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thimbronion: !ticker xbtusd
lekythion: Kraken XBTUSD: 34661.00000
billymg: asciilifeform: this was news to me when you posted it. was there ever any discussion about merging this change into trb as a way to ditch openssl?
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-24 13:11:46 asciilifeform: << strangely enough, i'm not 100% certain which would win if one were to count library mass. (iirc at a certain pt prb dropped the openssl dep in favour of some ad-hoc thing, for instance.)
billymg: thestringpuller: where was that discussion from? not surprising of course, the wind/solar people are like the shitcoiners of the energy industry. they're not interested in the problems, only selling their "solution"
asciilifeform: billymg: was discussed on numerous occasions. asciilifeform wasn't eager to crib src from known nsa stooges; mp didn't push the issue (nfi precisely why, but prolly same reason) ; nobody else admitted to giving a rat's arse re: subj.
asciilifeform: fwiw asciilifeform, on erry occasion where this came up, pushed against idea of cribbing routines from prb. for what imho are quite obv. reasons.
asciilifeform: 'fruit of poison tree'.
thestringpuller: billymg: pretty much every "progressive" in the US will make identical argument if bitcoin is brought up; conversation is almost as predictible as what happens when you throw a chair in a crowded room
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: see also.
snsabot: (trilema) 2015-12-19 asciilifeform: << you know what's great? rat poison STILL WORKS even if you don't explain to the rats exactly ~how~ !
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: i've been using trb as last resort bitcoin "canary warrant"; if blocks stop advancing then I know the jig is up and some power ranger somewhere has called the cops on the party
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: you'll go broke replacing the pants you've filled, if doing this, trb nodes do wedge periodically
snsabot: (asciilifeform) 2020-02-27 asciilifeform: attn trb operators: is nao running mod6's latest variant, augmented with this experimental patch (my sig thereof ) .
thestringpuller: My threshold for "shit hits the fan" is 1 difficulty period, which is pretty rare for TRB to wedge on in my experience
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: once falls behind 100+ blox, typically will not resync w/out manual intervention. (some folx set up cron to reset, this ~worx at the risk of blowing the db)
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: are you familiar w/ 'watchglass' ?
snsabot: (asciilifeform) 2021-06-09 watchglass: Polling 17 nodes...
asciilifeform: lemme know if you want your noad added to the roster.
asciilifeform: atm watchglass lives in #asciilifeform and #therealbitcoin .
billymg: thestringpuller: lol, i'll admit it's been a while since i've had any conversations with normies re: bitcoin. i think last time was a few years ago, and back then the typical response was "the government will just ban it"
billymg: or if it was a certain special kind of retard, "etherium will overtake it cause bitcoin is old and slow"
billymg: ethereum* i suppose
asciilifeform: billymg: imho it'd be strange to expect 'normies' to be fond of bitcoin (or to understand wtf even is, beyond what picture volkischer beobachter paints for their consumption.) bitcoin is a cruel knife that cuts, the typical reactions are connected with this fact.
snsabot: (asciilifeform) 2021-03-09 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i suspect that not all authors of such pieces are formally paid shills; rather, the subject has a strong (i suspect -- from envy) dementia-inducing effect on various folx;
thimbronion: billymg: every silicon person automatically goes for eth. Because it feels like heroku.
thimbronion: *silicon valley
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: i thought simply because 'civilizedly' centrally-managed product w/ 1e8 loc
asciilifeform: i.e. specifically constructed by vermin, for vermin
asciilifeform: err, thimbronion
asciilifeform: grr tab completionism
billymg: << got it, i figured it had something to do with this
snsabot: Logged on 2021-06-09 12:02:50 asciilifeform: billymg: was discussed on numerous occasions. asciilifeform wasn't eager to crib src from known nsa stooges; mp didn't push the issue (nfi precisely why, but prolly same reason) ; nobody else admitted to giving a rat's arse re: subj.
billymg: asciilifeform: i still make the mistake of assuming normies are operating rationally, and in self interest (and i used to make this mistake a lot more)
asciilifeform: billymg: the rational ones are too terrified to speak.
billymg: but yes, i think they all understand on instinct what bitcoin is and it terrifies them: "we better stop talking about it, master's not gonna like this"
thimbronion: asciilifeform: I don't know how many get to the stage of knowing what it actually is rather than what it looks like.
asciilifeform: thimbronion: 99%+ of usg efforts against bitcoinism were specifically aimed at preventing noobs from finding out 'what really is'.
billymg: thimbronion: i think this is correct. the "feels like heroku" is all they care about. if it's branded right, if the aesthetic is right, they know it's "safe and sanctioned"
billymg knew a guy like this at previous company, being a designer he had a strong intuition for this and flipped his early $500 ETH investment to $50k on coinbase
billymg: he didn't care one bit about decentralization, immutability, censorship/seizure resistance, etc.
thimbronion: billymg: yeah for devs it's like: wow these api docs look pretty slick!
billymg: thimbronion: heh, yep, exactly
billymg: i noticed that slickness when poking around the urbit docs
asciilifeform: y'know, billymg , asking 'slickness sv coder' to care about decentralization etc. is rather like expecting a mouse to ask nutrition label for the cheese in mousetrap before biting in
billymg: asciilifeform: yeah, but perhaps the same cheese can be used to lure the mouse into a safe and sturdy nest instead of the trap. at least this is the theory i want to test
asciilifeform: billymg: very doubtful, imho. (ever heard term 'superstimulus' ?)
billymg: asciilifeform: hmm, not entirely familiar
asciilifeform: not even to mention that you can't offer 'same cheese'. trb aint ever appearing on 'cnn', 'pc magazine', 'fox', etc.
billymg: asciilifeform: true
asciilifeform: it's a 'terrorist' product. rather like e.g. pgp prior to the betrayal of p. zimmerman and koch coming on stage
asciilifeform: the seekrit usg edict about these, since the failed pgp prosecution, is, roughly : 'NO mention of $item is permitted in any plebefodder, whether print or broadcast'.
billymg: asciilifeform: aha, that bolsters my theory about why trb not bothered, it's not mentioned in "pleb fodder"
snsabot: (asciilifeform) 2020-06-08 billymg: asciilifeform: i think there might be a common element between hassids (and amish, etc.) carrying on unmolested, and e.g. alf not being gassed -- members of the herd are not dropping out of school/office life to go join
billymg: but i suspect if anyone here managed to mainstream some site enough for it to be then considered pleb fodder, would meet some resistance
asciilifeform: billymg: usg learned from last round of 'bothering' (pgp trial) , where exact opposite effect of the one orig. desired
billymg: asciilifeform: ah, right, ye old "streisand effect"
billymg: i meant more "bothering" in the hastings' benz sense than through the courts and press
asciilifeform: billymg: observe that the mistake was never repeated. instead there is 1e7 derps employed to manufacture faux-bitcoinclient, faux-noob-guides, faux-'explanations', misc. faux-cryptoalgos, etc
asciilifeform: billymg: for whatever reason, hastings treatment is apparently expensive and used sparingly. (for all i know -- the ~effective~ twin of tmsr was hastings'd and we simply never knew..! )
asciilifeform: (upstack -- this kind of brag imho is quite lulzy -- 50k usd, after tax collectors finish with it, won't even buy a toyota..)
snsabot: Logged on 2021-06-09 12:41:40 billymg: knew a guy like this at previous company, being a designer he had a strong intuition for this and flipped his early $500 ETH investment to $50k on coinbase
billymg: asciilifeform: lol right, fell in the "short term" bucket too
asciilifeform: it's hilarious, imho, when folx brag about winning pocket change.
billymg: keep in mind this was mid 2017, so if he'd played a round this time (with an NFT or whatever) would likely be $150k
billymg: but still, pocket change
asciilifeform: 1 of the interesting, imho, things about hyperinflation is that just about errybody's naive intuitions about 'what's a respectable sack of dough' are wrong.
asciilifeform: at any given time.
billymg: asciilifeform: this is my first time living though a hyperinflation event, so i agree it's disorienting
billymg: i just read the "when money dies" book on the weimar version of it, it had a lot of interesting details on how the events played out day-to-day
billymg: for instance, then too, erryone was "playing the market" and becoming "rich" overnight (and losing it the next day)
asciilifeform: billymg: modern version is moar subtle (i.e. reich attempts to ensure that printolade ends up 'where supposed to', inflating financial instruments, real estate, etc. which can then be taxed for 'gains', effectively confiscating a chunk in favour of the crown, and rinse & repeat, 'goto 10') rather than uncontrolled corkscrew
billymg: more interesting was the divide that built up between the rural families and the city dwellers. the former of whom started to refuse to deliver food in exchange for the play money
asciilifeform: billymg: this played out in su rapidly in '18; ended with requisitions by force of arms, and eventually kolhoz
asciilifeform: in usa it played out, to conclusion, during the reign of fdr.
asciilifeform: eventual end was similar to su's, but 'high tech', ~all agro biz under control of a handful of usg-approved monopolies, and largely automated.
asciilifeform: (the latter had to wait to '80s, but eventually.)
billymg is hoping for a south american renaissance
billymg: and hoping that the properties and dynamics of bitcoin make it different from previous attempts
asciilifeform: billymg: afaik is simply another captive chinesium market. (with, bonus, 200% import duty for non-chinesium, and ~0 native industry, not even to the degree of peron's argentines)
asciilifeform: that'd be 'white' south amer. the rest, afaik, solid agroshithole from ocean to ocean.
billymg: asciilifeform: yeah, was only referring to the civilized side. i think it has the potential to be a safe haven for westerners to escape to
asciilifeform: billymg: for some value of 'westerner' and some value of 'escape', i guess already ?
asciilifeform: billymg: have you visited BingoBoingostan ?
billymg: asciilifeform: i have not yet, i wanted to this summer but i was naive enough to assume that the various travel restrictions would have been lifted by now
asciilifeform: i rec to visit. if yer the type who only needs sunlight, pen and paper, prolly would already find usable.
asciilifeform: their real estate is no less inflated than in east usa, however.
billymg: asciilifeform: costa rica is similar i think, in that sense
asciilifeform: (a global, more or less, plague. the only places where not -- are e.g. eureich, where political prohibitions on foreign devils purchasing, e.g. timisoara where 50k$ mansions)
asciilifeform not been to cr, afaik it's 1 of those places where i'd need own airstrip etc. to stay reliably in gear
billymg: asciilifeform: nah, you can get anything you want from lulazon
billymg: final price is simply 2x whatever the list is
billymg: it's not terrible
billymg: i order stuff and it gets here in a week or two
asciilifeform: similar in uy. at one point i even ordered replacement ssd's directly shipped to BingoBoingo
asciilifeform: ended up ~3x the sticker price.
asciilifeform: iirc 3wks from button push to uncrating.
asciilifeform: if you do enuff of this kind of thing, however, it'll surely wipe out whatever dough yer saving by living in the jungles.
asciilifeform: most egregiously, if you want something that can't be simply packed into a crate. say, a rack at a dc w/ 1G/s pipe.
billymg: asciilifeform: yeah, it's a trade off
billymg: btw the el salvador bill apparently passed, and includes a requirement that any "economic agent" accepts btc
asciilifeform: hilarious, if were taken literally
asciilifeform: (picture trying to buy banana from street cart..)
billymg: lol, saw video on twitter of exactly this!
asciilifeform wonders whether they bothered to try to specify what, precisely, ~is~ bitcoin.. for the purpose
billymg: was with pseudo bitcoin (lightning) on a mobile phone, but still
billymg: asciilifeform: the way their president talks about it i think he knows exactly what it is
billymg: so it's a ballsy move
asciilifeform: billymg: did text of the bill include the genesis block & trb src? i'd suspect not, lol
billymg: no, sure, but the same way that the bad guys sell the covid lockdowns as "for your safety" the good guys can sell bitcoin as "to uplift the unbanked" or whatever
asciilifeform: naturally, and maybe by 'bitcoin' meant shiny brass medals with the B logo..
billymg: lol
thestringpuller: billymg: re eth - I always thought Counterparty (XCP built on top of BTC) would pave the way for tokens, but the ICO scam band was just a natural evolution of GLBSE and the worx
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: what are 'tokens' in this context ?
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: assets/documents
thestringpuller: stock certificate for instance
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: i.e. 'coloured coins'(tm) ?
asciilifeform: (did an actual use case materialize for such thing? iirc was scamola from day 1 to finish)
thestringpuller: yes XCP is just colored coins, but never took off due to many reasons
thestringpuller: scam not because of technology but because of people involved
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: imho bolting promisetronic instruments to bitcoin has approx. as much merit as the 1900s autos with reins instead of steering wheel/pedals
thestringpuller: wouldn't that more be a function of the human nature behind it? still similar problems of contractual obligations whether bitcoin exists or not; car still needs roads and road signs
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: do you recall the old discussion re 'protocol' vs 'promise' technologies ?
asciilifeform: imho is a rather clear distinction. e.g. there ~is~ a nonzero chance that you won't be able to use http tomorrow -- asteroid might strike, or nukefest fells all extant www or underlying structure, etc. but at any rate would require massive calamity, or mass psychosis spontaneously. this -- 'protocol'. 'promise' otoh is when you're counting on some forum derp to actually pay dividends to you,
asciilifeform: simply because you 'bought coloured coin' etc.
thimbronion: The problem is with enforcement. You may assign me your cow on the blockchain, but I can't force delivery of the cow without state involvement. This is not a problem with Bitcoin. You might as well use mysql to record the cow tx.
asciilifeform: i wrote about this in 2012.
asciilifeform: thimbronion: observe that if yer using bitcoin as it was designed to be used, you dun need to 'enforce' anything at all.
thestringpuller: sure, but there is a non-zero chance if I send you bitcoin for agreed upon cow you won't ship it to me
thimbronion: thestringpuller: but bitcoin delivery is guaranteed!
asciilifeform: the solution, such as one exists at all, is wot; rather than oddball extensions to bitcoin.
thestringpuller: true; the counterparty delivery - hence the importance of WoT
thestringpuller: but the counterparty delivery isn't*
thimbronion: thestringpuller: nor is it with colored coins so what's the point?
asciilifeform: afaik 100% of 'bolt on xyz weird to bitcoin' to date has been specifically to fraudulently appropriate the flavour of actual bitcoin (which worx) to promote promisetronium (which not simply 'not worx', but is conceived as a fraudulent scheme from day 1 to relieve morons of their dough)
asciilifeform: thimbronion: not intending to insult, but were you by any chance in a coma for past 7y? or similar? or why else regarding as 'fresh' crackpotteries which were debunked as cheap scamola almost decade ago..
thimbronion: asciilifeform: what am I regarding as fresh?
asciilifeform: 'tokens' etc
thimbronion: Sorry if I gave that impression. I've known about colored coins since they were proposed.
asciilifeform: grr, q was for thestringpuller
asciilifeform: apologies thimbronion
thimbronion: ah no worries
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: was merely in response to earlier thread on eth; always viewed eth as trying to solve a problem that doesn't quite exist
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: the 'problem' the ethertards were (and are) trying to 'solve', is bitcoin.
snsabot: (asciilifeform) 2020-10-22 asciilifeform: they were/are simply an instrument of the 'shell game' built into ethereum. primarily to complicate the matter of answering q's e.g. 'how much coin is there?' 'to whom does this-here coin belong?' but also to help in organizing 'jam tomorrow' mechanized chumpatrons of all types.
thimbronion: Actually am looking forward to thestringpullers responses.
thimbronion: With bitcoin and crypto currencies I always have to be very careful as to whether I'm not getting something because it's dumb, like eth, or because I'm dumb like diff eq.
asciilifeform: thimbronion: fortunately there's a very simple shortcut which worx 100% : learn to recognize the usg shills (and their useful idiots) , the pyramid artists and ~their~ useful idiots, etc. then you don't actually need to get to the bottom of how 100% of the moving parts in the bullshit schemes work.
asciilifeform: (esp. since they'll change, regularly, on a whim of the perpetrator, like eth changed in answer to dao implosion)
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: In The Wire you start with an exploration of the drug war and its obvious consequences. But then each season you climb the ladder to see the same pattern. I think the key takeaway then in 2008 was the same in 2014 with MtGox "was it merely one component of a larger chumpatron?"
thestringpuller: One interesting scenario explored was that of "Hamsterdam"; it obviously lowered the homicide count, but was incompatible with the larger chumpatron. Given Baltimore is in worse shape than when that show concluded one must wonder "are the homicides by design?"
asciilifeform: hamsterdam??
asciilifeform: thimbronion: upstack, see also elsewhere re subj.
snsabot: (trilema) 2018-06-12 asciilifeform: matters technical and political are not in reality separable.
snsabot: (trilema) 2018-07-22 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: one of the things that never ceases to fascinate me re physics crackpots, is how rarely they grasp the sheer 'unreasonable effectiveness' of making ~political~ , rather than simply technical, cuts . ( observe, i dun need to read , much less attempt to individually refute, errything the strings people shit out -- for the same reason i dun need to read gavin's code . )
snsabot: (trilema) 2018-11-29 asciilifeform: zx2c4: weren't you here last yr for a 'the technical cannot be separated from the political' and 'if program+all accessories doesn't Fit In Head, it is garbage, not proof' thread ?
asciilifeform not seen the film
asciilifeform: linked description seems to match ~actual~ bmore, such as the 1 asciilifeform visited on numerous occasions, however.
thestringpuller: baltimore seems like a place you escape, not visit
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: asciilifeform was shopping for affordable (5fig!) buildings there.
thestringpuller: i imagine even the condemned crack houses go for 6 figures now
asciilifeform: now yes. this was in '16-17.
thestringpuller: glad asciilifeform returned safe and not full of bullet holes
snsabot: (trilema) 2016-07-02 asciilifeform: it wasn't condemned
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: you may find odd, but molestation by orcs was not on asciilifeform's list of gripes re the visits.
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: do you recall ethereum smart ponzi?
thestringpuller: After rereading your chumpatronics engineering article reminded me of guy I saw on Coffeezilla's show. This guy was essentially addicted to Ponzi schemes. Perhaps some chumps choose the chumpatron as their vice?
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