote 'worlds' to tape
asciilifeform: (i.e. memory dump of paused machine)
verisimilitude: I wasn't aware.
asciilifeform: this, turns out, is not a substitute for actually solving it. illustrated rather well by e.g. this incident
snsabot: Logged on 2020-07-03 20:25:12 asciilifeform: this sounds great until becomes habit. iirc was why phf never published the orig logger, he found that it was not reducible to a linear src snapshot
verisimilitude: Similarly, a good way to take advantage of fast and reliable enough networks is to make each message small enough to likely fit in a single packet.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: pretty tight space if including e.g. rsa signatures.
verisimilitude: I'd rather have something limited which works perfectly, than what I've currently.
asciilifeform: (specifically, udp weighing >512b is only variably reliable)
asciilifeform: arguably very separate subj tho, from orig thrd.
feedbot: http://thimbron.com/2021/05/alethepedia-improvements/ << Thimbron -- Alethepedia Improvements
verisimilitude: Elision can help with this, which is my plan. Mine encoding scheme uses four octets for a word and punctuation.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: compression schemes cannot solve '10 pounds of shit for a 8 pound bag' in the general case.
verisimilitude: I know, although people act as if compressing something inefficient were acceptable.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: are you old enuff to remember 'doublespace' ?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: point is not simply that compression costs cpu cycles. but that in some % of cases inescapably (and provably) ~must~ result in ~larger~ payload.
verisimilitude: Oh, that page requires very new TLS.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i'ma summarize. 'doublespace' was a proggy which misleadingly claimed to 'double yer hdd' by transparently compressing/decompressing files
verisimilitude: I don't generally think of Elision as mere compression, but it does use more space when a word is smaller than an index.
asciilifeform: or if a string aint in the index at all
verisimilitude: Amusingly, an archive link isn't causing me grief for once.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i recall this piece.
verisimilitude: I entirely rewrote it days ago.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: you may find interesting that in world of mechanized ~music~ in '80s-'90s there appeared solutions falling in erry place in the delineated spectrum
asciilifeform: original 'midi' format contained strictly notes/temporal hints
asciilifeform: later on, however, various folx came out with 'patch' formats (e.g. 'MOD') where the actual instrument samples were carried along, prefixed to the note sequence
asciilifeform: so that composer was not constrained to the predefined instruments, and could use e.g. his dog
asciilifeform: both of these technologies largely forgotten, music commonly nao is distributed as a waveform and not usefully rearrangeable by end 'consumer'.
snsabot: (trilema) 2017-07-22 asciilifeform: at the cost of a bit of log clutter, let's indulge asciilifeform's crackpottery, and lay out 妓 ( U+5993 : whore ) :
verisimilitude: I'm aware Elision is similar to MIDI, yes. I've already realized that great storage savings require something approaches its source form. Since this is naturally easier to manipulate, copyright cretins will resist it where possible.
asciilifeform: almost a litmus for nifty computerizations : do copyrasts rise up against it ?
verisimilitude: Regardless of any prior art, I independently created this. I'd probably be interested in discussing this other system, once I read those logs.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i suspect that quite a few folx independently derived similar schemes.
asciilifeform: but you won't hear about it from 'lugenpress'.
verisimilitude: It may be the case most good ideas are like this, but mine ego greatly enjoys phrasing it as ``independently created'', which is also the truth.
verisimilitude: That log snippet is rather bare.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: quite a few ideas automagically visit folx who rise to sufficient grasp of $subject
asciilifeform: this is a regular thing and one gets used to processing it w/out emotion (or cannot function well as researcher)
verisimilitude: I firmly believe those who obsess over something, and are capable, will eventually have novel ideas.
asciilifeform for instance had an unpublished crackpottery in early 2000s that attempted to solve the same problem as the eventual '09 bitcoinism.
asciilifeform: ^ as did many other folx.
verisimilitude: Unlike other media, text is effectively already shared in its source form, not that I care about the trends.
asciilifeform: then of course there are the 'historic' cases, e.g. where a telegraph in ru existed 7y prior to morse (but 'military secret' derpitude), c. cocks and his rsa (british seekrit) prior to rivest, etc
verisimilitude: Give me the gist; I've no PDF reader, currently.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: lengthy and heavily censored usg internal report re harassment of non-usg cryptographers in era of dawn of pc crypto
asciilifeform: (tldr -- 'denies errything' while 'lady doth protest too much' )
verisimilitude: While I think of it, I do look for systems similar to mine, and have found nothing resembling neither the MMC nor Elision.
verisimilitude: There are some key ideas in Elision that make it a model of language, not typical compression.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: attempts to conclusively nail down model of even 1 particular natural lang have been nailing practitioners since early '50s. it is -- in very subtle ways -- considerably harder problem than 1st appears.
snsabot: (trilema) 2018-06-21 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: google translator is pretty much same 1970s lultron as produced 'the vodka is tasty but the meat -- rotten' from 'spirit is willing but flesh is weak', famously
asciilifeform: it's where conlang culture (as it exists today, esperantists apart) originated from.
verisimilitude: I'm only modelling what is certain with my methods.
verisimilitude: In particular, ``understanding'' is no part of it.
asciilifeform: maybe i misunderstand, but either you have '0 understanding of input req'd' and then what you got is a text compression scheme; or yer thing is aware of finer structure and therefore does req some understanding of fine structure.
asciilifeform: which is it?
verisimilitude: I'm using the word differently than an AI program would.
verisimilitude: So, as far as English is concerned, it will basically ``compress'' entire words to table indices, and each index could have some metadata for automated grammar checking.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i tend to use it in g. chaitin's sense, of 'predict'. e.g. once you understand how one generates 3.14159... , can get any number of digits you like
verisimilitude: Was the rewritten article read?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i'ma read it shortly
asciilifeform hands atm mostly full
verisimilitude: Now, with Latin, I'd like to pair words with declensions and conjugations, which is better than what can reasonably be done with English.
verisimilitude: It's no rush; I'll still be here.
verisimilitude: I'm becoming so much better with my chording keyboard, asciilifeform; I'm happy to have tried it because of what I've read here.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: and this, as i understand, is with a rather rough commercial kbd. picture what could do with a proper (custom) one.
verisimilitude: I've been using it almost exclusively for months.
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2017-07-22#1689167 << "why didn't the Chinese think of this themselves" is a recurring question in Sinology.
snsabot: (trilema) 2017-07-22 asciilifeform: i find it interesting that -- afaik -- nobody in actual asia thought of EITHER approach.
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: i suspect that the answer is invariably '9000 chinese thought of it, but each time 'perp' was horsewhipped, told in no uncertain terms that it won't do, not properly confucian/maoist/etc., and if still didn't get message, beheaded'
gregorynyssa: asciilifeform: something resembling your idea was finally implemented by a Chinese person -- not within China, but at Carnegie Mellon
gregorynyssa: modern China does not have the intellectual self-sufficiency of Russia.
gregorynyssa: science and engineering remain heavily reliant on Chinese citizen who possess American degrees.
asciilifeform: not quite same thing tho, rather narrowly concerned with old 'runic' subcomponents of the hieroglyphs (which , after various reforms/simplifications over centuries, not always readily connectible with the current glyph where nominally used)
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: the sad thing is that current-day usa is roughly same item as 'stagnation-era' cn
gregorynyssa: the "Chinese with American degrees" form their own subculture in China, with their own exclusive networks and clubs.
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-03#1035453 << 1971!! haha..
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-03 16:58:21 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: the sad thing is that current-day usa is roughly same item as 'stagnation-era' cn
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: dunno where you got the idea that modern-day ru exemplifies some kinda 'intellectual self-sufficiency'
asciilifeform: (quick litmus test for 'independent intellectual culture' -- 'does it have its own os?' -- linux distros not to be counted.)
gregorynyssa: for one thing, Losing Military Supremacy (2018) by Andrei Martyanov. I read this book last month.
gregorynyssa: he claims that homegrown Russian engineering community survived Yeltsin-era disturbances, remains very strong.
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: there's a number of pieces like this. written even prior to 'nam'. the folx who 'need these most', won't read (and if read, will draw 0 conclusion)
asciilifeform: these are rather similar to the b00ks 'on atheism' that were fashionable 20y ago
asciilifeform: a 'usg atheist' does not need the book; a 'usg theist' cannot be helped with a book, probably not even certain that he can be helped with sharp stick up his arse
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: there's ~0 post-soviet engineering work worth noting in ru afaik.
asciilifeform: what there is, is 'over 9000' mountebanks peddling mildly-repainted su-era works; and of course 3d animations of wunderwaffen.
gregorynyssa: funny that you mention. Martyanov tries very hard to appeal to the "USG theists" with reason.
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: somehow asciilifeform very often finds self , in meatspace, in the company of 'cold warriors' who (being originally created, in ideological sense, by su emigres) do the 'cat sniffs cat's arse' thing, 'hey, aint putler the devil? how about them 1000 megatonne robotic submarines' and fall down laffing
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-03#1035466 << he gives the S-400 and S-500 as examples
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-03 17:03:09 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: there's ~0 post-soviet engineering work worth noting in ru afaik.
asciilifeform: these aint in any sense post-su
asciilifeform: even if nominally 'new'
asciilifeform: hell, they're still running on su-era pdp clones
asciilifeform: s-xxx is precisely the kind of thing i'm referring to.
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-03#1035474 << never knew. now that is fascinating.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-03 17:05:42 asciilifeform: hell, they're still running on su-era pdp clones
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-03#1035472 << then SU must have been incredible in the 1980s.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-03 17:05:20 asciilifeform: these aint in any sense post-su
snsabot: (trilema) 2019-09-17 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: re 'face derealization' / 'they gave up, why' -- i was reading not long ago about keldysh (head of sovok academy of sciences, and overall respectable figure, in charge of ~100% of calculative works for space / atomic programs etc. ) BUT at same time is the fella who undertook 'let's ditch native comp archs and copy pdp'. seems like was a checkmate, rather than 'dolchstoss', saw no working alternative , 'we can't affor
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: '70s.
asciilifeform: had superscalarism, pipelining, etc. prior to cray.
asciilifeform: then bean counters, as they always do, stepped in, turned errything they touched to shit.
snsabot: (trilema) 2019-09-17 asciilifeform: sure as fuck worx, 1934-1953 worked a+++. but then the 'soft' folx came, and forgot how.
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-03#1035483 << this gives me flashbacks of my college-days reading Hennessy and Patterson. it has been ten years...
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-03 17:08:07 asciilifeform: had superscalarism, pipelining, etc. prior to cray.
asciilifeform also learned on h&p
asciilifeform: in a u.s. uni. was many yrs later somewhat astonished to learn that old orcistan had much of the 'good parts' 10+y earlier
asciilifeform: but of course 'does not count'(tm) 'because reasons'(c).
gregorynyssa: I would be interested in reading those materials one day if/when I have learned Russian.
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: rather fragmented subject, and (on account of said fragmentation / incomplete presence on www) difficult even for folx who know the lang
asciilifeform if had 'infinite' time, would undertake to document subj.
verisimilitude: I notice an inconsistency.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: elaborate?
verisimilitude: To be brief: We understand the issues with the von Neumann model, with pipelining and the like as band-aids, but the Soviet Union was ahead when it was doing these?
verisimilitude: So the Soviet Union was ahead of all others in being bad?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: afaik no one there had gotten as far as to consider rejecting vn model.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: think, this requires one to emerge from the 20th c. transistor poverty which had produced the model to begin with.
asciilifeform: so from that pov, in fact 'ahead in being bad'.
asciilifeform: there wasn't entirely 0 work in non-vn computation ; in particular, analogue computing lived on long after ~entirely forgotten in the west.
asciilifeform: as late as '70s, asciilifeform's grandfather was building (for own applied phys. worx) hydraulic calculators.
asciilifeform: this 'was not from a good life' however.
asciilifeform: when he got access to digital comp (clone of ibm 360) threw out the hydraulics.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-03#1035296 << very much useful.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-03 15:09:33 whaack: looks like my node caught up based on your last !poll... is my node actually doing a service if it struggles to keep up to what seems to be the longest chain?
asciilifeform: there aint so many proper nodes (esp. if one only counts such where owner actually fucking watches the thing and does what it takes to force it to keep up more or less)