Hide Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2019-11-03 | 2019-11-05 → ↓
shinohai: Still working on the html part of logging
asciilifeform: shinohai: neato. ( can't resist to ask, what'll it do if e.g. (delete-file (probe-file "/")) or similar. )
shinohai: Has mechanism to avoid random user from using eval function and entering catastrophic lines, but good question xD
shinohai: I must tip hat to trinque while he is here, if not for him encouraging me long ago would never have picked up first parenthesis.
asciilifeform: meanwhile, for the literature-inclined, a. koestler's 'darkness at noon' is imho an a+++ work re the earlier subj. ( a 1940 yarn about a slightly-dumber asciilifeform . )
spyked: asciilifeform, I'll bring feedbot to #a tomorrow morning the latest. I'll need a list of feeds to be announced in chan, lemme know what you'd like to have here.
shinohai: ./uptime
btcinfobot: Uptime: 7 hours, 31 minutes
asciilifeform: mp's latest masterpiece doesn't disappoint. diana_coman i suspect this, for instance, is a q addressed to erryone here.
asciilifeform: and i'd like to hear concrete answers, from : ave1 , BingoBoingo , bvt , diana_coman , lobbes , mod6 , spyked , trinque .
asciilifeform: mod6 in particular hasn't afaik spoken yet. i'm curious, mod6 , will you let mp disassemble and plunder tbf ?
asciilifeform: at this pt i'ma say that what, if anyffin, remains of the republic -- is currently assembled ~here~. let's see what, exactly , remains.
asciilifeform: imho is adequately illustrated nao -- working for mp is its own punishment, like sniffing glue. all of you are of course welcome to ignore the warning and do another, own, '7 years', in mpschwitz, until the inevitable shitcanning.
asciilifeform: can't speak for others, but asciilifeform would like to put his wot ratings in order by end of this wk. others invited to do same.
asciilifeform: republic -- door on the left. 5th reich -- door on the right.
asciilifeform: make a decision that you can live with. as i did.
diana_coman: asciilifeform: *you* ask me what questions you have and I'll answer.
diana_coman: I'm listening.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: since apparently q wasn't clear (imho mp made it very simple) -- do you agree with this proclamation ?
diana_coman: asciilifeform: you ask me a question of yours, not if I agree with whatever someone else said somewhere else; please.
asciilifeform: not sure why requires a tea ceremony, but how about : diana_coman, do you agree that 'the present value of Stanislav Datskovskiy's future work is today exactly zero, for very good reasons that stand on a lot of historical backing' ?
diana_coman: that's still not your question, is it; sigh.
diana_coman: asciilifeform: I'll ask you one, if you don't mind
asciilifeform listening
diana_coman: asciilifeform: do you intend to not work with me if I work with MP?
snsabot: Logged on 2019-11-04 14:56:34 asciilifeform: not sure why requires a tea ceremony, but how about : diana_coman, do you agree that 'the present value of Stanislav Datskovskiy's future work is today exactly zero, for very good reasons that stand on a lot of historical backing' ?
diana_coman: shinohai: didn't know you answered stuff addressed to me nao.
shinohai: Apologies diana_coman ... asciilifeform asked me to post but imma give ya'll teh floor.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i'ma work with anyone. even, theoretically, with (but not 'for') mp (tho as i understand he'd rather eat glass.) but the proviso is, as ~republicans~ , i.e. free people in own right. folx who answer to the fuhrer, and consider him a moral authority, are guaranteed to face difficulties here sooner or later.
asciilifeform: so i'd like to invite folx to think.
diana_coman: asciilifeform: do you consider me a republican currently ?
asciilifeform: diana_coman: tbh i do not know yet.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i'd like to ask you the same q, also.
diana_coman: asciilifeform: right; and you'll "know it" based on whether I continue working with MP or not, right?
asciilifeform: diana_coman: no.
diana_coman: asciilifeform: so ASK THE QUESTION ffs.
diana_coman: asciilifeform: how will you know it then? based on what?
asciilifeform: diana_coman: very simple. when mp issues fatwa, on what side of the razor wire will diana_coman be found ? i do not yet know.
diana_coman: 1. I have no idea what fatwa are you talking about 2. how is that different from "if you work with MP, I won't work with you" ?
diana_coman: (also, let me point out that making a "decision" as to whether people are republicans/free in own right based on whether they pledge allegiance to you or to someone else is communist in action if nothing else)
asciilifeform: diana_coman: to be very clear, in eyes of asciilifeform , mp is a harmless maniac, and asciilifeform's whatever workplace injuries from trying to work for him, are arguably self-inflicted. like injuries from running into brick wall. ( arguably oughta have stopped no later than this point, there was ample warning. ) so i dun intend to issue any fatwas or ask for pledges
asciilifeform: , will leave those to the fella with jupiter-sized ego. but would like folx to ~think~ .
diana_coman: if he's harmless, what's it all to you, there's no sense there.
diana_coman: what "this is the republic *here*" and all that.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i wish to ask you to describe your conception of 'the republic'.
asciilifeform: we may be working from different priors.
diana_coman: asciilifeform: do me a favour and judge me as a person, make your determination & rate me accordingly, I'm fine with whatever it might be.
diana_coman: asciilifeform: I think I described in quite detail in #o and you were tuned in, no? but here for quick link: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-16#1006573
ossabot: (ossasepia) 2019-10-16 diana_coman: jfw: as to the republic as a whole, the fundamental aspect I'd say is the fact that it's a republic of men (ie individual agents, active and self-directed entities)
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i unfortunately know very little about diana_coman as person. i know that diana_coman was once an academic, and quit because tired of the 4th reich's bullshit. then agreed to work for mp, for (unlike asciilifeform, who was a rube and bit promisetronic hook) coin on the barrelhead. and it would seem that asciilifeform and diana_coman historically agreed re questions pertaining to softwares .
asciilifeform: beyond this i sadly do not know much, my ro is too weak to adequately absorb diana_coman's older writings re philosophies just yet.
diana_coman: as I'm running out of time currently and people are waiting for me, I'll answer the question you never actually asked: I'll interact gladly with asciilifeform's outputs, both physical artefacts and blog posts; and I'll provide feedback on those gladly; I am however extremely tired of attempting direct coordination on anything that is not one of those 2 things.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: very good, ty for answer.
diana_coman: I suppose I should add in the spirit of full disclosure that I will go as far as positively steer away from direct coordination due to past experience (of which the above "question" gives quite the clear flavour re nothing changed).
diana_coman will bbl
asciilifeform: presently seems to me that diana_coman's view of 'what is republic', at least as described here matches my own.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-11-04 15:12:07 diana_coman: asciilifeform: I think I described in quite detail in #o and you were tuned in, no? but here for quick link: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-16#1006573
ossabot: (ossasepia) 2019-10-16 diana_coman: jfw: as to the republic as a whole, the fundamental aspect I'd say is the fact that it's a republic of men (ie individual agents, active and self-directed entities)
asciilifeform being literate, and qualified to judge mechanical outputs with own hands, will happily work with such people. whether they get a salary from some nutter somewhere dun make any problem for asciilifeform .
asciilifeform also bbl : tea.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2019-11-04#1001214 << in continuation, arguably, of above thrd : spyked are you willing to make provisions for displaying in #a the feeds that are requested strictly by the folx inhabiting #a (rather than controlled strictly from #t) ?
snsabot: Logged on 2019-11-04 09:40:03 spyked: asciilifeform, I'll bring feedbot to #a tomorrow morning the latest. I'll need a list of feeds to be announced in chan, lemme know what you'd like to have here.
asciilifeform: spyked: if the answr's yes, and you need programmatic help for this, plz let asciilifeform know.
asciilifeform: trinque are you willing/able to put deedbot here ? (and, does this require the rewrite ? or could be done as it stands ?)
asciilifeform: lobbes: can haz the auctionbot here ?
asciilifeform: meanwhile, BingoBoingo -- in light of this, can you tell me what qntra wins from being on mpex ? or , in particular, what you expect to win from continued collaboration w/ the napoleon ? does he even pay yer hosting bill at this pt ?
snsabot: Logged on 2019-11-03 19:42:56 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: My present sadness stems from the fact that I *do* buy your version.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: know that you'll have an rk within same day you ask, and 'pro bono' for as long as you operate qntra. ( that is, if you decide that you'd like to join the free world. )
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: ftr asciilifeform stuck around in e.g. '17, when clearly unwanted guest in mp's house, largely from being complete rube and having nfi that could buy entirely effective own hosting. took mp's crumbs like idiot kid takes pedovan candy. if yer doing that -- it aint too late to stop.
snsabot: (trilema) 2019-10-03 asciilifeform: he walks along the street. suddenly a van stops, and inside there is pedofag , 'hey boy, like candy?' boy -- gets in.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Continued collaboration with MP wins me the opportunity to continue pressing myself against the blades in the hope that I continue to sharpen into the sorta man that can contribute to shaping the world. I am not in a position where I can write off the 5-15 years of experience advantage it seems I get whenever I consult the man.
BingoBoingo: With respect to Qntra, he really did play a major part in shaping the thing. His interjections and impositions have bee very infrequent in recent years, but left to myself and cazalla alone... The thing would look very different.
BingoBoingo: I have no problems continuing to interact with you and the free Republicans. Once Pizarro's boxed, buried, and my deedbot wallet's no longer intermingled with Pizarro I'll pay to rent a RockChip in your rack. Qntra probably won't fit comfortably in a Rockchip, five years of ~daily posting means Qntra seems to be the biggest RAM eater on 'anyserver' at the moment.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: ty for actually answering the q as given.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: You're welcome
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: fwiw i also learned many useful things from mp. which i'ma apply. up through '16 or so he was unequaled teacher. atm tho, imho he's rather like an alzheimer's patient smearing shit on the hospital walls.
diana_coman: ugh, I honestly can't stand this "free republicans" shit.
diana_coman: are you trying to re-enact here the sort of in-group signalling that went so marvelously before or what?
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i dun particularly care re 'group signals' , but from purely practical considerations need a sense of who's signing the ' asciilifeform doubleplusungood unperson ' decree, and who aint.
BingoBoingo: diana_coman: There's a good reason for your distaste and why I needed to use the man's label to answer his question.
BingoBoingo: brb, 4 real
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: obv. if you think it dun fit in rk, can get larger. the issue's that mp would sooner eat glass than pay for it, imho he made this quite clear.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-11-04 14:18:55 asciilifeform: mod6 in particular hasn't afaik spoken yet. i'm curious, mod6 , will you let mp disassemble and plunder tbf ?
asciilifeform: wb mod6
mod6: not even sure how to respond to this.
asciilifeform: mod6: i rec to catch up on last wk, if you haven't yet. and after that say.
shinohai salutes mod6 o7
mod6: I think I've made it pretty clear that I'm not interested in doing the foundation any longer, and mp has stated that he would like something done about it as well.
mod6: Hey shinohai
davout: mod6: ohai!
mod6: Anyway, my focus is not as much on all-things-tbf at the moment. The most important thing on my list atm is this pizarro stuff. Once that is all put to rest, as I said recently, can then start working on what to do about TBF>
mod6: hey davout! long time man, how've you been?
asciilifeform: mod6: i'm working on, among other things, the q of who (if anyone) is this 'we' .
mod6: Did I say 'we'?
asciilifeform: didn't , which i suppose is clever .
mod6: lol im confused.
mod6: Anyway, 'plunder'? I don't think anything can be 'plundered'.
asciilifeform: didja see this, mod6 ?
snsabot: Logged on 2019-11-04 14:14:51 asciilifeform: mp's latest masterpiece doesn't disappoint. diana_coman i suspect this, for instance, is a q addressed to erryone here.
mod6: So, basically there are perhaps two different things that can become of the Foundation. Either someone steps up, takes a noted interest in the Chairmanship, and is approved of by L1/MP/TMSR; as of the last two years, there has been no takers. But who knows, maybe someone will throw their hat in the ring.
mod6: The other thing would be shutting it down.
mod6: Either way will take discussion and measured steps. I'm sure will get discussion in #t.
asciilifeform: mod6: you didn't read mp's piece didja.
mod6: I've read; losses, closure, your things amount to zero.
asciilifeform: mod6: ok so read. and agree ? so whatcha doing here then ?
mod6: What is the question exactly?
asciilifeform: mod6: what are 90+% of trb patches by weight/volume made of ?
mod6: Your stuff, of course.
asciilifeform: which == 0, rright ?
mod6: It was well noted that these patches would need a 'going over' once again (in #trilema).
mod6: Yeah, well it seems that undetermined currently. I'm not in any sort of good standing either, as far as I can tell.
asciilifeform: rrright, cuz asciilifeform , by decree of his majesty the fuhrer, is unperson. so i'ma ask again, what is mod6 doing here, talking to unpeople ?
mod6: So I'm pretty certain that I won't be the one to do the 'going over' of any of those things.
asciilifeform: mod6: yer going , in case you have doubts on the subj, right next to asciilifeform in same grave.
mod6: Pretty much.
asciilifeform: the q is, are you gonna go like koestler's rubashov ? or like asciilifeform .
snsabot: Logged on 2019-11-04 00:25:41 asciilifeform: meanwhile, for the literature-inclined, a. koestler's 'darkness at noon' is imho an a+++ work re the earlier subj. ( a 1940 yarn about a slightly-dumber asciilifeform . )
mod6: I stick around, as to now go AWOL, as some have, so I can ensure that things are put to rest the best that I can, while I have a voice.
shinohai: "Darkness at noon" was a great read btw
mod6: s/now/not/
asciilifeform: mod6: in case it wasn't clear -- asciilifeform aint going like rubashov.
mod6: But again, my priorities are to ensure that piz is put to rest successfully, with all liabilities paid, etc. Then will focus on what to do re: foundation.
asciilifeform: mod6: after mp is paid his 0.9, 100% of the remaining piz stakeholders are here.
asciilifeform: and of these 3, only 2 in #t .
asciilifeform: is this clear ?
mod6: Sure, what of it?
asciilifeform: mod6: i'd like to make sure, when you're putting things to rest, that yer talking to people who are actually there. is all.
asciilifeform: and, additionally, that yer talking to people who you actually consider to be people.
mod6: All things will happen in #trilema, unless asked to not be by MP.
asciilifeform: mod6: so what do you intend to do re stakeholders unpersoned by mp ?
mod6: Steakholders of Pizarro?
asciilifeform: are you gonna swallow asciilifeform's coin, mod6 ?
asciilifeform: correct, of piz.
mod6: Are you trying to give me coin? lol
asciilifeform: mod6: i expect mp will try to 'give' it to you, yes.
mod6: The coins that you put into Piz??
asciilifeform: unpersons dun have any biz having coin.
asciilifeform: correct.
mod6: Well, I highly doubt that.
mod6: The man pays his debts.
asciilifeform: mp has worked hard to remove what doubt i had .
mod6: At least, so far he has, to the best of my knowledge.
asciilifeform: ( incidentally i owe him a 0.3 , and still fighting w/ q of wtf is going on w/ my node )
mod6: one sec.
asciilifeform: mod6: do you recall how mp 'paid' his debt to kako ?
mod6: was kako owed anything?
asciilifeform: iirc coupla hundy btc on mpex.
mod6: And what, it was simply kept?
asciilifeform: it's in the (phf, only, atm) logs, mod6 .
mod6: Ok without getting into the weeds on that for a moment.
mod6: As I see it, first we repay the coins that are due to the customers of Piz.
asciilifeform: mod6: right, but the q aint re these.
mod6: Once that is settled, we figure out what is left, and it gets divided equally among the equity holders.
mod6: I don't think that MP enters into it.
asciilifeform: mod6: if he dun enter into it, why is 'the discussion to be in #t' ? or do i misunderstand ?
mod6: Well, all business and filings happen there; but I was more speaking to the Foundation discussions -- we're kinda hitting on two different topics here.
mod6: But just because you're unperson, doesn't mean that you don't get your due from Piz.
mod6: Now, if you OWE Mr. P. some coins, then you must pay. But Piz isn't a part of that question.
asciilifeform: mod6: suppose he decides i owe him 9000. because he threw a knife at a dartboard and it lands on that # . you will agree ?
mod6: Anyone can decide anything, I suppose. 'you owe me 21 million coins. pay up.'
mod6: Mr. P., as long as I've known him, doesn't decide things like this.
asciilifeform: rright, but how about when it's mp, rather than 'anyone'.
mod6: Have you ever known him to do such things?
asciilifeform: mod6: in fact yes. as of 2wk ago.
mod6: My inner-mp, as bad as it probably is, would probably say, 'What do you take me for?!?'
asciilifeform: when randomly decided that snsa exists for the purpose of isp suicide mission manned by asciilifeform , for instance.
mod6: He said that you owe him 9000 coins?
asciilifeform: mod6: when said that asciilifeform tricked him, somehow, into eating 7y of 'work that sums to 0.'
asciilifeform: for all i know that's a 900,000 bill, not even 9000.
mod6: does 'isp suicide mission' mean pizarro, or your own isp you're talking about in the last couple of weeks?
asciilifeform: mod6: he wanted to own it, and i said no.
mod6: Well, as I read, he wanted you to entertain the idea of external investment.
mod6: Which, we went through this on the Piz thing as well.
asciilifeform: mod6: are you at all puzzled re why i did not entertain it ?
asciilifeform: suppose i had agreed. and then 2wk later mp takes his ball and goes home, as he just did. what is asciilifeform to do w/ the next 10,000 $ megarack bill ?
mod6: Well, it was to be your venture. If you wanted it to be your own, then that's your choice. I believe the wisdom seems to be thus (I could certainly be wrong here): That the prospect of external investment, from whomever, puts external pressure on the governance of any entity such that they are responsible not only to the customers, but to the investors to make sound choices, and generate a positive r
mod6: eturn on investment.
asciilifeform: i've made my choice, mod6 . specifically, to cut the maniac's tentacles out of all of my systems.
mats: im very saddened to read that your differences are irreconciliable
mats: i was hoping this was an elaborate roll call
asciilifeform: mats: it aint a dress rehearsal, like '17. 'this is not a drill!'(tm)(r).
mats: as a minority shareholder i do feel some relief that nsa is finally being closed, but i do think the blame is disproportionately allocated to you
mod6: Anyway, asciilifeform, what I meant as 'must pay', is upon a mutualy agreed upon debt, in the gentlemens way. i.e. you both agree that you owe 0.3 BTC to the man, then just pay that sum and be done with it.
asciilifeform: mod6: ftr i in fact owe him 0.3 ( expect to settle today, finally figured out why my wallet refill tx was wedged, it somehow was set to 0 fee. )
mod6: Yeah, as a simple reminder, every time you start up TRB, the txfee is set to 0. One must set the fee to something non-zero with the RPC command.
asciilifeform: and after this, mod6 , i expect that asciilifeform and mp are through. ( the auction buyers will still have to say where they want their snsa irons, but this dun require asciilifeform and mp talking. )
asciilifeform: what mod6 might like to know, however, is that asciilifeform aint through. a batch of new FG is happening in '20. trb work will continue -- here. phuctor will stand up 1nce i'm done buying brand new ssd for its machine. ffa will continue -- here. the q is whether mod6 is interested in participating. or would rather rubashov.
asciilifeform: mats: it oughta have closed years ago. but mp liked having a convenient stick to beat asciilifeform with. nao he decided (for all i know, entirely correctly) that he can do w/out 'mad dog engineer' or whatever , and dun need the stick. pretty simple.
asciilifeform: for my part, mats , i can do exactly errything i could do previously, w/out the (imaginary , for any practical purpose) megacoin .
asciilifeform: from nao on, if anyone wants to give asciilifeform coin, it'll have to be for ~existing~ goods & services, and in actual coin on the barrelhead, rather than stocks/promises .
mats: im still hopeful this blows over in a month
asciilifeform: mats: mp aint a liar, he described exactly how will 'blow over'.
mats: do you have orders for the new fg run?
asciilifeform: mats: mp in fact is doing for asciilifeform a quite valuable service, pro bono : he put 'final exam' to determine who is actually interested in supplying ammunition for the war, and who is happy to 'republic of php'.
asciilifeform: mats: no orders , and none will be accepted until crate is here.
asciilifeform: mats: my isp however is live and accepting customers.
mats: maybe its a better idea to buy dpb's inventory
asciilifeform: mats: from where to buy, and what, is b/w buyer and odin.
mats: with respect i dont believe you curating a rack is +ev
asciilifeform: mats: if yer curious, i'm making a small run of the classic fg, and to be followed by the new scintillator-based item.
asciilifeform: mats: it's +ev elementarily cuz i need a rack. for self.
asciilifeform: there is surplus space in it, that is being offered to folx for whom not 'unperson' .
asciilifeform: incl. curation.
asciilifeform: mats: mp wanted a costly, debt-laden rack that would be stuck catering to heathens, and i -- refused.
mats: i still have fg inventory and so does dpb, i dont think its a good allocation of your money when theres no apparent demand
asciilifeform: mats: mp's repossessing the (very modest) inventory in my hands, so elementarily i need a qty for own use. just like the rack.
mats: how many do you need
mats: id be happy to pick up the bills for phuctor btw
asciilifeform: mats: not large #. but , understand, i aint buying back own production at 1000% markup, contrary to mp-reich consensus, asciilifeform aint actually a tard.
asciilifeform: mats: i dun need to beg for pennies, but ty
mats: its not charity, its keeping phuctor online
asciilifeform: mats: it'll stay online . and i expect w/out the traditional erry-2-yrs fallin' down.
asciilifeform: mats: i'ma finally feed in yer collection, too, nao w/ new, large ssd array .
mats: i have five fg id trade for 60% of the fiat value at production
asciilifeform: mats: i'd still rather make new, but ty.
mats: ok
asciilifeform: will helpfully make'em diff colour, too, for folx who are afraid to accidentally end up w/ a unit that wasn't bathed in the holy light of the fuhrer somehow.
asciilifeform: mats: you understand, i need for own needs rng. and i , like rube, signed an idiot agreement that allowed 100% of personal inventory to get repossessed .
asciilifeform: once i cut that tentacle, that's it tho.
asciilifeform: it's about control, mats. and balls kept in working order. so not strictly financial calculus.
asciilifeform: the rack is valuable ( ~to asciilifeform~, possibly to no one else ) because it is ~mine~ and mp has 0 say over it. ditto the 3rd ed. fg.
asciilifeform: sorta like distilled water is moar valuable than tapwater, to the folx buyin' it, it's valuable for what ~aint~ in it.
asciilifeform: for all i know, mp intends to sabotage the old stock before pawning it off to others.
mats: ftr, kako deposited 20btc, withdrew 670, the confiscated balance isnt in the logs
asciilifeform: mats: iirc the withdrawal was not processed.
asciilifeform: at any rate, i'm complicit in that warcrime -- saw kako as scumbag and said 0 .
mats: and the confiscation followed an attempt to convince davout mp's funds for house bets belonged to kako
asciilifeform: mats: right, matches my memory
asciilifeform: i agreed w/ the verdict .
asciilifeform: ever read 'darkness at noon', mats ? i recommend .
snsabot: Logged on 2019-11-04 00:25:41 asciilifeform: meanwhile, for the literature-inclined, a. koestler's 'darkness at noon' is imho an a+++ work re the earlier subj. ( a 1940 yarn about a slightly-dumber asciilifeform . )
mats: i still think kako was at fault, even if the canary was negligent it still goes on the books
asciilifeform: to my shame, mats, i hated kako 'ethnically' , i.e. saw him as unprincipled 'all about the coin' fella. rather like what i nao think of mp .
asciilifeform: nao i'm curious re whether principled folx even exist.
diana_coman shudders.
davout: mats: this happened after the liquidation of bitbet's assets & liabilities, specifically when the mpex asset was taken down
asciilifeform: diana_coman: asciilifeform for instance. is principled ? or insane ? what do you think ?
diana_coman: insanely principled works.
asciilifeform will buy.
diana_coman: as does principly insane though I stumble on English grammar there.
diana_coman: onth MP really is principled and that's all I'll say.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: btw imho erryone oughta make fg w/ own hands. thought this in '16 and still do.
diana_coman: asciilifeform: yes, except I have only 2 hands and about 100001 things to make with them.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform -- also.
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