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(ossasepia) diana_coman: jurov sure: look at what eulora has developed during the interval and compare with what the foundation has developed during the same interval; for all the *more people involved* and more public support, at that.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: to me so far it seems it's indeed a matter of "jurov lost those funds therefore the foundation's funds are to be kept too"; people will have to decide for themselves, as always.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jurov there's no tmsr anymore indeed; you can certainly do as you choose and thank you for stating your mind on this matter.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jurov the fine was basically for choice of BingoBoingo, nothing to do with hiatus; but at any rate, I'd say this is in the end not the core issue for the foundation at all (unless you mean that therefore the foundation funds are to be kept - is this it?); the core is a. the role of the foundation b. the intended role of donations
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw yes, there wasn't anything about "protection"; and indeed, I took the whole as = tmsr ; now if I understand it correctly, jurov sees somehow the foundation entirely apart from the rest in there
(ossasepia) diana_coman: reading through that declaration it strikes me that it actually even further binds the foundation as *a part of tmsr* so even more so ending when tmsr ends, uhm.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jurov listen, I gather that you personally are happy that tmsr is no more; that is fine; I also gather that you personally lost those funds; that however does not make it some tmsr-rule and I provided one counterexample.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: and no, as far as I know Mike_C got his funds back after prolongued hiatus no problem (and even lost out because of BingoBoingo's handling of the matter, not because of the absence)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: huh? according to your own statement you purposefully "kept a low profile" so it's not just some hiatus or how do you mean?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: I hadn't realised that the role of the foundation as outreach for tmsr and the intended role of the donations were unclear/disputed so I haven't prepared with full links on the matter; I suppose this becomes needed though now, for the full record if for nothing else.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jurov well, you tuned off and refused to be an active part so what can I say there.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: this easy bit aside though, the core uncovered seems to be related to a. the foundation as a non-tmsr entity b. what the donations were for
(ossasepia) diana_coman: or whatever else, for that matter.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jurov uhm, not sure I follow there the link you are making; to start with the easier bits to clarify - the taxation was never paid because never "bitcoin realised", sure; as trinque often and correctly noted, tmsr was essentially broke and never managed to develop commerce
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jurov it's well known, I don't go for any "should", lol; nothing ever "should"; there is however the uneasy squaring of this "oh, tmsr closed down so now we keep the money and figure out something to do with it"
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jurov - how do you mean a successor entity? so the money was donated for tmsr outreach; tmsr closes down and the money was never used for its intended purpose; so then you mean it should have... what, found some other entity for which to outreach?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: re 1. in that sense people always self-select, sure; even customers in a shop will self-select, not like you go and force them into the shop or something; there is however still some profile that you can tell you are aiming for, at the very least
(ossasepia) diana_coman: how is that similar to a tmsr-outreach foundation endowed with funds meant for *outreach of tmsr* , I don't follow
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jurov huh? how do you see the 2 similar? eulora is owned by s.mg which is a mpex listed entity with funds raised via IPO
(ossasepia) diana_coman: because it may intend to provide services and infrastructure but whether it intends to or not, it certainly and inescapably *will* provide the historical link with *all* there is to it, positive and negative.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jurov - there are some questions well before that really: 1. to whom does the foundation intend to provide services and infrastructure (since that goes a long way in defining those anyway and yes, it matters more than what exact etc) 2. how does the foundation intend to fund itself 3. what does the history of the foundation and its association mean/how is that handled
(ossasepia) diana_coman: not sure how to put this clearer, hm.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jurov no, I didn't take it as an insinuation; my point was that the characteristic you mentioned is one of individuals, not something of foundation's, hence my trouble in figuring out just what is there.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jurov while I was never part of the foundation, I don't think I ever followed "cool" feature development anywhere; and I doubt jwrd will go for cool features, seeing how they *need* to go for useful features or die, can't have better reason than that.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jurov - I am trying to understand what it is that you mean to do - not in detail but as approach and especially the causes at the root of it all because it's those that decide in the end what happens further "in detail" as you put it
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jurov - if you don't mind, what is it that you consider valuable in the foundation as it currently stands?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: also, atm from what I understand, ben vulpes is not active; does he intend to become active co-chair for this re-defined foundation?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: but otherwise - jfw and dorion as part of their jwrd work have an offline wallet and jfw plans to publish that as far as I know; not sure what is the foundation's claim/space otherwise since it was created initially as part of tmsr outreach really, not just library of code; that closed down, the foundation now aims to still be what exactly, an actual foundation? do you plan to raise funds and all
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jurov ah, not considerations; I read that as "there is this software too" so I was surprised that the said software parts exist already and I had no idea about them; it turns out you meant them as plans, so that makes sense and no surprise;
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jurov I am not sure I see what this "the foundation" is, to go on; and if I stretch the definition of being to include those many years when the "status quo" as you put it just kept going, I don't think I want it to go on like that, no.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jurov what is it that you'd have to see just die
(ossasepia) diana_coman: I can imagine that indeed; and ftr I'm quite sorry about how it all turned out for mod6 indeed.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jurov well, it was possible for years already so pretty long term, I'd say
(ossasepia) diana_coman: from the same logs, I had read also that jurov had only "meddled a bit with trb mempool and then tuned out" so I admit that I'm at a loss now re 1. that block explorer and wallet 2. why/how/in what exactly is jurov all of a sudden interested again
(ossasepia) diana_coman: because following the logs of #therealbitcoin, I saw stan's statement that trb should be left as it is, further reiterated in response to jfw's questions.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jurov - is this bitcoin wallet and block explorer some parts/bits that you/ben did while out of the loop as you say or do you mean they are first/next on the list of to do or how?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: for the logs and ftr, TMSR as an organization did not at any point promote talking without doing; that some indulged in that is their own personal doing, not TMSR's.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jurov - if I understand this correctly, you mean that you want to focus on the trb codebase (or what is bitcoin codebase?) and otherwise the political part is implicit/by nature so not a direct concern; is this correct?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: the help page is updated too afaik
(ossasepia) diana_coman: usually the chan name is tripping people up
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jurov it's !!up #ossasepia jurov
(ossasepia) diana_coman: hm, so far I didn't really need that and kind of still finding my way around it; atm I've set it up on a remote machine and connecting to it from all sorts too so not exactly a very settled setup otherwise
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw so now that scrolling in yrc will be fixed by the end of this week - what else is in your shall-not-be-written-because-then-it-doesn't-count plan for this week?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: lol, that can't have been loud *enough* then
(ossasepia) diana_coman: ahaha - was anyone impressed by the out-loud complaints?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: or you complained louder and first so nobody else got a chance to add to it!! I see
(ossasepia) diana_coman: you did? as in complained about it to yourself or how?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: for that matter, I gather poor dorion took it as it was and never complained properly, huh; dorion - don't let the tech start pushing workarounds, software *can* be fixed, just...complain about it, loudly! lol
(ossasepia) diana_coman: hm, iirc you meant among other things to push yrc as the irc client to use for all jwrd clients; so dunno, are you going to go about suggesting them various workarounds for usability now?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw so... when?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: no need to wait for me or anything
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jurov you can voice yourself with deedbot.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: on a page I *want* all of them indeed; on a new subscription though not so sure.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: the wordpress setting is to my mind for showing on a page, not quite the same (nor really wordpress/blog's concern) as what "new subscription" might mean, hm.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: spyked oh, you mean the bot just takes as many entries as the blog shows on one page of feeds?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw the hand-cranked scrolling in yrc is awful, apparently there are lines that I just don't manage to get on screen with page up/down, at all, how is that even possible? I end up having to read the chan from the log instead, ugh.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/06/01/ossasepia-logs-for-Jun-2020/#1026616 - spyked, I was under the impression that new subscriptions get some "last 5" or similar initial start rather than "all new" since otherwise it would mean that every time one subscribes to a new blog they would get the full history of that blog dumped no matter how long? or what am I missing there?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: I don't yet know, hence my question; I'll wait for jurov to clarify.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: at any rate, "new world order" is quite lulzy indeed - if anything, it was as old as it gets, rather.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: or perhaps something else, in which case - what? I genuinely can't see a third option so far.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jurov - is "The Foundation does not require grandiose political aspirations such as a new world order to stay steward of bitcoin technology and V tool." just a jibe or do you literally mean that the foundation is dedicated to apolitical stewardship of "bitcoin technology and V tool"?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: making the summary since 2014 or what, lolz
(ossasepia) diana_coman: spyked did feedbot spit out the *full* category feed in #eulora now?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: well, unloved by its owner, since others seem to like it even better but ...what can that do for it.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: poor unloved blog
(ossasepia) diana_coman: let the consonants multiply!
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw well, I'd be writing them, not pronouncing them! and think ye of whaaack and others too!
(ossasepia) diana_coman: spyked in there where? in #eulora there should be also trilema/smg category
(ossasepia) diana_coman: spyked ah, no worries
(ossasepia) diana_coman: spyked also, with the monthly log articles, it works actually to have feedbot announce again in #eulora too - preferably only the coding/eulora category, is that possible?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw - that tab-completion please (or I'll end up typing all combinations of j f w)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: hm, spyked, did feedbot stop announcing my blog's feed in here?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque the way I read whaack's plans there, it seems to me it's not really cr economy that he banks on - if anything, CR "unspoiled and free haven" appeal; do you see that tarnished/lowering somehow?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: lobbes alright.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack what is of most interest to you?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: hm, I am not aware of any decent sub-line diff tool, no.
(ossasepia) diana_coman will be back tomorrow
(ossasepia) diana_coman: anyways, I shall conclude here my opportunistic hike through the internetz at large as it's quite enough for one day, lol
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: apparently! the weeds of hacking in thy garden!!
(ossasepia) diana_coman: as to the "shorter time preference" (which is in there, too!), it's more of a must than a preference when all one has are leaves to pay with - either now or watch them be worthless tomorrow, sure.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: joerodgers: why not give directly the actual link of your blog? ftr it's at least way more readable than that words thing.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: in principle, though I doubt in practice
(ossasepia) diana_coman: huh, that "Links" thing reminds me of fain
(ossasepia) diana_coman: joerodgers: oh, hey, is this illustration your work?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: joerodgers: what's with the splitting of "paragraphs" by count of lines (3 lines each, apparently) rather than by meaning? It reminds me of those housewives bent on "tidying the bookcase" by sorting once and for all those pesky books by size, wtf does content matter!!
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: ahaha, it's ok, nobody reads it anyway
(ossasepia) diana_coman: for balance-of-twisting, may I suggest it changes to "if you find WORDS unhelpful but appreciated, Bitoin donations are unnecessary but appreciated." ?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: ftr, I read 5 times by now this "If you find WORDS helpful, Bitcoin donations are unnecessary but appreciated." and I'm still in wonder at its twists.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: ah, no worries; can wait until tomorrow too, not a problem at all.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: joerodgers: what is "low time preference"?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: joerodgers: bitcoiners as in people-actually-involved-in-bitcoin would rather read the words of those past bitcoiners eg on their blogs, don't you think? I know there is this old model of "editor and curating" etc but uhm, that was also in a rather different context
(ossasepia) diana_coman: joerodgers: for the better..of what? heh
(ossasepia) diana_coman: if anything, ~everyone drowns in *too much* (and most of it rehash, just like e.g https://bitcoinwords.github.io/economics-has-lost-its-way - and it's really just one example picked at random, not specifically meant to single it out in anyway)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: or how do you even perceive that "there's too little and in danger of being lost omg",huh
(ossasepia) diana_coman: you know, leaving aside all the ??? I get visiting that bitcoinwords site (unicodes I suppose) and all the lol of x minutes to read and even a lot more else... what exactly makes those words there worth reading in the first place? it's really not a problem of too *few* words otherwise on bitcoin (or on anything else really)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: joerodgers: what does it mean "interested in the impact of bitcoin on us all"? I suppose the Bitcoin category on trilema.com provides ample discussion and commentary on that from a rather authoritative source
(ossasepia) diana_coman: lack of knowledge is most easily fixed though.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: joerodgers: lol, I see, the very constructive and helpful indeed.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: joerodgers: well, tradeoffs are there to ~everything; the question is more 1. why do you want to pour work into something that apparently can't ever even pay for own hosting 2. what does free in that context actually mean ie how exactly are you in fact paying for the service there since you do not pay for it with money (because pay for it you still do)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: joerodgers: ahaha, mind giving me the gist of that feedback?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: joerodgers: heh, the way towards "a profound writer" is to look a bit more at what things like "free" mean in their context
(ossasepia) diana_coman: joerodgers: why on github.io?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: re intimidating - I get it, but the only cure for that is simply to interact (and worry less about the outcome as such)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: joerodgers: do you write anywhere on the web/do you have any website/blog?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: (and then if it works, I'll therefore have to hire an army of whiners to get jfw to do some work!!111)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: you do realise that if I switch, then in all likelihood, I'll whine and whine until you do get that tab-completion done, right?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: a bit like everywhere else meeting new people - talking helps best; what /why do you find interesting re bitcoin or what's your link to it?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: joerodgers: how was/is reading around here?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: !!up #ossasepia joerodgers
(ossasepia) diana_coman: rather than forever wasting time on the hesitation to ...admit it because in practice it's anyway what it is.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: so ditch the "should" directly and see what happens?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: unrelated - that "plan" took me all of 10 minutes to write down for you; what do you usually polish so much at a plan to take 0.8 hour and still not be done with it?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: I guess now I got yrc working even on 2.6.6, I'll just have to switch, huh
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: indeed, no (n)curses either; and yes, tsk was to deedbot
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: ftr it was the neat layout of yrc that got me to look at that bit_length thing a bit more
(ossasepia) diana_coman: well, alternatively it may be called "messing about with python and irc for one hour" but anyways
(ossasepia) diana_coman: huh, I basically "backported an irc client, in one hour!!11"
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: well, not that I *expected* it was that but ...such said the docs, why would I argue with them.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: no worries; now I realised I should give it another go on 2.16 after the fix to that bit_length, huh
(ossasepia) diana_coman: !!up #ossasepia yrctest
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: looks like that, darn; thanks for pointing it out, it'll have to wait until I get to look at that again.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: anyways, the tiny bit that started this thread quite went already longer than the genesis-change example itself has legs; so it can certainly take a rest.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: linking it to what likes actually mean ie habit and existing adaptation, it's hopefully quite clear why the need to change is unlikely to come that much from what one likes, huh.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: such as that indeed; such as pushing towards or away from what seems unpleasant/uncomfortable
(ossasepia) diana_coman: come to think of it, there's something in there linking even to that older question re systematic curiosity, hm.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: pretty much; the part worth also saying in clear is that whether you push it towards some "has to" or quite push it at all times the opposite is your choice too.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: the system comes in handy once the current efficiency level is not enough for yourself anymore; whether that's because there are more important/annoying things than fit your mental space or whether it's because the available time is less than the work you absolutely find you must do or whether it's for any other possible reason matters less
(ossasepia) diana_coman: (this is not to say the change-genesis is now some very urgent or must-do-now thing, just in case it's not clear)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: well yes, the list itself does not change the above; it goes the other way around ie only when you have (for whatever reason) enough of the above, only then the list (or other device/system) will come in handy too
(ossasepia) diana_coman: it works, I know; not very efficiently, but it sort of works while there is enough slack otherwise, indeed.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: so either it's then basically taking up mental space or otherwise it's in the category ~"if it's truly important, I'll surely get annoyed with it enough to do it in the end!"
(ossasepia) diana_coman: do you keep some sort of list and add it there? or make a note mentally (in principle; aka if it doesn't fade away, it might get done)? or do you drop whatever it was and do it? none of those?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: speaking of remembering stuff, hm; dorion any chance you'll still write that hunting article or what happened to it anyway?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: so what happens in cases like this (ie with this sort of reminder coming unexpectedly)?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: and then publishing that wallet?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: what's thawing blog-side?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: so please do it then, starting today with yesterday's summary so it's a full week by Friday and then there's something to have a look at.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: I got that, no worries there.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: ideally daily but literally take max 15 minutes to put it together (can even be as a comment at last article of yours or something) so at the end of the week it's there and therefore the "plan" whatever it was is clear enough; is that doable?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: great to hear your beginner training client started, that's good news anyway.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: tbh considering the trouble you seemed to have in cutting stuff out of the plan because "it should be there", I suspect at least some significant part of the "can't follow a plan" stems from that really - it's not that you can't follow a plan, it's more that you can't bring yourself to plan for what you'd follow rather than for what "should be"
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: hm, better curious than down about something like that, it's not unchangeable nor without some causes; anyways, how about leaving the plans be for now and draw up instead the summary of the week/day to see what "plan" emerges out of the free-form
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: what's on the agenda for this week in the end?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: the first would be the definition I normally agree with; and in this sense I wasn't his student; I'll believe you if you say (some of) those teaching now analysis there, have been.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: (and I suppose ~all in the same year as me could by the above token claim they were his students, but uhm)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: not sure otherwise anyway what does "his students" mean in the sense that yes, there was that 1 course so I was his student too; for all my preference for the course, it was nevertheless a very, very small part of the Maths learnt in those years so not really sure if it's all that appropriate otherwise to claim "his student"
(ossasepia) diana_coman: ah, he certainly was already quite old when I met him, yes; that was though ~2002 so possibly not yet retired; re those teaching analysis/anything else there nowadays, I am not really up to date.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: spyked: ah, I'm sure research wise he had contributions and otherwise the well known textbooks/workbooks at the very least certainly stand for "built"; what I meant was specifically at UPB - maybe it was just my very limited understanding of the whole environment at the time but he was very little visible other than that 1 course.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: spyked: you know, I had just found out about Stanasila and then saw your article and thought it's too much coincidence not to be about him too; other than the course we had with him though, I could never quite figure out if/what he managed to build otherwise in that hole, to me he seemed rather one of the few exceptions to be grateful for.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: joerodgers: there you go; you should be able to voice yourself now, see deedbot's help page
(ossasepia) diana_coman: !!v 76F4168158928BD1BA9D369F55A353572E71255DA919C7B6AB7C848F1DAC367F
(ossasepia) diana_coman: billymg: no rush with this as such; it was a wtf-moment but admiteddly, out-of-disk-space is not an usual state anyway and generally gets sorted before it causes this sort of wtf.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: billymg: uhm, I didn't check specifically; there was though nothing special running at the time (the script that had gotten the drive full had finished anyway)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: I don't know why did they mess them up so much
(ossasepia) diana_coman has always had trouble with categories & wordpress
(ossasepia) diana_coman: it's true that I never managed to run out of space on a blog-running machine but then again, this is kind of a special-situation-machine by all measures.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: at any rate, I think it's a lousy way this is done and I can't quite understand why would it be done differently than all the rest or wtf does it need now disk space for
(ossasepia) diana_coman: billymg: I didn't dig that deep so unfortunately I can't help you there much; basically I checked everything in the db including that all had the correct parents etc; I checked that it was even as it had been before; then I noted that discrepancy; so looked around at what *else* could be the trouble
(ossasepia) diana_coman: funnily enough (and the ~only clue I had that something funny was going on) was that the whole interface otherwise correctly named the *default* category in other places (eg where it warns that deleting a category does not delete the articles)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: they were not showing anywhere, neither in the admin panel, nor in the contributor/writer (ie non-admin user) panel, nor on the www (all articles were shown as Uncategorized)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: ftr, nothing was lost/wrong at any time in the db or anything - it was at all times a matter of display, but ugh.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: anyways, space is now plenty, should not run out of it again either, so categories are showing again all fine
(ossasepia) diana_coman: huh, what the issue was: apparently the UI relies on a temporary file to gather the list of categories to show; and the VM was low on disk space (unrelated - I ran some other stuff there) and so...this nuked the categories from showing...
(ossasepia) diana_coman really does not want to go about comparing the backups, ugh
(ossasepia) diana_coman: billymg: do you know where exactly does the UI get the categories /what does it need other than the stuff in the db?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: to make it even weirded, they *are* in the db, ugh.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: neah, I have to bring them back; only now I wonder just when did I manage to nuke them.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: did anyone notice -when did the categories there vanish?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: this is a new one
(ossasepia) diana_coman: but hm, now looking at it, wtf happened to the categories on yh
(ossasepia) diana_coman: dorion: lol, at writing, before publishing; that has got to be the shortest possible review of 2 weeks worth of time that I ever saw !
(ossasepia) diana_coman: no problem at all
(ossasepia) diana_coman: congrats joerodgers
(ossasepia) diana_coman: dorion: yo, welcome back but *slow down"! lolz
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: so then - plan sorted: take up gardening!
(ossasepia) diana_coman: bots answer each to their own prefix, not just randomly to any text
(ossasepia) diana_coman: joerodgers: see deedbot's help page, you need to use that !!register command
(ossasepia) diana_coman: heh, don't take words to mean what a first glance might suggest, it's generally not a very good strategy anyway; the canonical ref for the WoT is the article on trilema.com
(ossasepia) diana_coman: joerodgers: do you know what the WoT is?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: joerodgers: if you register a key with deedbot, I'll rate you and you'll then be able to voice yourself.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: !!key joerodgers
(ossasepia) diana_coman: !!up #ossasepia joerodgers
(ossasepia) diana_coman: joerodgers uhm, just leave it connected somewhere, it's not a problem.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: I guess at a stretch, since the offending vpatches are identified, one will just script the "find the matching hashes", not like it's a big deal; only I'd rather not have it on the side, if it can be avoided
(ossasepia) diana_coman: bvt: so maybe not go directly for precise loop analysis then - what are the less-costly-but-still-better-error-message options there?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: whaack: reports seem to work not-bad for guitar practice at least; are you sure you don't want to do anything else at all?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: cruciform: how's the moving going?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: _joerodgers: as jfw said really, there's quite a lot to both logs and, especially, context to make sense of it all; it tends to help/work easier for you if you actively engage though so maybe come around to talk one day from 7pm UTC when I'm more usually around; if you don't have voice, just ask for it in pm (me or someone else who is voiced)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: take up gardening! heh
(ossasepia) diana_coman: ... *against* both options so I'd rather go for the smallest and least costly (from all povs) change tbh - can it spit the name of the file + vpatches involved instead of just shouting "loop"? and to mark this at vtree as well instead of just silently doing nothing?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: bvt: heh, that barfed looking at the code already sounds to me measurement enough to give it some more thinking at the very least before pushing it as part of the main trunk; and the more I think about it, the more it seems to me that the main problem is for now one of better error message first of all rather than necessarily one of "should press it anyway"; I can still make the case for both options but I can also make the case ...
(ossasepia) diana_coman: in my experience the correction tends to come *very* swiftly if/when someone gets that sort of "higher in the chain of causes" ideas but it's true that some people are better at ignoring corrections than others.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: possibly; it does seem that keeping-in-the-very-real-with-all-its-limitations is a relatively difficult/rare achievement nowadays, I'll certainly grant that.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: generically like that - the short-burst overexertion that may be needed to overcome a block; to the extent that there is space and time afterwards to decompress and that short-lived intense burst was exactly what was required, it fits.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: while I can see at least *some* angle to that however many in tmsr, I advance the possible thought that "hubris" might not be all there is to it; at times it might even have its usefulness!
(ossasepia) diana_coman: trinque: heh, what set you so hardly against "hubris"?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: Joe65: hello, what brings you here?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: nor is everything equally important as everything else, certainly
(ossasepia) diana_coman: well, nothing is infinite anyway.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: billymg: it's not as much about all the things that aren't seen/thought of but rather a very hard "all the things" (hence, with the implicit "whether seen/though of or not, makes no difference, it's *all* or might as well be none"
(ossasepia) diana_coman: hm, it turns out I have some irl unexpecteds to sort out today, apparently this weekend is not for that irc
(ossasepia) diana_coman: what I mean is: how much slower/how much of a problem and therefore is it the best approach? perhaps it's simply enough to give a clearer error message (e.g. which file is the trouble) and let operator sort it out; btw the *press* at least gave the message but iirc a vtree /antecedent command only did...nothing, silently, which is really confusing.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: bvt: what's the cost of this change you've made, anyway? esp on large v-trees, does it make *everything* slower since now it has to go through all vpatches at all times?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: ... some thought
(ossasepia) diana_coman: bvt: oh hey, that is quick! honestly, I am even still mulling over re what is exactly the correct approach there; the main trouble was one of confusing message since "loop" in my head meant full state rather than single-file-state (hence essentially made impossible by a properly updated manifest file, in itself); possibly at least a warning would be reasonable, but it might really make more sense to talk the matter through & give it ...
(ossasepia) diana_coman: anyway, today I need to go in ~5 minutes; I'll be back tomorrow.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: and yeah, comment gets one out of it - but the main issue was figuring out *where* the exact revert was
(ossasepia) diana_coman: even using it with unfinished code, ugly code, whatever-code, omg.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: jfw: indeed; and lol @ coarse error of pilotage; though possibly I'm "abusing" V since I actually use it for code control instead of saving it only for special occasions or something
(ossasepia) diana_coman: huh, I think I actually now why - the newer vpatch reverses the changes in *one* file; bvt - did you intend it to claim that it's a loop if ONE file's changes are reversed by a vpatch? I guess it does raise the potentially ugly issue of manifest being a sort of "special" file since myeah, reversing that should not happen but the rest, hm.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: (sadly I can't quite pack the code itself as it's s.mg stuff and currently not public)
(ossasepia) diana_coman: there's no output at all otherwise to give a hint more directly as to what it chokes on, but it's rather weird
(ossasepia) diana_coman: ... if I try to press to this new last leaf, it fails with "Loop among vpatches" for those last 2 leaves - given that the manifest changes correctly, why /how is this possible?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: bvt: it seems I managed to confuse v.sh & co. in the most unexpected way: I have a nice linear v-tree that I press to its last leaf; then I to a new vpatch on top of that (ie with a new version of the code base); the vpatch looks perfectly fine, it's some 430 lines too, not huge, there IS a manifest file that adds one line on top of the previous one (that is as expected corresponding to the previous leaf), all looks well; and then, ...
(ossasepia) diana_coman: makes sense to me
(ossasepia) diana_coman: sadly that's quite likely indeed; but ah, so good to have this finally sorted and off the blog's to-do list.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: clearly billymg's mpwp-fu is much higher than mine
(ossasepia) diana_coman: I still can't quite figure out why are then some options in db and some not (but still checked) and moreover why posts_per_page but ALSO nopaging (or what's the difference between nopaging vs posts_per_page=-1) but anyways
(ossasepia) diana_coman: yaaay, works! thank you billymg !
(ossasepia) diana_coman: hm; I would have thought that has a value anyway, not like it's ever empty as such but let's see
(ossasepia) diana_coman: a select distinct option_name doesn't list it at all, huh
(ossasepia) diana_coman: billymg: in the db though in the option table I can see the posts_per_page but...not the posts_per_archive_page ?
(ossasepia) diana_coman: billymg: hm, I'll try it; I did see the check in query.php but couldn't figure out why it wasn't enough, so let's see if this does it.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: !!up #ossasepia Joe65
(ossasepia) diana_coman: there probably is a more wordpress-friendly (as opposed to my rather *unfriendly*) method to do it.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: I admit that I'm running out of patience with all the php ball in there.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: ... setting pagination to none also nukes the limit, huh
(ossasepia) diana_coman: http://ossasepia.com/2020/05/03/ossasepia-logs-for-may-2020/#1025653 - so hm, I can certainly nuke the pagination from archive queries but at least my method (hooking up a function to the parse_query action thing) turns out to *also* mess up the recent comments/article widgets *despite* supposedly applying the change only to queries that are archives; apparently the recent comments and recent articles are archives too and moreover, ...
(ossasepia) diana_coman: I've added the search widget too, seems to work sort of ok as an overall search; while I'm sure it could be made to work way better, I don't think I'll find time for that very soon.
(ossasepia) diana_coman: I do not plan to update the postgres dump; it's there for historical reasons and so it will stay as it is now.
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