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(asciilifeform) zx2c4: will investigate
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: does #pest live on pest? i guess i should check out this proto...
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: /join #pest doesn't do it
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: woah you actually did it
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: trying to get this vDSO getrandom() stuff wired up
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: knee deep in linux's mm/ at the moment
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: whatwhatimhereimhere
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: nothing? rather, I'm amused about those who fetishize it
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: phf: i just read you saying, "asciilifeform: easiest crypto is to mail somebody a clone of ssd with random bits on it, and then one time pad it for a lifetime of alice to bob communication" and was idly musing how various internet types tend to think this is The Ultimate Way that all crypto should aspire to
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: asciilifeform: haha really? no i dont remember that
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: phf: but back on planet reality... chacha20 is fine...
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: phf: it's funny to me how internet crazies are always so attracted to "The Holy One Time Pad". I guess because it's simple enough that they can understand it and offers "information theoretic security".
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: Oh nose... I guess that was somewhere along the road of losing his mind or something
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: Mirceaaaaa come back to life and save this channel
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: Hahaha except money
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: Good old debianrng
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: asciilifeform: linus has "reinvented" the cycle counter jitter stuff on linux
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: asciilifeform: Yea... I think most people generally figure their OS rng is "good enough" -- that interrupts and disk seek times and mouse movements and whatever else combine together to do something passable
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: that's a cool project
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: At the very least, linux 5.18 now hashes all rdrand values, which removes one kind of backdoor potential
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: in terms of _hardware_ now a days people who want that just use rdrand or a tpm or whatever and call it "good enough", even if you cant audit it and it might be backdoored etc
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: for the last few months ive been fixing the linux kernel rng, and obviously nobody with money cares about that
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: i'd say generally that it's not a terrific situation, but i do intend to keep freesoftwaring for as long as i feasibly can, and hopefully some luck will come my way at some point
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: asciilifeform: at the beginning much more than now. in the early days, vpn companies thought it was a good marketing thing to do. now that's mostly passed and things are a lot tougher. your loper-os.org blurb seems to have some truth in it in my experience
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: i'm still doing it "full time" and just sort of living on whatever i can get from whomever - companies, non profit grants, etc
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: asciilifeform: indeed the project is massive but no bitcoinbenefactor has swept in with the millions
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: Ahhh back when I panhandled and mircea got angry
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: Yes, BTC address still the same on that page.
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: Happy to answer questions about that post if youve got any
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: shinohai: c'est moi !
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: I mean from freenode
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: And I guess you've got some convoluted mirroring bot scheme for the time being?
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: thanks for the welcome, whew
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: asciilifeform: i was futzing with baud rates when you sent me that link.
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: Did this survive the tempest?
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: gregorynyssa: ^
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: lots of changes of that variety
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: 2 files changed, 57 insertions, 84 deletions
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: for example...
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: its gotten larger in some ways, smaller in others, but basically no new features, and just refinements to algorithms
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: verisimilitude: hey, sorry, no problem. wasnt at my computer when you messaged earlier
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: verisimilitude: indeed, pretty gnarley. have since rewritten basically all of it... https://git.zx2c4.com/wireguard-freebsd/
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: ahh yes, formal methods skepticism because of too many computers and not enough chalk, iirc
(asciilifeform) zx2c4 waves to trinque
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: asciilifeform: hahh, makes sense
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: i vaguely recall being /kick'd from #t at somepoint for "panhandling" or something
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: every company expects for some other company to support the project. tragedy of the commons situation
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: heh, yea, it's gotten pretty big. the project lives on "donations" still, rather than charging people for things, which sadly means project success != financial success. so it goes with open source software.
(asciilifeform) zx2c4: Hi. Per /topic, I'm not a lurker/spamharvester. I'm Jason.
(trilema) zx2c4: My "nice post" remark wasnt sarcastic, if thats what youre responding to
(trilema) zx2c4: On my phone right now, woke up from a dream to see this, not sure if im still dreaming. Care to explain what's provoked your ire?
(trilema) zx2c4: that would be very surprising
(trilema) zx2c4: O_o really?
(trilema) zx2c4: aahh that trick
(trilema) zx2c4: Bitness - 1)
(trilema) zx2c4: Shift_Right((A and B) or ((A or B) and (not S)),
(trilema) zx2c4: or, rather, where can i see the implementation of W_Carry
(trilema) zx2c4: what's W_Carry?
(trilema) zx2c4: explicit carries everywhere, cool
(trilema) zx2c4: what you've described sounds good. im wondering if it's the result of comments, the result of just better organized code, or the result of some nice features of ada you're using
(trilema) zx2c4: carrys/overflows are handled explicitly or something?
(trilema) zx2c4: with good comments? or some nice feature of ada? or easy arithmetic youre implementing? or what?
(trilema) zx2c4: dennis probably wants those variables surrounded by ( )
(trilema) zx2c4: "unsigned less than"
(trilema) zx2c4: right. shows that the carrys work out without overflows given certain bounds on the input
(trilema) zx2c4: fair enough
(trilema) zx2c4: highschool contest math
(trilema) zx2c4: its a radix conversion
(trilema) zx2c4: it's not bad at all
(trilema) zx2c4: in the example above, its pretty easy to prove that by hand
(trilema) zx2c4: make sure i didnt so something immediately dumb
(trilema) zx2c4: i can quickly re-check my work
(trilema) zx2c4: in addition to reasoning about it
(trilema) zx2c4: later if im changing the code
(trilema) zx2c4: i save my z3 script so that
(trilema) zx2c4: rather than proof
(trilema) zx2c4: i think in crypto most people refer to it as "verification"
(trilema) zx2c4: more efficient paper
(trilema) zx2c4: and then think backwards in order to reason about its correctness later
(trilema) zx2c4: it also lets me try things super fast without thinking
(trilema) zx2c4: an additional check against my feeble human reasoning
(trilema) zx2c4: oh. yea, as i said, they're mostly just tools
(trilema) zx2c4: to do what
(trilema) zx2c4: no. they're mostly just tools
(trilema) zx2c4: that z3 script gives a little more assurance we didn't screw up the radix conversion here
(trilema) zx2c4: z3 is nice for things like
(trilema) zx2c4: (i learned algebra back in the day from a professor who wrote a haskell program to generate our textbook... presumably in your mind, my foundational education could not be more screwed up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Bayer )
(trilema) zx2c4: more seriously, if you're mostly after small computer programs to help you out when exploring a field but eventually do the proof by hand, z3 and sage wind up being super practical as day to day work horses
(trilema) zx2c4: it's convenient?
(trilema) zx2c4: well, as it turns out, coq had some amazing fallacy in its core code a few years back resulting in the ability to prove any statement true...
(trilema) zx2c4: i can see that critique of haskellism. endless intellectual masturbation (hello trilema?) that doesn't actually drive at any essential truth. there's a particular benefit in demanding truths remain small rather than large
(trilema) zx2c4: (coq is from the late 80s. its still in use, but i guess you could use the 2009 version...)
(trilema) zx2c4: I agree with you in spirit -- I think learning details of a proof enough that you have all of it in your head is a good pedagogical approach and gives you more mathematical agility as you progress forward. I just don't know about the ontological statement regarding the proof's validity
(trilema) zx2c4: hey i like good ol rs232 too
(trilema) zx2c4: just install Coq for heavens sake
(trilema) zx2c4: oh. then derive and macsyma surely are jokes
(trilema) zx2c4: haha, was just curious. i presume you're ancient
(trilema) zx2c4: a temporary buffer, rather than a rolling log
(trilema) zx2c4: so perhaps you prefer chalk and slate to paper then
(trilema) zx2c4: alright and you'd freely admit that when you write things down and solve intermediate lemmas, its often the case that by the time you get to the end, you don't have in the forefront of your brain the details of all intermediate steps anymore
(trilema) zx2c4: so this state of "being proven" for you -- it requires some kind of intuitive bullet shot from start to finish of all particulars of a certain logical progression? and any deference of that to outside tools (like paper, or intermediate results with forgotten details) ruin the intuition?
(trilema) zx2c4: Certainly a good pedagogical practice
(trilema) zx2c4: > At this time we will walk through the mechanics of our Karatsuba multiplier, so as to cement in the reader’s head the correctness of the routine, and lay groundwork for the optimization which is introduced in Ch. 12B.
(trilema) zx2c4: I more or less know the process involved but don't have all of the steps in my head. And as I wrote it down, I forget the details of previously written steps while working out current new steps. Yet I have faith in the process of writing it down systematically and having intermediate results from pages prior
(trilema) zx2c4: There are some things I could only prove if I had a paper
(trilema) zx2c4: I'm not even quite sure what you mean by "fitting"
(trilema) zx2c4: Oh, I mean, if you're willing to allow for anybody's head (as i presume you mean by mentioning ~whose~ head), then you just posit an incredible genius
(trilema) zx2c4: Write down thoughts from one day, use writings to your benefit the second day, and now you're two people in essence
(trilema) zx2c4: Hasn't writing always been a tool to expand our knowledge / understanding / assurance beyond a single mind?
(trilema) zx2c4: Not all math is as simple as Elements
(trilema) zx2c4: But it turns out now all things are so easily provable as such
(trilema) zx2c4: And so forth
(trilema) zx2c4: Simpler code that you can read in a sitting
(trilema) zx2c4: Well of course everyone prefers simpler proofs that fit in the head
(trilema) zx2c4: The proof, however, is gone from the C
(trilema) zx2c4: Which is pretty readable
(trilema) zx2c4: And then they're able to lower the F* down into C
(trilema) zx2c4: They write proofs in F* showing equivalence between some functional description and some imperative description
(trilema) zx2c4: Kind of an interesting project
(trilema) zx2c4: have you seen HACL*?
(trilema) zx2c4: that's a much larger accusation
(trilema) zx2c4: _organized campaign of sabotage_
(trilema) zx2c4: presumably the premise is something along the lines of complexity making things impossible?
(trilema) zx2c4: no i dont think so
(trilema) zx2c4: nice post
(trilema) zx2c4: hey ffa in ada
(trilema) zx2c4: rust's ownership and borrow semantics
(trilema) zx2c4: you dont think the borrow checker eliminates large classes of problems in a performant and somewhat elegant way?
(trilema) zx2c4: (reading)
(trilema) zx2c4: he did yea
(trilema) zx2c4: also i'm wondering what the usual trilema party line is on rust vs ada
(trilema) zx2c4: the second is wireguard needs funding for 2019 and thought this nation might help carry the weight
(trilema) zx2c4: the first is curosity
(trilema) zx2c4: one benign, one bothersome
(trilema) zx2c4: two things
(trilema) zx2c4: asciilifeform: hahahah
(trilema) zx2c4: yes & yes
(trilema) zx2c4: im surprised, by the way, to see asciilifeform's claim that communist romania was a picnic compared to modern america. why havent i ever experenced this?
(trilema) zx2c4: mircea_popescu: indeed
(trilema) zx2c4: clasic american quote
(trilema) zx2c4: yea sure
(trilema) zx2c4: oh that what you meant to say
(trilema) zx2c4: mircea_popescu: okay lets say there's a lot of history i dont know and that there are only new things in the world?
(trilema) zx2c4: (zx2c4 is a sophisticated chatbot but sometimes his neural network trainings are constrained)
(trilema) zx2c4: mircea_popescu: im really not parsing that sentence
(trilema) zx2c4: mircea_popescu: wait what? an mit dude had satoshi's bitcoins but you told him to get lost and now he's disappeared?
(trilema) zx2c4: asciilifeform: that quote from mircea_popescu you just pasted is interesting. i didnt know ceausescu did so much "political policing". i dont think i have any experience living in a society like that
(trilema) zx2c4: anyway, the only point im making with this extended debian example is that it's one thing to point to systemic societal shifts and tendencies. its quite another to make a claim about a particular individual and their deceptions. some people are deceptive. others aren't. but it's not a conclusion you can ever jump to trivially
(trilema) zx2c4: haha sorry
(trilema) zx2c4: you still believe he's lying. in that case, you're really asserting something quite big
(trilema) zx2c4: he denies it
(trilema) zx2c4: "NSA tell you to plant that bug?"
(trilema) zx2c4: on his deathbed, you ask him
(trilema) zx2c4: godfather to your first born child
(trilema) zx2c4: he's bestman at your wedding
(trilema) zx2c4: you become best buds, let's say
(trilema) zx2c4: then you get to know the guy,
(trilema) zx2c4: if you believe he's covering it up,
(trilema) zx2c4: [ftr, i have no idea who committed the bug or if theres even a commit log]
(trilema) zx2c4: or you can believe that he's covering things up
(trilema) zx2c4: now you can either believe that it was an honest mistake
(trilema) zx2c4: and then what?
(trilema) zx2c4: and he's like, "yea, im an idiot..."
(trilema) zx2c4: so then we go and ask dkg
(trilema) zx2c4: lets say you pull the commit log and you see that dkg@debian.org committed it
(trilema) zx2c4: re:null - its one thing to make claims about how systemic shifts happen. these are usually compelling arguments and interesting, and usually not conspiratorial but still relevant. but when you argue about a *particular* *conspiracy* -- "the debian bug was nsa sabotage" -- now there's a much harder argument to make, because you're talking about some individual @debian.org guy being complicit in one way or another, and he's a human
(trilema) zx2c4: mircea_popescu: oh. so. "the world doesnt care about the cool hackers on the internet, but only the assholes with prestigious positions." this has been a widely known complaint for a long time
(trilema) zx2c4: asciilifeform: whats a null hypthesis
(trilema) zx2c4: where resources funnel to those who do things most benignly?
(trilema) zx2c4: or do you think it's not actually directly targeted at you but rather a systemic thing
(trilema) zx2c4: doesnt it seem like an awful amount of work an effort just to make your work disappear and have people not talk to you?
(trilema) zx2c4: asciilifeform: arent there some commit logs that show where the debian bug comes from? i honestly cant remember
(trilema) zx2c4: and you think that since you've "thought your way out" of the paradigm, you're a threat and so the government has an interest in having people avoid you? kill socrates because he corrupts the young?
(trilema) zx2c4: "theyre trying to cover up the divisors!" isnt really a compelling reason
(trilema) zx2c4: why does the government have an interest in me hearing about nadia's work rather than your work?
(trilema) zx2c4: alright so im just wondering why you think nadia and alex's research falls into a category like that, when they're essentially drawing the same conclusions as your own work (even if they didnt release rawdata as you say etc)
(trilema) zx2c4: the conspiratorial element in all this would be if, like, the NSA secretly funds academic research in fields it knows to be nonsense, so as to waste the time of otherwise productive people?
(trilema) zx2c4: and certain topics lead to getitng large grants
(trilema) zx2c4: and certain topics help you keep academic positions
(trilema) zx2c4: yes, certain topics are trendy
(trilema) zx2c4: mircea_popescu: just trying to wrap my head around the NSA angle on all this. i get all the points about academics taking shortcuts or publishing nonsense. im not seeing the government conspiracy though
(trilema) zx2c4: well, rest assured, i've personally done a spooky amount of full disclosure stuff...
(trilema) zx2c4: would you be inclined to believe me or would this be evidence that i'm also in on the conspiracy
(trilema) zx2c4: (i actually havent, dont get too excited)
(trilema) zx2c4: ive seen the results and the data with my own eyes
(trilema) zx2c4: so what if i told you that
(trilema) zx2c4: the claims of those zmap papers certainly arent baseless, since you evidently have hit similar results?
(trilema) zx2c4: i dont really understand...
(trilema) zx2c4: i will ask them about this
(trilema) zx2c4: - academics released wordsonapdf without releasing raw data to support conclusions *because* they didn't actually do any research to generate said raw data
(trilema) zx2c4: - hanno being a journalist is a mere cover story for a more sinister secret government intelligence job he holds.
(trilema) zx2c4: - academics were paid or told by NSA to suppress certain conclusions from their publications.
(trilema) zx2c4: alright rereading, resynthesizing, adding a claim i understand you to be making too:
(trilema) zx2c4: 2&3? part 3 of item 2?
(trilema) zx2c4: what is the meaning of the first period in your message? parser error
(trilema) zx2c4: the concrete claims i understand you to be making are:
(trilema) zx2c4: - academics were paid or told by NSA to suppress certain conclusions from their publications.
(trilema) zx2c4: - they didnt actually do the research and wordsonapdf were entirely fabricated.
(trilema) zx2c4: - academics released wordsonapdf without releasing raw data to support conclusions
(trilema) zx2c4: the ones i have down are:
(trilema) zx2c4: so im still a bit fuzzy on the claims here
(trilema) zx2c4: mircea_popescu: i never even considered the possibility that was some kind of conspiratorial cover story. wow.
(trilema) zx2c4: he's a journalist who likes tinkering with fuzzers and stuff
(trilema) zx2c4: well boeck isnt an academic
(trilema) zx2c4: you're saying that nadia and alex and people got PAID by the nsa or somebody not to release certain results?
(trilema) zx2c4: mircea_popescu: woah okay so thats a whole other dimension
(trilema) zx2c4: s/studies/wordsinapdf/
(trilema) zx2c4: "They published studies but didnt publish the raw data to support their conclusions" - would this be an accurate summary?
(trilema) zx2c4: so to summarize your beef with these people,
(trilema) zx2c4: whereas academics never publish any code or data and usually just spill latex
(trilema) zx2c4: you guys are publishing the pure data
(trilema) zx2c4: ahh so the complaint is that
(trilema) zx2c4: https://zmap.io/paper.pdf looks like they did this in 2013 too
(trilema) zx2c4: halderman and heninger have worked together a lot
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